Question:

Well, not that I am an Indian giver (where did that saying come from?),

        well, from our own indian joe, of course:  one christmas eve, he was up on his rooftop, when along came a jolly old elf and a dozen far out reindeer.  they landed next to joe, startling him;  the white bearded old elf shouted, happily:  we are bringing gifts to you, sir, will you have them?  joe responded testily, "you can give me anything you please, but i’ll give you hell in a peach basket if you don’t get off my roof!         so ends the tale.  asadi, is that you….? wayno

Response:

OK, counselor, how do I get the "master copy" of the shirt to give to my local t-shirt person.  With your permission, of course, I would like to use it for next year’s Easter ‘Clave.  I have a feeling that most claves in the future will have the same print if you and Anthony give us permission, of course. Dave LaCourse

        no problem with me, louie; but anthony is muttering something about a buck per shirt commish…         wayno, who aint worried about college tuition.

Response:

<Lots of good stuff snipped It implies more…but in less words…"Fishing is Life, and Life is Short, so Don’t Waste it !"

Great post! George Adams

Response:

Tim, you’re freakin’ me out, man… Your internal struggles aside, I agree with the sentiment. Well said, and rightly spoken… A damned good shirt it is. I have three – though one of those is for my neighbor Dave "Garden Hackler" LaCourse (you’ll get it when I see you again – probably on our river in September)… Enjoy yours, Tim. And if by some stroke of fortune I see you on the street in Glenwood – RUN LIKE HELL! /daytripper ;^) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have worn my "Caroline Clave ‘99" shirt proudly now several times.  I wore it to work yesterday.   The more I have it, the more I think about it, the more I want to tell Wayne’s son that he has captured *it* perfectly. I mean *perfectly* as in there is no room for improvement. For one, the huge R.O.F.F. on the front…it *should* say, be that man. When I walk down the street here in Glenwood a visiting ROFFian could see it and introduce himself in person.  I want that, I really want that to happen. That some made the Clave, some didn’t, some wouldn’t.  But would wear the shirt, or understand the culmination of and importance of this new technology as we shift milleniums.  Brought together on an electron plane we have become friends in a way new to mankind, new in all ways to our evolution.  "R.O.F.F." in huge letters.  We recognize this. We are proud. A very, very important moment that we’re all experiencing in *our* lives. Perfection. But even more…the phrase…"Fishing is Life, Don’t Waste it", *is* ‘perfect’. Coupled with the youthful idealism of a child drawn innocent rendition of a trout makes it (to the continued chagrin of Maclean’s Mentor) "even more perfect". I struggled with it at first, I admit. "Fishing is Life". At first I thought of obssessive, compulsive greed behavior transmitted in this message, as in "screw the kids, screw the checkbook, screw the environment, I’m going fishing every day of my compulsive screwed up life". But this is more like "Fishing is Too Important to me and I’m out of balance, Sick, about it in fact".  Not the elegent, simpler…."Fishing is Life". No… Fishing *is* life.  The act of fishing, a fisherman, alive in the world, fishing, it is life. It is life. It can be no other thing.  Regardless of any other connotation or metaphor for fishing, it most certainly *is* life. There can be no doubt. "Don’t waste it". Perfect. This is not a statement of "Catch and Release", "Catch and Kill" or "Catch and Count" it’s *whatever it is. *DON’T WASTE IT*.  Catch one, quit and eat it.  Catch several and release them carefully, but *savor* them, *savor* them.  Do NOT waste it.  What better possible statement of conservation, of "Wasting Life" can be said ? It implies more…but in less words…"Fishing is Life, and Life is Short, so Don’t Waste it !" "R.O.F.F. – Caroline Clave ‘99 – Fishing is Life (Youth) Don’t Waste It" I’d certainly like to meet the Harrison’s.  *THAT’S* for damned sure. Way to go Anthony. Way to go Wayno. Way to go ROFF. Your Pal,

Response:

day tripper writes accurately and poetically: <<Tim, you’re freakin’ me out, man… Your internal struggles aside, I agree with the sentiment. Well said, and rightly spoken… Hear, hear.  Could not agree more, Dave.  In fact, I think the Eastern Clave next year will use the same "A. Harrison print", with a different location/date.  What say you all? <<A damned good shirt it is. I have three – though one of those is for my neighbor Dave "Garden Hackler" LaCourse (you’ll get it when I see you again – probably on our river in September)… Well, not that I am an Indian giver (where did that saying come from?), but I gave you my *only* clave t-shirt.  I thought I had another one, but I must have left it in NC.  So, I will see you on the river with your generous offer, sir.  I would have gone to my grave keeping silent about my loss, but since you have *three*, Dave LaCourse

Response:

OK, counselor, how do I get the "master copy" of the shirt to give to my local t-shirt person.  With your permission, of course, I would like to use it for next year’s Easter ‘Clave.  I have a feeling that most claves in the future will have the same print if you and Anthony give us permission, of course. Dave LaCourse

Response:

Well said that man. I am also the proud owner of the aforementioned piece of piscatorial apparel, thanks to the good offices of Mr Harrison. It is just about the most valuable item in my whole fishing collection, but not in terms of money, depicting as it does very many things, much of what you said Tim, and a lot more besides. Maybe one day I will actually get to meet some of you, and that would be very nice, but in the meantime I wear the shirt occasionally, and imagine fishing places like Hazel creek, or hiking up a mountain stream with a few good friends. Getting amiably inebriated on the porch of a log cabin somewhere and discussing C&R vs. C&K in the flesh, singing silly songs, eating weird food that no civilised person would entertain, (grits ???), regularly checking the meniscus on the communal whisky bottle with Wolfgang maybe, and arguing over how many drinks are left in it, and whose turn it is to open the next one,  fishing with miniscule flies for gigantic fish, gigantic flies for miniscule fish, and lots and lots of other things too. Amazing what a simple thing like a t-shirt can conjure up, sort of a cotton version of Aladdin’s lamp. ROFF really is a quite amazing place. Tight lines ! Mike Connor

Response:

… Brought together on an electron plane we have become friends in a way new to mankind, new in all ways to our evolution.  "R.O.F.F." in huge letters.  We recognize this. We are proud. …

Gawd, I love it when you get on a roll. There just ain’t no disguisin’ the camaraderie of ROFF in the face of a post from the heart. Thanks, Timbo. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

On certain occasions the statements from Glenwood echo and reverberate… On any occasion I’m proud to say Tim is my friend….this being one. way to go bud. –Walt (who will be wearing his tee proudly this weekend) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have worn my "Caroline Clave ‘99" shirt proudly now several times.  I wore it to work yesterday.   The more I have it, the more I think about it, the more I want to tell Wayne’s son that he has captured *it* perfectly. I mean *perfectly* as in there is no room for improvement. For one, the huge R.O.F.F. on the front…it *should* say, be that man. When I walk down the street here in Glenwood a visiting ROFFian could see it and introduce himself in person.  I want that, I really want that to happen. That some made the Clave, some didn’t, some wouldn’t.  But would wear the shirt, or understand the culmination of and importance of this new technology as we shift milleniums.  Brought together on an electron plane we have become friends in a way new to mankind, new in all ways to our evolution.  "R.O.F.F." in huge letters.  We recognize this. We are proud. A very, very important moment that we’re all experiencing in *our* lives. Perfection. But even more…the phrase…"Fishing is Life, Don’t Waste it", *is* ‘perfect’. Coupled with the youthful idealism of a child drawn innocent rendition of a trout makes it (to the continued chagrin of Maclean’s Mentor) "even more perfect". I struggled with it at first, I admit. "Fishing is Life". At first I thought of obssessive, compulsive greed behavior transmitted in this message, as in "screw the kids, screw the checkbook, screw the environment, I’m going fishing every day of my compulsive screwed up life". But this is more like "Fishing is Too Important to me and I’m out of balance, Sick, about it in fact".  Not the elegent, simpler…."Fishing is Life". No… Fishing *is* life.  The act of fishing, a fisherman, alive in the world, fishing, it is life. It is life. It can be no other thing.  Regardless of any other connotation or metaphor for fishing, it most certainly *is* life. There can be no doubt. "Don’t waste it". Perfect. This is not a statement of "Catch and Release", "Catch and Kill" or "Catch and Count" it’s *whatever it is. *DON’T WASTE IT*.  Catch one, quit and eat it.  Catch several and release them carefully, but *savor* them, *savor* them.  Do NOT waste it.  What better possible statement of conservation, of "Wasting Life" can be said ? It implies more…but in less words…"Fishing is Life, and Life is Short, so Don’t Waste it !" "R.O.F.F. – Caroline Clave ‘99 – Fishing is Life (Youth) Don’t Waste It" I’d certainly like to meet the Harrison’s.  *THAT’S* for damned sure. Way to go Anthony. Way to go Wayno. Way to go ROFF. Your Pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

Mike Connor: <<Maybe one day I will actually get to meet some of you, and that would be very nice, but in the meantime I wear the shirt occasionally, and imagine fishing places like Hazel creek, or hiking up a mountain stream with a few good friends. Getting amiably inebriated on the porch of a log cabin somewhere and discussing C&R vs. C&K in the flesh, singing silly songs, eating weird food that no civilised person would entertain, (grits ???), regularly checking the meniscus on the communal whisky bottle with Wolfgang maybe, and arguing over how many drinks are left in it, and whose turn it is to open the next one,  fishing with miniscule flies for gigantic fish, gigantic flies for miniscule fish, and lots and lots of other things too. Well, my friend from across the pond, all you have to do is show up at Logan Airport, Boston, Ma., in September of 2000.  If you come early, you may spend some time at my home and together we will go to Maine and some wonderful fishing with some wonderful people.  No need to rent a car — just get here.   Perhaps you can drag with you some other Your-o-pean Roffians, like Bill, Hans, and Herman.  Maybe even Christian if he can get away from his studies.  The same offer applies to them — no need to rent a car.  I will provide your transportation.   More info to follow after I venture up north in September.  Sure would be nice to have a European Cabin –  nothing but good ol boys errrrrrr, make that blokes, from across the pond. Dave LaCourse

Response:

Gawd, I love it when you get on a roll. There just ain’t no disguisin’ the camaraderie of ROFF in the face of a post from the heart. Thanks, Timbo. — Ken Fortenberry

speakin’ of camaraderie…how come you ain’t on the road yet?. my kickin foot is gettin’ itchy. waldo — Ezflyfish.com                 Blue Ridge Book Gallery Quality Gear & Service        Used & Out-of-Print Books http://www.ezflyfish.com      http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

Response:

speakin’ of camaraderie…how come you ain’t on the road yet?. my kickin foot is gettin’ itchy.

I’ll hit the road at crack of dawn tomorrow, my friend. Hope to be at Jeff’s cabin around 7 Friday evening. FYI, my email has been down since 4 a.m. this morning. A construction crew cut a cable and my office has no electricity. Since I’ve eschewed the campus email system with its built in redundancy in favor of the SGI on my desk that I’ve customized in my own quirky fashion, I find myself hoist on my own petard and incommunicado for the time being. That’s what I get for being a smartass. I’ll try to answer emails before I leave in the morning. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

I’ll have a JAX bud waitin fer ya! Waldo the thoughtful – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – speakin’ of camaraderie…how come you ain’t on the road yet?. my kickin foot is gettin’ itchy. I’ll hit the road at crack of dawn tomorrow, my friend. Hope to be at Jeff’s cabin around 7 Friday evening. FYI, my email has been down since 4 a.m. this morning. A construction crew cut a cable and my office has no electricity. Since I’ve eschewed the campus email system with its built in redundancy in favor of the SGI on my desk that I’ve customized in my own quirky fashion, I find myself hoist on my own petard and incommunicado for the time being. That’s what I get for being a smartass. I’ll try to answer emails before I leave in the morning. — Ken Fortenberry

– Ezflyfish.com                 Blue Ridge Book Gallery Quality Gear & Service        Used & Out-of-Print Books http://www.ezflyfish.com      http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

Response:

… and maybe a different color tee as well.

No ! The natural cotton color is PERFECT. Cool, doesn’t draw bugs, blends in for stealth, what more could you ask for in a T-shirt color ? — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Truly an excellent post Tbone. Jeff Boks Fly  Fishing~~~~~Just Do It

Response:

Ken, Don’t forget to make a point of fishing Elk River.  Walt will make up some wild story to keep you off it but don’t be dissuaded!  When you have brought a double digit number of 15 inch + Browns to hand, take some pictures and tales into Fay’s Hardware in Linville to tell Paul.  He keeps a special surprise for the fly fisherman who brings in the best story of fishing the Elk each week! Wayne To fish is human…to release divine.

Response:

day tripper writes accurately and poetically: <<Tim, you’re freakin’ me out, man… Your internal struggles aside, I agree with the sentiment. Well said, and rightly spoken… Hear, hear.  Could not agree more, Dave.  In fact, I think the Eastern Clave next year will use the same "A. Harrison print", with a different location/date.  What say you all?

Excellent! I think making a series of shirts is a killer idea, Dave. Keep the R.O.F.F., keep the artwork, keep the slogan, just change the location and year, and maybe a different color tee as well. Good stuff! <<A damned good shirt it is. I have three – though one of those is for my neighbor Dave "Garden Hackler" LaCourse (you’ll get it when I see you again – probably on our river in September)… Well, not that I am an Indian giver (where did that saying come from?), but I gave you my *only* clave t-shirt.  I thought I had another one, but I must have left it in NC.  So, I will see you on the river with your generous offer, sir.  I would have gone to my grave keeping silent about my loss, but since you have *three*,

As I promised you before, it’s a done deal. I was hoping to present it to you on a striper foray, but while you and I were having a ball on The River, most of the stripers apparently swam on up to Maine. Seems like only the little dudes stuck around down here – the fishing has been very slow on the ‘Mack… /daytripper

Response:

… and maybe a different color tee as well. No ! The natural cotton color is PERFECT. Cool, doesn’t draw bugs, blends in for stealth, what more could you ask for in a T-shirt color ?

Is *that* what this color is? (we don’t grow no cotton in New England). The color is fine, I was just thinking of how to provide some variety in a series of roffian ‘clave shirts. But "blends in for stealth"? Where do you fish where the background is "natural cotton"? Even in the toaster oven that has been New England this year, our backgrounds are greens and browns. Wear a Carolina ‘Clave shirt on the stream here and the fish would have to put on their shades ;^) /daytripper

Response:

On certain occasions the statements from Glenwood echo and reverberate… On any occasion I’m proud to say Tim is my friend….this being one. way to go bud. –Walt (who will be wearing his tee proudly this weekend)

Couldn’t of said it better if Mike had said it for me. Cheers Peter

Response:

Is there a reason for the trailing dot in "R.O.F.F."?

Yes.   Period. Your pal, — TimW

Response:

A damned good shirt it is. I have three – though one of those is for my neighbor Dave "Garden Hackler" LaCourse (you’ll get it when I see you again – probably on our river in September)… Enjoy yours, Tim. And if by some stroke of fortune I see you on the street in Glenwood – RUN LIKE HELL!

God I love this place!  I can’t tell you how much enjoyment I get out of here every day!  It is truely one of the bright spots when I am too busy to be fishing. Warren

Response:

you go, Timbo.  very well said. Mark Faulkner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … Brought together on an electron plane we have become friends in a way new to mankind, new in all ways to our evolution.  "R.O.F.F." in huge letters.  We recognize this. We are proud. … Gawd, I love it when you get on a roll. There just ain’t no disguisin’ the camaraderie of ROFF in the face of a post from the heart. Thanks, Timbo. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

I have worn my "Caroline Clave ‘99" shirt proudly now several times.  I wore it to work yesterday.   The more I have it, the more I think about it, the more I want to tell Wayne’s son that he has captured *it* perfectly.    thanks a lot for your comment.  it was very nice.  and 1 more thing.  

just to tell u what i think about my slogan, what i mean about ‘DON’T WASTE IT’ is that, as u said, life is short, but i think if no one has gone fishing at least 730 days in their whole life, their life is not complete.                               From the little man.         and from the big, old, man:  kinder words have never been spoken on behalf of me and mine.  it takes a long time to lose a friend from north carolina.  you never will. wayno

Response:

evolution.  "R.O.F.F." in huge letters.  We recognize this. We are proud.

Is there a reason for the trailing dot in "R.O.F.F."? And, how about a non-clave generic ROFF T-shirt? I’ll have two of those, please. — Christian Figenschou – <URL: http://figen.com

Response:

I have worn my "Caroline Clave ‘99" shirt proudly now several times.  I wore it to work yesterday.   The more I have it, the more I think about it, the more I want to tell Wayne’s son that he has captured *it* perfectly. I mean *perfectly* as in there is no room for improvement. For one, the huge R.O.F.F. on the front…it *should* say, be that man. When I walk down the street here in Glenwood a visiting ROFFian could see it and introduce himself in person.  I want that, I really want that to happen. That some made the Clave, some didn’t, some wouldn’t.  But would wear the shirt, or understand the culmination of and importance of this new technology as we shift milleniums.  Brought together on an electron plane we have become friends in a way new to mankind, new in all ways to our evolution.  "R.O.F.F." in huge letters.  We recognize this. We are proud. A very, very important moment that we’re all experiencing in *our* lives. Perfection. But even more…the phrase…"Fishing is Life, Don’t Waste it", *is* ‘perfect’. Coupled with the youthful idealism of a child drawn innocent rendition of a trout makes it (to the continued chagrin of Maclean’s Mentor) "even more perfect". I struggled with it at first, I admit. "Fishing is Life". At first I thought of obssessive, compulsive greed behavior transmitted in this message, as in "screw the kids, screw the checkbook, screw the environment, I’m going fishing every day of my compulsive screwed up life". But this is more like "Fishing is Too Important to me and I’m out of balance, Sick, about it in fact".  Not the elegent, simpler…."Fishing is Life". No… Fishing *is* life.  The act of fishing, a fisherman, alive in the world, fishing, it is life. It is life. It can be no other thing.  Regardless of any other connotation or metaphor for fishing, it most certainly *is* life. There can be no doubt. "Don’t waste it". Perfect. This is not a statement of "Catch and Release", "Catch and Kill" or "Catch and Count" it’s *whatever it is. *DON’T WASTE IT*.  Catch one, quit and eat it.  Catch several and release them carefully, but *savor* them, *savor* them.  Do NOT waste it.  What better possible statement of conservation, of "Wasting Life" can be said ? It implies more…but in less words…"Fishing is Life, and Life is Short, so Don’t Waste it !" "R.O.F.F. – Caroline Clave ‘99 – Fishing is Life (Youth) Don’t Waste It" I’d certainly like to meet the Harrison’s.  *THAT’S* for damned sure. Way to go Anthony. Way to go Wayno. Way to go ROFF. Your Pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

Question:

        more better:  absolut and tonic, no lime, at twilight.         wayno         sulphur creek

OK  Wayne, what’s this more better coming from you? Unless you’ve had a few. Try this; SOBE Lizard Fuel with that Absolute, but then again this could be a Lady’s drink.;-) Missed the hatch. Doug Knight Snake River

Response:

Drys at twilight. Doug Knight Snake River

        more better:  absolut and tonic, no lime, at twilight.         wayno         sulphur creek – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

[snippped] Last fall fishing on the Trinity required about  90% of the day roll casting a weighted fly with a sink tip. Weighted fly?!? Hey Doug: did George read that over your shoulder? Is he still alive?

Nope! I’m free, white and single aand I can speak for myself. George doesn’t know all my tricks. I keep my indicators out of sight when he’s around. George alive? The heat has worked him hard today. He wasn’t in the shop past noon. When the weather cools off he’ll  be in better spirits. Drys at twilight. Doug Knight Snake River

Response:

[snippped] Last fall fishing on the Trinity required about  90% of the day roll casting a weighted fly with a sink tip.

Weighted fly?!? Hey Doug: did George read that over your shoulder? Is he still alive? /daytripper

Response:

0] : I’m getting tired of pulling my flies out of the brush.. and never : getting enough distance on my cast (in spite of countless but : fruitless false casts) to get my fly where I want it to be. : Does anyone know of a local instructor they would recommend?  Yea, I : do know of some local shops to ask around at, but I’d rather have a : first hand recommendation if you’ve got one. : -Mark You might want to check out the Peninsula Fly Fishers Club. We do a casting clinic once a month. The next one will be on Aug 21 at Erckenbrack Park in Foster City. See our web site http://www.geocities.com/~mpff .  Another possibility is the San Jose Fly Fishers who have clinics on some Thursday evenings down at the casting ponds in Campbell, but I am not sure of the details. Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories  (remove x’s from email if not      Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971   a spammer) Phone: (650)-857-5491              

Response:

I’m getting tired of pulling my flies out of the brush.. and never getting enough distance on my cast (in spite of countless but fruitless false casts) to get my fly where I want it to be. Does anyone know of a local instructor they would recommend?  Yea, I do know of some local shops to ask around at, but I’d rather have a first hand recommendation if you’ve got one. -Mark — Particle Salad/ Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad

Response:

I’m getting tired of pulling my flies out of the brush.. and never getting enough distance on my cast (in spite of countless but fruitless false casts) to get my fly where I want it to be. Does anyone know of a local instructor they would recommend?  Yea, I do know of some local shops to ask around at, but I’d rather have a first hand recommendation if you’ve got one.

Mark, It’s goes back to this presentation thing. Back cast in the trees? It sounds like you need to master one valuable casting ability, the roll cast. Once you learn it, you won’t need the trees anymore. You’ll spend more time fishing instead of digging and tearing at the flora. You’ll need to be on the water or a casting pond to really learn this. Golden Gate Park or Maceran(sp) Park in the east bay are good locations with casting ponds. Last fall fishing on the Trinity required about  90% of the day roll casting a weighted fly with a sink tip. The only flies that I lost on that trip were on the bottom where I needed to be. Roll away. The roll cast is only the front end of the cast. Doug Knight Snake River

Response:

Question:

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Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …while this was sound advice beware of the impression that all the problems you may have starting out is due to the lower cost equipment you purchased. No matter how much is spent on the rod everyone has to learn how to cast. In my experience even lower cost rods are fine for this – often their ’slower’ characteristics are more forgiving to the beginner. While the line is the most important part of the tackle – many of the lower priced lines available – ie the Sci Anglers Aircel lines, are quite alright. Basically the same line they sold for 2x the price a decade or two ago. But beware cheap off brands, particulary level lines. If the line has no brand name on it and you can’t detect it getting thicker as you move up the tip several feet, you should throw it away or keep it for trolling. Ralph H

Ralph has some good points,especially about avoiding level lines.  They are a total waste of money, plus cause casting problems and bad casting habits that take years to get rid of.  The less expensive Orvis Clearwater lines, and the SA beginner lines actually make casting easier for novices because of their short front taper design.  They turns over flys more easily.  The sacrifice delicacy in doing so, but usually a novice’s casting skills aren’t too delicate anyway and they help the cast extend.  As your skills improve, you will probably want to buy a better line before you wear one of these out. While some people have a tough time learning on a fast action or tip-flex rod, I’d hesitate to recommend a full-flex (soft action) rod for a beginner. In 1987 as we started changing the rods in the Orvis West Coast Schools from the full-flex Superfine Limestone Special to the mid-flex "Western Series Spring Creek" we had both types available for a while for our students.  Students would race to get the Western Series rods because they were easier to cast without throwing tailing loops.  Shortly thereafter we replaced all the full flex rods with the Western Series.  I should note we teach a forearm based stroke in our casting programs (both Orvis WC and my own schools) which works very well with this type of rod.  When people first start out the most common mistake is to use too much wrist often snapping it in mid stroke which almost ivariably overdrives the tip and causes tailing loops.  The mid to tip flex rods eliminate a lot of this problem because it is harder to overdrive the tip with this kind of design.  It can still be done, but is a more forgiving (of mistakes) action for beginners. Still, you need to cast the rods to see which ones you like.                            Good Luck,                                      Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools Mt. Shasta Fly Fishing Schools http://www.thegrid.net/flyfish

Response:

I’m very, very new to fly fishing, and if nothing else, the people on this newsgroup have been very friendly in sharing information for a beginner. So, I went to our local fly shop, and was browsing around, and I saw something that floored me….the rods they were selling were in the $300 and up range… Now, I bought a fly rod and reel combo, that came with line, backing, leader, and a few flies for less than $60.00. What, exactly, does the extra $250.00 or more for a rod get me?  (Other than broke. <grin)  What makes those rods that much more valuable? Thanks, Monte P.S. To reply via email, remove the ".dot" from my email address.

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I’m very, very new to fly fishing, and if nothing else, the people on this newsgroup have been very friendly in sharing information for a beginner. So, I went to our local fly shop, and was browsing around, and I saw something that floored me….the rods they were selling were in the $300 and up range… Now, I bought a fly rod and reel combo, that came with line, backing, leader, and a few flies for less than $60.00. What, exactly, does the extra $250.00 or more for a rod get me?  (Other than broke. <grin)  What makes those rods that much more valuable?

If you are new, next to nothing.  At first, you probably won’t be able to tell the difference between a $60 outfit and a $500 rod.  Take your outfit out, fish with it, beat it up, make mistakes, break a tip, slip on a rock and break the handle off the reel (done that), but go fishing.  In a year or so, go to a fly shop and cast various rods once you’ve got the hang of things. If you can tell the difference and like the difference buy what you can afford.  If you can’t tell the difference or don’t like the difference stick with what you have or buy another one. I started out with a $15 rod/reel combo.  It cast like a broomstick, but it was what I could afford and caught fish. When I actually had money, I knew how to cast and could feel the difference in the actions of various rods and bought a reasonable quality rod/reel.  Plus when I fell on that rock and busted my reel I didn’t worry about it (much). My $0.02,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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Well the feel of the rod and its ability to case by improving transfer of energy to the line.  Oh I almost forgot the most important part, to demonstrate your dedication to the sport by showing others that you sent a reasonable sum of cash.  The person who spent the most has the best zen in fly fishing the rest is just for fun.  So I suggest that you peal the name off your rod and turn your reel in a lath and tell folks it is a two grand custom rig from Scotland this will impress them and the fish.  Or you could spend your time fishing and simply enjoying your surroundings and the sport.   good luck and get out and spend or fish. Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m very, very new to fly fishing, and if nothing else, the people on this newsgroup have been very friendly in sharing information for a beginner. So, I went to our local fly shop, and was browsing around, and I saw something that floored me….the rods they were selling were in the $300 and up range… Now, I bought a fly rod and reel combo, that came with line, backing, leader, and a few flies for less than $60.00. What, exactly, does the extra $250.00 or more for a rod get me?  (Other than broke. <grin)  What makes those rods that much more valuable? Thanks, Monte P.S. To reply via email, remove the ".dot" from my email address.

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Monte Porche wrote [snip] Now, I bought a fly rod and reel combo, that came with line, backing, leader, and a few flies for less than $60.00. What, exactly, does the extra $250.00 or more for a rod get me?  (Other than broke. <grin)  What makes those rods that much more valuable?

My guess is you’re probably right in going with the less expensive outfit to begin with.  I think you have to flyfish for awhile before you can start to appreciate some of the performance advantages of a more expensive rod. After you’ve gotten to the point where your casting effectively (not necessarily great … but effectively), try finding some fishing buddies who’ll let you try a few casts with their more expensive rods … or see if the flyshop you frequent will let you try casting a few of the rods they sell.  You may find some will perform better (then again, maybe not).  Rod speed is a factor that is important to many people – this refers to speed of casting movement which most "naturally" optimizes the cast for a particular rod.  Some people like fast rods, some like slow ones, it’s a matter of personal preference.  It’s also an issue you probably shouldn’t worry about until you have some experience … learn how to deal with the rod you have and you’ll be better able to feel the differences in performance of other rods. Also, these days, many of the more expensive rods come with a lifetime, no-questions-asked guarantee.  What this really means is that part of the price you pay is really group benefit rod insurance.  (If you fish a lot, you’ll probably make a claim sooner or later yourself!). —                                                       -dnc-

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All of the replies so far have been good. Heres my addition: The difference between low cost vs higher cost is nearly always a direct relationship between low quality vs. better quality, sophistication and performance. If you had just started driving (let’s say), perhaps you would never have realized that a Ferrari F355 could be so much more enjoyable than a Toyota Tercel (no offense intended, Tercel owners).  They both serve the same basic transportation purpose. Yet if you had started with the Ferrari, you might have said it’s "Hey it’s too twitchy, too hard to press in the clutch pedal thing, and when I press the accelerator the car goes wild! Nobody would wanna drive this!" The point is it’s better off starting with the basics. You’ve started out fine. Have fun. Don M. J.Kennedy Fisherto a Loomisto a Winstonto a W. Powellto a ??

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Don M. made the analogy of expensive flyrods/cheap flyrods to cheap cars/sports cars.  My question is this – Will a Winston or a Thomas & Thomas get you laid? Pete C

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If so, I’ve got to get me one of those. Dana

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Don M. made the analogy of expensive flyrods/cheap flyrods to cheap cars/sports cars.  My question is this – Will a Winston or a Thomas & Thomas get you laid? Pete C

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Don M. made the analogy of expensive flyrods/cheap flyrods to cheap cars/sports cars.  My question is this – Will a Winston or a Thomas & Thomas get you laid? Pete C

It’s not how expensive your rod is, it’s what you do with it that counts.  :-)      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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try finding some fishing buddies who’ll let you try a few casts with their more expensive rods … or see if the flyshop you frequent will let you try casting a few of the rods they sell.  You may find some will perform better (then again, maybe not).

Don’t do this!!! If you do you may end up in the same boat with the rest of us. A poor flyfisherman with alot of snazzy tackle and a wife who shakes her head with alarming frequency; as they say ignorance is bliss. Of course I never follow my own advice either. T.G. Mittler

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: If you had just started driving (let’s say), perhaps you would never have : realized that a Ferrari F355 could be so much more enjoyable than a Toyota : Tercel (no offense intended, Tercel owners).  They both serve the same basic : transportation purpose. Yet if you had started with the Ferrari, you might have : said it’s "Hey it’s too twitchy, too hard to press in the clutch pedal thing, : and when I press the accelerator the car goes wild! Nobody would wanna drive : this!" I understand the point ArtDrectr is making and for many, it probably works.  But not for me, and here is why.  Automobiles are sophisticated pieces of machinery and involve many parts that must work together. Significant design and engineering is required and many, many decisions made along the way to the market.   A graphite rod is very different.  It has a couple of numbers that characterize the performance and it is not difficult to change these numbers to make a rod.  For example, look at catalogs or talk to experienced fisherfolk… they will tell you a particular rod is soft or stiff, or at most describe 3 different types of flex.  A second factor is the weight, but that is about it.  That’s really all that matters.  (Well, durability too, but the guarantee should cover that.) As you get more experienced, you might move into a personal preference for a particular rod and if it matters much to you, spend the money.  For now, you done good with the cheap outfit.  As you gain experience, take the opportunity to try every rod you can, and see if you prefer other rods.  I suspect you will find rods that might be a bit less stiff than your current rod and you will definitely find rods that weigh less.  Pay attention to these things, but trust your judgement.  Your initial suspicions are right on. And by all means, send your kids to a good school before you spend your extra cash on expensive rods.  That is something that really makes a difference. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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Don M. made the analogy of expensive flyrods/cheap flyrods to cheap cars/sports cars.  My question is this – Will a Winston or a Thomas & Thomas get you laid? Pete C

        maybe not; but you’ll feel like it’s happenin when you lay out line with either one.         a. wayne harrison

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What, exactly, does the extra $250.00 or more for a rod get me?

The extra $250 gets you a guarantee.  Slam the tip in the car door and they will replace it.  I buy blanks and build my own rods, its a little cheaper, sometimes still get the guarantee,  put the same grip on all my rods (everythng must have the Fenwick style).  Its pretty easy once you get the hang of it, and its a good way to spend the off season. I’d fish the $60 outfit until the thing falls apart.  I’ve got more rods than you can swing a stick at and I always use the same two.  One of them is the first rod I built.  Good Luck. Patrick  

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: : What, exactly, does the extra $250.00 or more for a rod get : me? : The extra $250 gets you a guarantee.  Slam the tip in the car door and they : will replace it.   Redington offers a replacement guarantee for a little over $100 complete, $70 blank. The 5-6 wt. is a fine rod. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m very, very new to fly fishing, So, I went to our local fly shop, and was browsing around, and I saw something that floored me….the rods they were selling were in the $300 and up range… Now, I bought a fly rod and reel combo, that came with line, backing, leader, and a few flies for less than $60.00. What, exactly, does the extra $250.00 or more for a rod get me?   Hi Monte, One of the key things to keep in mind is that if you can’t tell the difference, it doesn’t make any difference to you. By the same token, junk is junk and a waste of money, *time* and *effort*, no matter how cheap it is.  A lot of folks start fly fishing buying the cheapest stuff they can find, slap it together, and try to make it work.  I did the same thing and spent 2 1/2 frustrating years trying to make a piece of junk work that just plane wouldn’t – it was bad equipment.

…while this was sound advice beware of the impression that all the problems you may have starting out is due to the lower cost equipment you purchased. No matter how much is spent on the rod everyone has to learn how to cast. In my experience even lower cost rods are fine for this – often their ’slower’ characteristics are more forgiving to the beginner. While the line is the most important part of the tackle – many of the lower priced lines available – ie the Sci Anglers Aircel lines, are quite alright. Basically the same line they sold for 2x the price a decade or two ago. But beware cheap off brands, particulary level lines. If the line has no brand name on it and you can’t detect it getting thicker as you move up the tip several feet, you should throw it away or keep it for trolling. Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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Question:

Hi Sandy, Great idea and post on the Skinny Minny. I’m going to give them a try after Christmas. There is usually some kind of thaw for a few day in mid January in Montana and I’m going to be prepared. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 materials catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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[ skinnies 4K ]

             –Skinny Minnies and Rapalicas– WARNING:   The following discussion may prove hazardous to your sensibilities. If you like precise definitions and are uncomfortable with gray area, abort now and read no further. Else continue.   Hot damn. I’ve been working on this for over ten years, and now I finally have it: homemade, lightweight wigglers that are quick and easy to make. I wrote about this once, or, should I say John Gierach did, about 10 years ago in fly fisherman, in an article called "Flies or Lures," where my work was reviewed along with the work of several others (A K Best?) I had some wigglers that worked then, but they were way too heavy, and took way too long to make. I posted some interim, ‘almost works’ instructions to rec.outdoors.fishing a few years ago, and immediately started a flame war about what is and isn’t fly fishing. Several readers thought the very idea of fly rod wigglers was inherently reprehensible. One reader referred to them derisively as "Skinny Minnies." I thought it was a pretty good name. I’ll have to see if I can get something published under that name. For me, wigglers have been the hardest challenge in fly tying. I have been making them for years, but I never knew–until recently–which ones would work and which ones wouldn’t. Dave Whitlock once described the balancing of homemade wigglers as "Impossibly difficult." But it ain’t so: once you’ve got it, it’s easy. BACKGROUND:   First of all–just in case there is any doubt in your mind–wigglers are absolutely deadly. Tiny, 3/8" long wigglers are absolutely dynamite on the spring creeks. In bigger water, fat, long-bodied wigglers thrown into the i pockets behind overhanging willow branches pull out big browns like a magnet. MATERIALS:    Thin super glue.    5-minute epoxy    Spawn sack—dyed brown or black if you are a perfectionist    Clear mylar sheeting (get it at the drafting supplies store, ala                          Bett’s frog lip)    any standard hook…with hook size vaguely dependant on body length.    optional: any number of rubber leg, marabou, saddle hackle additions              that can be added, as-per-your imagination. TYING (assembly) INSTRUCTIONS:    ….say for a big one…    Cut a 1/4" x 1/4" x 2" square tube of closed cell foam. Use scissors to taper off the rear end. Use a razor blade to cut a 60 degree slanted front face in the foam. Slit what will eventually be the belly of the fly (lure?) and push in a flattened split shot, along with a dab of epoxy. This "belly-mounted" ballast is critical. This (belly ballast) was the missing part of the puzzle, for me. With a bouyant tail, a little ballast in the belly and slightly weighted bill, they all orient downwards, and dive and wiggle like crazy when you pull on the line.     Roll the foam body up like a cigarette (perhaps you learned how to do this i back in the late 1960’s)–in a rectangle of spawn sack. Twist up the loose spawn sack at the rear end, and glue the tight knot at the rear end with a spot of thin super glue. Clip off the excesss spawn sack. Twist the spawn sack flat over the slanted front end of the foam body. Use a small amount of thin super glue to pin the spawn sack flat against the slanted front end of the foam.   Cut a rectangle of rigid, clear mylar sheeting for the diving lip. Rough it up with sand paper. Glue the front end of the slanted foam body onto the diving lip with epoxy. Set it aside to dry.    Once the epoxy has hardened, use scissors to trim back the mylar sheeting into a Rapala-like diving lip. Glue an additional, flattened split shot on the lower edge of the bill.    At this point, you can add do-dads. Sew in rubber legs, flashabou, saddle hackles, beady eyes….whatever you want. What you have, at this point, is a soft-bodied lure that dives and wiggles like a daemon, and yet is no heavier than many commercially tied streamer flies. You can toss them easily with a fly rod. HOW TO FISH THE FLURE:   Use a bodkin needle to poke a hole through the bill. Push the tippet through the hole. Throw a half hitch around the body of the lure. Use a needle to push the tippet through the foam at its rear end. Tie on any hook you like. Fish it upstream and across, like a streamer. You may have to use toenail clippers to "fine tune" the action of the lure. Then try fishing it it downstream, swimming it back and forth at the top of likely looking pockets. Pay attention and be ready to set the hook. You’ll get plenty of strikes. You’ll find more big fish than you ever imagined. I fished some of these last summer on the Big Horn, and the results were nearly indescribable. The only flaw at that point, was that only about 1 in 4 flies I made worked (wiggled) right. Now they all do. It’s all in the belly ballast.

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Question:

To what nefarious purpose will these stories be put? Is there compensation for the author or at least ego gratifying recognition? Len Hunter

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I’m starting a collection of fly-fishing stories.  I’d be interested in anything funny, exciting, unbelievable, thrilling, interesting, or just a little odd.  Just email your stories to me.  Please be as accurate in the story as possible. Thanks.

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This story is a fictional compound of several true incidents. Unfortunately, the angler of the lost fly rod was a very nice guy; nothing bad happened to the rude and obnoxious clients.    I knew I was in trouble within a few minutes of meeting the clients. They appeared at the outfitter in full dress–like officers in some weird flyfisherman’s army, brigadiers maybe or Protocol Officers.  In fact, they were arguing over the proper placement of their Backup Nipper. Top-to-bottom Orvis, Sage, Abel, etc.  If they had been paid by the logo we would all have been millionaires.   To be sure, their equipment was glorious.  Several flyrods each, with a lengthy discussion of which was most appropriate (the seven and the eight) and how many the raft could comfortably carry (we agreed on four each, with reservations on the guide’s part.) This despite the fact that we had already covered this ground in phone calls.  Beautiful tackle bags, unmarred. Boxes of flies, in large groups by nomenclature.  I was jealous, I must admit. Even so, I snuck some of my equipment back into the shuttle vehicle; I was a bit worried about payload.     I must say, this was unusual.  Though many of our clients are novices, we rarely see two anglers so obviously overequipped and underexperienced. It’s most usual to see the novice in the care of a more experienced angler. Also, we have no aversion to the inexperienced; our business is teaching, and that calls for patience and flexibility.  This level of confidence belied by the facts was worrisome, though; would the clients’ expectations ruin the trip? Could they cast to the bass, could they hook up at all?  We fish for ten to twelve hours; could inexperienced casters work for that long?  And would they blame me if any of these answers was ‘no’?   We also had to do a lot of preparation, which left me a bit worried about casting skills.  Three of four spools were brand new; it was proposed that we would load spools there at the ramp, while smallmouths chased bait in the shallows around us.  At first the clients were pleasant and relaxed; they said the right things about taking advice and so forth.  We got ready and shoved off.    But as soon as we were feet-wet, things deteriorated.  Tension between the clients became obvious, and I was glad that they sat facing opposite directions.  Their fly choices, casting directions, and retrieves had nothing to do with my advice.  They were in an arms race.  Both were well-tutored by the mainstream fly-fishing press, and they hurled advice at each other like snowballs packed around rocks.  I was in between.   Neither could get their flyline out of the boat.  Half an hour into the trip, drifting along through some of the most spectacular scenery in the East, and they were angry.  Not the best start to a guided trip.  And the smallies were on, too; I saw a lot of surface activity.  When the front angler fought a cast out about three rod-lengths and stripped in the excess flyline, a 14" fish slashed at his dahlberg right at boatside.  That was the only fish they moved all morning.  They changed flies, hung them in brush, on rocks, on the oars.  They debated barbless hooks even as I extracted one from my shoulder, barb fully functional but, thankfully, not quite engaged. They drank single-malt scotch but didn’t like it.   Just for a break, I put them out wading in a shallow, weedy area.  While they hacked and pumped and tied knots, I took a few tentative casts. Smallies to 12" took readily throughout the area. A few minutes later, a shout; one angler hooked, landed, and displayed, with what looked to be a fatal torso squeeze, a nice fish of about 14".  I grew angrier and angrier. In the previous week, tough conditions had limited good, old clients to few fish and few that size.  A few minutes later, with no other fish caught, I mounted them up and rode on.  Things came to a head as we approached a sharp, narrow rapid through a broken-down diversion dam.  The river here is mostly shallow, riffly ledges and rocks, with pools and weeds edges–classic smallmouth water.  As we approached the dam, I told them to pick up and keep their lines in, since the drop required a turn in the throat of the rapid to avoid jagged concrete and rebars that would tear the bottom out of the raft.  Both anglers disregarded this direction, and as we accelerated through the white water the guy in the aft seat hung up.   The boat was in mid-turn, and moving quickly.  I saw the rod go down and bend sharply. The angler called it a fish, but it obviously wasn’t.   "Give line!  You’re hung up!  Drop line!" I yelled.   "It’s a good one," he said.      The boat turned completely so that the flyline ran under, from stem to stern.  He was leaning into my sightline, to his left and my right.  The rod was compounded now, three-guides into the water, and he was holding tight.  I tried to pivot the boat a bit, but I had to hold my direction or risk a wreck.    "Give line!  Your’e hung!  I’ve got to turn.  Your’e going to break the rod!"    He didn’t give line, the rod didn’t break:  he let go of it.  It hung there a weird still second, then snapped straight and dove into the water, hung there a moment, then seemed to zoom upstream as the boat shot down current.  There was a stunned silence, which I welcomed.    As we drifted to a quiet spot, the forward angler asked questions:  He had missed the whole thing.  The aft angler was completely quiet, contemplating the permanent loss of a seven-hundred dollar outfit which had never caught a fish.  The 25-year guarantee didn’t cover loss by misadventure.  Feebly, he tried the Big Fish argument.   I wouldn’t even reply.  Pausing forty yards below the rapid, I was caught in a moral dilemma.    Our river is shallow, but forceful; a young woman had drowned in a canoe mishap against a rock about forty feet from where we sat a few years before. The water was warm, and I knew the spot intimately;  I was fairly sure that I could find the flyrod if the hook still held the snag.  Even if it had come loose, it was highly findable in the hole below, with a floating line and clear water.  But should I?  The angler considered it lost. He had plenty more, and was probably already composing the story for his friends, complete with bronze flash and tail the size of a Bible, no doubt with a supporting role as villain by  Sincerely Yours.  The guy was a mouth and a credit card, who had completely concealed all admirable qualities so far in the four hours we had known each other.  I sat for a long moment, then heaved a heavy sigh and dropped a hook.    "What’s up?" said the angler hopefully.    "You guys sit tight.  I may be able to get it back."    No reply.    I worked my way up to the dam in the slow water, alternately wading and swimming.  The usual friendly smooth river boulders were absent; it was jagged concrete and odd angles.  Careful footholds and a steep lean into the flow.  I couldn’t hope to work all the way up to the main rapid, but the faster water was shallower so I could hold.  Standing waist-deep in it, I stood and looked; sure enough, I saw the but and reel of the rod flare up in the swash.  Decision time.    I imagined how to do it:  Hit the ramp at nine pm, after the glorious dusk whitefly hatch.  Rack up and drop off at 10; drive up here and make the quarter-mile wade in the dark.  Feel through the rapid, hit the line, grab the rod; one sharp pull and I get a $700 tip.  If the day smooths out and the clients turn out OK, return the rod and call it an Abe Lincold honesty thing; if they fulfill their promise as first-class jerks, and especially if they stiff me, then the rod is mine.     The rod rolled up again, almost breaking the surface; I looked back. The forward guy was just watching, but the aft guy was looking away, an odd, vulnerable look on his face.  I realized a lot then, about how the attitude was a veneer, the macho competition covered a softer and simpler person. I couldn’t tell yet if he loved fish or fishing or rivers or boats, but I realized that the loss of the rod was probably fatal to his chances of ever loving any of it.  My guide habits created disdain and disapproval, but my river instincts told me that the river rarely returns something won fairly, and that to abuse the event was bad karma.  I couldn’t resist the impulse.  I gave him a smile and a nod and a thumbs-up, waited for the rod to show again, and leaned forward for it.  An easy catch, a yank and it was mine.  I rode the current back to them, winding up the slack line, and handed him the rod, wet and new.    I’d like to say the event changed the guy and things looked up; it’s half true.  The guy was grateful enough, but he didn’t have the eggs to really see my side of it.  I said, "Now will you listen to me?" and they both nodded, and they took a more relaxed and cooperative approach for a while.  They got their flylines out of the boat a few times, and caught some fish, too.  I got a reasonable tip, though the episode of the lost flyrod wasn’t mentioned again and the tip didn’t reflect the service that day.   I also gained the patience to stick with the difficult clients.  Somehow that day helped me to regain the basic comfort with the river that several years of difficult clients and finicky fish had eroded.  I remembered something that I had forgotten:  a guide is a teacher, and sometimes the best lesson is failure. Davemo18

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I have what I believe to be green sunfish. This fish were found in a shipment of baitfish that came from Arkansas. I live in central New York and our local DEC officer said they are not found in this area. People I know have said they are called Arkansas bluegill or shellcrackers. From books I have the fish that looks most like these fish is the green sunfish. They have the bodyshape of a rock bass. They have dark vertical stripes on their sides, a dark spot on the back of the gill cover, starting in front of the eye they have light metallic blue markings that go to the back of the gill cover, the over all body color is almost black and mottled with lighter scales throughout, all fins except the pectorals are edged with white with the pelvics being all white with black and brownish yellow streaks. The fish I believe to be females are less colorful. I have nine of these fish, the smallest is about 3 inches and the largest is about 7 inches. Does anyone know if this is indeed the green sunfish? How large do they get and what is their native range? They are living in a 75 gallon tank and doing fine. They eat anything I give them. Thanks for any information. Leah    

I think that you have it right.  We have them hear in California.  According to A.J. McClane’s New Standard Fishing Encyclopedia there are 30 species of sunfish that include bluegills and large mouth bass.  The only sunfish east of the rockies was the Sacramento Perch, all others have been introduced.  We call the green sunfish a "war mouth bass".  It is like a cross between a bass and a blueguill.  They are a great fish on light tackle. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

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Hi I have what I believe to be green sunfish. This fish were found in a shipment of baitfish that came from Arkansas. I live in central New York and our local DEC officer said they are not found in this area. People I know have said they are called Arkansas bluegill or shellcrackers. From books I have the fish that looks most like these fish is the green sunfish. They have the bodyshape of a rock bass. They have dark vertical stripes on their sides, a dark spot on the back of the gill cover, starting in front of the eye they have light metallic blue markings that go to the back of the gill cover, the over all body color is almost black and mottled with lighter scales throughout, all fins except the pectorals are edged with white with the pelvics being all white with black and brownish yellow streaks. The fish I believe to be females are less colorful. I have nine of these fish, the smallest is about 3 inches and the largest is about 7 inches. Does anyone know if this is indeed the green sunfish? How large do they get and what is their native range? They are living in a 75 gallon tank and doing fine. They eat anything I give them. Thanks for any information. Leah    

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I have what I believe to be green sunfish. This fish were found in a shipment of baitfish that came from Arkansas. I live in central New York and our local DEC officer said they are not found in this area. People I know have said they are called Arkansas bluegill or shellcrackers. From books I have the fish that looks most like these fish is the green sunfish. They have the bodyshape of a rock bass. They have dark vertical stripes on their sides, a dark spot on the back of the gill cover, starting in front of the eye they have light metallic blue markings that go to the back of the gill cover, the over all body color is almost black and mottled with lighter scales throughout, all fins except the pectorals are edged with white with the pelvics being all white with black and brownish yellow streaks. The fish I believe to be females are less colorful. I have nine of these fish, the smallest is about 3 inches and the largest is about 7 inches. Does anyone know if this is indeed the green sunfish? How large do they get and what is their native range? They are living in a 75 gallon tank and doing fine. They eat anything I give them. Thanks for any information. Leah    

Leah, the fish you have sounds just like a green sunfish to me. However, fish hatcheries are known to make hybrids between: green sunfish/bluegill green sunfish/red ear sunfish red ear sunfish/bluegill        obviously we don’t need to consider this one I still believe what you have is a pure green sunfish, because the hybrids that look like green sunfish have bright orange fins, and get larger. I have never heard a green sunfish called a shellcracker – shellcrackers are Red Ear Sunfish. If they are pure green sunfish, they won’t get much larger, maybe 8.5". If they are a hybrid they could reach 10". I don’t have a book in front of me, so I’m not sure about the range, other than I have caught them in Ohio, Indiana, and Texas. — Hunting and Fishing are the only sports that are even fun to FAIL at… as long as you don’t fail too often!  ;^)

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Question:

Has anyone been able to find fishable water within 2 hours of Denver? I tried several streams in RMNP last weekend but they are all running high and fast. Cheeseman is at about 2000 CFS. The Big Thompson is currently running at about 300CFS below Lake Estes and although I haven’t seen the river at this volume it sounds fishable (?). Any tips would be GREATLY appreciated!

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Has anyone been able to find fishable water within 2 hours of Denver? I tried several streams in RMNP last weekend but they are all running high and fast. Cheeseman is at about 2000 CFS. The Big Thompson is currently running at about 300CFS below Lake Estes and although I haven’t seen the river at this volume it sounds fishable (?). Any tips would be GREATLY appreciated!

Hiya Justin! I have been experiencing the same problems with blown out streams in Colorado until very recently. Upon realizing that any stream attempt was going to be a disaster, I begrudgingly decided to try my hand at some small lakes. Traditionally, I am the worlds WORST lake fisherman with a fly. I usually cannot catch ANYTHING, but I figured that this option was better than drowning in a swollen river. On a whim, I decided to try fishing the lake at the bottom of St. Mary’s Glacier on Saturday. The fishing was SO much fun that I took Monday off from work to do it again. That lake literally boils with rising brookies. Most of the fish are small (5-8 inches), but they aren’t very picky and it is one of the most beautiful spots around. Fishing there was a great confidence booster for me and while the fish weren’t big, they did end the frustration I have been having with my recent river trips. If you haven’t been there before, just take I-70 slightly past Idaho Springs to Fall River Road (Exit 238). Take fall river road up for quite a ways (You will go over spots of unpaved road) and eventually there is a small parking area on the right and wide rubble trail on the left. Hike up the trail on the left about 3/4 mile. Tie on just about anything and have fun. I caught a bunch on a #18 Blue Wing Olive, but I even took a few on a #12 Adams. Be prepared for funky weather. I got snowed on on Saturday and rained on on Moday. Tight Lines, Chad McArthur

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Has anyone been able to find fishable water within 2 hours of Denver? I tried several streams in RMNP last weekend but they are all running high and fast. Cheeseman is at about 2000 CFS. The Big Thompson is currently running at about 300CFS below Lake Estes and although I haven’t seen the river at this volume it sounds fishable (?). Any tips would be GREATLY appreciated!

Decided to combat near terminal cabin fever and trucked up to S. but sure no crowds.  Caught three in three hours, including the nicest brown on that stretch in two years -18-19".  Wasn’t a lot of fun, tho, with insane tangles trying to cast three 3/0 split shots over top of willows behind.  Can’t wade out more than 3-4′, but fish are to be found close in if you can find some fairly slow water.  Took them all on big bright red worm.  Think Dick at Flies and Lies in Decker called it a "traditional ol’ English-tied worm".  You gotta be near spiritual about this sport to find these conditions a kick!!

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The rivers have been less then ideal.  For myself, I have turned to one of my second favorite activities.  Fly fishing for Bluegill.  Here in the Grand Junction area we have a couple of places that are producing ‘gills to 9 inches plus.  On a four wt. they are a blast.  My E-Mail is I don’t mind company, I just value good fish too much to want to see the meat hunters showing up.

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I’ll be coming out that way in August to visit my brother at CU.  I’ve been to S. Platte and Buffalo (man that place was really crowded), and Cloudland Canyon last spring but am really looking for something a little less crowded (and less touristy).  Need help in Atlanta, Jeff

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Jeff, Since you will be in Boulder you could try the Cache La Poudre. It’s west of Ft. Collins. It has some prime water sites. Other places include the Frying Pan river near Basalt, CO and the Colorado river near

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Question:

By chance, is there a FF FAQ. I just started FF this year and I’m really getting into it. In fact, the only flies that I used this year were ones that I tied myself. The problem is that I only had success with one type of fly, that being the basic hackle fly. I need to find a source of fly tying info, such as how to’s and different types of flies. Any help would be greatly appreciated. If it helps, I fish mostly for speckle trout, pike and bass, although I’ve only caught the specks on the fly Thanks, Greg.

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Seems like the year is turning early here in CT. Already one of my favorite rivers, the Housatonic, is filling with drifting leaves. Its rapidly getting to the point where fishing is more like raking leaves with a single-tined rake. Did summer really slip away so quickly? Or is this just a case of getting a bit older? JL 8-Wt Editor

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Seems like the year is turning early here in CT. Already one of my favorite rivers, the Housatonic, is filling with drifting leaves. Its rapidly getting to the point where fishing is more like raking leaves with a single-tined rake. Did summer really slip away so quickly? Or is this just a case of getting a bit older?

The Aspens and Gambels Oaks turned early here in Colorado. Could it mean an early winter?  Could it mean lots of snow? Should I put away my fly-rod and get out my skis? — -Wayne Trzyna

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By chance, is there a FF FAQ. I just started FF this year and I’m really getting into it. In fact, the only flies that I used this year were ones that I tied myself. The problem is that I only had success with one type of fly, that being the basic hackle fly. I need to find a source of fly tying info, such as how to’s and different types of flies. Any help would be greatly appreciated. If it helps, I fish mostly for speckle trout, pike and bass, although I’ve only caught the specks on the fly Thanks, Greg.

I’m also interested in a FF FAQ, can anybody help me?

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Question:

         My view on people who have sold out is someone who used to make good,    innovative, sometimes dangerous music who signed to a major and now seem intent    on making enourmous amounts of money playing dull, uninteresting music made with    a safe formula and relying on media hype to boost their income.             My list of major sell-outs would include:-                  the Rolling Stones, Genesis, M.Jackson, Madonna, Guns ‘n’ Roses           (you get the message) To the ones underlined (using "^"): I do not recall that they _ever_ pretended to be "alternative" at any time. They were _always_ mainstream from the outset. By this technicality and by your reasoning, they cannot be sellouts, since none of them were ever "innovative" or "dangerous" by your (and my own) criteria at any time in their carreers, in my opinion.  

        I stand corrected, on re-reading what I had written I can see that I had      slipped out of context for a while. I think I went away from the subject      (i.e. "alternative" music) and instead lingered on the sell-out topic.         What I tried to say (not very clearly) is that these people had made a      large quantity of good music that amassed them a very large fan-base, but when       their music quality dropped to a sub-standard level their record sales        (and hence their income) stayed at a high level due to media hype.

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        Personally I think Nevermind was pretty much a sellout album, with me it hasen’t stood the test of time, or maybe it was just overplayed too much. — Richard Stride… ‘Master Myoclonis Meets Mephisto’

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[Stuff Deleted ...] To the "alternative" loser,   I was listening to alternative music before it was grouped into a catagory     -Isn’t this a contradiction, surely you’ve categorised alternative music.     I can’t speak for people in America, but in England "alternative" music is just   that – an alternative. It’s not a type of music, you don’t listen to a song and   think "Oh yeah, that’s alternative". It’s a category into which you can slot   many types, styles and fashions – i.e. Punk, Metal, Grunge, crusty, indie etc, etc.

Same here in Canada. And I get annoyed over such interpretations of "alternative" for the same reasons.          My view on people who have sold out is someone who used to make good,    innovative, sometimes dangerous music who signed to a major and now seem intent    on making enourmous amounts of money playing dull, uninteresting music made with    a safe formula and relying on media hype to boost their income.             My list of major sell-outs would include:-                  the Rolling Stones, Genesis, M.Jackson, Madonna, Guns ‘n’ Roses

          (you get the message)

To the ones underlined (using "^"): I do not recall that they _ever_ pretended to be "alternative" at any time. They were _always_ mainstream from the outset. By this technicality and by your reasoning, they cannot be sellouts, since none of them were ever "innovative" or "dangerous" by your (and my own) criteria at any time in their carreers, in my opinion.  Sure, the Stones began their carreers with much controversy and were known as "the Bad Boys of rock and roll" and still are; but IMO, they were merely attracting attention to themselves for commercial gain and success based on the free publicity of the news media. Their "cock-rock" musical style hasn’t changed in the past 30 years, qualifying them as probably more "conservative", and less versatile, IMO, than Frank Sinatra. Same for Madonna’s "cunt-rock" style. The unchanging nature of her music kind of ranks up there with Marie Osmond. BTW, you can also add Paul Simon, and most "resurrected" ’60s rock groups, like Starship (the most extreme example), The Greatful Dead, CSN&Y, Bob Dylan, Eric Clapton (all playing it safe to a lesser extent), and Elton John (another extreme example — recall 11-17-70, Empty Sky, Yellowbrick Road & compare with ANYTHING he’s done since 1980). —

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Hiya, Could someone help me make an informed decision and post the track listing for the latest Pavement album. Thanks, E. |                                 Eric J.                                     |

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        Where the hell has anyone seen a ripped sweater for $300 for crissake!?!?  This I gotta see…js

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How do you think I must feel? I’ve been listening to snotty nosed little dweebs whining about poser’s since grade 10. Ten years ago.

wow, you were in the 10th grade in ‘83, me too.  do you remember the really bad post-punk bands of the day.  too bad i missed out on the poser bashing.  you know what’s really funny:  i still were the same clothes i did then.  then i was called a dirt-boy, now you can buy a ripped sweater for $300.  go figger. —                                   Jeff Scott

–

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To all the "alternative" losers,         I have a little news for you.  You all seem to think that you are just the coolest calling bands sell-outs and making fun of all the ‘grunge’ dressers.  I’ve been sitting here reading your little arguementative articles and I think you’re all full of crap.  I was listening to alternative music before it was grouped into a catagory and just because some of my favorie bands happen to have had maybe one album hit mainstream doesn’t mean that now I should change my taste in music.  It also doesn’t mean I won’t be attending Lollapalooza’s anymore.  Those were some of the best times of my life and will be for years to come (hopefully).  It really turns my stomach to read about your opinions.  Maybe if you weren’t so close-minded you’d realize how stupid you really sound.  I didn’t post this to get a hostile response, only to make you think.  Really, you do sound like a bunch of losers. Sorry.         -Joanna

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To all the "alternative" losers,    I have a little news for you.  You all seem to think that you are just the coolest calling bands sell-outs and making fun of all the ‘grunge’ dressers.  I’ve been sitting here reading your little arguementative articles and I think you’re all full of crap.  I was listening to alternative music before it was grouped into a catagory and just because some of my favorie bands happen to have had maybe one album hit mainstream doesn’t mean that now I should change my taste in music.  It also doesn’t mean I won’t be attending Lollapalooza’s anymore.  Those were some of the best times of my life and will be for years to come (hopefully).  It really turns my stomach to read about your opinions.  Maybe if you weren’t so close-minded you’d realize how stupid you really sound.  I didn’t post this to get a hostile response, only to make you think.  Really, you do sound like a bunch of losers. Sorry.    -Joanna

yes!!! i posted an article to this effect a little while ago. i thought the whole idea of the mindset that this newsgroup is supposed to represent was being open to new things. lets stop bitching about who liked what groups when, and what groups have sold out because they need to make a living. lets start discussing music for what it is… music. its not grunge, its not alternative, its not rock, its not punk, and its not even disco. its fucking music. those terms are good as catagories for easier identification. kind of like male and female. that is all they are. what matters is the music. burnt

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How do you think I must feel? I’ve been listening to snotty nosed little dweebs whining about poser’s since grade 10. Ten years ago. —                                    Jeff Scott

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To all the "alternative" losers,    I have a little news for you.  You all seem to think that you are just the coolest calling bands sell-outs and making fun of all the ‘grunge’ dressers.  I’ve been sitting here reading your little arguementative articles and I think you’re all full of crap.  I was listening to alternative music before it was grouped into a catagory and just because some of my favorie bands happen to have had maybe one album hit mainstream doesn’t mean that now I should change my taste in music.  It also doesn’t mean I won’t be attending Lollapalooza’s anymore.  Those were some of the best times of my life and will be for years to come (hopefully).  It really turns my stomach to read about your opinions.  Maybe if you weren’t so close-minded you’d realize how stupid you really sound.  I didn’t post this to get a hostile response, only to make you think.  Really, you do sound like a bunch of losers. Sorry.    -Joanna

To the "alternative" loser,     I was listening to alternative music before it was grouped into a catagory      -Isn’t this a contradiction, surely you’ve categorised alternative music.      I can’t speak for people in America, but in England "alternative" music is just    that – an alternative. It’s not a type of music, you don’t listen to a song and    think "Oh yeah, that’s alternative". It’s a category into which you can slot    many types, styles and fashions – i.e. Punk, Metal, Grunge, crusty, indie etc, etc.          What it’s an alternative to is the "mainstream". This is nothing more than     an enourmous financial institution providing financial security and massive     wealth to many "rock stars". Corporate back-handers ensure radio and TV play     to boring, and safe music makers. These bands are of course not all guilty     many just using the extra spending powers to produce better music (mostly former     indie bands who have signed to majors).           My view on people who have sold out is someone who used to make good,     innovative, sometimes dangerous music who signed to a major and now seem intent     on making enourmous amounts of money playing dull, uninteresting music made with     a safe formula and relying on media hype to boost their income.              My list of major sell-outs would include:-                   the Rolling Stones, Genesis, M.Jackson, Miss Madonna, Guns ‘n’ Roses            (you get the message)            Bands who I think are getting dangerously close to sell-out time                    (their records are getting more and more boring):-                            U2, REM, and Simple Minds         There are countless bands I could add, but I’m not going to (so there).             I don’t think people can be critical of Nirvana yet as they haven’t        released any new material, everything they’ve released since Nevermind was        recorded before Nevermind. They could go on to write better songs      (like Mettalica have) they could progress back to their old (and less popular)   style which is more likely or they could come up with some absolute bollocks.                 Time will tell.           Meanwhile people’s opinion will come and go, birds will fly, fish will swim       and polar bears will do whatever it is polar bears do.          So my dear Joanna, let people say what they want, insults breed nothing but contempt and statements like,             It really turns my stomach to read about your opinions.          Don’t say much for freedom of speech, do they.                       Bye,                         Rob

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