Fly Fishing Fisherman Wiki » Fly Fishing Flies » Parachute-style Flat Caddis

Parachute-style Flat Caddis

Question:

George somebody (can’t remember his last name) once told me to

I can’t imagine anyone named George flaming anyone in this manner. <g — TL, Tim

Response:

George somebody (can’t remember his last name) once told me to I can’t imagine anyone named George flaming anyone in this manner. <g

I’m shocked! SHOCKED! I tells ya! /daytripper (Could never happen here

Response:

There’s an old Western pattern, The Rio Grande Trude, that’s VERY similar to your Pass Lake. It was somewhat of a standard some twenty years ago, but you seldom see it anymore. There was a guy that specialized in the fly and caught some very big fish in waters that generally demand very small flies. One of the reason the fly is so good is that it fishes well dry, damp or wet. Willi

Help me out here. Isn’t the Rio Grande Trude basically a Royal Trude with out the red thread on the body? If so I keep several of those in my fly box. The Royal Trude is my favorite fly on my favorite stream. However, if the fishies are being fussy and not taking it, I will try the Rio Grande (or at least what I am thinking is Rio Grande) and sometimes I will start catching fish with it. It seems odd to me that that small of a change in the fly (no red body thread) will make that much difference. Also, if they are taking the Royal they won’t touch the Rio Grande. Russell

Response:

"pittendrigh" < George somebody (can’t remember his last name) once told me to It was funny. In fact, thanks George. I needed that.

Sorry, I can’t help myself here Sandy… was it the telling you needed or did you actually do it and discover you needed it? c):-) Clark

Response:

Very interesting. Peacock herl is fascinating stuff. There are many materials with a vast range of uses in fly tying, but peacock herl is a true standout among them. It is the only material I know of which virtually guarantees that flies incorporating it will catch fish……there’s just something magic about it. I have never encountered a fly using peacock herl that is not a good fish catcher. That said, I find it a bit odd to see it in a dry fly. Herl, by its very nature, floats like a brick. Unlike many feathers, it is not the least bit hydrophobic…..quite the contrary, it wicks up water so effectively that it is difficult to make it float, even with the best of floatants. Never having seen this fly in action, I would suspect that the wing stays on the surface while the body is submerged. While this sort of arrangement often makes it hard to keep a fly floating at all, thus causing no end of frustration, it is often VERY appealing to fish. My own favorite Pass Lake works on the same principle. I tie it with a chenille body (equally problematic in dry flies) which will occasionally allow the fly to sit on the surface for a short while but inevitably causes the entire body to sink through the meniscus, leaving the wing (at best) to keep the whole damned thing from sinking. Both trout and panfish frequently find this irresistible. My guess is that the fly Harry posted is going to float LESS well than your Pass Lake. CDC does float but not well enough to hold the weight of a soaked peacock body. Like you stated through, that’s not necessarily a bad thing. There’s an old Western pattern, The Rio Grande Trude, that’s VERY similar to your Pass Lake. It was somewhat of a standard some twenty years ago, but you seldom see it anymore. There was a guy that specialized in the fly and caught some very big fish in waters that generally demand very small flies. One of the reason the fly is so good is that it fishes well dry, damp or wet. Willi

Response:

Yeah you’re right, I over reacted and apologize to Sandy.

Not necessary, and not a problem. I did say "it’s interesting how ideas get invented multiple times," didn’t I? Anyway, if you want to play on the internet it helps to have a thick skin. Words come right off the tips of people’s fingertips, and, as such, are easily interpreted in multiple, unintended ways. George somebody (can’t remember his last name) once told me to It was funny. In fact, thanks George. I needed that.

Response:

I just made a new set of step-by-step tying instructions for the world famous ‘Flat Caddis’ This is a fly I’ve been tying for years. It’s an attempt an anatomically more accurate version of the Troth Elk Hair Caddis. This fly does lie flat to the water, like a real caddis fly. And I enjoy tying it. Does it catch more fish than an Elk Hair Caddis? I can’t honestly say yes. It certainly does just as well however, and it floats like a cork. There is something about horizontally oriented parachute hackles that does a better job of floating a dry fly than traditional hackles. http://montana-riverboats.com/pages/pages.php?page_title=FlatCaddis

Response:

I just made a new set of step-by-step tying instructions for the world famous ‘Flat Caddis’

I also like this fly better than a traditional EHC but I like an EHC with no hackle in the body and a traditional hackle, full but slightly undersized, best. I also tie the wing slightly longer than normal. When tied that way, the fly rides the water "full of life" and you can easily give the fly some lifelike action which I think is often a trigger for fish. I also fish an EHC with no hackle at all. It floats reasonably well when totally dry but is most effective down in the film or slightly sunken. Willi

Response:

I just made a new set of step-by-step tying instructions for the world famous ‘Flat Caddis’ I also like this fly better than a traditional EHC but I like an EHC with no hackle in the body and a traditional hackle, full but slightly undersized, best.

I’ve always like the pattern you describe too, Willi, but I’ve never thought of it as simply a variant EHC. I’m pretty sure it has a name of its own but that name escapes me. Anybody? Wolfgang

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just made a new set of step-by-step tying instructions for the world famous ‘Flat Caddis’ I also like this fly better than a traditional EHC but I like an EHC with no hackle in the body and a traditional hackle, full but slightly undersized, best. I’ve always like the pattern you describe too, Willi, but I’ve never thought of it as simply a variant EHC. I’m pretty sure it has a name of its own but that name escapes me. Anybody? Wolfgang

I think this style was first made popular by Ralph Cutter and his e/c caddis http://www.troutflies.com/go.mv?ID=e/c and Bob Brooks Headlight caddis http://www.troutflies.com/go.mv?ID=headlite Harry

Response:

The above patterns are similar to the Flat Caddis Pittendrigh described. The pattern I was describing may have a name, but it evolved for me from a pattern described by Wright that from what I remember, he called a Skittering or Fluttering Caddis. He used spade hackle tips for the wings (some other tiers used mink hairs) that were tied in in three bunches. These materials are hard to get and the wing was hard to tie "right" so the fly would have action and good flotation. I substituted elk/deer hair for the wing. Over time, I lengthened the wing and used more turns of hackle but with a hackle one size smaller than "usual." This makes for a fly that skitters and hops on the surface very easily. Willi

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I also like this fly better than a traditional EHC but I like an EHC with no hackle in the body and a traditional hackle, full but slightly undersized, best. I’ve always like the pattern you describe too, Willi, but I’ve never thought of it as simply a variant EHC. I’m pretty sure it has a name of its own but that name escapes me. Anybody? Wolfgang I think this style was first made popular by Ralph Cutter and his e/c caddis http://www.troutflies.com/go.mv?ID=e/c and Bob Brooks Headlight caddis http://www.troutflies.com/go.mv?ID=headlite The above patterns are similar to the Flat Caddis Pittendrigh described. The pattern I was describing may have a name, but it evolved for me from a pattern described by Wright that from what I remember, he called a Skittering or Fluttering Caddis. He used spade hackle tips for the wings (some other tiers used mink hairs) that were tied in in three bunches. These materials are hard to get and the wing was hard to tie "right" so the fly would have action and good flotation. I substituted elk/deer hair for the wing. Over time, I lengthened the wing and used more turns of hackle but with a hackle one size smaller than "usual." This makes for a fly that skitters and hops on the surface very easily. Willi

I’ve been tying caddis in this style for nearly twenty years and the idea was not original. It was taught to me by the Malignant Dwarf who, if memory serves, learned it from someone else when he began twenty or more years before. Sorry Harry, but what I’m thinking of (and what I believe Willi is describing) doesn’t look much like either of the flies on the pages you cited. Wolfgang

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just made a new set of step-by-step tying instructions for the world famous ‘Flat Caddis’ I also like this fly better than a traditional EHC but I like an EHC with no hackle in the body and a traditional hackle, full but slightly undersized, best. I’ve always like the pattern you describe too, Willi, but I’ve never thought of it as simply a variant EHC. I’m pretty sure it has a name of its own but that name escapes me. Anybody? Wolfgang

I’ve always heard them called Skittering Caddis. There is a version at http://www.hawkeyeflyfishing.com/Fly_patterns/Drys/D15.html ,though the version I prefer has no palmered hackle on the body, but a dense short conventional hackle in front of the wing. BTW I have used a larger version of this fly (light wire size 6 salmon/steelhead hook) to good effect on steelhead this time of year – also effective on trout during the October Caddis hatch Bob Weinberger

Response:

"William Loehman/Susan Schwarz" I also like this fly better than a traditional EHC but I like an EHC with no hackle in the body and a traditional hackle, full but slightly undersized, best. I also tie the wing slightly longer than normal. When tied that way, the fly rides the water "full of life" and you can easily give the fly some lifelike action which I think is often a trigger for fish. I also fish an EHC with no hackle at all. It floats reasonably well when totally dry but is most effective down in the film or slightly sunken.

I like similar styles and particularly like an EHC with a cdc hackle instead of the traditional. Very effective on spring creeks. Clark

Response:

I think this style was first made popular by Ralph Cutter and his e/c caddis http://www.troutflies.com/go.mv?ID=e/c and Bob Brooks Headlight caddis http://www.troutflies.com/go.mv?ID=headlite Harry

Hello Harry: Yes, those flies are interesting: basically the same fly as mine. My proportions are different, and I don’t bother with a dubbed body, but basically it’s the same. Every idea seems to get invented multiple times. I got email from an historian the other day (among other things, he’s tracking down a reference to flies taken along on the Lewis and Clark expedition). Anyway one thing led to another. I mentioned to him I first showed the Flat Caddis to Gary LaFontaine in 1981, at a fly fishing demonstration Gary put on at Dave Kumlein’s Bozeman Orvis shop. Gary liked that fly, and offered to ‘help me get it published.’ In retrospect, I was a fool not to take him up on that.

Response:

Your right I was looking at the Pittendrigh pattern…. how ’bout this one? http://www.troutflies.com/pictures/flys/spent_caddis/spent_caddis.shtml – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I also like this fly better than a traditional EHC but I like an EHC with no hackle in the body and a traditional hackle, full but slightly undersized, best. I’ve always like the pattern you describe too, Willi, but I’ve never thought of it as simply a variant EHC. I’m pretty sure it has a name of its own but that name escapes me. Anybody? Wolfgang I think this style was first made popular by Ralph Cutter and his e/c caddis http://www.troutflies.com/go.mv?ID=e/c and Bob Brooks Headlight caddis http://www.troutflies.com/go.mv?ID=headlite The above patterns are similar to the Flat Caddis Pittendrigh described. The pattern I was describing may have a name, but it evolved for me from a pattern described by Wright that from what I remember, he called a Skittering or Fluttering Caddis. He used spade hackle tips for the wings (some other tiers used mink hairs) that were tied in in three bunches. These materials are hard to get and the wing was hard to tie "right" so the fly would have action and good flotation. I substituted elk/deer hair for the wing. Over time, I lengthened the wing and used more turns of hackle but with a hackle one size smaller than "usual." This makes for a fly that skitters and hops on the surface very easily. Willi I’ve been tying caddis in this style for nearly twenty years and the idea was not original. It was taught to me by the Malignant Dwarf who, if memory serves, learned it from someone else when he began twenty or more years before. Sorry Harry, but what I’m thinking of (and what I believe Willi is describing) doesn’t look much like either of the flies on the pages you cited. Wolfgang

Response:

Anyway one thing led to another. I mentioned to him I first showed the Flat Caddis to Gary LaFontaine in 1981, at a fly fishing demonstration Gary put on at Dave Kumlein’s Bozeman Orvis shop. Gary liked that fly, and offered to ‘help me get it published.’ In retrospect, I was a fool not to take him up on that. IMO, it just a matter of marketing in terms of how a "new" fly name gets recognized and is largely just an ego thing. It seems to me that it is the person responsible for making a particular pattern popular that gets the naming "right", not necessarily the "first" person to tie it. IMO, there are very few unique flies that come out. Most are just minor variations. With the number of tiers out there, virtually all of these variations have been tried by some tiers. Not to criticize your pattern, but I find it highly unlikely that you were the first person to use the elk hair tag as a post for a parachute. Actually, I could give a shit and would be happy to call it the pittendrigh flat wing caddis. Your reaction reminds me of Andy Kim becoming pissed off because other people were using a thread body for their midge nymphs and calling them something other than "Yong" something. Willi

Response:

Your right I was looking at the Pittendrigh pattern…. how ’bout this one? http://www.troutflies.com/pictures/flys/spent_caddis/spent_caddis.shtml That’s the right "style". I like a skinnier body, shorter denser hackle and a longer wing. Willi

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gary put on at Dave Kumlein’s Bozeman Orvis shop. Gary liked that fly, and offered to ‘help me get it published.’ In retrospect, I was a fool not to take him up on that. Your reaction reminds me of Andy Kim becoming pissed off because other people were using a thread body for their midge nymphs and calling them something other than "Yong" something. Willi, I’ve never read that sort of atitude into Sandy’s posts, and don’t really see it in this one. Sandy puts up detailed patterns and tying instructions for basically altruistic reasons (as far as I can tell). I have always appreciated his posts and his ROFF presence. To me his comment above was a simple honest statement of having had a chance to accept help from a very well-known person and for some reason passing it up.

Yeah you’re right, I over reacted and apologize to Sandy. I also value his input here and on ROFFT and think that he does have some very innovative ideas especially in his use of foam. I was on Andy Kim’s website the other night and read his rants and……. The naming of flies and credit for designing them has always seemed like a weird thing to me. It seems to me to be more fame or ego or money or advertising related than substance. There are very few truly new patterns. Most are just SLIGHT modifications of other patterns being used. EVERY tier that has been tying for any length of time routinely ties his own patterns whether purposeful or inadvertent. Few patterns remain true to the original. More significant to me is when someone comes up with the idea for incorporating new materials into a fly or coming up with new techniques for tying or creating a new style of fly. But who knows who was the first person to use CDC on a fly or beadheads or foam or epoxy or who was the first to use a parachute hackle or dubbing twist or ……. If some famous person in the golden retriever world liked your work and offered to put a plug in for you, wouldn’t you feel the same way?

No Willi

Response:

…. how ’bout this one? http://www.troutflies.com/pictures/flys/spent_caddis/spent_caddis.shtml

Yep, that’s the one I had in mind. Interesting body in the photo. Herl? Wolfgang

Response:

Here is a variation using CDC http://www.troutflies.com/rofft/cdc/downwing.shtml – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Your right I was looking at the Pittendrigh pattern…. how ’bout this one? http://www.troutflies.com/pictures/flys/spent_caddis/spent_caddis.shtml That’s the right "style". I like a skinnier body, shorter denser hackle and a longer wing. Willi

Response:

Here is a variation using CDC http://www.troutflies.com/rofft/cdc/downwing.shtml

Tie that in black and you just might have a winner for the Bighorn.

Response:

I do tie it in black, I would show you ‘cepting my new DC has not made it to my door. I made the mistake of buying it over the net from what c/net describes as 4 star rated seller(good rating). I did get one after 10 days, plugged it in and the LED read "system error". The manual says send back to Nikon if this error shows up. Back to the seller it went…now they tell me all of the Nikons they have are defective… I asked for my money back after three weeks of hassles and BS. I do not believe a thing these dudes say now , pity I have spent hula bucks with them in the past. No more, the sales manager would not even return my calls. BuyRiteDigital….beware – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here is a variation using CDC http://www.troutflies.com/rofft/cdc/downwing.shtml Tie that in black and you just might have a winner for the Bighorn.

Response:

…. how ’bout this one? http://www.troutflies.com/pictures/flys/spent_caddis/spent_caddis.shtml Yep, that’s the one I had in mind. Interesting body in the photo. Herl? Wolfgang

Yep that be herl… you should reinforce the stuff though, rope it, or a thread rib. I find this bug works well on the Yellowstone for some reason. Cutts eat it, but then, they eat lots of things most of the time

Response:

…..Herl? Yep that be herl… you should reinforce the stuff though, rope it, or a thread rib. I find this bug works well on the Yellowstone for some reason. Cutts eat it, but then, they eat lots of things most of the time

Response:

Author: admin on
Category: Fly Fishing Flies
Tags: Fly Fishing Flies

Fly Fishing Fisherman Wiki » Fly Fishing » TR: Fillin in the holes

TR: Fillin in the holes

Question:

Wolfgang writes: Evidently, there is more than one way to tie a "surgeon’s" knot.

and yours is better, my man. Had real pretty knots fishing on Thursday. You should be proud! your grateful Clavemeister

Response:

and you didn’t push – you’re all slipping. I sat on the bank of Pine creek next to Tom Littleton one evening while waiting for a hatch to come off and watched him make a couple of desultory casts to pass the time. After a few moments I politely inquired, "What the fuck did you do to that leader?" Evidently, there is more than one way to tie a "surgeon’s" knot. I want to talk to the Pennsylvania Guy Who Names Things. A "creek" might be adequate to render a Suburban invisible but should not be large enough to hide a suburb in. Ya’ll got too many Pine creeks!

So they ran outta names – not an erudite lot, eh? Had this event been held the third week in June, with it’s longer days, me and Asadi might have had just about enough daylight to discover New York and plant the ROFFian flag, thus claiming it as our own for all time…..maybe next year.

Can we give it back after? (hate to be stuck with a noow yawk) I caught a brookie on an orange caddis provided by George Cleveland. I win! Thanks, George. Snapshot: Wayno wears running bras. Boy needs a lesson in anatomy, though. Nuff said.

He’s had too many lessons, that’s the problem. The typical coloration of a whitetail deer faun provides excellent camouflage and it’s practice of sitting motionless is a time tested survival strategy……in its native habitat…..sucks on a gray gravel road though. Photos available soon.

any blood splats? For those who have not yet heard: I misplaced my Gerber (not to be confused with gerbil) multitool….one of those collapsible combination pliers, bottle opener, knife, etc., etc., thingies. If it turns up anywhere, I will consider any reasonable ransom demand.

sorry, no gerbil here – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I fished my new fly rod for the first time….seven and a half foot, three weight, built on a St. Croix Legend Ultra blank by our own Joel Axelrad…..sweet, VERY sweet! Thank you Joel (who will not see this for some time as he is presumably somewhere in Minnesota, en route to the Prairie Pike Clave). Everybody who attends a ROFFian clave brings (and/or purchases on site) more beer and/or distilled spirits than he himself consumes. This is the best evidence to date of some sort of cross dimensional transport. Hail does NOT improve the fishing! Pennsylvania blackflies suck just like our version up here in the Great Lakes region. :( Don’t bother fishing Lyman lake. No fish. Not all that surprising, come to think of it….. no water. Frog’s Fanny works. Having just completed the calculations, I am pleased to announce that Frank Reid’s fly box has a surface area of about 3.63 acres. Just prior to my departure for home yesterday, I returned to Mike Makela the bulk of the half cord of toilet paper with which he supplied the clavesters…..evidently we all went home as full of shit as when we arrived.

from what I heard, a lot got shot as well However they may state it, most ROFFians believe that their chosen avocation is a means of getting closer to God, or some such metaphysical rumination. I got real close the other day. He yelled at me….said, "GET THE HELL OUT OF MY CREEK!", or something to that effect. I listened……FAST! :(

wazzat you? I enjoyed the week immensely. It was great to catch up with friends and make new ones. Shit, even Willi isn’t near as mean in person as he looks on ROFF! Wolfgang and pj really IS a sweetheart!

Louie has a real dumbfuck picture of you. better pay him off real quick. Cheers Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Wolfgang writes: Evidently, there is more than one way to tie a "surgeon’s" knot. and yours is better, my man. Had real pretty knots fishing on Thursday. You should be proud! your grateful Clavemeister

Delighted to be of service! It DOES sort of highlight the difficulties inherent in this medium though, don’t it? Wolfgang o.k., so, would someone please explai……ah shit, never mind.

Response:

Great report, Wolfie. I look forward to my first opportunity to attend a clave. -Jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – By now, the second annual Penn’s creek clave is mostly history and well chronicled at that. However, there remain a few items worthy of note. Snapshot: Half a dozen or so guys stand on a bridge, munching hot dogs thoughtfully provided and cooked by Mike Shaw, and watching one of their brothers kneeling on the bank, casting repeatedly to a sporadically rising fish. Many suggestions about where to put the fly are offered, as well as commentary on casting technique. No one says anything but one thought looms in all minds……lean forward just a bit more, Frank….just a wee bit more! :) I sat on the bank of Pine creek next to Tom Littleton one evening while waiting for a hatch to come off and watched him make a couple of desultory casts to pass the time. After a few moments I politely inquired, "What the fuck did you do to that leader?" Evidently, there is more than one way to tie a "surgeon’s" knot. I want to talk to the Pennsylvania Guy Who Names Things. A "creek" might be adequate to render a Suburban invisible but should not be large enough to hide a suburb in. Ya’ll got too many Pine creeks! Had this event been held the third week in June, with it’s longer days, me and Asadi might have had just about enough daylight to discover New York and plant the ROFFian flag, thus claiming it as our own for all time…..maybe next year. I caught a brookie on an orange caddis provided by George Cleveland. I win! Thanks, George. Snapshot: Wayno wears running bras. Boy needs a lesson in anatomy, though. Nuff said. The typical coloration of a whitetail deer faun provides excellent camouflage and it’s practice of sitting motionless is a time tested survival strategy……in its native habitat…..sucks on a gray gravel road though. Photos available soon. For those who have not yet heard: I misplaced my Gerber (not to be confused with gerbil) multitool….one of those collapsible combination pliers, bottle opener, knife, etc., etc., thingies. If it turns up anywhere, I will consider any reasonable ransom demand. I fished my new fly rod for the first time….seven and a half foot, three weight, built on a St. Croix Legend Ultra blank by our own Joel Axelrad…..sweet, VERY sweet! Thank you Joel (who will not see this for some time as he is presumably somewhere in Minnesota, en route to the Prairie Pike Clave). Everybody who attends a ROFFian clave brings (and/or purchases on site) more beer and/or distilled spirits than he himself consumes. This is the best evidence to date of some sort of cross dimensional transport. Hail does NOT improve the fishing! Pennsylvania blackflies suck just like our version up here in the Great Lakes region. :( Don’t bother fishing Lyman lake. No fish. Not all that surprising, come to think of it….. no water. Frog’s Fanny works. Having just completed the calculations, I am pleased to announce that Frank Reid’s fly box has a surface area of about 3.63 acres. Just prior to my departure for home yesterday, I returned to Mike Makela the bulk of the half cord of toilet paper with which he supplied the clavesters…..evidently we all went home as full of shit as when we arrived. However they may state it, most ROFFians believe that their chosen avocation is a means of getting closer to God, or some such metaphysical rumination. I got real close the other day. He yelled at me….said, "GET THE HELL OUT OF MY CREEK!", or something to that effect. I listened……FAST! :( I enjoyed the week immensely. It was great to catch up with friends and make new ones. Shit, even Willi isn’t near as mean in person as he looks on ROFF! Wolfgang and pj really IS a sweetheart!

Response:

By now, the second annual Penn’s creek clave is mostly history and well chronicled at that. However, there remain a few items worthy of note. Snapshot: Half a dozen or so guys stand on a bridge, munching hot dogs thoughtfully provided and cooked by Mike Shaw, and watching one of their brothers kneeling on the bank, casting repeatedly to a sporadically rising fish. Many suggestions about where to put the fly are offered, as well as commentary on casting technique. No one says anything but one thought looms in all minds……lean forward just a bit more, Frank….just a wee bit more! :) I sat on the bank of Pine creek next to Tom Littleton one evening while waiting for a hatch to come off and watched him make a couple of desultory casts to pass the time. After a few moments I politely inquired, "What the fuck did you do to that leader?" Evidently, there is more than one way to tie a "surgeon’s" knot. I want to talk to the Pennsylvania Guy Who Names Things. A "creek" might be adequate to render a Suburban invisible but should not be large enough to hide a suburb in. Ya’ll got too many Pine creeks! Had this event been held the third week in June, with it’s longer days, me and Asadi might have had just about enough daylight to discover New York and plant the ROFFian flag, thus claiming it as our own for all time…..maybe next year. I caught a brookie on an orange caddis provided by George Cleveland. I win! Thanks, George. Snapshot: Wayno wears running bras. Boy needs a lesson in anatomy, though. Nuff said. The typical coloration of a whitetail deer faun provides excellent camouflage and it’s practice of sitting motionless is a time tested survival strategy……in its native habitat…..sucks on a gray gravel road though. Photos available soon. For those who have not yet heard: I misplaced my Gerber (not to be confused with gerbil) multitool….one of those collapsible combination pliers, bottle opener, knife, etc., etc., thingies. If it turns up anywhere, I will consider any reasonable ransom demand. I fished my new fly rod for the first time….seven and a half foot, three weight, built on a St. Croix Legend Ultra blank by our own Joel Axelrad…..sweet, VERY sweet! Thank you Joel (who will not see this for some time as he is presumably somewhere in Minnesota, en route to the Prairie Pike Clave). Everybody who attends a ROFFian clave brings (and/or purchases on site) more beer and/or distilled spirits than he himself consumes. This is the best evidence to date of some sort of cross dimensional transport. Hail does NOT improve the fishing! Pennsylvania blackflies suck just like our version up here in the Great Lakes region. :( Don’t bother fishing Lyman lake. No fish. Not all that surprising, come to think of it….. no water. Frog’s Fanny works. Having just completed the calculations, I am pleased to announce that Frank Reid’s fly box has a surface area of about 3.63 acres. Just prior to my departure for home yesterday, I returned to Mike Makela the bulk of the half cord of toilet paper with which he supplied the clavesters…..evidently we all went home as full of shit as when we arrived. However they may state it, most ROFFians believe that their chosen avocation is a means of getting closer to God, or some such metaphysical rumination. I got real close the other day. He yelled at me….said, "GET THE HELL OUT OF MY CREEK!", or something to that effect. I listened……FAST! :( I enjoyed the week immensely. It was great to catch up with friends and make new ones. Shit, even Willi isn’t near as mean in person as he looks on ROFF! Wolfgang and pj really IS a sweetheart!

Response:

Author: admin on
Category: Fly Fishing
Tags: Fly Fishing

Fly Fishing Fisherman Wiki » Fly Fishing » Dominican Republic(fly-fishing)

Dominican Republic(fly-fishing)

Question:

Seeking infro. on salt water fly-fishing in the DR, thankx in advance, Stan

Response:

J R Hartley is the person to ask

Seeking infro. on salt water fly-fishing in the DR, thankx in advance, Stan

Response:

HA,HA Cougar Ric! How many years have you been waiting to say that?? — –Sent via BritishExpats Forums: http://britishexpats.com

Response:

lol, i couldn’t resist it! — Tune into my radio station. Playing the best in rock 24 hours a day! http://www.live365.com/cgi-bin/directory.cgi?autostart=cougar_ric – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – HA,HA Cougar Ric! How many years have you been waiting to say that?? — –Sent via BritishExpats Forums: http://britishexpats.com

Response:

Author: admin on
Category: Fly Fishing
Tags: Fly Fishing

Fly Fishing Fisherman Wiki » Fly Fishing » fluorocarbon line

fluorocarbon line

Question:

FWIW, several years ago I conducted an experiment to compare fluorocarbon tippet with "standard" tippet on a spring creek where the fish were somewhat leader-shy. There really did not seem to be a significant difference between the two. When fish approached my fly from the leader side, they tended to refuse my offering, but would take the fly if they approached from some other direction.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – been using orvis super strong 6x & 7x tippet with good results. found out today they make a fluorocarbon tippet. told it is invisible in water! its slightly larger in dia. per equivalent test of mono though. its also pricey. $10.00/25 meters. any one tried it?

Response:

: been using orvis super strong 6x & 7x tippet with good results. found out : today they make a fluorocarbon tippet. told it is invisible in water! its : slightly larger in dia. per equivalent test of mono though. its also pricey. : $10.00/25 meters. : any one tried it? I haven’t tried the Orvis line … however I found the brand I used very useful for getting (dragging) small wet flies (18-20) through scummy surface films in backwaters and the like. It certainly helps sink small wets that may otherwise tend to float in still water. steve

Response:

says… Forget about it for dry flies. It’s too stiff, so it ruins the drag. My impression is that it’s best for streamers in large-tippet situations, like bonefishing. I’m planning to take a couple of spools of 10lb and 13lb fluorocarbon tippet to Xmas Island.

Berkley’s got a new line out called Vanish… It’s a Fluorocarbon Line but it’s much more supple than the other kinds I have tried. I have a spool of 12lb test I use for my salt water Fly Gear. I also use it for part of leaders as well in the butt section to make it stiffer… — Michael Era

Author: admin on
Category: Fly Fishing
Tags: Fly Fishing

Fly Fishing Fisherman Wiki » Fly Fishing » Help my forward cast please

Help my forward cast please

Question:

I need some help casting. I’m fairly new to the sport and trying to improve all the time. I just bought my second rod and spent a lot more money on it. I did it right this time, I hope. However, that’s have nothing to do with my problem. I was out at our local park practicing my casting. The back cast looked good, the loop was fairly small and shot backwards like two horizontal lines that straightened out to one. I let the line continue to straighten out and then made my forward cast without whipping the rod. The line moved over my head and rolled in front of me. That’s the problem. The forward cast had a large loop instead of shooting straight forward. I should mention that there was a very slight wind that I was casting into. However, it was a very slight wind. I’ve been told to close up the loop in the back and it will help eliminate the forward loop. However, I think my back cast looks good. How can I get rid of the large loop in my forward cast? Any advise will help. I will try all requests at my local park before driving out to the field.

Response:

I should have said that this regarding fly fishing. Thanks

Response:

Author: admin on
Category: Fly Fishing
Tags: Fly Fishing

Fly Fishing Fisherman Wiki » Fly Fishing Flies » Rookie Questions

Rookie Questions

Question:

To jfraser, about the first question regarding losing flies from snagging- you were right-its part of the sport. Nymphs, to be most effective have to be fished bouncing on the bottom. I do not know how deep the water where you fish at is but one thing I do is use a floating line and run my leader length the same depth as the stream. I then add split shots to the leader according to the speed of the current just until I feel my nymph just touching the bottom. The floating line helps me control my drift better and I can dectect strikes more often. For casting, I always believed in a quartering cast upstream and a drag free float. On streamers/wet flies at the end of the drift let you fly arc around. a lot of strikes will occur as you fly comes around

Response:

I’d like to thank you and everybody else who is sending me feedback and tips. You ROFF gang are a real friendly bunch! Best Regards, Jeremy Fraser —

Yeah, and if you want this bunch to stay friendly Jeremy, never start a C&R/C&K thread! ;-) Frank Church USAF Retired Elkhart, IN

Response:

I have just started to learn a few things about trout fly fishing, but there are a couple of questions I haven’t found the answers to in any books or in the ROFF FAQ. Can anybody help me answer these? 1) I’m losing piles of flies casting Type II sinking tip into moving water. I tend to lose them by snagging and I’m wondering if this is just part of the sport or if I’m doing something wrong…? Can I prevent bottom snags by using strike indicators, shorter leaders, slower sink tip fly lines, a combination of the three or by doing something else? Don’t I want to get egg, leech, etc. patterns down on the bottom of rivers below the current? 2) I’ve read so much about casting and 10 to 2, 11 to 1, etc. and this has all been useful (I’m still trying to tame out a nasty tailing loop). I even went to a casting clinic — which was very helpful in getting me thinking about good casting technique. The puzzling thing to me, which hasn’t been well described to me yet, is the retrieve. I am predominantly wanting to fish rivers so I assume this plays a part in retrieving. I also assume that different patterns (wet/dry, terrestrial/non-terrestrial, leech/minnow) call for different retrieve strategies. To me this really means thinking about how your retrieve will sucker the fish into believing your fly is the real thing, therefore I wouldn’t think it would make much sense to retrieve an egg pattern fly with much style because the fly’s "action" would be in the free float of the eggs in the current. I’m sure the retrieve is important in still water; however, is it worth giving much thought to it in moving water or should I just be focusing on getting my fly in the right place in/on the current for the duration of it’s "drag-free" float? Any comments/assistance would be appreciated! Thanks in advance, Jeremy Fraser

Response:

1) I’m losing piles of flies casting Type II sinking tip into moving water. I tend to lose them by snagging and I’m wondering if this is just part of the sport or if I’m doing something wrong…?

Snagging flies is to some extent just the price of entry. But, with experience, I find myself losing fewer flies than I used to for two reasons: 1. Some casts I might have made in the past, I realize now will simply end up with a snag and no fish. So I don’t cast. 2. I’m a lot better at unsnagging a snagged fly. Generally if you walk upstream of your fly, and pull back on the line in the opposite direction it entered the snag, perhaps extending your rod tip to the center of the stream, it will come free without a problem. If it still doesn’t come out, walk further upstream, and try again. It’s very rare that I have to break off a fly. Today probably lose one fly when before I would have lost 5 or 6. Suspect your averages will improve too. is it worth giving much thought to it in moving water or should I just be focusing on getting my fly in the right place in/on the current for the duration of it’s "drag-free" float?

99%+ of the time with nymphs or terrestials, what you want is a drag free float. Achieving this is what much of becoming a good fisherman is about, and is something I’m still learning. The techniques of mending, and special casts such as a reach or curved cast, or slack line casts, are very powerful. A lot of what I learned, I was exposed to by friends or guides, then had to learn by myself on the water. If you’re having trouble keeping a drag free float in a situation, it pays to experiment with different mends or casts until you get it right (even if the fish are gone). Doug Swisher’s advanced casting video has a great introduction to casts which can help you in tricky situations (e.g. a reach cast). And John Judy has written a book on slack line technique which is interesting, if a bit esoteric. Michael

Response:

1) I’m losing piles of flies casting Type II sinking tip into moving

water. I’m not sure why you are using sinking line. Unless you are fishing really deep runs consistently (or perhaps fishing streamers??), you should be using floating line. Your leader is all that should be sinking. An important key to nymph fishing is proper depth. You should use an indicator that’s adjusted so that your fly moves with the current but occasionally gets delayed by riverbed obstacles. If you are constantly hanging up or catching moss on your fly, move your indicator closer to your fly, if aren’t getting any false "hits" as you drift, you’re too far off the bottom. The trick is to have your fly or flies tumbling around in the eddy-like turbulent layer of water produced by the interaction of the current with the riverbottom structure. That’s where the fish spend a lot of time feeding. Use an indicator that’s easy to move up and down your line so that you will be encouraged to change it as you move to new spots on the stream. Adjusting depth has produced more strikes for me (in a drift zone I’ve already fished unsuccessfully) than any other change (such as change of weight or fly type). Proper weighting is also a key factor. If you have the right amount of weight. When you cast 1/4 up stream, the ideal is to have your flies "in the zone" as they pass the point straight out from you, cross-current. Too much weight and you’ll definitely be getting stuck a lot on the bottom. Too little and you won’t be spending much time "in the zone" for each drift. Personally, I find that if I must use more weight, I get hung up less if I use a couple of small split shot together rather than a larger shot of equivalent weight. The advice about walking up stream to pull the fly out of the snag the way it went in is a really good one. I’ve saved many a fly this way. 2) … The puzzling thing to me, which hasn’t been well described to me yet, is the retrieve….

For 95% of dry fly fishing, only dead drift will generate strikes. Some caddis flies do skid along the surface and there are some techniques for imparting action that is natural. The most important part about the retrieve in dry fly fishing is not to make a big splash or otherwise disturb the water with your initial backcast. Start your back cast with a brief, slow pull to get the fly moving (especially if it has sunk below the surface) and then use full energy after it’s moving. Try doing it the wrong way a few times, then the right way. You’ll see a big difference in the amount of disturbance created as you backcast. When nymphing, you will generate some strikes on the retrieve simply because the pause between each pull causes an alteration in the flies movement that can mimic prey in trouble. Fish sometimes key on this and you get strikes. Retrieve technique is most important when streamer fishing, but I do not do that much, so I can’t say much about it. Good luck. — -dnc-

Response:

Dear Rookie, I’ve found that using floating line with a stike intcator and a small bead head or tiny weight helps to prevent losing all the flys. I like to use what I call a "pendalum" approach to tying up my flies and weight. First you take a separate piece of tippet about three to six inches long and tie it to your tippet line (or leader) about two to three inches form the bottom of your line. Then you put your weight(what ever size you feel is nessicery) on the shorter of the two ends (usually the orriginal line). Next you tie your choice of fly to the other piece of line and you are ready to go. The theory is that when the wieght gets hung up on the bottom, it will just slide off and your fly will remain attached. Granted you will have to replace the wieght, but it’s much more cost efficient than replacing flies. I also recomend using a strike indicator. Good luck, and I hope that my description made sence. Aaron

Response:

I think you’re right about casting sinking tip. I’m going to try casting the floating line I’ve got and see if I have better results. I’ll also try sticking a strike indicator on and see if that helps me at all. I’d like to thank you and everybody else who is sending me feedback and tips. You ROFF gang are a real friendly bunch! Best Regards, Jeremy Fraser — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1) I’m losing piles of flies casting Type II sinking tip into moving water. I’m not sure why you are using sinking line. Unless you are fishing really deep runs consistently (or perhaps fishing streamers??), you should be using floating line. Your leader is all that should be sinking. An important key to nymph fishing is proper depth. You should use an indicator that’s adjusted so that your fly moves with the current but occasionally gets delayed by riverbed obstacles. If you are constantly hanging up or catching moss on your fly, move your indicator closer to your fly, if aren’t getting any false "hits" as you drift, you’re too far off the bottom. The trick is to have your fly or flies tumbling around in the eddy-like turbulent layer of water produced by the interaction of the current with the riverbottom structure. That’s where the fish spend a lot of time feeding. Use an indicator that’s easy to move up and down your line so that you will be encouraged to change it as you move to new spots on the stream. Adjusting depth has produced more strikes for me (in a drift zone I’ve already fished unsuccessfully) than any other change (such as change of weight or fly type). Proper weighting is also a key factor. If you have the right amount of weight. When you cast 1/4 up stream, the ideal is to have your flies "in the zone" as they pass the point straight out from you, cross-current. Too much weight and you’ll definitely be getting stuck a lot on the bottom. Too little and you won’t be spending much time "in the zone" for each drift. Personally, I find that if I must use more weight, I get hung up less if I use a couple of small split shot together rather than a larger shot of equivalent weight. The advice about walking up stream to pull the fly out of the snag the way it went in is a really good one. I’ve saved many a fly this way. 2) … The puzzling thing to me, which hasn’t been well described to me yet, is the retrieve…. For 95% of dry fly fishing, only dead drift will generate strikes. Some caddis flies do skid along the surface and there are some techniques for imparting action that is natural. The most important part about the retrieve in dry fly fishing is not to make a big splash or otherwise disturb the water with your initial backcast. Start your back cast with a brief, slow pull to get the fly moving (especially if it has sunk below the surface) and then use full energy after it’s moving. Try doing it the wrong way a few times, then the right way. You’ll see a big difference in the amount of disturbance created as you backcast. When nymphing, you will generate some strikes on the retrieve simply because the pause between each pull causes an alteration in the flies movement that can mimic prey in trouble. Fish sometimes key on this and you get strikes. Retrieve technique is most important when streamer fishing, but I do not do that much, so I can’t say much about it. Good luck. — -dnc-

Response:

Author: admin on
Category: Fly Fishing Flies
Tags: Fly Fishing Flies

Fly Fishing Fisherman Wiki » River Fly Fishing » Canoe advice for beginner?

Canoe advice for beginner?

Question:

I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer.

Me too. I don’t know how far around the block this conversation has gone, but for my way over 2-cents worth of experience goes, there is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer. Period. Anyone buying a canoe should plan an spending a little more for this boat as a starter, then expect to never need to buy another all-around canoe again. See my sig file. — riverman I think, therefore I thwim. Carpe ropum. "There is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer. Period."

Response:

I love Mad River boats BUT one might get a little argument about the Explorer being the best all rounder from Swift Kipawa fans. who would suggest that the Kipawa is more stable more speedy (and faster too) more capacious more maneuverable more white water capable more seaworthy and more perttier. — Lyle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer. Me too. I don’t know how far around the block this conversation has gone, but for my way over 2-cents worth of experience goes, there is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer. Period. Anyone buying a canoe should plan an spending a little more for this boat as a starter, then expect to never need to buy another all-around canoe again. See my sig file. — riverman I think, therefore I thwim. Carpe ropum. "There is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer. Period."

Response:

I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer. Me too. I don’t know how far around the block this conversation has gone, but for my way over 2-cents worth of experience goes, there is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer. Period. Anyone buying a canoe should plan an spending a little more for this boat as a starter, then expect to never need to buy another all-around canoe again. See my sig file.

If you want one boat that will do everything, I agree (though I haven’t tried the Swift). If you want a boat for primarily or exclusively flatwater, then there are better choices out there in composite/fiberglass/kevlar — Andrew

Response:

I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer.

It’s been a while since I purchased my first boat, and I don’t know much about what’s out there, but my general comment would be buy the best boat you can afford. Don’t spare the horses. Talk to people in a local canoe and kayak club, and get their recommendations on brands. Tell them what you want to do with the boat–that’s the important part.

Response:

I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer. It’s been a while since I purchased my first boat, and I don’t know much about what’s out there, but my general comment would be buy the best boat you can afford. Don’t spare the horses. Talk to people in a local canoe and kayak club, and get their recommendations on brands. Tell them what you want to do with the boat–that’s the important part.

I’ve been a kayaker for a while now, but just recently my new girlfriend wanted a canoe for us. Have been looking for a used Royalite, or Royalex canoe for a couple months — just today we found it! I consulted with other canoe-types in the club, and this Mohawk Nova 16 (or other similar brands/models) seemed to do it all. It is Royalex. This is the exact one we got today, used for $500 with four float bags. Boats like this are sort of "Do It All" dealies. Each time some new person asks "Which Canoe should i get?" i always say ‘Buy a used, decent brand’ and this is the first time i’ve had to try it out. We like this boat!

Response:

I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer. I own both an Old Town Discovery and the Explorer, and find the Old Town is too heavy to carry any distance (not to mention lift). The Explorer is lighter, handles better, and yes, it’s easier on the eyes. The Discovery might plow through rocks better, but takes on water in the slightest chops. I used to own a Coleman, I’m glad it died an ugly rocky death long ago. http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/5189/index.htm Reach out and touch a rock – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

Response:

The coleman is a good boat for short paddles around a quiet lake once in a while

With a dang, clanging Coleman, the lake’s not going to stay quiet for long. It’s practically a percussion instrument Eddy "Colemans are for keeping beer cool" Rapid.

Response:

It sounds like you’ve been doing your research. I agree with all your points. About three years ago, I faced the same question. Like you, I wanted the best for the least. I purchased a OT Disco158. I like it fine but if I had the opportunity to make that decision again, I would save a little more money and by the lighter boat with a more efficient hull. I use it mostly for day paddling with my wife or fishing with my children. I’ve run a class III in it but don’t suggest it. I’ve paddled it 32 miles through the Okeefenokee swamp and camped out of it. I am not interested in getting rid of it but, would not buy another. I understand the Disco169 has a more efficient hull but, it weighs in at a hefty 85lbs. You will find that weight makes more of a difference than you think. I can car-top my 80lb canoe by myself but "it ain’t pretty." The yolk makes it easier to carry but it still weighs 80lbs. A lighter canoe will respond better to corrections/steering and may even be a little faster. If you can stand to wait, I’d recommend it. You’ll just end up wanting to buy different one in a few years. I would have by now but I am discovering both sea and whitewater kayaks! Oh yeah, one other thing. If you really think you’re going to enjoy the sport, don’t give the Coleman too much thought. You really DO get what you pay for in a canoe. Eric da Grate – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

Response:

Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death…

~* s n i p *~ If you don’t mind the $65 or so shipping charge, try calling one of the companies someone mentioned else mentioned earlier: Rutabaga in Madison, Wisconsin sells LOTS of boats. They always have new Old Town blems on hand at a greatly reduced rate. Not a bad deal for a first boat. They will be getting lots of used boats in another month after their annual "Canoecopia" show; many people will be trading in their boats for something new. Give them a call at 800-472-3353 (800-I-PADDLE) or check out their website: www.paddlers.com Tell Darren I sent ya. Good luck. — To reply by email, remove mapson. from the edress Check out the links page at this site: www.paddlers.com

Response:

Thank you all for the replies & advice. I realize that researching a purchase like this, then even trying out different boats would be the best of all worlds, but hearing from folks that have been there is also a definite help. Thanks again!

Response:

If the Coleman is the only way you are going to get on the water, do it! If you want a boat, get one of the others. Go demo some boats. The newsgroups cannot tell you how you will feel in a boat. you need to try them. Borrow a Coleman and then you can feel the pain in your lower back as you haul it to the water. Then you will be informed. Try a lake boat with a keel in a moving river and learn why a keel is not too swell in moving water. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

patrickatcyberhighwaydotnet

Response:

Hello!

Well hello to you! I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe.

Actually, they aren’t. Not compared to Old Town, Mad RIver, Mohawk, etc. I wouldn’t want to hit too many rocks with a coleman. Aluminum canoes are extremely durable, but, and this is a BIG BUTT, it’s hard to keep the suckers quiet. Each and every time you place your paddle in the boat, you and every fish within 300 feet will hear the ‘thud’. I hear the Boy Scouts using them all the time at Upper Priest lake in Idaho…very noisy. already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

You live around here in Spokane? You join the Spokane Canoe and Kayak Club yet? I’m the newsletter editor. We’re having our largest meeting/auction/potluck of the year come February 26th — next friday. If you wanna see a LOT of activity, come see it. Email me if you want more info.

Response:

For the money you’re looking to spend, I would suggest you test paddle an OT Penobscot 17. I’ve used mine quite a bit on lakes in minneapolis and in the BWCA. It’s got moderate initial stability, fantastic secondary stability. It has no rocker so it tracks like a arrow, but turns like a pig. Leaning into a turn can give you a good bit of effective rocker. Its a great tripping boat.

Response:

Tom, I was in your position a few years ago, let me tell you what I bought. I found that the best tradeoff for weight, durability, and cost, for lake and occasional class I/II rivers is fiberglass. Not the cheap chopper gun variety, but a canoe made up of decent sheet materials. I chose a Wenonah, largely because I have a great local dealer who sells them (as well as Mad River). Fiberglass advantages are hull stiffness without bulk which = paddling efficiency, no flex while paddling, easily repairable if it does become damaged, etc. Fiberglass slips across rocks in a low water condition much better than aluminum – avoid that material at all costs if you plan on running low water. About the only disadvantage is that the gel coat looks beautiful when new, and quickly gets scraped up pretty bad – but that means you’re actually USING the boat, doesn’t it? Your ideal boat in a plastic would be royalex – much lighter than the Old Town crosslink. It’s well worth the upgrade cost. I see tons of the Discovery boats for sale – and no royalex boats for sale!! You don’t find many (good) canoes for sale, because most people have no reason to sell them! They’re not that expensive, and last a lifetime with reasonable care. Good luck! Lou – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

Response:

Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

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Yes, it has been done a lot, infact I bet a search on dejanews (www.dejanews.com) would answer most if not all your questions. The coleman is a good boat for short paddles around a quiet lake once in a while, or for giving to a scout troop to learn in (cheap and nigh on industructible). I have an old town discovery 164 which is about the same as the penobscott, just weighs more… a lot more on a long portage. Personally I’d look around for a used good boat, and stay away from the colemans. Hope this helps Rich Johnson Enfield Nova Scotia Canada

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For flatwater, class I and Class II a good quality fiberglass (cloth, not spray in chopper gun) canoe would be the best bet. I’d look for a used one, some places (like Rutabaga in Madison, WI and Piragis in ELY, MN) sell a number of used boats like that. A new We-No-Nah in Tufweave (fiberglass like) can be had for $8-900. Western Canoeing has similar boats. Used Kevlar could be in the same range, used fiberglass less. These would work for Class I, not good for Class III, Class II depends on skill level. For mostly whitewater, Royalex is a better choice, but maybe you can borrow a canoe for those infrequent forays? It will be heavier and harder to paddle. Coleman’s are a poor design, Discovery’s are (in the 16′ 9" and 17′ 4" versions) an okay design, but overy heavy and don’t have the long term durability of Royalex. Aluminum is a fine material for flatwater, as good or better than plastic, but can be dangerous in whitewater and a pain in shallow rivers as it tends to stick to rocks, so it’s easy to get stuck and broach. I’d rather (actually I do) have a 17′ Grumman than a Coleman or Discovery. I’d look for a quality fiberglass or used Kevlar boat from We-No-Nah, Mad River, Western, Sawyer. — Andrew Gooding

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Author: admin on
Category: River Fly Fishing
Tags: River Fly Fishing

Fly Fishing Fisherman Wiki » Fly Fishing Rods » A conundrum

A conundrum

Question:

I very much doubt you could break an 8lb tippet with a 5wt rod without either seriously damaging the rod or pointing the rod straight at the fish. The secret of all fishing is to use balanced tackle, that way you can use your tackle to it’s maximum without running the risk of damaging it. — Regards Peter Kay (Remove "nospam" to email) :The guy is full of unmitigated bull hooie. The tippet is the defining :element. If you can break the tippet with the rod, and the tippet is

Response:

Sorry Mu, You’re wrong, and so is the guy in the shop. Drag has nothing to do with it, the breaking strength of the tippet and how much pressure you can put to the fish as a result of that breaking strength is the question here The size of the rod only matters in regards to the weight of the line when casting and in your desire to keep that rod intact when playing a fish. If you are using 4 lb. tippet on an 8 wt. rod there is no way you can apply as much pressure on the fish than you can with an equivalent length rod in 6 wt. and 8 lb. tippet. The only reason that it would be better for the fish to use a 4 lb. tippet is that the fish will probably break off sooner and recover faster. Any steelhead worth half his salt would destroy a 4 lb. tippet in seconds. If the angler was very skilled he would be able to baby that fish in eventually, but at what price? The fish will be mortally exhausted from a half hour struggle to the beach. Chances of recovery of this fish is poor. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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I thought a conundrum was what you wore for safe sex!!

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<< I thought a conundrum was what you wore for safe sex!! Nope, that’s a carborundrum. A conundrum is is a kind of Arabian boss.

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You are thinking of a condominium. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail GO TO http://users.ccnet.com/~emh FOR TRAVEL TIE BOX PLANS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I thought a conundrum was what you wore for safe sex!!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The rod wt does make a difference. If you are fighting a 2lb trout with say 6x tippet you are more likely to land the fish with a 4wt rod then a 6wt rod. The 4wt is more giving at any given drag setting and will absorb the shock of the fishes fight. The more severe the struggle the more a lighter rod helps. I’ve seen newby fishermen (or bass fishermen new to flyfishing) loose lots of fish with a 6wt rod. I give them my 4 wt and they land the fish. So the shock absorption is for both ends of the rod (fish and fisherman’s action.) So you have to set the drag down for a stiffer rod given the same fish and tippet. Few fish are lost just due to a slow steady pull of a fish where the drag setting only is the consideration, but rather to a fish jerking the line and adding to the pull. I guess said in another way a 2 lb weight is less likely to break a tippet then a 2 lb fish since one is a dynamic force that exceeds a 2lb pull. Sorry Mu, You’re wrong, and so is the guy in the shop. Drag has nothing to do with it, the breaking strength of the tippet and how much pressure you can put to the fish as a result of that breaking strength is the question here The size of the rod only matters in regards to the weight of the line when casting and in your desire to keep that rod intact when playing a fish. If you are using 4 lb. tippet on an 8 wt. rod there is no way you can apply as much pressure on the fish than you can with an equivalent length rod in 6 wt. and 8 lb. tippet. The only reason that it would be better for the fish to use a 4 lb. tippet is that the fish will probably break off sooner and recover faster. Any steelhead worth half his salt would destroy a 4 lb. tippet in seconds. If the angler was very skilled he would be able to baby that fish in eventually, but at what price? The fish will be mortally exhausted from a half hour struggle to the beach. Chances of recovery of this fish is poor.

Response:

I think anyone who actually believes that an 8-weight rod can’t put more pressure on a fish than a 6-weight rod has never caught fish big enough to show them the difference. Take the two rods out striper fishing this spring with a ten-pound tippet on each and you’ll be immediately enlightened. I can’t believe this thread has gone on so long. Bob Scott

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To some extent it doesn’t matter, although it depends how good a fisherman you are. The best way to put max pressure on a fish is to point the rod directly at the fish; but then it doesn’t matter what the rod weight is! To put the least pressure on a fish, you hold the rod vertical, at which angle a 15 foot 10 weight only puts about two pound pull on a fish. You can demonstrate this with a spring balance, although this will give a higher reading than expected – remember that the fish can’t exactly dig its heels in. Any angle below 45 degrees begins to put a fish under pressure, and the stiffness of the rod and the efficiency of the reel drag will begin to count. However, if the fish is a long way out, and a deal of line is drowned, then other factors are in play which alter your ability to exert pressure. I have seen a guide stop a bonefish in its tracks using an eight pound tippet simply by pointing the rod directly at the fish. I have seen the same done with a chinook. Mind, it is dull compared to playing them… Andrew Andrew N. Herd Associate Editor, Waterlog Magazine http://www.demon.co.uk/medlarpress/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I have a question for all of you. I was in the local flyshop and was chastized for using a six weight for steelhed. I was told thet I shold be using at least an 8 wt, the reason being that you can put more pressure on the fish. My question is this, if I use a 6wt with 8lb tippet and this other guy uses an 8wt with 4 lb tippet, who puts on more pressure? I said me, becauseI have a stronger tippet that I can really put the coals on with. He said no, he could apply more pressure because of the heavier rod. This make absolutly no sense to me. Casting, flies, wind considerations aside, is the above statment on his part true? Andrew

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pressure on a fish than a 6-weight rod has never caught fish big enough to show them the difference.

is a 20 pound sleelhead big enough? or how about a thirty pound plus chinook? Take the two rods out striper fishing this spring with a ten-pound tippet on each and you’ll be immediately enlightened.

Ten pound tippet is ten pounds breaking strength, with a 6 or an 8 it is still ten pounds. If I put enough pressure on a tippet to break the tippet that is ten pounds, be it with a six or eight that is irrelevant. The big difference is that it is easier to cast the big flies a longer distance. I can’t believe this thread has gone on so long.

That’s an invitation to a flame war Bob Scott

Andrew McFarland

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The way that I look at this is that, like Andrew said, ten puonds is ten pounds. One could land a 1500 pound marlin on a 4 wt (heavy leader, naturally) if he had around 2000 yards of backing. Any fish can be landed on any wieght. Just with one rod, the fish might be exhausted and another rod would make the fight last 15 seconds. A six weight is fine. Bryce

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I think anyone who actually believes that an 8-weight rod can’t put more pressure on a fish than a 6-weight rod has never caught fish big enough to show them the difference. <SNIP Bob Scott

YES! And why the hell one would confuse the issue by forcing the stronger rod to have lighter tippet is beyond me. Apples to apples. 8wt is stiffer than 6wt. 8wt allows the possibility of putting more pressure on a fish than 6wt. It is that simple. -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA. USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html email: replace the "this_address_is_wrong" with "tgades"

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Ten pound tippet is ten pounds breaking strength, with a 6 or an 8 it is still ten pounds. If I put enough pressure on a tippet to break the tippet that is ten pounds, be it with a six or eight that is irrelevant. I can’t believe this thread has gone on so long. That’s an invitation to a flame war Andrew McFarland

Not an invitation to a flame war at all. Here’s the deal: naturally, the tippet strength is the limiting factor of the TOTAL AMOUNT of pressure you can put on the fish, regardless of rod weight rating. But it’s not that simple. The rod is applying pressure to the fish anytime it is flexed against him, whether the fish is moving away or not. The pressure varies with the amount of flex put in the rod, angle the rod is held, etc. This pressure comes from the rod’s desire to maintain its original, straight shape. Since it takes more pressure to bend a similar-length 8-weight rod than a 6-weight rod, to the same arc, the heavier rod exerts more pressure on the fish as it tries to straighten… even when the fish isn’t moving, and regardless of the tippet strength or drag setting. Follow me? You’ve got to try it for yourself. Like I said, take the two sized rods, set the drags the same with a scale, and fight a few big fish. The heavier rod will whip them quicker. The relentless pull of a flexed rod really tires the fish. When the fish runs, the drag pressure dogs him. But when he’s not running away, the pressure of the rod trying to straighten is what is pulling on him. A heavier rod pulls harder. Bob Scott

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think anyone who actually believes that an 8-weight rod can’t put more pressure on a fish than a 6-weight rod has never caught fish big enough to show them the difference. Take the two rods out striper fishing this spring with a ten-pound tippet on each and you’ll be immediately enlightened. I can’t believe this thread has gone on so long. Bob Scott This is sooo true. The fish has to work much harder against an 8 wt rod. –tony

You all want to pass some of that stuff yer smokin’? I’ve caught plenty of fish in the size range to be able to tell the difference – Silvers, steelhead, chums. My six weight Sage can break a fish off on undamaged climax 2x tippet (about 10lb test), if held right on a strong enough fish. My 8 wgt can break heavier tippet, so what. With 2x tippet, it simply cannot pull harder than the six weight, since both are capable of breaking the line. This is explained by an obscure branch of science known as physics. What you all are saying is the equivalent of saying that a pickup can tow more than a bicycle, even though they are both connected to the trailer by 8 lb test. Replace the connection with a log chain, and you’re correct. However, log chain is fairly poor in it’s energy transference to the fly. Tough to tie a clinch knot, as well. In the range of tippets that the fellow is talking about, with the rods he is talking about, the six weight is fine for steelhead. I had ample opportunity to experiment in this area two years ago when I broke my 8 weight on a salmon, and had to finish the trip catching salmon with the six weight. After the trip, came back and was fishing sea run cutts. Hooked a big one, and still had the Alaska strike instinct (rear back hard, pull hard with the line hand). Popped the fly in one of the biggest cutthroats I’ve ever seen, who entertained me and my buddy with three jumps down stream, fly still in his jaw. 3x tippet, good knots, 6 wgt. I know whereof I speak… — Andrew Brunette

Response:

The 6wt rod I am referring to is a Sage 690 sp+ that is a stiff rod, I can put LOTS of pressure on a fish. I have yet to meet a steelie that the rod couldn’t handle, I keep a short line and fight the fish using angles. In other words, I keep the rod in opposite to the direction of movement of the fish, to the side. I find that after watching the other guys up here use their 8wts for steelies they don’t put anywhere near the amount of pressure that I do. they mostly use 6lb tippet, some times going down to 4lb, I never use anything less than 8lb. If that prevents me from catching fish so be it, but if it makes the difference between me catching fish and then over playing them then I will not do that. I have out fished guys using 8wts with 4 lb and even float fishermen. I feel that I can put the coals on just as much with those guys. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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My six weight Sage can break a fish off on undamaged climax 2x tippet (about 10lb test), if held right on a strong enough fish. My 8 wgt can break heavier tippet, so what. With 2x tippet, it simply cannot pull harder than the six weight, since both are capable of breaking the line. This is explained by an obscure branch of science known as physics.

…that you obviously have no grasp of. You didn’t read or comprehend my post. And, by the way, my two-weight can break an undamaged 10lb. tippet, too, if "held right." You are not breaking that tippet with rod pressure. If your six weight can lift ten pounds, I’ll eat my eight and nine weight rods. Like the other guy said, go ahead and put a ten-pound weight on the floor, put some heavy tippet on your miracle six-weight, get out your warranty card, and try to lift it up. I know you won’t try it. An eight-weight will lift more weight (still not ten pounds!) — apply more pressure — than a six-weight. Period. Why do you think people use 12-weights to fight big tarpon? Because they need a 12-weight to cast a lightly-dressed 3/0 fly? Not. Dan Gracia, why don’t you jump in on this one? You have a great way of explaining things. Bob Scott

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If your six weight can lift ten pounds, I’ll eat my eight and nine weight rods. Like the other guy said, go ahead and put a ten-pound weight on the floor, put some heavy tippet on your miracle six-weight, get out your warranty card, and try to lift it up. I know you won’t try it. An eight-weight will lift more weight (still not ten pounds!) — apply more pressure — than a six-weight. Period. Why do you think people use 12-weights to fight big tarpon? Because they need a 12-weight to cast a lightly-dressed 3/0 fly? Not.

I think you have all forgotten the original "conondrum" , whether a 6 wt with 8 lb test can apply an equal amt of pressure as 8wt with 4lb tippet. to compare these two factors we apply logic and search for least common denominator between the two. For our purposes we will settle on the 4lb tippet. While on an equal basis, an 8wt rod will be able to apply more pressure than a 6wt, in this situation, the most amt of pressure the 8wt rod will be able to apply is 4lbs before the leader breaks. Likewise, the 6wt rod with 4lb leader will max out at 4lbs of pressure before the leader breaks.( hopefully we can all agree that a 6wt is capable of breaking 4lb tippet even though it may not be capable of breaking anything higher.) Since the 8wt is limited to 4 lb test, the real question becomes whether or not a 6 wt can apply more than 4lbs of pressure given the chance by using a stronger tippet, say 8lbs. whether it can or not doesn’t matter. the "conondrum" has been answered. Both rods will be able to apply at least 4 lbs of pressure, so in this exact situation, it doesn’t make a difference which setup you use, as both will be able to apply at least the same amt of pressure, so using a 6wt doesn’t put you at any diadvantage compared to the 8wt. Unaccounted factors: 1)No one ever uses their full tippet breaking strength. Applying 4 lbs of pressure to a 4 lb tippet is inviting disaster. 2lbs would be more like it, but we won’t take this into consideration as it will bring up more "conundrums". 2) Whether you can lift a weight with your rod is not a realistic comparison of breaking strength.it doesn’t take into account the speed of the pressure application and water tension which equally apply in real situations.

Response:

I was in the local flyshop and was chastized for using a six weight for steelhed. I was told thet I shold be using at least an 8 wt, the reason being that you can put more pressure on the fish. My question is this, if I use a 6wt with 8lb tippet and this other guy uses an 8wt with 4 lb tippet, who puts on more pressure?

The 6wt with 8lb tippet can put on more pressure. Ligther, more flexable rods protect tippets better. A lighter rod will flex more in the butt but you can still put pressure on the fish. The only reason people say you can’t put pressure on is fear of breaking the rod so size of fish is the question. How big are the steelhead you’re after? If they’re in the 4-10lb range then use the 6wt. If they are in the 15-20lb range, use an 8-9wt. The person using a stiffer, heavier rod with light tippet is putting more risk on the fish. Cheers, Jack

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a question for all of you. I was in the local flyshop and was chastised for using a six weight for steelhed. I was told that I should be using at least an 8 wt, the reason being that you can put more pressure on the fish. My question is this, if I use a 6wt with 8lb tippet and this other guy uses an 8wt with 4 lb tippet, who puts on more pressure? I said me, because have a stronger tippet that I can really put the coals on with. He said no, he could apply more pressure because of the heavier rod. This make absolutely no sense to me. Casting, flies, wind considerations aside, is the above statement on his part true?

Andrew, Another point is this discussion is that anyone who would chastise another as to one’s method of fishing, bothers me. Fred Halford and others includes…. As long as it is legal, reasonably sporting, and respects property rights and the rights of others near you, you ought to be able to fish with what works for you…… With a steady pull, one cannot exert 8 pounds of pressure on a tippet with a 9 foot rod…. So I think the way you apply pressure and way you avoid letting the fish rest between runs and pulls has a lot to do with how quickly one can land a fish… For example a fish hooked in the upper lip can be made to raise its head while fighting a very quickly tired…. as compared to one hooked in the rear lower edge of the mandible. If you have ever accidently hooked a fish in tail, you will know the outter limit of this difference… Keeping the fish upstream of you will also result in a quicker finish….. And in very clear water, that is not too fast, and not too deep, and 8 pound tippet may provide many fewer hook-ups… Lots of side to this issue…. but for someone to say….. only fish the way I advocate…. well, I would chalk that up and move on.. Alan E. Hoover to quote one of my favorite authors: "Fly fishing is such great fun, it really ought to be done in bed" John Voelker, aka Robert Traver

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I have a question for all of you. I was in the local flyshop and was chastized for using a six weight for steelhed. I was told thet I shold be using at least an 8 wt, the reason being that you can put more pressure on the fish. My question is this, if I use a 6wt with 8lb tippet and this other guy uses an 8wt with 4 lb tippet, who puts on more pressure? I said me, becauseI have a stronger tippet that I can really put the coals on with. He said no, he could apply more pressure because of the heavier rod. This make absolutly no sense to me.

The guy is full of unmitigated bull hooie. The tippet is the defining element. If you can break the tippet with the rod, and the tippet is strong enough to be appropriate for the fish, the rod is fine. And 3x tippet, from a reputable manufacturer, is strong enough for the average steelhead. If you were expecting to catch 20 lb fish all day, I might sing a different story, but the 8 to 12 lb fish I run into can be brought to the beach in 5 minutes with 8lb test leader, and that seems to let them swim away safely. I have caught 15 lb steelhead with my six weight, using 3x (=8lb) tippet, and been able to whip the steelhead quickly. I use 8lb leader for gear fishing with a meat stick, with the same, sporting, results. I think the average fisherman does not realize how much pressure can be put on a fish with today’s tippet material. — Andrew Brunette

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How tightly do you set your drag? If you point your rod tip towards the fish and set the drag higher than when fishing with a 4 lb tippet then sure you will definitely apply more pressure. Your drag setting and how you hold the rod while fighting fish will determine the answer to your question. My guess is that you’ve got the drag setting at less than 4 lbs (would you dare jiggle a 1/2 gallon carton of milk from the end of your 6 wt rod?). So the guy at the shop is probably right. Mu Young Lee Ann Arbor, MI o oooo o o o o o o o o – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I have a question for all of you. I was in the local flyshop and was chastized for using a six weight for steelhed. I was told thet I shold be using at least an 8 wt, the reason being that you can put more pressure on the fish. My question is this, if I use a 6wt with 8lb tippet and this other guy uses an 8wt with 4 lb tippet, who puts on more pressure? I said me, becauseI have a stronger tippet that I can really put the coals on with. He said no, he could apply more pressure because of the heavier rod. This make absolutly no sense to me. Casting, flies, wind considerations aside, is the above statment on his part true? Andrew

Response:

Hi All, I have a question for all of you. I was in the local flyshop and was chastised for using a six weight for steelhed. I was told that I should be using at least an 8 wt, the reason being that you can put more pressure on the fish. My question is this, if I use a 6wt with 8lb tippet and this other guy uses an 8wt with 4 lb tippet, who puts on more pressure? I said me, because have a stronger tippet that I can really put the coals on with. He said no, he could apply more pressure because of the heavier rod. This make absolutely no sense to me. Casting, flies, wind considerations aside, is the above statement on his part true? Andrew

Response:

Hi All, I have a question for all of you. I was in the local flyshop and was chastized for using a six weight for steelhed. I was told thet I shold be using at least an 8 wt, the reason being that you can put more pressure on the fish. My question is this, if I use a 6wt with 8lb tippet and this other guy uses an 8wt with 4 lb tippet, who puts on more pressure? I said me, becauseI have a stronger tippet that I can really put the coals on with. He said no, he could apply more pressure because of the heavier rod. This make absolutly no sense to me. Casting, flies, wind considerations aside, is the above statment on his part true? Andrew

Response:

Hi Andrew, Like many answers, this one is "it all depends". Obvoiusly 4 pound test line (presuming it is rated accurately) will break before 8 lb test. But the question is, "how much of that 8lb. test capacity are you really using?" The answer is "not nearly as much as you think your are." If you hook up your 6 wt. to a Chatillon scale and start bending the heck out of it, you will find it very hard to exert more than 5 lbs. of steady pressure (don’t break your rod trying to get that little bit more!). Quick jerks will exceed it but not steady pressure which is what you’re using when you’re fighting fish. An 8 wt. rod is much more capable of exerting that amount of steady pressure, though 8lbs of steady pressure will bend most 8 wt rods well into the butt. If you both used 8 lb. tippet then I’d say the 8wt. would be able to apply more of the tippet’s capacity more consistently than the 6wt. So, depending on how you fight the fish, the 8wt. would certainly be more capable of applying constant pressure at 4 lbs. than the 6 wt. An 8wt will however break 4lb. test pretty consistently so it requires a very good touch. If the comparison had been a 6wt. with 8lb. test vs an 8wt. with 6 lb. test, then I’d say the 8 wt would do the better job because it would be able to constantly use more of the tippets capacity than the 6wt. By changing the rod angle, you can change the amount of pressure on the fish. if you keep your rod tip up and the butt of the rod between 45 and 60 degrees, you get a maximum amount of shock absorption and comparatively little pressure on the fish. However, if you wind or strip in line until your rod angle is more like 30 degrees, anchor the line against the handle or reel, and then pull up and off to the side, you exert easily two to three times as much pressure. You are takin the tip of the rod out of the fight by doing this and using the butt of the rod to supply the lifting power. This is a good technique to use once you’ve got a fish beaten. It can break you off quickly if the fish is too fresh. Try this with a friend sometime. One hold the rod and the other hold the end of the line. Pull with both methods. The one bending the rod will think he is exerting huge amounts of pressure when he is not. As soon as the rod tip drops and then pulls, the difference is obvious. Hope this helps, Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools Mt. Shasta Fly Fishing Schools http://www.thegrid.net/flyfish

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You might want to contact the real experts at a place called G. Loomis. They have the tech. knowledge to give you the facts. try http://www.gloomis.com Regards, Capt. Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I have a question for all of you. I was in the local flyshop and was chastized for using a six weight for steelhed. I was told thet I shold be using at least an 8 wt, the reason being that you can put more pressure on the fish. My question is this, if I use a 6wt with 8lb tippet and this other guy uses an 8wt with 4 lb tippet, who puts on more pressure? I said me, becauseI have a stronger tippet that I can really put the coals on with. He said no, he could apply more pressure because of the heavier rod. This make absolutly no sense to me. Casting, flies, wind considerations aside, is the above statment on his part true? Andrew

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I have a question for all of you. I was in the local flyshop and was chastised for using a six weight for steelhed. I was told that I should be using at least an 8 wt, the reason being that you can put more pressure on the fish. My question is this, if I use a 6wt with 8lb tippet and this other guy uses an 8wt with 4 lb tippet, who puts on more pressure? I said me, because have a stronger tippet that I can really put the coals on with. He said no, he could apply more pressure because of the heavier rod. This make absolutely no sense to me. Casting, flies, wind considerations aside, is the above statement on his part true? Andrew

I agree with you with your specific example, I think you can put more pressure on a fish with a 6 wgt using an 8 lb tippet than you could with an 8 wgt using a 4 lb tippet. However, with a 6 or 8 weight rod both using for example an eight pound tippet, you could put more pressure on a fish with an 8 weight as a rule. Rod lengthn also figures in on this. You can put more pressure on a fish with a longer rod in the same line class. Action also plays into this. A fast rod can provide more pressure, but a softer rod is more forgiving and break offs are less likely. Obviously an angler’s skill is another factor. I think you use what works well for you just as long as the fish you catch (assuming you are releasing them) are landed in a short enough time that the fish will survive releasing. If you follow the reasoning of the guy in the shop, a 10 weight would be better, a 12 better still. Bet he doesn’t fish a 12. Willi

Response:

Author: admin on
Category: Fly Fishing Rods
Tags: Fly Fishing Rods

Fly Fishing Fisherman Wiki » Fly Fishing » Help planning trip to Alaska…

Help planning trip to Alaska…

Question:

Fletch writes:

I’ve got an opportunity to plan a FF trip to Alaska in the fall of = 1997. Any suggestions for place, equipment, flies, guide or not, etc… Fletch.. My advice to others who ask, knowing I have made several of these trips is: Pick *one* species of fish you most want to catch and then time your arrival on a river known to hold these fish in the middle of its run. ( I have seen people spend a week on the wrong river at the wrong time and come up emptY) Alternate is to not care what species of fish and pick a time and a reliable guide and hve the guide able to fly you to a river known to have fish in it at that time. If you plan to camp along the river and have never done this, then who ever takes you is the person you are trusting your life with…. Back country Alaska is sincere country and unforgiving of some errors.. There is fishing without going into the deep wilderness that can be better than your wildest dreams…. but you gotta be on the right rivers at the right times for the run to be there. When I have gone the last ten years, I have been self guiding as the friends I go with, as well as myself, have made about a dozen of these trips….. I would never recommend anyone do this for themselves on their first trip….too much can go wrong. So, I do not have a guide list for you… I knew the dates and fish you are most interested in, I may be able to help… Also the Game and Inland fish people there will send you a big big booklet with all kinds of dates of runs in different rivers in it. Likely any Alaskan tourist agent can help. For near my trips without a big crowd but needing a boat.. are a day’s float down the Kenai from the lake to Jim’s landing… A 13 mile trip and good for large rainbows much of the season and is full of Red Salmon and some King Salmon at the right weeks… Near Willow, there are several walkin from the road rivers full of salmon at the right dates… Near the airport are accessible rivers but crowded …. Willow is far enough out of Anchorage that the crowds are not so great. There are 18 lodges which get $4000/week and I would not hesitate to recommend Bud Hobson’s lodge or Bristol Bay Lodge if you want to go that route. If you fly in, leave an itinerary with someone who truly loves you and will cause you to be found if overdue. If you fly with a reputable service ( there are plenty of good ones) they are bound by law to come to get you and report you absence to Fairbanks if over 24 hours late….Carry a flare gun and then every plane in the air is a potential help…. I have a lllooooonnnnnngggg packing list if you want to Email me for it… but again, don’t go in the bush without a competent guide… Just don’t… Alaska has tons and tons of fish because the manage the habit and the spawning run on each river individually and have the capability and will to change the C&K numbers on a days notice on any river needing it…. Other states in our north west have too many competing interests and this is not done… and so they have few fish…. Well hope some of this helps. Alan E. Hoover Anglers’ Rest Powhatan, Va *the trout teach many, lessons*

Response:

This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey McCoy, I also have the opportunity to go FF in Alaska. Just found = out today! Come on guys help us out. I will be flying in to Anchorage. thanks McCoy wrote in article = Thanks for reading…. I’ve got an opportunity to plan a FF trip to Alaska in the fall of 1997. Any suggestions for place, equipment, flies, guide or not, etc… =20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML 3.2//EN" <HTML <HEAD <META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 = http-equiv=3DContent-Type <META content=3D’"Trident 4.71.0544.0"’ name=3DGENERATOR </HEAD <BODY<FONT face=3DArial size=3D2 <PHey McCoy, I also have the opportunity to go FF in Alaska. Just found = out=20 today!<BR Come on guys help us out. I will be flying in to Anchorage.<BR thanks</P <HTML<BODY<FONT size=3D2<BR Thanks for reading….<BR <BR I’ve got an opportunity to plan a FF trip to Alaska in the fall of = 1997.<BR Any suggestions for place, equipment, flies, guide or not, etc…<BR <BR </FONT</FONT </BODY</HTML

Response:

Thanks for reading…. I’ve got an opportunity to plan a FF trip to Alaska in the fall of 1997. Any suggestions for place, equipment, flies, guide or not, etc… I would like to mix this trip between fishing and site-seeing and have about 5 days to do it. Thanks for any help or advice you can give. Russ

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Author: admin on
Category: Fly Fishing
Tags: Fly Fishing

Fly Fishing Fisherman Wiki » Fly Fishing Tying » central maryland

central maryland

Question:

New Fly Fisherman in Central Maryland looking for someonne to go fishing with. Show me how to cast etc.

Response:

There are several active fly fishing clubs in this area, and even more good fly shops. They are all great sources to meet new flyfishers who would be happy to help get you started. Good luck, and enjoy! — Tom Dougherty A.K.’s Fly Tying Tools http://www.aks-flytools.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – New Fly Fisherman in Central Maryland looking for someonne to go fishing with. Show me how to cast etc.

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Author: admin on
Category: Fly Fishing Tying
Tags: Fly Fishing Tying

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