Question:

_____  This is a great day to begin fly tying with my new NOR-VISE.  I suppose it can be said that fly tying and fly fishing for me goes far beyond being just a hobby.  Its a study in life itself, of temperament, the various sciences that range from hydrology (OH! There he goes!  He just floated right by us!) to entomology, the science of cements for repair waders that will now always leak, to how to pack a fly box using the Dewey Decimal/Alpabetical Filing System without going crazy.  It still seems, no matter what, you always find the fly you want in the last pocket of you 18 Pocket fly fishing vest . . . just before you drop it in the river. Arrrrrrggggggggguuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!! I am one of the those wise old hoots who enjoys his reverie and I suppose it comes from years astream packed with a million memories.  I like good music which to me is anything that wasn’t dictated by the "now generation".  I go way back.  When I say ‘way back’ I mean to the eras of Holiday with her sensual, provocative voice, to Stan Kenton, Dave Brubeck, the Dorsey’s, tunes like Sing, Sing, Sing, Elk’s Parade, Lullaby of Birdland, Cole Porter’s Old Black Magic, others such as Green Eyes, (done especially by Artie Shaw) laced with some of the finest concertos by Wolfgang Amadaus Mozart.  Naturally, fly tying requires a few more essentials but music and fly tying is the dubbing for my mind. I confess also that I am a lover of Port Wines and the Tawny brands suit me fine for I do not like overly sweet wines at all but I don’t like them bitter or any that lay flat on the tongue. It seems I cannot tie without a few bird dogs (my Llewellyn Setters) under the table but it comes not with a price.  I say this because it came to me these sounds of pleasure from under my table one day.  I dropped my hand down to get that familiar lick but it was not too be, so I slide my chair back a bit and look at my dog ‘Shotgun’ who has his chin laying upon my Jungle Cock neck, all slimed and in-between his paws.  His eyes look up to the top of his head as if saying, ‘no, you can’t have it!’ Well today, warm weather has come to my canyon and the sun dresses all the buds on the trees.  My canaries are singing their song of spring over the soft music.   Things are in harmony and my glass if full.   — (C) George Gehrke 2001 http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – _____  This is a great day to begin fly tying with my new NOR-VISE.  I suppose it can be said that fly tying and fly fishing for me goes far beyond being just a hobby.  Its a study in life itself, of temperament, the various sciences that range from hydrology (OH! There he goes!  He just floated right by us!) to entomology, the science of cements for repair waders that will now always leak, to how to pack a fly box using the Dewey Decimal/Alpabetical Filing System without going crazy.  It still seems, no matter what, you always find the fly you want in the last pocket of you 18 Pocket fly fishing vest . . . just before you drop it in the river. Arrrrrrggggggggguuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!! I am one of the those wise old hoots who enjoys his reverie and I suppose it comes from years astream packed with a million memories.  I like good music which to me is anything that wasn’t dictated by the "now generation".  I go way back.  When I say ‘way back’ I mean to the eras of Holiday with her sensual, provocative voice, to Stan Kenton, Dave Brubeck, the Dorsey’s, tunes like Sing, Sing, Sing, Elk’s Parade, Lullaby of Birdland, Cole Porter’s Old Black Magic, others such as Green Eyes, (done especially by Artie Shaw) laced with some of the finest concertos by Wolfgang Amadaus Mozart.  Naturally, fly tying requires a few more essentials but music and fly tying is the dubbing for my mind. I confess also that I am a lover of Port Wines and the Tawny brands suit me fine for I do not like overly sweet wines at all but I don’t like them bitter or any that lay flat on the tongue. It seems I cannot tie without a few bird dogs (my Llewellyn Setters) under the table but it comes not with a price.  I say this because it came to me these sounds of pleasure from under my table one day.  I dropped my hand down to get that familiar lick but it was not too be, so I slide my chair back a bit and look at my dog ‘Shotgun’ who has his chin laying upon my Jungle Cock neck, all slimed and in-between his paws.  His eyes look up to the top of his head as if saying, ‘no, you can’t have it!’ Well today, warm weather has come to my canyon and the sun dresses all the buds on the trees.  My canaries are singing their song of spring over the soft music. Things are in harmony and my glass is full. — (C) George Gehrke 2001 http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

– (C) George Gehrke 2001 http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – _____  This is a great day to begin fly tying with my new NOR-VISE.  I suppose it can be said that fly tying and fly fishing for me goes far beyond being just a hobby.  Its a study in life itself, of temperament, the various sciences that range from hydrology (OH! There he goes!  He just floated right by us!) to entomology, the science of cements for repair waders that will now always leak, to how to pack a fly box using the Dewey Decimal/Alpabetical Filing System without going crazy.  It still seems, no matter what, you always find the fly you want in the last pocket of your 18 Pocket fly fishing vest . . . just before you drop it in the river. Arrrrrrggggggggguuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!! I am one of the those wise old hoots who enjoys his reverie and I suppose it comes from years astream packed with a million memories.  I like good music which to me is anything that wasn’t dictated by the "now generation".  I go way back.  When I say ‘way back’ I mean to the eras of Holiday with her sensual, provocative voice, to Stan Kenton, Dave Brubeck, the Dorsey’s, tunes like Sing, Sing, Sing, Elk’s Parade, Lullaby of Birdland, Cole Porter’s Old Black Magic, others such as Green Eyes, (done especially by Artie Shaw) laced with some of the finest concertos by Wolfgang Amadaus Mozart.  Naturally, fly tying requires a few more essentials but music and fly tying is the dubbing for my mind. I confess also that I am a lover of Port Wines and the Tawny brands suit me fine for I do not like overly sweet wines at all but I don’t like them bitter or any that lay flat on the tongue. It seems I cannot tie without a few bird dogs (my Llewellyn Setters) under the table but it comes not without a price.  I say this because it came to me these sounds of pleasure from under my table one day.  I dropped my hand down to get that familiar lick but it was not too be, so I slide my chair back a bit and look at my dog ‘Shotgun’ who has his chin laying upon my Jungle Cock neck, all slimed and in-between his paws.  His eyes look up to the top of his head as if saying, ‘no, you can’t have it!’ Well today, warm weather has come to my canyon and the sun dresses all the buds on the trees.  My canaries are singing their song of spring over the soft music. Things are in harmony and my glass if full. — (C) George Gehrke 2001 http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

– (C) George Gehrke 2001 http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

Question:

Skittering is a fantastic technique for catching trout, especially when the caddis are active but it is still deadly during mayfly activity. I learned about it in an old book that had a chapter on the 1920’s Bryson City (Hazel Creek) fishing legend, Mark Cathey. He could subtly vibrate his hand and the energy would transfer to rod/line/fly. The end result being the fly "dancing" on the water. I believe it is so effective because the fly becomes alive, it’s not just another piece of inanimate detritus floating by. It is also very effective with a pupae dropper…. because it also becomes alive. If truth be told, I’ve caught way more trout "skitterin" than dead drifting.

One of the hardest situations, for me, is when the fish want just a bit of vibration or a twitch. It is easy to give a fly significant movement but I find it hard to give just that little shift in position that can indicate life to the fish and bring them to the fly. There are many situations, I feel, where this tiniest amount of movement will trigger a strike, while significant movement or drag will put down the fish. The movement, on slow water, is merely a twitch that makes the fly quiver. This quiver is tough to do but it is one of things I try on tough fish. If you get it right, you frequently get the fish.  Do it wrong and the fish is down. Willi

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The very first trout that I caught, was taken on a dragging elk hair caddis…. I’ve mentioned this before, but it’s a good time to repeat.  I have often fished with a partner.  We move up the stream together, taking turns fishing.  It’s a good method for critiquing one anther’s technique, in addition to providing company astream.  Very often, while my partner was fishing, I would simply let my fly hang in the current downstream.  This has, over the years, resulted in hundreds of hookups in what would otherwise have been dead time.  This method worked particularly well with elk hair caddis and pass lakes, but many other patterns have also been successful.  Streamers and wet flies, of course, are obvious choices.

If you analyze this and do it in a more purposeful manner, you’d hook even more. Willi

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The technique is a very active one that thoroughly covers alot of area in a short time. I generally hit each spot with a series of short, dead drift casts. As each cast begins to swing, I raise my rod tip and swing the flies through all likely lies below me with the dry skittering along the top and the wet dragging just under or at the surface. My next coverage will be a cast directly across stream. I immediately raise my rod tip and drag the flies back across the current. My last coverage of an area is a series a upstream casts where I drag the flies back toward me moving downstream at a pretty rapid rate. If no fish were stirred, I move up stream and cover the next section of the stream. Could you clarify this, Willi? Do you first fish the spot thoroughly with dead drifts, and only then try the skittering and dragging?

That’s interesting as there’s a section of the West Branch of the upper Credit that is composed of cascades and pocket water that has never produced much for me on wets.  I’ve never fished it in the manner you described as I’ve always attempted to dead drift all my presentations, dry or wet.  Most of the time, I’ve use heavily dressed dries such as Henryville Specials and only broke out the wets when I’m on the verge of a skunking.  I’ll have to try your more aggressive approach this coming season. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Could you clarify this, Willi? Do you first fish the spot thoroughly with dead drifts, and only then try the skittering and dragging?

I usually start out that way because dead drifting has been so ingrained for me. However, once I bring up a fish using a skittering fly, I tend to use the dead drift only for those fish that rose and didn’t take or missed the fly that was given action. I came across this technique through a fortunate accident. Some years ago, I was fishing some pocket water and wasn’t have much luck. As I remember, I was fishing a sizable nymph and decided to change flies. As I began dragging in the fly, it skimmed along the surface and was taken by a nice fish. I figured the fish wanted a dry and fished one in a traditional no drag manner with no results. Then it dawned on me to add some action. Although I’ll frequently twitch caddis dries, the action I give the flies when fishing this technique is much greater. On many of the casts, there is no drag free part of the drift. The fly is dragged across the current and skipped through small pockets and hopped upstream. Not all insects float in a sedate manner like a Mayfly. Many Caddis hop across the surface laying eggs. Stoneflies will "swim" across the surface leaving a wake. Craneflies are very active on the surface. I sometimes try to imitate these but mainly I try to give the fish a vision of something alive and eatable. I have a sense of when this technique will be effective but I’m not aware of all the variables. It is a very aggressive technique that works in summer on hot sunny days. I believe that the pocket water and rapids where I use this technique, although they are often excellent feeding areas for trout, become even more desirable when water temps start rising. The heavily aerated water makes the fish comfortable enough to feed even during the heat of the day. Good fish will move into these shallow aerated areas at these times. I use it most during the hottest part of the summer and usually in the middle of the day but will use it at other times. I use it when I have a sense that the fish are "sulking" or resting, or reluctant to feed. Willi

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter,    Would you please describe in more detail the rods you use for this type of fishing? Best regards, Reed http://www.overmywaders.com/ Reed Virtually any trout rod can be used to swing wets but the best rods are slow action ones that are 9′ or greater in length.  The slow action and the length provide greater line control and better roll casting.  With wet fly fishing, you try to avoid false casting and throwing fast, tight loops as you do not want to dry out the fly. Long, slow rods tend to cast gently with big, open loops.  They’ll also usually spey cast well.  Late last season, I bought a 10′ 6" East Branch 4 wt. for swing wets and the line control it afforded me was excellent.  BTW, it’s also best to use a double taper line for the same line control reasons.  I also use an old, very slow 10′ 6" Lamiglass 8/9 wt. for swinging wets to salmon and steelhead. HTH

Peter, If at all possible, can you bring a two-handed or spey rod to the PA clave with you? Yesterday, I was involved in a situation where I couldn’t get my line across the river to a mighty large fish stationed against a cliff wall. I finally realized that short of a boat, the only way I could present a fly due to the trees behind me was with a big ole roll cast of some type. Unfortunately, I can’t roll cast a 4wt 70-80 feet. Than it dawned on me that a spey might be the answer. Anyway, I’ll trade ya some devlish bow&arrow techniques for a basic spey/2-hand lesson at the PA clave<g Yesterday, I enjoyed swingin wets to some cooperative ‘bows. Jeff and I probably caught about 20-30 each…. finally, a day astream in the frozen mountains. We’re headed back out this am once he shows up… Walt

Response:

The very first trout that I caught, was taken on a dragging elk hair caddis….

I’ve mentioned this before, but it’s a good time to repeat.  I have often fished with a partner.  We move up the stream together, taking turns fishing.  It’s a good method for critiquing one anther’s technique, in addition to providing company astream.  Very often, while my partner was fishing, I would simply let my fly hang in the current downstream.  This has, over the years, resulted in hundreds of hookups in what would otherwise have been dead time.  This method worked particularly well with elk hair caddis and pass lakes, but many other patterns have also been successful.  Streamers and wet flies, of course, are obvious choices. Wolfgang

Response:

I’ve mentioned this before, but it’s a good time to repeat.  …… Very often, while my partner was fishing, I would simply let my fly hang in the current downstream.  This has, over the years, resulted in hundreds of hookups in what would otherwise have been dead time.  This method worked particularly well with elk hair caddis and pass lakes, but many other patterns have also been successful.  Streamers and wet flies, of course, are obvious

choices. I’ve mentioned this before as well, but I caught a decent little brown trailing a royal wulff downstream while untangling my line at the reel. Felt lucky, but didn’t feel smart. Joe F.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Skittering is a fantastic technique for catching trout, especially when the caddis are active but it is still deadly during mayfly activity. I learned about it in an old book that had a chapter on the 1920’s Bryson City (Hazel Creek) fishing legend, Mark Cathey. He could subtly vibrate his hand and the energy would transfer to rod/line/fly. The end result being the fly "dancing" on the water. I believe it is so effective because the fly becomes alive, it’s not just another piece of inanimate detritus floating by. It is also very effective with a pupae dropper…. because it also becomes alive. If truth be told, I’ve caught way more trout "skitterin" than dead drifting. and Steve… that was a fine trout you caught on boone’s that monday afternoon… a nice wild brown. Steve Z., now known as USCG "icebreaker" Zimmerman, caught some fish nymphing today on the Watauga. I caught a bunch of ice and one trout using a yella wooly buggah. –Walt

The very first trout that I caught, was taken on a dragging elk hair caddis.  If there’s a good breeze blowing downstream, I’ll let a mayfly pattern blow in the breeze above a rising fish. Drives ‘em nuts and I’ve had small bows leap out to take it. About the USCG Zimmerman.  Can he be loaned out for some northern ice breaking? Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could you clarify this, Willi? Do you first fish the spot thoroughly with dead drifts, and only then try the skittering and dragging? I usually start out that way because dead drifting has been so ingrained for me. However, once I bring up a fish using a skittering fly, I tend to use the dead drift only for those fish that rose and didn’t take or missed the fly that was given action. I’m gonna have to try this more often. Skittering a dry fly worked pretty well in North Carolina last spring, and was recommended to me by Walt Winter. It makes me think of all those time I’ve picked up my dry fly for a cast and pulled it away from a fish. —

Skittering is a fantastic technique for catching trout, especially when the caddis are active but it is still deadly during mayfly activity. I learned about it in an old book that had a chapter on the 1920’s Bryson City (Hazel Creek) fishing legend, Mark Cathey. He could subtly vibrate his hand and the energy would transfer to rod/line/fly. The end result being the fly "dancing" on the water. I believe it is so effective because the fly becomes alive, it’s not just another piece of inanimate detritus floating by. It is also very effective with a pupae dropper…. because it also becomes alive. If truth be told, I’ve caught way more trout "skitterin" than dead drifting. and Steve… that was a fine trout you caught on boone’s that monday afternoon… a nice wild brown. Steve Z., now known as USCG "icebreaker" Zimmerman, caught some fish nymphing today on the Watauga. I caught a bunch of ice and one trout using a yella wooly buggah. –Walt

Response:

If at all possible, can you bring a two-handed or spey rod to the PA clave with you? Yesterday, I was involved in a situation where I couldn’t get my line across the river to a mighty large fish stationed against a cliff wall. I finally realized that short of a boat, the only way I could present a fly due to the trees behind me was with a big ole roll cast of some type. Unfortunately, I can’t roll cast a 4wt 70-80 feet. Than it dawned on me that a spey might be the answer. Anyway, I’ll trade ya some devlish bow&arrow techniques for a basic spey/2-hand lesson at the PA clave<g Yesterday, I enjoyed swingin wets to some cooperative ‘bows. Jeff and I probably caught about 20-30 each…. finally, a day astream in the frozen mountains. We’re headed back out this am once he shows up… Walt

Sounds like you had an awesome day – that many fish during the winter takes some doing.  Magic fly" Sure, I can bring my 8/9 Lamiglass with me.  Though only a 10′ 6" rod, it has a classic spey action and will spey cast the distance you need. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Peter,     Thank you. That agrees with my experience. I use a 10′  Chubb 6wt. for much of my wetfly fishing, for all the reasons that you describe. Best regards, Reed http://www.overmywaders.com/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Virtually any trout rod can be used to swing wets but the best rods are slow action ones that are 9′ or greater in length.  The slow action and the length provide greater line control and better roll casting.  With wet fly fishing, you try to avoid false casting and throwing fast, tight loops as you do not want to dry out the fly. Long, slow rods tend to cast gently with big, open loops.  They’ll also usually spey cast well.  Late last season, I bought a 10′ 6" East Branch 4 wt. for swing wets and the line control it afforded me was excellent.  BTW, it’s also best to use a double taper line for the same line control reasons.  I also use an old, very slow 10′ 6" Lamiglass 8/9 wt. for swinging wets to salmon and steelhead. HTH Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Response:

Could you clarify this, Willi? Do you first fish the spot thoroughly with dead drifts, and only then try the skittering and dragging? I usually start out that way because dead drifting has been so ingrained for me. However, once I bring up a fish using a skittering fly, I tend to use the dead drift only for those fish that rose and didn’t take or missed the fly that was given action.

I’m gonna have to try this more often. Skittering a dry fly worked pretty well in North Carolina last spring, and was recommended to me by Walt Winter. It makes me think of all those time I’ve picked up my dry fly for a cast and pulled it away from a fish. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

You’d be downgrading that "calibre" part if you ever see me nymph. When dredging, I need all the help I can get.

Oh, if i live long enough I’m sure I will see it, because I’d like to fish with you at least once. And I’m sure you are exaggerating your difficulties. — Wayne Knight Expert in creating tailing loops and windknots Otherwise Fishless in Kansas

Response:

Peter,     Would you please describe in more detail the rods you use for this type of fishing? Best regards, Reed http://www.overmywaders.com/ It’s quite true that the tippet size isn’t a big deal on the swing as the fish tend to charge the fly.  However, on the dead drift part of the cast, the fish do get a good look at it.  In clear water fishing to "educated" trout, I downsize my tippet.  With the long, slow rods I use, the odds of a break-off are reduced. Peter

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Response:

Peter,    Would you please describe in more detail the rods you use for this type of fishing? Best regards, Reed http://www.overmywaders.com/

Reed Virtually any trout rod can be used to swing wets but the best rods are slow action ones that are 9′ or greater in length.  The slow action and the length provide greater line control and better roll casting.  With wet fly fishing, you try to avoid false casting and throwing fast, tight loops as you do not want to dry out the fly. Long, slow rods tend to cast gently with big, open loops.  They’ll also usually spey cast well.  Late last season, I bought a 10′ 6" East Branch 4 wt. for swing wets and the line control it afforded me was excellent.  BTW, it’s also best to use a double taper line for the same line control reasons.  I also use an old, very slow 10′ 6" Lamiglass 8/9 wt. for swinging wets to salmon and steelhead. HTH Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Willi suggested we get a thread going on wet fly techniques as it’s an under appreciated approach and one that can produce when other methods fail. Wet fly fishing essentially mimics the emerger stage and normally the flies are fished quite shallow.  Many of us resort to emerger nymphs when we see typical emerger riseforms however, wets were traditionally used years ago under the same conditions and there is no reason why they won’t be effective today. Wet flys come in two basic categories, winged wets such as the Lead Wing Coachman and soft hackle wets typified by the Partridge & Orange. Wet flies can be fished in a variety of ways: dead drifted or swung, as a dry with floatant, in the surface film, just under the surface, or deep like a nymph.  The presentation seeks to mimic a number of insect behaviours; emerging insect migration to the surface or shoreline, female egg laying dives, swimming nymphs, drowned spinners, emerger struggling through the surface tension, and the actual emergence of adult from the pupal/nymphal shuck. Considering this range of behaviours, any motion imparted to the fly should be at slow speed in keeping with the behaviour of the insect. The normal down and across swing first presents the fly with a dead drift, followed by an acceleration during the swing to a stop at the end of the swing.  The angle of the the cast with respect to the current should be dependent on current speed.  In a slow moving flat, the cast should be made at about 90 degrees to the current.  In fast water, the angle should be as little as 30 degrees.  By modifying the angle of the presentation, we can keep the speed of the fly within realistic proportions despite fast or slow current conditions.  In very slow current conditions, a downstream mend can be made to pull the fly along and prevent it from sinking to the bottom.  In still water, use a very slow , hesitating retrieve. In typical moderate currents, I favour an upstream cast at about 45 degrees followed by a highstick dead drift, followed in turn by the normal swing and ended with a Leisering lift.  Strikes can occur at any point and can be particularly difficult to detect in the upstream dead drift section.  If you think you are missing strikes, place a very small indicator a few feet above the fly. Good mending contributes to getting the fly down, keeping a straight line to enhance strike detection and prolonging the dead drift portion.  After the initial upstream cast, I make a series of small mends to prevent a belly from forming.  I’m also raising the rod tip to take up the slack line that accumulates as the fly approaches.  As the fly drifts by me, I prolong the dead drift by dropping the rod tip and continuing to mend.  Once the the line is fully extended and the rod tip is low, I allow the fly to swing in the current, continuing to mend ot keep the line straight.  Once I’ve completed the lift at the end of the drift, I make an upstream lob cast to start the next drift. I try to avoid false-casting as I want the fly to remain wet so it will sink immediately.  False casting will dry it out.  I will false cast though if I’m using a wet to simulate a drowned spinner. Normally I use a long, slow four to six weight rod, a double taper floating line for good mending, long 10′ to 14′ leaders, fine tippet 5X and smaller, and no splitshot.  If I want the wet to sink deep, I use fluorocarbon tippet and a series of upstream mends to get it down. Wets can be employed as a searching pattern or fished to specific fish holding target zones.  During the swing phase, if the fly is deep and passing a good "fishy" spot, gently lift the rod tip so that the fly will swing up like and emerging insect.  If there’s a fish holding there, this behaviour will likely provoke a strike. Wets are a gentle, peaceful, traditional way of fishing and I often resort to it whenever I’m just out fishing to relax.  It lacks the activity of streamer retrieves, the concentration of dries and the indicator watching of nymphing.  Most strikes on the swing are felt rather than seen so intense watching isn’t needed as much.  Tradironal wets, IMHO are the most attractive of trout flys and I enjoy tying them more than any other kind.  If you haven’t tried wet flies before, tie up a bunch and get swinging. Peter

Response:

Willi suggested we get a thread going on wet fly techniques as it’s an under appreciated approach and one that can produce when other methods fail. (good info. snipped Peter

Peter, I will be heading up to the trout streams in the next few days and nymphing or wets will be the rule. Typically, on small streams I resist soft hackle flys because they just don’t get down without weight in the short drifts.  I use an AirFlo leader system. In using soft hackle and streamers should I go to a slow sink or hover leader? — Wayne To Fish is Human….To Release Divine!

Response:

<interesting stuff on wet flies snipped Agree entirely with your thoughts on wet fly fishing.  It’s still used extensively for brownies around where I live in Scotland, on both rivers and on lochs. I find wets tied in the spider style satisfying in their simplicity and aesthetic appeal (i.e. I can tie them) and very effective. One of the things I like is that you can fish the same rig  - I usually only use a single fly  or at most two – upstream or down as the situation demands and you can also cast to rising fish as though you were fishing dries. traprain

Response:

Peter, I will be heading up to the trout streams in the next few days and nymphing or wets will be the rule. Typically, on small streams I resist soft hackle flys because they just don’t get down without weight in the short drifts.  I use an AirFlo leader system. In using soft hackle and streamers should I go to a slow sink or hover leader? — Wayne To Fish is Human….To Release Divine!

As I fish soft hackles as a drowned spinner or emerger, I don’t worry about getting it down too deep.  Most of my stikes have come within the top six inches of the water column.  Soft hackles tied on a traditionalheavy wire wet fly hook like a Mustad 3906 or 3906B will have a pretty good sink rate.  I’ve seen factory wets tied on light wire hooks and these won’t get down much.  I actually prefer to have both with me so I can fish shallow or deep. As far as the Airflo leaders go, a clear intermediate would be my choice.   Peter

Response:

Wet fly fishing essentially mimics the emerger stage and normally the flies are fished quite shallow.

Good wet fly fishing synopsis deleted. As I’ve become more and more disgruntled with using weight, I’ve found myself fishing wet flies, usually soft hackles, more often. My favorite technique, mainly because it is so fun, is one I use in pocket water or rapids. I generally use a cast of two flies.  Sometimes I use two wets, but more often I use a fairly large, bushy dry caddis with a smaller, soft hackle on a dropper of about two feet. I tend to use this technique in the heat of the day or during other times when there’s little surface activity. The technique is a very active one that thoroughly covers alot of area in a short time. I generally hit each spot with a series of short, dead drift casts. As each cast begins to swing, I raise my rod tip and swing the flies through all likely lies below me with the dry skittering along the top and the wet dragging just under or at the surface. My next coverage will be a cast directly across stream. I immediately raise my rod tip and drag the flies back across the current. My last coverage of an area is a series a upstream casts where I drag the flies back toward me moving downstream at a pretty rapid rate. If no fish were stirred, I move up stream and cover the next section of the stream. This technique results in many missed strikes because of the moving fly. It will also results in many bulges, refusals, flashes etc. For every fish hooked, there will be about half a dozen fish that will move toward the flies and show you their lies. On these fish, I general cover the area surrounding the place where the fish showed with a series of dead drifts.  About half the time, I’ll hook the fish. Most of them will take the wet. The ability of this technique to bring fish up to the surface during periods of no surface activity and the viciousness of the strikes, makes this technique alot of fun. On my home water, there is a sizable Brown that sits in some shallow pocket water. I’ve moved it a number of times with this technique and hooked once but never landed it. I’ve been unable to interest this fish in any "normally" presented fly. Maybe next year. Willi

Response:

Wets are a gentle, peaceful, traditional way of fishing and I often resort to it whenever I’m just out fishing to relax.  [snip] Most

strikes on the swing are felt rather than seen so intense watching isn’t needed as much.  Tradironal wets, IMHO are the most attractive of trout flys and I enjoy tying them more than any other kind.  If you haven’t tried wet flies before, tie up a bunch and get swinging.

I had never even considered fishing a wet fly until I met up with Joel Axelrad in Wisconsin a couple of years ago, I caught a couple of fish but Joel was killing them in almost every pool fishing a traditional wet fly. I used his technique a later on the Manistee during a bright June day where nothing was hatching and caught brookie after brookie. Since then whenever nothing is happening I go to a wet before I go to a nymph. I fish straight accross regardless of the current, mend at least once after the cast and high stick on down and around, almost all of the strikes I have detected have been on the upstream drift. It lacks [snip] the indicator watching of nymphing

Why would a fisherman of your caliber even think of using a bobber on a nymph, the Juan with a size 28 fly maybe, but Ontario? <g — Wayne Knight Expert in creating tailing loops and windknots Otherwise Fishless in Kansas

Response:

The technique is a very active one that thoroughly covers alot of area in a short time. I generally hit each spot with a series of short, dead drift casts. As each cast begins to swing, I raise my rod tip and swing the flies through all likely lies below me with the dry skittering along the top and the wet dragging just under or at the surface. My next coverage will be a cast directly across stream. I immediately raise my rod tip and drag the flies back across the current. My last coverage of an area is a series a upstream casts where I drag the flies back toward me moving downstream at a pretty rapid rate. If no fish were stirred, I move up stream and cover the next section of the stream.

Could you clarify this, Willi? Do you first fish the spot thoroughly with dead drifts, and only then try the skittering and dragging? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

0] : Willi suggested we get a thread going on wet fly techniques as it’s an : under appreciated approach and one that can produce when other methods : fail. …. : Normally I use a long, slow four to six weight rod, a double taper : floating line for good mending, long 10′ to 14′ leaders, fine tippet : 5X and smaller, and no splitshot.  If I want the wet to sink deep, I : use fluorocarbon tippet and a series of upstream mends to get it down. …. : Peter Peter, nice esssay, covers the water well. A couple of comments — I find that even with fairly fussy spring creek trout I can go fairly heavy on tippet–4x, even 3x–and still catch lots of fish with soft hackles on the swing. With this I usually tie the fly into a loop so that the stiffer tippet doesn’t affect its action as much. This lack of tippet shyness is not my original observation. Sylvester Nemes remarks on it in his series of books on soft hackles. Also if I want to get down with a wet fly, I prefer to go to a sink tip rather than put weight on the tippet, and of course use the upstream mends. Nice to be talking about fishing here rather than politics and other distractions. Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories  (remove x’s from email if not      Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971   a spammer) Phone: (650)-857-5491              

Response:

[snip] Why would a fisherman of your caliber even think of using a bobber on a nymph, the Juan with a size 28 fly maybe, but Ontario? <g — Wayne Knight

You’d be downgrading that "calibre" part if you ever see me nymph. When dredging, I need all the help I can get. Peter

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Peter Peter, nice esssay, covers the water well. A couple of comments — I find that even with fairly fussy spring creek trout I can go fairly heavy on tippet–4x, even 3x–and still catch lots of fish with soft hackles on the swing. With this I usually tie the fly into a loop so that the stiffer tippet doesn’t affect its action as much. This lack of tippet shyness is not my original observation. Sylvester Nemes remarks on it in his series of books on soft hackles. Also if I want to get down with a wet fly, I prefer to go to a sink tip rather than put weight on the tippet, and of course use the upstream mends. Nice to be talking about fishing here rather than politics and other distractions. Mike

It’s quite true that the tippet size isn’t a big deal on the swing as the fish tend to charge the fly.  However, on the dead drift part of the cast, the fish do get a good look at it.  In clear water fishing to "educated" trout, I downsize my tippet.  With the long, slow rods I use, the odds of a break-off are reduced. Peter

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Question:

You might want to fish Cliff and Wade lake from that float tube. Schuh-fly

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Brian Nelson writes:

(snip good info) With closer inspection, one will find the seams and riffles just like any other freestone, only on a larger, more subtle, scale.

Thank you, Brian.  You have confirmed what I thought they might be like.  I am sure there are raging rivers out there, especially during run-off.  Thanks again. Dave LaCourse

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been scanning through some books I have on the following rivers: Madison, Clark Fork, Henry’s Fork, Big Hole, and others.  I have noticed one thing about them –  they all seem to be slow moving rivers, ranging from small to large.   The absence of rapids is obvious.  In fact, in most of the pix, the water looks like it could be a pond or lake. Now, I am sure there is a current, otherwise it wouldn’t be a river <g.  But I get the impression that they are slow moving. Western Montana topography is characterized by what is called the Broad Valley Rockies. These glacially-carved u-shaped valleys are actually fairly easy gradient (not too steep). This results in rivers which typically are not raging torrents as some people may envision the northern Rockies. The Clark Fork (the largest of the rivers) and the Big Hole, with exceptions, are fairly ‘flat’ rivers. They are still freestone and

subsequently do flood and get scary during runoff, but during the low flow times, are great rivers for getting LONG drifts with a fly. The water is moving at 3 to 5 miles an hour but it is deceiving when it is a flat stretch. With closer inspection, one will find the seams and riffles just like any other

freestone, only on a larger, more subtle, scale. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm 406-626-4022

Any time you want to floattube rivers just remember how much of you is underwater!! * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

The absolute, definitive, conclusive answer is, "It depends."  I have fished all of the rivers that you mentioned (not that it makes me an expert or anything), and I have to say that it depends on where you look and when you look there.  Henry’s Fork is a big open flat down on the Railroad Ranch section, but is whitewater a few miles upstream in Box Canyon.  Similarly, the Big Hole is pretty easy to wade in August, but is a raging torrent in June.  I fished the Stillwater last August, and it was a pretty gentle river at the time, but has a reputation for killing even expert whitewater kayakers during higher water. This is a broad generalization, but seems to be true for most of the rivers that I fish:  The downstream section is big, flat, and slow;  flows through a wide flat valley with a major highway running nearby, produces the biggest fish, and attracts the most fishermen, and is featured regularly in the flyfishing magazines.  The land is mostly privately owned, but there is usually good public access. The upper section is steeper, faster, and has more whitewater.  It is probably on Forest Service land, but it may be tricky finding a public access point. The fish are smaller and easier to catch, and you have to drive on some bad gravel road and possibly do some hiking to get to the river, so not as many fisherman (or photographers) get there. So anyway, if whitewater is what you like, you can find it on most of the rivers if you know where to look. Kevin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been scanning through some books I have on the following rivers: Madison, Clark Fork, Henry’s Fork, Big Hole, and others.  I have noticed one thing about them –  they all seem to be slow moving rivers, ranging from small to large.   The absence of rapids is obvious.  In fact, in most of the pix, the water looks like it could be a pond or lake.  Now, I am sure there is a current, otherwise it wouldn’t be a river <g.  But I get the impression that they are slow moving.  You can even float tube some of them.  If you float tubed the Rapid River in Maine, site of this year’s roff Maine Clave, you probably would die!  <g  On much  of the Rapid, a drag free drift will last but a few seconds, but on some of this Montana water, it *looks* like you can get a big long drift.  The difference is even greater when you consider a nymph drift.  Some of the pix show riffles and moderate "fast water", but nothing like I am used to. Now, I don’t mean to start a fight — this ain’t no flame baited post.  I would like to hear from you folks that fish these waters.  I will be at the Western Clave and will probably have my youngest grandson.  I am planning on fishing all of this water, and more if we can fit it in. Dave LaCourse

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I’ve been scanning through some books I have on the following rivers: Madison, Clark Fork, Henry’s Fork, Big Hole, and others.  I have noticed one thing about them –  they all seem to be slow moving rivers, ranging from small to large.  

Dave, The only one I can talk about is the Henry’s Fork a.k.a. the North Fork (of the Snake).  It is a widely varying river.  It is true that there are places with slow moving water, such as on the Railroad Ranch section and much of the water upstream to Last Chance.  Above this, in Box Canyon, the water is considerably faster.  The water below Ashton Dam is not fast, but is very braided with little foam bubbles that are hard to distinguish from a white post on a parachute Adams <g.  In between these two locations you have Upper and Lower Mesa Falls, which are definitely fast!  They also provide an outstanding view, well worth the drive to see them.  There is a scenic loop off the highway between Island Park and Last Chance which will take you to the falls. I know this isn’t a definitive "fast"or "slow" answer, but the nature of the river changes frequently, depending mostly on the elevation gradient.  Much of the Henry’s Fork is wadeable, unlike the South Fork of the Snake which is a big, deep river.  If you come down to Island Park, Take a side trip to Big Springs, which is the headwaters of the Henry’s Fork.  You can drive to where the water bubbles out of the ground.  There are usually some very large trout there that you can throw worms to (no fishing allowed).  If you have any questions I can answer, let me know. Jeff

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Dave,    After the rivers in Montana leave the mountains the gradient is fairly low as they flow east  Many of the rivers in Idaho have cut such deep canyons with sheer walls it scares the hell out of you when you drive over an old wooden bridge and look down. Ernie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’ve been scanning through some books I have on the following rivers: Madison, Clark Fork, Henry’s Fork, Big Hole, and others.  I have noticed one thing about them –  they all seem to be slow moving rivers, ranging from small to large.   The absence of rapids is obvious.  In fact, in most of the pix, the water looks like it could be a pond or lake.  Now, I am sure there is a current, otherwise it wouldn’t be a river <g.  But I get the impression that they are slow moving.  You can even float tube some of them.  If you float tubed the Rapid River in Maine, site of this year’s roff Maine Clave, you probably would die!  <g  On much  of the Rapid, a drag free drift will last but a few seconds, but on some of this Montana water, it *looks* like you can get a big long drift.  The difference is even greater when you consider a nymph drift.  Some of the pix show riffles and moderate "fast water", but nothing like I am used to. Now, I don’t mean to start a fight — this ain’t no flame baited post.  I would like to hear from you folks that fish these waters.  I will be at the Western Clave and will probably have my youngest grandson.  I am planning on fishing all of this water, and more if we can fit it in. Dave LaCourse

Response:

I’ve been scanning through some books I have on the following rivers: Madison, Clark Fork, Henry’s Fork, Big Hole, and others.  I have noticed one thing about them –  they all seem to be slow moving rivers, ranging from small to large.   The absence of rapids is obvious.  In fact, in most of the pix, the water looks like it could be a pond or lake.  Now, I am sure there is a current, otherwise it wouldn’t be a river <g.  But I get the impression that they are slow moving.  You can even float tube some of them.  If you float tubed the Rapid River in Maine, site of this year’s roff Maine Clave, you probably would die!  <g  On much  of the Rapid, a drag free drift will last but a few seconds, but on some of this Montana water, it *looks* like you can get a big long drift.  The difference is even greater when you consider a nymph drift.  Some of the pix show riffles and moderate "fast water", but nothing like I am used to. Now, I don’t mean to start a fight — this ain’t no flame baited post.  I would like to hear from you folks that fish these waters.  I will be at the Western Clave and will probably have my youngest grandson.  I am planning on fishing all of this water, and more if we can fit it in. Dave LaCourse

Response:

Jeff Shriver writes:

(good descriptions deletes for brev) If you have any questions I can answer, let me know.

Thanks, Jeff.  I am facinated by what I am seeing in these books.  I’ve had them for years and never really looked at them.  Again, thanks.   Dave LaCourse

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I’ve been scanning through some books I have on the following rivers: Madison, Clark Fork, Henry’s Fork, Big Hole, and others.  I have noticed one thing about them –  they all seem to be slow moving rivers, ranging from small to large.

You’ve already got the right response on the Henry’s Fork from other postings.  The Madison River below Quake Lake is known as the "50 mile riffle."   It is very swift and can be difficult to wade.   The Clark Fork is a free stone river, too.  I’d say keep the float tube in the car, except for Quake Lake and Henry’s Lake.

Response:

I’ve been scanning through some books I have on the following rivers: Madison, Clark Fork, Henry’s Fork, Big Hole, and others.  I have noticed one thing about them –  they all seem to be slow moving rivers, ranging from small to large. You’ve already got the right response on the Henry’s Fork from other postings. The Madison River below Quake Lake is known as the "50 mile riffle."   It is very swift and can be difficult to wade.

I was about to post the same. I’ve fished the Madison a few times, always well past any sort of seasonal runoff, and once you get past the campground down to around Rt87 and the old Stagger Ranch section, there’s miles of bubbly stuff that can make drifting a fly a challenge. Trying to think of a section of the Rapid to compare it to…the closest I can think of is the water directly below Lower Dam up to the turn at the Summer House (and not the chub water along the north bank – I mean the roily stuff along the south bank). btw: If you don’t have one of those SOSuspenders Dave, I’d think seriously about investing in the larger one before you try wading the Madison… /daytripper

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I’ve been scanning through some books I have on the following rivers: Madison, Clark Fork, Henry’s Fork, Big Hole, and others.  I have noticed one thing about them –  they all seem to be slow moving rivers …You can even float tube some of them.

Montana rivers are slow moving? Well maybe.   Dangerously fast white water is seldom good trout habitat. But that doesn’t mean drifting or float tubing Montana rivers is is safe for beginners. Nearly every river on your list does have dangerous stretches you need to know about. Log jams and irrigation dams kill more amateur floaters than white water. Note too that drifting a river is often more dangerous at low water that at high water because you have so little room to maneuver when drifting past tangles of cottonwood logs. I see more inexperienced, fool-hardy floaters every year. During the salmon fly hatch on the Big Hole in 1979 close to 20 driftboats where sunk and bashed to shreds at Brown’s Bridge alone. — /* Sandy Pittendrigh                  –oO0  * http://montana-riverboats.com  */

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writes: Montana rivers are slow moving? Well maybe.   Dangerously fast white water is seldom good trout habitat.

Uh, where did I say it WAS good trout habitat.  From what I have seen in the River Journal books, the water IS slow moving, meadering thru meadows without very many rapids.   But that doesn’t mean drifting or float tubing Montana rivers is is safe for beginners.

Never said it was, Sandy. Never even said I was going to float tube.  If I bring my float tubes, I will used them on ponds/lakes.  What I did say was that the books show float tubers in very placid water.  Three are shown on the Clark Fork in what looks like a pond, not a raging river. Nearly every river on your list does have dangerous stretches you need to know about.

That’s why I have Warren.  <g Log jams and irrigation dams kill more amateur floaters than white water. Note too that drifting a river is often more dangerous at low water that at high water because you have so little room to maneuver when drifting past tangles of cottonwood logs. I see more inexperienced, fool-hardy floaters every year. During the salmon fly hatch on the Big Hole in 1979 close to 20 driftboats where sunk and bashed to shreds at Brown’s Bridge alone.

Dave L.  (not planning on floating anything except a home-tie)      —–  Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free Usenet News via the Web  —–      —–  http://newsone.net/ —  Discussions on every subject. —–    NewsOne.Net prohibits users from posting spam.  If this or other posts

Response:

I’ve been scanning through some books I have on the following rivers: Madison, Clark Fork, Henry’s Fork, Big Hole, and others.  I have noticed one thing about them –  they all seem to be slow moving rivers, ranging from small to large.   The absence of rapids is obvious.  In fact, in most of the pix, the water looks like it could be a pond or lake.  Now, I am sure there is a current, otherwise it wouldn’t be a river <g.  But I get the impression that they are slow moving.

Western Montana topography is characterized by what is called the Broad Valley Rockies. These glacially-carved u-shaped valleys are actually fairly easy gradient (not too steep). This results in rivers which typically are not raging torrents as some people may envision the northern Rockies. The Clark Fork (the largest of the rivers) and the Big Hole, with exceptions, are fairly ‘flat’ rivers. They are still freestone and subsequently do flood and get scary during runoff, but during the low flow times, are great rivers for getting LONG drifts with a fly. The water is moving at 3 to 5 miles an hour but it is deceiving when it is a flat stretch. With closer inspection, one will find the seams and riffles just like any other freestone, only on a larger, more subtle, scale. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm 406-626-4022

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Question:

Response:

Hey, this is a "Catch & Release" newsgroup…                            - jqt –

Response:

Well said, and moderate yesiree. Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Remove me from your mailing list you forgot to say please. for that little faux-paus, you have to grovel here by posting: "oh pretty please, please for god’s sake, let me please be removed from this list" hourly, for three more weeks. sorry, it’s the facs maam. waldo, snedekerated appointed facs bastard.

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You did it again Wayne.  You used up all of the on topic subjects, now we only have off topic subjects to talk about. Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Remove me from your mailing list Wayne Harrison wrote no, wait, stop!  don’t leave!  we can do better, i swear! we’ll stay on topic, honest to god!  please, wait…listen, how about this:  um, let’s see…oh, yeah:  7.5 foot rods are great for eastern freestone streams of average size; i like thomas & thomas, but that’s because i’m a very wealthy gear whore—you can get great, all-american type bargains at cabela’s.  remember to use a 9′5wt on those big, brawling western rivers, though.  oh, yeah, if you’re looking for a tip on where to go, try the beaverkill in new york, the madison or the yellowstone in montana, the south platte in colorado…ok, here’s a *real* inside tip:  go to the confluence of the frying pan and the roaring fork in colorado; a great guide lives there, in a shiny new house.  he let’s people stay for free.  oh, if you don’t know how to cast very well, always remember to keep your wrist firm, and don’t overpower the rod, ok?  hey, if you get all frustrated about your choice of fly your first time out on the battenkill, just slip an improved clinch (tied with an orvis leader) around that trusty ol royal wulff (size 14 is *unbeatable*) and hold on, pard!  and, heck, if you don’t haul em in by the dozens, what’s to worry:  i mean, it is "fishing", not "catching", right (pretty funny, eh?), and the whole point is to just be closer to nature or give a kid a chance to fish or be with god in your own special way or… did anybody ever tell you that you snore terribly? wayno, on topic, do or die.

Response:

Remove me from your mailing list Before you buy.

Response:

Remove me from your mailing list

        no, wait, stop!  don’t leave!  we can do better, i swear! we’ll stay on topic, honest to god!  please, wait…listen, how about this:  um, let’s see…oh, yeah:  7.5 foot rods are great for eastern freestone streams of average size; i like thomas & thomas, but that’s because i’m a very wealthy gear whore—you can get great, all-american type bargains at cabela’s.  remember to use a 9′5wt on those big, brawling western rivers, though.  oh, yeah, if you’re looking for a tip on where to go, try the beaverkill in new york, the madison or the yellowstone in montana, the south platte in colorado…ok, here’s a *real* inside tip:  go to the confluence of the frying pan and the roaring fork in colorado; a great guide lives there, in a shiny new house.  he let’s people stay for free.  oh, if you don’t know how to cast very well, always remember to keep your wrist firm, and don’t overpower the rod, ok?  hey, if you get all frustrated about your choice of fly your first time out on the battenkill, just slip an improved clinch (tied with an orvis leader) around that trusty ol royal wulff (size 14 is *unbeatable*) and hold on, pard!  and, heck, if you don’t haul em in by the dozens, what’s to worry:  i mean, it is "fishing", not "catching", right (pretty funny, eh?), and the whole point is to just be closer to nature or give a kid a chance to fish or be with god in your own special way or…         did anybody ever tell you that you snore terribly? wayno, on topic, do or die.

Response:

Remove me from your mailing list

You are hearby transferred to the mailing list of alt.flyfishingvampires.flonk.flonk.flonk!! — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

Well he is not going to get a refund for unsubscribing so soon

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wayno That was goooooooooooooooooood. Almost poetic. I see an opportunity as a Wallmart greeter. My hero. Dave PS Maybe need a line on how to dress and perhaps something about how now that they are retired from mid management they can’t expect others to coddle them. Remove me from your mailing list no, wait, stop!  don’t leave!  we can do better, i swear! we’ll stay on topic, honest to god!  please, wait…listen, how about this:  um, let’s see…oh, yeah:  7.5 foot rods are great for eastern freestone streams of average size; i like thomas & thomas, but that’s because i’m a very wealthy gear whore—you can get great, all-american type bargains at cabela’s.  remember to use a 9′5wt on those big, brawling western rivers, though.  oh, yeah, if you’re looking for a tip on where to go, try the beaverkill in new york, the madison or the yellowstone in montana, the south platte in colorado…ok, here’s a *real* inside tip:  go to the confluence of the frying pan and the roaring fork in colorado; a great guide lives there, in a shiny new house.  he let’s people stay for free.  oh, if you don’t know how to cast very well, always remember to keep your wrist firm, and don’t overpower the rod, ok?  hey, if you get all frustrated about your choice of fly your first time out on the battenkill, just slip an improved clinch (tied with an orvis leader) around that trusty ol royal wulff (size 14 is *unbeatable*) and hold on, pard!  and, heck, if you don’t haul em in by the dozens, what’s to worry:  i mean, it is "fishing", not "catching", right (pretty funny, eh?), and the whole point is to just be closer to nature or give a kid a chance to fish or be with god in your own special way or… did anybody ever tell you that you snore terribly? wayno, on topic, do or die.

Response:

mraz says: remove me from your mailing iist

Actually, mraz, you are not subscribed to a mailing list.  This is a newsgroup.  YOU have to unsubscribe yourself.  No one at Rec. Outdoors. Fishing. Fly (ROFF) can unsubscribe you.  I know how to do it with my isp, but not with your’s.  Do you have a window that that says "Remove" or perhaps "Quit"? Highlight roff and click on Remove or whatever and you should be unsubscribed. good luck. Dave L.

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True, but it wouldn’t have been as much fun. Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – remove me from your mailing iist Jeff Cook wrote Okay, stop torturing the guy. <snip By the way, a simple question or polite request would have been much less noisy. Jeff Cook

Response:

remove me from your mailing iist Before you buy.

I don’t know how to break this to ya bud, but you subscribed yourself and only you can unsubscribe.  Perhaps you should use the Help feature in your email/news client and put in the word "subscribe" in the help search.   Don’t blame us if you don’t know how to use your newsreader. Peter

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<snipped some helpful advice Please hold, an analysts will be with you shortly. <elevator music

actually Insid….doesn’t roff employs a proctologist for unsubscribing the az’s… jeff (avoiding the endoscope and proctoscope, and enjoyin the sh*t outta        roff)

Response:

Well he is not going to get a refund for unsubscribing so soon

I say we hold him hostage and stake him out for the meowers…

Response:

remove me from your mailing iist

Okay, stop torturing the guy. This is not a mailing list, it is a newsgroup. You are not subscribed to anything, but are actively asking for these messages to be displayed. Ask your internet provider or read the help files of your newsgroup reader software or your my-deja.com service to figure out how to drop rec.outdoors.fly.fishing from your active newsgroup list so you won’t be distracted by it anymore. By the way, a simple question or polite request would have been much less noisy. — Jeff Cook http://www.cookstudios.com Washington DC area

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good luck.

There should be instructions on deja.com on how to do this, it’s not an ISP issue unless you are accessing through a news server as opposed to a web site. — Charlie…

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        i have come to the terrifying conclusion that this goddam place is the hotel california, without the "champagne on ice", and all the other perks.

ROFLMAO! bc.

Response:

remove me from your mailing iist Before you buy.

Response:

remove me from your mailing iist

Pardon me, could you please repeat that?

Response:

remove me from your mailing iist

But you haven’t even asked for the address to send the unsubscribe fee.  It takes an incredible number of man-hours to unsubscride someone from this end, and we need to pass the costs onto the person requesting an emergency unsubscription. Now, it may cost you extra, as the ROFF tech staff is not sure where we keep the "iists" for mailing. Please hold, an analysts will be with you shortly. <elevator music

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I say we hold him hostage and stake him out for the meowers…

Let’s stake him out and give him a good flonking! — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

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I was extremely disappointed to find that you made no mention of what breathable waders he should buy. –Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – no, wait, stop!  don’t leave!  we can do better, i swear! we’ll stay on topic, honest to god!  please, wait…listen, how about this:  um, let’s see…oh, yeah:  7.5 foot rods are great for eastern freestone streams of average size; i like thomas & thomas, but that’s because i’m a very wealthy gear whore—you can get great, all-american type bargains at cabela’s.  MORE GREAT STUFF DELETED wayno, on topic, do or die.

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Remove me from your mailing list

OK, I give up.  Whence cometh this overwhelming need to be abused in a public forum?  Would the Flagellants not accept you?  Have you been so naughty that you feel no punishment is strong enough?  What….WHAT on this Earth compels one to so obviously and abjectly come begging for a beating?

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Remove me from your mailing list Wolfgang replied OK, I give up.  Whence cometh this overwhelming need to be abused in a public forum?  Would the Flagellants not accept you?  Have you been so naughty that you feel no punishment is strong enough?  What….WHAT on this Earth compels one to so obviously and abjectly come begging for a beating?

Add him to the femailing list. Ernie

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Good luck. I have been trying to unsubscribe for 5 years. I have finally determined this NG is the ultimate virus that even my Norton Super Virus Killer cannot kill.

Response:

Good luck. I have been trying to unsubscribe for 5 years. I have finally determined this NG is the ultimate virus that even my Norton Super Virus Killer cannot kill.

        i have come to the terrifying conclusion that this goddam place is the hotel california, without the "champagne on ice", and all the other perks.         wayno, who is…afraid

Response:

Remove me from your mailing list

you forgot to say please. for that little faux-paus, you have to grovel here by posting: "oh pretty please, please for god’s sake, let me please be removed from this list" hourly, for three more weeks. sorry, it’s the facs maam. waldo, snedekerated appointed facs bastard.

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Wayno That was goooooooooooooooooood. Almost poetic. I see an opportunity as a Wallmart greeter. My hero. Dave PS Maybe need a line on how to dress and perhaps something about how now that they are retired from mid management they can’t expect others to coddle them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Remove me from your mailing list no, wait, stop!  don’t leave!  we can do better, i swear! we’ll stay on topic, honest to god!  please, wait…listen, how about this:  um, let’s see…oh, yeah:  7.5 foot rods are great for eastern freestone streams of average size; i like thomas & thomas, but that’s because i’m a very wealthy gear whore—you can get great, all-american type bargains at cabela’s.  remember to use a 9′5wt on those big, brawling western rivers, though.  oh, yeah, if you’re looking for a tip on where to go, try the beaverkill in new york, the madison or the yellowstone in montana, the south platte in colorado…ok, here’s a *real* inside tip:  go to the confluence of the frying pan and the roaring fork in colorado; a great guide lives there, in a shiny new house.  he let’s people stay for free.  oh, if you don’t know how to cast very well, always remember to keep your wrist firm, and don’t overpower the rod, ok?  hey, if you get all frustrated about your choice of fly your first time out on the battenkill, just slip an improved clinch (tied with an orvis leader) around that trusty ol royal wulff (size 14 is *unbeatable*) and hold on, pard!  and, heck, if you don’t haul em in by the dozens, what’s to worry:  i mean, it is "fishing", not "catching", right (pretty funny, eh?), and the whole point is to just be closer to nature or give a kid a chance to fish or be with god in your own special way or… did anybody ever tell you that you snore terribly? wayno, on topic, do or die.

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Question:

Roffians, A friend of mine wants to get on ROFF but doesn’t really know how to do it. He is using AOL, which I’m not familiar with. I was hoping one of you who have AOL could give him some guidance. His name is Dennis, his email is Thanks Tim Apple — "Bamboo is Better"

Response:

A friend of mine wants to get on ROFF but doesn’t really know how to do it. He is using AOL, which I’m not familiar with. I was hoping one of you who have AOL could give him some guidance. His name is Dennis, his email is Thanks

From the task bar, Click on Internet, Click on Newsgroups Click on Expert Add Type in rec.outdoors.fishing.fly, press enter he will be subscribed To read Click on Internet Click on Newsgroups Click on read my Newsgroups Wayne who if he could ever get his other ISP to work right on text based newsgroups would leave aol in a heartbeat. Wayne Knight (remove nospam to respond via mail) Expert in the creation of  wind knots and tailing loops.

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Question:

Thanks, I may give it a shot sometime soon. In a sit-on-top kayak, staying dry is not much of an option<g. I would expect to stay in pretty close to shore and away from other boats though. I’m not sure since I have never kayaked…but I have used a lake canoe out there.  It is advisable of course to use it in areas where you can avoid heavy boat traffice <obviously. But to answer your question simply…yes…it would probably be a godsend for you. Make sure you have enough room to keep stuff dry Tight lines,

– Charlie…

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I’m not sure since I have never kayaked…but I have used a lake canoe out there.  It is advisable of course to use it in areas where you can avoid heavy boat traffice <obviously. But to answer your question simply…yes…it would probably be a godsend for you. Make sure you have enough room to keep stuff dry Tight lines, — Nicholas J. Slodki

:Nicholas, : :Would a sea kayak be any good down there. I just bought a sit-on-top :and have been thinking about trying it around that area (I’m in :Atlanta). Thanks. : : :Bryan, : :I’ve lived in that area many times before and visit constantly. : :What I suggest is an outfit from 7-10 wt., WF Intermediate or sinktip type :II, and a reel with a min. of 220 yards of 20lb.  backing. : :If you head over toward panama city or are able to get back in the marshes :in Choctawhatchee and St. Andrews Bays, you’re in for a treat.  They haven’t :had much rain down there until this last week and the water should be :relatively clear and the bottom stable.  Redfish and Seatrout will be moving :into the back harbors and inlets at this time of year as winter is :approaching.  On the jetties at the pass entrances, spanish mackerel, reds, :pomano in the surf and flats, jacks, possibly some blues, specks and small :sharks should be everywhere. : :Leaders should be no less 7′ and tapered to a min. of 10lb. class tippet. :Shock tippets would be good for the spanish…about a foot of 30lb. :albrighted to the tippet. : oppers are a must on the flats in the early mornings or evenings for reds, :specks and jacks.  Some dredging flies <McCrab, clousers, Puffs no larger :than a size 1 hook are good during the day.  Also deceivers in red/yellow, :white/yellow, white/black are excellent.  For the spanish macks, glass :minnows in a fast retrieve are way good. : :Make sure you bring a good pair of wading shoes that protect your feet from :shell debris and stingrays (yes, they’re everywhere too lol), a hat, and a :good pair of sunglasses. : :Hope this was helpful to you. : :– :Charlie…

Response:

Bryan, I’ve lived in that area many times before and visit constantly. What I suggest is an outfit from 7-10 wt., WF Intermediate or sinktip type II, and a reel with a min. of 220 yards of 20lb.  backing. If you head over toward panama city or are able to get back in the marshes in Choctawhatchee and St. Andrews Bays, you’re in for a treat.  They haven’t had much rain down there until this last week and the water should be relatively clear and the bottom stable.  Redfish and Seatrout will be moving into the back harbors and inlets at this time of year as winter is approaching.  On the jetties at the pass entrances, spanish mackerel, reds, pomano in the surf and flats, jacks, possibly some blues, specks and small sharks should be everywhere. Leaders should be no less 7′ and tapered to a min. of 10lb. class tippet. Shock tippets would be good for the spanish…about a foot of 30lb. albrighted to the tippet. Poppers are a must on the flats in the early mornings or evenings for reds, specks and jacks.  Some dredging flies <McCrab, clousers, Puffs no larger than a size 1 hook are good during the day.  Also deceivers in red/yellow, white/yellow, white/black are excellent.  For the spanish macks, glass minnows in a fast retrieve are way good. Make sure you bring a good pair of wading shoes that protect your feet from shell debris and stingrays (yes, they’re everywhere too lol), a hat, and a good pair of sunglasses. Hope this was helpful to you. — Nicholas J. Slodki

:I am looking for anyone who may have some tips to share for fly fishing near :the Sandestin Resort in Florida.  I am planning to go mid October. Any :information on areas and tackle would be very helpful to a new initiate. : : :

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Nicholas, Would a sea kayak be any good down there. I just bought a sit-on-top and have been thinking about trying it around that area (I’m in Atlanta). Thanks. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Bryan, I’ve lived in that area many times before and visit constantly. What I suggest is an outfit from 7-10 wt., WF Intermediate or sinktip type II, and a reel with a min. of 220 yards of 20lb.  backing. If you head over toward panama city or are able to get back in the marshes in Choctawhatchee and St. Andrews Bays, you’re in for a treat.  They haven’t had much rain down there until this last week and the water should be relatively clear and the bottom stable.  Redfish and Seatrout will be moving into the back harbors and inlets at this time of year as winter is approaching.  On the jetties at the pass entrances, spanish mackerel, reds, pomano in the surf and flats, jacks, possibly some blues, specks and small sharks should be everywhere. Leaders should be no less 7′ and tapered to a min. of 10lb. class tippet. Shock tippets would be good for the spanish…about a foot of 30lb. albrighted to the tippet. Poppers are a must on the flats in the early mornings or evenings for reds, specks and jacks.  Some dredging flies <McCrab, clousers, Puffs no larger than a size 1 hook are good during the day.  Also deceivers in red/yellow, white/yellow, white/black are excellent.  For the spanish macks, glass minnows in a fast retrieve are way good. Make sure you bring a good pair of wading shoes that protect your feet from shell debris and stingrays (yes, they’re everywhere too lol), a hat, and a good pair of sunglasses. Hope this was helpful to you.

– Charlie…

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I am looking for anyone who may have some tips to share for fly fishing near the Sandestin Resort in Florida.  I am planning to go mid October. Any information on areas and tackle would be very helpful to a new initiate.

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Question:

For those of us that spend too much time in the office and not nearly relief.  www.1photo.com/fish2much.htm

Response:

For those of us that spend too much time in the office and not nearly relief.  www.1photo.com/fish2much.htm

Or one could just take their favorite photo to almost any Kinko’s and have a mouse pad made from it for about half the cost. John Fereira

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Question:

Does anyone have any place they recommend avoiding in the Bahamas for one reason or another… safety? crowds? pollution? Thanks! Patrick

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Does anyone have any place they recommend avoiding in the Bahamas for one reason or another… safety? crowds? pollution?

Nassau, for the three reasons mentioned. — DAVe & Skoshi, ‘69 Stamas 26′ http://personal.mia.bellsouth.net/mia/d/r/drsi/

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Does anyone have any place they recommend avoiding in the Bahamas for one reason or another… safety? crowds? pollution?

How ’bout that endless expanse of white sand gliding by just inches below your keel…  Y’know, The Bottom.  Definitely, avoid the bottom.

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I will NEVER go back to Nassau! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone have any place they recommend avoiding in the Bahamas for one reason or another… safety? crowds? pollution? How ’bout that endless expanse of white sand gliding by just inches below your keel…  Y’know, The Bottom.  Definitely, avoid the bottom.

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Does anyone have any place they recommend avoiding in the Bahamas for one reason or another… safety? crowds? pollution? Thanks! Patrick

Nassau for sure!

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The northernmost Abacos seemed a tad dreary… of course it’s all relative; fishermen find Walker’s Cay a piscatorial paradise- scuba & beachcombing too. Norman’s Cay was a smuggling hotspot in the ’80s, but appears to be under control… now pilots fly there for fishing, scuba & gourmet food, not ‘business’.  Bimini & points south ditto. When cruising anywhere truly remote, tho, a bit of disgression is a good idea. Trimtab Does anyone have any place they recommend avoiding in the Bahamas for one reason or another… safety? crowds? pollution? Thanks! Patrick

Before you buy.

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All the places I go

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<snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a case of advice that is misguided, and when one generalizes with "Never", they are failing to consider that numerous "lake" type vessels have made quite successful voyages to and through the Bahamas, simply by selecting the weather conditions appropriate to their vessel.  Obviously when a norther is blowing against the Stream, or the winter trades are at their best, even well found cruising designs find it wiser to remain in port, but to simply recommend against this voyage under any conditions, is to be out of touch with the reality of what frequently occurs with great success.  Pick your weather, ang go!  With the shoal draft, and large accomodations, a house boat can be a wonderful cruising design for the Bahamas, with the obvious necessity to carry adequate fuel. Good Cruising, 73 — Sean Holland NP2AU S/V Spindrift

You know in all the posts on this subject, nobody has thought to ask our intrepid boater just how fast his houseboat can go.  If he can wring 20kts out of it wihtout straining, it’s only a 2.5 or 3 hour crossing … more than enough time if he waits for the weather.  He can strap a liferaaft to the stern, tank up with gas, turn on his GPS, get out his charts and be in the Bahamas in time for lunch if he starts out at 0830!  The posters talking about leaving at night in order to get to port at the destination in the daylight are talking about doing 5 or 6 kts, not 15 or 20. If he really wants to know, he should take the boat offshore a ways to see how it reacts in ocean swells in the kind of weather he wants to cross in.  If he has trouble, he can head back; if he isn’t intent on crossing, he’ll head back anyway.  You’ll never know until you try it. Colin S.

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There are houseboats in the Virgin Islands and I’m sure they weren’t built there.

Sure there are; and they may have island hopped in good weather to get there.  Or they may have come as deck cargo on a freighter. I’m not trying to rain on your parade; but safety comes first, for both you and your crew. You worked hard all your life to enjoy your retirement.  Don’t become a U.S. Coast Guard statistic. Jim Md.

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Previously in response to a request for info on taking a house boat to the Bahamas someone said: You’re pushing the envelope friend.  In no case should a houseboat be taken offshore.   If you want to go to the Bahamas, buy an airline ticket. There are houseboats in the Virgin Islands and I’m sure they weren’t built there.

This is a case of advice that is misguided, and when one generalizes with "Never", they are failing to consider that numerous "lake" type vessels have made quite successful voyages to and through the Bahamas, simply by selecting the weather conditions appropriate to their vessel.  Obviously when a norther is blowing against the Stream, or the winter trades are at their best, even well found cruising designs find it wiser to remain in port, but to simply recommend against this voyage under any conditions, is to be out of touch with the reality of what frequently occurs with great success.  Pick your weather, ang go!  With the shoal draft, and large accomodations, a house boat can be a wonderful cruising design for the Bahamas, with the obvious necessity to carry adequate fuel. Good Cruising, 73 — Sean Holland NP2AU S/V Spindrift

Response:

This is a case of advice that is misguided, and when one generalizes with "Never", they are failing to consider that numerous "lake" type vessels have made quite successful voyages to and through the Bahamas, simply by selecting the weather conditions appropriate to their vessel.  Obviously when a norther is blowing against the Stream, or the winter trades are at their best, even well found cruising designs find it wiser to remain in port, but to simply recommend against this voyage under any conditions, is to be out of touch with the reality of what frequently occurs with great success.  Pick your weather, ang go!  With the shoal draft, and large accomodations, a house boat can be a wonderful cruising design for the Bahamas, with the obvious necessity to carry adequate fuel.

I agree that is is silly, if not rude, to tell a prospective motor boater or sailer to "buy an airplane ticket," but I still think that taking a houseboat across the Gulf Stream is, well, not smart.  To cross the stream under the best conditions, one must leave Florida in the evening in order to cross the bar at Bimini or go into the canal at Grand Bahama in daylight (and don’t Bahamas’ customs rules require daylight entry?)  Not all water-borne hazard will be spotted at night, and for an inexperienced captain, large cargo ships can be a real hazard; a flat bottom houseboat is not the vessel for maneouvering in shipping lanes. Also, the weather can never be predicted with the kind of reliability that would allow one to cross the Gulf Stream in a houseboat, particularly in winter, the main crusing time; and again, the deep water passages between the westerly cays and Nassau require better.   That "lake type sailboats" often venture to the Bahamas succesfully is merely an argument by ancedote, and so a dangerous one.  There are many, many, many cruisers anchored (right now!) in Elizabeth Harbor, off Georgetown, who got there on sheer luck alone.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a case of advice that is misguided, and when one generalizes with "Never", they are failing to consider that numerous "lake" type vessels have made quite successful voyages to and through the Bahamas, simply by selecting the weather conditions appropriate to their vessel.  Obviously when a norther is blowing against the Stream, or the winter trades are at their best, even well found cruising designs find it wiser to remain in port, but to simply recommend against this voyage under any conditions, is to be out of touch with the reality of what frequently occurs with great success.  Pick your weather, ang go!  With the shoal draft, and large accomodations, a house boat can be a wonderful cruising design for the Bahamas, with the obvious necessity to carry adequate fuel. I agree that is is silly, if not rude, to tell a prospective motor boater or sailer to "buy an airplane ticket," but I still think that taking a houseboat across the Gulf Stream is, well, not smart.  To cross the stream under the best conditions, one must leave Florida in the evening in order to cross the bar at Bimini or go into the canal at Grand Bahama in daylight (and don’t Bahamas’ customs rules require daylight entry?)  Not all water-borne hazard will be spotted at night, and for an inexperienced captain, large cargo ships can be a real hazard; a flat bottom houseboat is not the vessel for maneouvering in shipping lanes. Also, the weather can never be predicted with the kind of reliability that would allow one to cross the Gulf Stream in a houseboat, particularly in winter, the main crusing time; and again, the deep water passages between the westerly cays and Nassau require better. That "lake type sailboats" often venture to the Bahamas succesfully is merely an argument by ancedote, and so a dangerous one.  There are many, many, many cruisers anchored (right now!) in Elizabeth Harbor, off Georgetown, who got there on sheer luck alone.

Another opinion:  A few years ago those of us who made 5 knots or less felt we should cross at night, so that if we missed the Bahamas altogether we would have all day to find the island we were looking for.  With GPS that is no longer necessary.  Easiest crossing is 50 NM from Lake Worth to West End  on Grand Bahama Island.  Anchor in Lake Worth until you are sure of settled weather with wind from the west.  I have waited as long as 10 days for the right conditions.  There will be other boats waiting out weather.  Often a group of boats cross together.  It is a comfort to cross with other boats.  The entrance to the marina at West End is tricky.  I have gone in there at least ten times, and I still worry about it. From West End on around as far as Little Harbor there are short hops and numerous anchorages.  I don’t recommend the stretch from Little Harbor to Eleuthera in a houseboat. I haven’t hear of a restriction on entering the Bahamas at night.  Go in and either anchor or dock, raise the yellow "Q" flag and don’t get off the boat until Customs arrives.

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Anchor in Lake Worth until you are sure of settled weather with wind from the west.  I have waited as long as 10 days for the right conditions. If the wind is out of the west, ahead of a cold front, wouldn’t you expect it to clock through NW then North as the front passes?  Not a good time to be in the stream. John L. Miller

Yes, sometimes the window is only about 4 hours from the time the wind picks up from the west (almost *always* in advance of a cold front) to the time it swings around to a 30 knot+ northerly gale.  Against the fast north- flowing Gulf Stream, the sea conditions become unbelievably bad with any breeze from the north. I’d ship the houseboat if I were you.  The Bahama banks would be a wonderful place for a boat like that, but getting it there across the Gulf Stream is quite a big risk. Dan

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 This is a case of advice that is misguided, and when one generalizes with "Never", they are failing to consider that numerous "lake" type vessels have made quite successful voyages to and through the Bahamas, simply by selecting the weather conditions appropriate to their vessel.

I said never and I meant never.  Houseboats are not designed for offshore work under any circumstances.  Talking about ideal wind and sea conditions is nonsense.  We are not explorers, we are pleasure boaters;   and there is no reason to place any person aboard in danger with a vessel which can only operate in ideal wind and sea conditions. The insurance companies share this view, I believe. Ask what the premium increase will be for a houseboat taken offshore.   Jim Md.

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Anchor in Lake Worth until you are sure of settled weather with wind from the west.  I have waited as long as 10 days for the right conditions.

If the wind is out of the west, ahead of a cold front, wouldn’t you expect it to clock through NW then North as the front passes?  Not a good time to be in the stream. John L. Miller

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Anchor in Lake Worth until you are sure of settled weather with wind from the west.  I have waited as long as 10 days for the right conditions. If the wind is out of the west, ahead of a cold front, wouldn’t you expect it to clock through NW then North as the front passes?  Not a good time to be in the stream. John L. Miller

Absolutely true! An Irwin 45 named "Sandy Lanes" that took off ahead of me in the westerlies before a strong cold front, wound up being driven ashore on the west side of Gun Cay! I waited until after the front passed when light southerlies began to blow and had no problem. — J.A. Rogers Sailaway Cruising Club http://www.cqws.com/zone1/sailaway/

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One of the respondents to Horace’ query stated: : You’re pushing the envelope friend.  In no case should a houseboat be : taken offshore.  I might try it if I was a Haitian boat person; but : fortunately, I’m not. : : If you want to go to the Bahamas, buy an airline ticket. Depends on the houseboat, doesn’t it?  For shoal water cruising, a smaller houseboat, with less draft, would be far more appropriate than many of the offshore keelboats currently pussyfooting around the banks. Even a craft as large as Horace’s houseboat would be vastly preferable to a similar sized keelboat, if one wanted to follow the barrier reef down Andros Is. On the other hand, a craft as well-powered as Horace’s houseboat shouldn’t have problems finding an appropriate window of time, in which to cross the Straits of Florida safely. He’ll probably have greater problems finding a mooring at port of entry (grin). If I did it, I’d want a smaller boat with less than 2′ of draft, even if it were substantially slower.  But hell, if you’ve got the boat, and the desire (and the money)… Go for it, Horace! It should be a real adventure! Good Cruising, —      Bob Martin

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The boat is 60×14 with 22" of freeboard and a 42" draft. She has twin 228HP MercCruser outdrives and a fuel capacity of 175 Gals. Cruise speed at 1500RPM is about 8 knots with 21 knots at full speed. I plan to install Radar and GPS before the trip. Am I crazy or do you think this is possible ? What would you recommend ?

You’re pushing the envelope friend.  In no case should a houseboat be taken offshore.  I might try it if I was a Haitian boat person; but fortunately, I’m not. If you want to go to the Bahamas, buy an airline ticket. YOu should keep that nice houseboat in sheltered waters.  And there are plenty of sheltered waters that are perfect for you.  How about the ICW from New England to Fla?  How about the Erie Canal, the nicest fresh water cruise on the planet?  How about the Mighty Mississipp? Good Luck. Jim Md.

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You’re pushing the envelope friend.  In no case should a houseboat be taken offshore.  I might try it if I was a Haitian boat person; but fortunately, I’m not. If you want to go to the Bahamas, buy an airline ticket.

There are houseboats in the Virgin Islands and I’m sure they weren’t built there. — J.A. Rogers Sailaway Cruising Club http://www.cqws.com/zone1/sailaway/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ed: I’m in the process of rebuilding, from the hull up, a 60ft houseboat with the ultimate purpose of curising to the Bahamas from the closest point in Florida when I retire in six years. I’ve talked to a couple of people who say this is possible, if I pick the right time of year and watch the weather carefully. The boat is 60×14 with 22" of freeboard and a 42" draft. She has twin 228HP MercCruser outdrives and a fuel capacity of 175 Gals. Cruise speed at 1500RPM is about 8 knots with 21 knots at full speed. I plan to install Radar and GPS before the trip. Am I crazy or do you think this is possible ? What would you recommend ?

There was a rig which moored in Daytona Beach for a while.  On a small river barge type hull was a white frame building with a sign "Marine Research Laboratory" (It allowed anchoring in places where people might otherwise object.)  Around the perimeter of the barge were trailer hitch balls.  The owner supposedly took it to the Bahamas using a "tug" consisting of an open runabout with a large outboard.  He had a short tower frame on the tug with another trailer hitch ball and an A-frame with three female hitchs on the corners.  By repositioning the frame he could pull, push, or run along side.  He did spend some time waiting for just the right weather conditions. I think your houseboat is several cuts above this in surviveability, but yes, the word crazy does come to mind.  Crazy is fine as long as you don’t expect someone else to bail you out. Roger —

Response:

You’re pushing the envelope friend.  In no case should a houseboat be taken offshore.  I might try it if I was a Haitian boat person; but fortunately, I’m not. If you want to go to the Bahamas, buy an airline ticket. There are houseboats in the Virgin Islands and I’m sure they weren’t built there.

I second that!  A houseboat on the Gulf Stream is courting suicide, and there ARE some deep water passages to be made within the archipelago. Don’t do it, especially as a novice. Go, but with a good keel and skeg beneath you.

Response:

You’re pushing the envelope friend.  In no case should a houseboat be taken offshore.  I might try it if I was a Haitian boat person; but fortunately, I’m not. If you want to go to the Bahamas, buy an airline ticket. There are houseboats in the Virgin Islands and I’m sure they weren’t built there. — J.A. Rogers Sailaway Cruising Club http://www.cqws.com/zone1/sailaway/

There might be places that you could go through once you are there.  I think a lot of large freight (cars etc) go by local freighters.  That approach should get your boat there. I crossed the Gulf stream with a perfect forcast.  By the time I was 2 hours out, I was seeing the worst continuous conditions that I had ever seen in 30 years of sailing. We are all masters of our vessels despite what anyone says.  I would give this all little thought though. Hans Paabor Rocinante I Scarborough, Ontario With great power comes great responsiblity (Spiderman)

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I mentally swapped the critical specs of your houseboat and was thinking it draws 22” and has 42” of freeboard when I wrote advising you to Go For It! Considering you have almost no spare freeboard and are a bit deeper than I believed, I should qualify my answer: You probably should not go in winter, when the weather is quite changeable (and the forecasts are therefore less reliable). Keeping in mind that safe anchorages may sometimes be 30-40 miles (i.e.four-six hours) apart, if the wind springs up suddenly the resulting sea might be too much for your boat. The Banks can develop a very steep chop. I don’t know how well houseboats drive into head seas but I suspect, not too well. You should find out first-hand before going. Dead calm conditions are, I’m told,  common in late spring and summer (save for the odd hurricane, but that’s another story).  At any rate, take a liferaft or Whaler type dinghy and a handheld VHF. And, of course, insure the vessel. Byron

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If anyone is contemplating cruising in Bahamas, I may be able to help. While I have not been to each cay, I have cruised throughout the island nation, from Walker’s Cay on the north to Long Island in the southern region. This year I am going south thru southernmost Bahamas to Turks & Caicos, despite news of major drug running and politicians’ alleged

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Ed: I’m in the process of rebuilding, from the hull up, a 60ft houseboat with the ultimate purpose of curising to the Bahamas from the closest point in Florida when I retire in six years. I’ve talked to a couple of people who say this is possible, if I pick the right time of year and watch the weather carefully. The boat is 60×14 with 22" of freeboard and a 42" draft. She has twin 228HP MercCruser outdrives and a fuel capacity of 175 Gals. Cruise speed at 1500RPM is about 8 knots with 21 knots at full speed. I plan to install Radar and GPS before the trip. Am I crazy or do you think this is possible ? What would you recommend ? Thanks Ron Brown

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If anyone is contemplating cruising in Bahamas, I may be able to help. region. This year I am going south thru southernmost Bahamas to Turks & Caicos, despite news of major drug running and politicians’ alleged

In 16 years cruising in the Bahamas, drug running and politicians have been the least of my worries or problems.  They are simply not an issue for the average cruiser, and there are fewer drugs to encounter in the islands than on your average midtown street corner back in the states. Just returned from a fast passage from Ft. Lauderdale to Provo, (T&C), and the only problems encountered were related to the vessel, rather than politics or recreational pharmacy products. Good Sailing, 73,  Sean — Sean Holland NP2AU S/V Spindrift

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Go for it! Weather is key but the crossing from Miami to Gun Cay or Bimini should only take you a few hours (it’s 50nm or thereabouts). You will want to cross during a period of winds <12kts out of a southerly quadrant. You should experience chop no more than a foot or two over an easy swell. We spent a winter cruising the Bahamas in a 36′ sailboat. So long as you pick your weather carefully and hole up in one of the many protected anchorages during frontal passages, you should have no problem. Additionally, your shoal draft will open up many anchorages denied sailboats. So you should be able to avoid any unpleasantness. I would urge you to buy a short-wave receiver like the Grundig Yacht Boy 400 to get USCG weathercasts on NMN and to tune into the Bahamas marine net, as well as the big picture weather outlook from "Herb" on 12.359 at 2000 UCT. You may have to be very patient to get favorable conditions for operating in the NW Providence Channel; if it’s wintertime, you probably don’t want to operate in the northern half of the Bahamas (Abacos) as they get some very nasty weather indeed. Good luck! Byron Westerly ketch "Vela"

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Question:

I am new to the San Diego area and am looking for nearby fisheries.  Where can I find trout without driving for hours.  Any fly fishing streams? Thanks for the help.

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I am new to the San Diego area and am looking for nearby fisheries.  Where can I find trout without driving for hours.  Any fly fishing streams? Thanks for the help.

I do not know of any local fisheries, and NO local fly fishing streams.  Some people fly fish at cuyamaca and Murray, but I don’t know how well those lakes work.   Good luck Dave

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Try the surf for corvina.  I no they aren’t trout — but they are close and a challenge. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am new to the San Diego area and am looking for nearby fisheries.  Where can I find trout without driving for hours.  Any fly fishing streams? Thanks for the help. I do not know of any local fisheries, and NO local fly fishing streams.  Some people fly fish at cuyamaca and Murray, but I don’t know how well those lakes work.   Good luck Dave

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Contact San Diego Fly Fishers org c/o Strouds Tackle, Morena Blvd, San Diego CA for info on the group and its meetings (7 pm first Monday ea month).  Some SDFF members (not me) speak of  wild trout streams in the county that have 11"-12" trout.  SDFF also stocks county streams with hatchery trout each year. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Try the surf for corvina.  I no they aren’t trout — but they are close and a challenge. I am new to the San Diego area and am looking for nearby fisheries.  Where can I find trout without driving for hours.  Any fly fishing streams? Thanks for the help. I do not know of any local fisheries, and NO local fly fishing streams.  Some people fly fish at cuyamaca and Murray, but I don’t know how well those lakes work.   Good luck Dave

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Lake Poway has trout.. haven’t tried ‘em, but I guess I should — Bob Dobson RAD Solutions www.radsolutions.com

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Question:

I am very interested in taking a flyfishing trip to Montana and would very much appreciate any info on when and where to go. I am considering driving up during the late May-late June time frame. I have primarily fished in WA on stillwaters (beaver ponds,etc.) and would like suggestions as to which rivers might offer the best access for wading as I don’t have access to a boat. I would be interested in hiring a guide for a couple of days; if anyone has either personal experience with or knowlege of any reputable guides I would be most appreciative.   Email response is OK for the sake of bandwidth. Thanks in advance. Kelly Van Arsdel

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I am very interested in taking a flyfishing trip to Montana and would very much appreciate any info on when and where to go. I am considering driving up during the late May-late June time frame. I have primarily fished in WA on stillwaters (beaver ponds,etc.) and would like suggestions as to which rivers might offer the best access for wading as I don’t have access to a boat. I would be interested in hiring a guide for a couple of days; if anyone has either personal experience with or knowlege of any reputable guides I would be most appreciative.

    Late May to late June, eh?  Well, a couple of good smaller rivers that should be in pretty good shape then are Rock Creek, the Big Hole and Beaverhead Rivers, and probably the upper reaches of the Jefferson.  I’d suggest going mid-June or so, that way you can probably wander into the salmon fly hatch on one of those streams, which is a gas.  I personnally am partial to the upper stretches of the Big Hole, but Rock Creek, while it still has water in it, might be a better bet.    All of these waters are in western MT, btw.                     Scott

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| | I am very interested in taking a flyfishing trip to Montana and would very | much appreciate any info on when and where to go. I am considering driving | up during the late May-late June time frame. I have primarily fished in WA | on stillwaters (beaver ponds,etc.) and would like suggestions as to which | rivers might offer the best access for wading as I don’t have access to a | boat. I would be interested in hiring a guide for a couple of days; if anyone | has either personal experience with or knowlege of any reputable guides I | would be most appreciative.  I’ve only been up there once, but had a great time.  I would suggest thinking about july or august.  June may be a little early with runnoff and conditions.  Also, if you havent been to Yellowstone, you may want to go there instead….fly into Jackson Hole and then go north and fish the madison, yellowstone, or others.  Or, you could fly into one of towns north of yellowstone park in montana(livingston or boseman).  Then you would have the option of going in several directions.  However, the yellowstone park is worth visiting.  Also, if they’re rising the yellowstone river ten or twenty miles above old faithful is great. drex

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