Question:

Hey all, Just a quick question on the use of the float and fly.  How many of you guys use it, and how have you done?  I just bought a new rod and reel strictly for Float and Fly fishing.  I tie all my own float and fly jigs using Fox hair and Daiichi hooks.  I stick with 1/32 and 1/16 ounce.  So far I have caught a bunch of smallies and about a 6.5lb Channel cat, and of course (if you live on the Winnebago system) some sheepshead. Just thought I would "fish" for comments on the float and fly. Take care all and tight lines, Chris Rennert Oshkosh, WI

Response:

I use it some in cold water, but not a tremendous amount. I’ve caught some nice fish with it — mostly smallies. Never anything huge though. Charlie Nuckols — the man credited with popularizing the technique, if not actually devising it — was a great friend of mine, and a truly awesome smallmouth fisherman. He preached the float ‘n’ fly gospel to me, so I learned it from the best. But I never had the knack for it that he showed. I just bought a new rod and reel strictly for Float and Fly fishing.

9 footer? RichZ

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I seem to miss alot of posts these days, and am wondering how well my own posts go out. If you see this post directly, could you please email me? Also, up until about 4 replies, could you also reply on ROFF and include the full text? If you don’t receive my post directly but see it on ROFF included in someone else’s reply, could you please email me that you didn’t receive it? Thanks in advance, Jon.

Response:

I think I can see it… no wait, that’s not it. Nevermind. — SaltyWaders "Old eyes can’t see shit…"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I seem to miss alot of posts these days, and am wondering how well my own posts go out. If you see this post directly, could you please email me? Also, up until about 4 replies, could you also reply on ROFF and include the full text? If you don’t receive my post directly but see it on ROFF included in someone else’s reply, could you please email me that you didn’t receive it? Thanks in advance, Jon.

Response:

What post? Wolfgang

Response:

I seem to miss alot of posts these days, and am wondering how well my own posts go out. If you see this post directly, could you please email me? Also, up until about 4 replies, could you also reply on ROFF and include the full text? If you don’t receive my post directly but see it on ROFF included in someone else’s reply, could you please email me that you didn’t receive it? Thanks in advance, Jon.

I see it directly.  I just changed my ISP because of dropped messages and other newsgroups problems.

Response:

I saw it.                   Tom L

Response:

[This followup was posted to rec.outdoors.fishing.fly and a copy was sent to the cited author.] Saw it here. I seem to miss alot of posts these days, and am wondering how well my own posts go out. If you see this post directly, could you please email me? Also, up until about 4 replies, could you also reply on ROFF and include the full text? If you don’t receive my post directly but see it on ROFF included in someone else’s reply, could you please email me that you didn’t receive it? Thanks in advance, Jon.

– Charles Davis    K4SWB <I’m The NRA

Response:

If you see this post directly, could you please email me? Also, up until about 4 replies, could you also reply on ROFF and include the full text? If you don’t receive my post directly but see it on ROFF included in someone else’s reply, could you please email me that you didn’t receive it? Thanks in advance, Jon

I saw it.  Didn

Question:

excerpt from xmision.com’s acceptable use policy "The posting of any advertisement or other commercial solicitation to any newsgroup or mailing list is strictly prohibited, except in the few areas specifically reserved for such postings."

How exactly was announcing the creation of a new Utah related fly fishing site a ‘commercial solicitation?’  The site’s not trying to sell anything. Cut the guy some slack.

Response:

I did. He posted a message earlier in the week and neither I nor anyone else commented. This is his second post within a week. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – excerpt from xmision.com’s acceptable use policy "The posting of any advertisement or other commercial solicitation to any newsgroup or mailing list is strictly prohibited, except in the few areas specifically reserved for such postings." How exactly was announcing the creation of a new Utah related fly fishing site a ‘commercial solicitation?’  The site’s not trying to sell anything. Cut the guy some slack.

Response:

New fly fishing website just launched… http://www.utahonthefly.com/

Response:

So your announcement last week wasn’t the real opening excerpt from xmision.com’s acceptable use policy "The posting of any advertisement or other commercial solicitation to any newsgroup or mailing list is strictly prohibited, except in the few areas specifically reserved for such postings." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – New fly fishing website just launched… http://www.utahonthefly.com/

Response:

Question:

I recently moved to Glendora, and I know of the west fork in the San Gabriel Canyon, but I wanted to know if there were any other close spots to fly fish. Also if any parts of the SG river have smallmouth bass or sunfish in them. Thanks alot.

Response:

You can fly fish in many spots, the further you go NORTH or in ALTITUDE the better your chances of good fishing.   Try the Kern wilderness, the Big-Bear area and also the San-Bernardino Park system. You can find more info and links at www.troutworld.com Good Luck, Jeff Gray – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recently moved to Glendora, and I know of the west fork in the San Gabriel Canyon, but I wanted to know if there were any other close spots to fly fish. Also if any parts of the SG river have smallmouth bass or sunfish in them. Thanks alot.

Response:

Question:

Day Tripper: <<The bathroom, however, is acceptable. Though I’ll bet GINK would keep up what’s trying to go down therein, XINK would be the more logical choice ;^) Uh, first put some water in a bucket, Dave.  Then squirt just a little Xink in and watch the oil stain spread.  I wouldn’t want it in my septic system. Dave LaCourse

Response:

hey, if your ginked cdc works, USE it!!   8}  Who are we to judge?? trout – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Y’know….you’d think at some time, youse guys would just plain GIVE IT UP…. there’s no convincing some people about the merits of doing something or not doing something that THEY WANT TO DO…that’s why so many people still smoke, still drive without seatbelts, still shoot heroin, still drink to excess and still wet wade in waters with leeches in them…..speaking words of wisdom, LET IT FU( BE!!! I use CDC extensively, I’d never dress it…..I use Gink occasionally, I’d never say it’s a cure all, but whatever floats your boat…..just stop floating it here, okay??? Larry #:)#

Response:

Wolfgang: <<Seems to me that since the offending parties were indeed engaged in exercising one of their personal freedoms any call for them to cease is in FACT an effort to limit that personal freedom.  The answer to the problem is obvious, nicht wahr?  It’s right there in the excerpt above; "…rest of us don’t NEED watch."  You certainly DON’T need to watch.  Simply refrain from putting the cursor on any posting in the thread and clicking!  If anyone was pissing on my porch I would NOT hold out a cup to catch it. Priceless.  Thanks you.  <g Dave LaCourse

Response:

My shoes are fine Larry . My definition of Fly Fishing is a bit broader than yours. The brainless part is disturbing though. Hm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hey Harry- FLYFISHING?? You call this crap flyfishing??  C’mon…the discussion about nymphing and patterns and mooneyes and waders was about ff’ing….not this endless tirade. If you consider a 50+ post back and forth that says basically nothing more than "yes it does, No it doesn’t" a discussion about flyfishing, then more power to you…as far as I’m concerned, it’s contains no more substance than an argument between the eight year olds that live on my street arguing about superman vs spiderman….the "discussion" has been limited to basically four participants, saying the same thing over and over and I can’t see where any of them have taken the issue streamside to prove it under FLYFISHING conditions…..I don’t fish in my lab, bathroom, kitchen or anywhere else in my house and I don’t think many others do either. Yeah, it’s WONDERFUL that people will be inspired to try something new….but if they were so brainless in the past that they weren’t willing to experiment without given the "intelectual stimulation" provided by an Internet Newsgroup, well…..like I said, for me at least, ENOUGH is ENOUGH. And so a lot of people say there’s too much freedom. When personal freedom’s being abused, you have to move to limit it. The intent of my message was not a call to limit personal freedom, but if these boys want to have a pissin’ contest, there’s no need for them to do it on the porch in front of everybody else….no limitations involved, they can piss all they want, but the rest of us don’t NEED to watch.  "D" key aside, it’s alot of traffic….so let them pull off to the side of the roadway and wash each others shoes. Larry #:)#

When we got organized as a country and we wrote a fairly radical Constitution with a radical Bill of Rights, giving a radical amount of individual freedom to Americans, it was assumed that the Americans who had that freedom would use it responsibly…. [However, now] there’s a lot of irresponsibility. And so a lot of people say there’s too much freedom. When personal freedom’s being abused, you have to move to limit it. President Bill Clinton, 3-22-94, MTV’s "Enough is Enough"

Response:

daytripper signed off:/daytripper (owner/operator of Daytripper Laboratories, Ltd) When you decide to get rid of your lab, may I suggest being absorbed by BDHR,Ltd. This huge multinational conglomerate seems to be buying off a lot of smaller companies and everyone seems to enjoy being associated with Beer Drinkers and Hell Raisers. Big Dale

Response:

If you consider a 50+ post back and forth that says basically nothing more than "yes it does, No it doesn’t" a discussion about flyfishing, then more power to you…as far as I’m concerned, it’s contains no more substance than an argument between the eight year olds that live on my street arguing about superman vs spiderman….

[snipped lengthy contribution] I don’t know whether to retort with "Yes it does" or "No it doesn’t", so pick one and consider it my rejoinder ;^) /daytripper

Response:

…look at all the takes with this CDC feather thread?  It’s driven men to set up kitchen laboratories. [snip] George, there are some things I just won’t do – and introducing GINK (or XINK) to my kitchen is one of those things. The bathroom, however, is acceptable. Though I’ll bet GINK would keep up what’s trying to go down therein, XINK would be the more logical choice ;^) /daytripper (owner/operator of Daytripper Laboratories, Ltd)

Should that be Daytripper Lavatories, Unlimited? Doug Knight

Response:

…look at all the takes with this CDC feather thread?  It’s driven men to set up kitchen laboratories.

[snip] George, there are some things I just won’t do – and introducing GINK (or XINK) to my kitchen is one of those things. The bathroom, however, is acceptable. Though I’ll bet GINK would keep up what’s trying to go down therein, XINK would be the more logical choice ;^) /daytripper (owner/operator of Daytripper Laboratories, Ltd)

Response:

 snipped concern: I use CDC extensively, I’d never dress it…..I use Gink occasionally, I’d never say it’s a cure all, but whatever floats your boat…..just stop floating it here, okay??? Larry #:)#

with this CDC feather thread?  It’s driven men to set up kitchen laboratories.  Imagine that!?   I think I’ve caught my limit ten times over on this troll.  I normally don’t drag a fly through the water.   Thank goodness I’m a Catch and Release purist, otherwise, we’d run out of these ‘free risers’ on The Great Roff River. And No, "I’m NOT the World’s Best"  I wish those that think so would learn not to take this  too seriously.– we’re good, but not that good. Mr. G. "We’re just a little bit better"  (JUST KIDDING!)  Golly!  Loosen up everyone! ; )  a smile is worth more then money and  A Ginked Fly is a Happy Fly.

Response:

floating CDC flies in their cocktails tonight. What’s the harm for Christ sake?  I could care less if it was Gink or Mink oil, these guys experimented and stated the results they got , your mileage and mine may and will vary . No big deal.  I will bet more will put something on their CDC flies in the future …just because someone said…never. I kinda like that sprit.They may not float worth a shit but at least they tried something on their own that everyone said was foolish. Harry

; )  Tight Lines Harry. — Mr. G.

Response:

Hey Harry- FLYFISHING?? You call this crap flyfishing??  C’mon…the discussion about nymphing and patterns and mooneyes and waders was about ff’ing….not this endless tirade. If you consider a 50+ post back and forth that says basically nothing more than "yes it does, No it doesn’t" a discussion about flyfishing, then more power to you…as far as I’m concerned, it’s contains no more substance than an argument between the eight year olds that live on my street arguing about superman vs spiderman….the "discussion" has been limited to basically four participants, saying the same thing over and over and I can’t see where any of them have taken the issue streamside to prove it under FLYFISHING conditions…..I don’t fish in my lab, bathroom, kitchen or anywhere else in my house and I don’t think many others do either. Yeah, it’s WONDERFUL that people will be inspired to try something new….but if they were so brainless in the past that they weren’t willing to experiment without given the "intelectual stimulation" provided by an Internet Newsgroup, well…..like I said, for me at least, ENOUGH is ENOUGH. And so a lot of people say there’s too much freedom. When personal freedom’s being abused, you have to move to limit it.

The intent of my message was not a call to limit personal freedom, but if these boys want to have a pissin’ contest, there’s no need for them to do it on the porch in front of everybody else….no limitations involved, they can piss all they want, but the rest of us don’t NEED to watch.  "D" key aside, it’s alot of traffic….so let them pull off to the side of the roadway and wash each others shoes. Larry #:)#

Response:

LJMARM: (mercifully snipped) <<well…..like I said, for me at least, ENOUGH is ENOUGH. Then why, pray tell, do you keep adding to the thread?  <g Dave LaCourse

Response:

Amen to that Larry,  the involved participants should take it to E-mail. There is another cure,  I simply filter it out but my filter list is beginning to get longer than my arm. Ernie Harrison Like to make fly-fishing stuff?  See: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey Harry- The intent of my message was not a call to limit personal freedom, but if these boys want to have a pissin’ contest, there’s no need for them to do it on the porch in front of everybody else….no limitations involved, they can piss all they want, but the rest of us don’t NEED to watch.  "D" key aside, it’s alot of traffic….so let them pull off to the side of the roadway and wash each others shoes. Larry #:)#

Response:

<snip The intent of my message was not a call to limit personal freedom, but if these boys want to have a pissin’ contest, there’s no need for them to do it on the porch in front of everybody else….no limitations involved, they can piss all they want, but the rest of us don’t NEED to watch.

<snip Seems to me that since the offending parties were indeed engaged in exercising one of their personal freedoms any call for them to cease is in FACT an effort to limit that personal freedom.  The answer to the problem is obvious, nicht wahr?  It’s right there in the excerpt above; "…rest of us don’t NEED watch."  You certainly DON’T need to watch.  Simply refrain from putting the cursor on any posting in the thread and clicking!  If anyone was pissing on my porch I would NOT hold out a cup to catch it.

Response:

Y’know….you’d think at some time, youse guys would just plain GIVE IT UP…. there’s no convincing some people about the merits of doing something or not doing something that THEY WANT TO DO…that’s why so many people still smoke, still drive without seatbelts, still shoot heroin, still drink to excess and still wet wade in waters with leeches in them…..speaking words of wisdom, LET IT FU( BE!!! I use CDC extensively, I’d never dress it…..I use Gink occasionally, I’d never say it’s a cure all, but whatever floats your boat…..just stop floating it here, okay??? Larry #:)#

Hey Larry,      was a time when fishing down stream was frowned on. Beads still be lures or jigs but folks tye and buy them by the ton and still call it Fly fishing. My point being you scream when the thread is not about FF’ing , this one is and you  still   yell.   If the stuff floats the fucking bug (mine) then so much the better what’s the big deal. If it does not, then so be it, but these guys are a least trying something that maybe new to others here and for that I think they deserve a bit  of all right. At the very least it had folks floating CDC flies in their cocktails tonight. What’s the harm for Christ sake?  I could care less if it was Gink or Mink oil, these guys experimented and stated the results they got , your mileage and mine may and will vary . No big deal.  I will bet more will put something on their CDC flies in the future …just because someone said…never. I kinda like that sprit.They may not float worth a shit but at least they tried something on their own that everyone said was foolish. Harry When we got organized as a country and we wrote a fairly radical Constitution with a radical Bill of Rights, giving a radical amount of individual freedom to Americans, it was assumed that the Americans who had that freedom would use it responsibly…. [However, now] there’s a lot of irresponsibility. And so a lot of people say there’s too much freedom. When personal freedom’s being abused, you have to move to limit it. President Bill Clinton, 3-22-94, MTV’s "Enough is Enough"

Response:

Y’know….you’d think at some time, youse guys would just plain GIVE IT UP…. there’s no convincing some people about the merits of doing something or not doing something that THEY WANT TO DO…that’s why so many people still smoke, still drive without seatbelts, still shoot heroin, still drink to excess and still wet wade in waters with leeches in them…..speaking words of wisdom, LET IT FU( BE!!! I use CDC extensively, I’d never dress it…..I use Gink occasionally, I’d never say it’s a cure all, but whatever floats your boat…..just stop floating it here, okay??? Larry #:)#

Response:

Question:

We are planning on a trip – Montreal to Vancouver would appreciate comments regarding best road route to use. CGs also please. Trip about May / June this year. Is this too early, don’t want snow. Thanks and greetings to all Aubrey

Response:

Shouldn’t have many concerns about snow in May, June. I’ll bet you would enjoy the Trans Canada Highway. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are planning on a trip – Montreal to Vancouver would appreciate comments regarding best road route to use. CGs also please. Trip about May / June this year. Is this too early, don’t want snow. Thanks and greetings to all Aubrey

Response:

Having done the trip I would suggest Hwy 17 from Montreal to Winnipeg then the Yellowhead Hwy from Winnipeg to BC via Regina and Edmonton then back down to Hwy 1 for the trip to Banff and down into Vancouver.  When travelling in Northern Ontario you should focus on the Provincial Park system around the top of Lake Superior, the campgrounds are beautiful and serviced.  Early May could be a problem for open campgrounds but the end of May and June will be fine except for BLACK FLIES which MAY – MAY be bad from time to time. Its beautiful countryside, enjoy. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -We are planning on a trip – Montreal to Vancouver would appreciate comments regarding best road route to use.

Response:

We are planning on a trip – Montreal to Vancouver would appreciate comments regarding best road route to use. CGs also please. Trip about May / June this year. Is this too early, don’t want snow. Thanks and greetings to all Aubrey

    Well there was the time,west of Calgaryt in mid May 1985, that we got caught in an unexpected Spring snowstorm that reduce highway #1 down to one lane through really wet ,heavy stuff.  We arrived in Calgary and headed North where there had been no snow at all.    Last year we visited Jasper in mid May and everything was extremely dry.   This year Edmonton has had tons of snow but it’s so dry South of Red Deer that some areas have had grass fires.    Go for it but be prepared for anything, at least an RV will give you the option of getting off the road if the weather gets bad.    I concur with Bill on not missing the Jasper -Banff highway. Most people here say that the North to South route is easier for heavy vehicles and most of the best view points are on that side of the road.   Happy camping. Roy Schmaus http://www.ee.ualberta.ca/~schmaus/

Response:

Having done the trip I would suggest Hwy 17 from Montreal to Winnipeg then the Yellowhead Hwy from Winnipeg to BC via Regina and Edmonton then back

This is good advice, however the Yellowhead will miss Regina.  Missing Regina is a good thing.   (Prepare yourself – sales pitch for Saskatchewan approaching) The Yellowhead will take you through Yorkton, Saskatoon & North Battleford.  Within three hours to the north of any of these cities are some beautiful parks that could be destinations for your trip.  I realize you want to "see Canada" but you really should take the time to travel to Waskesiu.  If you like golfing (which I don’t) it has a course that ranks with any in Canada.  It is a national park so you get the wildlife thing (elk, deer, bear).  We don’t consider it good fishing (because it is so much better if you go a little further north) but most north americans would.  There is a good full service campground as well as a large area with electric only sites or unserviced sites.  I believe they have something over 300 sites in total.  Just outside the park at Elk Ridge is a brand new full service RV park attached to an 18 hole golf course. If you get past Waskesiu into northern Saskatchewan you can find everything from fully serviced to fully primitive camping.  You can fly into some of the best freshwater fishing in the world.  If you know where to go you can drive to some pretty damn good fishing.  Just drop me even the slightest hint that you are interested and I will deluge you with information. Once you get past Saskatchewan it is all downhill but there are some sort of pretty spots.   :-} There’s the obvious stuff that everyone goes to – Banff, L.Louise, Jasper, Columbia Icefields.  Off the beaten path a bit there are some really nice spots.  We like the Kootenay Valley – there is a park on the east shore of Kootenay Lake that we like – I think it is Whispering Cedars or something like that.  On the other side of Kootenay lake don’t miss the historic town of Kaslo and the ghost town of Sandon.  There are natural hot springs at Nakusp and at Ainsworth. Another lovely area is the Sicamous lakes around Salmon Arm, BC.   Just make sure not to miss Saskatchewan.

Response:

That time of the year should be fine.  Canada is no colder than the upper U.S. and we did away with our igloos some time ago.  You only have one direct route here if you want to come right across and that is Hwy #1 the Trans Canada Highway.  Very pretty drive once you enter Alberta and British Columbia.  This route takes you through Banff and the interior of British columbia which at that time of the year gets into the high 80s.  Have a nice trip and enjoy Canada. Rick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are planning on a trip – Montreal to Vancouver would appreciate comments regarding best road route to use. CGs also please. Trip about May / June this year. Is this too early, don’t want snow. Thanks and greetings to all Aubrey

Response:

That time of the year should be fine.  Canada is no colder than the upper U.S. We are planning on a trip – Montreal to Vancouver would appreciate comments regarding best road route to use. CGs also please. Trip about May / June this year. Is this too early, don’t want snow.

You shouldn’t have any trouble. I took the train across Canada one year from Cape Breton Island, NS to Hazelton, BC and back, in March, and saw little snow. Today I drove halfway up the west coast of Newfoundland and there was no snow on the highway. Bet you’ll have a great trip in May/June. But just the same, keep an eye on the weather. Here’s one of my favourite weather websites:                 http://icons.wunderground.com/global/CN_ST_Index.html Doug

Response:

And mighty fine ones at that!  Born and raised there myself.  What more need be said. : ) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Someone once said that the best way to see Saskatchewan is in your rear view mirror! I can’t let that pass but I don’t know what else to say except that our biggest export is people.

Response:

Someone once said that the best way to see Saskatchewan is in your rear view mirror!

I can’t let that pass but I don’t know what else to say except that our biggest export is people.

Response:

Someone once said that the best way to see Saskatchewan is in your rear view mirror! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Having done the trip I would suggest Hwy 17 from Montreal to Winnipeg then the Yellowhead Hwy from Winnipeg to BC via Regina and Edmonton then back This is good advice, however the Yellowhead will miss Regina.  Missing Regina is a good thing. (Prepare yourself – sales pitch for Saskatchewan approaching) The Yellowhead will take you through Yorkton, Saskatoon & North Battleford.  Within three hours to the north of any of these cities are some beautiful parks that could be destinations for your trip.  I realize you want to "see Canada" but you really should take the time to travel to Waskesiu.  If you like golfing (which I don’t) it has a course that ranks with any in Canada.  It is a national park so you get the wildlife thing (elk, deer, bear).  We don’t consider it good fishing (because it is so much better if you go a little further north) but most north americans would.  There is a good full service campground as well as a large area with electric only sites or unserviced sites.  I believe they have something over 300 sites in total.  Just outside the park at Elk Ridge is a brand new full service RV park attached to an 18 hole golf course. If you get past Waskesiu into northern Saskatchewan you can find everything from fully serviced to fully primitive camping.  You can fly into some of the best freshwater fishing in the world.  If you know where to go you can drive to some pretty damn good fishing.  Just drop me even the slightest hint that you are interested and I will deluge you with information. Once you get past Saskatchewan it is all downhill but there are some sort of pretty spots.   :-} There’s the obvious stuff that everyone goes to – Banff, L.Louise, Jasper, Columbia Icefields.  Off the beaten path a bit there are some really nice spots.  We like the Kootenay Valley – there is a park on the east shore of Kootenay Lake that we like – I think it is Whispering Cedars or something like that.  On the other side of Kootenay lake don’t miss the historic town of Kaslo and the ghost town of Sandon.  There are natural hot springs at Nakusp and at Ainsworth. Another lovely area is the Sicamous lakes around Salmon Arm, BC. Just make sure not to miss Saskatchewan.

Response:

Question:

        i would have preferred to send this communication on an email basis;  but we are too many for that.         finally, i hope that i am not too late to change the mind of one of the best of us; i hope that our english will reconsider, and stand with the rest of us, from timbo to jimbo, to….(god help me) ralph h,

God has helped me and I am sure he will help you as well.. Ralph H

Response:

<A bunch of nice stuff Usenet tradition addresses a good many of the problems that led to our brouhaha. I’m going to append the Welcome to Usenet from news.announce.newusers. Anyone that comes to a Usenet newsgroup should be able to expect a level of respect and decorum. Everyone from an 11 year old looking at flyfishing for the first time to a 60 year old with a closet full of degrees. We shoot the bull, swap tall tales and start to feel like we’re the Famous Grouse Good Old Boy’s Club, but we’re not. We are a Usenet newsgroup and in a junior high computer lab somewhere an 11 year old is getting a decidedly unfair advantage over his peers. I mean, imagine, swearing lessons from the great George Gehrke himself delivered straight to the screen. The kid will be a scourge and I hope his mom doesn’t ask where he learned that ! "The resources of civilization against its enemies are not exhausted."                                                         -Gladstone- Ken Fortenberry Welcome to Usenet!  The newsgroup news.announce.newusers contains a lot of introductory information about Usenet.  All new users should read and fully understand all the documents in news.announce.newusers before trying to post messages to Usenet or create new Usenet groups.  This may take a while, but it will help you find your way around Usenet much more easily. This short message is repeated three times a week to ensure that it is always available on your news system.  All other documents in news.announce.newusers are repeated every two weeks and should stay around for at least a month.  If you find news.announce.newusers empty (or cannot figure out how to read documents in it), please contact the help desk, customer support or news administrator on the computer system or service that you’re using and ask them for help.  Please do not send me e-mail asking for help reading news on your computer system or service. Please do not try to post or send any messages to news.announce.newusers. This is the list of the documents that news.announce.newusers should contain:         What is Usenet?         What is Usenet?  A second opinion.         Rules for posting to Usenet         Hints on writing style for Usenet         A Primer on How to Work With the Usenet Community         Emily Postnews Answers Your Questions on Netiquette         How to find the right place to post (FAQ)         Introduction to news.announce         A Guide to Social Newsgroups and Mailing Lists         Introduction to the *.answers newsgroups         FAQs about FAQs         Anonymous FTP: Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) List         Advertising on Usenet: How To Do It, How Not To Do It         Copyright Myths FAQ: 10 big myths about copyright explained         Answers to Frequently Asked Questions about Usenet         How to Get Information about Networks         How to become a Usenet site         Usenet Software: History and Sources         Guidelines on Usenet Newsgroup Names         How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup If you don’t see any of these documents in the newsgroup, you can ask for them by sending mail to with the following in the body of the message.  Note the address carefully; please do NOT send these requests to me. setdir usenet-by-group/news.announce.newusers send What_is_Usenet? send What_is_Usenet?__A_second_opinion. send Rules_for_posting_to_Usenet send Hints_on_writing_style_for_Usenet send A_Primer_on_How_to_Work_With_the_Usenet_Community send Emily_Postnews_Answers_Your_Questions_on_Netiquette send How_to_find_the_right_place_to_post_(FAQ) send Introduction_to_news.announce send A_Guide_to_Social_Newsgroups_and_Mailing_Lists send Introduction_to_the_*.answers_newsgroups send FAQs_about_FAQs send Anonymous_FTP:_Frequently_Asked_Questions_(FAQ)_List send Advertising_on_Usenet:_How_To_Do_It,_How_Not_To_Do_It send Copyright_Myths_FAQ:_10_big_myths_about_copyright_explained send Answers_to_Frequently_Asked_Questions_about_Usenet send FAQ:_How_to_find_people_s_E-mail_addresses send How_to_Get_Information_about_Networks send How_to_become_a_Usenet_site send Usenet_Software:_History_and_Sources send Guidelines_on_Usenet_Newsgroup_Names send How_to_Create_a_New_Usenet_Newsgroup quit You can also find these documents on the World Wide Web;  see         http://www.netannounce.org/news.announce.newusers/

Response:

        some observations:  it appears to me, unscientifically, that the postings to this group have undergone a massive increase in the last couple months.  the influx of newcomers has included some very bizarre, often unpleasant contributors.  many of the newbies have failed to understand (understandably) some of george gerkhe’s posts, and the wierdness thereof.  confrontations have been engendered thereby.  furthermore, the tendency of many to engage in what i will always contend are the only taboos (politics and religion) have contributed to the confrontational atmosphere.  this is a wonderful, but fragile, environment.  by my best count, there are more than fifty souls that emit consistently high levels of humor, insight, information, life advice, and all around bullshit, on a daily basis. many of us have made friends here.         but growth carries with it certain problems.  some folks don’t assimilate as comfortably as others.  some folks have no patience with the foibles of others, others who are fixtures in this group.  there comes a time when we must deal with the changes wrought by growth. one of those times has come, today.  one of the most intelligent, witty, and general good guys i have ever known has announced his intention to resign from this group.  that is truly unfortunate.  all of us hope that he will reconsider, find patience, and stay.  surely, though, this is a sufficient sign that we must discipline ourselves in the areas of communication that are most disruptive of the general good:  politics, and spam.         in short, we must call upon george to cease his relentless spamming.  i have come to consider the man a friend of mine; but we can no longer wink at george’s excesses while tearing the stranger limb from limb for less offensive posts.         i would have preferred to send this communication on an email basis;  but we are too many for that.           finally, i hope that i am not too late to change the mind of one of the best of us; i hope that our english will reconsider, and stand with the rest of us, from timbo to jimbo, from ken to ken, from charlie to yankee dave, from snedeker to the royal wulff, from fletcher (who is too silent for our own good) to (god help me) ralph h, to jon, the father of us all.  from waldo and john (not ever annis) popp, and all the rest of us,  the waynes and mark, and tom…         stick with us, connor. wayno  

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Question:

Hi, Intested to know if there is some good trout streams within a 1 to 2 hour drive of Cheyenne.  I maybe moving there and would like to know in advance if there are trout out and about. Thanks

Response:

There is some great lake fishing for trout within a short distance, just outside of Laramie. The Laramie is not bad, the Poudre and Big Thomson rivers in Colorado are good, and you will also be fairly near the North Platte Miracle Mile and Greys Reef sections, which can be awesome. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Intested to know if there is some good trout streams within a 1 to 2 hour drive of Cheyenne.  I maybe moving there and would like to know in advance if there are trout out and about. Thanks

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too much drugs.  :-) Hi Ken, You’ve got it all wrong! I called Tim a gentleman in another thread, although it was to do with the same subject. I never said he was *the* gentleman in the NG, but *a* gentleman for forgiving Max for what everyone else would have seen him hung drawn and quartered.  Tim has given out a lot of flack and certainly has taken some, not the least from you and J.P. He’s no angel but he is a GENTLEMAN for turning a blind eye to all Max has done.

I agree, but I wasn’t talking about you.  :-) I went back and found out who it was, it was "Mr G", Here’s the excerpt: "The gentleman turns around slowly with raised gray brows and smiles a strange sort of smile and says . . . "Get lost, punk." As the king said to Mozart, "You argue Mozart, but you fail to persuade."  Swearing is a lot like that, whereas, your arguments persuade because your logic and research is based on reason.  When the man turned and said, "Get lost, punk" (a form of swearing that will affect that child for the rest of his life regarding fly fishing, possibly) instead of, "Why hello, young man.  How are you today?  You ever fly fish?" is what the flow of your persona as a gentleman/fly fisherman wins the moment of your thread and all those who swore and cursed and spit foul words before you, today, lost.  " Now, do you believe that "the flow of [Tim's] persona" wins any moment of any thread?  He’s usually the first one in there swearing and cursing and spitting foul words. Written with no malice aforethought (a novelty for this NG)

None taken nor given. Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Response:

    I     Are you saying that Tim doesn’t swear and curse and spit foul words?     What newsgroup have you been reading?  This whole episode started     because Tim had to resort to swearing.             – Ken     —     Not speaking for anyone but myself       No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the   "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all   the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is   bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who   doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too   much drugs.  :-)

Blah Blah Blah, ENOUGH.  Prove that you know how to read by going back and re-examining Mr G’s (aka the Professional Sportsman) post. THEN take enough time to let it sink in that your first interpretation of his post is about 180 degrees out and that you’ve been arguing against someone who clearly agrees with you. Pentium inside eh? -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

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    I     Are you saying that Tim doesn’t swear and curse and spit foul words? Blah Blah Blah, ENOUGH.  Prove that you know how to read by going back and re-examining Mr G’s (aka the Professional Sportsman) post. THEN take enough time to let it sink in that your first interpretation of his post is about 180 degrees out and that you’ve been arguing against someone who clearly agrees with you.

If so, I’m wrong.  Please read what I first wrote (what I’ve left unsnipped above). I asked him for clarification about what he wrote. Note the question marks…I’ll stop now so that I don’t turn and begin to spit foul words.  :-) GRRR,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Response:

: No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the : "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all : the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is : bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who : doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too : much drugs.  :-) Sheesh Ken, read the post again.  By overlooking the actual message Gherke’s post, you are propogating an attitude.  He did not say what you claim he said. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

: No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the : "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all : the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is : bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who : doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too : much drugs.  :-) Sheesh Ken, read the post again.  By overlooking the actual message Gherke’s post, you are propogating an attitude.  He did not say what you claim he said.

I stand corrected.  I DID ask for a clarification, but then the thread wandered and I forgot the starting point.  There are just too many posts to try to keep up on all of them. Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My displeasure regards the pure, foul mouthing being allowed to permeate into this group.  It just isn’t right. I can imagine (bear with me) of your story about the fellow that taught you a lot astream recently Tim.  Let us all try and imagine therefore; the following. There is this sage looking gentleman with a pipe, tying on another fly as this kid watch in great admiration his skill in catching trout with such a long, graceful looking wand.  So the child walks up to the man and from behind him as his back is turned to the bank, he says, "Hey Mr.? Whatcha doing?" The gentleman turns around slowly with raised gray brows and smiles a strange sort of smile and says . . . "Get lost, punk." As the king said to Mozart, "You argue Mozart, but you fail to persuade."  Swearing is a lot like that, whereas, your arguments persuade because your logic and research is based on reason.  When the man turned and said, "Get lost, punk" (a form of swearing that will affect that child for the rest of his life regarding fly fishing, possibly) instead of, "Why hello, young man.  How are you today?  You ever fly fish?" is what the flow of your persona as a gentleman/fly fisherman wins the moment of your thread and all those who swore and cursed and spit foul words before you, today, lost.

Are you saying that Tim doesn’t swear and curse and spit foul words? What newsgroup have you been reading?  This whole episode started because Tim had to resort to swearing.      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Response:

  There are just too many posts to try to keep up on all of them.            - Ken

How about adopting the sensible policy of only replying to the threads that you _do_ "keep up on".  Failing that, how about warning readers when you are replying to an article you have not read or thought about… cheers,         -tony — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

Response:

Tim I don’t see how it is possible to "moderate" the group except by general consensus, ie. if someone oversteps the mark then the group excludes them to the extent that they give up and go elsewhere. If someone feels strongly enough to post a "fuck off" then OK, as long as it isn’t gratuitous. If you are insistent on creating a FAQ, (I don’t really consider it necessary, personally), then keep it to "frequently asked questions", why try and have rules that are unenforceable? General consensus will suffice. Personally, I still have reservations about Mr. Winters’ continued involvement with the group, time will tell if I am on my own on this one but, in my opinion, some valuable members have left as a result of his continued presence and this irks me. Maybe a few less Brits would suit some members of the group? Your apparent new found "sycophancy" worries me almost as much as the original "misdemeanours"! — Regards Peter (Please also reply by email, my server "loses" posts. Remove nospam to email) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s assume this FAQ TOC for starters… Fundamental Question before we start, I hope everyone checks in with an opinion on this fundamental tenet. Will the FAQ be building a different ROFF, i.e. "The Gentlemen’s Flyfishing Club"… (eg. "Fuck Off" – Excluded) or Will the FAQ acknowledge ROFF for what it is and provide complete protection for freedom of speech and expression thereof as far as it pertains to flyfishing ? (eg. "Fuck Off" – Protected) — To Max.  I hope that you’re still there. Further I hope you will follow up to this question and help us sort out what ROFF is so that what has happened to us will not happen to others.   The way I am viewing all of this [on this glorious Colorado morning] is that since we have no rules (written or otherwise) governing this newsgroup, than nobody could have possibily violated anything. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

Response:

Let’s assume this FAQ TOC for starters… Fundamental Question before we start, I hope everyone checks in with an opinion on this fundamental tenet. Will the FAQ be building a different ROFF, i.e. "The Gentlemen’s Flyfishing Club"… (eg. "Fuck Off" – Excluded)

Even more fundamental question, who decides what is "un-gentlemenly"? There are many ways to be vulgar and offensive without swearing. Is it okay to say: "F*ck off" "BS" "Bite me" "Bite my rod" I have not used an "offensive" word in the list above, the meaning is still there. If we say that none of these is acceptable, who is going to enforce it.  You say you will leave if this group becomes moderated, but short of moderation this decision is unenforceable. Let me try to put this in terms you will understand since I hear that you are a programmer.  You have coding style requirements. With the requirements alone, nothing changes, with moderate enforcement you get some change, but mostly only after the enforcement has happened upon your unfortunate soul, or you have heavy enforcement where if you don’t code properly your code doesn’t compile and won’t work until you fix the error. If you want "posting" standards the same will occur.  Write down a list of rules and don’t enforce and it means nothing. Enforce heavily and it will work, but you will have a moderator sitting there saying yah or nay to every post. Is this what you want?  I’m not in favor of moderation, but this is an academic exercise if you think writing down rules will change anything. or Will the FAQ acknowledge ROFF for what it is and provide complete protection for freedom of speech and expression thereof as far as it pertains to flyfishing ? (eg. "Fuck Off" – Protected)

This is status quo. I think the only way to "change" things is through individual policing. Think about how you personally are responding and whether or not you want to be seen the way your post makes you look.  There will always be abusive people on usenet, it’s your decision about how to respond to them.  For example, if someone, oh let’s see, calls someone a "fucking moron" you can respond in kind and get in a name-calling contest or ignore the post, or just snip out the line and continue with a semi-constructive argument.  It may not change the abusive poster, but at least things won’t turn into a complete brawl and you won’t be acting like a 2nd grader. I don’t know if this helped or not, but at least it made me feel slightly better (CRAPPY weekend). Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Response:

Umm…. ..are we gonna forget the charter and FAQ whilst everyone keeps pissing and moaning about Mr. G and what Tim REALLY meant and the rest of this Blah, Blah? I thought the "group" was serious about trying to get on track? Why don’t the limited number of you that want to continue griping about all the side issues find a chatroom to meet in and hammer this out between yourselves???

Response:

Let’s assume this FAQ TOC for starters… Fundamental Question before we start, I hope everyone checks in with an opinion on this fundamental tenet. Will the FAQ be building a different ROFF, i.e. "The Gentlemen’s Flyfishing Club"… (eg. "Fuck Off" – Excluded) or Will the FAQ acknowledge ROFF for what it is and provide complete protection for freedom of speech and expression thereof as far as it pertains to flyfishing ? (eg. "Fuck Off" – Protected) — To Max.  I hope that you’re still there. Further I hope you will follow up to this question and help us sort out what ROFF is so that what has happened to us will not happen to others.   The way I am viewing all of this [on this glorious Colorado morning] is that since we have no rules (written or otherwise) governing this newsgroup, than nobody could have possibily violated anything. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel… ROFF Charter  Purpose of NG  Goals of NG  Rules for posting to NG  Profanity  Selling  Attachments  When to respond to Writer rather than Group FAQ’s  Equipment  Rods and Reels  Float Devices  Nets  Vests  Lines  Leaders  Accessories  Clothing  Rain Gear  Hats  Waders/Boots  Guides  Tipping  Personal Experience Stories  Tying (see ROFFT) PERSONAL BIOs  Regular Frequent Posters  Known Commercial Posters  Known Frequently Medicated Posters

Response:

<nice post "Any fish bite if you got good bait… I’m a going fishin’ too".<g — Charlie…

Response:

Nice to see you back.  I still do not agree with most of what you say though. Chris Brown – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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<MERCILESS CHOP    The GOAL of this rather longish post is to help to get ROFF back on track <MERCILESS CHOP   Hey, isn’t that what the investigator joker said too?  Anyway, I   can’t imagine what the hell this "back on track" acually means.  It   always was a bunch of us jackass fishers talking amongst ourselves about   whaterver we please and it always will be.   My observations of these groups (since their conception) is that for   every person who takes them (too) seriously, there are a thousand (and   climbing daily) who don’t.  If anyone wants to get with a group of   folks that are all as serious as they are should get into a   listserv – I’ll be happy to explain via email what this means.   FAQ’s for these groups are a great concept, but a waste of time.   99.44% of the time the only people aware of the FAQ are people who   don’t need it – and FAQ’s certainly don’t squelch the repetitive   discussions. cheers,   -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

Response:

Q:  What’s the difference between Tim Walker’s head and a buttplug? A:  The buttplug comes out once in a while. Sorry, just had to complete the symmetry. I’ll help out on the FAQ, but someone, really anyone, has to set out a real and complete first draft of a Table of Contents.  It won’t be the final one and it won’t be right, but it will give a starting point.  I could suggest a list of 10 or so names for this job, but you guys probably know who you are.  Any volunteers?  We can’t really start without it. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

What is it about flyfishing that creates such unbridled passion ? About this damned newsgroup ?

No offense, and with all due respect, it’s you. Swearing at people who don’t agree with you, calling people names when they don’t agree with you, doing whatever pleases you to someone who doesn’t agree with you is what makes this newsgroup so violent. If you REALLY are trying to turn over a new leaf then I’m willing to let bygones be bygones, but if you think that simply making a FAQ is going to change anything by itself you are far too optimistic. So, Jimbo – Whomever had May 22 on the Skeeter returns pool, gets the warm Molson.

Hey, give credit where credit is due, it was my pool.  :-) Although NOBODY was guessing this soon, you usually wait at least a couple of weeks. The GOAL of this rather longish post is to help to get ROFF back on track and with high hopes of a much better ROFF for all of us in the very near future.

<honest question Maybe you can define what a "better" ROFF looks like. – No political rants? – No ethical rants? – No swearing? – No name-calling? Unless you do some or all of those, what will change? </honest question Clean slate ?    Any AYE’S ?

Sure, I’ll be happy to start over, again it’s mostly up to you though.  Your first swearing rant over someone C&R-ing a fish and we’ll be right back where we started. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – RFD: A NEW FAQ For Rec.Outdoors.Fishing.Fly "FAQ – Rec.Outdoors.Fishing.Fly" What the FAQ ? <g (i.e. Why…? Anecdotal, but real…) Hierarchy Etiquette ?  (Recommend None. <G) Rules governing SPAM Common Questions (Equipment, Setup, Places to go) Endless Threads 1. C&R Basic Position – [Ralph or delegates Can write ?] 2. C&K Basic position – [Jon Cook or ??? can write ?] Frequent Posters Personal BIO’S Moe Skeeter – Pigheaded Buttmunch C&K homebrewer….(We’d write our own) Fishing Links etc. Do you see where this could go ? Do you see how this could be useful and prevent any hard feelings in the future ? How a newbie can get answered immediately ? Links and info and organization..

The general info part of a FAQ is certainly a good idea.  I question the ability of a FAQ to regulate etiquette or to make a difference in the "endless threads".  The problem is that veterans already know the info and those who need the info rarely read FAQs. I would be willing to help with a general info section, but the other sections are basically futile in the chaotic USENet. Tell you what, if you can get an agreement on what a "better" ROFF looks like I’ll reconsider. I think you are underestimating the variety of viewpoints people have here. Good Luck,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Response:

_____ Well Tim, I know nothing about this person Max that is supposed to be a rascal, but your arguments are of a reasonable man.  Of course, personally, I like most of the men in this group.  The only reason why there aren’t more ladies involved here is because . . . and then it ceases to be interesting regarding "attention spans and talking fishing?" Not important issue right now.  But I accept your reasoning. My displeasure regards the pure, foul mouthing being allowed to permeate into this group.  It just isn’t right. I can imagine (bear with me) of your story about the fellow that taught you a lot astream recently Tim.  Let us all try and imagine therefore; the following. There is this sage looking gentleman with a pipe, tying on another fly as this kid watch in great admiration his skill in catching trout with such a long, graceful looking wand.  So the child walks up to the man and from behind him as his back is turned to the bank, he says, "Hey Mr.? Whatcha doing?" The gentleman turns around slowly with raised gray brows and smiles a strange sort of smile and says . . . "Get lost, punk." As the king said to Mozart, "You argue Mozart, but you fail to persuade."  Swearing is a lot like that, whereas, your arguments persuade because your logic and research is based on reason.  When the man turned and said, "Get lost, punk" (a form of swearing that will affect that child for the rest of his life regarding fly fishing, possibly) instead of, "Why hello, young man.  How are you today?  You ever fly fish?" is what the flow of your persona as a gentleman/fly fisherman wins the moment of your thread and all those who swore and cursed and spit foul words before you, today, lost.

Response:

<lot of good stuff snipped – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I hope everyone has a wonderful Memorial day weekend. I have a couple people in mind that I’ll need to remember hard this year…. You get a line…I’ll get a pole…Honey. You get a line…I’ll get a pole….bay-beee… You get a line…I’ll get a pole, We’ll go down to the crawdad hole. Honey, Bay- be mine…. Your pal, — TimW

tim…you ‘da man…. ;^) btw…"SECRET" flies in the mail come tuesday, just finished tying another batch of ‘em. -walt

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tim…you ‘da man…. ;^)

Yeah! — Bill

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ROFF Charter         Purpose of NG         Goals of NG         Rules for posting to NG                 Profanity                 Selling                 Attachments                 When to respond to Writer rather than Group FAQ’s         Equipment                 Rods and Reels                 Float Devices                 Nets                 Vests                 Lines                 Leaders                 Accessories         Clothing                 Rain Gear                 Hats                 Waders/Boots         Guides                 Tipping                 Personal Experience Stories         Tying (see ROFFT) PERSONAL BIOs         Regular Frequent Posters         Known Commercial Posters         Known Frequently Medicated Posters

Response:

Good start!  I’ve added a suggestion or two below.

: ROFF Charter :       Purpose of NG :       Goals of NG :       Rules for posting to NG :               Profanity :               Selling :               Attachments :               When to respond to Writer rather than Group : FAQ’s :       Equipment :               Rods and Reels :               Float Devices :               Nets :               Vests :               Lines :               Leaders :               Accessories :       Clothing :               Rain Gear :               Hats :               Waders/Boots :       Guides :               Tipping :               Personal Experience Stories :       Tying (see ROFFT)         General                Why are they picking on Orvis?                What do they have against Jeep Grand Cherokees?                Who is Brian Keith? : PERSONAL BIOs :       Regular Frequent Posters :       Known Commercial Posters :       Known Frequently Medicated Posters :       — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

I Are you saying that Tim doesn’t swear and curse and spit foul words? What newsgroup have you been reading?  This whole episode started because Tim had to resort to swearing.     – Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Ken, It seems to me that you are deliberately continuing to try and fuel this smoldering fire. Lighten up….. –Walt

Response:

I Are you saying that Tim doesn’t swear and curse and spit foul words? What newsgroup have you been reading?  This whole episode started because Tim had to resort to swearing.     – Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself Ken, It seems to me that you are deliberately continuing to try and fuel this smoldering fire.

No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too much drugs.  :-) Lighten up…..

Nah, I’m always too light, maybe if I called someone an imbecilic dweeb I could get in on the really good fights.  :-) Later,      - Ken P.S.  No hard feelings, I noted the smiley and please note mine in return. — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Response:

No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too much drugs.  :-)

Hi Ken, You’ve got it all wrong! I called Tim a gentleman in another thread, although it was to do with the same subject. I never said he was *the* gentleman in the NG, but *a* gentleman for forgiving Max for what everyone else would have seen him hung drawn and quartered.  Tim has given out a lot of flack and certainly has taken some, not the least from you and J.P. He’s no angel but he is a GENTLEMAN for turning a blind eye to all Max has done.  I’ve no doubt some of Tim’s comments in the future will be succinct, curt, bombastic, witty, even vitriolic, but always well founded on solid principle. Can you match up to such a guy in eloquence and character? Written with no malice aforethought (a novelty for this NG) Regards, — Bill

Response:

I am disturbed by these recent events. Restless.  Sleepless.  Bothered. What is it about flyfishing that creates such unbridled passion ? About this damned newsgroup ? IMHO – Max Whittington is, I am certain (now more than ever) a good man who made an honest mistake.  Lord knows, I have.   Moreover he made a mistake about something he is passionate about.  Lord knows, I have done that too.  Have you ? I have read carefully every post has made here and I see something different than what has been revealed by these events. First off he is helpful to the beginner.  Cordial and a gentleman.  Sincere.  He is also a hell of an investigator <g, this might be useful when the REAL loons come around <g. We can not all get mad and quit when something bad happens and I am not setting any example.  I am very sorry for that.  If we all acted like this…then there were none. —- Like the constant upstream migration of an emerging insect, with all of the odds against it, we *must* press upstream and solve this problem…. —- So, Jimbo – Whomever had May 22 on the Skeeter returns pool, gets the warm Molson. I can not leave the group like this.  It sucks.  It’s mean spirited and hurting.  And it is only Qayaniskatsi – Life out of balance. I do not sense mean hearts among us, anywhere, do you ? —- I have 2 serious issues.  Please bear with me The GOAL of this rather longish post is to help to get ROFF back on track and with high hopes of a much better ROFF for all of us in the very near future. —- First off…everyone…please go to www.dejanews.com and read the stuff Max posts.  He’s a good Joe, IMO (not that MY opinion is worth a ratty waterlogged adams). It is true that I felt violated by the background check and the email to my employer, but he woke my eyes up in a huge way. It may NOT be safe to have an unchecked opinion in cyberspace.  You too might want to consider this.  I am hoping to find out just what in the world is out there easily for people to find and I intend to ask Max to help me. Friends… You take the bad with the good, but you look for the good… …and I see a hell of a lot of it in that man. I challenge you to read *all* of his posts and not agree. I know (feel) that something positive is coming out of this and in the end I predict that not only will Max be a good friend to a lot of us, but that ROFF will be better, stronger and more organized place to deal with the hectic, eclectic and sometimes strange internet demands placed upon it. — Let’s use this as an opportunity to grow.  Individually, collectively… — That was my first serious issue and I am serious. Can we forgive and forget by remembering [who we are]…Royal Order of the Brothers of the Bugchuckers… Number two will just be ‘#2′  <g if we can not. Clean slate ?    Any AYE’S ? Part 2. RFD: A NEW FAQ For Rec.Outdoors.Fishing.Fly Request for Discussion… We need a new FAQ for ROFF.  It is high time.   I believe that none of this would have happened if we had one and will take at some of the heat if for this alone. I’ve been around long enough that it’s at least partly my laziness that we don’t have the damned thing done yet ! John Ferriera, where are you ? Consider this…. The C&R thread has been active for at least 7-8 years ?  It has started/ended/mutated so many times that it’s *amazing*.  This can *only* speak to its relevence of it as a valid subject in our sport, or at least to a buncha people here as it relates to our sport (I am in this group that feels that it needs discussing). That, however, is *not* the point (only an example)…please view it only as such. The point is, is that it is maddening to have to justify its (the threads) existence over and over and over, like some of us have had to.  Why should I feel guilty discussing C&R ad infinitum around here ?  (or cussing or swearing…).  We have been around and around on this and I have a solid proposal. To use Max’s example: Assume that this is a club, only its like no other club in the world.  We have no limitations on membership. No education requirements or dress code.  We have no choice in the matter, really, unless we moderate the group, because this group exists in the Universe of the internet we must treat it as a subset of this Universe.   If the group becomes moderated, well…that’s fine…but then please point me to the unmoderated one. The FAQ *WILL* give credence to and justify these ongoing threads so that they will not be the targets of trivialization or condemnation.  Moreover the FAQ will set the rules of fair play in ROFF that we will all have to agree to, or move on. Certain things will be covered in the FAQ, such as "Opinions on Floatants". Hopefully, this will grow with relevent information and all of the info, such as Albolene, secret formulas and the history of George Gehrke and his product on can get thoroughly and objectively covered there once. Instead of saying "This group sucks…can we change it ?", We could say…"Uh…this part of the FAQ sucks, can we change it …?". Thus I propose a *MEMBER DETERMINED* FAQ having a "table of contents" something like: "FAQ – Rec.Outdoors.Fishing.Fly" What the FAQ ? <g (i.e. Why…? Anecdotal, but real…) Hierarchy Etiquette ?  (Recommend None. <G) Rules governing SPAM Common Questions (Equipment, Setup, Places to go) Endless Threads 1. C&R Basic Position – [Ralph or delegates Can write ?] 2. C&K Basic position – [Jon Cook or ??? can write ?] Frequent Posters Personal BIO’S Moe Skeeter – Pigheaded Buttmunch C&K homebrewer….(We’d write our own) Fishing Links etc. Do you see where this could go ? Do you see how this could be useful and prevent any hard feelings in the future ? How a newbie can get answered immediately ? Links and info and organization.. IOW – Shouldn’t we get our collective shit together a little ? Vroman hates me for a very similar misunderstanding…we simply don’t agree on what ROFF is, but how can either of us be right if NOBODY knows what ROFF is ? By end of summer…let’s say…we all agree on what ROFF is…DEAL ? It’s something to consider…. Max, I hope you’re still with us ? Comments ? Peace. No hard feelings…. I hope everyone has a wonderful Memorial day weekend. I have a couple people in mind that I’ll need to remember hard this year…. You get a line…I’ll get a pole…Honey. You get a line…I’ll get a pole….bay-beee… You get a line…I’ll get a pole, We’ll go down to the crawdad hole. Honey, Bay- be mine…. Your pal, — TimW What is ROFF ?

Response:

Question:

: Most people laugh when they see my "go to" fly, but it : has worked when nothing else has. It’s what I call a : Royal Gnat. It looks like a Griffith’s Gnat, but it Stuff deleted : fly fishing. I have caught 19 brown trout in 2 1/2 hours : with this fly (largest one was 14 in.).                                  ^^^^^^ Boy, that’s one big fly! : Darryl Charley

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Re: Dry flies.
My favorite patterns are similar – elk hair caddis, lt cahill, griffin gnat
renegade, adams.  But, and I am a bit ashamed to admit this — I have caught more trout and larger trout on a #16 royal wulff than any other.  There, I said
it.  This fly has seemed to go out of favor, and I wonder why.  Am I the only
one that ties this on when nothing is working???
–
MGC Top Down Design Support

Most people laugh when they see my "go to" fly, but it has worked when nothing else has. It’s what I call a Royal Gnat. It looks like a Griffith’s Gnat, but it has a floss mid-section just like a Royal Coachman. Red floss works well, but I have caught quite a few on green and yellow also. Sizes from 16 to 20. It’s been my experience that even when the fish aren’t rising, that if you drift one of these through a riffle around a dozen times, (if there are any fish) they start coming to the surface to take a look. I know I’m going to get a lot of disbelief on this, thats why I have hesitated writing, but the last time out with a buddy, I gave him a few and told him how to fish them, and he had the best day he ever had fly fishing. I have caught 19 brown trout in 2 1/2 hours with this fly (largest one was 14 in.). Darryl

Response:

Lets see who has caught lots of fish on what flies and where? My most productive rivertrout fly is the #14 Elk hair Caddis, and the #14 Light Cahill. The biggest fish I have caught on a dry in my one and a half years of fishing is a 16 in Rainbow on HAt creek in CA. How about all of you guys. I want poeple to talk about fishing not yuppies, Thanks.

Response:

Lets see who has caught lots of fish on what flies and where? My most productive rivertrout fly is the #14 Elk hair Caddis, and the #14 Light Cahill. The biggest fish I have caught on a dry in my one and a half years of fishing is a 16 in Rainbow on HAt creek in CA. How about all of you

The most productive pattern over the last two years has been the Micro Worm (a variation on the San Juan worm). Most satisfying experience was last year when we took out a young fellow new to the sport. It was slow fishing but he hooked the first fish of the day, and the last. The last was a twenty five inch Brown. The huge grin that he was sporting is not something that will be soon forgotten. Sort of puts it all back in perspective. Flyfishing is supposed to be fun for all involved. Jim

Response:

A list of favorite patterns would have to include the Tom Thumb, pheasant tail nymph, serendipity(?), comparadun, Werners nymph. I have by best luck on the BlackWater River in B.C. and on the Deschutes in Oregon.

Response:

: Lets see who has caught lots of fish on what flies and where? My most : productive rivertrout fly is the #14 Elk hair Caddis, and the #14 Light : Cahill. The biggest fish I have caught on a dry in my one and a half years : of fishing is a 16 in Rainbow on HAt creek in CA. How about all of you : guys. I want poeple to talk about fishing not yuppies, Thanks. My best luck on dry flies comes with a #22 griffith’s gnat, #20 light cahill (both on the swift river), and #16-18 elk hair or poly wing caddis of the appropriate color (on the deerfield river).  The adams can’t be beat for a standard search pattern or as a reasonable facsimile of most hatches.

Response:

For both here in Upper Michigan and Alaska, I like the Humpy.  Great floatability in the fast waters I fish.  I went through no less than forty of them here in the U.P. last year.  My second favorite is the elk hair caddis.      Steve Kernosky   *         Accept me for what I am, Michigan Tech. Univ.  *         completely unacceptable.

Response:

Lets see who has caught lots of fish on what flies and where? My most productive rivertrout fly is the #14 Elk hair Caddis, and the #14 Light Cahill. The biggest fish I have caught on a dry in my one and a half years of fishing is a 16 in Rainbow on HAt creek in CA. How about all of you guys. I want poeple to talk about fishing not yuppies, Thanks.

My favorite pattern, the one I find myself digging for again and again is a #20-22 blond elk-hair caddis.  Caught the most on these boys. (central and southern Missouri) My biggist fish (20 1/2"  #4 3/4 Brown) was on a #6 McSalmon on the Madison. Kevin Franden                                   Informix Software, Inc.                                                 16011 College Blvd uunet!infmx!kevinf #include <patchlevel.h fprintf(DISCLAIMER,"I said what I said.n");       You only live once but if you do it right, once is enough                               Carpe Diem

Response:

Lets see who has caught lots of fish on what flies and where? My most productive rivertrout fly is the #14 Elk hair Caddis, and the #14 Light Cahill. The biggest fish I have caught on a dry in my one and a half years of fishing is a 16 in Rainbow on HAt creek in CA. How about all of you guys. I want poeple to talk about fishing not yuppies, Thanks.

I carry lots of  flys but give me a Pheasant Tail Nymph, a Prince Nymph, and an assortment of  Elk Hair caddis and Para-duns and  I’ll be happy 90% of  the time. Here are my favorite patterns Nymphs & wet flys: Pheasant Tail Nymph ( Al Troth version)   Prince Nymph Zug Bug           Jay’s Stone ( my own ) March Brown Spider   Mini Leech                 Wooly Bugger               Dry Flys: Elk Hair Caddis Para-Dun Mac Salmon Dave’s Hopper Black Ant Griffiths Gnat Humpy Old Standbys: Adams Black Gnat Light Cahill Royal Wulff Muddler Minnow Ive done most of my fly fishing in Oregon and I have had the best fishing in these streams and some high lakes: Lower Deschutes Crooked River Metolius Wood Williamson Klamath

Response:

My favorite has to be the Humpie. It’s produced many memorable days. Second is the Parachute Adams or  a similiar fly tied in brown. Biggest was a 24"  Rainbow( really) on a floating foam chrionomid. Bead head hairs ears are the favorite nymph- while maybe the Prince should be number one.

Response:

Re: Dry flies. My favorite patterns are similar – elk hair caddis, lt cahill, griffin gnat renegade, adams.  But, and I am a bit ashamed to admit this — I have caught more trout and larger trout on a #16 royal wulff than any other.  There, I said it.  This fly has seemed to go out of favor, and I wonder why.  Am I the only one that ties this on when nothing is working??? — MGC Top Down Design Support

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Re: Dry flies. My favorite patterns are similar – elk hair caddis, lt cahill, griffin gnat renegade, adams.  But, and I am a bit ashamed to admit this — I have caught more trout and larger trout on a #16 royal wulff than any other.  There, I said it.  This fly has seemed to go out of favor, and I wonder why.  Am I the only one that ties this on when nothing is working??? — MGC Top Down Design Support Most people laugh when they see my "go to" fly, but it has worked when nothing else has. It’s what I call a Royal Gnat. It looks like a Griffith’s Gnat, but it has a floss mid-section just like a Royal Coachman. Red floss works well, but I have caught quite a few on green and yellow also. Sizes from 16 to 20.

This sounds a lot like a "Sierra Bright Dot". It has grizzly hackle at the head and butt of the fly and *bright* orange floss in the middle.  I’ve done real well with them on some high country Sierra Nevada lakes. — John Fereira   "Guru of Miscellany" Pleasanton, CA Viacom Cable Division

Response: