Question:

Trip Reports Soon: It has taken a lot just to get back on the saddle again business wise. Our trip was amazing in so many ways and we have a few pictures to post on our web site soon.  Just digitizing them into the computer takes effort as most know.  It will be a few more days before we are able to post them.  I will keep everyone posted as this is fly fishing at its’ finest. — Mr.Gink "the saga continues"   http://www.gink.com/

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I will keep everyone posted as this is fly fishing at its’ finest.

Actually, that was over at the ROFF clave, sorry you missed it.  But a notch down from the ROFF clave could still have been pretty good. Regards, Jeff

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Trip Reports Soon: Our trip was amazing in so many ways and we have a few pictures to post on our web site soon.

Looking forward to it, I’ve always wanted to see a picture of someone casting a fly while their head was up their ass.

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Is the Gink Conclave anything like the Winston Cup or the Nokia Sugar Bowl? <snip "Goddamn, well I declare! Their walls are built from  cannonballs;  their motto is ‘don’t tread on me’" -Uncle Jerry

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Is the Gink Conclave anything like the Winston Cup or the Nokia Sugar Bowl?

I think it’s something that happens on occasion in public restrooms<g. — Charlie…

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Question:

All, I found this experience to be fascinating. While fishing the Manistee river in western Michigan, Dad & I casually donned our gear and schlepped the few hundred feet from the car to a stairs leading down to the river. Upon landing we began sizing up the water and realized that we were probably in the wrong place, as the water was very featureless and deepened quickly from the banks that we found ourselves on.  Well, as we were feeling a bit lazy, we decided to give it a try anyway.  Walking upstream a few yards, I happened upon a little gravel bed that jutted into the river allowing me a few extra feet to wade so I walked out and started pondering what to fish.  Tried a few things, deep, shallow, etc with no luck.  Felt kinda like fishing a lake as there were no feature to speak of except (of course) the little gravel bed I was standing on (who was it that once said…"you can always tell the inexperienced fisherman because he is wading where he should be fishing and fishing where he should be wading?)  After about an hour of flailing about I happened to gaze down into the water and was shocked to see at least 5, yes five very large brown trout  feeding right next to my feet.  AHA! finally a challenge.  So I carefully proceded to fish every last fly in my box in every conceivable presentation style past these fish only to watch them move out of the way as my fly du seconde floated by.  After a while, I simply gave up and watched them feed, and began learning…. Russell

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Russell,    You were probably dislodging insects with your feet and the fish were taking advantage of it.  This is not an uncommon occurrence in heavily fished waters where the fish get used to the fisherman. Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I found this experience to be fascinating. <snip I happened to gaze down into the water and was shocked to see at least 5, yes five very large brown trout  feeding right next to my feet <snip Russell

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Russell,    You were probably dislodging insects with your feet and the fish were taking advantage of it.  This is not an uncommon occurrence in heavily fished waters where the fish get used to the fisherman. Ernie I found this experience to be fascinating. <snip I happened to gaze down into the water and was shocked to see at least 5, yes five very large brown trout  feeding right next to my feet <snip Russell

Ernie, You are probably right, however they seemed to also be feeding in front of me in the typical dodge and slide pattern.  It was awesome to watch. Russell

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Question:

I think that for either Irish or, especially, Scotch whisky, you have to use Spey gear.

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Realize how silly this is? It’s starting to sound like, "it’s OK to use too-light gear and kill the fish because a dead fish is just as good as a live one so long as it’s left in the environment." I think I’ll start thunking my "released" fish on the head so I can take a nice picture of them on the grass next to my Orvis bamboo and woven creel; then I’ll toss them back in the river dead. On second thought, I think I’ll follow what’s his-name’s advice in the Curtis Creek Manifesto: "fly fishing is the classiest chess game in town. It’s only good manners to leave the pieces on the board for the other players."

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C&R exists to feed the bears ?

Not just the bears.  Otters, ospreys, eagles, pelicans, and other critters that eat fish. In Yellowstone, the needs of the indigenous species take precedence over humans when it comes to using fish as a food source.  Even dead fish (regardless of how they die) are a food source for the indigenous animals.  No surprise, really, as Yellowstone (and other NPs) is managed as a natural area. BTW…..the C&R regs for Yellowstone are not universal.  They apply to certain species and/or certain waters in the Park.  There are plenty of C&K opportunities in the Park as well.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – C&R exists to feed the bears ? Not just the bears.  Otters, ospreys, eagles, pelicans, and other critters that eat fish. In Yellowstone, the needs of the indigenous species take precedence over humans when it comes to using fish as a food source.  Even dead fish (regardless of how they die) are a food source for the indigenous animals.  No surprise, really, as Yellowstone (and other NPs) is managed as a natural area. BTW…..the C&R regs for Yellowstone are not universal.  They apply to certain species and/or certain waters in the Park.  There are plenty of C&K opportunities in the Park as well.

It doesn’t matter, it’s evil, EVIL I tell you.  Don’t you know, I said it’s EVIL!!!!!!    Why isn’t anybody listening to me?  It’s EVIL and you all are EVIL for even uttering that word.  How dare you talk about bears, it’s beers as far as Tim is concerned.  The more beer present in your bloodstream, the more coherent Tim’s theories become…that is his grand scheme to take over the world.  :-) Okay, I think I need to go eat now, too little blood sugar I suppose.      - Ken — "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the  initiative in creating the Internet."  - Al Gore

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Rusty Hook: Even if a fish is dead or dying, it is to be released, where it will be found (and eaten) by park wildlife. TBone: I struggle with this justification for C&R in a big way. C&R exists to feed the bears ? Doesn’t fly with me any more than leaving the half eaten jiffy pop on a stump for the same reason.

I see your point, and can see some potential problems with the policy, such as attracting bears (& other animals) to places frequented by humans. OTOH, I think the reason they say this is to answer the question, "So what do I do if a fish is gill-hooked, but illegal to keep? Won’t it just go to waste if I leave it?" Also, as others have said, in a national park, wildlife always has top priority (or should, anyway). I agree with you that it doesn’t justify C&R; I see it more as a policy of absolutely no harvest (by humans) in certain areas of the park, no matter what. When I’m in Yellowstone, I take it a step further by not fishing these areas at all. There plenty of park waters that allow some harvest, and that’s where I go. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyo Before you buy.

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It doesn’t matter, it’s evil, EVIL I tell you.  Don’t you know, I said it’s EVIL!!!!!!    Why isn’t anybody listening to me?  It’s EVIL and you all are EVIL for even uttering that word.  How dare you talk about bears, it’s beers as far as Tim is concerned.  The more beer present in your bloodstream, the more coherent Tim’s theories become…that is his grand scheme to take over the world.  :-) Okay, I think I need to go eat now, too little blood sugar I suppose.

GEEZ!!!!!!  SORRY!  How foolish of me……. Oh…..I have tried the beer bit.  At my normal consumption rate (not small), but I haven’t noticed an increase in coherency.  I guess I need to increase consumption. I hope you have now restored your blood sugar levels….

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If you fish for stocked trout don’t worry about them dying, most do. Don’t touch a native fish unless you have to.

Drive Me There

EcardsEcards#2Expedia mapsJERRY F Bible MapblastF-KEYSPhoto pointMUSIC-100Music ShopClearCache

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[deleted] Even if a fish is dead or dying, it is to be released, where it will be found (and eaten) by park wildlife.

I struggle with this justification for C&R in a big way. C&R exists to feed the bears ? Doesn’t fly with me any more than leaving the half eaten jiffy pop on a stump for the same reason. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…" B.M.P.I.A.

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around the goal of harvesting or gathering food. I mean, what other goal can there possibly be for these skills we practice?  If it is not food, then it is just a game for our enjoyment, something akin to golf or tennis. Playing and landing a fish is just as important as getting it to strike in the first place, and even though you’ll never land all the fish you hook, you can improve (at least I can!).

You make a good argument, and if I am truly fishing for the table or the frig, I do "feel badly" about losing the fish.  But mostly I C&R and at the end of the fight I will give the fish some slack and hope it self-releases.  Actually bringing the fish to hand is unimportant to me, but I respect that others have a different perspective. Pat K

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : :But the set of skills is still centered :around the goal of harvesting or gathering food. I mean, what other :goal can there possibly be for these skills we practice?  If it is not : People fish for very different, personal reasons.  Most can’t really : even put into words the exact reason why they fish.  How can you, : however subtly, tell someone that their reasons for fishing are : "wrong"? After I posted it, I imagined it might be taken that way given that when posted it enters a huge ROFFian context of previous discussions, and I want to say to Joe that I am not saying this has to be everybody’s "way". In regards to what you are saying, I am *not* saying anything about the reasons someone fishes, I am only saying something about the skills involved. I purposely directed it towards an explanation of the skillset, not the act of fishing itself. And since I said nothing about the reasons people fish, I certainly didn’t claim anyone’s reasons were "wrong".

I have a hard time buying that.  Since it was in response to someone being happy fishing without a hook and the statement that fishing for other reasons makes fishing a game or sport, but yes I’m probably going by the larger "ROFF context".  As long as you say here that other people’s reasons are not "wrong" then I’ll take your word for what you meant before.      - Ken — "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the  initiative in creating the Internet."  - Al Gore

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I’d LDR most of ‘em if I could get my fly back.

If your flies are de-barbed, you can usually do this by putting a little slack in the line. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyo Before you buy.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Success to me is when you’ve done all : that right and persuade a fish to strike.   I don’t deny there’s some : pleasure and satisfaction in bringing a big one to the net, but its a very : small part of the challenge, and I do that as quickly as possible.    I’d : LDR most of ‘em if I could get my fly back. So, in my mind, if we are to be fishermen we should honor the complete set of skills that fishing is based on. Yes, we now can and often do go catch fish and release them, thus "practicing" the skills of fishing, and enjoying it. But the set of skills is still centered around the goal of harvesting or gathering food. I mean, what other goal can there possibly be for these skills we practice?  If it is not food, then it is just a game for our enjoyment, something akin to golf or tennis.

This seems very condescending to me.  We’ve had this discussion before. People fish for very different, personal reasons.  Most can’t really even put into words the exact reason why they fish.  How can you, however subtly, tell someone that their reasons for fishing are "wrong"?     – Ken — "Many go fishing all their lives without knowing that it is not fish  they are after."    - Henry David Thoreau

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Yup, most definately. Provided you kill and eat what you catch. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…" B.M.P.I.A.

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As I understand it, where C&R is mandatory, you have no choice but to release the fish. Keeping it would be illegal, for whatever reason.

This is brought up in the Yellowstone fishing regs. In the park, the main reason for c&r is to leave the trout in place as a food source for other animals. (This is also a major reason why the lake trout infestation of Yellowstone Lake is taken so seriously.) Even if a fish is dead or dying, it is to be released, where it will be found (and eaten) by park wildlife. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyo Before you buy.

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<snip I’d LDR most of ‘em if I could get my fly back.

Easy fix – just clip off the hook.  I’ve done that by accident many times (now I know to check my fly more often) and the fishing was just as enjoyable as with a hook as long as I didn’t know<G.  Now I mostly fish barbless or with a pinched down barb so remote release is pretty easy. Maybe too easy… –Stan

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Success to me is when you’ve done all : that right and persuade a fish to strike.   I don’t deny there’s some : pleasure and satisfaction in bringing a big one to the net, but its a very : small part of the challenge, and I do that as quickly as possible. I’d : LDR most of ‘em if I could get my fly back. Interesting…below is a piece I wrote for this month’s local FF club newsletter: Well, not me. Nope, nosiree. I feel bad when I lose a fish. After all, I failed to bring it to hand. And I don’t want to get comfortable with failure. OK, maybe you’re thinking that I take fishing way too seriously. It’s not that I get angry or anything like that—I enjoy fishing whether I catch something or not—but it’s just that I don’t want to get comfortable with a job half done, so to speak.

<snip I don’t disagree with you or at all preach that my way should be everybody’s way.   It’s just that I grew up as a bait fisherman, spending many a day enjoyably pulling fish out of the Chesapeake Bay for fun and for dinner.   I just don’t find that challenging anymore.   I KNOW I can catch fish.   I know I can retrieve a hooked fish more often than not.   Playing a fish is still fun and I still like it; it’s just not necessary to my happiness. Relatively, I am a neophyte in the fly fishing arena.   I have a lot to learn and a lot of skills to hone.   At this stage of my ffing life, it is in conquering these challenges that I find enjoyment.   Reeling in fish just isn’t one of them for me.   Been there, done that.   YMMV. Joe F.

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Amongst my fishing aquaintances, bragging rights go to the people who catch the biggest fish in relation to the lightest tackle. IME, after a 20 minute fight, the fish dies shortly thereafter. So how does one resolve the paradox of quickly and safely bringing in a fish vs. using light enough line to make it a bit of a challenge?

To me, that’s one of the biggest differences between fly & bait fishing. In fly fishing, the bigger challenges are in stalking the fish; selecting the correct stream position; selecting the right fly, tippet, etc.; and making a good cast and presentation.   Success to me is when you’ve done all that right and persuade a fish to strike.   I don’t deny there’s some pleasure and satisfaction in bringing a big one to the net, but its a very small part of the challenge, and I do that as quickly as possible.    I’d LDR most of ‘em if I could get my fly back. Joe F.

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You’re fishing friends need to grow some more brain cells.  I suggest using a tippet size that is sufficient to land the fish well short of exhausting it, yet fine enough that the tippet is not readily noticeable to the quarry.

Actually, that’s the much more interesting question.  IMO the tippet should be the right size to turn over the fly, yet not hinder the desired action or float.  I’ve read studies where fish pick off dead-drifting beetles, etc with huge pieces of mono stuck in them.  I could be wrong but I don’t think visibility of the tippet is always of big concern.  It could be in certain situations I guess. Regards, Jeff

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So how does one resolve the paradox of quickly and safely bringing in a fish vs. using light enough line to make it a bit of a challenge?

I resolve this "paradox" by not making the size of the line or tippet part of the "challenge".  I just don’t play that game.  The challenge is in getting the fish to take, and not letting it get off.  If a small tippet is required for presentation, so be it.  But I never would purposely use a small tippet or rod just to make a game out of landing the fish. Regards, Jeff

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David writes: Amongst my fishing aquaintances, bragging rights go to the people who catch the biggest fish in relation to the lightest tackle. IME, after a 20 minute fight, the fish dies shortly thereafter.

You’re fishing friends need to grow some more brain cells.  I suggest using a tippet size that is sufficient to land the fish well short of exhausting it, yet fine enough that the tippet is not readily noticeable to the quarry. Pat K

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I usually only go light enough to fool the fish.  Bragging about it is silly if they really are interested in letting them go. Mu

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Some people need or want "bragging rights" for all sorts of things.  This is probably not the best basis for comtemplative fly-angling.

Amen! Peter G. Aitken

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Amongst my fishing aquaintances, bragging rights go to the people who catch the biggest fish in relation to the lightest tackle. IME, after a 20 minute fight, the fish dies shortly thereafter. So how does one resolve the paradox of quickly and safely bringing in a fish vs. using light enough line to make it a bit of a challenge? Does one change tackle if C&R is the rule of the day? Can anything be done to help a fish survive after a hard fight? I personally C&R most of the time, but don’t want to release a fish that will probably not make it.

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 I personally C&R most of the time, but don’t want to release a fish that will probably not make it.

Assuming that this isn’t a troll, this topic has been done to death here, not that it won’t be again, or can’t be done now.  Try doing a deja search on c&r or ethics, you may be surprised and incredibly bored with what you find. — Levi "There are no facts, only interpretations." -Friedrich Nietzsche

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The size of your gear should be matched to the size of your target fish. Purposely fishing too light is not a good thing to do as far as the fish are concerned.  What is ethical is something you will have to decide for yourself.  If one fishes, one must accept that there will be casualties, if this is disturbing, then one should not fish, irrespective of whether one practises C&R or C&K. The best way to ensure fish survival is to bring them in fairly quickly, unhook them without touching them, or at least wet your hands thoroughly before touching them.  Holding the fish gently upright in the water for a moment may help to revive it. As I understand it, where C&R is mandatory, you have no choice but to release the fish. Keeping it would be illegal, for whatever reason. An exhausted fish is less of a problem if you are going to keep it anyway, you just knock it on the head. Some people need or want "bragging rights" for all sorts of things.  This is probably not the best basis for comtemplative fly-angling. TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

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Question:

Well, not that I am an Indian giver (where did that saying come from?),

        well, from our own indian joe, of course:  one christmas eve, he was up on his rooftop, when along came a jolly old elf and a dozen far out reindeer.  they landed next to joe, startling him;  the white bearded old elf shouted, happily:  we are bringing gifts to you, sir, will you have them?  joe responded testily, "you can give me anything you please, but i’ll give you hell in a peach basket if you don’t get off my roof!         so ends the tale.  asadi, is that you….? wayno

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OK, counselor, how do I get the "master copy" of the shirt to give to my local t-shirt person.  With your permission, of course, I would like to use it for next year’s Easter ‘Clave.  I have a feeling that most claves in the future will have the same print if you and Anthony give us permission, of course. Dave LaCourse

        no problem with me, louie; but anthony is muttering something about a buck per shirt commish…         wayno, who aint worried about college tuition.

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<Lots of good stuff snipped It implies more…but in less words…"Fishing is Life, and Life is Short, so Don’t Waste it !"

Great post! George Adams

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Tim, you’re freakin’ me out, man… Your internal struggles aside, I agree with the sentiment. Well said, and rightly spoken… A damned good shirt it is. I have three – though one of those is for my neighbor Dave "Garden Hackler" LaCourse (you’ll get it when I see you again – probably on our river in September)… Enjoy yours, Tim. And if by some stroke of fortune I see you on the street in Glenwood – RUN LIKE HELL! /daytripper ;^) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have worn my "Caroline Clave ‘99" shirt proudly now several times.  I wore it to work yesterday.   The more I have it, the more I think about it, the more I want to tell Wayne’s son that he has captured *it* perfectly. I mean *perfectly* as in there is no room for improvement. For one, the huge R.O.F.F. on the front…it *should* say, be that man. When I walk down the street here in Glenwood a visiting ROFFian could see it and introduce himself in person.  I want that, I really want that to happen. That some made the Clave, some didn’t, some wouldn’t.  But would wear the shirt, or understand the culmination of and importance of this new technology as we shift milleniums.  Brought together on an electron plane we have become friends in a way new to mankind, new in all ways to our evolution.  "R.O.F.F." in huge letters.  We recognize this. We are proud. A very, very important moment that we’re all experiencing in *our* lives. Perfection. But even more…the phrase…"Fishing is Life, Don’t Waste it", *is* ‘perfect’. Coupled with the youthful idealism of a child drawn innocent rendition of a trout makes it (to the continued chagrin of Maclean’s Mentor) "even more perfect". I struggled with it at first, I admit. "Fishing is Life". At first I thought of obssessive, compulsive greed behavior transmitted in this message, as in "screw the kids, screw the checkbook, screw the environment, I’m going fishing every day of my compulsive screwed up life". But this is more like "Fishing is Too Important to me and I’m out of balance, Sick, about it in fact".  Not the elegent, simpler…."Fishing is Life". No… Fishing *is* life.  The act of fishing, a fisherman, alive in the world, fishing, it is life. It is life. It can be no other thing.  Regardless of any other connotation or metaphor for fishing, it most certainly *is* life. There can be no doubt. "Don’t waste it". Perfect. This is not a statement of "Catch and Release", "Catch and Kill" or "Catch and Count" it’s *whatever it is. *DON’T WASTE IT*.  Catch one, quit and eat it.  Catch several and release them carefully, but *savor* them, *savor* them.  Do NOT waste it.  What better possible statement of conservation, of "Wasting Life" can be said ? It implies more…but in less words…"Fishing is Life, and Life is Short, so Don’t Waste it !" "R.O.F.F. – Caroline Clave ‘99 – Fishing is Life (Youth) Don’t Waste It" I’d certainly like to meet the Harrison’s.  *THAT’S* for damned sure. Way to go Anthony. Way to go Wayno. Way to go ROFF. Your Pal,

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day tripper writes accurately and poetically: <<Tim, you’re freakin’ me out, man… Your internal struggles aside, I agree with the sentiment. Well said, and rightly spoken… Hear, hear.  Could not agree more, Dave.  In fact, I think the Eastern Clave next year will use the same "A. Harrison print", with a different location/date.  What say you all? <<A damned good shirt it is. I have three – though one of those is for my neighbor Dave "Garden Hackler" LaCourse (you’ll get it when I see you again – probably on our river in September)… Well, not that I am an Indian giver (where did that saying come from?), but I gave you my *only* clave t-shirt.  I thought I had another one, but I must have left it in NC.  So, I will see you on the river with your generous offer, sir.  I would have gone to my grave keeping silent about my loss, but since you have *three*, Dave LaCourse

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OK, counselor, how do I get the "master copy" of the shirt to give to my local t-shirt person.  With your permission, of course, I would like to use it for next year’s Easter ‘Clave.  I have a feeling that most claves in the future will have the same print if you and Anthony give us permission, of course. Dave LaCourse

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Well said that man. I am also the proud owner of the aforementioned piece of piscatorial apparel, thanks to the good offices of Mr Harrison. It is just about the most valuable item in my whole fishing collection, but not in terms of money, depicting as it does very many things, much of what you said Tim, and a lot more besides. Maybe one day I will actually get to meet some of you, and that would be very nice, but in the meantime I wear the shirt occasionally, and imagine fishing places like Hazel creek, or hiking up a mountain stream with a few good friends. Getting amiably inebriated on the porch of a log cabin somewhere and discussing C&R vs. C&K in the flesh, singing silly songs, eating weird food that no civilised person would entertain, (grits ???), regularly checking the meniscus on the communal whisky bottle with Wolfgang maybe, and arguing over how many drinks are left in it, and whose turn it is to open the next one,  fishing with miniscule flies for gigantic fish, gigantic flies for miniscule fish, and lots and lots of other things too. Amazing what a simple thing like a t-shirt can conjure up, sort of a cotton version of Aladdin’s lamp. ROFF really is a quite amazing place. Tight lines ! Mike Connor

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… Brought together on an electron plane we have become friends in a way new to mankind, new in all ways to our evolution.  "R.O.F.F." in huge letters.  We recognize this. We are proud. …

Gawd, I love it when you get on a roll. There just ain’t no disguisin’ the camaraderie of ROFF in the face of a post from the heart. Thanks, Timbo. — Ken Fortenberry

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On certain occasions the statements from Glenwood echo and reverberate… On any occasion I’m proud to say Tim is my friend….this being one. way to go bud. –Walt (who will be wearing his tee proudly this weekend) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have worn my "Caroline Clave ‘99" shirt proudly now several times.  I wore it to work yesterday.   The more I have it, the more I think about it, the more I want to tell Wayne’s son that he has captured *it* perfectly. I mean *perfectly* as in there is no room for improvement. For one, the huge R.O.F.F. on the front…it *should* say, be that man. When I walk down the street here in Glenwood a visiting ROFFian could see it and introduce himself in person.  I want that, I really want that to happen. That some made the Clave, some didn’t, some wouldn’t.  But would wear the shirt, or understand the culmination of and importance of this new technology as we shift milleniums.  Brought together on an electron plane we have become friends in a way new to mankind, new in all ways to our evolution.  "R.O.F.F." in huge letters.  We recognize this. We are proud. A very, very important moment that we’re all experiencing in *our* lives. Perfection. But even more…the phrase…"Fishing is Life, Don’t Waste it", *is* ‘perfect’. Coupled with the youthful idealism of a child drawn innocent rendition of a trout makes it (to the continued chagrin of Maclean’s Mentor) "even more perfect". I struggled with it at first, I admit. "Fishing is Life". At first I thought of obssessive, compulsive greed behavior transmitted in this message, as in "screw the kids, screw the checkbook, screw the environment, I’m going fishing every day of my compulsive screwed up life". But this is more like "Fishing is Too Important to me and I’m out of balance, Sick, about it in fact".  Not the elegent, simpler…."Fishing is Life". No… Fishing *is* life.  The act of fishing, a fisherman, alive in the world, fishing, it is life. It is life. It can be no other thing.  Regardless of any other connotation or metaphor for fishing, it most certainly *is* life. There can be no doubt. "Don’t waste it". Perfect. This is not a statement of "Catch and Release", "Catch and Kill" or "Catch and Count" it’s *whatever it is. *DON’T WASTE IT*.  Catch one, quit and eat it.  Catch several and release them carefully, but *savor* them, *savor* them.  Do NOT waste it.  What better possible statement of conservation, of "Wasting Life" can be said ? It implies more…but in less words…"Fishing is Life, and Life is Short, so Don’t Waste it !" "R.O.F.F. – Caroline Clave ‘99 – Fishing is Life (Youth) Don’t Waste It" I’d certainly like to meet the Harrison’s.  *THAT’S* for damned sure. Way to go Anthony. Way to go Wayno. Way to go ROFF. Your Pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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Mike Connor: <<Maybe one day I will actually get to meet some of you, and that would be very nice, but in the meantime I wear the shirt occasionally, and imagine fishing places like Hazel creek, or hiking up a mountain stream with a few good friends. Getting amiably inebriated on the porch of a log cabin somewhere and discussing C&R vs. C&K in the flesh, singing silly songs, eating weird food that no civilised person would entertain, (grits ???), regularly checking the meniscus on the communal whisky bottle with Wolfgang maybe, and arguing over how many drinks are left in it, and whose turn it is to open the next one,  fishing with miniscule flies for gigantic fish, gigantic flies for miniscule fish, and lots and lots of other things too. Well, my friend from across the pond, all you have to do is show up at Logan Airport, Boston, Ma., in September of 2000.  If you come early, you may spend some time at my home and together we will go to Maine and some wonderful fishing with some wonderful people.  No need to rent a car — just get here.   Perhaps you can drag with you some other Your-o-pean Roffians, like Bill, Hans, and Herman.  Maybe even Christian if he can get away from his studies.  The same offer applies to them — no need to rent a car.  I will provide your transportation.   More info to follow after I venture up north in September.  Sure would be nice to have a European Cabin –  nothing but good ol boys errrrrrr, make that blokes, from across the pond. Dave LaCourse

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Gawd, I love it when you get on a roll. There just ain’t no disguisin’ the camaraderie of ROFF in the face of a post from the heart. Thanks, Timbo. — Ken Fortenberry

speakin’ of camaraderie…how come you ain’t on the road yet?. my kickin foot is gettin’ itchy. waldo — Ezflyfish.com                 Blue Ridge Book Gallery Quality Gear & Service        Used & Out-of-Print Books http://www.ezflyfish.com      http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

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speakin’ of camaraderie…how come you ain’t on the road yet?. my kickin foot is gettin’ itchy.

I’ll hit the road at crack of dawn tomorrow, my friend. Hope to be at Jeff’s cabin around 7 Friday evening. FYI, my email has been down since 4 a.m. this morning. A construction crew cut a cable and my office has no electricity. Since I’ve eschewed the campus email system with its built in redundancy in favor of the SGI on my desk that I’ve customized in my own quirky fashion, I find myself hoist on my own petard and incommunicado for the time being. That’s what I get for being a smartass. I’ll try to answer emails before I leave in the morning. — Ken Fortenberry

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I’ll have a JAX bud waitin fer ya! Waldo the thoughtful – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – speakin’ of camaraderie…how come you ain’t on the road yet?. my kickin foot is gettin’ itchy. I’ll hit the road at crack of dawn tomorrow, my friend. Hope to be at Jeff’s cabin around 7 Friday evening. FYI, my email has been down since 4 a.m. this morning. A construction crew cut a cable and my office has no electricity. Since I’ve eschewed the campus email system with its built in redundancy in favor of the SGI on my desk that I’ve customized in my own quirky fashion, I find myself hoist on my own petard and incommunicado for the time being. That’s what I get for being a smartass. I’ll try to answer emails before I leave in the morning. — Ken Fortenberry

– Ezflyfish.com                 Blue Ridge Book Gallery Quality Gear & Service        Used & Out-of-Print Books http://www.ezflyfish.com      http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

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… and maybe a different color tee as well.

No ! The natural cotton color is PERFECT. Cool, doesn’t draw bugs, blends in for stealth, what more could you ask for in a T-shirt color ? — Ken Fortenberry

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Truly an excellent post Tbone. Jeff Boks Fly  Fishing~~~~~Just Do It

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Ken, Don’t forget to make a point of fishing Elk River.  Walt will make up some wild story to keep you off it but don’t be dissuaded!  When you have brought a double digit number of 15 inch + Browns to hand, take some pictures and tales into Fay’s Hardware in Linville to tell Paul.  He keeps a special surprise for the fly fisherman who brings in the best story of fishing the Elk each week! Wayne To fish is human…to release divine.

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day tripper writes accurately and poetically: <<Tim, you’re freakin’ me out, man… Your internal struggles aside, I agree with the sentiment. Well said, and rightly spoken… Hear, hear.  Could not agree more, Dave.  In fact, I think the Eastern Clave next year will use the same "A. Harrison print", with a different location/date.  What say you all?

Excellent! I think making a series of shirts is a killer idea, Dave. Keep the R.O.F.F., keep the artwork, keep the slogan, just change the location and year, and maybe a different color tee as well. Good stuff! <<A damned good shirt it is. I have three – though one of those is for my neighbor Dave "Garden Hackler" LaCourse (you’ll get it when I see you again – probably on our river in September)… Well, not that I am an Indian giver (where did that saying come from?), but I gave you my *only* clave t-shirt.  I thought I had another one, but I must have left it in NC.  So, I will see you on the river with your generous offer, sir.  I would have gone to my grave keeping silent about my loss, but since you have *three*,

As I promised you before, it’s a done deal. I was hoping to present it to you on a striper foray, but while you and I were having a ball on The River, most of the stripers apparently swam on up to Maine. Seems like only the little dudes stuck around down here – the fishing has been very slow on the ‘Mack… /daytripper

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… and maybe a different color tee as well. No ! The natural cotton color is PERFECT. Cool, doesn’t draw bugs, blends in for stealth, what more could you ask for in a T-shirt color ?

Is *that* what this color is? (we don’t grow no cotton in New England). The color is fine, I was just thinking of how to provide some variety in a series of roffian ‘clave shirts. But "blends in for stealth"? Where do you fish where the background is "natural cotton"? Even in the toaster oven that has been New England this year, our backgrounds are greens and browns. Wear a Carolina ‘Clave shirt on the stream here and the fish would have to put on their shades ;^) /daytripper

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On certain occasions the statements from Glenwood echo and reverberate… On any occasion I’m proud to say Tim is my friend….this being one. way to go bud. –Walt (who will be wearing his tee proudly this weekend)

Couldn’t of said it better if Mike had said it for me. Cheers Peter

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Is there a reason for the trailing dot in "R.O.F.F."?

Yes.   Period. Your pal, — TimW

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A damned good shirt it is. I have three – though one of those is for my neighbor Dave "Garden Hackler" LaCourse (you’ll get it when I see you again – probably on our river in September)… Enjoy yours, Tim. And if by some stroke of fortune I see you on the street in Glenwood – RUN LIKE HELL!

God I love this place!  I can’t tell you how much enjoyment I get out of here every day!  It is truely one of the bright spots when I am too busy to be fishing. Warren

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you go, Timbo.  very well said. Mark Faulkner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … Brought together on an electron plane we have become friends in a way new to mankind, new in all ways to our evolution.  "R.O.F.F." in huge letters.  We recognize this. We are proud. … Gawd, I love it when you get on a roll. There just ain’t no disguisin’ the camaraderie of ROFF in the face of a post from the heart. Thanks, Timbo. — Ken Fortenberry

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I have worn my "Caroline Clave ‘99" shirt proudly now several times.  I wore it to work yesterday.   The more I have it, the more I think about it, the more I want to tell Wayne’s son that he has captured *it* perfectly.    thanks a lot for your comment.  it was very nice.  and 1 more thing.  

just to tell u what i think about my slogan, what i mean about ‘DON’T WASTE IT’ is that, as u said, life is short, but i think if no one has gone fishing at least 730 days in their whole life, their life is not complete.                               From the little man.         and from the big, old, man:  kinder words have never been spoken on behalf of me and mine.  it takes a long time to lose a friend from north carolina.  you never will. wayno

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evolution.  "R.O.F.F." in huge letters.  We recognize this. We are proud.

Is there a reason for the trailing dot in "R.O.F.F."? And, how about a non-clave generic ROFF T-shirt? I’ll have two of those, please. — Christian Figenschou – <URL: http://figen.com

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I have worn my "Caroline Clave ‘99" shirt proudly now several times.  I wore it to work yesterday.   The more I have it, the more I think about it, the more I want to tell Wayne’s son that he has captured *it* perfectly. I mean *perfectly* as in there is no room for improvement. For one, the huge R.O.F.F. on the front…it *should* say, be that man. When I walk down the street here in Glenwood a visiting ROFFian could see it and introduce himself in person.  I want that, I really want that to happen. That some made the Clave, some didn’t, some wouldn’t.  But would wear the shirt, or understand the culmination of and importance of this new technology as we shift milleniums.  Brought together on an electron plane we have become friends in a way new to mankind, new in all ways to our evolution.  "R.O.F.F." in huge letters.  We recognize this. We are proud. A very, very important moment that we’re all experiencing in *our* lives. Perfection. But even more…the phrase…"Fishing is Life, Don’t Waste it", *is* ‘perfect’. Coupled with the youthful idealism of a child drawn innocent rendition of a trout makes it (to the continued chagrin of Maclean’s Mentor) "even more perfect". I struggled with it at first, I admit. "Fishing is Life". At first I thought of obssessive, compulsive greed behavior transmitted in this message, as in "screw the kids, screw the checkbook, screw the environment, I’m going fishing every day of my compulsive screwed up life". But this is more like "Fishing is Too Important to me and I’m out of balance, Sick, about it in fact".  Not the elegent, simpler…."Fishing is Life". No… Fishing *is* life.  The act of fishing, a fisherman, alive in the world, fishing, it is life. It is life. It can be no other thing.  Regardless of any other connotation or metaphor for fishing, it most certainly *is* life. There can be no doubt. "Don’t waste it". Perfect. This is not a statement of "Catch and Release", "Catch and Kill" or "Catch and Count" it’s *whatever it is. *DON’T WASTE IT*.  Catch one, quit and eat it.  Catch several and release them carefully, but *savor* them, *savor* them.  Do NOT waste it.  What better possible statement of conservation, of "Wasting Life" can be said ? It implies more…but in less words…"Fishing is Life, and Life is Short, so Don’t Waste it !" "R.O.F.F. – Caroline Clave ‘99 – Fishing is Life (Youth) Don’t Waste It" I’d certainly like to meet the Harrison’s.  *THAT’S* for damned sure. Way to go Anthony. Way to go Wayno. Way to go ROFF. Your Pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip If we’re going to split rec.boats.paddling (and rec.boats.canoing *is* a split despite the ambigous naming) the topic with the biggest chuck of traffic should be split off (whitewater) and a misc group created for everything else. For example, my proposal would be: rec.boats.paddling.whitewater rec.boats.paddling.flatwater rec.boats.paddling.misc even though I would still prefer that everything remains as it is, in one newsgroup. John, Creating rec.boats.paddling.whitewater and leaving "everyone else" in R.B.P is probably a more viable solution. 1) It’s less work than creating 3 new groups

Not really. All three groups could be proposed in the same RFD. 2) It’s less exclusive: ww postys would go to R.B.P.W and EVERYTHING else would go to R.B.P

The primary reason that I suggested using .misc is that a strong precedent has been set using this convention and it would likely be backed by Tale (David Lawrence) and other new.group gurus. 3) The volumes would be "balanced" between the groups 4) There wouldn’t be any arguments about where Sea Kayaks, S-O-T’s, etc would go

per my suggestion, anything that was ambiguous would go into r.b.p.misc. r.b.p. would only exist as a hierarchy, but not as a group.   This has been done many times before. IMHO, The creation of a WW-only group is the "best" solution to this issue.

I agree, but if a change is going to be made, following conventional usenet naming conventions would be very advantagous as far as getting support form outside the paddling newsgroups. John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email – Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

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John, Your proposal is making excellent sense. Dan Amerman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip If we’re going to split rec.boats.paddling (and rec.boats.canoing *is* a split despite the ambigous naming) the topic with the biggest chuck of traffic should be split off (whitewater) and a misc group created for everything else. For example, my proposal would be: rec.boats.paddling.whitewater rec.boats.paddling.flatwater rec.boats.paddling.misc even though I would still prefer that everything remains as it is, in one newsgroup. John, Creating rec.boats.paddling.whitewater and leaving "everyone else" in R.B.P is probably a more viable solution. 1) It’s less work than creating 3 new groups Not really. All three groups could be proposed in the same RFD. 2) It’s less exclusive: ww postys would go to R.B.P.W and EVERYTHING else would go to R.B.P The primary reason that I suggested using .misc is that a strong precedent has been set using this convention and it would likely be backed by Tale (David Lawrence) and other new.group gurus. 3) The volumes would be "balanced" between the groups 4) There wouldn’t be any arguments about where Sea Kayaks, S-O-T’s, etc would go per my suggestion, anything that was ambiguous would go into r.b.p.misc. r.b.p. would only exist as a hierarchy, but not as a group.   This has been done many times before. IMHO, The creation of a WW-only group is the "best" solution to this issue. I agree, but if a change is going to be made, following conventional usenet naming conventions would be very advantagous as far as getting support form outside the paddling newsgroups. John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email – Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip If we’re going to split rec.boats.paddling (and rec.boats.canoing *is* a split despite the ambigous naming) the topic with the biggest chuck of traffic should be split off (whitewater) and a misc group created for everything else. For example, my proposal would be: rec.boats.paddling.whitewater rec.boats.paddling.flatwater rec.boats.paddling.misc even though I would still prefer that everything remains as it is, in one newsgroup.

John, Creating rec.boats.paddling.whitewater and leaving "everyone else" in R.B.P is probably a more viable solution. 1) It’s less work than creating 3 new groups 2) It’s less exclusive: ww postys would go to R.B.P.W and EVERYTHING else would go to R.B.P 3) The volumes would be "balanced" between the groups 4) There wouldn’t be any arguments about where Sea Kayaks, S-O-T’s, etc would go IMHO, The creation of a WW-only group is the "best" solution to this issue.

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If we’re going to split rec.boats.paddling (and rec.boats.canoing *is* a split despite the ambigous naming) the topic with the biggest chuck of traffic should be split off (whitewater) and a misc group created for everything else. For example, my proposal would be: rec.boats.paddling.whitewater rec.boats.paddling.flatwater rec.boats.paddling.misc even though I would still prefer that everything remains as it is, in one newsgroup.

John, thank you for all the assistance you have been, and will continue to be in these discussions. Your long experience with these matters shows through, as does your wisdom. They are appreciated, even if we don’t necessarily agree. — Wes — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email — always at Talkway.

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Gregg, I am just curious, how long does it take you to scan the thread titles?

Seconds. "Hooked on Phonics" changed my life. Try it.

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I have to disagree with the proposal to split this group, <snip                    …[I}  would miss many of 'characters' crochets by having to go back and forth between NG's. ...

In my experience, the interesting people continue to post to both groups (with some few exceptions.) It is easy enough to filter *for* these interesting people in your less-read group and just get headers for a quick scan of everything else. Mark me down for a rational split;   r.b.paddle.whitewater and optionally:  r.b.paddle.flatwater  r.b.paddle.misc (with r.b.paddle becoming a hierarchy-only) --   --Pete http://www.msen.com/~pwmeek/

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- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - John, Creating rec.boats.paddling.whitewater and leaving "everyone else" in R.B.P is probably a more viable solution. 1) It's less work than creating 3 new groups 2) It's less exclusive: ww postys would go to R.B.P.W and EVERYTHING else would go to R.B.P 3) The volumes would be "balanced" between the groups 4) There wouldn't be any arguments about where Sea Kayaks, S-O-T's, etc would go IMHO, The creation of a WW-only group is the "best" solution to this issue.

There is only one problem with this approach:  it won't work.  Since most of the whitewater folks don't mind the group as it is, they aren't going to put up the effort to "move" to a new group.  This is compounded by the folks who post only once every few months; they will continue to post to RBP for some time to come.  After this happens, WW people will crosspost to both groups (RBP and RBPW) to make sure that their messages get out to the intended audience. IMO, the only way that you will get some solitude is to create a new group. That way, you will leave the crowd behind (at least for a while). -- Steve Culy Visual Numerics, Inc.

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I have to disagree with the proposal to split this group, although I haven't kayaked in years, I do marathon canoe racing, flatwater to III trips and would love to do more sea kayaking.  I enjoy this group as it is, with the hot shot rodeo'ers and the skin boaters and would miss many of 'characters' crochets by having to go back and forth between NG's.  That is if can get the new NG.  I have never felt intimidated about posting marathon stuff here and have gotten some interesting and unexpected replies.  Even the blather about religion makes me think of compfire discussions and Jack Daniels.  I fear that some of the pressure to split is "sour grapes."                 Don, an RBP 'bobber'

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I encourage all interested parties to brainstorm for a renaming that would CORRECTLY describe the split.  An example might be rec.boats.paddle.whitewater rec.boats.paddle.flatwater or flatwater+touring or flatwater+tripping

Would the word  "flatwater" exclude canoe trips involving rapids?  I hope not. Would the word "touring" or "tripping" exclude flatwater paddlers who aren't into trips? Again, I hope not. Where do tripping rafters fit in? I agree that rec.boats.paddle.whitewater is a good name for paddlers who play in whitewater.  Is this likely though? Finally, let me say that I intend no criticism of Bob Solak. I think he's done a great thing by stepping up and actually doing the right thing, an RFD,

Yes. Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/clearstreets/358/index.html

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- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - I encourage all interested parties to brainstorm for a renaming that would CORRECTLY describe the split.  An example might be rec.boats.paddle.whitewater rec.boats.paddle.flatwater or flatwater+touring or flatwater+tripping Would the word  "flatwater" exclude canoe trips involving rapids?  I hope not. Would the word "touring" or "tripping" exclude flatwater paddlers who aren't into trips? Again, I hope not. Where do tripping rafters fit in? I agree that rec.boats.paddle.whitewater is a good name for paddlers who play in whitewater.  Is this likely though?

Good points. Also, where would surf boats fit in? The point is, is it REALLY taking people THAT long to scan thread titles? Let me time myself doing it right now....  OK, being honest now, it took me 20 seconds. Is that too big a burden to warrant splitting the groups off into discrete major chunks? If there are small special interest segments, the appropriate thing is to run a mailing list to meet those people needs. If you split the group roughly equally, all you are doing is saving, what, 10 of those 20 seconds that it took to scan thread titles? Again, this is just my opinion, but I don't think its worth it, in fact Ii fear it might actually be counter-productive when the inevitable cross postings start to occur leaving even more total thread titles to scan thru. regards, Njall regards, Njall

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The point is, is it REALLY taking people THAT long to scan thread titles? Let me time myself doing it right now....  OK, being honest now, it took me 20 seconds.

And how many threads were there for you to scan through? Maybe it isn't a problem for you, but we keep having paddlers say that they are leaving this newsgroup because of the volume of posts that don't interest them.  There's a problem somewhere or this wouldn't happen. Is that too big a burden to warrant splitting the groups off into discrete major chunks? If there are small special interest segments, the appropriate thing is to run a mailing list to meet those people needs.

I've been part of a few mailing lists.  I find them less convenient & less spontaneous than newsgroups.  Also, they aren't easily found by potential new members.  If a mailing list is okay with you, why not a new newsgroup? If you split the group roughly equally, all you are doing is saving, what, 10 of those 20 seconds that it took to scan thread titles? Again, this is just my opinion, but I don't think its worth it, in fact Ii fear it might actually be counter-productive when the inevitable cross postings start to occur leaving even more total thread titles to scan thru.

So you go from 20 to 30 or 40 seconds?  It will only affect those who want to read both groups, such as myself.  It will be much better for people with interest in only one group. Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/clearstreets/358/index.html

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I've been part of a few mailing lists.  I find them less convenient & less spontaneous than newsgroups.  Also, they aren't easily found by potential new members.  If a mailing list is okay with you, why not a new newsgroup?

Why? Because a mailing list, by nature, is intended to service a very small, very well defined topic group. A small mailing list would not create the cross-posting problems that 2 roughly equal in size and ILL-DEFINED newsgroups would. If you split the group roughly equally, all you are doing is saving, what, 10 of those 20 seconds that it took to scan thread titles? Again, this is just my opinion, but I don't think its worth it, in fact Ii fear it might actually be counter-productive when the inevitable cross postings start to occur leaving even more total thread titles to scan thru. So you go from 20 to 30 or 40 seconds?  It will only affect those who want to read both groups, such as myself.  It will be much better for people with interest in only one group.

Lloyd, thanks for acknowledging that due to cross-postings reading 2 newsgroups could take longer than reading the current rbp. One thing you didn't respond to though was my question, "Where would surf boating go?". It's an example of how ill-defined the proposed group is. Also, as a sea kayaker, i guarantee you that new people will think rec.boats.canoe is  NOT their newsgroup. Also, i notice that no one metions using kill files to screen title threads. Perhaps the real problem is that people need better newsreader software. If one filtered for about 5 river names, 5 boat brands and about 6 people's names I think about 85% of the whitewater posts could be screened out. regards, Njall

Response:

- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - I agree that rec.boats.paddle.whitewater is a good name for paddlers who play in whitewater.  Is this likely though? Lloyd, what do you think about REC.BOATS.PADDLE.NON-WHITEWATER While I like the idea of the ww folks moving to a group called rec.boats.paddle.whitewater better, I agree that this is highly unlikely. Seems to me that the NON-WW name would accomplish what we need, it would be self descriptive, clear and understandable.

One of the best ways to go about coming up with a name for a new newsgroup proposal is to look at the precedents that have already been set. One of conventions you'll find that is commonly used is the creation of a "misc" group.  For example, for basketball discussions there are: rec.sport.basketball.misc rec.sport.basketball.pro rec.sport.basketball.college The "pro" group is for discussion of professional teams, "college" for college teams and players, and "misc" for everything else. The rec.skating hierarchy is set up similarly. It has: rec.sport.skating.misc rec.sport.skating.roller rec.sport.skating.racing rec.sport.skating.ice.recreational rec.sport.skating.ice.figure rec.sport.skating.figure The skating groups are actually similar in structure to how paddling groups could be.  Both involve different types of equipment (ice, roller, inline) as well as different styles (racing, figure, recreational) and could use a catch all group (misc) for things that don't fit into a more strictly defined box. The rec.boats.canoeing proposal follows a structure more like the rec.outdoors.fishing fiasco.   At one time there wasn't a newsgroup devoted to fishing and alt.fishing was created.  A year or so later someone had the bright idea to create a fishing group in the the rec hierarchy and chose rec.outdoors.fishing as it's title. For many years the only group in the rec.outdoors hierarchy were the fishing groups and there was no corresponding rec.indoors group.  Groups like rec.climbing, rec.kites, rec.scuba, rec.skydiving; all recreational activites that take place in outdoors never made it into the rec.outdoors hierarchy. A few years ago I wrote and initiated an RFD for rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying.  Even though the act of tying flies doesn't typically take place in the outdoors I was more or less forced to put it under rec.outdoors.fishing.fly because that's where all of the flyfishing discussion took place. If we're going to split rec.boats.paddling (and rec.boats.canoing *is* a split despite the ambigous naming) the topic with the biggest chuck of traffic should be split off (whitewater) and a misc group created for everything else. For example, my proposal would be: rec.boats.paddling.whitewater rec.boats.paddling.flatwater rec.boats.paddling.misc even though I would still prefer that everything remains as it is, in one newsgroup. John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email - Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

Response:

So you go from 20 to 30 or 40 seconds?  It will only affect those who want to read both groups, such as myself.  It will be much better for people with interest in only one group. Lloyd, thanks for acknowledging that due to cross-postings reading 2 newsgroups could take longer than reading the current rbp.

If your newsreader is compliant to standard this is not true.  When an article is crossposted to more then one newsgroup it should only appear in the first one that you read if your newsreader is written correctly.  If you're seeing an article that has been crossposted in both groups twice there's something wrong with your newsreader. I don't think correctly crossposted articles is the problem though.  The problem is articles which are posted to the two different groups separately. The most frequent postings of these types are article which are off-topic for *both* groups (i.e. make money fast postings, commercial solicitations). If I am reading two separate groups instead of one it means I have to delete inappropriately posted articles twice. One of the other problems with crossposting is thread drift.  It often doesn't take more then a couple of responses from a thread that might have been appropriate in two separate groups to drift to a topic that is only appropriate in one.   One thing you didn't respond to though was my question, "Where would surf boating go?". It's an example of how ill-defined the proposed group is. Also, as a sea kayaker, i guarantee you that new people will think rec.boats.canoe is  NOT their newsgroup. Also, i notice that no one metions using kill files to screen title threads. Perhaps the real problem is that people need better newsreader software. If one filtered for about 5 river names, 5 boat brands and about 6 people's names I think about 85% of the whitewater posts could be screened out. regards, Njall

John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email - Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

Response:

I have a good isp? Woah! That's the first time anyone has said that to me.

Compared to mine. Mine misses about 75% of RBP posts. It is HELL to follow a discussion like that. You can complain about AOL -- hey, it's got to be better than that! But, the nearest place I can get to AOL is still a long-distance call for me. -- Wes -- Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email -- always at Talkway.

Response:

If a mailing list is okay with you, why not a new newsgroup? Because a newsgroup is about 100 times as resource intensive as a mailing list.

Did that whole discussion, sounds totally facetious to me. Does all rbp equal one gif? Also it was being used as an excuse to silence people. It was a lame and ugly thread.  Also, we keep getting posts that say "I left because of too many posts" which is sort like saying "nobody here but us chickens!" It seems like the people that have "left" are the ones reading the most intently! The people that *have* left (like Heimer) are the ones tired of the whining and complaining. There is something very very suspicious going on with the "I left" posts, and it certainly seems to have raised doubts in the minds of the many people who respond "How long does it really take to read the subjects?" gregg

Response:

- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - Good points. Also, where would surf boats fit in? The point is, is it REALLY taking people THAT long to scan thread titles? Let me time myself doing it right now....  OK, being honest now, it took me 20 seconds. Is that too big a burden to warrant splitting the groups off into discrete major chunks? If there You're lucky. You have a decent ISP. I have to use Talkways, because I have a lousy one, but it's the only one available through local dialup. It takes me an hour or more to go through RBP, post by post, because trying to do it by message headers is even slower. Since this is winter and I hate TV and the water is too hard for paddling, it doesn't matter, but as soon as things warm up a bit, I often won't have the time to dink around going through post after post, looking for the perhaps five percent that interest me. -- Wes

I have a good isp? Woah! That's the first time anyone has said that to me. regards, Njall

Response:

Also, we keep getting posts that say "I left because of too many posts" which is sort like saying "nobody here but us chickens!" It seems like the people that have "left" are the ones reading the most intently!

Um, Gregg, if they are reading all the posts then they must enjoy reading all the posts so volume isn't a problem. Volume is a problem when people are reading relatively FEW posts compared to the total. Think about it. The people that *have* left (like Heimer) are the ones tired of the whining and complaining.

Trust me, there will be plenty of whining and complaining in any new/split groups as well. So, that's irrelevant. There is something very very suspicious going on with the "I left" posts, and it certainly seems to have raised doubts in the minds of the many people who respond "How long does it really take to read the subjects?"

Huh? you lost me with this last part, what's the "suspicious" stuff that is "going on'? Gregg, I am just curious, how long does it take you to scan the thread titles? regards, Njall

Response:

Good points. Also, where would surf boats fit in? The point is, is it REALLY taking people THAT long to scan thread titles? Let me time myself doing it right now....  OK, being honest now, it took me 20 seconds. Is that too big a burden to warrant splitting the groups off into discrete major chunks?

How long would it take you to scan two newsgroups? 27 seconds maybe? The point behind all of this is to provide a forum for non-ww boaters to discuss non-ww topics. In an ideal world we would have a newsgroup dedicated to WW only, in which case all *other* forms of paddling would remain in R.B.P. This would prbably result in a good balance of posts between the groups. I have seen many posts roll of my server due to excessive volume on R.B.P - which is 2x rec.backcountry and 4-5x rec.boats.building on any given day. Nobody, as far as I'm concerned is advocating the fractionalization of RBP - just a logical division.

Response:

Good points. Also, where would surf boats fit in? The point is, is it REALLY taking people THAT long to scan thread titles? Let me time myself doing it right now....  OK, being honest now, it took me 20 seconds. Is that too big a burden to warrant splitting the groups off into discrete major chunks? If there

You're lucky. You have a decent ISP. I have to use Talkways, because I have a lousy one, but it's the only one available through local dialup. It takes me an hour or more to go through RBP, post by post, because trying to do it by message headers is even slower. Since this is winter and I hate TV and the water is too hard for paddling, it doesn't matter, but as soon as things warm up a bit, I often won't have the time to dink around going through post after post, looking for the perhaps five percent that interest me. -- Wes -- Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email -- always at Talkway.

Response:

If a mailing list is okay with you, why not a new newsgroup?

Because a newsgroup is about 100 times as resource intensive as a mailing list.  Each location it sends it to is less than a piece of e-mail, however there are 100,000 locations. Traditionally, the tradeoff was guestimated at around 100 members, however the internet (and usenet) has grown signifigantly since anyone looked at it, it's probably closer to 1000 now. Jay -- * Jay Denebeim  Moderator       rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated   *

Response:

what do you think about REC.BOATS.PADDLE.NON-WHITEWATER While I like the idea of the ww folks moving to a group called rec.boats.paddle.whitewater better, I agree that this is highly unlikely.

This name may be seen as excluding canoe trip reports or route descriptions that have whitewater as a minor element. Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/clearstreets/358/index.html

Response:

I agree that rec.boats.paddle.whitewater is a good name for paddlers who play in whitewater.  Is this likely though?

Lloyd, what do you think about REC.BOATS.PADDLE.NON-WHITEWATER While I like the idea of the ww folks moving to a group called rec.boats.paddle.whitewater better, I agree that this is highly unlikely. Seems to me that the NON-WW name would accomplish what we need, it would be self descriptive, clear and understandable. Chuck

Response:

                     REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)                  unmoderated group rec.boats.canoeing This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the creation of a world-wide unmoderated Usenet newsgroup rec.boats.canoeing.  This is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time.  Procedural details are below. Newsgroup line: rec.boats.canoeing      Discussions related to flatwater canoeing. RATIONALE: rec.boats.canoeing Discussion of flatwater canoeing, canoes, and canoe tripping constitutes a minority of the traffic on rec.boats.paddle.  A brief, and admittedly unscientific sampling of the traffic on rec.boats.paddle yielded the following results: 8% of posts were applicable to flatwater canoeing, 8% *might* be of interest to a flatwater canoeist, and 84% of posts dealt with white-water kayaking. Precise percentages are not important, rather, these numbers are presented as a snapshot of a typical day of posts. At a conservative rate of 200 posts per day, a strictly flatwater canoeist would need to sort out 164 posts that he/she considers irrelavent. A rec.boats.canoeing newsgroup would provide an alternative group that strictly flatwater canoeists could subscribe to without the nuisance of sorting inapplicable headers. There have been lengthy discussions in the past on rec.boats.paddle about splitting the newsgroup.  They have frequently ended with no RFD being written.  This proposed group is not intended to split the newsgroup.  Rather, it simply provides a place for flatwater canoeing discussion.  Paddlers who enjoy both flatwater and whitewater paddling will benefit from the ability to direct specific comments and questions toward a more focused group. CHARTER: rec.boats.canoeing Appropriate topics for rec.boats.canoeing include questions and comments about canoes, canoe accesories, canoeing technique, flatwater canoeing locations/routes, canoe camping, canoe tripping, and other flatwater canoeing related topics.  Discussion about whitewater canoeing is not prohibited, but posters should be aware that their comments and questions would generate higher quality responses in the rec.boats.paddle newsgroup.  For Sale and Wanted to Buy posts should be preceded by a [FS] or [WTB] flag in the subject header.  Retailers of both used and new boats/gear should provide links to their webpages or e-mail addresses rather than post lists of available boats/gear. Retailers should also limit such posts to a total of 1 per month or less. END CHARTER. PROCEDURE: This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes.  In this phase of the process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroups should be raised and resolved.  The discussion period will continue for a minimum of 21 days (starting from when the first RFD for this proposal is posted to news.announce.newgroups), after which a Call For Votes (CFV) may be posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion warrants it.  Please do not attempt to vote until this happens. All discussion of this proposal should be posted to news.groups. This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet newsgroup creation guidelines outlined in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup" and "How to Format and Submit a New Group Proposal".  Please refer to these documents (available in news.announce.newgroups) if you have any questions about the process. DISTRIBUTION: This RFD has been posted to the following newsgroups:   news.announce.newgroups news.groups   rec.boats.paddle rec.backcountry rec.boats.building rec.boats.racing   (mailing list, see canoecountry.com for info)

Response:

Note followup-to is news.groups!!! Summary:  This RFD would create a confusing namespace and would not solve the problem leading to the RFD.  While I understand and sympathize with the wishes of the flatwater minority on RBP, this RFD will only confuse the issue.         rec.boats.canoeing has been proposed as a place for the non-whitewater interests of rec.boats.paddle to use, as a solution for the problems with whitewater traffic drowning out non-whitewater traffic on rec.boats.paddle.  But the name is not descriptive, for the following reasons: 1) Some non-negligible percentage of the whitewater posters on rec.boats.paddle paddle canoes, not kayaks. 2) rec.boats.canoeing does not accurately cover the sea kayaking, kayak touring and kayak tripping interests that should also be covered by this split/newgroup. 3) In American English, a "canoe" is a boat paddled with a one-bladed paddle.  In British English, the word "canoe" covers both one-bladed and two-bladed craft; in short, what Yanks call a Kayak, Brits call a Canoe.         For these reasons, the hierarchy that would result from this proposal passing would result in two groups whose names do not describe the traffic they are supposed to be carrying.  The result of this vote passing would be "rec.boats.paddle" for whitewater interests and "rec.boats.canoeing" for flatwater/touring interests.  Can anyone honestly say that they figured that out from the names?         I cannot vote for this proposal as written, and I encourage all concerned parties to honestly ask themselves if they can.  There is a serious danger here that there are many frustrated flatwater boaters willing to vote for anything that will get them out of rec.boats.paddle’s traffic.  But a poor solution is worse than no solution in the long run, and this solution will only result in confusion.         I encourage all interested parties to brainstorm for a renaming that would CORRECTLY describe the split.  An example might be rec.boats.paddle.whitewater rec.boats.paddle.flatwater or flatwater+touring or flatwater+tripping         Please, people, we’ll have to live with this vote for a long time.  Don’t screw up everybody because it’s easier to vote for the first solution offered rather than wait for the right solution.         Finally, let me say that I intend no criticism of Bob Solak. I think he’s done a great thing by stepping up and actually doing the right thing, an RFD, as opposed to countless others who think that groups are formed by a quorum of whining.  I just disagree with the name chosen for the new group.  1.01 GCS/GO d++ p+ c++ l++ u++ e+ -m+ s++/- n- h !(f)? g+ -w+ t+ r– y?  "I want to permeate the air you breathe/slide my way under your skin/place myself behind your eyes/and watch you, watch me, looking in." Katell Keineg

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Question:

Hi folks, I’m new to the group, and would like your thoughts on what is the best kayak for fly fishing coastal bays and flats.  I normally fly fish in Christmas Bay (close to Galveston, TX), and use a Zest Two – Ocean Kayak two seater.  It’s kinda tough to handle in a breeze over, say, 10 kts. I’m in the market for a faster boat that will handle higher wind conditions, and would like some input from those more knowledgable than I. Howard About Christmas Bay – http://www.christmasbay.com

Response:

  Hi, the boat of choice here in San Diego for fishing seems to be the Scupper Pro,and Scupper Classic. I own the classic , it weighs48pds. compared to your68pd. zest. The pros weigh 55pds.      I’m able to troll effectivly even when the wind picks up, if the wind picks up while jig fishing or while i’m after halibut i use my sea anchor to slow my drift     Aqua

Response:

I’m new to the group, and would like your thoughts on what is the best kayak for fly fishing coastal bays and flats.  I normally fly fish in Christmas Bay (close to Galveston, TX), and use a Zest Two – Ocean Kayak two seater.  It’s kinda tough to handle in a breeze over, say, 10 kts. I’m in the market for a faster boat that will handle higher wind conditions, and would like some input from those more knowledgable than I.

I’m also a newbie to this thing, but I’ve got a few opinions anyway…  [had my boat for a couple months so far] I know most folks will suggest an open cockpit boat, but don’t write off an enclosed version.   Also, I know most folks tend to prefer getting out of the boat and wade, but I’m not one of them.  I like to start more or less dry, and end more or less dry. I have very little difficulty casting my 8 weight while seated in my kayak. [Dagger Edisto].   But there is also enough deck rigging to support a decent trolling setup, and there was enough mounting and cargo room for me to add an all-around light to help with safe night fishing and transits to duck hunting spots next season.. If you are annoyed by high winds and waves, get a rudder. The difference is mind bogolling. My modest experiences so far: http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html

Response:

If you are annoyed by high winds and waves, get a rudder. The difference is mind bogolling. My modest experiences so far: http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html

If I get out I may use a fly rod on the flats, but I have had more luck trolling from my kayak.  I dont know if its the speed or that the boat makes the fish notice my fly or lure but the success rate is pretty good for both bass and blues.  I use a kevlar kayak and a rudder to make the experience "less painful".  I also gave up using a rod from my boat.  I made a hand line device that is very easy to use.  To see one visit my site at:  http://www.jlc.net/~hlevin I usually troll rapalas, rubber eels a fly or other artifical baits. —     Hal     Wilton, NH     Power your boat with carbohydrates,     not hydrocarbons.           http://www.jlc.net/~hlevin                 0                  _O                     0

Response:

If I get out I may use a fly rod on the flats, but I have had more luck trolling from my kayak.  I dont know if its the speed or that the boat

I do good trolling as well. experience "less painful".  I also gave up using a rod from my boat.  I made a hand line device that is very easy to use.  To see one visit my

Give up my rod and reel?  I have a rod holder angled 45 degrees backward, a bit behind the cockpit.  I can paddle (troll) at any speed without interference.  That reminds me…i was trolling at work yesterday..woops!

Response:

Question:

We’re planning a trip to St. Barth’s in May and wondered about the fly fishing possibilities.  Any suggestions, anyone?

Response:

whenever i travelled to the caribbean i would bring along the spinning gear (now into flyfishing)…. i caught baby tarpon on st.maarten and ventured over to st.barts….i didnt have too much luck there but heard from some people there that there are tarpon there at the right time of year…whenever that is…so i assume the other normal fishing will apply….ie. barracuda and bonefish etc…i think it would be worth the effort….let me know how you do ok   frank in brrrboston

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Question:

– Now booking Cape Cod, MA inshore fly fishing wading trips for stripers for the 97 season. I supply all tackle and flies as well as casting instructions if needed. If you don’t score stripers, I don’t get paid. Fair enough? $125/single $200/two anglers for a full day wading trip. Email me http://www.flyfishing-the-salt.com. Email references given upon request. Good fishing…Ted Bobetsky

Response:

– Now booking Cape Cod, MA inshore fly fishing wading trips for stripers for the 97 season. I supply all tackle and flies as well as casting instructions if needed. If you don’t score stripers, I don’t get paid. Fair enough? $125/single $200/two anglers for a full day wading trip. Email me http://www.flyfishing-the-salt.com. Good fishing…Ted Bobetsky

Response:

Question:

I will be going to Kenya on business  next month,  for about 3 weeks. I understand fly fishing is great there. Does anyone know what fish and what patterns are popular there? For  that matter, does anyone know what AREAS and RIVERS? Thanks in advance. Mike

Response:

I will be going to Kenya on business  next month,  for about 3 weeks. I understand fly fishing is great there. Does anyone know what fish and what patterns are popular there? For  that matter, does anyone know what AREAS and RIVERS?

Aberdare Highlands (formerly "white highlands") north and west of Nairobi.  Be warned (by Canadian papers) law and order may have vanished in some parts of Kenya these days. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

Response:

Question:

Quick suggestions needed!   I have an avid FF friend with a mid-January birthday. I know he currently doesn’t subscribe to any FF magazines, so I’d like to get him a subscription to one.  I’ve seen 3 or 4 different FF magizines in popular bookstores. Any one of these magazines recognized as the clear leader?  Which magazine would you suggest?                                                - Ken –

Response:

I have an avid FF friend with a mid-January birthday. I know he currently doesn’t subscribe to any FF magazines, so I’d like to get him a subscription to one.  I’ve seen 3 or 4 different FF magizines in popular bookstores.

Flyfisherman has been aroung a long time. It has become extremely commercialized and retail oriented over the years (or I have gotten more cynical about the business end of this "hobby") but may be good reading for anyone new to the sport. Another Mag with a provocative conservation slant (and equally commercial) is Fly Rod and Reel.  This would be a good choice for the fishing activist. If your friend lives towards the West Coast, "Flyfishing" would be a wise choice. It too has some hard hitting consevation type articles and a orientation towards the West Coast Fisheries.  If your friend is a fly tyer the "American Angler"  (formerly The American Fly Tyer") might be a worth considering.  All in all, I wouldn’t consider one a clear cut winner over the other, just they are all different. Good Luck on your selection Mark Powers Boston

Response:

: Any one of these magazines recognized as the clear leader?  Which : magazine would you suggest? I am acquainted with "Flyfisherman", "Flyfishing" and "The River Journal" I thoroughly enjoy Flyfisherman. It is an excellent magazine, very well done, with articles for the beginner (like myself) and the advanced fly fisherperson. It covers trout, salmon and salt water. Not much on other species as I remember. It has a very nice mix of articles on technique, fly tying and where to go. I subscribed to Flyfishing magazine but did not renew my subscription. Its coverage was quite similar to Flyfisherman, but I thought its editorial quality was rather poor. Some articles were riddled with misspellings, etc. In this day of electronic publishing there is no excuse for this. Both Flyfishing and The River Journal are done by Frank Amato publications. The River Journal, compared to Flyfishing, is very high quality. It is published four times per year. Each issue is written by a single author, and is devoted to a single river. It describes in some detail what the river is like, access, the fishing, the area around the river. It gives quite a good feel for what to expect when you actually go there. My recommendation would be for Flyfisherman.                                                         — al — |    UNISYS – Open System Products      Phone:  612-635-7240            | |    Roseville,MN                       FAX:    612-635-3899            |

Response:

        I think the year end blitz of junk-mail is attributable to the postal rate increase, more than anything else.  Actually, junk-mail mailings occur throughout the year – and I’ll bet that a number of companies decided to move up their mailing schedule to save some money.         As for lists – it has long been established practice for magazines to sell lists of their subscribers’ names and addresses (I think the going rate nowadays is about 8 cents per name).  They also buy their competition’s lists (finding new subscribers is difficult!).  If you’re starting a new business, it is one way to inexpensively target a niche market).  I’m not sure anything can be done about it from the recipient’s end – stop subscribing?  Stop buying?  But I do like the idea of changing your name slightly each time.  Oh, and I NEVER give out demographic information (except to the IRS). Cheers, – Jeff

Response:

   I think the year end blitz of junk-mail is attributable to the postal rate increase, more than anything else.  Actually, junk-mail mailings occur throughout the year – and I’ll bet that a number of companies decided to move up their mailing schedule to save some money.

Junk mail is a part of our culture.  Like it or not! I think I would rather live in a country effluent enough to support a healthy junk mail industry.   I don’t believe I said that?  :-) Effuent enough and doing it are two differant things.  MO is an important way of doing business.  Many things I own are not available in stores within a couple hundred miles. If available at all. George

Response:

[omissions] I think I would rather live in a country effluent enough to support a healthy junk mail industry.   I don’t believe I said that?  :-) Effuent enough and doing it are two differant things.  MO is an important way of doing business.  Many things I own are not available in stores within a couple hundred miles. If available at all.

I wouldn’t like to suggest you folks are river-fixated or anything, but the term is "affluent." "Effluent" is "to flow out" or "something that flows out," as an outflowing branch of a main stream, or waste material, as smoke or sewage. "Affluent" also means "to flow abundantly," but has the additional meaning of "abundance of property." — Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Disclaimer: Over 30 and born in Fredericton, NB

Response:

I’ve given my address out to that had anything to do with flyfishing except one place.  A few weeks ago someone was offering a free catalog or something here.  I sent my email address and so far haven’t seen anything but I’m wondering if that was just a scam to sell a mailing list.  Has anyone else here all of a sudden started getting flyfishing related mail?

To who ever wrote the above: That was not a scam!  Your request is sitting in this office about 8 feet from the computer in a pile waiting to see how many respond to publish a free news letter.   Your name will not be sold or given away to anyone.   I will tell you an old trick I have been doing for years.  Key to replies. Advertisers key their ads.  Why not key your replies. Several years ago I send in a warranty card, you know the type, the ones who ask a lot of questions about your demographics.   Well I told them I was makeing over $200000 a year.   Hell you would have thought I was having a paper drive in my front yard.  I bought a Coleman stove.  Everybody flooded me and still are.  Two churches wanted me to join.  Funny thing, they wrote be a letter with my middle name as C.   C. for Colman.  :-) Did you folks by something for Christmas fishing related and sent in a warranty card? Not a scam, George – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Paul DiConza NY Capital District Angler

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve given my address out to that had anything to do with flyfishing except one place.  A few weeks ago someone was offering a free catalog or something here.  I sent my email address and so far haven’t seen anything but I’m wondering if that was just a scam to sell a mailing list.  Has anyone else here all of a sudden started getting flyfishing related mail? To who ever wrote the above: That was not a scam!  Your request is sitting in this office about 8 feet from the computer in a pile waiting to see how many respond to publish a free news letter.   Your name will not be sold or given away to anyone.   I will tell you an old trick I have been doing for years.  Key to replies. Advertisers key their ads.  Why not key your replies. Several years ago I send in a warranty card, you know the type, the ones who ask a lot of questions about your demographics.   Well I told them I was makeing over $200000 a year.   Hell you would have thought I was having a paper drive in my front yard.  I bought a Coleman stove.  Everybody flooded me and still are.  Two churches wanted me to join.  Funny thing, they wrote be a letter with my middle name as C.   C. for Colman.  :-) Did you folks by something for Christmas fishing related and sent in a warranty card? Not a scam, George

Well very interesting.  I checked my list of everyone who sent in a request and non of you folks are on my list.   So god knows what happened to the names you sent to whomever.   Anyway if any of you want a free newsletter.  Send in you name and address for postal delivery.  That the only way we can send it out to you.   Some of the sponsors want to send free samples so can’t do it electronically.  It would be like Pizza Hut faxing you your pizza.  :-)  The technology is just not here yet.   For be it from me to turn down a box of hooks or what every. Later, George,

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…. If your friend lives towards the West Coast, "Flyfishing" would be a wise choice.

Another interesting publication is "California Fly Fisher."  Although the editorial slant is California fishing and fisheries, it also has a number of general interest articles, and the writing so far has consistantly been of high quality.  If interested, you might give them a call at 415-284-0313.  I don’t know if they send out sample copies, but its worth a try. Cheers, – Jeff

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Make no mistake, folks: Mailing lists are hot items out there. In the course of starting up 8-Wt Journal, obviously we had to compile a mailing list (especially after offering free sample issues through the net here). I’ve got about ten years in the publishing business behind me, but even I was surprised at how, when I contacted other flyfishing publications regarding reviews, space ads and so forth, at how most wanted copies of our list. Having been subjected to mail list abuse myself in the past, we declined all offers (and intend to continue this practice). But for many operators of all stripes–from tackle and fly shops who just have a local mailing list to big-name equipment makers, selling mail/customer lists is considered just one more revenue enhancer. JL 8-Wt Editor

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Coincidently, I just got the sales pitch letter for a subscription to Fly Rod & Reel this morning in the mail.  I had never seen the magazine before.  Coincidently, I got a "free-trial subscription" letter from Flyfisherman and "American Angler" a couple of days before.  I also got a catalog for JW Outfitters. It’s been a few months since I put my name on a mailing list at the local fly shop and I can’t think of any place else that I’ve given my address out to that had anything to do with flyfishing except one place.  A few weeks ago someone was offering a free catalog or something here.  I sent my email address and so far haven’t seen anything but I’m wondering if that was just a scam to sell a mailing list.  Has anyone else here all of a sudden started getting flyfishing related mail?

Yeah, all at the same time from American Angler, Flyfisherman, and Fly Rod & Reel.  I’m on a number of lists, though, since I have recently bought stuff from Orvis, The Bass Pond, and Cabela’s.   Just a consumer tip:  I subscribed to American Angler this past year for about 15 bucks.  I found it to be excellent especially for tying tips. Then they wanted me to renew for 20 bucks, but I thought I could do better so I ignored their repeated pleas and let the subscription run out.  Sure enough, on ESPN Outdoors Saturday morning I saw a toll-free number to subscribe to AA for 15 bucks…BUT before I got around to calling, I got all these freebie notices, including one from AA!  So I’ll get a free issue, plus a low rate for the other 5 issues.  With the money I saved, I’m going to buy all of the Paradise Valley spring creeks…  ;) Paul DiConza NY Capital District Angler

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My recommendation would be for Flyfisherman. I second the recommendation, and for a publication with an in-your-face conservation slant, try Fly Rod & Reel.

Coincidently, I just got the sales pitch letter for a subscription to Fly Rod & Reel this morning in the mail.  I had never seen the magazine before.  Coincidently, I got a "free-trial subscription" letter from Flyfisherman and "American Angler" a couple of days before.  I also got a catalog for JW Outfitters.  Before I digress, because I plan to, "American Angler" is also a very good magazine for flyfishing.  For those that tie their own flies I would recommend it highly over Flyfisherman.  This topic has come up many times before and I’ve always highly recommended "California FlyFisher".  Everytime I do I get email asking for the subscription address, so here it is: California FlyFisher PO Box 40429 San Francisco, CA 94140 (415) 284-0313 Back to my digression.  It’s been a few months since I put my name on a mailing list at the local fly shop and I can’t think of any place else that I’ve given my address out to that had anything to do with flyfishing except one place.  A few weeks ago someone was offering a free catalog or something here.  I sent my email address and so far haven’t seen anything but I’m wondering if that was just a scam to sell a mailing list.  Has anyone else here all of a sudden started getting flyfishing related mail? — John Fereira "Guru of Miscellany" Pleasanton, CA "Ask me about my vow of silence."

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…deleted material…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Coincidently, I just got the sales pitch letter for a subscription to Fly Rod & Reel this morning in the mail.  I had never seen the magazine before.  Coincidently, I got a "free-trial subscription" letter from Flyfisherman and "American Angler" a couple of days before.  I also got a catalog for JW Outfitters. …deleted material…. ….  It’s been a few months since I put my name on a mailing list at the local fly shop and I can’t think of any place else that I’ve given my address out to that had anything to do with flyfishing except one place.  A few weeks ago someone was offering a free catalog or something here.  I sent my email address and so far haven’t seen anything but I’m wondering if that was just a scam to sell a mailing list.  Has anyone else here all of a sudden started getting flyfishing related mail? — John Fereira "Guru of Miscellany" Pleasanton, CA "Ask me about my vow of silence."

I also recently received all "Free trial subscription" offers from the above three fly fishing publications. (less the California one).  And I also sent my address in on the catalog/free issue offer on the list… hmmmm…… Provo, Utah

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: Any one of these magazines recognized as the clear leader?  Which : magazine would you suggest? I subscribed to Flyfishing magazine but did not renew my subscription. Its coverage was quite similar to Flyfisherman, but I thought its editorial quality was rather poor. Some articles were riddled with misspellings, etc. In this day of electronic publishing there is no excuse for this.

I bought the latest issue of Flyfishing because, frankly, it had a fish on the cover. I was extremely disappointed with the content. I found it to be flagrantly self-promoting (of Frank Amato publications), spelling and grammar errors galore, and the ad for "The Miracle of the Eucharist" or whatever in the midst of ad copy for fishing literature annoyingly incongruent. My recommendation would be for Flyfisherman.

I second the recommendation, and for a publication with an in-your-face conservation slant, try Fly Rod & Reel.                                                         — al — |    UNISYS – Open System Products Phone:  612-635-7240            | |    Roseville,MN                  FAX:    612-635-3899            |

– Dave Ridge Storage Technology Corp

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