Question:

All these other folks have helpful comments (well, most of them). After you’ve digested those, try this: why do the moons of Mars go in the "wrong" direction? I didn’t know that Mars has any moons, I do know that it has the largest volcano in solar system Olympus Mons or something like that any way.  Anyhow back to the martian moons, when you say go in the wrong direction do you mean their orbital paths are clockwise from a northern perspective?

Yep. Demios & Phobos. From our perspective where the Moon goes (slowly) right to left, the two bitty Martian moons (probably don’t create shadows at night as we’re accustomed to) go rather rapidly – one could see the apparent movement with a little patience – go left to right. Pete — If the assumptions are wrong, the conclusions aren’t likely to be very good.    R. E. Machol

Response:

Why was this initial cloud in a disk shape,  and why was it rotating?

Because it had angular momentum. (Watch out for Wayno’s nausea spasm!) — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All these other folks have helpful comments (well, most of them). After you’ve digested those, try this: why do the moons of Mars go in the "wrong" direction? I didn’t know that Mars has any moons, I do know that it has the largest volcano in solar system Olympus Mons or something like that any way. Anyhow back to the martian moons, when you say go in the wrong direction do you mean their orbital paths are clockwise from a northern perspective? Yep. Demios & Phobos. From our perspective where the Moon goes (slowly) right to left, the two bitty Martian moons (probably don’t create shadows at night as we’re accustomed to) go rather rapidly – one could see the apparent movement with a little patience – go left to right.

Yes that’s strange and doesn’t fit in with the initial rotating disc theory at all.  Do you think that Mars aquired them in later life?  If they are orbiting that fast then they are probably smaller than our moon.  Do they interfere with each other in a gravitational sense?  I assume that they are in ecliptic plane too, so if they are orbiting at different heights from the planet’s surface they will pass close to each other now and then.  Could they possibly be 2 halves (or parts) of a small moon that was hit by a passing asteroid?

Response:

why do the moons of Mars go in the "wrong" direction?

From our perspective where the Moon goes (slowly) right to left, the two bitty Martian moons (probably don’t create shadows at night as we’re accustomed to) go rather rapidly – one could see the apparent movement with a little patience – go left to right.

    god is ambidextrious, i reckon. wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did the early sun pull in a cloud of dust into a giant saturn-like ring of orbiting debris which would later congeal to form the present day planets,  or is there something else that I am missing? Well, yes and no.  Initially there was a rotating disk of dust and gas. The sun formed at the center of the disk, and later the planets and other orbiting bodies formed in orbits around the proto-sun. Why was this initial cloud in a disk shape,  and why was it rotating?

Response:

Why was this initial cloud in a disk shape,  and why was it rotating?

Angular momentum. TL MC

Response:

    god is ambidextrious, i reckon.

Nahh, assuming the existence of such a creature, devious at best. TL MC

Response:

Did the early sun pull in a cloud of dust into a giant saturn-like ring of orbiting debris which would later congeal to form the present day planets,  or is there something else that I am missing? Well, yes and no.  Initially there was a rotating disk of dust and gas. The sun formed at the center of the disk, and later the planets and other orbiting bodies formed in orbits around the proto-sun.

Why was this initial cloud in a disk shape,  and why was it rotating?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I reckon someone on this NG might be able to answer this. Over the last few weeks, I have been checking out the recent planetary alignment  (Mercury, Venus, Mars, Saturn?) I can see all out (except mercury) of my skylight window in the attic ~ where I have my PC.  In the last few weeks I have developed an interest as to what our solar system is, and how was it formed to reveal itself to our eyes as it presently does…snip..? All these other folks have helpful comments (well, most of them). After you’ve digested those, try this: why do the moons of Mars go in the "wrong" direction?

I didn’t know that Mars has any moons, I do know that it has the largest volcano in solar system Olympus Mons or something like that any way.  Anyhow back to the martian moons, when you say go in the wrong direction do you mean their orbital paths are clockwise from a northern perspective?

Response:

Do you think it will make the fish bite better?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I reckon someone on this NG might be able to answer this. Over the last few weeks, I have been checking out the recent planetary alignment  (Mercury, Venus, Mars, Saturn?) I can see all out (except mercury) of my skylight window in the attic ~

Response:

Slarty Bartfast made them that way, It’s all in the book.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I reckon someone on this NG might be able to answer this. Over the last few weeks, I have been checking out the recent planetary alignment  (Mercury, Venus, Mars, Saturn?) I can see all out (except mercury) of my skylight window in the attic ~ where I have my PC.  In the last few weeks I have developed an interest as to what our solar system is, and how was it formed to reveal itself to our eyes as it presently does. My Psion 5MX has a program called Solun and predicts the positions  of the celestial bodies to an impressive display.  I find out that all planets (except pluto), the sun  & our moon form a plane called the "ecliptic".  I can understand why the moon orbits the earth keeping in between the gravitational pulls of the earth & sun  (I imagine that Jupiter’s moons do likewise), but I wonder why all of the other planets (except Pluto) do as well.  I know that the planets all orbit in the same direction (anticlockwise from my NH perspective), but why in the same plane?  I wonder about the directions all being the same being the key to the formation of the ecliptic plane.  Did the early sun pull in a cloud of dust into a giant saturn-like ring of orbiting debris which would later congeal to form the present day planets,  or is there something else that I am missing?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I reckon someone on this NG might be able to answer this. Over the last few weeks, I have been checking out the recent planetary alignment  (Mercury, Venus, Mars, Saturn?) I can see all out (except mercury) of my skylight window in the attic ~ where I have my PC.  In the last few weeks I have developed an interest as to what our solar system is, and how was it formed to reveal itself to our eyes as it presently does…snip..? All these other folks have helpful comments (well, most of them). After you’ve digested those, try this: why do the moons of Mars go in the "wrong" direction? Pete — If the assumptions are wrong, the conclusions aren’t likely to be very good.    R. E. Machol

Sigh . . . . . . . I just wanted to go fly fishing on my planet . . . now I learn my universe has issues . . . who would of thunk it?  (as you are aware from my post, certainly not me) Going to the Arkansas River in central Colorado next week to get involved in the infamous "Mother’s Day Caddis Hatch". We eat them saut

Question:

….There is nothing more fun than tying flies from a Pheasant skin.

"Wolfgang wrote Geez Ernie, I don’t know quite how to put this Wolfgang "She said, that ain’t the way to have fun, son"

Wolfie, Just wait until you are 70 before commenting. Ernie

Wolfie, you don’t have to be 70 to agree with Ernie!  You can loose it by 48 too! — Padishar Creel "What do we live for if it is not to make life less difficult to each other."  – George Eliot

Response:

irridescent body feathers,go to make up a Jack Gartside pattern, the Sparrow. A very versatile subsurface fly, can be nymph or minnow.                             Tom Littleton

Use the reddish colored ones for a rusty sparrow. Heavily weighted it is a great crawfish pattern. Fish it with the old Heave it and leave it technique. Everything on this fly moves with very little current. Big Dale – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Do you people know any pattern that requires pheasant feathers, other than the tail? Cheers, Peter.

I tie a nymph for lakes with the marabou type fluff from the rump feather and a dubbed body color to match the fluff with a gold rib. Looks like a really dark hares ear with a fluffy tail. Simple pattern to tie and is quite effective. Darin

Response:

This is simply not true.  Mobile fibres such as marabou, polar bear hear, cat fur, and several others will simply not behave like this.  If a fly tied with such fibres is placed in water and left immobile, the fibres tend to fill out to their full volume,and wave around with every nuance of the current.  When pulled through the water, the fibres compress as a result of the ensuing water resistance, and many such flies assume a streamlined, torpedo like appearance in such circumstances.

Hmm in my experience Polar bear is very stiff and brittle. THe attractive thing about polar bear is that it is translucent. Tying streamers with polar bear creates a baitfish imitation that is translucent, much like many baitfish. I find it nothing like maribou, and I had to promise to leave the damn cats alone Ernie,  There is a pattern up here in Maine, called the muddler hopper that uses those nicely patterned feathers from the back of the pheasant as a wing. essentially the pattern is a muddler headed hopper pattern, very effective and we fish them like dalhberg divers once they begin to sink. Brookies love ‘em Flyfish – countdown to the clave!

Response:

Hmm in my experience Polar bear is very stiff and brittle. THe attractive thing about polar bear is that it is translucent.

One word: Icelandic Sheep.  OK, 2. Regards, Jeff

Response:

The blue rump fleathers can be used as eyes on baitfish imitations or wound as hackles on soft hackle flies. Tom ‘for the children of the world’  is a non-profit organization in the state of Washington that aids the child victims of the Chernobyl nuclear disaster.  Visit our website at: http://www.forworldschildren.org – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip Various short but passionate affairs with some materials, very often originally based on nothing more concrete than a desire to avoid wasting them, the plumulaceous base feathers from the common pheasant being a case in point, with rather disappointing results, have somewhat dampened my enthusiasm for experimentation in this regard. A hunting friend just gave me a complete pheasant skin to tie flies from. Apart from the tail feathers I use for various nymphs, I have not used pheasant  for any flies. Do you people know any pattern that requires pheasant feathers, other than the tail? Cheers, Peter.

–

Response:

This is simply not true.  Mobile fibres such as marabou, polar bear hear, cat fur, and several others will simply not behave like this.  If a fly tied with such fibres is placed in water and left immobile, the fibres tend to fill out to their full volume,and wave around with every nuance of the current.  When pulled through the water, the fibres compress as a result of the ensuing water resistance, and many such flies assume a streamlined, torpedo like appearance in such circumstances. When fished "sink and draw", that is to say, pulled, and then stopped, and then pulled again, such fibre bunches  tend to "pulse", as they are alternately compressed, and then released from compression. Presumably it is the apparent indication of life imparted by such "pulsing" and other movement, which causes many fish to attack them.  When fishing downstream ,on a tight line in heavy current for instance, such "pulsing" may be only slight, or even non existent, as the current is never weak enough to allow the fibres to fluff out to their full volume, and the flies retain a streamlined shape irrespective of manipulation by the rod and line. In heavy currents etc , other more robust, or springy, fibres must be used to achieve such effects.  The flies must be tied to suit the circumstances. Failure to appreciate this quite simple fact, will result in less fish being caught Some flies may have a particular shape or appearance in air, but it is not sensible to assume that they will retain such an appearance in water, which is quite obviously a completely different medium.  Their BEHAVIOUR, or FUNCTION, if you prefer,  may also be completely different.This is not entirely dependent on the materials used in their construction, but also the way in which they are used, and under what circumstances.  Wetting a fly and then looking at it in air is not a viable test, it must be completely immersed in water, and its various properties tested, if one wishes to know how it will behave under similar circumstances. Some things may be inferred from experience, or previous knowledge of certain fibres, without these tests, but only such tests are proof positive. You may check this quite easily, it is not necessary to take my word for it, just fill a sink with water and pull a fly tied like this through it. Then pull some others through as well, you will notice massive differences in their respective behaviour immediately. Exactly the same applies for soft hackled wet flies, which is why the patterns mentioned, when tied in this specific way, are not suitable for upstream fishing, or at least not as suitable as others.  Streamlined nymphal shapes, with a translucent, waving or "wriggling" body effect, as you put it, will only be apparent when the flies are pulled through the water, or at least held in the current, which is basically the same thing. Compressive fibre streamlining occurs as a direct result of water resistance. Without this they will not compress. Water resistance forces the fibres backwards, veiling the body, and this will then be an excellent imitation of an active swimming nymph. Or a fish for instance, in the case of some lures etc. This will only occur if the fly is pulled through the water, ( retrieved), or fished downstream on a tight line. In  ALL OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES the fly will not assume such an appearance. There are many variables here, and one may pursue such studies into realms of detail far beyond the scope or interest of most anglers. Various fibres behave in various ways, and there are a considerable number of excellent and valid reasons why most of these flies are tied with specific feathers. While it may be true that flies tied with somewhat less attention to detail, and with substitute feathers, still catch fish, it is my experience, and that of many others, that they are nowhere near as effective as the original patterns tied correctly.   If as you say you have noticed no difference, then that forces me to a number of conclusions. The first one is, if it does not matter as you say, then why are you arguing so vehemently against it? The second one is, as I know this to be an easily demonstrable fact, I am bound to assume that you have not tried it, as otherwise you could not possibly have a differing opinion. This subject is simply not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of known fact. The third one is, as I already stated, the originals, tied ( and fished! ),correctly, catch more fish. In order to know this you must have either tried it, or at least have it on hearsay that this is so. As you have obviously not tried the originals, or even apparently heard any reliable evidence to support this idea, you are in no position to argue as to its veracity. Fourthly, ease of tying is not my main criterion when tying flies, in fact it is not usually even a criterion at all. As an argument in favour of using less suitable materials, it is pure nonsense. If you can not tie flies using these materials, either due to a lack of manipulatory skill, or simply because you are unable to obtain them, then that is most unfortunate for you, but it is not a valid reason for arguing against others doing so. My flies are tied purely to catch fish, and they do so, with remarkable regularity and consistency. I do not really give a tinker

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Terry, I would have to disagree with you that an "Average" flyfisherman/woman couldn’t benefit with a cane rod. I have taken beginning fly fishers and taught them how to cast on my 5 wt. G-Loomis and after an hour of fishing had them cast my 4 wt. bamboo (made by Peter McVey of Corbit Lake, BC). In almost all cases the new caster was able to cast easier and could find the "Sweet Spot" where the rod will almost cast by itself (Something I have never felt in any of the graphite rods I have cast).  Will these people purchase a bamboo rod later in their fishing lives? I don’t know. I do know that my wife will probably end up with one sooner or later (Of course she ends up using mine all the time anyway!). Don’t get me wrong, I love my 7′ 3wt Lamiglass graphite II rod. I also love my RPLXi 9′ 8wt Sage and my G-Loomis Premiere 9′ 5wt rods. But none of them have that "Sweet Spot" that just puts the line out there with so little effort and such precision as bamboo does. Until you have felt that you will continue to use these wonderfully overpriced graphite rods. Gary Johnson For the average angler I would have to say that Sage is more or less right. Most of your average flyfisherman are not particularly good casters and a cane rod would be wasted on them. Fly presentation and cosmetics are what makes cane fun. Cane cannot compete with composites for pure performance for the I have been away from ROFF for too long!  Things like work, kids, and the business kept getting in the way.  I have missed out on too much at ROFF though! For the cane rodbuilders in the group, thought you might be interested in an article I wrote about a recent Sage video.. take a look at the article and the video and let me know what you think! http://flyfishing.about.com/library/weekly/aa072000a.htm I would love to know Mr. Gherke’s comments too! Ian Scott http://flyfishing.about.com/

_____  Well said Gary. — George G. Bastard Bamboo Fly Rods http://www.gink.com/ http://www.gink.com/chat

Response:

The no-questions-asked return policy *must* account for a good chunk of that.  And of course, advertising costs.  See www.dorber.com for their ideas on the matter (they will not accept a return if you abused the rod (car door), but will accept tradeins for prorated value (based on condition).  I believe Bruce H bought one of these rods. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sage is just an example. I don’t want to stir up an old discussion about price/quality comparisons (NO I DON’T!), but for me 490 USD is still a ridiculous price for a rod. YMMV, of course. Herman Especially for a mass produced rod. The high end graphite rod prices are way out of line for what you get. Willi

– Regards, Jeff Before you buy.

Response:

Most definately a learner will benefit from a slower action rod that they can ‘feel’ more easily, but there are more economical ways of achieving that than using bamboo, surely? steve

Response:

Bamboo is an outdated, anchronistic material. If you like the look and feel, fine, but for pure performance it just doesn’t have it.

I absolutely agree. In fact, bamboo rods remind me of Apple notebooks. Underpowered but extremely cache. –Steve

Response:

Most definately a learner will benefit from a slower action rod that they can ‘feel’ more easily, but there are more economical ways of achieving that than using bamboo, surely?

There sure are. Find an old (like 15 years) Walton Powell graphite rod. Bamboo is an outdated, anchronistic material. If you like the look and feel, fine, but for pure performance it just doesn’t have it. Personally, I prefer faster rods for 90% of my fishing, even when I’m throwing weight. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Terry, I would have to disagree with you that an "Average" flyfisherman/woman couldn’t benefit with a cane rod. I have taken beginning fly fishers and taught them how to cast on my 5 wt. G-Loomis and after an hour of fishing had them cast my 4 wt. bamboo (made by Peter McVey of Corbit Lake, BC). In almost all cases the new caster was able to cast easier and could find the "Sweet Spot" where the rod will almost cast by itself (Something I have never felt in any of the graphite rods I have cast).  Will these people purchase a bamboo rod later in their fishing lives? I don’t know. I do know that my wife will probably end up with one sooner or later (Of course she ends up using mine all the time anyway!). Don’t get me wrong, I love my 7′ 3wt Lamiglass graphite II rod. I also love my RPLXi 9′ 8wt Sage and my G-Loomis Premiere 9′ 5wt rods. But none of them have that "Sweet Spot" that just puts the line out there with so little effort and such precision as bamboo does. Until you have felt that you will continue to use these wonderfully overpriced graphite rods. Gary Johnson

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For the average angler I would have to say that Sage is more or less right. Most of your average flyfisherman are not particularly good casters and a cane rod would be wasted on them. Fly presentation and cosmetics are what makes cane fun. Cane cannot compete with composites for pure performance for the I have been away from ROFF for too long!  Things like work, kids, and the business kept getting in the way.  I have missed out on too much at ROFF though! For the cane rodbuilders in the group, thought you might be interested in an article I wrote about a recent Sage video.. take a look at the article and the video and let me know what you think! http://flyfishing.about.com/library/weekly/aa072000a.htm I would love to know Mr. Gherke’s comments too! Ian Scott http://flyfishing.about.com/

Response:

Sage is just an example. I don’t want to stir up an old discussion about price/quality comparisons (NO I DON’T!), but for me 490 USD is still a ridiculous price for a rod. YMMV, of course. Herman

Especially for a mass produced rod. The high end graphite rod prices are way out of line for what you get. Willi

Response:

I will be hitting the Grand again, but I also want to head off in search of some bass too.  I know a few small hidden places not far from where I used to live near Grand Valley.. might give those a shot. We really should see if we can find a day we are both available, soon!

fer sure.  In fact, Grand Valley is where my son and I will be exploring tomorrow. I’ll probably post the usual trip report. Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

I picked up a tube of your wax actually, a few weeks ago.  I like it, George.  My son, who is 12 years old, just got into fly tying in a HUGE way, and wants to trade me his little disk of wax for my Gehrke’s tube.  I can’t believe you have a 12 year old fan! <grin I read your stint with interest and I do have a few constructive comments to offer, but at this time I decline for the reason above. I’ll let you know when the links go back up..

Email me your son’s mailing address please, Ian. — Mr.Gink "the saga continues"   http://www.gink.com/

Response:

I watched the video. It was interesting to see the process of building a rod. I do think they are a bit disingenious slamming bamboo rods. Until this year I would have probably said, oh yeah, see what I mean about bamboo. I recently got an old shakespeare bamboo off ebay that astonished me by casting a good 70 feet of line in the backyard, missing a guide and all the others are rusty as hell (I just couldn’t resist casting it before rendering it down to re-wrap). My sage 5wt doesn’t perform that well for me, nor does the 7wt. Maybe I was meant to have a bamboo all along. I do agree that bamboo rods are about tradition, they are a thing of beauty, each has it’s own feel, speed and special grace that a production graphite rod, just doesn’t capture. But for the masses graphite is still a good buy. Flyfish

Response:

______  Well Ion, the name is Gehrke, please and I see you are aware of our art work but you fail to list us as a manufacturer of fine Bamboo Fly Rods? I read your stint with interest and I do have a few constructive comments to offer, but at this time I decline for the reason above.  

The link is there now, George.  If you have a better page to link to, please let me know.   Thanks.  Would love to see your comments, either here or at the message board on the site! Ian

Response:

For the average angler I would have to say that Sage is more or less right. Most of your average flyfisherman are not particularly good casters and a cane rod would be wasted on them. Fly presentation and cosmetics are what makes cane fun. Cane cannot compete with composites for pure performance for the   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have been away from ROFF for too long!  Things like work, kids, and the business kept getting in the way.  I have missed out on too much at ROFF though! For the cane rodbuilders in the group, thought you might be interested in an article I wrote about a recent Sage video.. take a look at the article and the video and let me know what you think! http://flyfishing.about.com/library/weekly/aa072000a.htm I would love to know Mr. Gherke’s comments too! Ian Scott http://flyfishing.about.com/

Response:

For the average angler Sage is waaay out of their league… pricewise. For the average angler a decent rod that just does what it’s supposed to do is more than enough. Ok, at least for me it is.. Herman For the average angler I would have to say that Sage is more or less right. Most of your average flyfisherman are not particularly good casters and a cane rod would be wasted on them. Fly presentation and cosmetics are what makes cane fun. Cane cannot compete with composites for pure performance for the

– Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

For the average angler Sage is waaay out of their league… pricewise. …

For the average angler across the pond Sage is ridiculously expensive, but here in North America they’re right in line with the other high end rods. The John Norris of Penrith catalogue lists a Sage 690XP at 441 pounds sterling or about $660 US on a good day, the same rod sells here in the states for $490 US. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Sage is just an example. I don’t want to stir up an old discussion about price/quality comparisons (NO I DON’T!), but for me 490 USD is still a ridiculous price for a rod. YMMV, of course. Herman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For the average angler Sage is waaay out of their league… pricewise. … For the average angler across the pond Sage is ridiculously expensive, but here in North America they’re right in line with the other high end rods. The John Norris of Penrith catalogue lists a Sage 690XP at 441 pounds sterling or about $660 US on a good day, the same rod sells here in the states for $490 US. — Ken Fortenberry

– Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

Terry,    I don’t understand why a cane rod is wasted on the "average fly fisherman" more than any other fine rod would be.  Today there are more expensive rods being "wasted" on mediocre casters because they have money and want the very best.  Expensive rods don’t make good casters, only practice can do that. Ernie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For the average angler I would have to say that Sage is more or less right. Most of your average flyfisherman are not particularly good casters and a cane rod would be wasted on them. Fly presentation and cosmetics are what makes cane fun. Cane cannot compete with composites for pure performance for the I have been away from ROFF for too long!  Things like work, kids, and the business kept getting in the way.  I have missed out on too much at ROFF though! For the cane rodbuilders in the group, thought you might be interested in an article I wrote about a recent Sage video.. take a look at the article and the video and let me know what you think! http://flyfishing.about.com/library/weekly/aa072000a.htm I would love to know Mr. Gherke’s comments too! Ian Scott http://flyfishing.about.com/

Response:

I think that Sage is basically right, for pure performance in the hands of the average flyfisherman composites cannot be beat. Cane is about presentation and tradition and would be wasted on many of the foul mouthed cowboys on this list that flyfish because it is trendy Making cane rods affordable for all flyfishermen is a sterling idea but the thought of one particular guy (his reply to the not sorry posting) with an almost hand made cane rod  giving it some verbal because he cannot lay out the whole line is amusing. Terry     – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have been away from ROFF for too long!  Things like work, kids, and the business kept getting in the way.  I have missed out on too much at ROFF though! For the cane rodbuilders in the group, thought you might be interested in an article I wrote about a recent Sage video.. take a look at the article and the video and let me know what you think! http://flyfishing.about.com/library/weekly/aa072000a.htm I would love to know Mr. Gherke’s comments too! Ian Scott http://flyfishing.about.com/

Response:

______  Well Ion, the name is Gehrke, please and I see you are aware of our art work but you fail to list us as a manufacturer of fine Bamboo Fly Rods?

Well, hot spit!  I was sure I had Gehrke in my spell checker!! Sorry about the typo, Mr. G.  :) I have you listed at the bottom of the article in question, under ‘Related Links’.  I used to have you listed when you had all that information on the Bastard Rod Company, but then the links seemed to go dead and I couldn’t figure out where you put the pages.  Goes to show you about these rod makers and wax producers when they design their websites and re-design them..   I picked up a tube of your wax actually, a few weeks ago.  I like it, George.  My son, who is 12 years old, just got into fly tying in a HUGE way, and wants to trade me his little disk of wax for my Gehrke’s tube.  I can’t believe you have a 12 year old fan! <grin I read your stint with interest and I do have a few constructive comments to offer, but at this time I decline for the reason above.  

I’ll let you know when the links go back up..

Response:

Wondered where you ran off to.

Been using your mini browns and Larry Medina’s turkey tail nymphs on the Grand.  I should take my camera more often.  The problem is, I never catch anything when I have the camera worth photographing.  When I don’t have it, I have lots of tales to tell, but no evidence! I tried this video URL and the thing will download but not run.  First it had me download a MS viewer then RealPlayer beta 8 and the damn thing still just sits.  I’m running IE 5.5 with all mod cons and the Sage Video page is full of broken GIFs – great site – NOT!

Hm.  Not sure what to say to help you out on that. Anyway, I’ll read the article without the video and post my appropriately rude comments.

I will look forward to them   Have you been out much yourself on the Grand lately?  Or anyplace else for that matter?  I am on Vacation for 3 weeks, and thinking about some spots to take my sons fishing with me.  The eldest (12 year old) is right into flyfishing.. the other two are still a little more comfortable with worms and such right now.

Response:

Typical – after a couple of reboots and playing with the video settings, I finally have a working video. This was fascinating for me as though I’ve seen snippets of graphite rod making, I’ve never seen the whole enchilada. I can’t figure out why Gerry is going on about cane rods.  It’s not like they’re some major competion for him (or does the resurgence have him worried?)  Of course cane is heavier but some of the tapers being used now along with good lines, can produce amazing performance.   Ted Knott let me cast a brand new 9 wt. 3 pce. 8′ 6" cane he had designed. Though heavier, it had tremedous power and I’d have no qualms about spending a day on the water with it.   Gerry’s barking up the wrong tree. Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Been using your mini browns and Larry Medina’s turkey tail nymphs on the Grand.  I should take my camera more often.  The problem is, I never catch anything when I have the camera worth photographing.  When I don’t have it, I have lots of tales to tell, but no evidence!

The Grand has been running off colour a lot of late – best conditions for the mini. – Always the way.  Leave the camera in the truck and Mr. Monster Brown obliges. Hm.  Not sure what to say to help you out on that. Anyway, I’ll read the article without the video and post my appropriately rude comments.

Got it working. I will look forward to them   Have you been out much yourself on the Grand lately?  Or anyplace else for that matter?  I am on Vacation for 3 weeks, and thinking about some spots to take my sons fishing with me.  The eldest (12 year old) is right into flyfishing.. the other two are still a little more comfortable with worms and such right now.

I’m starting a one week vacation right now but much of it will be taken up by my MA thesis.  Last week, we tried the Glen Morris area (look back a week for the Scott, Greg and Peter Show post) but nothing but tiddlers.  My son and his friend just got back from the Grand, Cedar Run – one brown for him and 5 for Adam.  Good luck with the kids, I’m just introducing my 21 year old daughter to the game.  She was a real hot angler before puberty (worms mostly) but you know what happens when they hit their teens – boys, clothes, music, makeup, etc. etc.  Bronte Creek in Lowville Park is a great place to take a budding fly fisher, – willing baby steelies and lots of easy water and plenty of room.  Duffins Creek at the east end is about the same.  Have fun and let me know if you can get out for a serious day on the Grand. Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Good luck with the kids, I’m just introducing my 21 year old daughter to the game.  She was a real hot angler before puberty (worms mostly) but you know what happens when they hit their teens – boys, clothes, music, makeup, etc. etc.  Bronte Creek in Lowville Park is a great place to take a budding fly fisher, – willing baby steelies and lots of easy water and plenty of room.  Duffins Creek at the east end is about the same.  Have fun and let me know if you can get out for a serious day on the Grand.

21 is too young for me.  Now that my divorce is just about through, I have to keep my eyes out for a fly fishin’ woman, a little older though probably.  And, yes looks DO count! With respect to the Duffins, that is exactly where my eldest had his introduction to flyfishing, this spring!  It was awesome – he caught two little browns on his first day out with a fly!  I was really proud of him, especially after he said he didn’t care much for worm fishing anymore .  I wrote an article about that trip, if you’re interested. Alex was pretty impressed! http://flyfishing.about.com/library/weekly/aa052800a.htm We spent some time on Oshawa Creek first, just to let Alex get the hang of it.  Actually, I had him do a bit of casting before we even got down to the stream, but he picked it up really quick!  Kids are probably easier to teach in some ways than adults. I will be hitting the Grand again, but I also want to head off in search of some bass too.  I know a few small hidden places not far from where I used to live near Grand Valley.. might give those a shot. We really should see if we can find a day we are both available, soon! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

I have been away from ROFF for too long!  Things like work, kids, and the business kept getting in the way.  I have missed out on too much at ROFF though! For the cane rodbuilders in the group, thought you might be interested in an article I wrote about a recent Sage video.. take a look at the article and the video and let me know what you think! http://flyfishing.about.com/library/weekly/aa072000a.htm I would love to know Mr. Gherke’s comments too! Ian Scott http://flyfishing.about.com/

Wondered where you ran off to. I tried this video URL and the thing will download but not run.  First it had me download a MS viewer then RealPlayer beta 8 and the damn thing still just sits.  I’m running IE 5.5 with all mod cons and the Sage Video page is full of broken GIFs – great site – NOT! Anyway, I’ll read the article without the video and post my appropriately rude comments. Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

I have been away from ROFF for too long!  Things like work, kids, and the business kept getting in the way.  I have missed out on too much at ROFF though! For the cane rodbuilders in the group, thought you might be interested in an article I wrote about a recent Sage video.. take a look at the article and the video and let me know what you think! http://flyfishing.about.com/library/weekly/aa072000a.htm I would love to know Mr. Gherke’s comments too! Ian Scott http://flyfishing.about.com/

______  Well Ion, the name is Gehrke, please and I see you are aware of our art work but you fail to list us as a manufacturer of fine Bamboo Fly Rods? I read your stint with interest and I do have a few constructive comments to offer, but at this time I decline for the reason above.   Take care friend, — Mr.Gink "the saga continues"   http://www.gink.com/

Response:

I have been away from ROFF for too long!  Things like work, kids, and the business kept getting in the way.  I have missed out on too much at ROFF though! For the cane rodbuilders in the group, thought you might be interested in an article I wrote about a recent Sage video.. take a look at the article and the video and let me know what you think! http://flyfishing.about.com/library/weekly/aa072000a.htm I would love to know Mr. Gherke’s comments too! Ian Scott http://flyfishing.about.com/

Response:

Question:

Anybody know what happened to the fly swap that was posted on this newsgroup a while back?  I Emailled the poster and haven’t heard from him. Willi

Response:

Anybody know what happened to the fly swap that was posted on this newsgroup a while back?  I Emailled the poster and haven’t heard from him. Willi

 So did I! perhaps he’s busy? Or a little confused by all the reactions? Hans van der Stroom

Response:

Hans van der Stroom schrieb in Nachricht Anybody know what happened to the fly swap that was posted on this newsgroup a while back?  I Emailled the poster and haven’t heard from him. Willi So did I! perhaps he’s busy? Or a little confused by all the reactions? Hans van der Stroom

I got no reply as yet either. Perhaps he got too many e-mails ? Obviously quite a few people replied. Hope he manages to get it going though. Would be nice to have something a little more tangible from other ROFF members, makes it more personal somehow. Tight Lines ! Mike Connor

Response:

I did the same.  Last I heard from him. Hans van der Stroom schrieb in Nachricht William Loehman heeft geschreven in bericht

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Anybody know what happened to the fly swap that was posted on this newsgroup a while back?  I Emailled the poster and haven’t heard from him. Willi So did I! perhaps he’s busy? Or a little confused by all the reactions? Hans van der Stroom I got no reply as yet either. Perhaps he got too many e-mails ? Obviously quite a few people replied. Hope he manages to get it going though. Would be nice to have something a little more tangible from other ROFF members, makes it more personal somehow. Tight Lines ! Mike Connor

Response:

I got no reply as yet either. Perhaps he got too many e-mails ? Obviously Tight Lines ! Mike Connor

Maybe he’s making a list to sell to phone solicitors…..;] No really. Maybe life intervened. pete

Response:

It was mine, promised it to you somewhere in the Peter Ross thread some time ago. Just forgot to adjust the label. Cheers, Herman Got my package in the mail the other day.  It was a wonderful assortment of flies.  I hope we can get some more info on some of them.  Who was it that was collecting info for a web site? Paul? BTW, who tied the Peter Ross?  Mine was labeled as being an Elk & CDC by Herman. Mu

– Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

Peter Ross was a Scottish barber who combined the now alomost forgotten Teal and Silver and the Teal and Red to a (according to history) very succesful wet fly/attractor. Origins are (top of my head) somewhere late on the last century. I caught more fish on it than I care to remember. Ideal fly for rivers in rainy circumstances and staining water. Fish across and down and have fun! Also very good on lakes. The odd thing about the PR is that it either works for you, or not at all. There’s still some Scottish mystic left in the old pattern I guess.. Pattern: Hook: standard wet fly, normally 8 – 14 Tail: goldpheasant tippets Body: rear 2/3 flat silver, front 1/3 red seal (imitation)       ribbed with silver wire Wing: Teal Hackle: black hen or soft cock, tied to the underside of the hook. Herman, enjoying a wee dram.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I am collenting the stuff for the web site. Who is Peter Ross? Paul … Got my package in the mail the other day.  It was a wonderful assortment of flies.  I hope we can get some more info on some of them.  Who was it that was collecting info for a web site? Paul? BTW, who tied the Peter Ross?  Mine was labeled as being an Elk & CDC by Herman. Mu

– Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

Ah, thanks Herman, for awhile there I thought I screwed up in picking that one out to give to Mu….the label had me confused. (more than usual, that is) Frank (where am I?) Church

|It was mine, promised it to you somewhere in the Peter Ross thread some |time ago. Just forgot to adjust the label. |Cheers, Herman |

| | Got my package in the mail the other day.  It was a wonderful assortment | of flies.  I hope we can get some more info on some of them.  Who was it | that was collecting info for a web site? Paul? | | BTW, who tied the Peter Ross?  Mine was labeled as being an Elk & CDC by | Herman. | | Mu | |– |Cheers, Herman |Herman Nijland |Daytime webmaster |Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

I thought I was short a fly for a moment because I didn’t see anyflies like that.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ah, thanks Herman, for awhile there I thought I screwed up in picking that one out to give to Mu….the label had me confused. (more than usual, that is) Frank (where am I?) Church |It was mine, promised it to you somewhere in the Peter Ross thread some |time ago. Just forgot to adjust the label. |Cheers, Herman | | | Got my package in the mail the other day.  It was a wonderful assortment | of flies.  I hope we can get some more info on some of them.  Who was it | that was collecting info for a web site? Paul? | | BTW, who tied the Peter Ross?  Mine was labeled as being an Elk & CDC by | Herman. | | Mu | |– |Cheers, Herman |Herman Nijland |Daytime webmaster |Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

‘Twas an exciting day at the Kirkpatrick household yesterday when the Fly Menagerie arrived.  Even my wife, an occasional fflady (between golf and tennis and gardening pursuits), was intrigued.  She especially liked the cute flys with the eyes.  I was duly impressed by the level of fly-tying-skills displayed, all previously expressed caveats, rationalizations, and absurd excuses notwithstanding.  Geez….These guys are GOOD!  I must have obtained the hand-selected display flys that Frank had obtained from some secret source, mimicing the identical fly types purportedly sent by Roffians.  Great job guys.  I too am looking forward to the web site for more info on how and when to fish each fly.  Thanks to all participants. Pat K In article Got my package in the mail the other day.  It was a wonderful assortment of flies.  I hope we can get some more info on some of them.  Who was it that was collecting info for a web site? Paul? BTW, who tied the Peter Ross?  Mine was labeled as being an Elk & CDC by Herman. Mu

* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

I’m looking forward to your website paul.  I haven’t got all the names matched up with the flies yet.  Thanks for the effort. — Levi "So long, and thanks for all the fish."

Response:

Speaking of which, is the site up yet Paul?  Got a URL for us?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m looking forward to your website paul.  I haven’t got all the names matched up with the flies yet.  Thanks for the effort.

Response:

It’s taking a little longer than I expected (doesn’t every project). Here is one of the flies: http://www.paul.goodwinweb.com/flyswap2000/grw.jpg It is the Green Rock Worm tied by LaCourse. Nice fly but I had expected he’d tie something with wool. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Speaking of which, is the site up yet Paul?  Got a URL for us? I’m looking forward to your website paul.  I haven’t got all the names matched up with the flies yet.  Thanks for the effort.

Response:

I just found the pattern in the book by Taff Price "Fly Patterns an international guide" Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter Ross was a Scottish barber who combined the now alomost forgotten Teal and Silver and the Teal and Red to a (according to history) very succesful wet fly/attractor. Origins are (top of my head) somewhere late on the last century. I caught more fish on it than I care to remember. Ideal fly for rivers in rainy circumstances and staining water. Fish across and down and have fun! Also very good on lakes. The odd thing about the PR is that it either works for you, or not at all. There’s still some Scottish mystic left in the old pattern I guess.. Pattern: Hook: standard wet fly, normally 8 – 14 Tail: goldpheasant tippets Body: rear 2/3 flat silver, front 1/3 red seal (imitation)       ribbed with silver wire Wing: Teal Hackle: black hen or soft cock, tied to the underside of the hook. Herman, enjoying a wee dram.. Hi, I am collenting the stuff for the web site. Who is Peter Ross? Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … Got my package in the mail the other day.  It was a wonderful assortment of flies.  I hope we can get some more info on some of them.  Who was it that was collecting info for a web site? Paul? BTW, who tied the Peter Ross?  Mine was labeled as being an Elk & CDC by Herman. Mu — Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

Came home tonight to find the most unlikely collection of bugs imaginable on my doorstep.  Everything from dandruff to this big red lobster-lookin thing that looks like more than a match for any fish I’ve ever caught.  Really nice looking set of flies, and quite a few patterns I’ve never even heard of.  Considering the number of people who claimed to be beginners, I am really impressed by how nice these things all look.  Of course there were a couple that were conspicuous by their absence.  All drop-outs have to tie double next year! ;

Question:

Kiyu,   Or you could buy a Blood Knot Machine.  See http://home.earthlink.net/~eharrison241 . Ernie

Aw Geez!!!! Or you could buy a Blood Knot Machine. See http://home.earthlink.net/~eharrison241 .

Sorry Ernie. Shoulda prefaced my post with that.<G Check is in the mail. Do I have to wear a blindfold to operate this thing or can I peek?<G Kiyu

Response:

Kiyu,   Or you could buy a Blood Knot Machine.  See http://home.earthlink.net/~eharrison241 .

____  Why buy a Blood Knot Machine when I already have the fingers trained? New Motto:  Free Knots by Hands, Inc. : ) — MrG/American Sportsman http://www.gink.com/ "the saga continues"

Response:

  Or you could buy a Blood Knot Machine.  See http://home.earthlink.net/~eharrison241 . Ernie Aw Geez!!!! Sorry Ernie. Shoulda prefaced my post with that.<G Check is in the mail. Do I have to wear a blindfold to operate this thing or can I peek?<G Kiyu

I don’t know Kiyu, you probably could tie one with a blindfold, but I need all the help I can get. Ernie

Response:

That IS weird. The weakest link for me is invariably the double surgeons between leader and tippet. It is possible to attach tippet with a blood/barrel knot astream, I saw a guide do just that with an elaborate sequence of hand over hand maneuvers and a deft twist of the wrist. If I could master that technique my leader to tippet connection would be quite a bit stronger, but what the hell, if you’re snagged the line has to break somewhere. — Ken Fortenberry

I used to do both types of clinch knots but now I’ve converted to the uni-knot as it is very quick, good for geezerhood afflicted eyesight and not noticeably weaker than any other.  One good thing about the uni, if you screw up, it breaks easily in a pull test.  It’s a habit now after losing so many nice fish, I pull test each knot. I lost a lot of fish on my western trip because I had grown careless in how I tightened my double surgeon knots.   I follow this regime rigidly now: 1.  Form identical loops and equal length tags. 2.  Wet knot very well. 3.  Pull tight with tags and main line together. 4.  Ensure tightness by pulling down on the thin tag. 5.  Trim tags. 6.  NEVER tighten by pulling on the tippet and leader only.  It pinches the tippet a millimetre or so down from the knot.  Basically, the tippet gets extruded through the tightened knot.  The knot can be pull tested plus running the loop back and forth as a vertical upside-down "U" will expose any weak kink as it will fold at that point. Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

I went up to Waterville with Ed the other night. Nice report, Dave. Thanks for writing it up.

You’re welcome. heading out for the hex hatches shortly and I will report on that too… … I sat fumbling with a small caddis fly, unable to "stuff the loop" and finish the knot (I fear my vision is starting to show it’s age), … No use fighting the approach of geezerhood, you’re just moments away from Metamucil cocktails and liver spots. As far as "stuff the loop", does that mean you’re tying an improved clinch ? I used to use the improved clinch but read somewhere that unless you tie it exactly perfect it’s actually LESS strong than a regular clinch. Since then I’ve been using the regular clinch, with exactly 5 turns, and it’s worked out well.

metamucil??? GAK!!! ’tis no doubt regrettably true, sooner or later I will get there. Geezerhood, my I’ll be working my way up in the world. My 20/10 vision is finally burning out, no doubt from squinting at SQL statements trying to figure out how to join a couple of tables and not bury our database server…sigh…(he chants "I hate Oracle 8.1.6, I hate oracle…") guess I’m a bit old fashioned, but the improved clinch works ok for me, I usually break off at my blood knots if I break at all, but the old standard Maxima seems to be pretty damn good to me most of the time. Flyfish

Response:

 I recently "discovered" the surgeons knot and took to  it because it is simple.  But I started to experience  knot failures, so I’ve returned to the version of the  blood knot in Sosin & Kreh’s book.  It’s more difficult  but it’s doable, even when you’re trying to tie one with  fish visible all around you.  It works for a broad range  of differences in lines, though you may have to increase  the number of turns.  One combination that does *not*  work well, tho it shouldn’t be an issue in fly fishing, is  Fireline to softer fluorocarbon lines such as the Stren.

Double up the Fireline using a Spider Hitch and use double uni-knots to joint it to comparable strength mono. Mu

Response:

Hi Dave, Good to see you back! Went afishin’ with Lloyd Hielbrunn today.  He is a ROFFian up from Florida. Just what Boone, NC needs another Floridian!  Lloyd and I will hit the speed bumps of Upper Creek in the morning, in honor of Daytripper. Fishy report to follow tomorrow’s activities. Hasta Las Vegas Opie  –Settin’ up another sucker–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steve Z. writes: The improved loop pretty much doubles the amount of time it takes me to tie the clinch knot (and recent events have convinced me to keep that time to a minimum , so I’d *love* to believe that it doesn’t help. But it sure seems to in my case. Of course, there might be other explanations for my hook-loss reduction–better casting means a healthier tippet, perhaps I "play" the fish better now, maybe the fact that I only catch small fish means no break-offs <g, etc etc. I hafta go along with Forty on this one.  I tie a clinch knot using a tool — at least 5 turns, sometimes 6 — and I seldom have a failure.  When I do have a failure it is with a knot that I tied quickly and didn’t test by pulling hard on it.  Always use spit to reduce the friction. Dave, back from another wonderful trip to Maine watching my grandsons catch big brookies…..

Response:

Kiyu,    Or you could buy a Blood Knot Machine.  See http://home.earthlink.net/~eharrison241 . Ernie "Kiyu" wrote <snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A few years ago at the Fly Fishermen site they posted an article from a reader about a simplified method of tying the blood knot. He tied the ends of the leader & tippet together with a simple overhand knot then made a loop keeping the overhand knot at the top. He then fed the tippet through the loop six times, holding the tippet & leader apart with his thumb & finger at the third pass. He fed the overhand knot down through the separated tippet & leader made at the third pass. He pulled it snug then snipped off the overhand knot. The only problem with this is the tag ends both go through the center of the knot from the same direction. The knot works well but I spent a lot of time trying to figure out a simple way to get the tag ends to feed through from opposite sides the way they are supposed to be. Thought about it ’til my head hurt but couldn’t improve it. Kiyu

Response:

That IS weird. The weakest link for me is invariably the double surgeons between leader and tippet. It is possible to attach tippet with a blood/barrel knot astream, I saw a guide do just that with an elaborate sequence of hand over hand maneuvers and a deft twist of the wrist. If I could master that technique my leader to tippet connection would be quite a bit stronger, but what the hell, if you’re snagged the line has to break somewhere.

Ken, A few years ago at the Fly Fishermen site they posted an article from a reader about a simplified method of tying the blood knot. He tied the ends of the leader & tippet together with a simple overhand knot then made a loop keeping the overhand knot at the top. He then fed the tippet through the loop six times, holding the tippet & leader apart with his thumb & finger at the third pass. He fed the overhand knot down through the separated tippet & leader made at the third pass. He pulled it snug then snipped off the overhand knot. The only problem with this is the tag ends both go through the center of the knot from the same direction. The knot works well but I spent a lot of time trying to figure out a simple way to get the tag ends to feed through from opposite sides the way they are supposed to be. Thought about it ’til my head hurt but couldn’t improve it.   One good thing came out of it though. When I tie the surgeons knot I have a heck of a time keeping the knot together. I found that tying the ends together made it a lot easier to feed them through the loop and I can knock the knot out now a lot quicker. Kiyu

Response:

Ken Fortenberry wrote…

[snip] When I brought the issue to ROFF I was told three things: (1) use exactly 5 turns (2) make sure to add the "improved loop" to the knot, and (3) lick the knot before tightening. I was nearly always using 5 turns anyway, but when I added that improved loop, my hook losses all but dissappeared. Sometimes I lick the knot and sometimes I don’t–that doesn’t seem to make an appreciable difference as long as I tighten slowly. [snip] –Steve

Of the 3 items I thing #3 is the most important. I use more than 5 turns for anthing over 5X and only use the improved chinch when tying large hooks on a very light leader. Paul

Response:

Ken writes: That IS weird. The weakest link for me is invariably the double surgeons between leader and tippet.

amen! Like you say later, the blood knot is a pain to do on the fly astream. I see the same weak link in my fishing. Knots of any sort don’t fail often, but chessy double surgeon knots are my dominant culprits.                              Tom Littleton

Response:

Steve Z. writes: The improved loop pretty much doubles the amount of time it takes me to tie the clinch knot (and recent events have convinced me to keep that time to a minimum , so I’d *love* to believe that it doesn’t help. But it sure seems to in my case. Of course, there might be other explanations for my hook-loss reduction–better casting means a healthier tippet, perhaps I "play" the fish better now, maybe the fact that I only catch small fish means no break-offs <g, etc etc.

I hafta go along with Forty on this one.  I tie a clinch knot using a tool — at least 5 turns, sometimes 6 — and I seldom have a failure.  When I do have a failure it is with a knot that I tied quickly and didn’t test by pulling hard on it.  Always use spit to reduce the friction. Dave, back from another wonderful trip to Maine watching my grandsons  catch big brookies…..

Response:

… More than once in the last couple of weeks when I’ve gotten a snag and ended up having to break the line, the knot that has given out first has been the *leader perfection loop* of all things!

That IS weird. The weakest link for me is invariably the double surgeons between leader and tippet. It is possible to attach tippet with a blood/barrel knot astream, I saw a guide do just that with an elaborate sequence of hand over hand maneuvers and a deft twist of the wrist. If I could master that technique my leader to tippet connection would be quite a bit stronger, but what the hell, if you’re snagged the line has to break somewhere. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Ken Fortenberry wrote… …does that mean you’re tying an improved clinch ? I used to use the improved clinch but read somewhere that unless you tie it exactly perfect it’s actually LESS strong than a regular clinch. Since then I’ve been using the regular clinch, with exactly 5 turns, and it’s worked out well.

Hmmm. Looks like I’ll have to do some impirical testing because that doesn’t jive with my experience. I used to lose lots of flies, right at the knot. When I brought the issue to ROFF I was told three things: (1) use exactly 5 turns (2) make sure to add the "improved loop" to the knot, and (3) lick the knot before tightening. I was nearly always using 5 turns anyway, but when I added that improved loop, my hook losses all but dissappeared. Sometimes I lick the knot and sometimes I don’t–that doesn’t seem to make an appreciable difference as long as I tighten slowly. The improved loop pretty much doubles the amount of time it takes me to tie the clinch knot (and recent events have convinced me to keep that time to a minimum , so I’d *love* to believe that it doesn’t help. But it sure seems to in my case. Of course, there might be other explanations for my hook-loss reduction–better casting means a healthier tippet, perhaps I "play" the fish better now, maybe the fact that I only catch small fish means no break-offs <g, etc etc. More than once in the last couple of weeks when I’ve gotten a snag and ended up having to break the line, the knot that has given out first has been the *leader perfection loop* of all things! Now I just tie a clincher there instead–and believe me when I tell you that it absolutely, positively does not hinge as I was lead to believe. –Steve

Response:

I went up to Waterville with Ed the other night.

Nice report, Dave. Thanks for writing it up. … I sat fumbling with a small caddis fly, unable to "stuff the loop" and finish the knot (I fear my vision is starting to show it’s age), …

No use fighting the approach of geezerhood, you’re just moments away from Metamucil cocktails and liver spots. As far as "stuff the loop", does that mean you’re tying an improved clinch ? I used to use the improved clinch but read somewhere that unless you tie it exactly perfect it’s actually LESS strong than a regular clinch. Since then I’ve been using the regular clinch, with exactly 5 turns, and it’s worked out well. — Ken Fortenberry

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I went up to Waterville with Ed the other night. When we arrived there were stripers showing on the bar occasionally, some small bass and/or alewives popping here and there and a nice strong caddis hatch in progress. I chose my "new" bamboo, a nice ebay special, a circa 1952 Shakespeare 1305T bamboo. This particular rod came to me a couple of weeks ago and I instantly loved the feel of it. It had the feel that I always expected in a bamboo but never found on the yard sale specials I had come across. It’s 8 1/2′, has a nifty spring loaded unlocking reel seat and throws a DT5 floater and a 6WF sinker pretty nicely. I had only caught one small brookie on it so I didn’t feel the rod had been truly stress tested yet. Ed and I spent some time working some smaller risers on the left shore while we waited for dark. As dark came in we drifted down and over a bit and got in a good spot by a few risers. As fate would have it after a couple of risers had drifted past us I popped my fly off on a poor backcast. Ed was changing flies and it was getting fairly dark out. I sat fumbling with a small caddis fly, unable to "stuff the loop" and finish the knot (I fear my vision is starting to show it’s age), watching a fish rise close to the boat. Ed was in the back having similar problems aggravated by an uncooperative flashlight. I finally got the caddis on and started casting over the fish. Several casts and he moved a bit further out. I couldn’t see my fly on the water, I caught a glimpse of a rise, setup and hooked the fish. He ran a bit upstream, didn’t feel very large and suddenly drove hard upstream and deep. My rod got quite a bend going and I worked hard to get him on the reel. Once on the reel I got him in close by the boat and caught a flash of what looked like a good sized back when he decided to run again. I let the drag work him and he ran any number of times. Finally Ed got the net up and I began to try to pull the fish into the net. My poor little bamboo was bent and stress tested for certain. We netted the fish, took a quick measure (22") and a couple of pics then I put him back in the river and waited for the fish to revive. When the fish was ready he swam off. We guessed the fish was between 4-5lbs, very fat and heavy. In that current, I would be hard pressed to boat a fish that was much larger with that bamboo. I still love the feel of it. We fished until fairly late, working some large stuff over stripers feeding on the bar but didn’t catch another thing. The stripers seem to be loners, just cruising here and there, occasionally raising hell with something or other. Flyfish — dave’s homepage madness http://www.ctel.net/~brooktrout flyfishing in Maine and more

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Question:

First of all, don’t use the terms *hook* &  *worm* and flyfishin’ in the same post. There’s a great little book which covers novice info, put out by, "Trailside Adventure," titled Flyfishing.  You may be familiar with the PBS series. The book covers knots, casting, types of flyfishin’, flys, ect…  Orvis also has a great beginners book, don’t recall the name presently.  Should be on their web site! Hang around and much advice will likely follow.  I’d offer to help, but I don’t fish so good, so my advice is limited to books. Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can someone lead me to an informative source where i can learn the fundamentals of Fly Fishing I got a real nice rod and reel for a present but i’m not sure how put together the leader and the line and make it work.  Can somebody help me out here?  I love catching those little brookies but I have only done it on a hook and worm. I’m not a COMPLETE idiot , i just havent done a whole lot of fly fishing. Thanks for your time, Darrin

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I love catching those little brookies but I have only done it on a hook and worm. I’m not a COMPLETE idiot , …

If catching is what you love, worms are the way to go. You’ll catch far more brookies with worms than with any other method save dynamite or rotenone. For flyfishing we generally recommend _The Curtis Creek Manifesto_ by Sheridan Anderson, Frank Amato Pubns; ISBN: 0936608064 Some think there’s more to flyfishing than catching, YMMV. Good luck. — Ken Fortenberry

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Orvis also has a great beginners book, don’t recall the name presently.  Should be on their web site!

Also here http://www.crosswinds.net/~brbg/books/brbg-gen-ff.html.  This book is by Tom Rosenbauer, who wrote a couple other books I know of "Reading Troutstreams" and "Prospecting for Trout".  He’s a good writer and after you check out a basic book, you might want to look at one of these 2 next. Regards, Jeff

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If catching is what you love, worms are the way to go. You’ll catch far more brookies with worms than with any other method save dynamite or rotenone. Some think there’s more to flyfishing than catching, YMMV. Ken Fortenberry

Ahmen Brother!!! Wayne & Dianna enjoying the flyfishing. To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

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Some think there’s more to flyfishing than catching, YMMV.

Sometimes hiking is a pain I gotta go through to get to the fish, but then there are the times where I feel like carrying my fly rod is just good excuse for hiking up some beautiful paths and streams. Regards, Jeff

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Can somebody help me out here?

You have received some good advice here. IMHO, once you have a good book and an idea of what the sport is about, seek out a flyfishing club and ask for their help getting started. In all likelihood someone will mentor you and explain the things that books and pictures can’t. If there are no clubs nearby, approach people you meet on the stream and ask questions. If you approach them in the same manner you entered ROFF, I’m sure they will help. Keep posting your questions here as well, and keep us informed as to your progress. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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Marge, I believe it is proper to identify yourself as an agent of the "suggested" business you are providing a link to. I’m surprised you just don’t use your normal isp address instead of an anonymous one. Just a friendly suggestion. Have a nice day, Walt ezflyfish.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here is a pretty good place to start. http://www.bluequillangler.com/learning_flyfishing.html Can someone lead me to an informative source where i can learn the fundamentals of Fly Fishing Before you buy.

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Here is a pretty good place to start. http://www.bluequillangler.com/learning_flyfishing.html Can someone lead me to an informative source where i can learn the fundamentals of Fly Fishing

Before you buy.

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www.troutfishing.co.za & click on lessons. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Can someone lead me to an informative source where i can learn the fundamentals of Fly Fishing I got a real nice rod and reel for a present but i’m not sure how put together the leader and the line and make it work. Can somebody help me out here?  I love catching those little brookies but I have only done it on a hook and worm. I’m not a COMPLETE idiot , i just havent done a whole lot of fly fishing. Thanks for your time, Darrin

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Can someone lead me to an informative source where i can learn the fundamentals of Fly Fishing I got a real nice rod and reel for a present but i’m not sure how put together the leader and the line and make it work.  Can somebody help me out here?  I love catching those little brookies but I have only done it on a hook and worm. I’m not a COMPLETE idiot , i just havent done a whole lot of fly fishing. Thanks for your time, Darrin

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I got a real nice rod and reel

At least you didn’t call it a pole. I’m not a COMPLETE idiot

Good!  Sometimes that helps.  :-) http://www.virtualflyshop.com/ Has a ton of good information, from basic to advanced. — Levi "So long, and thanks for all the fish."

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Good luck in a fun new "sport."  hit a local library and search fir fly fishing.. hell, if i learned how that way, you can too.  see if you can find some poor sucker around where you live to help you out.. and , get a bunch of flies, go to a stream, and practice.  you will need a bunc of flies cause you can expect to lose many of them your first time out. that will end, dont panic. edwin

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can someone lead me to an informative source where i can learn the fundamentals of Fly Fishing I got a real nice rod and reel for a present but i’m not sure how put together the leader and the line and make it work.  Can somebody help me out here?  I love catching those little brookies but I have only done it on a hook and worm. I’m not a COMPLETE idiot , i just havent done a whole lot of fly fishing. Thanks for your time, Darrin

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Can someone lead me to an informative source where i can learn the fundamentals of Fly Fishing

Darrin,  You are going to need some supplies to get started.  I would take what you have and head to the nearest flyshop.  Tell them what is going on and they will most likely show you have to put the line together and attach a leader, tippet, ect.  Buy some stuff to let them know you are serious.  Maybe a flybox and some flies, tippet, ect.  Be ready to spend about $100 (I know I have a hard time leaving without spending at least $50 and that is being conservative). Ask about classes they offer.  Most shops offer beginner courses in casting, ect.  Some shops can be really helpful in getting a beginner started.  Not only will they obviously sell you what you need, but will give you enough advice to keep you coming back to spend more money.  Make a few friends with some people who fly fish as well.  It helps having someone around you can get some free advice from. Books and stuff are okay, but you cannot beat personal instruction, especially when it is free.  There are a lot of good websites out there with info on knots, ect.  Check them out and practice what you learn.  Practice casting on your lawn or at a park.  Sounds stupid, but lawn fishing can save you some frustration out on the water. HTH. Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

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Question:

Actually, it will work just fine.  If you are having trouble getting a big, bushy dry out there with a bow/arrow cast, try building up a leader that is quite heavy through the butt and mid sections, dropping off to a fairly long tippet of light material.  The leader will unroll just like the fly line, and the tippet will pile.  Size the leader to give you the kind of distance you want. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can’t do any normal cast due to all the vegetation.  However, I also can’t do a role cast due to the spot being under an overhang.  The Clarence is about 2 feet. Howdy Vern, Get mad if you want, but an ultralight spinning outfit would be ideal, swing it up under there with a couple of splitshot…I keep an ultralight reel spooled with 4# stren in my vest for just this occasion and yes those are Pautzkee stains on my vest. I can try this.  However, I don’t think it will work with a dry fly.  I’m first going to try the Bow and Arrow cast. Vern

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[short casting snipped] Since everyone here is doing the b&a, somebody has to be the asshole and be different.  My turn.  The b&a will work of course, but there are alternatives.  One method I use with slow rods; pickup as if doing a conventional cast but begin the forward cast while the fly is still in front of you.  It takes a smooth, low power stroke, but it works. Peter

        this is worth a try:  if you can face the center of the creek, while standing, or squatting, at the left bank, allow your line to drift downstream the same length necessary to reach your target. then, when the line is at its greatest "stretch", just fire a single forward cast with your rod parallel with the stream surface. wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Vern; Get in the water upstream of the spot and shake out enough lose line to drift your fly downstream to the fish John Before you buy.

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Otherwise Fishless in Kansas

You’re probably going to need to find some farm ponds or get a boat (or a float tube) to do any fly fishing around there. Can be done, though. — Charlie…

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get the machete out of the truck and clear out your backcast then go and make some clearance on the other side down a few beers and take an nap to wait for the fish to calm down then make your regular cast to the fish. take less time than perfecting the b&a cast – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I also need help casting to that "G" spot.  You know, that GREAT spot.  Let me described the location.  I can see the spot about 15 feet away if I stand with vegetation behind me, to the left of me, and to the right of me.  I can’t do any normal cast due to all the vegetation.  However, I also can’t do a role cast due to the spot being under an overhang.  The Clarence is about 2 feet.  Additionally, it’s on a small body of water that doesn’t seam to have any real service current to speak of.  So, floating the fly under the overhang is not an option. I know there are fish under the overhang.  Sometimes I can see them surfacing.  I just can’t get my fly where I want it.  WHAT KIND OF CAST CAN I DO TO

GET IT A good friend taught me how to fish such a place with out the b&a cast. Wayno has the right idea. Especially at 15 feet, let line drift down, pick up the line and begin a back cast to where the target is. Don’t forward cast, let the fly drop on the backcast to the spot. — Wayne Knight Expert in creating tailing loops and windknots Otherwise Fishless in Kansas Before you buy.

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Vern, Bow and Arrow Cast!!! Joe Humphries demonstrates it in his small stream tactics video. However…please note: It is not pleasant to grasp the hook at the bend, pull back and release only to find the hook imbedded in your thumb as the rod is still reverberating in your other hand. It hurts like hell and worse, it puts all the fish down in three counties as you’re cussin’ up a storm. As Tom mentions, pinch the flyline at the leader junction, pull back and release. Matt & I use this technique quite a bit up here…in fact, it is a variation of the looping flyline technique of the b&a that Humphries demonstrates. Just be sure to keep the leader/tippet/fly in front of you or else as you release it you could be hooked in a worse place then your thumb. Always wear glasses ..trust me on this one. You can also have a leader/tippet combo as long as you like…a good b&a technique will turn it over. You can also increase length just by pinching further up the flyline (thus increasing the amount of "dead" line to be energized) and when you become really proficient at it (Matt has it mastered) you can actually b&a a cast as the line is still on the water as it is drifting back to you. Hope this helps, Walt — Ezflyfish.com http://www.ezflyfish.com BRBG http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

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everyone else has properly suggested the bow & arrow cast… me, i’d simply find a taller Clarence… jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    However, I also can’t do a role cast due to the spot being under an overhang.  The Clarence is about 2 feet. Vern

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[short casting snipped] Since everyone here is doing the b&a, somebody has to be the asshole and be different.  My turn.  The b&a will work of course, but there are alternatives.  One method I use with slow rods; pickup as if doing a conventional cast but begin the forward cast while the fly is still in front of you.  It takes a smooth, low power stroke, but it works. Peter

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I can’t do any normal cast due to all the vegetation.  However, I also can’t do a role cast due to the spot being under an overhang.  The Clarence is about 2 feet. Howdy Vern, Get mad if you want, but an ultralight spinning outfit would be ideal, swing it up under there with a couple of splitshot…I keep an ultralight reel spooled with 4# stren in my vest for just this occasion and yes those are Pautzkee stains on my vest.

I can try this.  However, I don’t think it will work with a dry fly.  I’m first going to try the Bow and Arrow cast. Vern

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  I could use a little help.  Well, I do need psychological help, but that’s not what I’m talking about today.  I also need help casting to that "G" spot.  You know, that GREAT spot.  Let me described the location.  I can see the spot about 15 feet away if I stand with vegetation behind me, to the left of me, and to the right of me.  I can’t do any normal cast due to all the vegetation.  However, I also can’t do a role cast due to the spot being under an overhang.  The Clarence is about 2 feet.  Additionally, it’s on a small body of water that doesn’t seam to have any real service current to speak of.  So, floating the fly under the overhang is not an option.  I know there are fish under the overhang.  Sometimes I can see them surfacing.  I just can’t get my fly where I want it.  WHAT KIND OF CAST CAN I DO TO GET IT THERE? Vern

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I guess the reason Jack posted this four times is because there are four fingers you should watch. Ernie Harrison Have you tried a Blood Knot Machine?  http://home.pacbell.net/ernie2 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Use the bow and arrow cast. A good article appeared in Flyfisher several months ago describing how it is done. You basically grab the fly at the hook bend, hold the line tight with your casting hand, and pull the fly to put a bend in the rod. Let go of the fly and let the rod shoot the fly to the target. I would suggest using barbless hooks just in case. With practice, reasonable distance can be obtained. Good luck and watch your fingers. Jack in Tenn.

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Walt Winter showed me a variation if the bow and arrow cast, used with a 5-6 foot leader/tippet.  You grasp the line at the junction of the line/leader, load the rod and release.  The difference between this and other variations (like Joe Humphreys) is that you can get a longer piece of line out with Walt’s method. It’s absolutely deadly. Tom — Tom Brown The Signal Group Wake Forest, NC "If you’re not the lead dog, the view never changes." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <SNIP  A bow and arrow cast will work at that range.  Grasp your fly firmly between your thumb and forefinger of your non-rod hand. Tension your rod by bending it away from you with your rod hand. Aim like you would with a slingshot, and just let go.  If you practice a little at this at home before you go fishing you can get pretty accurate, TL MC

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<snip bow and arrow cast.

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Use the bow and arrow cast. A good article appeared in Flyfisher several months ago describing how it is done. You basically grab the fly at the hook bend, hold the line tight with your casting hand, and pull the fly to put a bend in the rod. Let go of the fly and let the rod shoot the fly to the target. I would suggest using barbless hooks just in case. With practice, reasonable distance can be obtained. Good luck and watch your fingers. Jack in Tenn.

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<SNIP  A bow and arrow cast will work at that range.  Grasp your fly firmly between your thumb and forefinger of your non-rod hand. Tension your rod by bending it away from you with your rod hand. Aim like you would with a slingshot, and just let go.  If you practice a little at this at home before you go fishing you can get pretty accurate, TL MC

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I can’t do any normal cast due to all the vegetation.  However, I also can’t do a role cast due to the spot being under an overhang.  The Clarence is about 2 feet.

Howdy Vern, Get mad if you want, but an ultralight spinning outfit would be ideal, swing it up under there with a couple of splitshot…I keep an ultralight reel spooled with 4# stren in my vest for just this occasion and yes those are Pautzkee stains on my vest. But, if you need to prove a point with the flyrod…a bow and arrow cast comes to mind as does the use of a 10′-er and the same general dapping principle. Your pal, — TimW

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I’m just wondering why no one recommended the BOW AND ARROW CAST…

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WHAT KIND OF CAST CAN I DO TO GET IT THERE?

Bow and arrow cast. — Charlie…

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Question:

My step-dad and I are going to Weaverville on Saturday for some steelhead fishing.  Any advice from recent visitors?  Lures, places, approaches? Thanks in advance.  Dave in Anderson, CA

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This is probably late advice, but I’d stay home.   The river is muddy and fishing is slow. Instead of the Trinity, I’d go over to Lewiston Lake and flyfish that area.  Or…take a drive over to the Smith River as it’s still clear enough to fish and, I understand, that the salmon and steelhead are being cooperative.  Four good updated info on the Trinity, I’d call the Eureka Fly Shop at 444-2000 or the Redding Fly Shop (I don’t have their number). Barry Brown – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My step-dad and I are going to Weaverville on Saturday for some steelhead fishing.  Any advice from recent visitors?  Lures, places, approaches? Thanks in advance.  Dave in Anderson, CA

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Question:

     I’ll be in the Old Forge, NY area during the last week in July. Does anyone know if it’s worth bringing my flyrod?

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Yes it is if you have an opportunity to fish Nicks Lake. You will need a canoe (which can be rented from Tickners in Old Forge), since motors are not allowed on Nicks. Heavily stocked with brown and brook trout. Throw on a size #18 adams and have fun.

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Definately check out the West Canada Creek when you’re in Old Forge.  Late July, most of August you’ll likely find prolific hatches of what are locally called "whiteflies".  Size 12-14-16 light cahills work fine.  Good luck!

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Question:

        On my first ocean cruise in 1981, I bought some "Offshore" foul weather gear at R.E.I. in Seattle.  Total piece of shit. After some pretty rough usage (we lost a rudder) and 31 days at sea, the seams leaked.  I took them back to R.E.I.  They said that they wern’t meant for the kind of sailing I do, but for the "weekend" sailor."  I said "Well why the fuck! do you call it "Offshore"? To make a long story short, they wouldn’t refund my money and it just confirmed my opinion of R.E.I. as a fashion house for frustrated yuuppies. Growing up in Seattle, I have resisted the R.E.I Clone look mightily although I have to admit, Pile Jackets are great for me as I’m allergic to wool.         Where is this leading to?         Buy Helly Hansen fisherman foul weather gear. No seams, no fly, no pockets, NO LEAK!!!!  I’ve worn mine for 10 years fishing in Alaska and California and on many trans ocean sails.  Still wearing them.  My mother is borrowing them for a river rafting trip this month.  About $80 last time I bought (I have two pair) —

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A foulie jacket should either have built-in flotation, or be light and flexible enough to be worn comfortabley with a pfd. This rules out most of the jackets on the market, imho. Ever try to swim in foulies and boots? Either buy an expensive float-coat (very warm, too) or get a light nylon shell (the kind made for white-water canoeing are perfect) and use it in conjuction with sweater or fleece jacket and a pfd, when called for.

I used a canoeing jacket for a few seasons. I don’t agree that it is the best choice for heavy weather sailing. It worked fine for an occational light spray, but it didn’t hold up for the constant pounding with water on rough days. I would quickly get all soaked. It was an enormous improvement when I bought a real foul weather jacket. My usual advice to new sailors is to spend money on the pants and boots, and wait on the jacket.

This makes sense. You’ll quickly wear out any light pants. At least the jacket doesn’t have to take all that abrasive abuse. I wear my pfd inside of a seriously oversized jacket. I have found that this gives me less problems with condensation than doing it the other way. It also reduces the risk of getting tangled in or caought somewhere, and keeps your pfd dry (= fewer wet things in the boat, wich is nice if you’re out for several days.) I don’t think the heavy foul weather gear makes me less mobile. I may feel less mobile after a few hours of constant hard work in a heavy weather race, but that’s because I’m tired. /m

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     I just got the notion to go up to the lake Erie and check the cover on the boat this weekend.  While I am up there I may as well go by the West store and see if they have any of there foul weather gear on sale.  I will be looking for a warm waterproof jacket suitable for use in the spring or fall sailing. Does anyone have any recomendations regarding particullar brands or "features" that I may want to look for?                                                         Thanks,                                                                 Doug — Tar is not a play thing..I will not steal school property..Spit balls are not free speach..I will not bribe principal Skinner..I will not Xerox(tm) my butt .I will not teach others to fly..I will not do that thing with my tongue..BART

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:      I just got the notion to go up to the lake Erie and check the cover on the : boat this weekend.  While I am up there I may as well go by the West store and : see if they have any of there foul weather gear on sale.  I will be looking : for a warm waterproof jacket suitable for use in the spring or fall sailing. : Does anyone have any recomendations regarding particullar brands or "features" : that I may want to look for? :                                                       Thanks, :                                                               Doug : — : Tar is not a play thing..I will not steal school property..Spit balls are not : free speach..I will not bribe principal Skinner..I will not Xerox(tm) my butt : .I will not teach others to fly..I will not do that thing with my tongue..BART — Is that "West" as in West Marine?  My wife and I both have their "Explorer" (? I think) foul weather gear and we are very happy with it.  It did quite well in Practical Sailor’s review of foulies, as well.   The ONLY down side of it that I’ve found is that it is a little heavy for warm weather sailing.  Since that’s not usually a problem here in the Pacific NW, I’m quite happy with it. Chas Douglass/the "Emma Christine" + When I was in school, I cheated on my metaphysics exam.              + + I looked into the soul of the boy sitting next to me.                + + Woody Allen                                                          +

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:      I just got the notion to go up to the lake Erie and check the cover on the : boat this weekend.  While I am up there I may as well go by the West store and : see if they have any of there foul weather gear on sale.  I will be looking : for a warm waterproof jacket suitable for use in the spring or fall sailing. : Does anyone have any recomendations regarding particullar brands or "features" : that I may want to look for? :                                                  Thanks, :                                                          Doug

Waterproof helps. Seriously, a big thing I cared about that many jackets didn’t address was adequate sealing about the neck. a $500 Henri Lloyd isn’t much good when spray hits you and runs inside the jacket repeatedly!!!! I got a pretty good deal on serious offshore gear – from Boat/US, actually. They sell other companies’ gear with their name on it – I have heard doubts about the quality, although mine has lasted very well. I hear Gore-Tex (Helly-Tech, whatever!) eventually leaks, but mine works okay for light spray. The PVC coating in my heavier gear, along with the sealed cuffs and neck, keep me surprisingly warm. It’s really too warm for active races. Alan Moore My opinions only.

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