Question:

Larry I probably watched you fly over with the sling loaded. I was there in 67-68 most of my time was around Chu Chi, Long Benh, and Ben Wha. I left Siagon just two days before TET 1968 to come home. Got home and watched on TV places being blown up in Siagon that I had been at two days before. Jerry (also wondering where the time has gone) Springer

It just slipped by, one day at a time. Bob Reed www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com      (KIS Builders Site) KIS Cruiser in progress…Slow but steady progress…. "Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice, pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!" (M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)    

Response:

As he said lets start a war.:) I did not think that highway looked like the ones I remember in Vietnam in 1967 and 68. Jerry

Jerry:  Did the Vietnamese ever paint centerlines?  I think that highway is either in Mass. or in Wisconsin.  I forget…it’s been too long. See my post below.  I know I didn’t fool you older coots.  I was pulling the legs of the younger bucks. BWB

Response:

Here’s a shot just north of An Loc, north of Siagon in 1971 flying the hwy just inside the Cambodian Border.

Same shot is on your website…. http://www.angelfire.com/nv/rvpilot/Helicopter.html Caption reads: A shot going from Sprinfield Mass over to Albany New York in the summer of 1973. I’m flying in the left seat most of the time while everyone else sleeps although I’m not rated I’m having a blast. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I was working for the company in them thar days, flying up to the border (but not crossing) looking for NVA supplies coming from the north down the Ho Chi Minh trail, through Cambodia then back into South Viet Nam.  We were flying real high here….up in the nose-bleed section.  Actually this was a stupid move to be this high.  We were sitting ducks to any sporting young gook who was trying to make his mark and bring down a "Big Bird."  When we flew this high we always placed our service pistola under our genitalia to stop any spurious bulletos from removing our reproductive organals in one surgical swipe of a 25 grain piece of lead moving at 2000 fps vertically and through your seat. BWB

Response:

As he said lets start a war.:) I did not think that highway looked like the ones I remember in Vietnam in 1967 and 68. Jerry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s a shot just north of An Loc, north of Siagon in 1971 flying the hwy just inside the Cambodian Border. Same shot is on your website…. http://www.angelfire.com/nv/rvpilot/Helicopter.html Caption reads: A shot going from Sprinfield Mass over to Albany New York in the summer of 1973. I’m flying in the left seat most of the time while everyone else sleeps although I’m not rated I’m having a blast. I was working for the company in them thar days, flying up to the border (but not crossing) looking for NVA supplies coming from the north down the Ho Chi Minh trail, through Cambodia then back into South Viet Nam.  We were flying real high here….up in the nose-bleed section.  Actually this was a stupid move to be this high.  We were sitting ducks to any sporting young gook who was trying to make his mark and bring down a "Big Bird."  When we flew this high we always placed our service pistola under our genitalia to stop any spurious bulletos from removing our reproductive organals in one surgical swipe of a 25 grain piece of lead moving at 2000 fps vertically and through your seat. BWB

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Was in Vietnam 67-68,  in the south most of the time, with 2 different Companies. We had 3 chinooks, use for recovery standby. Our job was sling loading back to base shot down aircraft and some maintenance aircraft. As a crewchief we have to do all maintance work on the CH-47 also. Slept many nights on them. When gunship pilots were in Vienam after 2 months, a lot of them though they were cowboys that could not be shot down. A lot of dumb pilot errors. One of our 330th Chinooks, after 1 1/2 years of flight time, had recovered many hundreds of aircraft. Some day I will have to show a picture of the right side of the Ch-47, with all the painted emblems of the recovered aircraft. One time at Vung Tau, we are working on the aft rotors. We are right next to the refueling depot. A huey is refueling, Another huey set beside him to refuel also. Ah,  the 2 hueys well, they connected rotor blades.What a mess. One of my crew was working on the aft rotor, Jumped to the ground, thats a long jump.. What a mess of chopper parts all over. Came back from service and got my Comm helicopter rating and flew 6 different types. Now days, the cost per hour, is to high to fly them any more. So now, build  fix wing aircraft full time. Now 55 years old. Where did the last 34 Larry Fitzgerald

Larry I probably watched you fly over with the sling loaded. I was there in 67-68 most of my time was around Chu Chi, Long Benh, and Ben Wha. I left Siagon just two days before TET 1968 to come home. Got home and watched on TV places being blown up in Siagon that I had been at two days before. Jerry (also wondering where the time has gone) Springer

Response:

Bob, If it was not for the AFCS it would be a bear to fly. We practice with the AFCS in the off position just to keep in touch with the bird. When the back wheels are on the ground the AFCS is only working 3/4 gain. Once that switch opens the AFCS goes to full gain and if you are not ready you will be along for a ride. We practice two wheel taxi too. It is a difficult balance of controls. A good person does it all without the brakes. There is a sweet spot with the nose in the air. That is the spot where the aircraft will stay put. Raise the nose a little higher than that and you go backward, a little lower and you move forward. This technique is used to back-up without hovering. I think one of the most scariest things is to hover or taxi backward.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All valid points but just a little trivia for ya, The CH-47 has a stick position indicator that must be at zero on the ground. Anything other than that will cause it to do weird things. (Snip) As Artie Johnson used to say, "Verrrrrrrry interesting!"  The AFCS in those ships must be incredible. Back in the 1960s, New York Airways operated the tandem rotor BV-107.  I was an excited twelve year-old, onboard one day when we touched down at JFK on the rear wheels, then taxied toward the Pan Am terminal with the front wheel still off the ground and the ship at a decidedly nose-up attitude.  Neato! My dad flew the predecessor of the CH-47, the Piasecki HUP-1 and HUP-2 way back in the day.  He related that they flew crappy in forward flight, as each rotor wanted to be "lead."  It wasn’t until Frankie’s team developed a workable helipilot for them that they got it to fly reasonably well. I landed in a buddies front yard last weekend in an R-44.  He’d told me to come by and do that anytime I was out screwing around. But, I never thought about his damn dogs.  As soon as I landed he came out and so did his two dogs.  Well, as dogs do, they went nuts watching this goofy machine sitting in their poop zone and ran at me.  They also ran at my tail for some reason. It is strange that dogs run for the tail rotor, and I’ve had that experience too and cannot explain it.  Luckily, the t/r of a 206 on high skids is, as you know, higher than most dogs, so they’d have to jump up to get it.  So far, *that* has thankfully not happened yet.  But with my luck…

Response:

All valid points but just a little trivia for ya, The CH-47 has a stick position indicator that must be at zero on the ground. Anything other than that will cause it to do weird things.

(Snip) As Artie Johnson used to say, "Verrrrrrrry interesting!"  The AFCS in those ships must be incredible. Back in the 1960s, New York Airways operated the tandem rotor BV-107.  I was an excited twelve year-old, onboard one day when we touched down at JFK on the rear wheels, then taxied toward the Pan Am terminal with the front wheel still off the ground and the ship at a decidedly nose-up attitude.  Neato!   My dad flew the predecessor of the CH-47, the Piasecki HUP-1 and HUP-2 way back in the day.  He related that they flew crappy in forward flight, as each rotor wanted to be "lead."  It wasn’t until Frankie’s team developed a workable helipilot for them that they got it to fly reasonably well. I landed in a buddies front yard last weekend in an R-44.  He’d told me to come by and do that anytime I was out screwing around. But, I never thought about his damn dogs.  As soon as I landed he came out and so did his two dogs.  Well, as dogs do, they went nuts watching this goofy machine sitting in their poop zone and ran at me.  They also ran at my tail for some reason.

It is strange that dogs run for the tail rotor, and I’ve had that experience too and cannot explain it.  Luckily, the t/r of a 206 on high skids is, as you know, higher than most dogs, so they’d have to jump up to get it.  So far, *that* has thankfully not happened yet.  But with my luck…

Response:

Was in Vietnam 67-68,  in the south most of the time, with 2 different Companies. We had 3 chinooks, use for recovery standby. Our job was sling loading back to base shot down aircraft and some maintenance aircraft. As a crewchief we have to do all maintance work on the CH-47 also. Slept many nights on them. When gunship pilots were in Vienam after 2 months, a lot of them though they were cowboys that could not be shot down. A lot of dumb pilot errors. One of our 330th Chinooks, after 1 1/2 years of flight time, had recovered many hundreds of aircraft. Some day I will have to show a picture of the right side of the Ch-47, with all the painted emblems of the recovered aircraft. One time at Vung Tau, we are working on the aft rotors. We are right next to the refueling depot. A huey is refueling, Another huey set beside him to refuel also. Ah,  the 2 hueys well, they connected rotor blades.What a mess. One of my crew was working on the aft rotor, Jumped to the ground, thats a long jump.. What a mess of chopper parts all over. Came back from service and got my Comm helicopter rating and flew 6 different types. Now days, the cost per hour, is to high to fly them any more. So now, build  fix wing aircraft full time. Now 55 years old. Where did the last 34 Larry Fitzgerald

Response:

The problem with crouching or ducking when approaching a helicopter is that people who are looking down at their sneakers are not looking where they’re going.  To paraphrase Martha Stewart, this is "a bad thing."   People talk about how a rotor can dip low.  And yes, approaching (or departing) any helicopter when the blades are not up to at least idle rpm is dangerous. Do not walk under undriven rotor blades!  Simple as that. Once the ship is idling, there is *usually* no danger to a man in a normal walk.  Although having said that, there are some small helicopters on low skid gear where the rotor is not all that high off the ground to begin with, in which the "idle" speed can be quite low (e.g. Enstrom).  Of the larger machines, only the Sikorsky S-76 poses a real danger (because of the low landing gear and forward tilt of the mast), but even it can be mitigated if the pilots simply pull back far enough on the cyclic to keep the tip path plane out of harm’s way. In all my years (20+) of flying helicopters, I’ve never had a gust of wind cause my idling rotor to do anything hinky.  Never.  Not saying it’ll won’t or couldn’t happen – just hasn’t.  (Start-up and shut-down?  Different story.) When I fly Bells, I keep the cyclic a little bit aft to hold the tip path plane up.  But I’ve seen pilots who are not very diligent about this.  Cyclics tend to fall forward if left unattended. A lot depends on which ship we’re talking about…  But if you’re a passenger who’s approaching a LongRanger on high-skids.  Can you depend on the pilot to make sure he keeps the tip path plane up and out of your way?  Sadly, no.  You better crouch a little just to be on the safe side.  Even I do, most of the time.  But please, "crouching" does not mean staring at the ground in a low-crawl.  Keep your head up so you can see, okay?  No baseball caps, and no fishing poles held over your shoulder. And no walking around the back of the ship.  That kind of thing makes our hearts stop…and could easily make yours stop too – permanently. "If you don’t know where you’re going,  Any road will take you there."                                          George Harrison

Response:

Slick = UH-1C or D model configured to haul bullits in and bodies out.  The bullets were "preventive medicine" called "dustoff"  now. LOH Light observation helicopter.  Forerunner of the 500 series helo’s. Worked in Hunter Killer teams usually, the loach would draw fire and the gunships would finish the fire.  One neat thing to note,  If a minigun was fixed on a hardpoint you had to have foreward momentum in order to fire, else the recoil would play havoc with the helicopter. BTW the LOH has evolved and is still in the inventory as the AH-6 and MH-6 of 160th SOAR fame. Instead of one minigun they now have two and FFAR boot. Still aimed the same way tho…….high tech grease pencil. and I was born in 71, am i yung enough fer ya ? all the best Sean "still dumpin shell casings out of the ruck and picken HE shrapnel outta the kevlar" Trost

Response:

    First Squadron, Ninth Cav         "Head Hunters"  First Cavalry Division (Airmoble)          1968 – 1969 I flew as a LOH crewchief for about 9 months. Hueys the rest of the year. Shot down twice. Crashed twice due to stupid pilot stunts. Yeah, the first time I was shot at, it was kind of "exhilerating".  The next 10 months weren’t so much fun. My "official" body count was 83, but I think 20 or 25 would be closer to reality.  It’s a Viet Nam thing. You wouldn’t understand… SP5 Richard Lamb       DFC

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s a shot just north of An Loc, north of Siagon in 1971 flying the hwy just inside the Cambodian Border. I was working for the company in them thar days, flying up to the border (but not crossing) looking for NVA supplies coming from the north down the Ho Chi Minh trail, through Cambodia then back into South Viet Nam.  We were flying real high here….up in the nose-bleed section.  Actually this was a stupid move to be this high.  We were sitting ducks to any sporting young gook who was trying to make his mark and bring down a "Big Bird."  When we flew this high we always placed our service pistola under our genitalia to stop any spurious bulletos from removing our reproductive organals in one surgical swipe of a 25 grain piece of lead moving at 2000 fps vertically and through your seat. BWB

Bill, I seem to remember a Shorts Skyvan poping into our base (Phu Loi 69-70) every once in a while. Along with the usual single engine stuff. Bill Higdon

Response:

Bob, All valid points but just a little trivia for ya, The CH-47 has a stick position indicator that must be at zero on the ground. Anything other than that will cause it to do weird things. For example; A little forward cyclic while on the ground the computers will slowly drive the rotors forward until the back wheels come off the ground and the squat switch opens. Then the forward tilt will be so fast that you will not be able to react to it and the aircraft will flip on its back. A little too much aft on the ground; if the breaks are set it will raise the nose until the aft rotor strikes the ground. If the breaks are not set it will start rolling backward.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The problem with crouching or ducking when approaching a helicopter is that people who are looking down at their sneakers are not looking where they’re going.  To paraphrase Martha Stewart, this is "a bad thing." People talk about how a rotor can dip low.  And yes, approaching (or departing) any helicopter when the blades are not up to at least idle rpm is dangerous. Do not walk under undriven rotor blades!  Simple as that. Once the ship is idling, there is *usually* no danger to a man in a normal walk.  Although having said that, there are some small helicopters on low skid gear where the rotor is not all that high off the ground to begin with, in which the "idle" speed can be quite low (e.g. Enstrom).  Of the larger machines, only the Sikorsky S-76 poses a real danger (because of the low landing gear and forward tilt of the mast), but even it can be mitigated if the pilots simply pull back far enough on the cyclic to keep the tip path plane out of harm’s way. In all my years (20+) of flying helicopters, I’ve never had a gust of wind cause my idling rotor to do anything hinky.  Never.  Not saying it’ll won’t or couldn’t happen – just hasn’t.  (Start-up and shut-down?  Different story.) When I fly Bells, I keep the cyclic a little bit aft to hold the tip path plane up.  But I’ve seen pilots who are not very diligent about this.  Cyclics tend to fall forward if left unattended. A lot depends on which ship we’re talking about…  But if you’re a passenger who’s approaching a LongRanger on high-skids.  Can you depend on the pilot to make sure he keeps the tip path plane up and out of your way?  Sadly, no. You better crouch a little just to be on the safe side.  Even I do, most of the time.  But please, "crouching" does not mean staring at the ground in a low-crawl.  Keep your head up so you can see, okay?  No baseball caps, and no fishing poles held over your shoulder. And no walking around the back of the ship.  That kind of thing makes our hearts stop…and could easily make yours stop too – permanently. "If you don’t know where you’re going,  Any road will take you there."                                          George Harrison

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The rotor of a Huey is some 11 feet up. It can dip to six, and in a gust, lower than that. 1000 hours combat assault time and I still duck. You flew Hueys? Lemme guess…. WO-1 out of Ft. Rucker, then Air Cav in country. Who with? I remember at Fritsche Field being out on the main ramp sometimes when the Cav detachment would come in. I just loved that unique Huey thump-thump-thump in chorus. Everyone transitioned to hover at about 3 feet, then taxied single-file to the Cav ramp. Always reminded me of circus elephants walking head-to-tail behind each other. David Ah, yes, the days of the Air Cav!!!!  I’m sure this dude was a WO-1 out of Rucker….hell, who wasn’t in them thar days?  You spent your time there before you went out and killed gooks in gun ships or flew dust off in slicks. (any of you younger punks know what a slick is/was?  How about a loach? LOH?)

The kids may not but I remember. At Ft. Ord we’d go over to the Navy Post Graduate School (NPG) O Club since the Navy had the good sense in WWII to buy (appropriate?) the Del Monte Hotel and adjoining grounds. In the bar different units would paint their logos on the 3′x3′ ceiling tiles. The one right above my barstool was an OH-6 Loach hovering under a spreading oak. The inscription read, "Army Loaches do it under the trees!" And Pasture Dave…the UH-1 Huey didn’t go thump-thump-thump….it went WOP-WOP-WOP when you dropped collective pitch for the descent.

Spelling how a sound sounds is not the easiest thing in the world to do, but thump-thump-thump sounds a lot more like a Huey than does Wop-Wop-Wop. I’ll split the difference with you… we’ll call it Whump-Whump-Whump. David

Response:

and I was born in 71, am i yung enough fer ya ? all the best Sean "still dumpin shell casings out of the ruck and picken HE shrapnel outta the kevlar" Trost

At-a-boy Sean!  Nice commentary.  I should have mentioned that I also love the smell of High Explosive (HE) in the mornings. Ahhhh for them good ole days when we blew up the jungle just for kicks. BWB

Response:

A lot depends on which ship we’re talking about…  But if you’re a passenger who’s approaching a LongRanger on high-skids.  Can you depend on the pilot to make sure he keeps the tip path plane up and out of your way?  Sadly, no.  You better crouch a little just to be on the safe side.  Even I do, most of the time.  But please, "crouching" does not mean staring at the ground in a low-crawl.  Keep your head up so you can see, okay?  No baseball caps, and no fishing poles held over your shoulder.

Nice post Bob.  I tell all my pax to maintain eye contact with me from the front as they approach the helicopter and stop outside of the rotor tip radius until I wave them in.  Then walk toward me always maintaining eye contact until you are right up to the cockpit.  Same thing upon disembarking.  You can’t maintain eye contact, but simply walk STRAIGHT FORWARD from the cockpit until you clear the rotors and crouch over a bit while you do. And no walking around the back of the ship.  That kind of thing makes our hearts stop…and could easily make yours stop too – permanently.

I landed in a buddies front yard last weekend in an R-44.  He’d told me to come by and do that anytime I was out screwing around. But, I never thought about his damn dogs.  As soon as I landed he came out and so did his two dogs.  Well, as dogs do, they went nuts watching this goofy machine sitting in their poop zone and ran at me.  They also ran at my tail for some reason.  I think they were drawn to the tailrotor spinning and thought it was a toy to play with.  Luckily I was still spooled up to 104% when they did.  I pulled pitch and lifted off.  From a 5 foot hover I motioned with the back of my hand at the dogs and he got the message, then put them in the house so I could land. I worry more about the tail rotor than anything since I can’t see it. Even landing here at the house there are kids on dirt bikes that drive up all the time while I’m winding down.  I’ve decided to put a fence around the pad just to protect them.  And, as you said above.  If you want to stop the heart of any helicopter pilot, just walk around toward the back of the ship.  I got a belt of lightening through my spine just reading your sentence and thinking about it. BWB – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"If you don’t know where you’re going, Any road will take you there."                                         George Harrison

Response:

Here’s a shot just north of An Loc, north of Siagon in 1971 flying the hwy just inside the Cambodian Border. I was working for the company in them thar days, flying up to the border (but not crossing) looking for NVA supplies coming from the north down the Ho Chi Minh trail, through Cambodia then back into South Viet Nam.  We were flying real high here….up in the nose-bleed section.  Actually this was a stupid move to be this high.  We were sitting ducks to any sporting young gook who was trying to make his mark and bring down a "Big Bird."  When we flew this high we always placed our service pistola under our genitalia to stop any spurious bulletos from removing our reproductive organals in one surgical swipe of a 25 grain piece of lead moving at 2000 fps vertically and through your seat. BWB

Response:

Just like many here have stated. The rotorhead my be way up there but the tip-path-plan can get REALLY low. I fly the CH-47D Chinook. The rotorhead is up there some 25 feet but the tip-path-plan of the front rotor can easily dip to 4 feet or less. The AH-64 and AH-1 is way up there to but it is not uncommon in a radical control movement to take out the gunner in the front seat. When you are around a helicopter with all its moving pieces you should do two thing. Err on the safe side ALWAYS. Second just as important as the first, FOLLOW DIRECTIONS. If it is a helicopter with crewchiefs make sure they see you and you watch them ALWAYS. If it just a pilot, make absolutely sure he sees you before you come under the rotors.

Response:

yea… that’s who we need to get over hear from rec.aviation.rotorcraft. There was a good thread awhile back on this one and an "OSHA"/collegiate based attorney put up an entertaining battle over theoretical law and 2nd grade common sense.  That was a fun one!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Chris Woodhouse wrote … I have a question for you.  Why does everyone on tv bend over when they walk up to a helicopter with the rotors spinning?  I mean the rotors are way over their head so why duck? May not need to duck, but the rotors aren’t all that much higher. Back in September a Latin American pop star exited a copter & waved to his waiting fans — promptly losing several fingers to the rotors. Google for details.

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You flew Hueys? Lemme guess…. WO-1 out of Ft. Rucker, then Air Cav in country. Who with? I remember at Fritsche Field being out on the main ramp sometimes when the Cav detachment would come in. I just loved that unique Huey thump-thump-thump in chorus. Everyone transitioned to hover at about 3 feet, then taxied single-file to the Cav ramp. Always reminded me of circus elephants walking head-to-tail behind each other. David

Ah, yes, the days of the Air Cav!!!!  I’m sure this dude was a WO-1 out of Rucker….hell, who wasn’t in them thar days?  You spent your time there before you went out and killed gooks in gun ships or flew dust off in slicks. (any of you younger punks know what a slick is/was?  How about a loach? LOH?) And Pasture Dave…the UH-1 Huey didn’t go thump-thump-thump….it went WOP-WOP-WOP when you dropped collective pitch for the descent. I loved the Hueys.  Hell, I’ve got about 2000 hours logged just sleeping on the cot in the back. You speak about the transition from ETL (effective translational lift) into a hover.  What a roar that was in a UH-1.  The whole thing shook like the world was coming to an end.  Those days were a ball…taking enemy fire as you let down between the trees (chopping branches off) as your gunner was dusting the gooks with 50 cal rounds….the smell of napalm and death everywhere…it was exhilerating.   I was in Fire-3 (a HU-1H) one day when we took three bullets through the tail cone and the drive shaft to the tail rotor was severed.  It was a ball, we flew back to base at Pleiku at treetop level and about 120 knots then did a run on landing at about 60 knots into a rice paddy in water about 6 feet deep.  We didn’t give a shit.  We were half drunk and it was government equipment anyway…trashed the fucking  Huey.  That night back in my hooch we drank distilled pineapple juice that was about 100 proof and told lies about the day. I remember some guys had smuggled some whores in from the Qui Nhon who were real pretty and hid them in my buddies hooch next to mine.  They were giggling and laughing and drunk too.  We had some God damn fucking Major in there for inspections, but the other guys got him drunk early on and dished one of the whores to him to make him look the other way. One of my buddies (Rich Gilmore, call sign Gillous) took a few hard hits to his main rotor system in a loach and had to dump it in a hot zone.  I guess the gooks were everywhere.  Gillous called in the air boss for a naplm run and a couple F-4 Phantoms were handy.  They napalmed the whole area for about 15 minutes until he could use that 100 mph aluminum tape on his fucked up rotorblade to put the skin back together enough to fly it.  He spooled it up, pulled pitch and blew out of the hot LZ shaking like a God damn volcano or an earthquake at full roar.  The tape held half way back to Kontum but over Dak To she let go and he had to land agian for more field repair with 100 mph tape.  He took on fire the instant they got below treeline from some unfriendlies… it got worse when they landed, so…what do you do? What any red blooded WO-1 would do… more air support by the Air Farce to burn down the jungle and any unsuspecting shooting gook. Once the gooks were creamated and he’d rotor-braked the thing to a stop he jumped on a half cut down tree to grab the blade with the torn skin…three wraps of tape around it and he was back in spooling up the turbine before Charlie woke up and started firing again. Like the Air Cav that he was, he was off once again, roaring south to our base just north of Kontum…and he made it because he was drinking "hot" pinapple juice with us that night and telling us how brave he was. And to the guy who asked the quesiton about ducking as you walk up to the cockpit.  Jesus, you better duck.  A gust or a pilot simply scratching his balls might hit the cyclic (Stick to you fixed wing assholes), deflect it full left, right or forward and the rotor tips might even hit the damn ground.  The smart guy not only ducks when getting close to one of these contraptions, he crawls on the ground to mount one…especially in combat because the pilot might be drunk as hell to begin with. BWB

Response:

Chris Woodhouse wrote … I have a question for you.  Why does everyone on tv bend over when they walk up to a helicopter with the rotors spinning?  I mean the rotors are way over their head so why duck?

May not need to duck, but the rotors aren’t all that much higher. Back in September a Latin American pop star exited a copter & waved to his waiting fans — promptly losing several fingers to the rotors. Google for details.

Response:

The rotor of a Huey is some 11 feet up. It can dip to six, and in a gust, lower than that. 1000 hours combat assault time and I still duck.

You flew Hueys? Lemme guess…. WO-1 out of Ft. Rucker, then Air Cav in country. Who with? I remember at Fritsche Field being out on the main ramp sometimes when the Cav detachment would come in. I just loved that unique Huey thump-thump-thump in chorus. Everyone transitioned to hover at about 3 feet, then taxied single-file to the Cav ramp. Always reminded me of circus elephants walking head-to-tail behind each other. David

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 [Image]

I have a question for you.  Why does everyone on tv bend over when they walk up to a helicopter with the rotors spinning?  I mean the rotors are way over their head so why duck? — Chris

Response:

I have a question for you.  Why does everyone on tv bend over when they walk up to a helicopter with the rotors spinning?  I mean the rotors are way over their head so why duck?

Speak for yourself, Shorty!  :-) Seriously, I think it is both a natural reaction, and a wise one.  When I was in the Army, we constantly lost soldiers to main rotor strikes.  Not as common as problems with people running into the rear rotor, but at least once a year.  If the ground is uneven, or something strange causes the blades to flex, they can take the head off of a six foot individual.  A Blackhawk is a big bird, but even though the mast is way up over head, that doesn’t mean the tips are not closer than 6 feet to the ground where you are walking. Eric

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The rotor of a Huey is some 11 feet up. It can dip to six, and in a gust, lower than that. 1000 hours combat assault time and I still duck. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a question for you.  Why does everyone on tv bend over when they walk up to a helicopter with the rotors spinning?  I mean the rotors are way over their head so why duck? Speak for yourself, Shorty!  :-) Seriously, I think it is both a natural reaction, and a wise one.  When I was in the Army, we constantly lost soldiers to main rotor strikes.  Not as common as problems with people running into the rear rotor, but at least once a year.  If the ground is uneven, or something strange causes the blades to flex, they can take the head off of a six foot individual.  A Blackhawk is a big bird, but even though the mast is way up over head, that doesn’t mean the tips are not closer than 6 feet to the ground where you are walking. Eric

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Question:

Took the 15′6" 11 wt. Daiwa to the park at lunch for the first trials with the Airflo shooting head system.  I had on it a 45′ 12 wt. Airflo Type 7 shooting head with a 5′ leader – all attached to 100′ of Airflo running line and practiced my overhead casting with the big stick.  On the fourth cast, I pulled out the backing knot between the stripper and the reel.   That’s 150 freaking feet!! Now if I can only get over my Whirlpool paranoia (losing flies on the rocks on the backcast.) The Airflo shooting head system is super slick, never noticed the loops going through the guides.  I’m in love . . . Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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[shoot].   That’s 150 freaking feet!!

Man that’s gonna take awhile to get back on the spool Now if I can only get over my Whirlpool paranoia (losing flies on the rocks on the backcast.)

You have rocks in a laundry that is big enough for a 150ft cast? Everything *is* bigger up there The Airflo shooting head system is super slick, never noticed the loops going through the guides.  I’m in love . . .

Noted. (The airflo bit At least when you lose the whole fly you usually realise pretty quick,   losing the damn point is a much more subtle affair in the implementation and detection … Steve

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[shoot].   That’s 150 freaking feet!! Man that’s gonna take awhile to get back on the spool

Marquis Salmon No.3 – not long Now if I can only get over my Whirlpool paranoia (losing flies on the rocks on the backcast.) You have rocks in a laundry that is big enough for a 150ft cast? Everything *is* bigger up there

Here’s a view of my washing machine. http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/whirlpool/spey_casting_the_line_layou… The Airflo shooting head system is super slick, never noticed the loops going through the guides.  I’m in love . . . Noted. (The airflo bit At least when you lose the whole fly you usually realise pretty quick,   losing the damn point is a much more subtle affair in the implementation and detection … Steve

Not with the big heads – there’s so much momentum it’s easy to snap it off and fish sans fly without noticing. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Here’s a view of my washing machine.

That the cable car line overhead? Joe F.

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Here’s a view of my washing machine. That the cable car line overhead? Joe F.

And how long will it take him to tangle his line in that ?  That’ll piss em off Scott

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Here’s a view of my washing machine. That the cable car line overhead? Joe F.

Yup, it used_to_be out of reach. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Took the 15′6" 11 wt. Daiwa to the park at lunch for the first trials with the Airflo shooting head system.  I had on it a 45′ 12 wt. Airflo Type 7 shooting head with a 5′ leader – all attached to 100′ of Airflo running line and practiced my overhead casting with the big stick.  On the fourth cast, I pulled out the backing knot between the stripper and the reel. That’s 150 freaking feet!!

In the U.S that’s only 100′

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Here’s a view of my washing machine. http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/whirlpool/spey_casting_the_line_layou…

S’a beautiful looking spot. Not with the big heads – there’s so much momentum it’s easy to snap it off and fish sans fly without noticing.

Yeah, thinking about it that sounds reasonable.  My only experience has been with lightweight (for heads) #8 #9 and the whole thing can "get out of shape" a lot easier than the conventional #4, & 6 WF setups I use.   I wonder how many Whirlpools there are world wide … I can think of 2 here in Aus. that I’ve fished … one in the salt and one in fresh.  I have pics of both somewhere, but your washing machine winds hands down for scenerics. Steve

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Took the 15′6" 11 wt. Daiwa to the park at lunch for the first trials with the Airflo shooting head system.  I had on it a 45′ 12 wt. Airflo Type 7 shooting head with a 5′ leader – all attached to 100′ of Airflo running line and practiced my overhead casting with the big stick.  On the fourth cast, I pulled out the backing knot between the stripper and the reel. That’s 150 freaking feet!! In the U.S that’s only 100′

My turn – BITE ME! Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Took the 15′6" 11 wt. Daiwa to the park at lunch for the first trials with the Airflo shooting head system.  I had on it a 45′ 12 wt. Airflo Type 7 shooting head with a 5′ leader – all attached to 100′ of Airflo running line and practiced my overhead casting with the big stick.  On the fourth cast, I pulled out the backing knot between the stripper and the reel. That’s 150 freaking feet!!

So how do you hook up with 150 freaking feet of line out? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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… That’s 150 freaking feet!! So how do you hook up with 150 freaking feet of line out?

Accidentally. — Ken Fortenberry

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Now if I can only get over my Whirlpool paranoia (losing flies on the rocks on the backcast.)

Have you considered trying a cut 850 grain Scientific Anglers Deepwater Express shooting head? I use a soft 8 wt rod in the surf and my preferred setup is about 18 feet of LC-13 connected to a running line.  I like having a short shooting head because sometimes the fish are in really close or they follow the fly all the way close to shore.  Whether I land the fish or not, I have a minimal amount of work to do in order to get the head out past the guides again in preparation for another cast since the head is so short.  Also, there are always dogs, kids, frisbees and who knows what else sneaking up behind me so the short head reduces the chances of incidental non-piscine hookups. A short head is also easier to lift back up to the surface when getting ready for the next cast.  You lose some distance and the transition from back cast to forward cast feels more abrupt (the latter can be minimized by altering your casting motion) but I really like it for the kind of fishing I do especially given that my St. Croix is a slow action rod. You could chop that SA DWE 850 grain head down to 15 feet and still have a 425 grain head. But Airflo has the fastest sinking heads.  That DWE 850 is rated at 9-10 IPS.  A 300 grain Airflo will (purportedly) sink just as fast. Mu

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Have you considered trying a cut 850 grain Scientific Anglers Deepwater Express shooting head? I use a soft 8 wt rod in the surf and my preferred setup is about 18 feet of LC-13 connected to a running line.  I like having a short shooting head because sometimes the fish are in really close or they follow the fly all the way close to shore.  Whether I land the fish or not, I have a minimal amount of work to do in order to get the head out past the guides again in preparation for another cast since the head is so short.  Also, there are always dogs, kids, frisbees and who knows what else sneaking up behind me so the short head reduces the chances of incidental non-piscine hookups. A short head is also easier to lift back up to the surface when getting ready for the next cast.  You lose some distance and the transition from back cast to forward cast feels more abrupt (the latter can be minimized by altering your casting motion) but I really like it for the kind of fishing I do especially given that my St. Croix is a slow action rod. You could chop that SA DWE 850 grain head down to 15 feet and still have a 425 grain head. But Airflo has the fastest sinking heads.  That DWE 850 is rated at 9-10 IPS.  A 300 grain Airflo will (purportedly) sink just as fast. Mu

I’ve done that before with a DWE 850 but I *really* didn’t like how they casted.  The Airflo Type 7 on a 15′6" rod isn’t a handful at all and can be brought in quite close.  The rod action allows some loading in tight in the event you just want to fish in front of you and the loops are so smooth, they’ll run through the guides with no problem. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Took the 15′6" 11 wt. Daiwa to the park at lunch for the first trials with the Airflo shooting head system.  I had on it a 45′ 12 wt. Airflo Type 7 shooting head with a 5′ leader – all attached to 100′ of Airflo running line and practiced my overhead casting with the big stick.  On the fourth cast, I pulled out the backing knot between the stripper and the reel. That’s 150 freaking feet!! So how do you hook up with 150 freaking feet of line out?

Ken’s right – 15 lbs. of steelie  or 30 lbs. of chinook doesn’t require any finesse – the fish hook themselves and with 15′ 6" of rod in the air, I can move a lot of line.  The furthest out I’ve hooked a fish so far has been about 80′-85′ on a streamer (below Lower Dam on the Rapid – about a 2 1/2 lb. salmon.).  There’s so much current pressure on the line that soon as you feel weight and tighten up, the pressure on the line sets the hook. Avoiding breaking off the fish, is the second biggest challenge.  It is real easy to overpower your tippet with that rod in those conditions.  Hooking up isn’t a big deal, getting ‘em to strike when things are slow – that’s the real challenge. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/whirlpool/spey_casting_the_line_layou… S’a beautiful looking spot.

Here is Mapquest’s rendition of the Whirlpool http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2DA6278 Looks like it’s about 900 across.  And that ain’t slack water in there. Look at the direction of the river (flows northwards).  I slams into the whirlpool in a northwesterly direction and then pours out northeasterly. Or maybe this is just the "shadow" Whirlpool Mu

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loops are so smooth, they’ll run through the guides with no problem.

Are those the seamless polymer loops?  My Rio intermediate shooting head has a loop with some sort of sleeve on it and it does not traverse the guides very well. Mu

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loops are so smooth, they’ll run through the guides with no problem. Are those the seamless polymer loops?  My Rio intermediate shooting head has a loop with some sort of sleeve on it and it does not traverse the guides very well. Mu

Yup, the Head loop is conventional looking but small.  The running line loop is the fused polymer type, very large so it can be slipped over a spool – very well thought out. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Mr Charles,   We are sorry to inform you sir that we will have to cry FOUL on the posting of that picture. To think that someone would have the cajones to post something like that only in the interest of teasing others. A pox upon you sir. Is there room in that whirlpool for 2? –SteveC– I’ll show if there are no A-6 drivers around.

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–SteveC– I’ll show if there are no A-6 drivers around.

Then keep Epps out of the stew. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply.

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Mr Charles,  We are sorry to inform you sir that we will have to cry FOUL on the posting of that picture. To think that someone would have the cajones to post something like that only in the interest of teasing others. A pox upon you sir.

nah, nah – I got my pox shots already – a pox back at ya Is there room in that whirlpool for 2?

Well sure, we can always fit in one more.  Just leave the pox at home. –SteveC– I’ll show if there are no A-6 drivers around.

Ah, I see you’ve met one or two already.  <g Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Peter Charles: –SteveC– I’ll show if there are no A-6 drivers around. Ah, I see you’ve met one or two already.  <g Peter

Dave, 4.2L A6

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter Charles: –SteveC– I’ll show if there are no A-6 drivers around. Ah, I see you’ve met one or two already.  <g Peter Dave, 4.2L A6

Perish the thought! This only applies to those guys that drive (and there’s only a few left) those gray Grumman A-6’s. I’ve noticed they aren’t real good around gondola wires. –SteveC– Who lives far too close to 2 naval air stations

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Dave, 4.2L A6 Perish the thought! This only applies to those guys that drive (and there’s only a few left) those gray Grumman A-6’s. I’ve noticed they aren’t real good around gondola wires. –SteveC– Who lives far too close to 2 naval air stations

Ahh, that was a just little too obscure for us.  We’re slipping obviously. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mr Charles,  We are sorry to inform you sir that we will have to cry FOUL on the posting of that picture. To think that someone would have the cajones to post something like that only in the interest of teasing others. A pox upon you sir. nah, nah – I got my pox shots already – a pox back at ya Is there room in that whirlpool for 2? Well sure, we can always fit in one more.  Just leave the pox at home. –SteveC– I’ll show if there are no A-6 drivers around. Ah, I see you’ve met one or two already.  <g Peter

Unfortunately yes, I have. You can always spot ‘em from a mile off too, they love those big watches! –SteveC– I thought the Avenger was a comic book hero? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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–SteveC– I’ll show if there are no A-6 drivers around. Then keep Epps out of the stew.

Frank got it though – who ever said military intelligence is an oxymoron. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Question:

What are your best colors to make deerhair poppers and why? What size hook do you find the best? Have a great day, go fly fishing! Tight lines Craig Moore The English Fly Fishing Shop www.flyfishing-flies.com < < < < < < <

  < < < < < <

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Both questions depend on what type of terrestrial bait you are imitating with the deer hair popper….   Early in the year there are a lot of green grasshoppers around and later in the year most grasshoppers you see out are darker colors.  Check your local areas to find out whats local that may be imitated by the poppers and go from there.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What are your best colors to make deerhair poppers and why? What size hook do you find the best? Have a great day, go fly fishing! Tight lines Craig Moore The English Fly Fishing Shop www.flyfishing-flies.com < < < < < < <   < < < < < <

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I am new to fly fishing and just learning to tie I took up fly fishing just to learn to make a 7 year locust.  (Zakadia?) Does anyone know of a pattern? — Highlander

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I think you guys might have stumbled into the wrong newsgroup. Bass fisherman don’t normally tie lures. You might want to try alt.fly-tying or something else. — Jerry Barton Be nice to your kids, they get to pick your nursing home. http://members.home.net/jbarton248/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What are your best colors to make deerhair poppers and why? What size hook do you find the best? Have a great day, go fly fishing! Tight lines Craig Moore The English Fly Fishing Shop www.flyfishing-flies.com < < < < < < <   < < < < < <

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Take a look around this search (the spelling is "cicada"), and see if you can find anything. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=fly+tying+cicada+pattern Jamie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am new to fly fishing and just learning to tie I took up fly fishing just to learn to make a 7 year locust.  (Zakadia?) Does anyone know of a pattern?

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Not.  In the past  I have  used fly’s on a spinning bubble I use anything for bass I am a all around fisherman and fish for pure pleasure In the past I was die hard bass man I use purple worms, Rapalas, and jitter bugs, and now use any weapon in my arsenal including a fly rod. I probably dont catch as many fish as I could But there is something about that water exploding with top water I love. Largest fish to date in southern Indiana stripper pits 7.5 Lb largemouth with my sons in the boat banging their toy trucks on the bottom in a clear lake (15 foot deep) around noon. So much for the rules I tried for years to get my wife interested and couldn’t Two years ago I finally got her out and on the second cast she caught a 6.5 pound bass Did I create a monster If I could only get her to put on her own crickets for gills I have found the postings on changing the hooks interesting. I started checking the sharpness several years ago and increased my catch by double Years ago I was fishing a pit off of a hill. I could see this bass following my worm. He followed it to shore where the only thing I could do was drop it pause and twitch. That sucker grabbed it ran dived come out of the water with a tail walk and spit it out. Dull hooks  Id give a hundred dollars for the vidio — Highlander

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What brought this line up was years ago I got in the middle of a seven year locust hatch. We were using them for bait As fast as they hit the water they was gone Bass gill crappie. I had to quit fishing because my hands were bleeding from taking fish off the hook. Could stand some more of that. One time occurrence — Highlander

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The two most popular patterns are a basically all black hairbug and then a frog pattern (green on top and yellow on bottom) then put rubber legs out the sides and neck hackles out the back. Not too big and not too small. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What are your best colors to make deerhair poppers and why? What size hook do you find the best? Have a great day, go fly fishing! Tight lines Craig Moore The English Fly Fishing Shop www.flyfishing-flies.com < < < < < < <   < < < < < <

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Question:

Yeah right… somebody’s in my way, so kill him. Land of the free, hey?

Well to be serious for a moment, I do not carry a handgun. I do, however, carry a size 6 weighted wooly bugger and I would feel no remorse whatsoever if I ripped some GDA’s nose off with it. I have not done this to date, but not for lack of trying. You all Europeans can become one with universe, hum mantras and tsk, tsk at the uncivilized North Americans if you wish, but <assume John Wayne accent sometimes a man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do. — Ken Fortenberry

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 Hollow points tend not to pass through and kill an innocent bystander. Especially if you are using subsonic rounds. —  Don Thompson  Zoomie(BushBug)  ACA#3460  TLCB#335  Any Time, Any Place  Pull the chocks, lets get this kite in the air.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I try to hold my temper and sense of proportion in check. But necessary or overkill?

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You have no idea how impressive a size 6/0 pikestreamer can be when adequately stripped.. Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm <ad infinitum Herman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah right… somebody’s in my way, so kill him. Land of the free, hey? Well to be serious for a moment, I do not carry a handgun. I do, however, carry a size 6 weighted wooly bugger and I would feel no remorse whatsoever if I ripped some GDA’s nose off with it. I have not done this to date, but not for lack of trying. You all Europeans can become one with universe, hum mantras and tsk, tsk at the uncivilized North Americans if you wish, but <assume John Wayne accent sometimes a man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do. — Ken Fortenberry

– Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

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It was not malicious.  I must admit that I prefer to know the correct names of the people with whom I am communicating, and see no particularly good reasons for aliases here normally .  But it is like many things, purely a matter of personal choice. I never for a moment thought it was malicious.  As for the name..I’ve been using it for about 7 years now and use it for everything online. Just what I started with  so it’s a habit.

Using an alias online is an excellent idea that I recommend to everyone. I’m speaking from a truly harrowing personal experience that I’ve related in this newsgroup. I don’t mind most people knowing my real name, which is Stephen Barnard, but I don’t want it continually plastered all over Usenet. So I compromise. I use an alias, but I reveal my name occasionally so at least the regulars know whom they’re talking to. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Mike Connor  AKA Upstream Spider

How do we know that your name is really Mike Connor? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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snip their own sense of etiquette. Bad temper, and bad manners can end up in a feedback loop that only makes things worse. And it seems more likely the more of us there are sharing the water. I try to hold my temper and sense of proportion in check. But or overkill?

My math isn’t very good but I come up with: more fishermen * same streams = more fishermen per stream (and most of them pissed off) The only variable I see there is the fishermen. They must change in either attitude or numbers. Nothing else will. Please advise where, when & if you plan to thin the standing crop of anglers. Thanks Kiyu

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My math isn’t very good but I come up with: more fishermen * same streams = more fishermen per stream (and most of them pissed off) Kiyu

You’re right, it isn’t.  That should be Fisherman / streams = fishermen per stream Kevin  

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – snip their own sense of etiquette. Bad temper, and bad manners can end up in a feedback loop that only makes things worse. And it seems more likely the more of us there are sharing the water. I try to hold my temper and sense of proportion in check. But or overkill? My math isn’t very good but I come up with: more fishermen * same streams = more fishermen per stream (and most of them pissed off) The only variable I see there is the fishermen. They must change in either attitude or numbers. Nothing else will. Please advise where, when & if you plan to thin the standing crop of anglers.

The situation is actually somewhat more complicated than what you describe.  In nearly fifty years on this planet I have met thousands of divorced persons, male and female.  Surprisingly, and in apparent defiance of immutable natural laws, in each case I have met the aggrieved party; NEVER the asshole.  The same sort of peculiarity marks my contacts with fishermen.  I never meet (in a social setting) the ill bred yuppie prick or the inbred bubba dipshit; only the well mannered and considerate gentlemen.  Anyone who doubts the possibility of something like this occurring need only read these pages for a few weeks.  All any of us asks is that we be allowed unlimited time in our favorite fishing spots unencumbered by the presence of any other human being within 12,000 miles or so.  What could be more reasonable and selfless?  Now, since we are ALL entirely void of the deplorable characteristics displayed by the lummoxen of whom we complain, it stands to reason that fishing assholes, like divorced assholes, are the residents of a parallel universe who somehow manage to cross over at odd intervals just to wreak havoc on our own blameless lives.  And since we have no reason to believe that the laws of nature behave differently in parallel universes it follows that simply shooting the bastards will never solve the problem because there are in all likelihood just as many of them as there are of us and from what I here they breed like rats anyway.  As well attack the tides with wooden lance! Wolfgang Oh WHY can’t everyone just be more like me?!

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snip one brookie but it was loads of fun on that lovely little rod.  Definitely a keeper.

I wouldn’t sell your stock in Sage just yet. I haven’t tossed a line with an RPL+ but from what I have read here they are nice rods and it is good to switch back and forth from time to time to appreciate what each rod can do for your fishing as your fishing & casting style will change over time. On another note and to revisit the GD I just will never get used to dealing with such incredibly inconsiderate, self consumed jerks.

As our streams become more crowded we will encounter and endure more "self consumed jerks" ….. and beginners who get mistaken for them. Sure streamside courtesy needs to be understood by all but I would doubt that hostile displays do much more than make the other angler think the messenger is a jerk.<G Beginners are usually (if they attended a class) taught in flocks and their early streamside habits often reflect this. Time & observation usually cures their crowding tendencies. A lot of seemingly inconsiderate behavior by experienced fishermen is because different streams develop their own codes of behavior and this gets carried over from stream to stream. I can almost guarantee that someone who regularly fishes a no-holds-barred, fight-for-your-space stream will seem to be a real jerk on a stream that has plenty of angling space and a different stream culture until he gets in sync with his surroundings. I have been on both ends of this. Most people don’t want to interfere with another’s fishing. If I feel someone has encroached upon what I deem to be my fishing space and I want to make a statement about it I quickly reel in without a word & leave for another spot. It is an obvious gesture, is very clear and often gets an apology (unless the person actually is a jerk in which case he will probably not understand any gesture except the single fingered one – and that could get dangerous for all parites). As well, I have sought out anglers to apologize to who have responded similarly to my own chowderheaded but inadvertent encroachments. Works for me – may not work for you. Kiyu

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah right… somebody’s in my way, so kill him. Land of the free, hey? Herman Ah, well, there is something to be said about etiquette. … Within 5 minutes, here he is, right in front of me. So I move downstream. This little game goes on for the next hour.  … Well, nobody owns the stream, we must learn to cope with whomever else shares it with us. Phooey, this is why god invented handguns. — Ken Fortenberry — Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

sharing at all.  One doesn’t share reverie or tranquility.  It is a selfish thing we all need.  Some people need to  get away from even looking or seeing another human being.  Fly fishing is one place where that is possible.  Disturbing a man’s reverie is about the biggest sin anyone can do to another fly fisherman.  Reverie is so precious to some that to disturb it is to replace it with rage, which is reverie’s opposite.   Normally, there are other humans about fishing but it then comes down to a zone of several hundred yards or just a hundred yards but no less than that. It can mean, don’t dog my trail and don’t follow me around. Fly fishing is more a state of mind as anything else.  It doesnot need to be catching anything at all.  It can just be a place not to be shared or seen by others.  It can be just the knowledge that someone walks well around and away who is smart enough not to even say "hello."  One doesn’t go fly fishing to hear ‘hello’ from others, believe it or not.  All this sounds cruel, but ’some individuals’ need a piece of heaven on earth that is undisturbed.  This is a feature in the outdoors that is becoming rarer as each year goes by. As Mel Levin said one time, "Don’t say hello to that guy!  Before you know it, you’ll be exchanging flies, business cards and when you get home you will either get a telephone call or a love letter!  NEVER, say hello astream!" Finally, there is that burning question we all get, or at least the ones that are catching trout.  Suddenly!  From behind comes this rude invasion of privacy.  "What fly are you using?" I always answer, "The one found in "Matching the Hatch!"  Why do you ask? — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

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"Ken Fortenberry" wrote…  … Well, nobody owns the stream, we must learn to cope with whomever else shares it with us. Phooey, this is why god invented handguns.

Ok, I’m relatively new to the sport of fly fishing. I mean, I’ve fished about 100 days in the last year, but almost always by myself on a private pond. So although I try to be a good sport and show etiquette, I can envision that somebody might infringe on someone else out of naivete rather than ill-will. I hope that if I were to–out of a lack of knowledge–infringe on what someone else considered to be their fishing "space" that the other party would be willing correct me politely and only shoot if I did it a second time. I’m assuming as well that we’re talking about infringement by strangers and not necessarily situations where you’re fishing with someone you know, right? –Steve (so call me an idiot, at least I’m trying to learn)

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Last year, I was fishing Mt. Vernon creek, a small popular spot not too far from Madison, WI. My buddy and I were treated to a streamside invective (a litany, really) directed by a fellow fisherman at the injustice of having arrived to find the stream full of other fisherman when he had been fishing that water for 20 years. Didn’t get a lot of sympathy from me, as I’ve been fishing it a good 5 years longer. But I *could* understand the frustration he must have felt as he watched the crowds grow over the years. For ourselves, we had already begun to leave work early in order to beat others to the stream. I suspect this guy has learned the same trick, or begun driving further. I wonder if some of the increased inconsiderate behavior we’ve had to bear over the years resulted from bad tempers caused by other, usually thoughtful people who had experienced boorishness just one too many times, and lost their own sense of etiquette. Bad temper, and bad manners can end up in a feedback loop that only makes things worse. And it seems more likely the more of us there are sharing the water. I try to hold my temper and sense of proportion in check. But or overkill?

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Yeah right… somebody’s in my way, so kill him. Land of the free, hey? Herman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ah, well, there is something to be said about etiquette. … Within 5 minutes, here he is, right in front of me. So I move downstream. This little game goes on for the next hour.  … Well, nobody owns the stream, we must learn to cope with whomever else shares it with us. Phooey, this is why god invented handguns. — Ken Fortenberry

– Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

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Set out this morning in a fine, misty rain eager to fish a new 2 wt. I picked up yesterday afternoon (Orvis, Silver Label 792) to determine if it was a keeper or not.  Suffice is to say, I love the new rod.  I had used a Sage RPL+ in the past and didn’t like it at all…..it was very fast, felt like a darn pool cue.  After 15 minutes or so getting used to casting the full flex action rod it was turning over a size 18 furry black ant beautifully, laying it down on the water as though it had fallen from an overhanging tree limb (actually did manage to snag a tree).  Unfortunately, the weather took a turn for the worse and the light mist turned into a steady rain within the hour.  During that time I managed only one brookie but it was loads of fun on that lovely little rod.  Definitely a keeper. On another note and to revisit the GD Ahole thread…….I had been on the stream for about 30 minutes and was working my way upstream when this jerk comes tromping into the water about 20 yards upstream from me and begins dead drifting some sort of wet fly downstream in my direction all the while chatting with his buddy who was sitting up on the bank, obviously perturbed that I had the nerve to get there before them!  Good thing I didn’t have a gun, I may have just been pissed enough to use it . Anyway, I fished (more like just spent the time false casting the new 2 wt as close to him as I could) a little while longer and since the weather wasn’t great I just tromped and splashed as loudly and clumsily as I could upstream, right past him  and exited about 30 yards past the two interlopers. I just will never get used to dealing with such incredibly inconsiderate, self consumed jerks.  My 4 year old son has the brains and common sense consideration to know better than to do what they did.  When I was leaving I noticed their truck had out of state tags…I guess they figured since they traveled to get there they weren’t going to let anything stop them from wetting a line. Natty

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My 4 year old son has the brains and common sense consideration to know better than to do what they did.

Well that’s probably because your son has a better father than those 2 guys. Don’t get angry with them – feel sorry for them. Regards, Jeff

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Two wrongs don

Question:

"In alphabetical order …. " You might want to check your order. Allan

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In alphabetical order, I think a new law firm should be set up in Montana by three such men that need a change in life and a serious move into happy trout country.  I.E. "HARRISON, FAULKNER & MILLER"  the Legal Maulers of Montana would have a thriving practice and they could fly fish every lunch hour if they so choose.  I would even donate my services in exchange for theirs.  It would certainly be of equal value! Billings Montana is a serious location  including, Helena and Missoula or even Hamilton Montana.  I only wonder how good they would look in a Western Stetson? Of course they may always try Jackson  Hole and compete with Jerry Spence! CSG (chuckle, sneer, grin!) Mr. G. — http://www.gink.com/chat

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"In alphabetical order …. " You might want to check your order. Allan

; ) Mr. G. GOTCHA! — http://www.gink.com/chat

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; ) Mr. G. GOTCHA!

See how often the gnome will dip into the same sorry little bag to cover his lame ass? GOTCHERSELF!!

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See how often the gnome will dip into the same sorry little bag to cover his lame ass? GOTCHERSELF!!

______  Your breeding is showing. Sad. Mr. G. — http://www.gink.com/chat

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Wolfgang writes: ; ) Mr. G. GOTCHA! See how often the gnome will dip into the same sorry little bag to cover his lame ass? GOTCHERSELF!!

Bwwwhahahahahaha.  ROFLEO. So very, very true, Wolf.  The twits of this world will never change.   d;0) Dave L.

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Whooops!  Guess I rose to the bait …. er,  fly.

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"In alphabetical order …. " You might want to check your order.

things ain’t always rational in Bizarro world. Myxtplk

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You ought to be careful here George, somebody who uses the word bastard as often as you do, not to mention all the other choice language you occasionally come out with, really should refrain from comment on breeding. I fear you may know how it occurs, but not what it means. — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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You ought to be careful here George, somebody who uses the word bastard as often as you do, not to mention all the other choice language you occasionally come out with, really should refrain from comment on breeding. I fear you may know how it occurs, but not what it means.

_______ Gee Mike, that term was not used by me in THIS thread, but I see your point and you’re right. I do know, as a matter of fact, what you mean for I may have sired all the bottom dwellers here.  I guess some of us have a talent for such things but look at the fun they’re having!? I will refrain from commenting on what you have aptly pointed out in the future.  What would I do without you Mike?  You’re a great guy who is always looking after me. I am a blessed man, Your pal, George Gehrke Beware!  Do not feed the Bottom Dwellers! — http://www.gink.com

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I suppose I ought to comment on this thread even though I don’t know why. Well, I sure as hell wouldn’t mind practicing with these guys, particularly in Montana.  Although we’d all be working the overnight shift at Ole’s so we could fish all day, so the law degree becomes superfilous anyway. Mark Faulkner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Question:

Hello all, for those of you who expressed interest here is the address of my new website. It has been up for five minutes, and I rather bashed it together yesterday and today, so don’t expect too much at first.  There is not a lot there at the moment, but I will be adding to it almost daily for a while.

Got a problem, Mike. I couldn’t contact your server. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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Never mind. I got it. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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Hi Mike,    I am happy you found a Webb site for your great work.  The picture of that handsome young fellow holding the fly rod on the main page loaded a little slow and was a little dark.  I down loaded it, converted it to a compressed jpg file and tweaked the brightness a little.  It reduced the volume from 200K to 56K.  I think that would probably be better.  An there is one other thing you might think about changing.  As the picture was slowly loading I could read the first line under the picture which said " I hope you enjoy this site, please leave"  :-) Your friend, Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all, for those of you who expressed interest here is the address of my new website. It has been up for five minutes, and I rather bashed it together yesterday and today, so don’t expect too much at first.  There is not a lot there at the moment, but I will be adding to it almost daily for a while. http://www.connor.via.t-online.de/ Hope you enjoy it — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible"

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http://www.connor.via.t-online.de/ Hope you enjoy it

Congrats Mike!  A job well done. bc. — The fruit derived from labor is the sweetest of all pleasures. — Marquis De Vauvenargues

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Thanks Mike! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.connor.via.t-online.de/

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Mike, Thanks for posting your stories, flies, and other things.  It’s valuable information and an enjoyable read.  Now you have control of your site and it looks great.  It came up and quickly for me. Vern – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks Mike! http://www.connor.via.t-online.de/

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Hello all, for those of you who expressed interest here is the address of my new website. It has been up for five minutes, and I rather bashed it together yesterday and today, so don’t expect too much at first.  There is not a lot there at the moment, but I will be adding to it almost daily for a while. http://www.connor.via.t-online.de/ Hope you enjoy it — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible"

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – says… Hello all, for those of you who expressed interest here is the address of my new website. It has been up for five minutes, and I rather bashed it together yesterday and today, so don’t expect too much at first.  There is not a lot there at the moment, but I will be adding to it almost daily for a while. http://www.connor.via.t-online.de/ Hope you enjoy it — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" Hey! That’s pretty good Mike! I was poking in around the Yorkshire Flies area and I liked the work! I have yet to tie a soft hackle and I was curious how you fish these in still waters…

I saw the description of technique on the first page… Care to elicidate? The pond I fish is rather small so no current and some days there is very little if any wind! — Michael Era

Question:

Howdy everyone!  I am in the planning stages of a trip to South-West Alaska.  I have this brochure from Alaska Fish and Game that tells of the fishing conditions on Prince of Wales Island.  From the description I read it sounds like a cross between the Henry’s Fork and New Zealand, ie pristine streams packed with rainbows and grayling.  Then I talked to my friend who was there two years ago and he said Prince of Wales Island is a clear-cut eyesore with only small trout.  What gives?  Can anyone confirm or deny this situation? -John —      Its not that flyfishing is everything, it is just that everything      else in my life is less important.                                                      -Moi

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Howdy everyone!  I am in the planning stages of a trip to South-West Alaska.  I have this brochure from Alaska Fish and Game that tells of the fishing conditions on Prince of Wales Island.  From the description I read it sounds like a cross between the Henry’s Fork and New Zealand, ie pristine streams packed with rainbows and grayling.  Then I talked to my friend who was there two years ago and he said Prince of Wales Island is a clear-cut eyesore with only small trout.  What gives?  Can anyone confirm or deny this situation? -John —     Its not that flyfishing is everything, it is just that everything     else in my life is less important.                                                     -Moi

It depends on where you are.  It is possible to be a quarter mile from a clear-cut area and think you are in a pristine forest.  The only way to get a good look at these ugly scars is from the air.  The lumber industry keeps telling everyone that they can harvest at a renewable sustained yield.  Then they come to Alaska and chop down old growth forests with Uncle Sam underwriting the cost.  The main players are Japanese firms that turn the trees into pulp, I guess they use it for VCR instruction books. BTW if you go to southwest Alaska you’ll be about 1,000 miles from POW Island. R. Wood in Alaska

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Question:

I’m planning fishing Lewiston weekend of May 6. I imagine river will be too high, but how about Lewiston Lake, or maybe even Trinity Lake with a float tube? Any thoughts?

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You will need a float tube to get to where the fish are.  Try fishing right below the dam in the flyfishing only section. I’ve done pretty well down there. MDRPete

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Question:

Will be in Portland, OR in May for approximately one week business trip.  Looking to get early start on flyfishing plans while in area. Anyone care to give a brief rundown on the type(s) of flyfishing opportunities for trout/salmon/steelhead I might expect in May? Thanks in advance. JGG

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Will be in Portland, OR in May for approximately

A good time for trout, nnot so hot for steelhead Anyone care to give a brief rundown on the type(s) of flyfishing opportunities for trout/salmon/steelhead I might expect in May?

Depending on when in May, the Deschutes could be good for trout, in general, too early for much in the way of steelhead.                 Mike in PDX         "If the trout are lost, smash the state."                                 Tom McGuane

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Question:

Can you please expand on the light colored clothing/lyme disease comment.  Does it help you spot ticks and pick them off before they bite?

As a kid in Maryland, I was told ticks prefer darker colors.  I suppose the camaflouge theory kicks in. Thomas Gilg

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Black Flies??? They are attracted to bright/dark colors and anything that has scent. Some people get more bit than others. Taking vitamin B suppose  to help reduce the # of bites. Clothes should be washed with non-scented soap. Besides Deet, you can put baby oil on you skin which drowns the flies (good for suntanning). By July, they are pretty much gone. Oh ya, make sure you socks go over you pants. Put Deek around the shirt near your belt. they love to crawl in!!! I use to work in the Wawa area for 3 summers. The 3rd summer I got bit maybe 4/5 times for working 7 weeks in the bush plating trees compared to 30/40 the first summer. And the bites healed much quicker the 3rd summer (some sort of ammune system). I’ve seen indians walk aorund with no protection and not get bit. We’re talking about 10,000 black files swarming aroung your head while you work. I use to spray Deet on my hard hat and it would kill 1,000 flies a day. When people complain about a few black flies, I say it is nothing…

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| |  DW 3.  Use insect repellant.  DEET is still the best, although questions |  DW about its safety for long term exposure have been raised.  I suggest a |  DW spray or pump format for two reasons.  First, you can spray clothing |  DW around where they are going to land and crawl and thus keep them off. |  DW Second, you can keep the palms of your hands relatively clean of the |  DW stuff – it will remove the paint from a pencil in a day of use and |  DW likely has a similarly disturbing effect on fine rod finishes, |  DW fly-lines, painted lures etc.  Be sure to spray INSIDE your clothing |  DW in the areas they are likely to try to enter (neck, cuffs, ankles or |  DW whatever) | |  I never use DEET based products because of what it does to lines.  I prefer The notion that DEET weakens mono fishing line has been scientificily disproved in a conclusive experiment by my daughter for a science fair experiment.  She exposed lengths of stren to a number of substances for a period of time in excess of a day and measured the breaking strength.  The substances included gasoline, outboard motor oil, DEET, bourbon, and water.  The only one that weakened the line was water.   Unfortunately the only people who looked at her exhibit were guys wearing camo and there weren’t to many of those.   |  vinegar because it works just as well and doesn’t weaken mono.  As for |  wearing light coloured clothing it is more important for the prevention of |  lyme disease, but the fact that the black flies prefer darker colours |  doesn’t hurt. | | ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 | — | | — Del Cecchi  

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| |  DW 3.  Use insect repellant.  DEET is still the best, although questions |  DW about its safety for long term exposure have been raised.  I suggest a |  DW spray or pump format for two reasons.  First, you can spray clothing |  DW around where they are going to land and crawl and thus keep them off. |  DW Second, you can keep the palms of your hands relatively clean of the |  DW stuff – it will remove the paint from a pencil in a day of use and |  DW likely has a similarly disturbing effect on fine rod finishes, |  DW fly-lines, painted lures etc.  Be sure to spray INSIDE your clothing |  DW in the areas they are likely to try to enter (neck, cuffs, ankles or |  DW whatever) | |  I never use DEET based products because of what it does to lines.  I prefer |  vinegar because it works just as well and doesn’t weaken mono.  As for |  wearing light coloured clothing it is more important for the prevention of |  lyme disease, but the fact that the black flies prefer darker colours |  doesn’t hurt. | Peter, Can you please expand on the light colored clothing/lyme disease comment.  Does it help you spot ticks and pick them off before they bite?                         -Pat.

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 DW 3.  Use insect repellant.  DEET is still the best, although questions  DW about its safety for long term exposure have been raised.  I suggest a  DW spray or pump format for two reasons.  First, you can spray clothing  DW around where they are going to land and crawl and thus keep them off.  DW Second, you can keep the palms of your hands relatively clean of the  DW stuff – it will remove the paint from a pencil in a day of use and  DW likely has a similarly disturbing effect on fine rod finishes,  DW fly-lines, painted lures etc.  Be sure to spray INSIDE your clothing  DW in the areas they are likely to try to enter (neck, cuffs, ankles or  DW whatever)  I never use DEET based products because of what it does to lines.  I prefer  vinegar because it works just as well and doesn’t weaken mono.  As for  wearing light coloured clothing it is more important for the prevention of  lyme disease, but the fact that the black flies prefer darker colours  doesn’t hurt. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 —

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– …  I was wondering if indeed the black – flies are going to be a problem? and if they are, what is the best – way to prepare for them. In my career in field geology I have had many close encounters with black flies and, while not claiming to be a total expert, can offer the following advice. Black flies attack by crawling around on your clothes until finding an entry point, or landing directly on skin then crawling around.  They tend to bite where their exploration is stopped by restrictions such as a belt, top of socks, hat brim etc.   This modus operandi should be kept in mind when designing your defences. 1.  Wear clothing with a minimum of entry points – no loose cuffs, tuck pants into socks, wear a snug T-shirt under your regular bush shirt, no stylishly ripped jeans. 2.  Keep clothing as light a colour as possible – they love dark colours, especially blue denim, and will land preferentially on those wearing darker clothes.  (This one is often not easy on longer trips if laundry facilities are not handy and the bush is dirty.) 3.  Use insect repellant.  DEET is still the best, although questions about its safety for long term exposure have been raised.  I suggest a spray or pump format for two reasons.  First, you can spray clothing around where they are going to land and crawl and thus keep them off. Second, you can keep the palms of your hands relatively clean of the stuff – it will remove the paint from a pencil in a day of use and likely has a similarly disturbing effect on fine rod finishes, fly-lines, painted lures etc.  Be sure to spray INSIDE your clothing in the areas they are likely to try to enter (neck, cuffs, ankles or whatever) 4.  Electronic repellants (ultrasonic etc) DO NOT WORK ON REAL, WILD BLACKFLIES.  If you want to try them out be sure you have DEET for emergency backup when you discover this for yourself. 5.  By July they may have thinned out a bit, but will certainly be out in force in evenings and still days.  Deer flies are more of a nuisance on hot sunny days but they do not care about repellant so don’t waste it on them.  (They are slow enough to catch and crunch by hand.) 6. Above all, remember to have fun.  No matter how bad the flies have been in my experience, when I look back to all the trips it is not the flies my mind conjures up when pulling out memories.  They are a large frustration at the time, but you will forget them (until next time) as long as you don’t get physically ill from an overdose.  This only happens to little kids who don’t put on any repellant at all and have a small body size to absorb the toxins. Have a good trip. (The worst flies I ever met were NOT in the Sault Ste Marie area at all, BTW.) Regards…Dennis Waddington —

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