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Question:

Try building an order entry system for a large telco with a unionized work force. The union threatens to sue the company over the fonts and says the system is too easy to use, thereby threatening the jobs of the current call center workers because they "could" "conceivalby" be replaced by lower paid workers who don’t require the *13 weeks* of training that the old sytem required. This was a few jobs ago

Sheesh… you came just in time. I was about to crack open a roll of foil On a positive note, I get back-to-back to business trips to San Diego and Las Vegas. So hopefully I can break out of the Northern VA winter doldrums and get in five or six rounds of golf.

Oh, man, then what do you have to complain about? You have it pretty darn good, if you ask me.

Response:

Try building an order entry system for a large telco with a unionized work force. The union threatens to sue the company over the fonts and says the system is too easy to use, thereby threatening the jobs of the current call center workers because they "could" "conceivalby" be replaced by lower paid workers who don’t require the *13 weeks* of training that the old sytem required. This was a few jobs ago On a positive note, I get back-to-back to business trips to San Diego and Las Vegas. So hopefully I can break out of the Northern VA winter doldrums and get in five or six rounds of golf. Tim T – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Final word "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval. "I had a better time fly fishing in Montana for 10 days than I had all year programming." — Jeff Connelly Try developing intranet portals for HR/Payroll departments in corporations all year. They complain about the type and the color of fonts you used. Oh, and "the background color for the menus is not pleasing to the eye". I’d have a better time chewing on aluminum foil while staring at a wall for a week. And at least you "program". I feel more like a glorified website designer.

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Maybe he should stop using the Momentus Training Club….

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Final word "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval.

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– "

— "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval. How much money did he earn snowboarding? Given his bank account, how much did he _need_ to earn? The statement was about having fun, not earning money.

I imagine most people would say they have more fun at play rather than work. I just don’t have much sympathy for him. He’s playing golf for a living for God’s sake. How much better can it get. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bruce E. Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb info at benewman dot bizland dot com * http://go.to/bruce_newman

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Final word "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval. "I had a better time fly fishing in Montana for 10 days than I had all year programming." — Jeff Connelly

Try developing intranet portals for HR/Payroll departments in corporations all year. They complain about the type and the color of fonts you used. Oh, and "the background color for the menus is not pleasing to the eye". I’d have a better time chewing on aluminum foil while staring at a wall for a week. And at least you "program". I feel more like a glorified website designer.

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"I had a better time fly fishing in Montana for 10 days than I had all year programming." — Jeff Connelly

Sorry Jeff, but now heaven will be a let down. Cheers, Mike

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says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The trick is to have fun _and_ earn money. At the GHO last summer, I followed Duval’s group for a while. He was laboring his way through the round, looking like he was having a miserable time out there on his way to missing the cut. It was a depressing sight. Contrast that with Fred Funk, who was seen several times on TV last season, having fun, playing well, and making plenty of money. That’s the way to go. Does good play lead to a positive attitude, or vice versa? That conundrum is one of the things that makes golf such a great game. I agree – but Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods don’t appear to be at the top of the "having fun" scale while playing.

Appearances can be deceiving… Both Jack and Tiger really enjoy what they’re doing… The fact that they’re quieter or more reserved than other competitors doesn’t mean aren’t having fun. — Cheers- Jeff Setaro http://people.mags.net/jasetaro/ PGP Key IDs DH/DSS: 0×5D41429D RSA: 0×599D2A99 New RSA: 0xA19EBD34

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I agree – but Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods don’t appear to be at the top of the "having fun" scale while playing. Appearances can be deceiving… Both Jack and Tiger really enjoy what they’re doing… The fact that they’re quieter or more reserved than other competitors doesn’t mean aren’t having fun.

Although Jack has admitted to not enjoying the game as much as his competitors back in his younger days. Still, as a spectator, I enjoy watching performers who seem to be enjoying themselves. This applies at all levels, ages; in sports, and other show biz.

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The trick is to have fun _and_ earn money. At the GHO last summer, I followed Duval’s group for a while. He was laboring his way through the round, looking like he was having a miserable time out there on his way to missing the cut. It was a depressing sight. Contrast that with Fred Funk, who was seen several times on TV last season, having fun, playing well, and making plenty of money. That’s the way to go. Does good play lead to a positive attitude, or vice versa? That conundrum is one of the things that makes golf such a great game.

I agree – but Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods don’t appear to be at the top of the "having fun" scale while playing.

Response:

— "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval. How much money did he earn snowboarding? Given his bank account, how much did he _need_ to earn? The statement was about having fun, not earning money.

The trick is to have fun _and_ earn money. At the GHO last summer, I followed Duval’s group for a while. He was laboring his way through the round, looking like he was having a miserable time out there on his way to missing the cut. It was a depressing sight. Contrast that with Fred Funk, who was seen several times on TV last season, having fun, playing well, and making plenty of money. That’s the way to go. Does good play lead to a positive attitude, or vice versa? That conundrum is one of the things that makes golf such a great game. – cja

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Final word "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval. "I had a better time fly fishing in Montana for 10 days than I had all year programming." — Jeff Connelly

Ah, but what if they paid your to fly fish? You might loose your enthusiasm for it. (p.s. I don’t know who *they* are or I’d have that job already)

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Final word "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval.

"I had a better time fly fishing in Montana for 10 days than I had all year programming." — Jeff Connelly

Response:

Final word "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval.

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Final word "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval.

I think he said pretty much the same thing last year. Probably explains his season. — Dan Driscoll Charter Member Super Secret Sinister Golf Society (SSSGS)

Response:

– "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval.

How much money did he earn snowboarding?

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— "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval. How much money did he earn snowboarding?

Given his bank account, how much did he _need_ to earn? The statement was about having fun, not earning money. Bruce Bruce E. Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb info at benewman dot bizland dot com * http://go.to/bruce_newman

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Question:

I use a Madriver Tahoe(14Ft). Weighs 52 pounds-easy enough to handle by myself. This is a recreational canoe-wide,and with good primary stability- really good for trips with small children and dogs.

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can somebody recomend a good canoe 12′-15′ long and really light under $600 primarily used for fishing thanks chris

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can somebody recomend a good canoe 12′-15′ long and really light under $600 primarily used for fishing thanks chris

Chris, You want some initial stability…to give you that casting platform. I’d go with a light kevlar or some kind of composite in a wide hull. I love dynamically designed hulls, but I just haven’t paddled anything lightweight in a medium to narrow width with the secondary stability that’s necessary to avoid hair-raising adventures with any sudden movements or just wind. Kevlar, or anything else that would be light is just not cheap_$$$, I’d go the USED route. Be energetic in your search…and you should find something via the web. $.02, Steve

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can somebody recomend a good canoe 12′-15′ long and really light under $600 primarily used for fishing thanks chris

I use an Old Town Pack, 12 foot long, 33 pounds, on lakes and slow rivers. New they are near $600, but I got mine used for <$300, including a lovely bent shaft paddle. I have not had a problem with primary or secondary stability for fishing (YMMV). I use it for both casting and trolling, while my husband has used it for flyfishing (but not as successfully). I have found that me, 6 Ft or shorter rods work best in small canoes or kayaks. Get a nice anchor and a brush anchor too. Enjoy. Pam in Iowa

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Question:

Ken Fortenberry: You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama. After watching the Whidby Naval Air reunion, let me be the first to say, Ken, bleed out your ears *and* eyes. God Bless America, the U.S. Navy and our brave men and women who enable you to be such an insufferable intolerant little prick.

of course, you don’t live in washington state and have to watch the local s(news)…. this is all we’ve been hearing about and what we’ll be hearing about til the next disaster <G. i’m glad they’re back…. but i’d like to see the media give them a little bit of a break so they can have some real private time with their families and loved ones. chris

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Dave, not trying to judge your age here, but by any chance were you one of those guys that got out of the draft during vietnam? I only say this because you seem to have such disdain for the military. I think I understand your disgust with the overdramatization in which military people attribute to their jobs….I did a 6 year stint in the Navy myself, and enjoyed it, but I find that too often fellow vets are just too quick to point out the fact that they served. It’s almost like they’re rubbing it in others’ faces. I have followed the plight of the aircrew held in China with some interest. I feel that the government/military is making way too big a deal of this, for publicity’s sake, than should be. All that said…I do respect the simple fact that being hel captive in a foreign communist country, no matter what the accomodations (in this case very plush) and treatment, would be a scary and dangerous situation to be in (history tells us this). For that, sure, let’s have a parade and welcome these folks home (especially if they were able to destroy any sensitive equipment on that plane before it went down).

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ken Fortenberry: You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama. After watching the Whidby Naval Air reunion, let me be the first to say, Ken, bleed out your ears *and* eyes. God Bless America, the U.S. Navy and our brave men and women who enable you to be such an insufferable intolerant little prick. Dave Dave

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Dave, not trying to judge your age here, but by any chance were you one of those guys that got out of the draft during vietnam?

Uhh, Mark, Dave is a retired Navy Chief, a career military man who is justifiably proud of his service. Ken is the one who wrote the anti military diatribe. You really need to follow these threads a little more carefully before replying, or else get some asbestos skivvies to protect you from the flames. Just a little friendly advice. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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Ahhh…my apologies for my mistaken left-click, especially to Dave.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dave, not trying to judge your age here, but by any chance were you one of those guys that got out of the draft during vietnam? Uhh, Mark, Dave is a retired Navy Chief, a career military man who is justifiably proud of his service. Ken is the one who wrote the anti military diatribe. You really need to follow these threads a little more carefully before replying, or else get some asbestos skivvies to protect you from the flames. Just a little friendly advice. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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Dave, not trying to judge your age here, but by any chance were you one of those guys that got out of the draft during vietnam? I only say this because you seem to have such disdain for the military.

Wow, whatever you are smokin is worth every damn nickel you paid! Wolfgang and doubtless dave would love to share it :)

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… This is a welcome home for a group of Americans …

And much ado about nothing in my book. … He, like many of us, were expressing a collective sigh of relief, that these men and women returned home to the ruffles and flourishes of the National Anthem and not the saddening strains of Taps. Frank Reid, MSgt, USAF (Ret)

He and many of you can express your collective sighs elsewhere as far as I’m concerned, Frank. And I’m not impressed by alphabet soup after a man’s name. My younger brother was in the Marine Corps for twenty years, I’m not completely unfamiliar with things military. The military is a necessary evil not a sacred cow and I’m far more impressed with the guy who teaches inner city kids to read than I am with the guy flying spy planes off the coast of China. — Ken Fortenberry

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Ken, How ’bout teaching English and math to kids inter-battle zone in Bosnia, where there is a cleared path in the minefield to get to the old warehouse to teach? How ’bout doing this for free? How ’bout whole National Guard units that volunteer as a group to drop their jobs and run off to Central America to spend their days humpin sacks of flour to help hurricane victims? How ’bout spending four nights a week and all day Saturday teaching English, math and biology to Korean orphans who are ostracized because they don’t have parents? The tutors won’t help, the city won’t help, their own teachers won’t help. Again, done free, for a year, gratis. Person’s boss didn’t even know about it. These are anecdotal. They are all true. They are all military members. The U.S. military is second only to firefighters in time spent doing volunteer work. In a lot of towns, those firefighters are military. You profess to understand the military. I won’t gainsay that. Why do you join an organization of computer proffesionals? Could it be that you identify with those who share your understanding of nibbles and bytes? We, those former military members, identify with the sacrifices that those currently in the military endure. The funny thing about military folks is that they often blend in with the scenery. The are members of ACM, ROFF, but they still identify with their common core of experience in the military. MSgt Ret is alphabet soup. However, I only used it since you used ACM. Glass houses my friend. You, as computer professional, should understand that the U.S. military is not a necessary evil. It is also not a sacred cow. It is not that one-dimensional. However, to trivialize 2.6 million folks to the status of necessary evil is, in and of itself, pretty one dimensional. It is a group of folks as important as your local fire and police department. Wherever they go, they try to do some good. It’s their nature. They, as a group, will all tell you that they abhor the combat side of their jobs, because, to them, if they have to fight, they’ve failed at peace keeping. I tell you what, take a group of military folks and ask them to raise their hands if they’ve ever fired a weapon in combat. Very few hands. Now ask them if they’ve done 10 or more hours of volunteer work in the last 2 months. Now ask your computer professional friends if they’ve done 10 or more hours of volunteer work in the last two months. Hey, it takes a village. Some of us, i.e. the military have lived in that village all our lives, where others are wandering around screaming that some one should build them one. Frank Reid – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He and many of you can express your collective sighs elsewhere as far as I’m concerned, Frank. And I’m not impressed by alphabet soup after a man’s name. My younger brother was in the Marine Corps for twenty years, I’m not completely unfamiliar with things military. The military is a necessary evil not a sacred cow and I’m far more impressed with the guy who teaches inner city kids to read than I am with the guy flying spy planes off the coast of China. — Ken Fortenberry

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… These are anecdotal. They are all true. They are all military members.

And two members of the US military raped a 12 year old Japanese schoolgirl. Pretty useless to trade these examples, I’ll concede that there are both really nice folks and some of the scum of the earth serving in the military. … MSgt Ret is alphabet soup. However, I only used it since you used ACM. Glass houses my friend.

include their email address in their .sig, but if you find it untoward Please remember that this is an international forum and excessive chest thumping by the military regardless of nationality is most unseemly. — Ken Fortenberry

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Ken, All’s I’m trying to say is that military members are a group of human beings, like educators, like computer professionals. That’s not chest thumping. As you said, there are good and bad in every group. I don’t trivialize any group of people. To do so is to trivialize all. To denigrate the work of a group of folks because they are in the military is very small minded. Oh, by the way, the U.S. is not the only country that has a military. And, oh, by the way, in many countries, the military is a highly respected profession. Unfortunately, it is mostly in those industrialized nations that have the freedom and wherewithal to be able to afford the time and the money to sit at computers or fly fish. Wonder if there is a connection there? Yes, this is an international forum, maybe over the years, you will expand your narrow views to match it. Now thats chest thumping. I may not change your mind, but I can try to change your perspective. Frank

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … These are anecdotal. They are all true. They are all military members. And two members of the US military raped a 12 year old Japanese schoolgirl. Pretty useless to trade these examples, I’ll concede that there are both really nice folks and some of the scum of the earth serving in the military. … MSgt Ret is alphabet soup. However, I only used it since you used ACM. Glass houses my friend. include their email address in their .sig, but if you find it untoward Please remember that this is an international forum and excessive chest thumping by the military regardless of nationality is most unseemly. — Ken Fortenberry

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… I don’t trivialize any group of people.

To call the military a necessary evil is not to trivialize it, by definition necessary is not trivial. Oh, by the way, the U.S. is not the only country that has a military.

Exactly the point, Frank. To hear some tell it all US actions are noble, honorable and professional and all US military personnel heroes while the only human being to have actually died in this regrettable incident is a "hotdog" who deserved to die. Now that’s jingoism. … Yes, this is an international forum, maybe over the years, you will expand your narrow views to match it. Now thats chest thumping. I may not change your mind, but I can try to change your perspective.

Thump away, my friend, but I think my perspective is just fine and the chances of you changing it are nil. — Ken Fortenberry

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Ken Fortenberry writes: To hear some tell it all US actions are noble, honorable and professional and all US military personnel heroes while the only human being to have actually died in this regrettable incident is a "hotdog" who deserved to die. Now that’s jingoism.

If you saw film of previous flights by Chicoms harassing *legal* flights, you would ulnderstand why the Chicom died. He "deserved" to die simply because he was harassing another aircraft in international waters when he should not have. No jingoism or chauvinism involved. Poor judgement, poor driving skills, lack of common sense, and unnecessary aggression caused his death, and damn near cause the death of *our* aircremen. As far as this not belonging on roff: well, it seems like you and only you get to pick roffs contents? Like "native American" crap and "squaw" crap and other politically correct crap. As long as the religious and patriotic intolerant Fortenberry says so, it must be so! Bullshit! See my hat. And, MY brother was in the marines too. What does *that* have to do with anything? Dave

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Ken Whats the fucking big deal? They are American Navy people. They were being held by a foreign power. They got to survive and come home. The West Sound is very Navy. People here care a lot about these things. So they threw a big Welcome home party. The Pacific is a big Ocean – 6 hours from the HI, so when they were 40 minutes out I posted that. Now maybe the desire to celebrate this small victory locally is partly to counter the many recent unfortunate happenings in WA like the Earthquake, the loss of a large fishing crew in the Bering sea last week, Boeing, etc etc. But I think people were genuine in their appreciation for these young people. As for the politics of it – you know that my politics are relatively progressive for this forum. No one would ever mistake me for a conservative. But you also know that I save my strongest disdain for ideology and ideologues right and left. And all know that I loath Bush, still support McCain, think Rumsfeld is dangerous, and am thankful that Powell is there to moderate things, and because of his caution borne of his combat experience. You feeling anti-war? Got anything to say about the Israeli Army abuse of Arab civilians? How about dual citizenship "Americans" called up as IDF reservists for a few weeks of fun in Gaza? Feel like a crusade? I understand there is a boatload of child slaves missing off Benin. Or maybe a little looksee at the status of foreign household domestics in Chambama might be needed. Teaching reading in the inner city? You do not know that probably the largest inner city volunteer tutoring programs are operated by the military. Most ships have such programs. The military is also far ahead of the rest of the country on affirmative action, family involvement and responsibility in the schools, family leave and support, universal medical coverage, equal opportunity, environmental stewardship and a few others. Like my rightwing nemesis, you assume too much. My point being that pissing on a Welcome Home party for some GIs in WA, doesn’t fulfill the monthly dues assignment for even our most peripatetic Naderite. Lighten up. You get the last word if you want it. Dave

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Ken, Is your life a piece of shit? I don’t believe it is. Do you? I believe you are a precious and utterly unique thing, and so am I, along with everybody else. Bottom line: My personal understanding is that people died so I could sit here at this keyboard and type whatever I want. I am grateful for those who have died, and to those who put themselves at risk for this country. I’m happy to see these kids come home and proud of the way they handled their situation. If that’s chest thumping, I’m going to thump my chest every chance I get. You can call it unseemly, call it any fucking thing you want. But ingratitude is worse than unseemly, it’s dishonorable. LR

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… He "deserved" to die simply because he was harassing another aircraft in international waters when he should not have.

He was no doubt under orders to harass the spy plane just as an American "hotdog" would be under orders to harass a Chinese spy plane in international waters off the coast of California. I doubt you’d be so cavalier about the death of an American aviator. As far as this not belonging on roff: well, it seems like you and only you get to pick roffs contents?

I don’t pick contents, but if I see something that makes this place an uncomfortable place for me or for others who want to discuss flyfishing I’ll either ignore it or bitch about it as I see fit. I suggest you do the same. … And, MY brother was in the marines too. What does *that* have to do with anything?

Only that I’m not totally unsympathetic to career military. — Ken Fortenberry

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Ken Whats the fucking big deal? They are American Navy people. …

No big deal, I’m just tired of all the hoop-de-la and the bloodlust was just starting to taper off on ROFF when you had to go and bring the damn thing up again. And believe it or not, not every flyfisherman in the world gives a flying fuck about the American Navy. — Ken Fortenberry

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… But ingratitude is worse than unseemly, it’s dishonorable.

Worship the military if that’s your wont, but calling folks dishonorable is no way find a fishing partner. — Ken Fortenberry

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Take it any way you want. I didn’t call you dishonorable, but your behavior is. Enough dishonorable behavior and I may eventually judge you as dishonorable, but it’ll take a long time for me to feel that way about you. Since I took you to task publicly, I apologize in public for doing so. I should have emailed you.

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… Since I took you to task publicly, I apologize in public for doing so. I should have emailed you.

No problem, Lennie. — Ken Fortenberry

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ken, According to Websters, a jingo is a person who boasts of his patriotism and favors an aggressive, threatening, warlike foreign policy. You are totally missing the point. This is a welcome home for a group of Americans that was held captive after making an emergency landing at a foreign airfield. Would we have accepted this kind of treatment if this had been an airliner full of civilians, held by a foreign power after such an emergency landing? Because they are military, should we not welcome them home? It is not "jingoistic" to feel proud of a group of people who have been through a difficult ordeal, handled it with professionalism and returned home with honor. Their job? Ensuring that we are not suprised by an unforseen hostile act. If we can find out about what is going on, then mayhaps we can PREVENT an aggressive, threatening, warlike foreign policy. Neither is it jingoistic to be saddened by the deaths of American and Vietnamese service men in Vietnam, years after the end of the war. Their job? Bringing closure to the families who lost love ones in that war. I’ve watched both of these incidents unfold over the last few days. They hit home. I was an Air Force linguist and intelligence analyst. These are some of the brightest and hardest working folks in the military. Their IQs average in the top 10 percent. It takes over 1 1/2 years in school, 8 hours a day with six hours of homework to even sit in the seat. Then there is another year and a half of qualification on-the-job. The washout rate is as high as 60%. It is a very tight knit community. They are called "purple suiters" (the color of blue, green, and black uniforms combined) as they are the most "joint" job in the military. The mix of this crew is indicative of this "jointness." They do their wartime job day in and out with life and death decisions in their hands. 99% boredom, 1% stark raving terror. For this they make about $20,000 a year. I was at the Defense Language Institute at the same time as one of those guys on the MI-8. One of my coworkers was his roommate. We are heartened and glad that the EP-3 incident did not end in the same way. We are relieved that they’ve returned home. We are welcoming them home as a nation, as you would welcome an old friend into your home for Thanksgiving. Ken, Dave was not expressing "jingoistic melodrama." He, like many of us, were expressing a collective sigh of relief, that these men and women returned home to the ruffles and flourishes of the National Anthem and not the saddening strains of Taps. Frank Reid, MSgt, USAF (Ret)

Well said Frank, I think only those of us who have known the military as "family" for a goodly portion of our lives can really appreciate what the Whidbey Island folks felt today, it is a special bond that is still with me 31 yrs after retirement from the USAF. I also believe that *most* Americans celebrate with us. Frank Church, TSgt, USAF (Ret)

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Ken, According to Websters, a jingo is a person who boasts of his patriotism and favors an aggressive, threatening, warlike foreign policy. You are totally missing the point. This is a welcome home for a group of Americans that was held captive after making an emergency landing at a foreign airfield. Would we have accepted this kind of treatment if this had been an airliner full of civilians, held by a foreign power after such an emergency landing? Because they are military, should we not welcome them home? It is not "jingoistic" to feel proud of a group of people who have been through a difficult ordeal, handled it with professionalism and returned home with honor. Their job? Ensuring that we are not suprised by an unforseen hostile act. If we can find out about what is going on, then mayhaps we can PREVENT an aggressive, threatening, warlike foreign policy. Neither is it jingoistic to be saddened by the deaths of American and Vietnamese service men in Vietnam, years after the end of the war. Their job? Bringing closure to the families who lost love ones in that war. I’ve watched both of these incidents unfold over the last few days. They hit home. I was an Air Force linguist and intelligence analyst. These are some of the brightest and hardest working folks in the military. Their IQs average in the top 10 percent. It takes over 1 1/2 years in school, 8 hours a day with six hours of homework to even sit in the seat. Then there is another year and a half of qualification on-the-job. The washout rate is as high as 60%. It is a very tight knit community. They are called "purple suiters" (the color of blue, green, and black uniforms combined) as they are the most "joint" job in the military. The mix of this crew is indicative of this "jointness." They do their wartime job day in and out with life and death decisions in their hands. 99% boredom, 1% stark raving terror. For this they make about $20,000 a year. I was at the Defense Language Institute at the same time as one of those guys on the MI-8. One of my coworkers was his roommate. We are heartened and glad that the EP-3 incident did not end in the same way. We are relieved that they’ve returned home. We are welcoming them home as a nation, as you would welcome an old friend into your home for Thanksgiving. Ken, Dave was not expressing "jingoistic melodrama." He, like many of us, were expressing a collective sigh of relief, that these men and women returned home to the ruffles and flourishes of the National Anthem and not the saddening strains of Taps. Frank Reid, MSgt, USAF (Ret) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They are about 40 minutes from touchdown at Whidby NAS. You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama. — Ken Fortenberry

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Ken Fortenberry: You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama. After watching the Whidby Naval Air reunion, let me be the first to say, Ken, bleed out your ears *and* eyes. God Bless America, the U.S. Navy and our brave men and women who enable you to be such an insufferable intolerant little prick.

I can be insufferable without any help whatsoever from the United States Navy, thank you very much. Glad you enjoyed the TV show, Louie, now let’s hip-hip, hup-hup and go kill some Commies for the Gipper. Sheesh, take this crap somewhere where the coarser elements of our society gather to wallow in their ignorance, it has no place on ROFF. — Ken Fortenberry

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They are about 40 minutes from touchdown at Whidby NAS. dave

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They are about 40 minutes from touchdown at Whidby NAS.

You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama. — Ken Fortenberry

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Ken Fortenberry: You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama.

After watching the Whidby Naval Air reunion, let me be the first to say, Ken, bleed out your ears *and* eyes. God Bless America, the U.S. Navy and our brave men and women who enable you to be such an insufferable intolerant little prick. Dave Dave

Response:

Ken Fortenberry: You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama. After watching the Whidby Naval Air reunion, let me be the first to say, Ken, bleed out your ears *and* eyes. God Bless America, the U.S. Navy and our brave men and women who enable you to be such an insufferable intolerant little prick. Dave

AMEN! — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno 406-626-4022

Response:

Question:

With the wife in Vail, Coloradol for a week the last week of Oct…….any info on fly fishing in that area, guides, spots, fly school and such would be most thankful……am a surf fisherman in Texas and havent been fly fishing in some years……we have a Bass Pro Shop here in Dallas Ft Worth area to get gear and such that I havent visited yet or may I say I was busy in other departments……thanks for any help….

Here are parts of a conversation that I had with someone earlier. We also fished a river up from Vail. You go west on I-70 from Vail then turn south on the highway to Mintern (or Leadville), you’ll parallel a stream way below you in the canyon. At about Red Cliff the stream reaches the highway and mellows out. There’s a little picnic area we parked at and fished upstream

This stretch of water (the Eagle) was fantastic on 8/2-6, when I had the good fortune to be fishing it with a couple of friends. I used to live in Aspen and had fished the Roaring Fork and over in Frying Pan, but the fishing was never as good as the 5 days we had around Vail. I guess it helped that my freind had been guiding in the valley for about five years. I was told to pick up some emerging caddis at the local outfitter, and hardly took them off (except to do some nymphing). Caught my first cut on the Eagle just below the rod and gun club’s property off of highway 6. Anyway, I had to make a comment when I heard that I almost you on the river.

Response:

With the wife in Vail, Coloradol for a week the last week of Oct…….any info on fly fishing in that area, guides, spots, fly school and such would be most thankful……am a surf fisherman in Texas and havent been fly fishing in some years……we have a Bass Pro Shop here in Dallas Ft Worth area to get gear and such that I havent visited yet or may I say I was busy in other departments……thanks for any help….

Response:

Question:

If you check your history the British got thier first Enigma cipher machine from the Polish army. The Polish language is enough of an enigma to me. My in-laws may as well be speaking in secret code. Joe F. (Foregoing the obvious humor opportunities)

It’s all Navajo to me. Wolfgang who is STILL studying for the Turing test!

Response:

It’s all Navajo to me.

Ah yes *our* "Enigma machine" against the Japanese. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

rw wrote It’s a darn good thing for you Brits that an American submarine crew captured the Enigma cipher machine from a German U-boat. I saw it in a movie.

Obviously, you didn’t pay attention. At the end of the movie they displayed the actual events that were the basis of the story. There were three such missions and the first two were run by the British. The American mission did not occur until after D-day, as I recall. — -dnc-

Response:

Wolfgang wrote Wolfgang who is STILL studying for the Turing test!

You mean to tell me that all of this patter comes from a machine. (The bad jokes are a brilliant strategy…congratulations. Who programmed you?)

Response:

Wolfgang wrote Wolfgang who is STILL studying for the Turing test! You mean to tell me that all of this patter comes from a machine. (The bad jokes are a brilliant strategy…congratulations. Who programmed you?)

I could answer that question, but what reason would you have to believe me? Wolfgang riding the razor’s edge between a paradox and a conundrum

Response:

Wolfgang wrote Wolfgang wrote Wolfgang who is STILL studying for the Turing test! You mean to tell me that all of this patter comes from a machine. (The bad jokes are a brilliant strategy…congratulations. Who programmed you?) I could answer that question, but what reason would you have to believe

me? Faith in my fellow machine? — -dnc-

Response:

Wolfgang wrote Wolfgang who is STILL studying for the Turing test! You mean to tell me that all of this patter comes from a machine. (The bad jokes are a brilliant strategy…congratulations. Who programmed you?) I could answer that question, but what reason would you have to believe me?

Is your name really Eliza? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

rw wrote It’s a darn good thing for you Brits that an American submarine crew captured the Enigma cipher machine from a German U-boat. I saw it in a movie. Obviously, you didn’t pay attention. At the end of the movie they displayed the actual events that were the basis of the story. There were three such missions and the first two were run by the British. The American mission did not occur until after D-day, as I recall. — -dnc-

Really? Gosh, I must have been trying to beat the crowd to the parking lot. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Is your name really Eliza?

Eliza Lott?

Response:

… who is STILL studying for the Turing test!

would that be the non-sequiTUR test?? jeff (offering guided flyfishing sequi tours and non-sequi tours in the nc mountains)

Response:

Is your name really Eliza? Eliza Lott?

More like Eliza Little. Eliza was the first computer program that passed an "operational" turing test, IMHO. It was created in the 60’s by a famous computer scientist whose name I forget. It mimiced a psychiatrist who turned everything you said back into a question. Eliza’s creator was so appalled when people started talking (i.e. typing) to this rudimentary, stupid program that he spent the rest of his career attacking Artificial Intelligence, which always stuck me as odd. I see Eliza as a spoof of psychiatry. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Most of the vets would be in their 80’s is probably the answer. — Don Thompson Zoomie(BushBug) ACA#3460 TLCB#335 Any Time, Any Place Pull the chocks, lets get this kite in the air.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hats off to them, and a question: why the last time?

Response:

Most of the vets would be in their 80’s is probably the answer.

I thought about that, but why at 60 years, and plus, that doesn’t seem, well, "British." I though maybe it freaked out the French, those English boats full of rowdy Br.E.F. retirees and all…<G. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Don Thompson Zoomie(BushBug) ACA#3460 TLCB#335 Any Time, Any Place

Response:

Yeah, I heard that the Brits had their underwear in a bunch because the movie U-571 rewrote history, substituting an American crew for the British crew that actually captured the Enigma machine.

Yeah the story was fictional, but at the end they gave credit to the supposedly actual crews that recovered Enigmas, or Enigma code information. I just caught a glimpse of this as I was leaving – anyone know if any of *those* were British? * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

If you check your history the British got thier first Enigma cipher machine from the Polish army. Maybe that’s why the "I saw it in a movie" statement with the little smiley?<g

Yeah, I heard that the Brits had their underwear in a bunch because the movie U-571 rewrote history, substituting an American crew for the British crew that actually captured the Enigma machine. I guess that is pretty outrageous from their point of view, kind of like if an English movie showed the British Army planting the Union Jack on Iwo Jima. It’s a good film, though. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Today, a fleet of ‘Little Ships’, sets sail from Dover across the English Channel. This weekend, for the last time, veterans will gather in Dunkirk to commemorate the evacuation of the British Expeditionary Force from the beaches, sixty years ago.

Hats off to them, and a question: why the last time? TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The rescue of the British troops was accomplished, but at great loss, by a motley fleet of craft which included small civilian vessels. Many were no bigger than pleasure launches and crewed by old men and boys. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

Yeah, I heard that the Brits had their underwear in a bunch because the movie U-571 rewrote history, substituting an American crew for the British crew that actually captured the Enigma machine. I guess that is pretty outrageous from their point of view, kind of like if an English movie showed the British Army planting the Union Jack on Iwo Jima.

Yep. On top of that, there’s apparently another revisionist war history movie in the works with Americans masterminding an escape from a notorious high-security POW prison (the name escapes me at the moment). Trouble is, there weren’t even any Americans there at the time. Joe F.

Response:

Today, a fleet of ‘Little Ships’, sets sail from Dover across the English Channel. This weekend, for the last time, veterans will gather in Dunkirk to commemorate the evacuation of the British Expeditionary Force from the beaches, sixty years ago.

My dad and I were planning a trip to Europe next year to view WWII sites and sights, it’s too bad we’ll miss that – it’s something I’d like to see. Regards, Jeff

Response:

It’s a darn good thing for you Brits that an American submarine crew captured the Enigma cipher machine from a German U-boat. I saw it in a movie. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

If you check your history the British got thier first Enigma cipher machine from the Polish army.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s a darn good thing for you Brits that an American submarine crew captured the Enigma cipher machine from a German U-boat. I saw it in a movie. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

If you check your history the British got thier first Enigma cipher machine from the Polish army.

The Polish language is enough of an enigma to me. My in-laws may as well be speaking in secret code. Joe F. (Foregoing the obvious humor opportunities)

Response:

If you check your history the British got thier first Enigma cipher machine from the Polish army.

Maybe that’s why the "I saw it in a movie" statement with the little smiley?<g — Charlie…

Response:

Today, a fleet of ‘Little Ships’, sets sail from Dover across the English Channel. This weekend, for the last time, veterans will gather in Dunkirk to commemorate the evacuation of the British Expeditionary Force from the beaches, sixty years ago. The rescue of the British troops was accomplished, but at great loss, by a motley fleet of craft which included small civilian vessels. Many were no bigger than pleasure launches and crewed by old men and boys. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

Today, a fleet of ‘Little Ships’, sets sail from Dover across the English Channel. This weekend, for the last time, veterans will gather in Dunkirk to commemorate the evacuation of the British Expeditionary Force from the beaches, sixty years ago.

the dogged courage of the peoples of the united kingdom as displayed during the second world war has always been one of the most inspirational collective acts in world history. here’s to all of you, over there. wayno

Response:

Question:

I want information about flyfishing on the seychelles.

Response:

Three of us have booked a trip to the Seychelles next March through Indian Ocean Angling Adventures. We need 2 or 3 more to join us or we will have to cancel as its too much $$ for three. If you might be interested e-mail me at different groups who have gone there and they all said the same thing …way better than XMAS Island. Steve

Response:

I want information about flyfishing on the seychelles.

You can get all the info you want from us – Anna and martin lewis. Fax us on (248) 344266 or We discovered and developed flyfishing in the seychelles – been in the business now for 10 years. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

I want information about flyfishing on the seychelles. Dear Lasse,

We have been running a fishing operation in the Seychelles for 10 years. For the past two years we have concentrated on saltwater flyfishing specifically for bone fish and trevally. We have been very successful over the past two years and now have four world records pending ratification. If you wish to visit our website – it will soon be changed – you will gain an idea of what we do. Go to altavista and type in seychelles + flyfishing. Tam Tam should come up. Look forward to hearing from you. Regards Martin and Anna Lewis Tam Tam Tel +248 344266 Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Question:

A big "thanks"to the guys who have so readily replied to my request for help with some very sound advice. I really appreciate your words of wisdom and will be endeavouring to put them into practice. I’m also impressed with this forum – so much response so quickly! Regards, Brian Meredith Nelson New Zealand — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email — always at Talkway.

Response:

Brian: Two other thoughts on the situation. 1. Another common way to spook fish in NZ is with your line itself. You need to make sure that your leader is long enough — generally we fished with 12-15 foot leaders. They’re a bitch to cast, but necessary. Ideally, you want to put the fly 6 feet in front of the fish (though depending on depth, you may need more), so you still have 6 or 8 feet of leader behind the fish before it attaches to your fly line. 2. Generally NZ fish aren’t particularly "leader shy", but in slow moving, crystal clear water they may see your tippet. Generally we would fish with 3x fluorocarbon tippet, but in the situation you describe, I might be tempted to put on a 4x or even 5x fluorocarbon. That’s only a 4 lbs. breaking strength, but might be necessary. Keep in mind that the deeper the fish, in smooth water, the wider his angle of view. This is counter intuitive: the fish sees MORE from a deep lie than from a shallow lie. So if you’d been approaching fish successfully in shallow water, and judged how close you could get from that, you may get too close. I made that mistake myself stalking a 10 lbs.+ brown cruising a regular beat in a deep hole, to my everlasting regret. I got where I thought it would be safe, but he had stopped cruising. Also, you’ve got to stay much further back from a fish in smooth water than in roily water. A fish lying deep in smooth water may be literally impossible to catch. E.g. if you have to cast well in front, in order to give time for the nymph to sink, any cast that would present the fly properly would "line" the fish. Your only hope in that kind of situation would be to wait for the wind to riffle the surface of the water. Then you might just get a cast in. Michael — www.geocities.com/yosemite/falls/3363

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some advice for a novice please? I am fortunate to live in New Zealand’s South Island where there are some of theworld’s most renowned trout waters. They are populated mostly by brown trout which are notoriously difficult to catch. This pat weekend I was fishing the source of the Gowan River as it emerges from lake Rotoiti in the Nelson lakes national Park. I spotted my fish, a beautiful looking brown sitting on station in crystal clear and slow moving water. I stalked him with great care and there followed an hour of some of my most careful casting, some of which (not all by any means!) placed my size 6 pheasant tail nymph gently upstream of his mouth before drifting majestically over him. And nothing. He did not move. He did not strike. He just stayed on station and ignored that nymph and the four other varieties I tried. So what was I doing wrong? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. BrianM — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email — always at Talkway.

Response:

<< stalked him with great care and there followed an hour of some of my most careful casting, some of which (not all by any means!) placed my size 6 pheasant tail nymph gently upstream Egads, Brian! A size *6* pheasant tail

i figured (fugured?) that size 6 was a typo. wayno

Response:

brianm wrote Some advice for a novice please?

[wily trout story snipped] Next time you see a big fish on station in ultra clear, smooth water, try observing him (without him observing you) for a while to see how he is feeding. Is he on the bottom? Just below the surface but never breaking it? Occasionally sipping? Also, try taking a little mesh net with you to see what’s in the water. Those little nets they sell for tropical fish aquariums work pretty good, but for faster results, try 2-3 square feet of nylon mesh (you can get at any hardware store). It’s a little cumbersome but at worst, you’ll get an interesting cross section of some of the insects in the water and at best, you just might have a pattern in your box. — -dnc-

Response:

<<even peter charles has failed to catch a fish; or, at least, legend would have it that way. It is true. I have witnessed it. Of course Peter had gotten into the Sleeman’s and had mistaken the broom in the cabin for his fly rod. Dave LaCourse

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This pat weekend I was fishing the source of the Gowan River as it emerges from lake Rotoiti in the Nelson lakes national Park. I spotted my fish, a beautiful looking brown sitting on station in crystal clear and slow moving water. I stalked him with great care and there followed an hour of some of my most careful casting, some of which (not all by any means!) placed my size 6 pheasant tail nymph gently upstream of his mouth before drifting majestically over him. And nothing. He did not move. He did not strike. He just stayed on station and ignored that nymph and the four other varieties I tried. So what was I doing wrong? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

I’ve had the good fortune to fish the South Island in two trips, and I envy your location. I agree with Dave that a size six may be too big. However NZ nymphs do tend to the larger sizes — mostly 10-14 in my experience (rarely as small as 16, but 6 is HUGE). You should check with local anglers/shops for advice. Several other points: Often, if the fish is in a comfortable, deep lie, it will not move even if spooked. So you could easily have spooked it and not realized it. Besides actually seeing you, if it was a bright sunny day, you could have spooked it with a reflection or a shadow. Do you have a silver or gold reel? Other silver metal that might flash? Even black or dark colors, if glossy, can send a reflection on a bright sunny day that will put off a wary NZ trout. Shadows are especially treacherous if the sun is low and behind you. Your body and rod will then cast a shadow upstream. It’s actually very hard to cast lines near a wild NZ trout for an hour without spooking it. So my guess would be the trout was spooked and was just holding its lie. Also, were there other fishermen around? YOU might not have spooked it, but someone could have fished to it before you showed up. This is particularly likely if the fish is in an obvious lie (as this one seems to be). Also, NZ fish will rarely go for a fly pattern once refused. So, for example, if it saw the PT and decided not to take it (say because you dragged it) you MUST change patterns. The fish may not have been spooked, simply keyed into some other fly. In general, if you’re pretty sure you covered a NZ fish with a fly once, and it doesn’t take, you should change flies immediately. (The art is to be sure you’ve covered the fish — that comes with experience. I had a day on a small stream in NZ where the fish would only take if the fly was DIRECTLY on their nose. I mean six inches off, which normally is fine, would not induce a strike. You had to keep casting until you got it right). But generally, there’s no point in chucking the same fly over and over again. If you’re sure you’ve covered a fish, you should change flies. Again, check with your local shop. But cased caddis, brassies, etc. might draw a strike that a PT wouldn’t. It’s not unusual to try 4 or 5 different patterns, and occasionally you can draw a strike on the 5th pattern. Keep in mind that every time you cast to a NZ fish, you risk spooking him. So try to make very cast count. If you think you’ve covered the fish, change flies. Don’t screw around. If you’re working a fish without any luck, stop after a few casts and watch it. If it hasn’t been spooked, you should be able to see it nymphing — occasional left or right swings to take a fly. If it’s glued to a spot without moving, it’s likely spooked. Waiting a few minutes may let the fish go back on the feed, assuming it wasn’t badly spooked. When all else fails, chuck a Wooly Bugger upstream and across, and strip it by his nose. I’ve never actually had it work, but I have had totally unresponsive fish at least follow the fly before refusing it. One of these days, I’m sure, it will work. Michael — www.geocities.com/yosemite/falls/3363 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

<< stalked him with great care and there followed an hour of some of my most careful casting, some of which (not all by any means!) placed my size 6 pheasant tail nymph gently upstream Egads, Brian! A size *6* pheasant tail? I should think the fish would be more comfortable ingesting a size 14 -18 ptail. I may be missing something here, but I have never seen a ptail tied larger than a size 12. What size tippet did you have? A #6 hook would equate to a 1X or 2X tippet. Big is not necessarily always "better", Brian. Try smaller nymphs, smaller tippet (maybe even fluorocarbon). Of course a size 2X tippet with a #6 pheasant tail would make a wonderful trolling machine. d;0) You ain’t trollin’, are you, Brian? <G Dave LaCourse

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some advice for a novice please? I stalked him with great care and there followed an hour of some of my most careful casting, some of which (not all by any means!) placed my size 6 pheasant tail nymph gently upstream of his mouth before drifting majestically over him. And nothing. He did not move. He did not strike. He just stayed on station and ignored that nymph and the four other varieties I tried. So what was I doing wrong? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. BrianM

*assuming you didn’t actually spook him*…let me repeat that: *assuming you didn’t actually spook him*, then you were doing *nothing* wrong. you were offering fake food to an animal that didn’t want to eat. in short, you were "fishing". while the same anomaly will continue to occur throughout your fishing career, take heart: it is a noble endeavor, and your occassional failures make you part of an ever-growing club. even peter charles has failed to catch a fish; or, at least, legend would have it that way. wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email — always at Talkway.

Response:

Some advice for a novice please? I am fortunate to live in New Zealand’s South Island where there are some of theworld’s most renowned trout waters. They are populated mostly by brown trout which are notoriously difficult to catch. This pat weekend I was fishing the source of the Gowan River as it emerges from lake Rotoiti in the Nelson lakes national Park. I spotted my fish, a beautiful looking brown sitting on station in crystal clear and slow moving water. I stalked him with great care and there followed an hour of some of my most careful casting, some of which (not all by any means!) placed my size 6 pheasant tail nymph gently upstream of his mouth before drifting majestically over him. And nothing. He did not move. He did not strike. He just stayed on station and ignored that nymph and the four other varieties I tried. So what was I doing wrong? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. BrianM — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email — always at Talkway.

Response:

Question:

Okay, with this post, we’ve established absolutely nothing. Everyone is going to have their own opinions. But, if you will note the subject ‘-freshwater fish-’ then you will find that the original poster might have wondered about the best freshwater gamefish. Last time I checked, tarpon and mullet aren’t freshwater fish. Since that established nothing, why not establish nothing again? Which saltwater fish is king? Thanks, Bryce

Response:

Okay, with this post, we’ve established absolutely nothing. Everyone is going to have their own opinions. But, if you will note the subject ‘-freshwater fish-’ then you will find that the original poster might have wondered about the best freshwater gamefish. Last time I checked, tarpon and mullet aren’t freshwater fish.

FYI….They live in both fresh and salt water…. Since that established nothing, why not establish nothing again? Which saltwater fish is king? Thanks, Bryce

WHALE SHARK on a 8 wgt. fished with a 1000 naught, 64 inch, 15# dumbell head/eye chartreuse/white clouser with a 150 lb shock tippet. Bimini twist optional. seriously… Permit me to vote *PERMIT*. (btw, I’ve never had the pleasure of catching one with a flyrod…but years ago I did land one on a light spinner outfit in the Florida Keys and that memory still burns bright in my gray matter, or what’s left of it.)

Response:

In my meager opinion, pound for pound ( or ounce for ounce) bluegills are the most fun to catch. Tying on a tiny midge, or a fair sized popper for a big fat "sunnie" is probably the most fun one can have on a hot summer’s day. Next time you fish for these little guys, notice how vicious they can be! It’s great! If sunfish grew to be the size of muskies, I’d never wade or swim in a lake or pond again! :) John W. Kramer Clearwater Outfitters WE ENDORSE CATCH AND RELEASE (717) 938-3423

Response:

If sunfish grew to be the size of muskies, I’d never wade or swim in a lake or pond again! :)

Hell, they try to be dangerous at the size they are now… Have you ever accidently stood in a bluegill’s nest while swimming? They will not hesitate to bite you. And if you put one in your aquarium at home, they will quickly claim the whole damn tank as their territory, and do their best to kill the other fish, bigger or not. Tough little buggers, and one of God’s greatest gifts to the fly fisherman! Bob Scott

Response:

For King, Snook. Tarpon run a close second, bonefish third, nothing beats Ladyfish on trout tackle (fourth) and for sheer power, #5 vote goes to the Jack Crevalle.

Response:

I’ve heard that Atlantic Salmon are great fighters, but at Oregon’s Hosmer Lake in mid-summer they give a couple of puny runs, then float gasping on their sides like logs.

Atlantic Salmon in a lake in Oregon? How did they get there? I’m not surprised they’re struggling! — Phil Jones Swansea, S Wales

Response:

You shouldn’t limit your question so much. I’ve been a Salmon and Steelhead guide for about 6 years now, and have caught 60 plus pound King Salmon, and 20 plus pound Steelhead. I thought the Steelhead were the fightingest fish I ever put a hook to, until I hooked into a fresh Sockeye. The 9 pound Sockeye did more than any of the Steelhead I’ve ever batttled, so thats the species that gets my vote. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In your experience, which fish do you feel fights better? The Coho salmon, Steelhead(rainbow), brown trout, or atlantic salmon?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You shouldn’t limit your question so much. I’ve been a Salmon and Steelhead guide for about 6 years now, and have caught 60 plus pound King Salmon, and 20 plus pound Steelhead. I thought the Steelhead were the fightingest fish I ever put a hook to, until I hooked into a fresh Sockeye. The 9 pound Sockeye did more than any of the Steelhead I’ve ever batttled, so thats the species that gets my vote. In your experience, which fish do you feel fights better? The Coho salmon, Steelhead(rainbow), brown trout, or atlantic salmon?

Gotta agree with you James, Of all the west coast salmonids the sockeye does the goofiest things when hooked. Tailwalks and high jumps are one thing but to watch a 10lb. sockeye go 3 or 4 feet in the air while wrapping line around itself like an out of control winch is something else indeed. Not much for long runs, but they seem almost epileptic in their behaviour when close to the boat or shore. Pound for pound the most powerful fish has to be the steelhead ( on the West coast ) Can’t comment on the Atlantics as we won’t be able to catch them here for a few more years (a couple more involuntary escapements from the local fish farms otta do it!) "Catch and release everything you legally have to, or don’t want to eat"

Response:

I have fought some 3-5 LB shad that struggled and ripped line off more than a 20+ LB steelhead. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Question for fellow flyfishers: In your experience, which fish do you feel fights better? The Coho salmon, Steelhead(rainbow), brown trout, or atlantic salmon? I always talk with fishermen who have varying opinions about the above fish. Which is harder to entice with a fly? Thanks for any opinions.——Muskie

Response:

You shouldn’t limit your question so much. I’ve been a Salmon and Steelhead guide for about 6 years now, and have caught 60 plus pound King Salmon, and 20 plus pound Steelhead. I thought the Steelhead were the fightingest fish I ever put a hook to, until I hooked into a fresh Sockeye. The 9 pound Sockeye did more than any of the Steelhead I’ve ever batttled, so thats the species that gets my vote.

Right. Ive seen fresh sockeye so enthusiastic they jump 10 feet out of the river, land on the bank, then tail-flop themselves back in, before you can reel in the slack! I saw one jump and hit the fisherman in his chest one time. — -Wayne Trzyna Fight spam! Join CAUCE (Coalition http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~trzyna See http://www.cauce.org/

Response:

Carp. Survive anywhere. Dams, cows and polllution haven’t killed’em. Bar room brawlers on light tackle. At least as spooky and hard to catch as other species mentioned….specially on a fly. — Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state." Tom McGuane

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My $.02 worth: as a general rule, it seems to depend more on the water temperature and oxygen content than the variety of fish. Example: I’ve heard that Atlantic Salmon are great fighters, but at Oregon’s Hosmer Lake in mid-summer they give a couple of puny runs, then float gasping on their sides like logs. We have to stay by the fish until they get their ‘breath’ back to keep the always waiting eagles and osprey from snatching them from the surface. It also seems that fish that are more naturally acclimated to warm water, like bluegill and bass, have more energy in the same conditions than transplants. Pound for pound, after 30+ years of fly fishing, I think that bluegills and saltwater perch give the best fight. If anyone ever creates a five pound bluegill that leaps while fighting, trout and steelhead hatcheries will be a thing of the past I enjoy trying to catch different species and have also been fishing since jesus was a kid. I most emphatically agree with you. Here in Florida we have what we call stump knockers which are BIG bream and they ain’t for a 2wt. In point of fact, for speed, length of run, and power, the lowly mullet when up the rivers beats a trout hands down. Another fish which should be running now in this area and exhibits unseen power is the American shad (not to be confused with the gizard shad). It is my understanding that carp are great fighters also but I’m reserving my opinion on them till I hook one. John Popp in Sanford Fl.

I DONT GIVE A RATS ASS ABOUT WHICH FISH IS KING,THEY’RE ALL FUN ON THE LONG ROD.AND ANOTHER THING,HOW IN THE HELL DID A MULLET GET THAT FAR UP THE ST. JOHN’S?AND I GUESS THE 64$ QUESTION IS HOW DID YOU GET IT TO HIT A FLY LINE!

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TARPON THATS ALL I’VE GOT TO SAY

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My $.02 worth: as a general rule, it seems to depend more on the water temperature and oxygen content than the variety of fish. Example: I’ve heard that Atlantic Salmon are great fighters, but at Oregon’s Hosmer Lake in mid-summer they give a couple of puny runs, then float gasping on their sides like logs. We have to stay by the fish until they get their ‘breath’ back to keep the always waiting eagles and osprey from snatching them from the surface. It also seems that fish that are more naturally acclimated to warm water, like bluegill and bass, have more energy in the same conditions than transplants. Pound for pound, after 30+ years of fly fishing, I think that bluegills and saltwater perch give the best fight. If anyone ever creates a five pound bluegill that leaps while fighting, trout and steelhead hatcheries will be a thing of the past I enjoy trying to catch different species and have also been fishing since jesus was a kid. I most emphatically agree with you. Here in Florida we have what we call stump knockers which are BIG bream and they ain’t for a 2wt. In point of fact, for speed, length of run, and power, the lowly mullet when up the rivers beats a trout hands down. Another fish which should be running now in this area and exhibits unseen power is the American shad (not to be confused with the gizard shad). It is my understanding that carp are great fighters also but I’m reserving my opinion on them till I hook one. John Popp in Sanford Fl. I DONT GIVE A RATS ASS ABOUT WHICH FISH IS KING,THEY’RE ALL FUN ON THE LONG ROD.AND ANOTHER THING,HOW IN THE HELL DID A MULLET GET THAT FAR UP THE ST. JOHN’S?AND I GUESS THE 64$ QUESTION IS HOW DID YOU GET IT TO HIT A FLY LINE!

Mullet are often in the St.John’s past Palatka and are legal to spear fish in salt run. Most of the St.Johns is tide water and is shrimped with cast nets, sting rays are caught as far south as sanford and the European ell comes upstream as far as Lake Monro as well as croaker. Now as to getting a mullet to bite on a fly line, it requires "chumming" with chicken feed as follows- Take a handfull of chicken feed and dampen it forming a semi cohesive ball, throw the ball into the water and they will come. The mullet often roil the water to a foam. After throwing the "chum" into the water fallow quickly with any slow sinking fly in the middle of the feeding and hang on. By the way The rodman spill way is part of the Oklawaha system and slows the millions of gallons spewed from silver springs to the St.Johns river. It is heavy with strippers, reds, catfish, bass, and various species both fresh and salt. While I lived in San Mateo, it was one of my favorite fishing spots. Many salt water species travel far up the St.Johns to spawn.

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Pound for pound, after 30+ years of fly fishing, I think that bluegills and saltwater perch give the best fight. Right. One of the most enjoyable things to do is walk to a bream pond and pull out those thrashing blugills one after another for hours on end. Bryce

I vote along with you guys. Ounce for ounce, the mighty bluegill is one feisty fish. –Walt

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What ever is on the end of my line at the time…. I have had my mouth go completely dry, I was so excited the first fish I caught with a fly I had tied myself… It was a small bream. Same feeling when a nice trout. Same feeling when a "baby" four foot tarpon "takes high air", and same feeling when a brown finally decides my offering is worthy…… I get excited by em all… and that’s after 58 years…. I still dream about rank fish for greatness in battle I would list them as 0. Bream – especially on a very light long rod… 1. Atlantic Salmon 2. Small mouth bass 3. Steelhead trout 4. Tarpon 5. King Salmon and one of the toughest never give up, never lay over fish, I have ever caught is a char… I don’t necessarily like the way a brown fights because they don’t show themselves… Supposedly there is a strange fish in New Guinea that requires 1/8 cable to hold and a 55 horse power motor going in full in opposite direction to keep it out of the trees and a 130 pound/wire shock tippet and one still stripped the gears out of the motor pulling the boat against the prop!!!!! least that’s the way I heard the story but have never caught one. I need to go fishing… hope this weather clears… Alan E. Hoover to quote one of my favorite authors: "Fly fishing is such great fun, it really ought to be done in bed" John Voelker, aka Robert Traver

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Supposedly there is a strange fish in New Guinea that requires 1/8 cable to hold and a 55 horse power motor going in full in opposite direction to keep it out of the trees and a 130 pound/wire shock tippet and one still stripped the gears out of the motor pulling the boat against the prop!!!!! least that’s the way I heard the story but have never caught one.

I’ve never caugh one either, but the do exist. Papuan bass or New Guinea black bass are reputed to be awesome stump pullers. Your descriptions are probably not far from the truth. They are a fresh water lutjanid (snapper) and have been caught to around 50lb. Lefty Kreh has a video with some New Guinea bass action, and if you see it, Greg Norman (golfer) has fishing video that covers them too. John Knight Sydney Fly Rodders’

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Walter G. Winter wrote I vote along with you guys. Ounce for ounce, the mighty bluegill is one feisty fish.

and don’t forget the penalty for mishandling these little buggers — -dnc- to reply, change ‘dnc’ to ‘dcollins’ in email address – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – –Walt

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Question for fellow flyfishers: In your experience, which fish do you feel fights better? The Coho salmon, Steelhead(rainbow), brown trout, or atlantic salmon? I always talk with fishermen who have varying opinions about the above fish. Which is harder to entice with a fly? Thanks for any opinions.——Muskie

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In your experience, which fish do you feel fights better? The Coho salmon, Steelhead(rainbow), brown trout, or atlantic salmon?

James Henshall wrote more than a century ago it was the "black" bass i.e. smallmouth. — | Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs, | | Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734 |

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My $.02 worth: as a general rule, it seems to depend more on the water temperature and oxygen content than the variety of fish. Example: I’ve heard that Atlantic Salmon are great fighters, but at Oregon’s Hosmer Lake in mid-summer they give a couple of puny runs, then float gasping on their sides like logs. We have to stay by the fish until they get their ‘breath’ back to keep the always waiting eagles and osprey from snatching them from the surface. It also seems that fish that are more naturally acclimated to warm water, like bluegill and bass, have more energy in the same conditions than transplants. Pound for pound, after 30+ years of fly fishing, I think that bluegills and saltwater perch give the best fight. If anyone ever creates a five pound bluegill that leaps while fighting, trout and steelhead hatcheries will be a thing of the past

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In my experience the most thrilling fighter is the Steelhead. They do a jumping, tail walking, head shaking fight that is unparalleled. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail GO TO http://www/ccnet.com/~emh FOR TRAVEL TIE BOX PLANS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Question for fellow flyfishers: In your experience, which fish do you feel fights better? The Coho salmon, Steelhead(rainbow), brown trout, or atlantic salmon? I always talk with fishermen who have varying opinions about the above fish. Which is harder to entice with a fly? Thanks for any opinions.——Muskie

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Pound for pound, after 30+ years of fly fishing, I think that bluegills and saltwater perch give the best fight.

Right. One of the most enjoyable things to do is walk to a bream pond and pull out those thrashing blugills one after another for hours on end. Bryce

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IMHO it is the one on the end of my line at the time. J. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My $.02 worth: as a general rule, it seems to depend more on the water temperature and oxygen content than the variety of fish. Example: I’ve heard that Atlantic Salmon are great fighters, but at Oregon’s Hosmer Lake in mid-summer they give a couple of puny runs, then float gasping on their sides like logs. We have to stay by the fish until they get their ‘breath’ back to keep the always waiting eagles and osprey from snatching them from the surface. It also seems that fish that are more naturally acclimated to warm water, like bluegill and bass, have more energy in the same conditions than transplants. Pound for pound, after 30+ years of fly fishing, I think that bluegills and saltwater perch give the best fight. If anyone ever creates a five pound bluegill that leaps while fighting, trout and steelhead hatcheries will be a thing of the past

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My $.02 worth: as a general rule, it seems to depend more on the water temperature and oxygen content than the variety of fish. Example: I’ve heard that Atlantic Salmon are great fighters, but at Oregon’s Hosmer Lake in mid-summer they give a couple of puny runs, then float gasping on their sides like logs. We have to stay by the fish until they get their ‘breath’ back to keep the always waiting eagles and osprey from snatching them from the surface. It also seems that fish that are more naturally acclimated to warm water, like bluegill and bass, have more energy in the same conditions than transplants. Pound for pound, after 30+ years of fly fishing, I think that bluegills and saltwater perch give the best fight. If anyone ever creates a five pound bluegill that leaps while fighting, trout and steelhead hatcheries will be a thing of the past

I enjoy trying to catch different species and have also been fishing since jesus was a kid. I most emphatically agree with you. Here in Florida we have what we call stump knockers which are BIG bream and they ain’t for a 2wt. In point of fact, for speed, length of run, and power, the lowly mullet when up the rivers beats a trout hands down. Another fish which should be running now in this area and exhibits unseen power is the American shad (not to be confused with the gizard shad). It is my understanding that carp are great fighters also but I’m reserving my opinion on them till I hook one. John Popp in Sanford Fl.

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Question:

Hello! I tried fly fishing in the beautiful mountains of Lake Tahoe and found it a wonderful experience! I now live in Portland, Oregon and would like to take it up. I hear Oregon is a good spot for fly fishing. If anyone has any advise on how to get started, I would be very grateful… My children (2 girls) are 4 and 6 years old. I now have the opportunity to take a weekend and try this wonderful sport. I am looking for advise on: 1. Equipment to get started with (beginner stuff) 2. Places close to Portland to go and try this, without annoying the experts :^) 3. The times of year to go 4. Anyone who would like to have me tag along on a day trip… I am 29 and in good shape (for hiking into those "great spots"). The first time I tried it, I think I did fairly well (picking up on the motions). But I definitely need some pointers on what I might be doing incorrectly… Thanks! –Mike

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check out http://www.csport.com site for countrysport fly fishing shop, downtown Portland. Very helpful and they hold classes for different levels on the Crooked River in central Oregon. Drop in and se them or give them a call. Don Beaverton

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Have a look at the Oregon section of the Anadromous page http://www.scotangling.com/oregon/reports.htm Lots of useful info and people to contact.

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The thing of it is, all this competitive junk we heap upon our pursuits more often than not will keep us from enjoying them fully. Don’t worry about your ‘level’, answer the question ‘Am I having fun ?’ If yes, then keep doing it ! An interesting aside, I was recently approached to run a FFing school and was kind of uneasy about it, though I didn’t know why. This string answered my question, think I’ll pass ! jc COME ON! jeeze! you guys are relentless! The level thing was obviously (to me) a tongue in cheek post concerning the realization that that you really *are* here to be in the moment and enjoy your surroundings : 5)just go fishing and soak in the experience, catching fish just a plus… If you guys would stop trying to be so damned elitist, you would see that half the posts you flame are posts you would agree with if you would take the time to read them.

Congratulations, You have demonstrated a command of the language which may be unobtainable by the "elitists". Words do have meaning. Reading is such hard work. Dennis

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: I’ve been flyfishing for more than a decade, and a couple of years ago I : realized I had reached the fifth level of flyfishing. The levels are: : 1) catch a fish with this hard to operate equipment : 2)catch lots of fish : 3)catch a large fish : 4)catch lots of large fish : 5)just go fishing and soak in the experience, catching fish just a plus… I’m at all these levels, I love to fish and catch fish, whether it’s tarpon in Florida or bluegill down the road, or just watching a trout feed and not wetting a line. Why limit yourself. I will fish for anything, anywhere, anytime and enjoy it. John

Well said! Jack

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How many of you were ever new to flyfishing? Do you remember that first stike, how the excitement surged as you "swung and missed". And that rush as you clumsily horsed in you first fish. And what about the satifaction as you let that first big brute go after a battle well fought. Let us not loose sight of why we fish…That big chess game we play with Mother Nature. Instead of limiting the players, why not educate them on how the "game" is played. Anyone who wants to enjoy this wonderfull sport of Flyfishing should be able to WITHOUT the harassment of others. Maybe a helping hand should be extended instead of a judgemental finger. Dana Clark

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Pavlov) writes: : : tim: look, why don’t you cut folks like the originator of this thread : a little slack. he did nothing to deserve your relentless sarcasm, … : Maybe everyone is getting a little touchy. I don’t see how Tim’s posts reflected on the originator of the thread. The one that you quoted was a response to someone else altogether. greg pavlov

It never fails to amaze me that regardless of the hobby, there are those who use their proficiency as a weapon to downgrade those who are less accomplished. When I first got into photography (prior to the wonders of the internet) I ran into the same smug and demeaning attitude I find on this forum on occasion. Let’s face it, after A River Ran Through It was released thousands of newcomers became enamoured with flyfishing. Some of these people are just trendy types who confuse fishing with ownership of all the toys. They will never really appreciate the joy of standing in a stream and taking it all in. Most of these people will fish awhile and then put their equipment in the closet along with the remains of their other short-term obsessions. On the other hand, there are those who seriously enjoy the experience and who plan on spending the next several years learning flyfishing and being responsible in what they do. Oldbies should take the time to learn the difference. Bo Johnson

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Dear Gentlemen; If I may expand this idea of "the clothes make the man": Sure, there are a lot of middle-aged and younger flyfisherman with the newer more technologically developed gear, but look at where 4-wheel drives have gone. Who would have ever though a uper-mid. class house wife would lust after a Chevy Blazer, for heaven’s sake! There are a lot of established F.Fisherman here in the east who don’t have a lot of money and who persue their sport with the single-midedness of an olympic athelete. They welcomed me to thier waters, (if not thier ranks, yet), and gave me the info I neede to catch fish. None of these guys act in a demeaning way if you do not have the best equipment. If you have the *right* equip., that is important. They know what will catch trout. They also know that just having the right equip. guarantees nothing. Stuff works or it doesn’t. Sometimes, no matter how good you rod is, well, trout can’t read, and they have no concept of money. Some fantastic F.Fisherman from my home area, NW PA, have rather inexpensive glass rods and cheap reels. They learned long ago that the flyline and the presentation of a fly which the trout *might* take are the most important factors. We cannot get on people’s cases about equipment. Technique will be lost. I honestly need better technique. I know I don’t do what I should as well as I should, but expensive equipment (or new) will not help me. Overall, I have found that the oldest of the order are the most accepting of new blood. They are less competetive for fish. I owe them tremendously. Sincerely; Jason Beary

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Another level altogether: when you take your neighbor’s kid out because he/she looks a little down. You leave your rod behind so you can concentrate on helping this youngster have the best time he/she possibly can. — Laboratory for Applied Logic Dept. of Computer Science University of Idaho www: http://www.cs.uidaho.edu/~foster —–BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK—– Version: 2.6.2 mQCNAzDtvLEAAAEEAKAC21G2Be0K0DMgjLpxrwLmsYfCz8rWcfgyABjr3Ryfk1dO nV7fFFpUF3xohR7die+/B2V9oqRQzTLeSF2ECKlsTY/yUyw2kn+P2ju1umh4Fwzd cVTvc+H69q1+Ft3kmw/PE0Pan+g0PUGGJ43stw3q4OgBHdixbRd/f9giJFDxAAUR tCZKYW1lcyBBLiBGb3N0ZXIgPGZvc3RlckBjcy51aWRhaG8uZWR1PokAlQMFEDD8 ReEXf3/YIiRQ8QEBFrAD/2AFuRWcD/3MENC3qJMC/Or1qxknjkK7Uv+TDf2LHPOY GHBbG9PyWuXQ8of0Dd+JYwf/tzlO9Yk1s1zTdikfriak21FW0bCokxDIhA3myppZ IZDWVA9CyvDYHuP5Ii1NkBvocab813JzDLZA+0iVN5sebGb9zSXR4Za47hlriHeP =RDHK —–END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK—–

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"Another level altogether: when you take your neighbor’s kid out because he/she looks a little down. You leave your rod behind so you can concentrate on helping this youngster have the best time he/she possibly can." This person is a "master" fly fisher. We all concentrate on our equipment, where we fish, how many fish we catch and so on. After many years we reach a level where we own fine quality equipment, we’ve fished all of the popular waters for a variety of species, and we’ve caught more fish than we can remember – and probably fewer than we sometimes profess. At this time we are regarded by our peers and ourselves as accomplished and notable fly fishers. But, until you take the time to pass along you knowledge, in a gentle and patient manner, you have not mastered the sport. Congratulations on reaching this ultimate plateau.

Response:

I’ve been flyfishing for more than a decade, and a couple of years ago I realized I had reached the fifth level of flyfishing. The levels are: 1) catch a fish with this hard to operate equipment 2)catch lots of fish 3)catch a large fish 4)catch lots of large fish 5)just go fishing and soak in the experience, catching fish just a plus…

Is it possible that there is a (6) Be near water dreaming of the fishes with no intention of doing anything to them, but knowing that you could, if you wanted to..? Rowing my little dory on trappers lake and seeing all of the cutts in the gin clear water with no desire for… Dooo Dooo Dooo…. …ripping lips. Tim Walker

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: (6) Be near water dreaming of the fishes with no intention of doing : anything to them, but knowing that you could, if you wanted to..? Tim, maybe you should start an RFD for "rec.outdoors.stop-fishing" because that’s what you seem to advocate nowadays. — Jeff Smith Graduate student http://www.msc.cornell.edu/~jeffs Cornell University, Ithaca, NY

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : (6) Be near water dreaming of the fishes with no intention of doing : anything to them, but knowing that you could, if you wanted to..? Tim, maybe you should start an RFD for "rec.outdoors.stop-fishing" because that’s what you seem to advocate nowadays. Nah… But I’d like to see… rec.outdoors.flyfishing.lets-put-the-fishing-back-in-flyfishing rec.outdoors.flyfishing.is_fashionable rec.outdoors.flyfishing.natural_order_is_extinct rec.outdoors.flyfishing.C&R.might_as_well_stock_the_olympic_sized_pool rec.outdoors.flyfishing.pensive rec.outdoors.flyfishing.binaries.pictures.erotica.trout.tasteless Tim Walker

tim: look, why don’t you cut folks like the originator of this thread a little slack. he did nothing to deserve your relentless sarcasm, which is simply becoming tiresome to many of us who might even agree with some of your positions. if you want to engage in competitive verbal abuse, pick on someone your own size. just email me or fletcher or jeff smith, etc., when you feel froggy. meanwhile, let the newbies and the innocents alone to do their walden/thoreau thing in peace. a. wayne harrison

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: : : (6) Be near water dreaming of the fishes with no intention of doing : : anything to them, but knowing that you could, if you wanted to..? : : Tim, maybe you should start an RFD for "rec.outdoors.stop-fishing" : because that’s what you seem to advocate nowadays. : : Nah… <blah, blah, blah : Tim Walker Tim… *yawn* oh, nevermind. -chuck o. —

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I’ve been flyfishing for more than a decade, and a couple of years ago I realized I had reached the fifth level of flyfishing. The levels are: 1) catch a fish with this hard to operate equipment 2)catch lots of fish 3)catch a large fish 4)catch lots of large fish 5)just go fishing and soak in the experience, catching fish just a plus… Am I alone, or have others experienced this with their own fishing?? Oh yeah, I’m the guy who started the thread about discovering "slower" rods and increasing my enjoyment of the sport 10 fold… Dennis

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: I’ve been flyfishing for more than a decade, and a couple of years ago I : realized I had reached the fifth level of flyfishing. The levels are: : 1) catch a fish with this hard to operate equipment : 2)catch lots of fish : 3)catch a large fish : 4)catch lots of large fish : 5)just go fishing and soak in the experience, catching fish just a plus… : Am I alone, or have others experienced this with their own fishing?? : Oh yeah, I’m the guy who started the thread about discovering "slower" : rods and increasing my enjoyment of the sport 10 fold… : Dennis Yea, I’ve reached level 5 too… But I skipped levels 2, 3, and 4. -chuck o. (not joanne b.) OST, maybe I did attain level 3 (w/o attaining level 2, of course)… depens on your definition of "large." —

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: (6) Be near water dreaming of the fishes with no intention of doing : anything to them, but knowing that you could, if you wanted to..? Tim, maybe you should start an RFD for "rec.outdoors.stop-fishing" because that’s what you seem to advocate nowadays.

Nah… But I’d like to see… rec.outdoors.flyfishing.lets-put-the-fishing-back-in-flyfishing rec.outdoors.flyfishing.is_fashionable rec.outdoors.flyfishing.natural_order_is_extinct rec.outdoors.flyfishing.C&R.might_as_well_stock_the_olympic_sized_pool rec.outdoors.flyfishing.pensive rec.outdoors.flyfishing.binaries.pictures.erotica.trout.tasteless Tim Walker

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: But I’d like to see… : rec.outdoors.flyfishing.binaries.pictures.erotica.trout.tasteless What would be in this group… the 4 inchers or the 10 inchers? — Rick T. Rick Fletcher – http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry | That’s Idaho, not Iowa. | ad hominem University of Idaho | Upper Left Hand Corner. | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343 | No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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Congratulations on attaining that state. Welcome to the group of flyfishers that see the spiritual aspect of flyfishing. Not only see it, but practice it. I too progressed through the process. Level 5. Jonathan Livingston Seagull wondered what level is next. JJ

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : : (6) Be near water dreaming of the fishes with no intention of doing : : anything to them, but knowing that you could, if you wanted to..? : : Tim, maybe you should start an RFD for "rec.outdoors.stop-fishing" : because that’s what you seem to advocate nowadays. : : Nah… <blah, blah, blah : Tim Walker Tim… *yawn* oh, nevermind. -chuck o. —

Go Tim! Go!

Response:

WHAT IS IT WITH SOME OF YOU GUYS/GALS? You were new to the sport at one time so why not give a lot of newbies a little slack? We may be newer to it than you but we certainly do not come to it with any less honorabel intentions. We too love the outdoors and the total experience. We too love the idea of learning to excel at the sport. SO, PLEASE forgive us if we take a spot on the water once in awhile.

It’s concepts like being at a "level" that make me feel like joining Tim Walker sometimes. There seems to be this "karate school" mentality about; white belt, yellow belt, black belt etc. that people need to attach to everything. It’s as if we need a constant reassurance of our self worth. The twisted thing is, fishing has traditionally been a place to get AWAY from this crap, it’s a mental state where you just exist as a part of the water. It’s inner peace. If it’s there for you, it’s there regardless of your ability. When I started FFing it was like 1967, and I used to fish in the ocean for pollock, mackerel, cod and the occasional sea raven, when is like a sea robin that inflates when out of the water, we used to call them ‘grubbies’. It was a delight for me to catch anything then. I never thought of a grubbie as being inferior to a striper, and had never heard of tarpon, bones, etc. Now I catch mostly stripers & blues, but this summer I was standing on the dock at our marina just dangling a clouser in a couple feet of water and up comes this mass of weeds – no it’s a grubbie! and arcs under the fly, returning to the piling he lived at. I was thrilled, by a ‘trash’ fish. The thing of it is, all this competitive junk we heap upon our pursuits more often than not will keep us from enjoying them fully. Don’t worry about your ‘level’, answer the question ‘Am I having fun ?’ If yes, then keep doing it ! An interesting aside, I was recently approached to run a FFing school and was kind of uneasy about it, though I didn’t know why. This string answered my question, think I’ll pass ! jc

Response:

I have to confess, I’m a little surprised at the simplistic ideology being embraced in this thread. To believe that any pursuit in life is a straight-line progression from crude to intellectually and spiritually superior is a little naive. I have fished for 35+ years, 24 of those as a fly-fisher, and I have days when I just want to be out in the environs and every- thing else is secondary and days when catching a fish is almost a holy quest. It depends on a lot of factors. How long since the last time I was out? Who am I with? Have I ever fished this body of water before? What kind of reputation does this water have? Did I get a chance to tie any of those secret weapon flies I’ve been telling all my friends ‘can’t miss’? How good am I feeling about myself this week? It’s too complex to reduce to "I went though stage 1 in 1974, stage 2 in 1976, etc." I guess, to me, fishing is a form of play. The child in me wants to be mature and philosophically superior. But, it’s just a child and is too busy enjoying the pursuit to spend the time and energy analyzing its motives. When it all comes together and I rise to that ‘higher plateau’, I enjoy the smug feeling. And, when I’m in my neanderthal frame of reference, I enjoy that too. Just so there is no mistake– I always protect the resource to the best of my knowledge and ability. I have removed many thousands of yards of monofilament from streams and beaches in my 35+ years. I never go into the woods that I don’t take a trash container and return with any trash I see, can reach, and can carry. My sons were a little upset when they realized not everyone had a dad that made them pick up trash in the woods. But, that’s just one of the rules of the game, as I play it! Tight lines and Happy times! Charley

Response:

WHAT IS IT WITH SOME OF YOU GUYS/GALS? You were new to the sport at one time so why not give a lot of newbies a little slack? We may be newer to it than you but we certainly do not come to it with any less honorabel intentions. We too love the outdoors and the total experience. We too love the idea of learning to excel at the sport. SO, PLEASE forgive us if we take a spot on the water once in awhile.

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: I’ve been flyfishing for more than a decade, and a couple of years ago I : realized I had reached the fifth level of flyfishing. The levels are: : 1) catch a fish with this hard to operate equipment : 2)catch lots of fish : 3)catch a large fish : 4)catch lots of large fish : 5)just go fishing and soak in the experience, catching fish just a plus… I’m at all these levels, I love to fish and catch fish, whether it’s tarpon in Florida or bluegill down the road, or just watching a trout feed and not wetting a line. Why limit yourself. I will fish for anything, anywhere, anytime and enjoy it. John

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The thing of it is, all this competitive junk we heap upon our pursuits more often than not will keep us from enjoying them fully. Don’t worry about your ‘level’, answer the question ‘Am I having fun ?’ If yes, then keep doing it ! An interesting aside, I was recently approached to run a FFing school and was kind of uneasy about it, though I didn’t know why. This string answered my question, think I’ll pass ! jc

COME ON! jeeze! you guys are relentless! The level thing was obviously (to me) a tongue in cheek post concerning the realization that that you really *are* here to be in the moment and enjoy your surroundings : 5)just go fishing and soak in the experience, catching fish just a plus…

If you guys would stop trying to be so damned elitist, you would see that half the posts you flame are posts you would agree with if you would take the time to read them.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have to confess, I’m a little surprised at the simplistic ideology being embraced in this thread. To believe that any pursuit in life is a straight-line progression from crude to intellectually and spiritually superior is a little naive. I have fished for 35+ years, 24 of those as a fly-fisher, and I have days when I just want to be out in the environs and every- thing else is secondary and days when catching a fish is almost a holy quest. I guess, to me, fishing is a form of play. The child in me wants to be mature and philosophically superior. But, it’s just a child and is too busy enjoying the pursuit to spend the time and energy analyzing its motives. When it all comes together and I rise to that ‘higher plateau’, I enjoy the smug feeling. And, when I’m in my neanderthal frame of reference, I enjoy that too.

Dear Sir, You have summed up quite elonquently what I meant by spirituality. I don’t recall writing the word "Superior". I must clarify that my intention was not to convey a sense of superiority. But, wanted to convey that the whole process represents spiritual growth. There is no elitism here…..elitism has made me puke for years. JJ

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