Question:

 The Prestige. But its only a good deal with the 3 Forks package. You  can find cheaper Okumas elsewhere.   And, it’s a good "bang for the buck" reel.  But, the Prestige   included with the 3 wt. Three Forks is a bit large for this rod, IMO.  I think it’s for 5/6 wt. line.  One of the smaller Okuma’s would be a better fit on the 3 wt. Snoop

True enough Snoop…both my 3 and 5 wt Three Forks sport an Okuma Sierra 3/4 and a nice rig it is. Frank(a very tired road hog) Church …..who just completed a 3300 mile trip to El Paso, Tx. and only had 300 miles of sunshine. The rest rain/drizzle/fog/snow/hail and who watched a tornado funnel form and disappear 3 times right before my very eyes. (wait a minute, was this a TR?)

Response:

 The Prestige. But its only a good deal with the 3 Forks package. You can find cheaper Okumas elsewhere.   And, it’s a good "bang for the buck" reel.  But, the Prestige included with the 3 wt. Three Forks is a bit large for this rod, IMO.  I think it’s for 5/6 wt. line.  One of the smaller Okuma’s would be a better fit on the 3 wt.

The one I bought for my St. Croix three weight is labeled "4/5", but it’s the smallest reel I own by far.  Pretty ideal for the three weight in my estimation.  As a matter of fact, even with a 3 WF there is little room for backing.  I’m not sure I could get a double tapered line on it even without any backing. Wolfgang

Response:

I use a Galvan 3wt reel on my P.O.S. Three Forks. It’s a lovely reel — a light anodized metallic color, just the right size, with a sensitive drag and a decent amount of backing — as though I’ll ever need it. At first I felt like an idiot because the reel (an impulse purchase) costs maybe four or five times what rod costs, even when the rod was bought as a "combo." I use a 3 wt WF Sage Performance line with that rod. The LINE costs more than the rod, even when bought as a "combo." It matches the rod "perfectly" to my satisfaction. BTW, I recently got my repaired workhorse 5wt Sage SP back from the factory, after breaking it horribly and sickeningly at the HF Clave. I took it out to the Big Wood River a few days ago, getting about two hours of fishing in during a day of frantic errand running in Ketchum and Hailey. It was a good outing, catching a few nice rainbows on dries during the tail end of a baetis hatch. The rod, however, felt like a surf rod compared to the Three Forks I’ve been using in its absence.

Response:

Proceed with caution.  Your four weight and 3 weight might breed, producing a 3.5 weight.  If this happens, there would be no hope of ever avoiding a gear-whore label.

It’s not so much the lable itself that I mind, but at these prices I find (at this late and rather sensitive stage of life) that I am a CHEAP whore. Scott (recovering this morning from a second lab flood  )

Core coolant leaking again? Wolfgang ever grateful for predominant westerly winds.

Response:

@wiscnews.wiscnet.net: Scott (recovering this morning from a second lab flood  ) Core coolant leaking again?

No, just an idiot one floor up who should need a license to operate a sink Did you know that Universities have employees that do nothing but serve as liasions to their own insurance companies? — Scott Reverse first field of address to reply

Response:

Thanks for the report, Bill.  I really had intended to fish with my Three Forks combo in NC last week but found it impossible to tear myself away from the rod Joel built for me on a St. Croix Legend Ultra blank back in the spring.

I can fully understand that! Since I bought the Three Forks back in July (for my daughter, I swear!), I haven’t used my 5 weight rig much.  Opportunities will be limited for me for the next few months, but maybe I’ll get lucky and manage at least a bluegilling trip before the ice sets in.

And here I was hoping for Thanksgiving at the cabin up on the Ontonogan! Shall I pack my skis? Bill

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wolfgang, you missed one fine $10 reel.  I looked at the Okuma version at a fly shop today, and it’s the exact same reel.  The salesman was trying to convince me that 30% off a $435 Ross reel was a bargain, but being the bottom feeder that I am… Which of Cabelas reels is the Okuma? I just looked at their site again……thinking of getting a four weight to keep the three company.    :) I believe the reel in question is the "Prestige". http://shorterlink.com/?VW9JA3 Wolfgang

Proceed with caution.  Your four weight and 3 weight might breed, producing a 3.5 weight.  If this happens, there would be no hope of ever avoiding a gear-whore label. — Scott (recovering this morning from a second lab flood  ) Reverse first field of address to reply

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for the report, Bill.  I really had intended to fish with my Three Forks combo in NC last week but found it impossible to tear myself away from the rod Joel built for me on a St. Croix Legend Ultra blank back in the spring. I can fully understand that! Since I bought the Three Forks back in July (for my daughter, I swear!), I haven’t used my 5 weight rig much.  Opportunities will be limited for me for the next few months, but maybe I’ll get lucky and manage at least a bluegilling trip before the ice sets in. And here I was hoping for Thanksgiving at the cabin up on the Ontonogan! Shall I pack my skis?

The place is full of deer hunters then…..nasty, smelly bunch, decidedly short on refinement…….hm……now I think about it, sounds a lot like a clave.  What time can you be there? Wolfgang if you bring liquid refreshments, stay close…..and stay awake!

Response:

 The Prestige. But its only a good deal with the 3 Forks package. You can find cheaper Okumas elsewhere.

  And, it’s a good "bang for the buck" reel.  But, the Prestige included with the 3 wt. Three Forks is a bit large for this rod, IMO.  I think it’s for 5/6 wt. line.  One of the smaller Okuma’s would be a better fit on the 3 wt. Snoop — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Wolfgang, you missed one fine $10 reel.  I looked at the Okuma version at a fly shop today, and it’s the exact same reel.  The salesman was trying to convince me that 30% off a $435 Ross reel was a bargain, but being the bottom feeder that I am… Which of Cabelas reels is the Okuma?

 The Prestige. But its only a good deal with the 3 Forks package. You can find cheaper Okumas elsewhere. G.C.

Response:

Wolfgang, you missed one fine $10 reel.  I looked at the Okuma version at a fly shop today, and it’s the exact same reel.  The salesman was trying to convince me that 30% off a $435 Ross reel was a bargain, but being the bottom feeder that I am… Which of Cabelas reels is the Okuma?

I just looked at their site again……thinking of getting a four weight to keep the three company.    :) I believe the reel in question is the "Prestige". http://shorterlink.com/?VW9JA3 Wolfgang

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had the 3-3-3 (Three Forks, three piece, three weight) with me in Colorado this past weekend, and really enjoyed fishing with it.  I’ll try to stave off hyperbole this time, though. Wolfgang, you missed one fine $10 reel.  I looked at the Okuma version at a fly shop today, and it’s the exact same reel.  The salesman was trying to convince me that 30% off a $435 Ross reel was a bargain, but being the bottom feeder that I am… One interesting data point: I fished with my friend Dennis on Monday.  He had a Cortland package set up and was doing miserably with it.  He just couldn’t seem to get a cast out right.  Handed him the 3-3-3 and he did much better.  Of course, Willi’d given him some pointers in the meantime, so maybe my data is skewed.  Just seems like a nice rod to cast, beginner or otherwise.

Thanks for the report, Bill.  I really had intended to fish with my Three Forks combo in NC last week but found it impossible to tear myself away from the rod Joel built for me on a St. Croix Legend Ultra blank back in the spring.  Opportunities will be limited for me for the next few months, but maybe I’ll get lucky and manage at least a bluegilling trip before the ice sets in. Wolfgang

Response:

Wolfgang, you missed one fine $10 reel.  I looked at the Okuma version at a fly shop today, and it’s the exact same reel.  The salesman was trying to convince me that 30% off a $435 Ross reel was a bargain, but being the bottom feeder that I am…

Which of Cabelas reels is the Okuma?

Response:

So, did you have fun?

Yes. Was it purty?

Yes. Did they make you eat "grits"?

Weren’t enough of ‘em.  I made ‘em eat olives! Geo.C. Who got skunked on the Brule Friday, but who was more in need of the water, trees and silence than fish anyway.

And you could have picked a worse spot.  On the other hand, there’s some mighty nice spots in NC too!      :) Wolfgang meantime, don’t believe the lyin’ bastids!    

Response:

So Wolfie did ya like the rod ??? Nice gear whore report makes me wanta send for one right now.                    Handyman Mike           Standing in a river waving a stick

Response:

So Wolfie did ya like the rod ??? Nice gear whore report makes me wanta send for one right now.

fished with it yet, did I?      :) Wolfgang and thus, the perfect rod!

Response:

So Wolfie did ya like the rod ??? Nice gear whore report makes me wanta send for one right now. fished with it yet, did I?      :)

For what it’s worth, Mike, I did actually test cast the rod on my lawn and found that it works as well as any other.  Bearing in mind that the reel seat will probably have to be replaced, as has so often been noted, I still think that the package is a steal for 60 bucks.  I only wish that I had investigated Cabelas site a little more carefully and gotten the Okuma reel for an additional ten dollars rather than the cheap graphite one. Wolfgang

Response:

Wolfie, Bass Pro Shops Have some nice little reels real cheap that look really good on the 3, they balance the rod well and are disk drag. I use the graphite reel to run the line off the other reel (4 hose clamps on a piece of broom stick.) — John Popp in Sanford Fl.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So Wolfie did ya like the rod ??? Nice gear whore report makes me wanta send for one right now. fished with it yet, did I?      :) For what it’s worth, Mike, I did actually test cast the rod on my lawn and found that it works as well as any other.  Bearing in mind that the reel seat will probably have to be replaced, as has so often been noted, I still think that the package is a steal for 60 bucks.  I only wish that I had investigated Cabelas site a little more carefully and gotten the Okuma reel for an additional ten dollars rather than the cheap graphite one. Wolfgang

Response:

I use the graphite reel to run the line off the other reel (4 hose clamps on a piece of broom stick.)

I gave mine to a local boy who loves to flyfish but doesn’t have much tackle — not even something as cheesy as the Cabela’s graphite reel.

Response:

Wolfie, Bass Pro Shops Have some nice little reels real cheap that look really good on the 3, they balance the rod well and are disk drag. I use the graphite reel to run the line off the other reel (4 hose clamps on a piece of broom stick.) — John Popp in Sanford Fl.

Thanks, John. Wolfgang

Response:

I had the 3-3-3 (Three Forks, three piece, three weight) with me in Colorado this past weekend, and really enjoyed fishing with it.  I’ll try to stave off hyperbole this time, though. Wolfgang, you missed one fine $10 reel.  I looked at the Okuma version at a fly shop today, and it’s the exact same reel.  The salesman was trying to convince me that 30% off a $435 Ross reel was a bargain, but being the bottom feeder that I am… One interesting data point: I fished with my friend Dennis on Monday.  He had a Cortland package set up and was doing miserably with it.  He just couldn’t seem to get a cast out right.  Handed him the 3-3-3 and he did much better.  Of course, Willi’d given him some pointers in the meantime, so maybe my data is skewed.  Just seems like a nice rod to cast, beginner or otherwise. Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So Wolfie did ya like the rod ??? Nice gear whore report makes me wanta send for one right now. fished with it yet, did I?      :) For what it’s worth, Mike, I did actually test cast the rod on my lawn and found that it works as well as any other.  Bearing in mind that the reel seat will probably have to be replaced, as has so often been noted, I still think that the package is a steal for 60 bucks.  I only wish that I had investigated Cabelas site a little more carefully and gotten the Okuma reel for an additional ten dollars rather than the cheap graphite one. Wolfgang

Response:

God bless Cabela’s for the less afluent among us. Joel Axelrad **DFD**

Response:

* combo TR and Gear Review snipped* Wolfgang

So, did you have fun? Was it purty? Did they make you eat "grits"? Geo.C. Who got skunked on the Brule Friday, but who was more in need of the water, trees and silence than fish anyway.

Response:

God bless Cabela’s for the less afluent among us. Joel Axelrad **DFD**

And God bless the builders of superior rods who make a backup something of a cheap luxury rather than an absolute necessity!       Wolfgang ya should’a been there!

Response:

As some of you will recall, I recently purchased a Cabelas Three Forks Combo which included a seven and a half foot 3 piece 3 weight rod, a cheap graphite click drag reel, a weight forward 3 wt. floating line of unknown manufacture, backing of unknown manufacture, material, and weight (it’s white), rod sock, a knotless tapered leader, and a getting started in fly fishing video, for the price of about 60 bucks (US) including shipping. The purchase was prompted by a perceived need to have a backup in the event of a catastrophic failure of my primary three weight rig during the recently concluded first ever ROFFian Appalachian backpacking anti-subclave, and the selection was based on several years worth of recommendations from a wide range of ROFFians (most of whom I have never met but have nevertheless inexplicably learned to trust……don’t ask me, maybe it’s the aneurysm) who have, for the most part, spoken glowingly of it.  I have not yet viewed the video and will thus refrain from further comment on it. After a week in the Smoky Mountains of extreme western North Carolina, fishing in very demanding circumstances (those familiar with the region are all too well aware of the rigorous demands made on both fly fisher and gear) I am prepared to say that despite some initial misgivings engendered by the rather shoddy appearance of the rod’s components (the entire reel seat assembly fails to inspire confidence), I am pleased to say without qualification that the entire outfit performed every task I demanded of it flawlessly. ….even perfectly.  True, I did not catch a single fish with it, but anyone who has been about this sort of thing for very long can attest that such failure can hardly be laid at the feet of the equipment……I can honestly say that coming home empty handed, as it were, had absolutely nothing to do with any deficiency in the design, components, or manufacture of the this rod, reel, or any other of the components of the system.  But then, having done some test casting on the lawn prior to packing for the trip, I already knew that this would be the case.  As is almost always the case, barring a mechanical failure (which, in this case at least, did not occur), the responsibility for the success (or lack of thereof) of the endeavor must rest squarely in the hands of the user. Fortunately, the perceived potential disaster which demanded the purchase of this system never happened, but as such an occurrence remains an all too real possibility I remain convinced of the wisdom of foresight and preparation for the worst eventuality and I will continue to carry this particular backup system secure in the expectation that it will continue to perform exactly as it did on this occasion. Wolfgang

Response:

Question:

For Sale: Ted Williams Sears Ice chest in original box with price tag and booklets. Taking offers. For photos please visit: http://205.160.242.2/~xenopus/tedwilliams.htm

Response:

For Sale: Ted Williams Sears Ice chest in original box with price tag and booklets. Taking offers. For photos please visit: http://205.160.242.2/~xenopus/tedwilliams.htm

That’s fucking twisted, son…

Response:

That’s fucking twisted, son…

NO, HE SAID IT WAS *ALUMINUM*, NOT "TWISTED, SON."   HTH. <g — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

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That’s fucking twisted, son…

<snipped Was just watching the news and heard……. twisted indeed. — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

Response:

For Sale: Ted Williams Sears Ice chest in original box with price tag and booklets. Taking offers. For photos please visit: http://205.160.242.2/~xenopus/tedwilliams.htm

        damn you, vern, you have no mercy!! wayno

Response:

For Sale: Ted Williams Sears Ice chest in original box with price tag and booklets. Taking offers. For photos please visit: http://205.160.242.2/~xenopus/tedwilliams.htm That’s fucking twisted, son…

Maybe, but the man knows his frogs.  You run a good service, burley. Scott

Response:

Not as bad as selling DNA though….. Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For Sale: Ted Williams Sears Ice chest in original box with price tag and booklets. Taking offers. For photos please visit: http://205.160.242.2/~xenopus/tedwilliams.htm That’s fucking twisted, son… Maybe, but the man knows his frogs.  You run a good service, burley. Scott

Response:

If your interested, I could put you on to a Td Williams fly fishing outfit from sears…..never been used…. john

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For Sale: Ted Williams Sears Ice chest in original box with price tag and booklets. Taking offers. For photos please visit: http://205.160.242.2/~xenopus/tedwilliams.htm

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Question:

A true classic is A Fly Fisher’s Life by Charles Ritz. Now out of print although you may pick up a copy in second hand bookshops. Ritz, of Ritz hotels fame, a Frenchman by birth spent many years fishing in USA as well as Europe. His US fishing friends included A J McClane and Ernest Hemingway. These two latter wrote the Introduction and Foreword respectively to the 1954 printing of the book as a translation from the French. Published in US by Henry Holt and Company, New York, 1960. Ritz commenced his fly fishing life in 1912. Ritz became famous for his designs of bamboo rods, believed to be the first time some technical application was applied to such design. I picked up my copy of the book at David Ishii bookseller, 212 First Ave Sth, Seattle, phone 206 622 4719 a few years ago when visiting USA. There may be another copy available. Probably quite expensive now [I considered it quite expensive then!!]. Regards — Peter Sealy Victoria,  Australia Any speling errors in this document are due to software bugs

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -A true classic is A Fly Fisher’s Life by Charles Ritz. Now out of print although you may pick up a copy in second hand bookshops. Ritz, of Ritz hotels fame, a Frenchman by birth spent many years fishing in USA as well as Europe. His US fishing friends included A J McClane and Ernest Hemingway. These two latter wrote the Introduction and Foreword respectively to the 1954 printing of the book as a translation from the French. Published in US by Henry Holt and Company, New York, 1960. Ritz commenced his fly fishing life in 1912. Ritz became famous for his designs of bamboo rods, believed to be the first time some technical application was applied to such design. I picked up my copy of the book at David Ishii bookseller, 212 First Ave Sth, Seattle, phone 206 622 4719 a few years ago when visiting USA. There may be another copy available. Probably quite expensive now [I considered it quite expensive then!!]. Regards — Peter Sealy Victoria,  Australia

Actually the book has gone through so many printings that it is fairly easy to find in one form or another.  Some forms very expensive.   I think it might still be in print.  Interesting to hear someone from Australia mention David Ishii.  What a neat little bookstore he has.  I haven’t been up there in a while but used to make it a point to stop in every time I was in Seattle. — Clyde Drury Black Bass Book Collector http://hometown.aol.com/BassBks/index3.html

Response:

If you want to read a great book I recommend  " Earth Is Enough " by Harry Middleton or any other book by him .His books are not just about flyfishing but also life in general . I guarantee you will like them but try not to get too hooked , one of his books " The Starlight Creek Angling Society " is out of print and cost $500 . Try " On The Spline Of Time " also

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A true classic is A Fly Fisher’s Life by Charles Ritz. Now out of print although you may pick up a copy in second hand bookshops. Ritz, of Ritz hotels fame, a Frenchman by birth spent many years fishing in USA as well as Europe. His US fishing friends included A J McClane and Ernest Hemingway. These two latter wrote the Introduction and Foreword respectively to the 1954 printing of the book as a translation from the French. Published in US by Henry Holt and Company, New York, 1960. Ritz commenced his fly fishing life in 1912. Ritz became famous for his designs of bamboo rods, believed to be the first time some technical application was applied to such design. I picked up my copy of the book at David Ishii bookseller, 212 First Ave Sth, Seattle, phone 206 622 4719 a few years ago when visiting USA. There may be another copy available. Probably quite expensive now [I considered it quite expensive then!!]. Regards — Peter Sealy Victoria,  Australia Actually the book has gone through so many printings that it is fairly easy to find in one form or another.  Some forms very expensive.   I think it might still be in print.  Interesting to hear someone from Australia mention David Ishii.  What a neat little bookstore he has.  I haven’t been up there in a while but used to make it a point to stop in every time I was in Seattle. — Clyde Drury Black Bass Book Collector http://hometown.aol.com/BassBks/index3.html

Response:

Question:

Great report, guys.  Peter, are you standing in a hole in that picture?  <g Never saw Forty in waders.  Hope I never do again.  <g  I like your hat, Forty.  Eff ‘em all if they don’t! Glad you guys had a great trip, and like Charlie has said, I find it hard to believe it did not rain.   Dave LaCourse

Response:

They call it "The Carnival" because during steelhead season it is packed with anglers. On a Monday morning, it was relatively uncrowded. "Relatively" being the key word.

Welcome to Michigan! A great day of fishing. The Muskegon River is a beautiful piece of water. It supports a spawning population of steelhead and Chinook salmon. It’s not really a trout stream, though. All the trout are stockers and they don’t get any natural reproduction.

I believe there are places where you can find resident trout.  I was speaking with a guy last night who has been fishing the Muskegon on and off for the last three weeks.  He said he caught several browns and rainbows in the 16" – 19".  Of course he was fishing private water that is rarely encountered except for people who are taking long float trips. Good to hear you guys got into some steelies.  I’ve been meaning to go out this year but only made it out once and left early after only two hours of fishing.  I was disgusted by the "relatively" uncrowded conditions.  Did catch some trout but on my 9 wt they weren’t too much fun. Mu

Response:

Glad you guys had a great trip, and like Charlie has said, I find it hard to believe it did not rain.   Dave LaCourse

Worse, it snowed. Peter

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real truth along with the evidence can be viewed at: http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/trip-27.html

The truth ain’t always ugly.  Nice pics, whoever took them – both you and Ken did a good job of that. Delorme’s can be wrong (the Michigan one at least).  They don’t show all the dirt roads and there are some *roads* on that map that are just dirt trails.  Some of the names of the roads change as they cross county lines or highways and this is not always clearly marked on the map.  Also, the green color on the Delorme is supposed to represent public land but the detail is not fine enough to show you that on many of these streams there are in fact houses along the river.  I don’t mind too much though, the exploration part is just part of the fun of fishing.   BTW, I like Ken’s hat – got a Kangol just like it, earflaps and all. Mu

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<great report snipped Nice Report Ken.  You reminded me of the first time on the San Juan last November.  I left my wading shoes in the car after my first day fishing, got down to the river the next morning and they were frozen solid. bc. — Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. -Benjamin Franklin

Response:

A great day of fishing. The Muskegon River is a beautiful piece of water. It supports a spawning population of steelhead and Chinook salmon. It’s not really a trout stream, though. All the trout are stockers and they don’t get any natural reproduction. I believe there are places where you can find resident trout.  I was speaking with a guy last night who has been fishing the Muskegon on and off for the last three weeks.  He said he caught several browns and rainbows in the 16" – 19". …

That’s right. Residents aka holdovers. I caught a nice 12" rainbow, he didn’t put up much of a fight against a 7wt. Those 6-8 inchers will be 12-14 inchers by fall and there are holdovers that make it through the winter. When I say it’s not a trout stream I mean that trout do not reproduce in the stream, they are all stocked. The spawning population of steelies and salmon head out to Lake Michigan after their sexual escapades in the Muskegon and return year after year to spawn. Their offspring do the same. While some would claim they’re not "wild" because they were stocked in the first place they are "natural" in my book. Unlike the trout. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Why can’t the rainbows spawn if the steelhead and salmon can? Are they outcompeted by the bigger fish?

Good question. I don’t know. I’m not familiar with the Muskegon at all and don’t know much about it. BTW, the salmon don’t return year after year. They die. I think I’ve heard of experiments with Atlantics in the Great Lakes, but the vast majority are Pacific salmon.

That’s right, the salmon that spawn in the Muskegon are Chinooks. — Ken Fortenberry

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Ken Have they ever tried Cutts in these rivers? Dave

Response:

Have they ever tried Cutts in these rivers?

Don’t know, David. I’m more familiar with Wisconsin DNR than Michigan. So far as I know, Wisconsin has not. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

That’s right. Residents aka holdovers. I caught a nice 12" rainbow, he didn’t put up much of a fight against a 7wt. Those 6-8 inchers will be 12-14 inchers by fall and there are holdovers that make it through the winter. When I say it’s not a trout stream I mean that trout do not reproduce in the stream, they are all stocked.

My guess is that it has nothing to do with water quality but other factors such as: available spawning space (competition from the big guys), fishing pressure, low survivability of the stockers (poor genetics?), and perhaps seasonal factors that affect residents but not migratories. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Unlike the trout. — Ken Fortenberry

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The truth ain’t always ugly.  Nice pics, whoever took them – both you and Ken did a good job of that. Delorme’s can be wrong (the Michigan one at least).  They don’t show all the dirt roads and there are some *roads* on that map that are just dirt trails.  Some of the names of the roads change as they cross county lines or highways and this is not always clearly marked on the map.  Also, the green color on the Delorme is supposed to represent public land but the detail is not fine enough to show you that on many of these streams there are in fact houses along the river.  I don’t mind too much though, the exploration part is just part of the fun of fishing.   BTW, I like Ken’s hat – got a Kangol just like it, earflaps and all. Mu

I was just being an ass.  The Delorme showed a Pettit road that lead straight to Croton.  It was a goat track and it ended at some power lines where trees and stumps had been dragged across the right-of-way. One would guess from the Delorme that it was a decent road.  Ken was right, the Delorme was wrong. Peter

Response:

Great trip report guys.   Thanks for the smiles. Joe F.

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Anyway, enough of the Entertainment Tonight segment of the trip.  The real truth along with the evidence can be viewed at: http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/trip-27.html

Nice report and pictures, but it didn’t seem to be raining so are you sure that was really Fortenberry in the festive chapeau? — Charlie…

Response:

……I have an ET2 secret that he’d pay me mucho dinaro not to reveal on these pages.

I’ll open the bidding at 5 bucks.

Response:

……I have an ET2 secret that he’d pay me mucho dinaro not to reveal on these pages. I’ll open the bidding at 5 bucks.

i’ll see that 5 and raise, a hush falls over the table, hee-hee-hee…. a bottle of wild turkey for maine clave — Ezflyfish.com:  http://www.ezflyfish.com http://auctions.yahoo.com/booth/ezflyfish_com Used, Rare, & Out-of-Print Books: http://www.crosswinds.net/~brbg/books/brbg-2.html

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Good report.  Nice to see pictures on your site. Willi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter is the one on the right with the teeny weeny bright hen and I’m the one on the left with the huge brawny buck. [a somewhat accurate story snipped] — Ken Fortenberry Teeny weeny hen my ass.  Just to set the record straight, I caught the hens, Ken caught the bucks.  Not trying to imply something here, but I’m starting question his "orientation" if you know what I mean.  (Say no more.   Say no more.  Nudge, Nudge, Wink, Wink)  Any way, if he keeps up with those exaggerations, I have an ET2 secret that he’d pay me mucho dinaro not to reveal on these pages. Anyway, enough of the Entertainment Tonight segment of the trip.  The real truth along with the evidence can be viewed at: http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/trip-27.html Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Marvellous report, great pictures too. I really enjoyed that.  Thanks TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

Response:

Holy macaroni! Who the hell are the two "dudes" in the pictures with the guide?

The good looking "dude" is me.  I’m the one with the rod.  The fish is the thing with fins.  The guide is holding the thing with fins. Notice I made Ken’s fish picture big and my fish picture small.  Am I a great person or what, eh? Where the heck did Ken get that hat??

He loves it – and I had to put up with all of the sniggers from the bait fishermen. And what’s this – Ken fishing for stockers?!?

with a gusto, I might add That’s it. The world is coming to an end. /daytripper (awe-palled…)

Naw, just a blip.  Now if he’d used spawn on the end of his T&T  . . . . Peter

Response:

Teeny weeny hen my ass.  Just to set the record straight, I caught the hens, Ken caught the bucks.  Not trying to imply something here, but I’m starting question his "orientation" if you know what I mean.  (Say no more.   Say no more.  Nudge, Nudge, Wink, Wink)  Any way, if he keeps up with those exaggerations, I have an ET2 secret that he’d pay me mucho dinaro not to reveal on these pages. Anyway, enough of the Entertainment Tonight segment of the trip.  The real truth along with the evidence can be viewed at: http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/trip-27.html

Holy macaroni! Who the hell are the two "dudes" in the pictures with the guide? Where the heck did Ken get that hat?? And what’s this – Ken fishing for stockers?!? That’s it. The world is coming to an end. /daytripper (awe-palled…)

Response:

Nice report. Thanks, almost like being there, especially the bloody freezing feet ! TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

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Peter is the one on the right with the teeny weeny bright hen and I’m the one on the left with the huge brawny buck.

[a somewhat accurate story snipped] — Ken Fortenberry

Teeny weeny hen my ass.  Just to set the record straight, I caught the hens, Ken caught the bucks.  Not trying to imply something here, but I’m starting question his "orientation" if you know what I mean.  (Say no more.   Say no more.  Nudge, Nudge, Wink, Wink)  Any way, if he keeps up with those exaggerations, I have an ET2 secret that he’d pay me mucho dinaro not to reveal on these pages. Anyway, enough of the Entertainment Tonight segment of the trip.  The real truth along with the evidence can be viewed at: http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/trip-27.html Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

… Where the heck did Ken get that hat??

Hey, that’s a great hat, fleece, Goretex AND ear flaps,…ahhh, ear flaps. Peter made fun of it too, can you imagine, and him looking like the Unabomber in that hood. And what’s this – Ken fishing for stockers?!?

Yeah I know, it made the guide happy. I considered it part of his tip. Those fish were put in the river the previous Thursday, all were 6-8 inches and dumber than dumb. The guide said if there’s anything in your fly box that you’d like to pull out at some point and say, "Can you believe I caught a fish on THAT.", now is the time to tie it on. They had six inches of snow the previous Friday and he said they were rising furiously to snow flakes. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

We picked the Muskegon River in Michigan because it’s roughly equidistant between my home in Urbana, IL and Peter Charles’ home in Burlington, Ontario. As fishing season 2000 started to unfold and dates started firming up, it was starting to look like Peter and I wouldn’t have a chance to wet a line together. I can’t make it to Maine ‘Clave, Peter can’t make it to Spring Fling so obviously we had to do something. It was basically put a finger on the map, let’s fish there. We hired a guide for Monday and met at the motel late morning on Sunday. I had my canoe and the plan was to buy licenses and familiarize ourselves with the area before the guided trip the next day. While buying the licenses I discovered a couple of things. First, if you catch a female steelhead early in the day, just gut her on the spot and you’ve got bait for the rest of the day. This from the very friendly bait guys at the Trading Post. I said, "Yeah, thanks. What a great idea." They did give us some very helpful advice on access points and I genuinely like talking to those guys even if I never would gut a hen on the spot. Second, Peter lies about his weight when buying a fishing license. We had a pleasant canoe trip from Croton Dam to the Thornapple Ave. access. Very crowded on a Sunday afternoon and we canoed more than we fished. We did see plenty of steelhead, though. Rather, Peter saw plenty of steelhead, I had left my polarized glasses in the car. Monday morning was cold. My wading shoes were wet from the day before and they turned into ice cubes while sitting in the drift boat. Hard for me to be comfy with cold feet and my feet were encased in ice for the first hour of the trip. We anchored the boat at a place the guides call "The Carnival", an eighth of a mile stretch of riffles and pools about a mile below Croton Dam. They call it "The Carnival" because during steelhead season it is packed with anglers. On a Monday morning, it was relatively uncrowded. "Relatively" being the key word. I got the first couple of hookups but botched them badly. Broke off the fish almost immediately. Peter landed the first steelie after a couple of his own botched hookups. I quickly followed and caught the same buck that had broken me off earlier, so was able to retrieve BOTH of my #14 black stonefly nymphs. We moved down a ways, spotted some fish, anchored and then waded into position. Peter was on almost immediately, our guide looked downstream, looked at the hole where he’d positioned me and said "Here’s our chance for a double." The guide waded down to net Peter’s fish and before he got into position I was on to a fish. The double. Guides love ‘em, and it makes for a great photo op. The first fish took me into the backing but this one seemed content to just sit in a hole and DEFY me. I watched the action downstream as Peter and the guide did the intricate netting dance and then I yelled down to Peter, "Here’s our double !" I worked down to get my fish next to the net so the guide could net both, one right after the other. He did, we got a quick photo, and Peter will post it on his site soon. Peter is the one on the right with the teeny weeny bright hen and I’m the one on the left with the huge brawny buck. I don’t know what Peter was using, I caught that one a Hex nymph. A great day of fishing. The Muskegon River is a beautiful piece of water. It supports a spawning population of steelhead and Chinook salmon. It’s not really a trout stream, though. All the trout are stockers and they don’t get any natural reproduction. Our guide was very good. I have only mentioned one guide in this forum as someone I recommend. That was Robin Cunningham of Gallatin Gateway, Montana. Today, I recommend the second. Dustan Harley of Ripple Guide Service. http://www.rippleguideservice.com/ Dustan had us on the water for nearly 11 hours and was at his most impressive when he stopped the boat, and said "Get out your 4 wts." It was the PERFECT interlude. We tossed stimulators and griffiths gnats to rising stockers. After chucking lead for most of the day with 7 wts, it was a real joy to actually flyfish with a dry fly. We caught dumb little 8" fish and it was a hoot. Dustan will be in Livingston, Montana during Western ‘Clave. He’s a good guy to go fishin’ with. I do question his taste in beer, after the trip when offered a Sleeman’s or a Budweiser, he chose the Sleeman’s. Hey, I said he was a good guide, I won’t vouch for his taste in beer. After that long day in the wind and the cold you might expect a couple of old farts to just go back to motel room, drink a beer in their underwear and go immediately to sleep. Peter and I partied till the wee hours, drank a half a fifth of Wild Turkey, and had to shoo off the dancing girls at daylight. That’s our story and we’re sticking to it. — Ken Fortenberry

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just melt the last inch or so of the coating of your line with nail polish remover; open the core of the line with a needle; poke the butt end of your leader into the core; and apply some Crazy Glue.  It will never let go.  The only leader knot you need to know is a blood knot. JB: thanks for the new (to me ) idea… I had just posted my favorite way (fast  nail knot of a piece of mono, then blood knots) when I read this.  It looks  more like an ‘at home’ method, vs. on stream, I think, but has clear  advantages for ease of going through the guides.  I’m gonna do it on my next  connection. thanks, Alan Alan E. Hoover Anglers’ Rest Powhatan, Va        *the trout teach many, lessons*

Has anyone tried this method: A guy I know claims to do the same (melt w/acetone) and then pushes the outer part back. He then loops the inner part; ties it off with a nail knot, etc. Here is the part I’ve had no luck with: he then claims to push the outer part back over the knot and therefore this should make a pretty neat sleeve. He then coats it with Aquaseal. I can’t seem to push it over the knot!!!

Response:

I’m new to fly fishing. I’ve read the instructions on connecting the leader to the fly line using a nail knot or a Duncan loop(same as uni-knot right?). I had a knotless tapered leader with a 3X tippet. Connecting the stiff butt to the line was harder than I thought. I was able to do it but ended up with a kink in the connection. Is this okay? I’m still learning to cast so I’m not sure if it affects proper casting. I finally just connected 30lb mono, which was easier to work with, to the fly line and spliced the mono to the leader butt with 2 surgeon’s loops. Is this better than a kinked connection. TIA for any info.

Just melt the last inch or so of the coating of your line with nail polish remover; open the core of the line with a needle; poke the butt end of your leader into the core; and apply some Crazy Glue.  It will never let go.  The only leader knot you need to know is a blood knot. JB

Response:

Just melt the last inch or so of the coating of your line with nail polish remover; open the core of the line with a needle; poke the butt end of your leader into the core; and apply some Crazy Glue.  It will never let go.  The only leader knot you need to know is a blood knot.

JB: thanks for the new (to me ) idea… I had just posted my favorite way (fast  nail knot of a piece of mono, then blood knots) when I read this.  It looks  more like an ‘at home’ method, vs. on stream, I think, but has clear  advantages for ease of going through the guides.  I’m gonna do it on my next  connection. thanks, Alan Alan E. Hoover Anglers’ Rest Powhatan, Va        *the trout teach many, lessons*

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I’ve been reading this thread since it started, trying to work up the courage to make an embarassing confession. After tying nail knots and loops for many years I’ve reverted to my origional method of tying a simple overhand knot in the end of my line,cinching it down tight, passing the end of the flyline through the loop in my leader and tying another overhand knot.

Jim; The nail-knot was one of the more enigmatic facets of flyfishing for several years: trout are midging?: no problem, hiting emergers and not duns?, not problem, nail-knot?: problem! Lefty showed me a simpler way to tie it without any kind of fancy tubes,and all the nail did was to help add support and to allow the line something *stiff* to wrap around. Borger, though, has, by far, the easiest method to tie nail-knots.  Try this with a rope kit first, though.  All he does is make an over-hand knot with loose wraps, and then twists the line as he tightens it.  The line spirals around itself and makes those great, perfect coils of a nail knot.  Also, he keeps the loops somewhat separated to allow fly line to pinch or squeeze-up through the loops and make a more integral connection. I know probably none of this has helped solve your problems, but maybe it gets you on the right track. Jason Beary.

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Jason, I was hoping someone would come upon Lefty’s method of tying a nail knot….  aka "a fast nail knot’  see also his two books on knots..  I use a large paper  clip, kept in my leader wallet for this purpose.   and have more than once  helped a friend or other on stream in the middle of the water tie a nail knot  onto a fly line.   I prefer to use a piece of heavy mono, the blood knot the  leader to this…. but either will work.   And with heavy fish the nail knot  slides in and out of the tip top and guides without hang ups… at home to  enhance this feature add a bit of nail polish or head cement to round the  edges…. The use of "orvis" loops on the end is ok,  just not as completely satisfactory  as the nail knot system IMHO. There clearly are more than one solution to this… but if folks ever learned  the fast nail knot system, they might not want to do anything else. cheers, Alan Alan E. Hoover Anglers’ Rest Powhatan, Va        *the trout teach many, lessons*

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m new to fly fishing. I’ve read the instructions on connecting the leader to the fly line using a nail knot or a Duncan loop(same as uni-knot right?). I had a knotless tapered leader with a 3X tippet. Connecting the stiff butt to the line was harder than I thought. I was able to do it but ended up with a kink in the connection. Is this okay? I’m still learning to cast so I’m not sure if it affects proper casting. I finally just connected 30lb mono, which was easier to work with, to the fly line and spliced the mono to the leader butt with 2 surgeon’s loops. Is this better than a kinked connection. TIA for any info. Just melt the last inch or so of the coating of your line with nail polish remover; open the core of the line with a needle; poke the butt end of your leader into the core; and apply some Crazy Glue.  It will never let go.  The only leader knot you need to know is a blood knot. JB

You got that right JB, my Krazy Glue connection has held up now for 3 years on my 6 wt, tussled with some feisty smallmouth and looks as good as ever. I will add to the blood knot, the double surgeon’s loop knot  ’cause I can’t tie a blood knot in the smaller diameter tippets. Frank Church Hi Frank.  I didn’t know how that message would go over with the LL Bean crowd that seems to populate the group.  But, I’ve fished with the Krazy Glue method since my buddy in Florida told me about it three years ago.  He fishes sea trout and tarpon.  I’ve caught several 15 – 25 lb Atlantic salmon with it.   I always "put the wood" to fish, and the glue has never let go. JB

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Quoting what I said …  As you do it over the years, other ideas will make more sense and you will switch, but in general it makes fair sense to trust your own judgment as to whether something is reasonable or not…. Jim Robinson wrote as follows: I’ve been reading this thread since it started, trying to work up the courage to make an embarassing confession. After tying nail knots and loops for many years I’ve reverted to my origional method of tying a simple overhand knot in the end of my line,cinching it down tight, passing the end of the flyline through the loop in my leader and tying another overhand knot. I guess I don’t have to tell you it’s not elegant but it’s held a couple of huge carp, a few nice bass and skads of decent pan fish without a failure….

Jim:         Nice to see that one’s words seem to have a certain validity. I am a devotee of the "using a slip-on loop out of braided stuff" on the end of my flyline, but what you do rings a bell because I got to securing the loop with a bit of flexible goopish cement. Well, one time it was really thick on there and I noticed my casts seemed to go out lots nicer. Figured it was the extra weight right there at the end

Question:

Has anybody flown into Dutch John airport in Utah? I want to fly there to fish the Green River. I would be flying from Jeffco (BJC) in Denver in a Piper Archer. Just curious about any wierd situations or oddities of the airport. Any info would be appreciated.

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Has anybody flown into Dutch John airport in Utah? I want to fly there to fish the Green River. I would be flying from Jeffco (BJC) in Denver in a Piper Archer. Just curious about any wierd situations or oddities of the airport. Any info would be appreciated.

I fly in to Dutch John about twice a year to fish.  Elevation is 6500 feet, runway is 7000 feet.  Last time I was in there, it had a chip coat (where they put down heavy oil and roll in gravel) so it is relatively hard surface.  Runway is plenty wide, should be no problem.  The folks that run the FBO also rent rafts, and will take you down and put you in the water in the morning and pick you up at Little Hole is the evening. Some of the best fly fishing in the west.  YOu can stay at the Flaming Gorge Lodge (I think they will pick up at the airport) or you can camp over in the "ponderosas" on the south side of the strip.  Suggest you be very careful with fire over there especially later in the year, but its a beautiful place to camp …. plenty big. Your biggest hassle is getting over the Rockies, from there its all down hill.  Suggest via Meeker, Vernal or direct.  I fly over from SLC, takes about 45 minutes in my 172/180. Enjoy — (:<)  Things are more like they are today than they have ever been before !

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Question:

The Beaverkill is in need of urgent help from those who Love to Fly Fish. I went last year and the fishing was lousy but I can see why it is the most notorious fishery in the world. The Orvis company and the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation will match your donation to the Local Trout Unlimited for this effort. IT IS A 2 TO 1 MATCH If you donate $10.00 dollars they make it $30.00 Not Bad Make all checks  Payable to: Trout Unlimited/Beaverkill Restoration Project Mail to Orvis Route 7A Manchester, VT 05254 Department RS Thanks for the support of our waterways Bob Burbage

Response:

The Beaverkill is in need of urgent help from those who Love to Fly Fish. I went last year and the fishing was lousy but I can see why it is the most notorious fishery in the world.

A lot of this had to do with the damage done from the big freeze-thaw last January.  That was merely nature doing it’s work and it’s likely that nature will take it’s course and the fishery will improve. The Orvis company and the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation will match your donation to the Local Trout Unlimited for this effort.

Details snipped.  Since I consider the Beaverkill one of my near home waters this article had some interest. However, before sending in a check I’d like to know exactly how this money is going to be spent.  

Response:

I wish it was merely nature doing it’s work last January. However, after the flood, the NY DEC indiscriminately handed out hundreds of permits to landowners for "stream improvements" to "correct" the flood damage to many streams in the Catskills, including many that feed the Beaverkill and both branches of the Delaware River. These ignorant people bulldozed many of these important feeders and did infinitely more damage than the flood. The DEC was totally negligent in not monitoring much of this destruction. Nature will take it’s course, but I’m not convinced that the fishery will improve for many years to come. For more info on this, see the latest issue of Trout Unlimited’s Trout magazine. That article is enough to make a grown man cry.  

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Question:

I just fished the PM on the 6th and 7th of this month. Lots bof fish in the river. Most were old but on Monday, Kelly Galloup, the guide if you know him said he saw fresh ones come up. There had been no rain for a long time but it did rain on Monday. After that I don’t know. If there was rain there has been rain in the last few days things should be good. The bottom line is it is worth the trip. Be prepared for lots of foul hook ups. My advice fish the deep holes and pray. Try different kinds of flies. They have seen lots of cadis emergers and stone flies. Try bright wooly buggers, black and yellow. Good luck. David

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Path: magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news-pe er.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.ero ls.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!pravda.aa.msen.com!not- for-mail Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Organization: Msen, Inc. — Ann Arbor, MI. Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Host: conch.aa.msen.com X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0]

Yeah, we just got back two weeks ago many of the fish were redding. johnson’s will lead you to them but you’ll pay for it. We brought our own canoe and floated every day from m-37 to green cottage and caught more fish than any of the guides. Hope this helps. An aside, the guides were not to pleasant. Brad – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Anyone know of the stream status in Northern Michigan? Johnson Lodge on the Pere Marquette says there are ’some’ fish being caught by them. I just found out that I can get out of Detroit this weeekend,  October 12, and am looking to wet a line somewhere. Thanks in advance  and Tight Lines Henry

Response:

Anyone know of the stream status in Northern Michigan? Johnson Lodge on the Pere Marquette says there are ’some’ fish being caught by them. I just found out that I can get out of Detroit this weeekend,  October 12, and am looking to wet a line somewhere. Thanks in advance  and Tight Lines Henry

Response:

Question:

All trout and char are truly magnificent fish, but for my money wild mountain rainbows are pound for pound the most aggressive battlers once hooked. Mind you , I do love to catch browns, speckles, cuts and bulls. Comments? Life is putting in time between fishing trips. —

Yeah – give me a chrome-sided steelhead or coho salmon, fresh from the ocean ANY DAY – now THAT’S RAW POWER!!!! Regards de Mike.

Response:

The wild brown trout of the Tasmanian highlands are beast.  One kilogram fish can take you to the backing. — Simon Dillon BENDIGO,  VICTORIA,  AUSTRALIA. http://www.hitech.net.au/~simon Check It out.

Response:

Rainbows! Pound for pound, the 1-2 lb. "half pounders with cheese" on the Klamath (CA) make a good account of themselves with a good combination of jumps and runs. I have read in Trey Combs’ Steelhead Fly Fishing: "on specially designed treadmill tests Thompson River(BC) Steelhead out perform all other fish tested".  Luckily the two of these I hooked have stopped after about 200-250 yards, but about one in ten never stops. The weekend before the toxic spill I hooked an amazing 12" wild trout on the upper Sacramento (CA) that took me well into the backing on a six weight.  I thought I had a 20 inch fish on. That trout’s ghost is now at least 24 inches and is prowling the banks for Southern Pacific railroad executives to pull in and drown, if you really want to talk about a fight. These are all rainbows. On the other hand, the lackadaisical Lahontans Cutthroats of Pyramid lake let you bring them within ten feet, then the mess around a while to play with your head, then they swim right to you and do a  little flip around twist that gets them off the hook about half the time.  It seems any trout there over 20 inches knows this trick, in my experience.  In the parlance of pugilism, these are not sluggers or fighters, but damn good boxers. Mark Vinsel http://www.lanminds.com/local/vinnie/gallery.html

Response:

The wild brown trout of the Tasmanian highlands are beast.  One kilogram fish can take you to the backing. The Browns in the Aare river of Switzerland … are some of the strongest fish I’ve ever fought.

Nah, the best fighters are the spring rainbows in the McCloud River in Northern California: big fish, strong currents, screamin’ reels!

Response:

Question:

I noticed a hat with mosquito netting draped over the face and neck, kind of like a beekeepers bonnet, in an REI catalog. Has anyone tried one of these hats?

Yes. They are fantastic.

Response:

-bill "I hate the stench of insect repellent" faus Have you tried eating LOTS of garlic &/or vitamin B1 for awhile before your trip? They say if you’ve got it oozing out of your pores, the bugs won’t like it. Your friends will be another problem. —

I had a friend that used B1 – LOTS of it.  I don’t know what it does to the bugs, but it makes a GREAT people repellent!  We go out in the winter when the bugs are fewer, not gone, but fewer. Ted

Response:

[headnets]  Yes!  They work.  They’re slightly annoying to wear, altho not as annoying as swarming mosquitoes or the dreaded black flies.  We took it a step farther.  My wife has made netting jackets, complete with hood, for us and our kids.  Leggin’s too, so we can wear shorts in heavy duty bug country.

        I’ve seen commercially made net jackets as well.  You’re supposed to soak the whole thing in DEET between wearings.  Probably best for stationary, high-bug activities like fishing.  I think Bean’s has them.

Response:

I noticed a hat with mosquito netting draped over the face and neck, kind of like a beekeepers bonnet, in an REI catalog. Has anyone tried one of these hats?

        A lightweight approach to physical insect barriers is a plain headnet of no-se-um mesh (looks like a stuff sack, complete with neck drawcord;  about 1 oz. and $5 at Campmor and other places).  It helps to wear a hat underneath (any kind will do) to cover the top of the head and hold the netting away from the face.  Yes, it dims the view a bit, but it keeps the bugs away.  The only tricky part is eating.  ;-)         A caveat;  just because the bugs can’t get to you doesn’t mean they won’t try.  I tried to sleep once in headnet and bivy sack and was kept awake all night by the high-frequency buzzing in my ears.  Next time, I’ll remember my earplugs, but I did get some wonderful pictures of the dawn.  ;-) -bill "I hate the stench of insect repellent" faus

        Likewise.  I’ll almost always choose long clothing and headnet over sun block and bug repellent.

Response:

So many people in the last few months have been recommending B-1 to ward off mosquitos in the last few months that I’m ready to try it, BUT no posting that I’ve seen yet has had *anything* to say about the question "How much is LOTS?" A common size that I’ve seen for B-1 only tablets is 100 mg, which is 6667% of the US RDA.  Does 100 mg/day qualify as LOTS?

        Yeah, I’d say that’d be sufficient!         I have used it in previous years, and it seems to work ok. Takes about a week to take effect though, and you have to remember to take it every day. It’s not foolproof, but does seem to cut into the population of bugs. EXPERIMENT!                                                         -Pat Salsbury

Response:

I remember being eaten alive in the Wind River Range in Wyoming one spring, in spite of lashings of industrial-strength repellent. At least I had the pleasure of killing 10-20 mozzies in one swat! I met a grizzled old fellow who had been camping in the area for 50 years, and he was totally oblivious to the little monsters.

Name of Finis Mitchell, by any chance? Mitchell Peak in the Cirque of the Towers is named after him. I’ve met him too, totally oblivious to mosquitos feeding on his face, telling us about places around about. That was seven or eight years ago – I wonder if he’s still alive and hiking. He was getting up there… but he was in better shape than I.                                                         Jeff Winslow

Response:

I noticed a hat with mosquito netting draped over the face and neck, kind of like a beekeepers bonnet, in an REI catalog. Has anyone tried one of these hats? Yes, I have used one in Alaska and in the Cascades.  They are hot, they interfere with vision, and are generally obnoxious.

I haven’t seen the REI version, but mine is coarser than no-see-um netting. Highly recommended. It is comfortable, doesn’t interfere w/vision (I find my self enjoying the scenery adequately, though prefer the bugless unimpeded world), and is a very welcome addition to the checklist. Perhaps the above poster is using too fine a mesh ? —

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Have you tried eating LOTS of garlic &/or vitamin B1 for awhile before your trip? They say if you’ve got it oozing out of your pores, the bugs won’t like it. Your friends will be another problem.

So many people in the last few months have been recommending B-1 to ward off mosquitos in the last few months that I’m ready to try it, BUT no posting that I’ve seen yet has had *anything* to say about the question "How much is LOTS?" A common size that I’ve seen for B-1 only tablets is 100 mg, which is 6667% of the US RDA.  Does 100 mg/day qualify as LOTS? More? Should I be choking it down by the wheelbarrow load? Can someone give me an order of magnitude here? Thanks!                                 — Dave Alexander — "When I was a little boy in Baltimore in 1954, I wanted  to be a juvenile delinquent when I grew up."                                 — John Waters

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|   Yes!  They [mosquito net hats] work.  They’re slightly annoying to | wear, altho not as annoying as swarming mosquitoes or the dreaded | black flies.  We took it a step farther.  My wife has made netting | jackets, complete with hood, for us and our kids.  Leggin’s too, so | we can wear shorts in heavy duty bug country. I found a simple way to keep the little buggers from biting through my shirt that doesn’t require any fancy sewing skills.  I got an athletic style mesh T-shirt (looks like it’s made of fine fish net) and I wear it underneath a normal long sleve shirt.  This holds the shirt away from my skin by ~1mm making it difficult for the skeeters to reach me. Works great so long as the temperature isn’t too high. —    Advanced Micro Devices       N5PSS    Austin, Texas                1-(512)-462-5389 "You can’t leap a chasm in two jumps."

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I noticed a hat with mosquito netting draped over the face…. Has anyone tried one of these hats?

My wife brought a couple of these from Canada to New Zealand. You look like a real twit, but at least your a happy twit. To my regret, peering through all that gauze makes fly-fishing impossible. She laughs, I suffer. -bill "I hate the stench of insect repellent" faus

Have you tried eating LOTS of garlic &/or vitamin B1 for awhile before your trip? They say if you’ve got it oozing out of your pores, the bugs won’t like it. Your friends will be another problem. —

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I noticed a hat with mosquito netting draped over the face and neck, kind of like a beekeepers bonnet, in an REI catalog. Has anyone tried one of these hats?

Yes, I have used one in Alaska and in the Cascades.  They are hot, they interfere with vision, and are generally obnoxious.  However they stop all the mosquitos, and also things like deer flies and black flies that aren’t impressed by DEET.  And save you from corroding your skin with noxious chemicals.  I still carry it whenever I go to particularly fierce bug country.                                 Chuck Smythe

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All this got me thinking though, how did people sleeping outdoors in the olden days keep the biting bugs away?  

I’ve heard of people in the old days smearing their skin with mud, but have never tried it as a bug repellent. I’ve also heard that you can develop an immunity to your local mosquitoes, so that you’d still get bitten, but not get as irritated as an outsider would. I remember being eaten alive in the Wind River Range in Wyoming one spring, in spite of lashings of industrial-strength repellent. At least I had the pleasure of killing 10-20 mozzies in one swat! I met a grizzled old fellow who had been camping in the area for 50 years, and he was totally oblivious to the little monsters. —

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I noticed a hat with mosquito netting draped over the face and neck, kind of like a beekeepers bonnet, in an REI catalog. Has anyone tried one of these hats?

  Yes!  They work.  They’re slightly annoying to wear, altho not as annoying as swarming mosquitoes or the dreaded black flies.  We took it a step farther.  My wife has made netting jackets, complete with hood, for us and our kids.  Leggin’s too, so we can wear shorts in heavy duty bug country. -bill "I hate the stench of insect repellent" faus

– And little Sir John with his nut brown bowl        Tony Wesley/RPT Software                 And his brandy in the glass        voice: (313) 274-2080           Proved the strongest man at last…    Compu$erve: 72770,2053

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On a related subject, I noticed a hat with mosquito netting draped over the face and neck, kind of like a beekeepers bonnet, in an REI catalog. Has anyone tried one of these hats? -bill "I hate the stench of insect repellent" faus

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Jeff Haferman  how did people sleeping outdoors in Jeff Haferman  the olden days keep the biting bugs away? Before the invention of Avon Skin-So-Soft, the ultimate mosquito repellent, we smeared our skin with a mixture of bison grease and wood ashes.  We also migrated from the bug infested banks of the Great Water to higher, dryer ground during the worst of the mosquito season.

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All this got me thinking though, how did people sleeping outdoors in the olden days keep the biting bugs away?  

They only bathed once a month.

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All this got me thinking though, how did people sleeping outdoors in the olden days keep the biting bugs away?  

Not wash for months at a time?

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I slept beneath the stars on the banks of the Mississippi this weekend, and it was beautiful, with 1 exception – I neglected to bring any mosquito repellent.  I covered my head with a thick sweater and this worked pretty well except I would get too hot and have to remove it. Sleeping near the campfire worked pretty well too since the smoke seemed to keep the bugs away. All this got me thinking though, how did people sleeping outdoors in the olden days keep the biting bugs away?   Department of Mechanical Engineering University of Iowa Iowa City IA  52240

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