Question:
There is plenty of ice out there. Here on the West Coast it occurs from now until spring. Usually below 15,000. The leagality issue is the source of endless debate. The big question is what constitutes "known icing conditions". The opinions lately have been swinging toward forcast icing as being "known icing".
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating? Icing conditions are fairly predictable. Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy. Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip. Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.
Response:
Airmet Zulu usually has an altitude range attached to it, ie. "occasional moderate icing between freezing level and FL180". You can sometimes get slightly above the airmet. I’ve seen Airmet Zulu with tops at 14,000 on a number of occasions. I don’t know how they come up with that, weather it’s determined by temperatures aloft or the estimtated tops of the clouds.
Either or both, I would guess. In Severe Weather Flying (which I strongly recommend) Dennis Newton suggests that the freezing band in stratiform cloud is rarely more than 3000 ft thick, and in convective cloud rarely more than 6000 ft thick. Above that level, the temperature is low enough so that the concentration of supercooled water droplets is low (they’re already ice). The Airmet may not be able to place that actual freezing band accurately, so it covers a deeper band. I wouldn’t want to bet my life on the freezing band being only 3000 ft thick: the Mooney I fly is about the worst icing-test-aircraft that I can imagine, and I’m certainly not tempted to try to climb through 3000 ft of freezing cloud to find out. But it’s a useful thing to have in your mind if you encounter icing. Julian Scarfe
Response:
I sort of feel that I, (in my Cessna 182 non ice approved) should deal with ice as you would with thunderstorms. Stay VFR whenever it’s subfreezing so you can see your options and see the situation ahead and behind.
Some would say that’s overly conservative. They’re wrong. Actually, in a relatively high performance single like yours, you might consider poking your nose in to take a look, provided you have good options for what to do if your nose gets frostbit. A C-182, if not too heavily loaded, has enough engine to carry some ice so if you get out of the icing quickly you should be OK. That’s about it, though. If you have no options for getting out of the icing quickly, you have no business even sticking your nose in it. And if you don’t have a high performance airplane, you have no business sticking your nose in even if you can get out quickly, because the ice will bog you down fast. And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range.
As I once discovered, that’s not sufficient to stay safe. It’s fine if you are above the undercast and still have plenty of performance to go higher, but if you’re pretty much maxed out (your climb rate is down below 500 fpm where you are cruising) exactly what are you planning to do if the tops rise? They can, you know. I got caught that way once myself. In a way, it seems safer on top as long as you can get there and down without having to penetrate freezing clouds. I’m not so sure about the whole route below the deck. Low visibility I heard can make ice by itself, and you could get some bad precip.
Low vis does not make ice. Precip can. I don’t want to be one of those who have had to land with a glazed over windshield peeking out the side window. … Aaron
No, you don’t. I came damn close myself a couple of times, and both times I thought I could make the flight VFR (once above the clouds, once below them). Michael
Response:
You’re welcome. I really did not mean to come down hard on you. It’s just that I used to believe what you believe, and that very nearly got me killed.
Excellent recount of your inadvertent adventure, man. And scary as hell. Thanks for takin the time. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180
Response:
So by quickly, you might say you could consider trying to get on top when the overcast is only reported to be 500 feet thick stratus and no pireps of mod or greater icing??
Something like that. See, here’s the scenario. MEA’s are 5000 ft. Tops are 4000, freezing level is 3000, and I can count on a climb rate of 1000+ fpm up through 7000. Under those circumstances, I might be willing to give it a go, provided I could get back in to where I was going without having to climb to the MEA. Remember the MSA around your departure airport, and think about how you would get back in if you stick your nose in and it gets frostbit. In a situation where icing was possible but wasn’t being reported, and the MOCA was below the freezing level, I might even be tempted to give it a shot going through the potential ice unless people were reporting icing. The idea is that I have LORAN and GPS on board, and the GPS has a power source independent of the aircraft, and the odds that I’ll be forced to descend below the freezing level (to the MOCA, where I still won’t hit anything) AND the LORAN or electrical system goes out on me AND the GPS goes out on me are so long as not to be worth considering. So push come to shove, I can descend. This is all a risk management game – how much has to go wrong before you run out of options? If you postulate enough simultaneous failures, eventually you have nothing left to work with and you die. But the fact is, for two independednt things to fail on the same flight, you need to be having a really bad day, so I don’t worry about it. Ice forming when it wasn’t forecast even though there is visible moisture and temperatures below freezing? That’s not all that common, but not unexpected either. If you don’t plan for that you’re a moron. Electrical failure? Same deal. Both in one day? Pretty damn remote. Handheld GPS going at the same time? Man, it just wasn’t your day. See what I’m getting at? The idea is this – if you have visible moisture and are in subfreezing conditions, ice can form. If all your outs depend on ice not forming somewhere under those conditions, you’re kidding yourself. You need an out that involves either getting to where it’s above freezing or getting to where there is no visible moisture, and getting there QUICKLY. In general, if you’re on the East or West coast in winter, or in the mountains any time of year, and you have a need to fly IFR (meaning the weather won’t let you get there VFR) then you need deice. Or you can take your chances. Sure, there are days that are exceptions, but that’s the general rule. I guess maybe I should be able to see the ground through the clouds on a continuous basis as I fly enroute on top, then if the tops rise above my abilities, I can descend through a hole in the undercast.
Well, how far do your abilities stretch? This is what I mean by being where you can still climb 500 fpm. Face it, tops are not very likely to rise more than 500 fpm. Also, if you can still do 500 fpm where you are, odds are you can go another 5000 ft up with little trouble. The tops are not likely to go that much higher everywhere at once. A lightly loaded C-182 should still be doing 500 fpm up at 7000 ft. I thought I heard it said on this group, that low visibility can indeed cause icing by itself. 1SM in haze or whatever.
If the haze is thick enough to reduce the vis to 1 sm, well, maybe. That takes A LOT of moisture, maybe enough that it might start to come out as ice. But I’ve yet to see visibility that poor without ceilings so low as to make going under anywhere but wide-open Midwest (and maybe even not there anymore, what with all the towers going up) way too scary even for me. Michael
Response:
Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions.
Airmet Zulu usually has an altitude range attached to it, ie. "occasional moderate icing between freezing level and FL180". You can sometimes get slightly above the airmet. I’ve seen Airmet Zulu with tops at 14,000 on a number of occasions. I don’t know how they come up with that, weather it’s determined by temperatures aloft or the estimtated tops of the clouds.
Response:
Wrong. Very, very wrong. The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing. Period. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions. They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT. Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react,
Which is why I placed the disclaimer that I was a VFR pilot at the beginning. I know I have lots to learn and was fishing for a response like yours. Thanks for your observations! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180
Response:
Actual ice is not rare. You will find ice in virtually every cloud below 0C on the West Coast. There are plenty of places with ice-free clouds around 0C but they are generally not near the coast. Mike MU-2 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating? Icing conditions are fairly predictable. Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy. Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip. Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.
Response:
A C-182, if not too heavily loaded, has enough engine to carry some ice so if you get out of the icing quickly you should be OK. That’s about it, though. If you have no options for getting out of the icing quickly, you have no business even sticking your nose in it
So by quickly, you might say you could consider trying to get on top when the overcast is only reported to be 500 feet thick stratus and no pireps of mod or greater icing?? I remember my first solo IMC. I plunged into the clouds on climbout, expection to be IMC all the way to my destination, only to pop out on top within 30 seconds. (not in winter of course) What a beautiful sight! And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range. As I once discovered, that’s not sufficient to stay safe. It’s fine if you are above the undercast and still have plenty of performance to go higher, but if you’re pretty much maxed out (your climb rate is down below 500 fpm where you are cruising) exactly what are you planning to do if the tops rise? They can, you know. I got caught that way once myself.
I guess maybe I should be able to see the ground through the clouds on a continuous basis as I fly enroute on top, then if the tops rise above my abilities, I can descend through a hole in the undercast. Low vis does not make ice. Precip can.
I thought I heard it said on this group, that low visibility can indeed cause icing by itself. 1SM in haze or whatever. … Aaron
Response:
I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment. But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right?
For the legal aspects I recommend http://www.avweb.com/articles/icingb/index.html But then I’ve very rarely paid much attention to the FARs myself. 
Paul Bertorelli’s article in November’s IFR is also well worth a read. It sent shivers down my spine. I have that T-shirt… Julian Scarfe
Response:
I got "page could not be found" on the sites you mentioned, but I think they are here now. http://www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/awc/vvice.html and http://www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/awc/nnice.html I also like http://www.rap.ucar.edu/largedrop/integrated/index.html and http://www.rap.ucar.edu/largedrop/ nice cloud tops graphs and icing reports and "ice at your intended altitude". Also the ADDS java pireps and airmets at http://adds.awc-kc.noaa.gov/projects/adds/index.html also look under the ADDS satellite icon and do the "forecast clouds" thing for your altitude. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions. They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT. Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, Which is why I placed the disclaimer that I was a VFR pilot at the beginning. I know I have lots to learn and was fishing for a response like yours.
The scary part is that I was a low time VFR-only pilot when I was rapidly disabused of my misconceptions. Story follows. It was a winter day in Inidiana, and I wanted to fly. My girlfriend wanted to eat. I convinced her that it would be fun to go to Rochester (IN) where there was a nice restaurant right across the street from the airport. The weather was 8000OVC and 10 mile vis – good VFR by anyone’s estimation. When I got my briefing the briefer warned me about icing in clouds. I pointed out that I was a VFR pilot in a VFR airplane and not planning to be in any clouds. He told me I’d be fine. Now icing is usually most severe at temperatures above zero – the air in subzero clouds is usually too dry for any significant icing to occur. The bases were at 8000 ft, and the ground temperatures were subfreezing. This SHOULD have clued me in about the inversion, but I was a low time VFR-only pilot and missed the cue. (For our European readers, I refer to zero F, which is about -18C) The Tomahawk I rented had the 125 hp engine. The advantage was that in the cool winter air, the bigger engine was just the ticket to get us to a comfortable cruising altitude quickly. The disadvantage was that at full power it was a thirsty beast, and for W&B reasons I elected to depart with a less than full load of fuel. I estimated that I had about 3 hours, and the round trip would take about 1.5 hours at the power settings I would be using. That seemed like a comfortable safety margin for day-VFR flying. The trip out and the lunch were uneventful, I hit my chekpoints perfectly, and lunch was good. The trip back started out just fine. Then I flew into a light rain shower. It was very light, and I could see right through it, so I really did not realize anything was wrong until I was in it. Then I noticed (and this all happened in a matter of seconds) that the horizon was going away. No, it was not a case of inadvertent VFR-into-IMC. There was a layer of clear ice building on my windshield. I made an immediate turn out of the shower. I expect my total time in the rain was only about a minute. But by the time I was out of it, I was at full throttle, only a little above Vy, and was gaining MAYBE 50-100 ft/min. I also could not see through my windshield because it, like the wings, was carrying a load of clear ice. Also, at full throttle, I now had less than an hour of fuel. I was lucky and I kept my head. I got help from ATC, the ice eventually sublimated off (but I had a plan that would, I think, have worked even with the ice – I was getting vectors to the 10,000+ ft runway at Grissom AFB), and I made an uneventful landing with about 30 minutes of fuel in my tanks. Had I crashed, no doubt I would have gotten a 90 for flying in known icing conditions. Thanks for your observations!
You’re welcome. I really did not mean to come down hard on you. It’s just that I used to believe what you believe, and that very nearly got me killed. Here’s another observation – weather is the most complex and open-ended area of pilot knowledge. The amount of weather knowledge that the average pilot has when he is given a ticket is pretty minimal. Unsurprisingly, it is also the major player in airplane crashes. Michael
Response:
There is nothing in Part 91 that specifically addresses flight in icing conditions (ignoring, of course, 91.527 which does not apply to most newsgroupies). The legal problem arises from 91.9, which refers to restrictions in the manual for the aircraft. I think common sense is a wonderful substitute for regulation, however. Bob Gardner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Allow me to express my interest in this thread as well. There are many sources about icing with respect to the types of icing and the specific local conditions in which they occur. However, I am looking for sources that discuss icing from a more general stand point. Types of area forecasts to avoid. I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment. But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right? Aaron, My suggestion is don’t fly over the adirondak mountains in challenging conditions. North East of Syracuse, it gets sparse quickly. If you have to cross over the ADK’s do so using SLK (Saranac Lake) at least it will keep you over route 3 and away from the biggest mountains most of the time. The northern route (along route 11 through Malone) is better (no mountains). The southern route (east Albany and then north to Burlington on VT side so you don’t cross over much of Lake Champlain) is the safest since stays over major highways and doesn’t cross over mountains. Since your from Detroit, pack warmly in case you have to put down. There has to be snow on the ADK mountains by now. Cheers, Paul I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182. I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be. With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider! I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations? Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps? (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice. (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff. … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z. Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR. But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)
Response:
Two sites that you can check out for unofficial guidance (they are experimental) are www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/nnice.html and www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/vvice. Bob Gardner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182. I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be. With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider! I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations? Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps? (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice. (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff. … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z. Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR. But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)
Response:
I sort of feel that I, (in my Cessna 182 non ice approved) should deal with ice as you would with thunderstorms. Stay VFR whenever it’s subfreezing so you can see your options and see the situation ahead and behind. And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range. In a way, it seems safer on top as long as you can get there and down without having to penetrate freezing clouds. I’m not so sure about the whole route below the deck. Low visibility I heard can make ice by itself, and you could get some bad precip. I don’t want to be one of those who have had to land with a glazed over windshield peeking out the side window. … Aaron – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds.
Response:
1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR?
I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating? Icing conditions are fairly predictable. Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy. Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip. Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?
There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions. They are all mutually exclusive and you won’t know anything concrete until a couple days before the trip. Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps? (even though there is no warm front in the area)
Naw! It’s best to no go if your chances are not good for reaching your required alternate or if your credit card is maxed out (a healthy credit card is a FAR regulation case you didn’t know) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice. (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles)
It doesn’t. There’s snow. There’s rain. There’s bad visibility then there’s icing conditions. All depends on the moisture content and temperature and dewpoint. You can have cold and wet without ice and ice without cold. The question to me would be, can I get to a decent alternate or not? If not, you don’t go. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180
Response:
NO THEY ARE NOT. Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael
You expect us to trust your judgement when you willingly flew a Traumahawk ? Kidding. Agreed with everything you said. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.
Response:
I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating? Icing conditions are fairly predictable. Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy. Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip. Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice.
Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.
Response:
2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations? Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps? (even though there is no warm front in the area)
Here’s about the extent of my cloud physics… You never *know* that you’re not going to get freezing rain, but without an inversion it’s unlikely. If precip is forming above the freezing level it’s usually as ice. As it falls into warmer temperatures below the freezing level it melts. Neither are necessarily problems, over and above what you’d expecting the same cloud without the precip; the formation of precip above the freezing level can actually be a good sign, as it may be a sign that the cloud is glaciating (turning from supercooled liquid drops into ice particles). The danger comes where precipitation falls from warmer temperatures above as rain into a sub-zero layer at lower levels. That’s freezing rain. In my part of the world (UK), it’s an infrequent scenario, but it certainly can happen. In the mid-US, where there’s less water around to keep the lower levels warm in winter, it’s probably a more frequent occurrence. Precipitation does, however, indicate that the cloud tops are higher than they otherwise would be, if it’s convective. In my limited experience some of the worst icing conditions are the tops of building cumulus which have not yet started producing much precip. Julian Scarfe
Response:
Thanks. This is helpful. -pw – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds. In fact this is the norm in the northern half of the country for about half the year… It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough. It hardly matters what the temperature is under the clouds – you need both below-freesing temperatures AND visible moisture for icing to happen. Unless it rains, you are safe below the clouds. You CAN get icing VFR. What it takes is an inversion. You fly in the clear, below the clouds, in subfreeezing temperatures. Rain falls above you, where it’s warmer, and the supercooled water hits your airplane and sticks as ice. Been there, done that, it sucked. First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating? Icing conditions are fairly predictable. Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy. Simple as that . . . right? Wrong. Very, very wrong. The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing. Period. If you are flying in clouds and the temperature is below freezing, you are taking your chances whether icing is predicted or not. We used to have a regular on this newsgroup who nearly got himself and his family killed by taking off into such conditions in an underpowered light single when there was no icing forecast. That’s not to say people don’t do it – but every year we lose a few who do, and scare the bejeezus out of many more. In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip. Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. If there are clouds and it’s below freezing, there may be. You won’t know until you fly through them. You certainly won’t know days in advance. Further, with a typical light single, once you start building ice your options become VERY limited. Here’s a rule of thumb – if at your cruising altitude you can’t manage a 500 fpm climb, then odds are if you start picking up ice you can’t escape it by going up. Your options are going down (better hope it gets above freezing above the MEA) or turning around and going back to where the ice wasn’t building (better hope the weather hasn’t changed – it may be no better behind than ahead). Icing is poorly understood. Icing forecasts are largely experimental. If you go into the clouds at subfreezing temperatures and are not prepared to deal with icing at any time, well, you’re just kidding yourself. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions. They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT. Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael
Response:
Allow me to express my interest in this thread as well. There are many sources about icing with respect to the types of icing and the specific local conditions in which they occur. However, I am looking for sources that discuss icing from a more general stand point. Types of area forecasts to avoid. I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment. But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right? Aaron, My suggestion is don’t fly over the adirondak mountains in challenging conditions. North East of Syracuse, it gets sparse quickly. If you have to cross over the ADK’s do so using SLK (Saranac Lake) at least it will keep you over route 3 and away from the biggest mountains most of the time. The northern route (along route 11 through Malone) is better (no mountains). The southern route (east Albany and then north to Burlington on VT side so you don’t cross over much of Lake Champlain) is the safest since stays over major highways and doesn’t cross over mountains. Since your from Detroit, pack warmly in case you have to put down. There has to be snow on the ADK mountains by now. Cheers, Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182. I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be. With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider! I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations? Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps? (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice. (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff. … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z. Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR. But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)
Response:
I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds.
In fact this is the norm in the northern half of the country for about half the year… It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough.
It hardly matters what the temperature is under the clouds – you need both below-freesing temperatures AND visible moisture for icing to happen. Unless it rains, you are safe below the clouds. You CAN get icing VFR. What it takes is an inversion. You fly in the clear, below the clouds, in subfreeezing temperatures. Rain falls above you, where it’s warmer, and the supercooled water hits your airplane and sticks as ice. Been there, done that, it sucked. First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating? Icing conditions are fairly predictable. Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy. Simple as that . . . right?
Wrong. Very, very wrong. The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing. Period. If you are flying in clouds and the temperature is below freezing, you are taking your chances whether icing is predicted or not. We used to have a regular on this newsgroup who nearly got himself and his family killed by taking off into such conditions in an underpowered light single when there was no icing forecast. That’s not to say people don’t do it – but every year we lose a few who do, and scare the bejeezus out of many more. In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip. Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s
ice. If there are clouds and it’s below freezing, there may be. You won’t know until you fly through them. You certainly won’t know days in advance. Further, with a typical light single, once you start building ice your options become VERY limited. Here’s a rule of thumb – if at your cruising altitude you can’t manage a 500 fpm climb, then odds are if you start picking up ice you can’t escape it by going up. Your options are going down (better hope it gets above freezing above the MEA) or turning around and going back to where the ice wasn’t building (better hope the weather hasn’t changed – it may be no better behind than ahead). Icing is poorly understood. Icing forecasts are largely experimental. If you go into the clouds at subfreezing temperatures and are not prepared to deal with icing at any time, well, you’re just kidding yourself. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions. They are all mutually exclusive
NO THEY ARE NOT. Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael
Response:
I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds. It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough. For example 2000′ overcast, 6 degrees C on the ground, will usually be above freezing right up to the cloud deck. In the clouds, it is freezing. Tops are high, say 10000AGL. Fairly common actually. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating? Icing conditions are fairly predictable. Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy. Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip. Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations? There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions. They are all mutually exclusive and you won’t know anything concrete until a couple days before the trip. Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps? (even though there is no warm front in the area) Naw! It’s best to no go if your chances are not good for reaching your required alternate or if your credit card is maxed out (a healthy credit card is a FAR regulation case you didn’t know) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice. (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) It doesn’t. There’s snow. There’s rain. There’s bad visibility then there’s icing conditions. All depends on the moisture content and temperature and dewpoint. You can have cold and wet without ice and ice without cold. The question to me would be, can I get to a decent alternate or not? If not, you don’t go. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180
Response:
I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182. I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be. With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider! I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations? Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps? (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice. (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff. … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z. Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR. But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)
Response:
Question:
I just wanted to know what the law says about me giving way a few bottles of homebrew to my friends. Thanks, Steve — // Stephen W. Berrick Voice: (301) 982-3700 // // Research and Data Systems Corporation (301) 982-3748 // // 7855 Walker Drive, Suite 460 Fax: (301) 982-3749 //
Response:
: I just wanted to know what the law says about me giving way a few : bottles of homebrew to my friends. Each state is a bit different, but most places, as long as you don’t sell it in any way, giving a few out to friends is perfectly OK. And going to competitions with your wonderful concotions doesn’t need any license either (as far as I know, anyway). — Bloomington, IN 47406 (812) 855-1415 —- All opinions are my own — you know the drill. —– "I could get much more work done if I had a bigger wastebasket." "Deja brew — we have all been beer before." "Use the Brew, Luke."
Response:
The law says relax…well you know the rest. Please keep in mind that this post is from an outlaw. Matt
Response:
: I just wanted to know what the law says about me giving way a few : bottles of homebrew to my friends. Each state is a bit different, but most places, as long as you don’t sell it in any way, giving a few out to friends is perfectly OK. And going to competitions with your wonderful concotions doesn’t need any license either (as far as I know, anyway).
Careful here. Steve, you should only trust legal advice from an attorney which you hires, but… I don’t have it in front of me, but my memory of the FEDERAL regulation that permits homebrewing is that the brew may [legally] be consumed in the household in which it is produced. In addition, the brew may be taken to clubs and competitions for sampling. Further, my interpretation is that giving beer to your friends is a "gray area." In other words, the regulation is not expicit and can be interpreted either way. I would like to point out that I believe in some states (notably Alabama) homebrewing is not legal at all. Does that mean if you give your friends some brews that the ATF or the state police will be breaking down your door. I doubt it. I give away brews or take them to party’s all the time. But if you give it away for some service that you would normally pay money for , or are intending to run for political office, or be a presidential appointee, then I would recommend caution. The bottom line is the only way to find out the answer to Steve’s question for sure is to hire an attorney to find out. –Russ
Response:
ltpsun2.gsfc.nasa.gov): Each state is a bit different, but most places, as long as you don’t sell it in any way, giving a few out to friends is perfectly OK. And going to competitions with your wonderful concotions doesn’t need any license either (as far as I know, anyway).
Here’s another for all the jailhouse lawyers out there: Can I *donate* homebrew to my favorite non-profit groups? I’m a member of a group that seems to do much of its fundraising at the chapter level through raffles and auctions of donated merchandise (hint: when I’m done here, I’m headed over to rec.outdoors.fishing.fly). In other chapters, members have donated homebrew, cleverly named, which the chapter then auctions or raffles off and keeps the proceedes. I see at least three knotty issues: o Can I donate my beer? o Can my chapter make money by raffling or auctioning it? o Can I (and this is r-e-a-l-l-y a stretch) take any tax deduction, even if just for the raw materials? Has anyone looked into this, or are you willing to take a wild guess and get me into real trouble with the IRS, BATF, and other assorted authority figures?
Response:
OK, how about this one then: Is it legal to serve homebrew to someone in your home if they are under 21 but over legal drinking age for the country they are visiting from… Yep, this came up as a real issue. –arne
Response:
AT ATOK, how about this one then: AT ATIs it legal to serve homebrew to someone in your home if they are under AT21 but over legal drinking age for the country they are visiting from… AT ATYep, this came up as a real issue. AT AT–arne Easy Arne, The issue here is not homebrew but rather serving alcohol to an underaged person. Each state is going to be different, but the home country of the underaged person will (without exception I’d be willing to bet) be irrelevant. A person "lives and dies" according to the local law. Here in Ohio, the only circumstances under which an underaged person may drink alcoholic beverages is when he/she is "accompanied by a parent, spouse who is not an underaged person, or legal guardian, or [when] the beer or intoxicating liquor is given by a physician in the regular line of his practice or given for established religious purposes." Ohio Rev. Code Sec. 4301.69(E). I hope this clears it up for you. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: : Jeff Pyatt Cincinnati, OH : : : : "Times like this make me wish I could fly!" : ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: … Reality is an illusion caused by lack of alcohol. — . TLX v3.30 . — . SLMR 2.1 .
Response:
The bottom line is the only way to find out the answer to Steve’s question for sure is to hire an attorney to find out.
And then only trust his/her advice as far as you can throw him/her! Matt
Response:
Here’s another for all the jailhouse lawyers out there: Can I *donate* homebrew to my favorite non-profit groups? I’m a member of a group that seems to do much of its fundraising at the chapter level through raffles and auctions of donated merchandise (hint: when I’m done here, I’m headed over to rec.outdoors.fishing.fly). In other chapters, members have donated homebrew, cleverly named, which the chapter then auctions or raffles off and keeps the proceedes. I see at least three knotty issues: o Can I donate my beer? o Can my chapter make money by raffling or auctioning it? o Can I (and this is r-e-a-l-l-y a stretch) take any tax deduction, even if just for the raw materials? Has anyone looked into this, or are you willing to take a wild guess and get me into real trouble with the IRS, BATF, and other assorted authority figures?
I imagine that this would vary by state. In MA, as of 1992, I found mention of donating wine to auctions, yet not beer (homebrewed or otherwise). This may not sound like the best idea, but I would feign ignorance and raffle/auction the beer as a vitamin supplement. .marc — Human temporal perceptions are completely inadequate, all the really cool beings hang out in fast forward.
Response:
OK, how about this one then: Is it legal to serve homebrew to someone in your home if they are under 21 but over legal drinking age for the country they are visiting from…
I think this depends on the locality and the fact that the alcoholic beverage is homebrew, and the underage person foreign are irrelevent. While most Europenas consider this American law to be utterly ridiculous, it is worth remembering that the USA also had prohibition, and possession of small amount of certain chemicals is a more serious crime in many states that assault and rape and stuff. I think it may stem from too much democracy, with democracy meaning the right of people who are intereseted and give a shit to run for government office, and in general these hitlerwannabees get their rocks off by restricting freedom. A friend who lives in Palatine, IL informed me that the city of Arlington Heights recently passed a law making it illegal to give any alcoholic beverages to anybody under 21. I guess they’ll back this up with East German type quizzing of kids in school. Don’t wrroy about legality. Worry about what you think is right and wrong and if these don’t quite gel, worry about whether you can get caught. My impression here is that Americans seem to be way too concerned about legalily rather than morality. How often do you hear a politician defending his corrupt behaviour by saying he did nothing illegal? ‘There was a master come unto the earth, | Ulick Stafford, born in the holy land of Indiana, | Dept of Chemical Engineering, in the mystical hills east of Fort Wayne’.| Notre Dame, IN 46556
Response:
: OK, how about this one then: : Is it legal to serve homebrew to someone in your home if they are under : 21 but over legal drinking age for the country they are visiting from… Would it be legal for you to supply him with drugs if he was Dutch? N’Yawk, N’Yawk =o&o
Response:
OK, how about this one then: Is it legal to serve homebrew to someone in your home if they are under 21 but over legal drinking age for the country they are visiting from…
Probably not, but then how would anyone know? In general everyone must obey the laws of the country they are in. If I go to Sinapore and vandlize some cars, can I avoid caning if I’m from the US? –Russ
Response:
OK, how about this one then: Is it legal to serve homebrew to someone in your home if they are under 21 but over legal drinking age for the country they are visiting from… Yep, this came up as a real issue.
only if you are in the country they are visiting from… — WA9BVE | No free man shall ever be de-barred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain their right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government. – Thomas Jefferson
Response:
OK, how about this one then: Is it legal to serve homebrew to someone in your home if they are under 21 but over legal drinking age for the country they are visiting from… Yep, this came up as a real issue. –arne
In Australia it is legal to serve alcohol to anyone in your own home as long as you have the permision of whoever is responsible for them. Although I am sure there are limits to this …I really don’t know….
Response:
Don’t wrroy about legality. Worry about what you think is right and wrong and if these don’t quite gel, worry about whether you can get caught. My impression here is that Americans seem to be way too concerned about legalily rather than morality. How often do you hear a politician defending his corrupt behaviour by saying he did nothing illegal?
Sorry to waste bandwidth on a not strictly related to brewing thread, but I must say a hearty "Well said" to Ulick. I am not sure I’ve ever heard my own feelings put so succinctly (certainly, I have never done so well). Of course, one must always keep in mind what to do if one does get caught doing what the law considers inappopriate . . . (no officer, those are shitake mushrooms – oh, yes, they are quite a gourmet delicacy – here, have a few – don’t worry about that strange dizzy sensation . . . 
Seriously, a person is not likely to get hassled for giving alcohol to children or under-aged guests in the privacy of their own home, unless they are actually throwing an underage drinking party. My parents always permitted me to drink wine with them since I was 9 or so (probably would have let me try it earlier if I had asked) and I expect to do the same with my kids, whenever I have them. Space Processor Software Engineering | Loral Federal Systems, Manassas, VA | (703) 367-6171
Response:
I am not a tax lawyer, so can only offer my own opinion. I work for a well known agency of the Treasury, and my interpretation is that any acceptance of remuneration in exchange for untaxed alcoholic beverage is illegal. No matter how you disguise the transfer, even involving a third party who may be tax exempt, you have exchanged homebrew for economic gain. That is a NO NO! For a legal opinion that might count, consult a tax attorney or contact the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms through the Treasury Dept. Your own state’s Alcoholic Beverage Control Board (or whatever they call themselves) will also give you an opinion. Remember, opinions, no matter how impressive the credentials of the giver, are only opinions. The real test comes when you actually go to court.
Response:
Here’s another for all the jailhouse lawyers out there: Can I *donate* homebrew to my favorite non-profit groups? I’m a member of a group that seems to do much of its fundraising at the chapter level through raffles and auctions of donated merchandise (hint: when I’m done here, I’m headed over to rec.outdoors.fishing.fly). In other chapters, members have donated homebrew, cleverly named, which the chapter then auctions or raffles off and keeps the proceedes. I see at least three knotty issues:
If anyone is familiar with the Society for Creative Anacronism at an event in the Boston Area we had an auction a while ago to raise money for our group. The action was conducted by two master brewers. And the "Box" that the brewers donated went for quite a bit. Zach (for more info on the SCA e-mail me)
Response:
