Question:

/daytripper (Cripes, I’d have to Google "PHP" just to find out if that’s some kind of pig tranquilizer or software!

Freakin’ chiphead. Got time to check out the Nissitisset Friday AM?  I have to be in Andover at 2ish and was going to try to be on the river from say 7-12 or so…

Response:

/daytripper (Cripes, I’d have to Google "PHP" just to find out if that’s some kind of pig tranquilizer or software! Freakin’ chiphead.

Been called a lot worse Got time to check out the Nissitisset Friday AM?  I have to be in Andover at 2ish and was going to try to be on the river from say 7-12 or so…

Ya know, there’s actually a possibility I could do that, and maybe drag Paul along as well. Stay in touch during the week and we’ll see how things develop. I’ll give Paul a ring and let him know what’s up. Forecast is for overcast and cool 50’s. Sounds good! /daytripper (NH season ends this weekend. Without me. Rats!)

Response:

Daytripper, Thank you. I was able to retrieve a tab delimited text file of a USGS site at:

http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ny/nwis/uv?dd_cd=04&format=rdb&period=1&sit… 427500 However, when I retreive let’s say – one day – of this data – I get the data every fifteen minutes or about 96 records. All I want is the *real time* data of *one*record each and every time a user wants that file without the previous records of the past 23 hours and 45 minutes. Is there any way to filter out all other data except for the last – or better – *current* record of data.

Sounds like a job for PHP dude.  Just loop through the records parsing off the flow and keep the last one you see before hitting EOF. –Stan (always up for brute force solutions)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Daytripper, Thank you. I was able to retrieve a tab delimited text file of a USGS site at: http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ny/nwis/uv?dd_cd=04&format=rdb&period=1&sit… 427500 However, when I retreive let’s say – one day – of this data – I get the data every fifteen minutes or about 96 records. All I want is the *real time* data of *one*record each and every time a user wants that file without the previous records of the past 23 hours and 45 minutes. Is there any way to filter out all other data except for the last – or better – *current* record of data. Please advise and thanks for your time.

Tony, I haven’t seen a way to get just the one record that you request.   However, if your able to parse the data in the format suggested by Daytripper, you should be able to quickly parse all 96 records and find the most recent entry.  I don’t know what PHP has to offer, but you could sort the data based upon the time and read the one entry.  You could also try reading the first record at the end of the file. the info you desire.  They are pretty good guys to work with, or at least they used to be.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Daytripper, Thank you. I was able to retrieve a tab delimited text file of a USGS site at: http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ny/nwis/uv?dd_cd=04&format=rdb&period=1&sit… 427500 However, when I retreive let’s say – one day – of this data – I get the data every fifteen minutes or about 96 records. All I want is the *real time* data of *one*record each and every time a user wants that file without the previous records of the past 23 hours and 45 minutes. Is there any way to filter out all other data except for the last – or better – *current* record of data. Please advise and thanks for your time. Tony, I haven’t seen a way to get just the one record that you request. However, if your able to parse the data in the format suggested by Daytripper, you should be able to quickly parse all 96 records and find the most recent entry.  I don’t know what PHP has to offer, but you could sort the data based upon the time and read the one entry.  You could also try reading the first record at the end of the file. the info you desire.  They are pretty good guys to work with, or at least they used to be.

Goddamnit!  Hey Wayno!  What the hell are these guys doing?  Are they calling us bad names or what?    :( Wolfgang boy……they just better not be!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Daytripper, Thank you. I was able to retrieve a tab delimited text file of a USGS site at: http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ny/nwis/uv?dd_cd=04&format=rdb&period=1&sit… 427500 However, when I retreive let’s say – one day – of this data – I get the data every fifteen minutes or about 96 records. All I want is the *real time* data of *one*record each and every time a user wants that file without the previous records of the past 23 hours and 45 minutes. Is there any way to filter out all other data except for the last – or better – *current* record of data. Please advise and thanks for your time. Tony Ritter

Whew! It’s unnerving to see my handle as the subject. And tagged with an exclamation point, no less! (First reaction: "Oh shit! WTF did I say this time?" You’ll do better to use Stan and "Bouncer" to get you through parsing web data.  I’m a hardware guy with just enough software and networks knowledge to be a pita to sysops everywhere… /daytripper (Cripes, I’d have to Google "PHP" just to find out if that’s some kind of pig tranquilizer or software!

Response:

Daytripper, Thank you. I was able to retrieve a tab delimited text file of a USGS site at: http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ny/nwis/uv?dd_cd=04&format=rdb&period=1&sit… 427500 However, when I retreive let’s say – one day – of this data – I get the data every fifteen minutes or about 96 records. All I want is the *real time* data of *one*record each and every time a user wants that file without the previous records of the past 23 hours and 45 minutes. Is there any way to filter out all other data except for the last – or better – *current* record of data. Please advise and thanks for your time. Tony Ritter

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please include the link that you mentioned in your post below. Couldn’t find it in your original post. I sent another message earlier this morning and an email already!  Here is the link one more time. http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/sw Rock, Thanks for the reply. I went to the URL that you mentioned and I’m still baffled. For example, here is a station I would like: 01427510 If I go the USGS website and query this station, I get the whole page (html – graphics) along with other information which I do not need. All I need is the following data string… 01427510  DELAWARE RIVER AT CALLICOON NY   10/07 17:30  3.14  1,210 1,285  –  17.2 Would I have to use a PHP regexp function to match the pattern I’m looking for in the string to weed out the extraneous information on that page or is there a straight CSV file from the USGS for this station? Please advise. Thank you. Tony Ritter You can get a tab-delimited data file by clicking in the right places, perfect for importing into Excel (for instance). It has a bit of header cruft but there’s enough formatting to be easily filtered to extract the data and ignore the cruft… An abbreviated example, taken from a smallish Maine river that I’m familiar with (the actual file had a month worth of data taken every 15 minutes): # The data you have obtained from this automated # U.S. Geological Survey database have not received # Director’s approval and as such are provisional # and subject to revision.  The data are released # on the condition that neither the USGS nor the # United States Government may be held liable for # any damages resulting from its use. # # Additional information can be obtained from the USGS at #   http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nh/nwis/help/?provisional # # # This file consists of tab-separated columns of data # The columns include the following fields # # column        column definition # agency_cd     Agency collection or maintaining the site # site_no       USGS site identification number # datetime      date and time in ISO format (YYYY-mm-dd HH:MM:SS) # # The remaining fields vary for each site.  The field names # uniquely define sensor (the ‘data descriptor’) and  the # used to collect the data used to collect the data # and the 5 number sequence is the ‘parameter_cd’ # that defines the type of data shown in the column. # # # Data for the following stations is contained in this file #  USGS 01052500 Diamond River near Wentworth Location, NH # # # # # # List of available data for this site.  Lines preceeded by # an asterix ‘*’ are included in the data file. # #  DD parameter – Description # *01   00060   – DISCHARGE, CUBIC FEET PER SECOND #  03   00065   – GAGE HEIGHT, FEET # agency_cd       site_no datetime        01_00060 /daytripper

Response:

RockTrout: Please include the link that you mentioned in your post below. Couldn’t find it in your original post. Thank you. Tony Ritter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 10:59 PM Does anybody know if there is a source where I can get a csv – or comma separated file – from the USGS for particular stations on rivers in New York State. I don’t want to open a js pop up window of that particular USGS station but want to open their URL or FTP and use PHP to parse the data string into an array for output. Use this link and work your way to the appropriate stations.  You can obtain historical data in this fashion.

Response:

Please include the link that you mentioned in your post below. Couldn’t find it in your original post.

I sent another message earlier this morning and an email already!  Here is the link one more time. http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/sw

Response:

Rock, Thanks for the reply. I went to the URL that you mentioned and I’m still baffled. For example, here is a station I would like: 01427510 If I go the USGS website and query this station, I get the whole page (html – graphics) along with other information which I do not need. All I need is the following data string… 01427510  DELAWARE RIVER AT CALLICOON NY   10/07 17:30  3.14  1,210 1,285  –  17.2 Would I have to use a PHP regexp function to match the pattern I’m looking for in the string to weed out the extraneous information on that page or is there a straight CSV file from the USGS for this station? Please advise. Thank you. Tony Ritter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please include the link that you mentioned in your post below. Couldn’t find it in your original post. I sent another message earlier this morning and an email already!  Here is the link one more time. http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/sw

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please include the link that you mentioned in your post below. Couldn’t find it in your original post. I sent another message earlier this morning and an email already!  Here is the link one more time. http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/sw Rock, Thanks for the reply. I went to the URL that you mentioned and I’m still baffled. For example, here is a station I would like: 01427510 If I go the USGS website and query this station, I get the whole page (html – graphics) along with other information which I do not need. All I need is the following data string… 01427510  DELAWARE RIVER AT CALLICOON NY   10/07 17:30  3.14  1,210 1,285  –  17.2 Would I have to use a PHP regexp function to match the pattern I’m looking for in the string to weed out the extraneous information on that page or is there a straight CSV file from the USGS for this station? Please advise. Thank you. Tony Ritter

You can get a tab-delimited data file by clicking in the right places, perfect for importing into Excel (for instance). It has a bit of header cruft but there’s enough formatting to be easily filtered to extract the data and ignore the cruft… An abbreviated example, taken from a smallish Maine river that I’m familiar with (the actual file had a month worth of data taken every 15 minutes): # The data you have obtained from this automated # U.S. Geological Survey database have not received # Director’s approval and as such are provisional # and subject to revision.  The data are released # on the condition that neither the USGS nor the # United States Government may be held liable for # any damages resulting from its use. # # Additional information can be obtained from the USGS at #   http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nh/nwis/help/?provisional # # # This file consists of tab-separated columns of data # The columns include the following fields # # column        column definition # agency_cd     Agency collection or maintaining the site # site_no       USGS site identification number # datetime      date and time in ISO format (YYYY-mm-dd HH:MM:SS) # # The remaining fields vary for each site.  The field names # uniquely define sensor (the ‘data descriptor’) and  the # used to collect the data used to collect the data # and the 5 number sequence is the ‘parameter_cd’ # that defines the type of data shown in the column. # # # Data for the following stations is contained in this file #  USGS 01052500 Diamond River near Wentworth Location, NH # # # # # # List of available data for this site.  Lines preceeded by # an asterix ‘*’ are included in the data file. # #  DD parameter – Description # *01   00060   – DISCHARGE, CUBIC FEET PER SECOND #  03   00065   – GAGE HEIGHT, FEET # agency_cd       site_no datetime        01_00060 /daytripper

Response:

Question:

Dear Sir,  Do you realize they have Lithium and Prozac among many other medications that can help with this problem?  Please walk, err RUN to your closest Dr. of Psychiatry and get some help!  The twitch and voices in my head were removed, I’m sure your voices can be put down as well….:) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We would like anyone in ROFF who does not wish to receive posts to their  private e-mail address to notify us who they may be so we may make a log.   Everyone  is considered operational unless we are notified otherwise in the next ten days.  This is a legal notice.

Response:

Legal notice to George Gehrke: Go fuck yourself for 10 days and get back on your meds. Any emails from you to my address will be considered harassment, and will result in a shitstorm of incredible magnitude raining down upon you. Yours truly, Bob Smith

Response:

Two years ago, many on roff gave us the challenge and after two years, we were able to come up with a fly rod for under the challenged price.

You lying old sack of puss. Two years ago the challenge was to produce a production bamboo fly rod for $300. Not a fly rod KIT, a fly rod, a fishable upon receipt fly rod for $300. You didn’t do it. You failed. So now you think you can change what the challenge was to this new twist of producing a "roll your own" kit rod for $300 or less. You are such a fucking moron George. Do you really thing everybody here who’s had to live with your crap for the last two years will buy this new story from you. God, you are a miserable excuse for a human being. KMA, Bob

Response:

Dear Sir,  Do you realize they have Lithium and Prozac among many other medications that can help with this problem?  Please walk, err RUN to your closest Dr. of Psychiatry and get some help!  The twitch and voices in my head were removed, I’m sure your voices can be put down as well….:)

What, you would deprive Mr. Gehrke of ALL human intercourse?  For shame sir! Wolfgang

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <More lunacy snipped I would seriously advise anybody even considering posting an e-mail to this person, for whatever reason, to be extremely careful.  There is no telling where your address might end up. The person is obviously unbalanced, and in need of treatment. While this is unfortunate, it will not save anybody involved from the possibly unfortunate consequences, and probable misery involved. Yes, exactly.  Why anyone would feel obliged to respond to what is essentially a threat is beyond me.  Best to just let it be.  If you receive spam as a result of your participation on ROFF, simply deal with it as you would any other spam, by contacting the ISP of the offending party. JR

or check the law.  washington state has pretty strict laws on unsolicited e-mail… don’t know the specifics, but if he spammed me via e-mail i might just have to look into it. chris

Response:

You lousy son-of-a-bitch. Unsolicited commercial e-mail of any kind will result in a complaint(s) to your ISP(s). It’s bad enough that I have to wade through your SPAM on ROFF.  It’s illegal and against all of the Usenet rules I’m aware of, both formal and informal. Now you want to start sending me SPAM directly? As the high and mighty judge of all things ethical and moral, you should know better than to try and pull some stunt like this one. How about this: You make a one-time SPAM posting to alert all interested ROFFians (there might even be three or four of them) that if they would like to recieve e-mails from you that they can go to your website and subscribe to your mailing list.  I’m sure that the response would be overwhelming. Legal Notice.  Ha!  What you are contemplating is definitely illegal.  You should fire your attorney, George, and so should your ISP if they truly believe that an illegal post to a public newsgroup constitutes any sort of ‘legal notice’. George, you need help.  Mental help, legal help, and then some.  Perhaps an in-patient program might suit you better than the current out-patient one that continues to allow you to embarrass yourself in front of God and everybody. Here’s my legal notice, Mr. Gehrke, DO NOT EVER SEND ME ANY COMMERCIAL E-MAIL. Tom G constantly amazed

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We would like anyone in ROFF who does not wish to receive posts to their  private e-mail address to notify us who they may be so we may make a log.   Everyone  is considered operational unless we are notified otherwise in the next ten days.  This is a legal notice. Our company and web site is available for any technical questions regarding fly fishing.  Our chat site will become active under a new provider who honors any commercial comments as long as they are posted in chat sites and/or talk groups like Roff.  This new change will prevent problems regarding fly fishing content and values that are posted in the best interests of the industry and individuals world wide who ARE interested in certain commercial aspects regarding FLYFISHING Finally, THIS COMPUTER is a business computer and every man, woman or child in the world may post to this E-Mail Address which may include questions, comments, orders, and requests.  This  open door policy for free speech includes everyone.  Anyone wishing to talk with us over an extended period of time may do so on http://www.gink.com/chat/index.html starting 7 PM evenings. Bad manners, name calling, or bad language will not tolerated at: http://www.gink.com/chat/index.html starting up again after a long absence for operations and plant construction and expansion. Anyone who has any questions should email us.  The new e-mail site is Please make a note of it. Thank you, COMMENTS TO GEORGE AT THIS EMAIL ADDRESS FROM NOW ON.

Response:

We would like anyone in ROFF who does not wish to receive posts to their  private e-mail address to notify us who they may be so we may make a log.   Everyone  is considered operational unless we are notified otherwise in the next ten days.  This is a legal notice.

I can’t f*&%#$% belive this bullshit. You want me to email you to tell you I’m not interested in your new line. I’ve got a better idea I’ll save this tread and send it to your ISP along with a couple of responces to other threads and let them deside. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Our company and web site is available for any technical questions regarding fly fishing.  Our chat site will become active under a new provider who honors any commercial comments as long as they are posted in chat sites and/or talk groups like Roff.  This new change will prevent problems regarding fly fishing content and values that are posted in the best interests of the industry and individuals world wide who ARE interested in certain commercial aspects regarding FLYFISHING Finally, THIS COMPUTER is a business computer and every man, woman or child in the world may post to this E-Mail Address which may include questions, comments, orders, and requests.  This  open door policy for free speech includes everyone.  Anyone wishing to talk with us over an extended period of time may do so on http://www.gink.com/chat/index.html starting 7 PM evenings. Bad manners, name calling, or bad language will not tolerated at: http://www.gink.com/chat/index.html starting up again after a long absence for operations and plant construction and expansion. Anyone who has any questions should email us.  The new e-mail site is Please make a note of it. Thank you, COMMENTS TO GEORGE AT THIS EMAIL ADDRESS FROM NOW ON.

Response:

You lousy son-of-a-bitch. …

Amazing how the Village Idiot manages to self-destruct every so often. Quite convenient really, it’ll be awhile before anyone has to explain to indignant newbies why the old fool is so despised on ROFF. Hey Zimbo, here’s another classic for ginkstinks.org. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Georgie,    Send nothing.  This is official notice.    Send nothing. Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – George,    If I read this right, you’re claiming that you intend to SPAM us all in ten days if we don’t request that you not do that.  I believe that the insertion of "nospam" in my return address is sufficient notice that I don’t want any unsolicited email.  Others who use their address untampered are already accustomed to SPAM and probably want it.   If you do start a SPAM campaign, I’m sure you’ll incur further wrath here, and I suspect some might launch a SPAM campaign of their own.  I wouldn’t participate in that sort of thing. By no means will I be spamming you.  If I write you at your private e-mail address it will never have spam in it Charlie.  For you or anyone.  I don’t do that sort of thing.  I did it once by mistake and boy, never again.  What I’m saying is you’re welcome to always write me as long there is no spam involved either way, okay? No, I am not claiming that in ten days there will be spam from us.  Yet, what some regard as spam is not. Our new Provider says a special report as we posted which others think is spam in a news group, is NOT.  Neither do they consider commercial comments in normal conversation in chat sites spam.  Spam is when (as far as they are concerned) when one takes a mailing list and puts out a commercial message.   That IS spam and I don’t do that. Two years ago, many on roff gave us the challenge and after two years, we were able to come up with a fly rod for under the challenged price.  We have another surprise but I’m not going to post it here.  Roffians will  have to come to our chat site tommorow and ask about it. Anyhow Chuck, to get the kept promise to the thousands of people who have been waiting, our singular web site would not reach them all as once.  Since the problems and the huge sums spent by me are in part the responsibility and doings of ROFFIANS who egged and prodded and helped and who offered their undying support, the best way to communicate that singular report after two years of effort was to post it on ROFF where it belonged.  ROFF owes me at least THAT! So, what I’m asking you now is this.  We may write to each other e-mails but we agree not to spam.  I can handle that just fine.  I don’t spam on e-mails anyhow but then again, we answer a lot of questions regarding fly fishing and products with e-mail but only when requested. Fair enough Charlie? George Gehrke Get your FREE web-based e-mail and newsgroup access at:                http://MailAndNews.com Create a new mailbox, or access your existing IMAP4 or POP3 mailbox from anywhere with just a web browser.

Response:

<SNIP P.S.  Ordinarily, (until I know for sure) I would post this response to you via e-mail Charlie because it doesn’t belong here for public review.  To me, this should be a private conversation between two reasonable men.

No way you are ever going to have such a private conversation then?   What a pity. Perhaps you will be lucky and find a discussion partner as unreasonable as yourself?  A tall order of course, but doubtless you can do it. You can do everything, you said so yourself, so it must be true. ( Awed whispers from off) ( The Mighty and Unholy Gink bows low, seeming unsure of what he knows for sure, apparently hoping against hope that somebody will jump on his shoulders, and then slithers off on his own slime trail for another we). MC

Response:

Gehrke writes: Snipped redundant remarks:

(giant snip) George, you are insane.  You need help. Dave

Response:

Providers, such as the one we just hired, will allow a commercial post in news/talk groups …

Right up until the time they lose their first upstream feed. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

George, in which legal jurisdiction is your rather dubious looking legal notice enforceable? Certainly not mine, that’s for bloody sure.   You do realise this is a world-wide forum don’t you? If I see spam from you in ROFF again, I will (again) complain to your ISP. If I see spam from you in my mail box, I will complain to your ISP. Nice sales pitch from your new provider BTW, either they are a bigger bullshit artist than you are or they are severely deluded. Steve

Response:

<silliness snipped… All work and no play makes George a dull boy. All work and no play makes George a dull boy. All work and no play makes George a dull boy. All work and no play makes George a dull boy. All work and no play makes George a dull boy. All work and no play makes George a dull boy. All work and no play makes George a dull boy. All work and no play makes George a dull boy. All work and no play makes George a dull boy. All work and no play makes George a dull boy. All work and no play makes George a dull boy…

Response:

Our new Provider says a special report as we posted which others think is spam in a news group, is NOT.  Neither do they consider commercial comments in normal conversation in chat sites spam.  Spam is when (as far as they are concerned) when one takes a mailing list and puts out a commercial message.   That IS spam and I don’t do that.

Ask them if they know what a UDP is. — Charlie…

Response:

<nonsense snipped I would never stand on your shoulders, I am quite careful at avoiding crap on my shoes. Providers can not "allow" commercial posts to newsgroups, it does not lie within their power to do so. Try sending a few, and see what happens. Strange as it may seem, and in spite of your congenital idiocy, I assumed that you would have grasped this relatively simple concept by now.  How many providers have thrown you out?   Forgotten? Oh well, ask the next couple what they think, assuming you are a customer long enough of course. The day I need an explanation of Usenet ( or anything else for that matter), from you, I will shoot myself as being no longer a viable proposition for normal existence. I don

Question:

Hi, I’m new to fresh water fishing.  I have a dumb question.  Isn’t a steel head just a rainbow trout that has left the river or stream for a larger body of water?  Isn’t it the same species? Tony

–What area or state are you fishing in?  Are you going to target steelhead?  If so, let me know what type of gear, fly, bait or lures…I’ll give you some tips that may help you. Sharp Hooks, Pat Holdzit Fishing Products Inc. http://www.holdzit.com Before you buy.

Response:

Isn’t a steel head just a rainbow trout that has left the river or stream for a larger body of water?  Isn’t it the same species?

yes – and it returns to the stream it was hatched to spawn just like salmon, I think. Ronnie http://fishing.about.com

Response:

Hi, I’m new to fresh water fishing.  I have a dumb question.  Isn’t a steel head just a rainbow trout that has left the river or stream for a larger body of water?  Isn’t it the same species? Tony

Pretty much. There are different strains though. What makes them different is what water shed they are from. Jay

Response:

I am curious where you came up with the notion that a rainbow is not a trout. A rainbow is a trout is a salmonid.. And a steelhead is a sea run rainbow. Now a brook trout isn’t a trout, but a char. A lake trout is a char….. V.B.

: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii : Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit : Rainbows are not true trout but actually are Salmonids,Oncorhynchus Mykiss. : And yes the Steelhead is the Anadromous-Sea Going-variant of the Rainbow. : This is all old news,do a search of this subject on www.anglingbc.com it’s been : hashed over a number of times.

: Hi, : I’m new to fresh water fishing.  I have a dumb question.  Isn’t a steel : head : just a rainbow trout that has left the river or stream for a larger body of : water?  Isn’t it the same species? : : Tony : : Yes : — : Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii : Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit : <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en" : <html : Rainbows are not true trout but actually are Salmonids,Oncorhynchus Mykiss. : <brAnd yes the Steelhead is the Anadromous-Sea Going-variant of the Rainbow. : <brThis is all old news,do a search of this subject on <a href="rec.outdoors.fishing"www.anglingbc.com</a : it’s been hashed over a number of times.

: <brHi, : <brI’m new to fresh water fishing.&nbsp; I have a dumb question.&nbsp; : Isn’t a steel : <brhead : <brjust a rainbow trout that has left the river or stream for a larger : body of : <brwater?&nbsp; Isn’t it the same species? : <br : <brTony : <pYes : <br– : </html —

Response:

I am curious where you came up with the notion that a rainbow is not a trout. A rainbow is a trout is a salmonid.. And a steelhead is a sea run rainbow. Now a brook trout isn’t a trout, but a char. A lake trout is a char…..

Actually several years ago, they reclassified the rainbow as a member of the pacific salmon family so the genus went from Salmo to Onchorynchus (sp?) Tim

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’m new to fresh water fishing.  I have a dumb question.  Isn’t a steel head just a rainbow trout that has left the river or stream for a larger body of water?  Isn’t it the same species? Tony Yes –they are the most exciting fresh water fish you will ever catch

ive caught them from 6" to 20 lbs

Note: To reply to this sender, remove NOJUNK from the email address. Posted Using FishingLife.com News Service "Life was made for fishing!" http://www.fishinglife.com

Response:

Hi, I’m new to fresh water fishing.  I have a dumb question.  Isn’t a steel head just a rainbow trout that has left the river or stream for a larger body of water?  Isn’t it the same species? Tony

Yes —

Response:

Rainbows are not true trout but actually are Salmonids,Oncorhynchus Mykiss. And yes the Steelhead is the Anadromous-Sea Going-variant of the Rainbow. This is all old news,do a search of this subject on www.anglingbc.com it’s been hashed over a number of times. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’m new to fresh water fishing.  I have a dumb question.  Isn’t a steel head just a rainbow trout that has left the river or stream for a larger body of water?  Isn’t it the same species? Tony Yes —

Response:

Hi, I’m new to fresh water fishing.  I have a dumb question.  Isn’t a steel head just a rainbow trout that has left the river or stream for a larger body of water?  Isn’t it the same species? Tony

Response:

Question:

tripper…yup…it’s the only (and last) fly you’ll ever need to buy…an all purpose southern trout fly for those full days astream, and an apres-fish, around the campfire appetizer for the flyfishing gourmand.

(snipped totally deranged commentary about nucular trout flies – I think) Alright, I think I fell into a trap on this one. But in my defense (such as it is) Sandy Pittendrigh *did* publish a pattern for a Marshmallow Nymph – which is what I thought El Walto was referring to. Little did I realize… /daytripper ("Oh! The humility!")

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – tripper…yup…it’s the only (and last) fly you’ll ever need to buy…an all purpose southern trout fly for those full days astream, and an apres-fish, around the campfire appetizer for the flyfishing gourmand. (snipped totally deranged commentary about nucular trout flies – I think) Alright, I think I fell into a trap on this one. But in my defense (such as it is) Sandy Pittendrigh *did* publish a pattern for a Marshmallow Nymph – which is what I thought El Walto was referring to. Little did I realize… /daytripper ("Oh! The humility!")

On second thought – it wasn’t a seagull shit fly, was it? Peter

Response:

Jeff Miller writes:

(snip for brev) but, oy, the workmanship!

I didn’t know you were Yiddish, my good friend.   (snip for sanity) Would you mind tying (tieing) me a couple of these new miricle flies (flys), Jeffy?  I have the money — will pay you on receipt of the flies. Dave LaCourse

Response:

Would you mind tying (tieing) me a couple of these new miricle flies (flys), Jeffy?  I have the money — will pay you on receipt of the flies.

Wow, I had no idea that Jeff was a Russian monk! — Levi "So long, and thanks for all the fish."

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, lesson time: WTF is a "marshmellow" fly – anyone got a reference site that I can drag that pattern from? /daytripper (Dem suthern fish got strange taste in food, I think…) i have no idea what the hell it was trip. all i know is a big white thing was floating down the river and it was being manipulated by jeffrey. here i was fishing a 16 ehc and he’s catching fish on a marshmellow fly. waldo Jeffie’s fishing pellet flies downstream of the stocking truck again? Peter

ack…the inhumanity of it all!  Mr. Charles, have you no sense of decency?!!  if this is how i’m to be treated on this newsgroup…why…why…, i’ll just have to go some place where i’m appreciated! … um…well…ok, you’re right…there really is no such place, so might as well stay here.  but sir, when we declare war on canada, your truck is the first thing on the list of "must bomb"… jeff

Response:

The last three days have been spent exploring waters with Jeff (&Mark on Sat) solely for the benefit of clavesters. Although I feel we have plenty of waters chosen for all that who attend, it is always good to have a well thought out backup plan. Yesterday afternoon in the rain, Jeff & I brazing the fierce elements, descended into the Watauga gorge to assess the situation. The river was running at about normal, even with the rains. We both tied on boogahs and started some downstream streamer fishing. I caught a couple and then switched to a BHPT just for the sake of variety. I also landed a couple on it. I snipped off the bead head and added a length of 5x and tied on a stimulator. That worked fine also as the fish literally jumped out of the water chasing it as I skittered and danced it across the currents. Being observant, I became aware that Jeff wasn’t anywhere to be seen so I headed upstream. I found him firmly planted in the middle of a double stretch run, gleefully casting to rising fish all around him. I came in at the tail and tossed out the stimulator. They smashed it, but no solid takes. I stepped back and noticed that the trout were rising and sipping gently. I switched to a small Adams parachute and wallah, the hatch was matched, somewhat. Fish after fish took and was brought to hand. I finally observed that they were keying on small bwo’s after I changed to a small yellow comparadun…  no takers on it. Now this may seem a bit too easy for some of you, but it is rare, even in the delayed harvest waters, for the fish to be this active all at once. I attribute the activity to all or most of the conditions being ideal for this. The sky was overcast, heck, it was raining. Bwo’s were hatching all around with an occasional gray stone, sulphur, and hendrickson lifting for variety. The fishermen were in the right place at the right time… no skill or planning… just dumb luck. All in all, a good two hour trip…. I pulled out around six to go home and eat…. Jeff and the band played on…. Walt

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, lesson time: WTF is a "marshmellow" fly – anyone got a reference site that I can drag that pattern from? /daytripper (Dem suthern fish got strange taste in food, I think…) i have no idea what the hell it was trip. all i know is a big white thing was floating down the river and it was being manipulated by jeffrey. here i was fishing a 16 ehc and he’s catching fish on a marshmellow fly. waldo

Jeffie’s fishing pellet flies downstream of the stocking truck again? Peter

Response:

trip… think tan, light bodied ehc…. 14-18. i’ve got some of the yellow doo dads tied fer ya already. Thanks, ol’ pal, for thinking of me. The ehc’s are already tied – wayno sent me a weepie email-o-gram for a bunch ;^) also, size 6 marshmellow. stg, jeffie caught a real nice brown today on one. OK, lesson time: WTF is a "marshmellow" fly – anyone got a reference site that I can drag that pattern from? /daytripper (Dem suthern fish got strange taste in food, I think…)

tripper…yup…it’s the only (and last) fly you’ll ever need to buy…an all purpose southern trout fly for those full days astream, and an apres-fish, around the campfire appetizer for the flyfishing gourmand. waldo’s just jealous cause he can’t get one and doesn’t have the facilities for producing it…only a few are produced in a small Russian village near Chernobyl, hence its name – Chernobyl Caddis Rasputin Adams Parachute (C-CRAP)… think of a mutant cross between a parachute adams, an elk hair caddis, and a wooly bugger with flash, irradiated in a secret process that swells (marshmellows)the material into a buoyant mass, and tied only on moonless nights by Russian monks.   the cost of the fly is a mere $1,500…but, oy, the workmanship!  each fly comes with a lifetime guarantee, handling instructions, and a complimentary pair of lead-coated waders. It’s the only fly in your box that’s sure to last longer than you.   the small neon dropper attachment that flashes "bite me" is a few quid extra, but enhances the night-time presentation. mouse patterns have been rendered obsolete for the die-hard midnight trout stalker…plus, this fly will light the way to your favorite tree species (for those of you seeking the pleasures of the forest). …send me a few thousand bucks and i’ll order you a couple…the exchange rate for kopeks and rubles is quite good now… jeff (a friend to the deprived and depraved)

Response:

Walt enjoyed your fish report, looking forward to seeing your act live.  On my mountain adventure  last week I stopped at South Mountain Park on Thursday P.M and hit the stocked portion above horse camping.  Thought I was in heaven and all my reading was paying off. A 8 to 11 inch stocker on every third cast. In about thirty minutes it stopped, think the fish have developed a feeding schedule  at the hatchery, as I was only able to dig out three in another two hours of beating the water.  My presentation  needs refinement but it wasn"t because of fly choice, I went through the box., need some  casting help also.   But I did work on my sea legs and for the first time out this season  , happy to say I only wene down once.  Friday early I climbed over the falls to be first one through wild trout water { a la Pamlico Jim } but top feeding was slow  so I moved on to Robinsville.  ?Glads to report the 4 lane highway to Toosie’s is still under construction, looks like it extended two blocks in last six months.  Saturday and Sunday fished Snowbird, Santerhilla, and Nangahala  thru cloudy showers and had some fish on drys and nymphs. Have still not caught o streamers or a wooly booger, but will read some more.    Do not recommend that Indians camp alone. I had enough pre mixed manhattens for five nights but used them all up, plus some Jack D. sitting around lonely   camp fire first night.   compssing some interllegical poetry .{ What is doggerel ]     could NOT FIT MY roff FISHING CAP ONTO HEAD NEXT MORNING.          iF YOU HAVE ACCESS TO FOAM BODY YELLOW HUMPISE # 14 please bring me a dozen to clave, they seem to flat higher and longer in fast stream          Indian Joe*

Response:

The last three days have been spent exploring waters with Jeff (&Mark on Sat) solely for the benefit of clavesters.

Many thanks for that supreme sacrifice, Walt. It’s rotten job and we appreciate you doing it ;^) Now, what size flies should we be tying? Stimulators are a PITA to tie so I’d like to concentrate of the *good* sizes. /daytripper

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Walt enjoyed your fish report, looking forward to seeing your act live.  On my mountain adventure  last week I stopped at South Mountain Park on Thursday P.M and hit the stocked portion above horse camping.  Thought I was in heaven and all my reading was paying off. A 8 to 11 inch stocker on every third cast. In about thirty minutes it stopped, think the fish have developed a feeding schedule  at the hatchery, as I was only able to dig out three in another two hours of beating the water.  My presentation  needs refinement but it wasn"t because of fly choice, I went through the box., need some  casting help also.   But I did work on my sea legs and for the first time out this season  , happy to say I only wene down once.  Friday early I climbed over the falls to be first one through wild trout water { a la Pamlico Jim } but top feeding was slow  so I moved on to Robinsville.  ?Glads to report the 4 lane highway to Toosie’s is still under construction, looks like it extended two blocks in last six months.  Saturday and Sunday fished Snowbird, Santerhilla, and Nangahala  thru cloudy showers and had some fish on drys and nymphs. Have still not caught o streamers or a wooly booger, but will read some more.    Do not recommend that Indians camp alone. I had enough pre mixed manhattens for five nights but used them all up, plus some Jack D. sitting around lonely   camp fire first night.   compssing some interllegical poetry .{ What is doggerel ]     could NOT FIT MY roff FISHING CAP ONTO HEAD NEXT MORNING.          iF YOU HAVE ACCESS TO FOAM BODY YELLOW HUMPISE # 14 please bring me a dozen to clave, they seem to flat higher and longer in fast stream          Indian Joe*

i’ll personally tie ya up some joe…. just don’t let me give ya ken’s by mistake waldo — Walter G. Winter Ezflyfish.com:  http://www.ezflyfish.com Blue Ridge Book Gallery: http://www.crosswinds.net/~brbg/books/brbg-2.html

Response:

The last three days have been spent exploring waters with Jeff (&Mark on Sat) solely for the benefit of clavesters. Many thanks for that supreme sacrifice, Walt. It’s rotten job and we appreciate you doing it ;^) Now, what size flies should we be tying? Stimulators are a PITA to tie so I’d like to concentrate of the *good* sizes. /daytripper

trip… think tan, light bodied ehc…. 14-18. i’ve got some of the yellow doo dads tied fer ya already. also, size 6 marshmellow. stg, jeffie caught a real nice brown today on one. waldo — Walter G. Winter Ezflyfish.com:  http://www.ezflyfish.com Blue Ridge Book Gallery: http://www.crosswinds.net/~brbg/books/brbg-2.html

Response:

trip… think tan, light bodied ehc…. 14-18. i’ve got some of the yellow doo dads tied fer ya already.

Thanks, ol’ pal, for thinking of me. The ehc’s are already tied – wayno sent me a weepie email-o-gram for a bunch ;^) also, size 6 marshmellow. stg, jeffie caught a real nice brown today on one.

OK, lesson time: WTF is a "marshmellow" fly – anyone got a reference site that I can drag that pattern from? /daytripper (Dem suthern fish got strange taste in food, I think…)

Response:

I think…) How do you piss off a trout fishermen? Tell him trout will eat anything catfish eat. Big Dale

Response:

OK, lesson time: WTF is a "marshmellow" fly – anyone got a reference site that I can drag that pattern from? /daytripper (Dem suthern fish got strange taste in food, I think…)

i have no idea what the hell it was trip. all i know is a big white thing was floating down the river and it was being manipulated by jeffrey. here i was fishing a 16 ehc and he’s catching fish on a marshmellow fly. waldo

Response:

Now this may seem a bit too easy for some of you, but it is rare, even in the delayed harvest waters, for the fish to be this active all at once. I attribute the activity to all or most of the conditions being ideal for this. The sky was overcast, heck, it was raining. Bwo’s were hatching all around with an occasional gray stone, sulphur, and hendrickson lifting for variety. The fishermen were in the right place at the right time… no skill or planning… just dumb luck. All in all, a good two hour trip…. I pulled out around six to go home and eat…. Jeff and the band played on….

Sounds like a fun trip. In my experience, the frequency that fish become active all at once depends on the fertility of the stream. On very fertile streams this is often a daily experience and during certain times of the year this happen several times a day. These fish are often selective. When they are intent on their feeding, they often lose some of their caution and are less spooky than normal. On relatively infertile waters, hatches dense enough to turn on the fish are pretty rare. The plus part of this for us fishermen is that the fish in these streams are not usually very fussy about what pattern is used. Since they don’t get distracted by the hatches, they tend to be spooky pretty much all the time. Different kinds of fishing, both alot of fun. Willi

Response:

Question:

Chris,    It is difficult to tail a member of the trout family because their tail is not rigid.  Members of the salmon family are easy to tail. Ernie for all my advice, you should have seen me in practice this morning <G.  had a difficult time tailing a fish and when i finally did, it broke me off right there and shot away.  the way things go sometimes.

<snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – chris

Response:

Landing steelhead with a double-handed rod has always troubled me. ..

Just break the rod in half – always works for me! RalphH

Response:

I have found that just a plain pair of wool glove allows you to grip the fish’s tail much easier.  Hope this is of help. Kevin

Response:

Chris,    It is difficult to tail a member of the trout family because their tail is not rigid.  Members of the salmon family are easy to tail. Ernie

well, we’ll have to agree to disagree.  i find steelhead much easier to tail than some of the pacific salmon, although they are in the same family as trout and steelhead, maybe you meant the salmo genus. btw, another way to get a handle on the fish is to first grab the leader… yes, sometimes you get cuts on your fingers from doing it.  of course, with all the benfits of a 2-handed rod, landing fish on them without beaching them is one of the drawbacks. chris

Response:

I wouldn’t worry about tailing steelhead I’ve found that they roll on their side and don’t trash. If you back out of the water and lay your rod down and keep tension on the line you can get a hold of the tail and then get your fly out.It’s much easier to release a steelhead than a small trout I haven’t seen anything used to tail a steelhead.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Landing steelhead with a double-handed rod has always troubled me. I have tried to tail them, but my hand is often too small and/or weak to do so. Besides, it seems to take too much time to sufficiently weaken them before trying to tail them. I don’t want to exaust them. So I tend to force the issue as quickly as possible and try to beach them as soon as possible. Most of the time I have been successful in doing so although I have lost a few feisty ones that seemed to hate to touch the beach. I don’t mind losing some; I let all of them go any way afterwards. However, I wonder if beaching them might hurt them. Does anyone have any factual information regarding beaching and health of relatively large fish? Could anyone give me lessons about how to tail them? As much as I love to hook them, I would like to release them safely. Shinji on the Sky well, i don’t think it’s good for a big fish to flop around on rocks and sand, you really want to keep the fish in the water and not have the rocks and sand remove the fish’s slime layer or scales.  i haven’t seen any studies on it, but i believe all info on releasing fish recommends not bringing the fish out of water. what i do is make sure i have some loose line off the reel so that once i tail the fish i can illeviate the line pressure so i don’t break the rod.  i haven’t found that it takes much more time to tire a steelhead out to tail it than to beach it.  if it’s a problem with your hands, i think there are some tailing devices out there… most seem to be fairly long handled, but i’m sure you could cut back the handle.  i know cabelas sells them.  you could also make sure to fish with someone else, who can tail your fish and vice-versa, but that’ll probably decrease fishing days if you must have a partner.  look into some sort of tailing device if you can’t use your hands, because it is better for the fish you plan on releasing. chris

Response:

for all my advice, you should have seen me in practice this morning <G.  had a difficult time tailing a fish and when i finally did, it broke me off right there and shot away.  the way things go sometimes. i agree that it’s not that big of a deal to lose a fish once you’ve touched the leader or made a grab for the tail… but it truly is nice to get ahold of a steelhead every once in awhile just to get a real good look at one and technically land a steelhead <G. chris

Heartily I agree. That’s why I was trying to beach them. I’d like to thank and say good-bye to them in a proper manner. Shinji on the Sky

Response:

______  I always just slip my free under the fish and lift just a little without taking the fish out of the water and I turn it (being on the edge of the river now) into what current there may be.  Usually, I can slip the hook out very easily.  When I want the fish to simply swim off, I lower its weight back off my hand and they will almost surely swim off casually rather then darting off, which confirms the calming affect lifting a fish just a little has on them while still letting them stay in the water. This works especially well when using barbless hooks because they come out much easier without upsetting a fish as will most barbed hooks will.  Barbed hooks go in easy but come out with more difficulty unless you pay attention to the angle of the little slit one should try to back such hooks out.  Barbed hooks are easier to remove with a large pair of forceps.  A secret I use is to use a pair of dikes.  Powerful cutting and pointed pliers that I can snip the hook in half (large hooks with large barbs) just behind the barb if its all the way through.  The barb comes out instantly and the fish is free. Yes, it cost me a fly but when you’ve caught a 12 pound or large Steelhead, the cost of a fly you’ve tied yourself is a small price to pay for such great entertainment.  It always amazes me when watching television fishing shows the great amounts of effort the ‘Pros’ will go to to save a fly at the greater expense and stress and damage to the fish.   Hope these suggestions are somewhat useful gentlemen. Mr. G. — http://www.gink.com/chat

Response:

Chris,   It is difficult to tail a member of the trout family because their tail is not rigid.  Members of the salmon family are easy to tail.

ARRGH! It’s that Salmonid Taxonomy problem again. Trouts and salmons are all in the family Salmonidae. One of the major genera with in that family is _Salmo_, which includes the Atlantic Salmon and the Brown Trout. Another major family is _Onchorynchus_, which includes the Cutthroat, Rainbow, Golden, Gila, Apache trout and all of the Pacific salmons (pink, king, coho, et cetera). The Lake and Brook Trout are in yet two more genera. (Brookies are technically chars, but I still like them anyway. They’ve got spirit.) At any rate, there is no "trout family" that is distinct from the "salmon family." The criterion that I use is based upon tracing evolutionary relationships. The other criterion may be based upon reproductive migrations or on freshwater vs. saltwater, which leaves us screwed in describing sea-run Cutts or Browns or Steelhead. (Genetically, Steelhead are Rainbows. Bigger and migratory, but rainbows none the less.) Opt out == cop-out. What’s so hard to understand?

Response:

The WDFW gives away a nifty little device at most of the sportsmens shows that is simply a dowel with a plate hook on the end of it. I think they even had directions on how to make them in the regs pamphlet. If you were to make one of these short enough to put in your vest you wouldn’t even have to touch the fish. Simply hook the line with the tool and slide the tool to the fishes mouth. Lift the tool up and the fish unhooks itself. It’s the same principle as the "CatchemRelease" tool you spend $20 on (I have one I use for trout and love it!).  It’s one of the best devices for fishing I have found. It’s simple and better yet it works! Gary

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Landing steelhead with a double-handed rod has always troubled me. I have tried to tail them, but my hand is often too small and/or weak to do so. Besides, it seems to take too much time to sufficiently weaken them before trying to tail them. I don’t want to exaust them. So I tend to force the issue as quickly as possible and try to beach them as soon as possible. Most of the time I have been successful in doing so although I have lost a few feisty ones that seemed to hate to touch the beach. I don’t mind losing some; I let all of them go any way afterwards. However, I wonder if beaching them might hurt them. Does anyone have any factual information regarding beaching and health of relatively large fish? Could anyone give me lessons about how to tail them? As much as I love to hook them, I would like to release them safely. Shinji on the Sky

well, i don’t think it’s good for a big fish to flop around on rocks and sand, you really want to keep the fish in the water and not have the rocks and sand remove the fish’s slime layer or scales.  i haven’t seen any studies on it, but i believe all info on releasing fish recommends not bringing the fish out of water. what i do is make sure i have some loose line off the reel so that once i tail the fish i can illeviate the line pressure so i don’t break the rod.  i haven’t found that it takes much more time to tire a steelhead out to tail it than to beach it.  if it’s a problem with your hands, i think there are some tailing devices out there… most seem to be fairly long handled, but i’m sure you could cut back the handle.  i know cabelas sells them.  you could also make sure to fish with someone else, who can tail your fish and vice-versa, but that’ll probably decrease fishing days if you must have a partner.  look into some sort of tailing device if you can’t use your hands, because it is better for the fish you plan on releasing. chris

Response:

Landing steelhead with a double-handed rod has always troubled me. I have tried to tail them, but my hand is often too small and/or weak to do so. Besides, it seems to take too much time to sufficiently weaken them before trying to tail them. I don’t want to exaust them. So I tend to force the issue as quickly as possible and try to beach them as soon as possible. Most of the time I have been successful in doing so although I have lost a few feisty ones that seemed to hate to touch the beach. I don’t mind losing some; I let all of them go any way afterwards. However, I wonder if beaching them might hurt them. Does anyone have any factual information regarding beaching and health of relatively large fish? Could anyone give me lessons about how to tail them? As much as I love to hook them, I would like to release them safely. Shinji on the Sky

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – well, i don’t think it’s good for a big fish to flop around on rocks and sand, you really want to keep the fish in the water and not have the rocks and sand remove the fish’s slime layer or scales.  i haven’t seen any studies on it, but i believe all info on releasing fish recommends not bringing the fish out of water. what i do is make sure i have some loose line off the reel so that once i tail the fish i can illeviate the line pressure so i don’t break the rod.  i haven’t found that it takes much more time to tire a steelhead out to tail it than to beach it.  if it’s a problem with your hands, i think there are some tailing devices out there… most seem to be fairly long handled, but i’m sure you could cut back the handle.  i know cabelas sells them.  you could also make sure to fish with someone else, who can tail your fish and vice-versa, but that’ll probably decrease fishing days if you must have a partner.  look into some sort of tailing device if you can’t use your hands, because it is better for the fish you plan on releasing. chris

Thanks. Reading your posting, I realize what a fool I was. Why do I have to worry about losing fish while trying to tail them? After all, I am tailing them in order to release them! Shinji on the Sky

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – well, i don’t think it’s good for a big fish to flop around on rocks and sand, you really want to keep the fish in the water and not have the rocks and sand remove the fish’s slime layer or scales.  i haven’t seen any studies on it, but i believe all info on releasing fish recommends not bringing the fish out of water. what i do is make sure i have some loose line off the reel so that once i tail the fish i can illeviate the line pressure so i don’t break the rod.  i haven’t found that it takes much more time to tire a steelhead out to tail it than to beach it.  if it’s a problem with your hands, i think there are some tailing devices out there… most seem to be fairly long handled, but i’m sure you could cut back the handle.  i know cabelas sells them.  you could also make sure to fish with someone else, who can tail your fish and vice-versa, but that’ll probably decrease fishing days if you must have a partner.  look into some sort of tailing device if you can’t use your hands, because it is better for the fish you plan on releasing. chris Thanks. Reading your posting, I realize what a fool I was. Why do I have to worry about losing fish while trying to tail them? After all, I am tailing them in order to release them! Shinji on the Sky

for all my advice, you should have seen me in practice this morning <G.  had a difficult time tailing a fish and when i finally did, it broke me off right there and shot away.  the way things go sometimes. i agree that it’s not that big of a deal to lose a fish once you’ve touched the leader or made a grab for the tail… but it truly is nice to get ahold of a steelhead every once in awhile just to get a real good look at one and technically land a steelhead <G. chris

Response:

Question:

I have been fishing the Red River below Denison Dam for some years now and can be quite sucessful when the generators are not "on" – discharging water. An average spring morning from 6am to 8am will produce 10 to 20 small stripers averaging 12" to18". Great on a 5 to 8wt. However during the spring, the water is normally being discharged due to spring rains and this is my problem. I have never been able to consistantly catch fish with the water flowing. Under these conditions I use a 10wt sinking tip line and all the normal flies that work with the the "water off". Bait fishing with live shad or minnows is normally great during this water flow so I would expect flyrodding to be the same,-but not for me. I have a boat designed especially for flyfishing the river which is quite safe and effective.

Response:

I have been fishing the Red River below Denison Dam for some years now and can be quite successful when the generators are "off" – not discharging water. An average spring morning from 6am to 8am will produce 10 to 20 small stripers averaging 12" to 18". Great on a 5 to 8wt. However during the spring, the water is normally being discharged due to spring rains and this is my problem. I have never been able to consistantly catch fish with the water flowing. Under these conditions I use a 10wt. with fast sinking tip line and all the flies that work with the water "off". Bait fishing with live shad or minnows is normally great during this type of water flow so I would expect flyrodding to be the same,-but not for me. I have a boat designed especially for flyfishing this river which is quite safe and effective. For a picture of the boat and my son see www.2ducks.com/boats.html Would be happy to take out some experienced flyrodders that can teach me the tricks of this particular aspect of flyfishing. ANY SUGGESTIONS would be appreciated. If you think it may be my fly selection, please let me know. I commonly use clousers of all colors, all sizes, some top water poppers. I have not been able to tie the large 8" flies, but the average striper caught is <20" so I would not think this is the problem. I am not a guide, just an avid sportsman living 5 miles from the dam. Can fish 2 – 3 flyrods out of the boat at a time so bring an experianced friend if you would like. I normally can fish from 5pm to sunset weekdays, Fridays 1pm to sunset, and all day on the weekends. If we don’t catch any fish you can buy my lunch at Burger King. Water temperature is 48 and rising and the floodgates are now open. Have private access to the river.

Response:

Question:

Big river, or small creek, with just enough fish to be challenging and *no* other people around is quality.  The rest is fluff.

Interesting concept.  I would partially agree with you in that the number of fish doesnt’ control the quality of the experience.  Where I would disagree with you is when you use a small number of fish present as a positive measure of quality.  You want to be challenged, avoid the easy pocket water where you know you can pick up twenty a day.  Control your behavior (no not you personaly, you as in all of us), protect the environment (insert your definition here), and the rest will take care of itself. phil

Response:

snip

 If we hook and play a number that causes the memory to blur, the appreciation to faden then WE HAVE EXCEEDED THE ETHICAL LIMIT. My opinion" snip

I agree with the premiss that the excitement of fishing is the reuslt of not knowing whether you will catch fish on a given stretch of river on a given day.  It is those days when I struggle to catch fish that make my succesful days exciting and rewarding.  Those struggling days provide a definition of successful ones.  A good example of this was last spring when I was still working very hard to catch any fish on a dry fly.  I would fish all day and catch one or two small trout.  One day I hit a Hendrickson hatch that was unbelievable.  I stood in the rain on six foot wide stream throwing without a fisherman in sight and caught more 13-15" trout (that is a nice fish here in Minnesota) than I could count.  I know because at first I was counting.  I rememeber getting to 25.  At some point after twenty five I just stopped fishing.  It wasn’t dark yet and the fish were still biting but I stopped.  I was bored.  It was too easy. I fished that stream around 50 times last year.  I never had another day like that.  Still, the memory of that day and a possible repeat is what got me out of bed at 3:00am to drive 80 miles to that same stream.  I don’t think I would fish that stream if I caught fish like that every time.  I also don’t think I would fish that stream if it were packed with fishermen (I saw a total of two fishermen all year).  I think I would go somewhere more challenging and rationalize it by saying it had bigger fish or more exciting fish to fight or less people. Mike H

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How much is enough? What is reasonable gratification? I feel strongly that each of these splendid wild creatures deserves to be individually remembered and appreciated. If we hook and play a number that causes the memory to blur, the                                                     ^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^^ appreciation to fade then WE HAVE EXCEEDED THE ETHICAL LIMIT. My opinion" I concur in this!  As I have said before, this is how I make my decision to stop fishing. -Burton — L. Burton Hawley 2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, ORSorry boys, BUT I WANT TO CATCH SO MANY FISH THAT I CAN’T REMEMBER ANY

OF THE "NORMAL" FISH, JUST ALL OF THE GIANTS. (I release most anyway!)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I believe there is one thing Tim and Myself may be able to agree on and I hope so can most other readers of this group. Quality; angling should be about quality. I came across this in "Wild Steelhead and Salmon" V3 No 2 Winter 1997 from Bob linsenman’s 10 ways to Seduce Michigan Steelhead "Under the right conditions it is more than possible , it is probable, that a reasonably skilled fly angler will hook up in excess of 10 times over the course of a day. And that same skilled angler will bring to hand a high percentage of hooked fish. How much is enough? What is reasonable gratification? I feel strongly that each of these splendid wild creatures deserve s to be individually remembered and appreciated. If we hook and play a number that causes the memory to blur, the appreciation to faden then WE HAVE EXCEEDED THE ETHICAL LIMIT. My opinion" All emphasis is mine

You’re going to get mad at me…in advance 8^)… My serious contention with C&R is just that.  It reduces the quality of the experience 10 fold.  What happiness is there in catching a fish in an area with a fish behind every stick ? or an angler around every bend ?   Big river, or small creek, with just enough fish to be challenging and *no* other people around is quality.  The rest is fluff. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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How much is enough? What is reasonable gratification? I feel strongly that each of these splendid wild creatures deserve s to be individually remembered and appreciated. If we hook and play a number that causes the memory to blur, the appreciation to faden then WE HAVE EXCEEDED THE ETHICAL LIMIT. My opinion" All emphasis is mine Ralph H

I agree. One steelhead is a great day.  Ten or twenty days of fishing between hookups makes that one fish even more rewarding. Even trout get boring if you don’t have the occasional day where nothing works, to help bring some mystery and questioning back to it. Mark Vinsel — http://www.lanminds.com/local/vinnie/gallery.html

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How much is enough? What is reasonable gratification? I feel strongly that each of these splendid wild creatures deserves to be individually remembered and appreciated. If we hook and play a number that causes the memory to blur, the                                                          ^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^^ appreciation to fade then WE HAVE EXCEEDED THE ETHICAL LIMIT. My opinion"

I concur in this!  As I have said before, this is how I make my decision to stop fishing. -Burton — L. Burton Hawley       2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, OR

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   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    Organization: Internet Direct SNIP    I came across this in "Wild Steelhead and Salmon" V3 No 2 Winter 1997    from Bob linsenman’s 10 ways to Seduce Michigan Steelhead    "Under the right conditions it is more than possible , it is     probable, that a d reasonably skilled fly angler will hook up in     excess of 10 times over the course of a day. And that same skilled     angler will bring to hand a high percentage of hooked fish.    How much is enough? What is reasonable gratification? I feel    strongly that each of these splendid wild creatures deserve s to be    individually remembered and appreciated. SNIP    Ralph H Not to disagree with you in any way (I too worship steelhead), but it struck me as odd to see an article about Michigan Steelhead in a magazine called "Wild Steelhead and Atlantic Salmon".  They should start a magazine called "Introduced and Hatchery Steelhead and Atlantic Salmon" for this topic.  Though, I should say that I’ve never really understood the scope of this magazine anyway. cheers,         -tgades

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I believe there is one thing Tim and Myself may be able to agree on and I hope so can most other readers of this group. Quality; angling should be about quality. I came across this in "Wild Steelhead and Salmon" V3 No 2 Winter 1997 from Bob linsenman’s 10 ways to Seduce Michigan Steelhead "Under the right conditions it is more than possible , it is probable, that a reasonably skilled fly angler will hook up in excess of 10 times over the course of a day. And that same skilled angler will bring to hand a high percentage of hooked fish. How much is enough? What is reasonable gratification? I feel strongly that each of these splendid wild creatures deserve s to be individually remembered and appreciated. If we hook and play a number that causes the memory to blur, the appreciation to faden then WE HAVE EXCEEDED THE ETHICAL LIMIT. My opinion" All emphasis is mine Ralph H

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Question:

 going to the hiawasse Nov 1 for the weekend and would like some info on what to tie up and how the fishing is this time of year? please e mail me thank you, Kent K. Anderson

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 going to the hiawasse

Are you asking about the Hiwassee in southeastern Tennessee? If so, maybe I can give you some info. Dave — Visit Dave Teffeteller’s Fly Fishing Guides page http://www.olfart.com

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 going to the hiawasse Nov 1 for the weekend and would like some info on what to tie up and how the fishing is this time of year? please e mail me thank you, Kent K. Anderson

Kent: You might find something on LJ Decuir’s page: http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ldecuir/default.html —Rich

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Question:

     I’ll be in the Old Forge, NY area during the last week in July. Does anyone know if it’s worth bringing my flyrod?

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Yes it is if you have an opportunity to fish Nicks Lake. You will need a canoe (which can be rented from Tickners in Old Forge), since motors are not allowed on Nicks. Heavily stocked with brown and brook trout. Throw on a size #18 adams and have fun.

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Definately check out the West Canada Creek when you’re in Old Forge.  Late July, most of August you’ll likely find prolific hatches of what are locally called "whiteflies".  Size 12-14-16 light cahills work fine.  Good luck!

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Question:

I am new to fly fishing and need advice on what type and brand of rod is best to buy. I will probably be doing most of my fishing on the rivers and streams of New Zealand,

Why don’t you try an E-mail to Simon Lusk who maintains the New Zealand flyfishing web page.  I don’t have his email address right now but I’m sure you can get it on the Web. Mike Ray Atlanta, GA Cashiers, NC

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(John Birnbaum) writes: I am new to fly fishing and need advice on what type and brand of rod is best to buy. I will probably be doing most of my fishing on the rivers and streams of New Zealand, I don’t know whether this has any affect on the rod I buy.

Personally I fish with the Orvis PM-10 865-4 ($485) which is an 8 1/2 ft 5wt. 4 piece rod.  There is now a 9 foot version of this rod available which will give you a little better mending, but I like the one I have. This is a great fast action rod with a delicate tip for the South Island and many of the streams & rivers of the north.  If you’re going to be fishing the rainbow runs up the feeder streams from the big lakes in the North Island, you might want a 9′ 7wt for some of the big streamers used there.  The gentleman I teach our schools with, Dean Schubert, has spent 12 months out of the last 5 years fishing the South Island of New Zealand and he prefers the PM-10 906-4 (9′ 6wt.4 piece $485).  A 4 piece rod in  8 1/2  to 9 ft. length is a good choice especially if you’re trekking though the country.  I wouldn’t suggest a rod lighter than a 5 due to the size of the trout and the need to be able to pressure the fish authoritatively at times (tough to do with a 2, 3, or 4 wt.).  Another rod that works well and is a medium fast action is the Orvis HLS RM "Spring Creek Traveler ($300 – 9ft. 5wt. that really casts a 6 wt. line).The 25 yr. "any way you can break it" guarantee doesn’t hurt either. As always you should try to cast the rods before you buy if at all possible.                 Good Luck, and I’ll try not to be too jealous of your fishing opportunities,                                                                Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Schools Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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I am new to fly fishing and need advice on what type and brand of rod is best to buy. I will probably be doing most of my fishing on the rivers and streams of New Zealand, I don’t know whether this has any affect on the rod I buy. Thanks, Dylan. I would think about Orvis fly rods. I know they are a bit uppyish but the product is very good. You can’t beat the 25 year return policy. I own an Orvis Henry’s Fork with a Battenkill 5/6 reel it’s great.

I would think about a SAGE 389-3LL (lifetime warranty!), 3piece for better transport which might be great for longer hikes or helico= pter transports in NZ. The 3 wt line is delicate enough not to spook the fish but is heavy enough to carry a trout fly well (except = very heavy streamers). The 8ft9inch length is great for roll-casting. It has a medium fast action with lots of power and delivers fl= ies on long leaders with ease and will protect your tippet if you get the real big ones which are native to NZ. You can feel the loa= ding of the rod very nicely, which does not mean that the rod is whippy or slow. I fish it with a 3wtDT/F line (Cortland, of course)=

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I am new to fly fishing and need advice on what type and brand of rod is best to buy. I will probably be doing most of my fishing on the rivers and streams of New Zealand, I don’t know whether this has any affect on the rod I buy. Thanks, Dylan.

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I am new to fly fishing and need advice on what type and brand of rod is best to buy. I will probably be doing most of my fishing on the rivers and streams of New Zealand, I don’t know whether this has any affect on the rod I buy. Thanks, Dylan.

I would think about Orvis fly rods. I know they are a bit uppyish but the product is very good. You can’t beat the 25 year return policy. I own an Orvis Henry’s Fork with a Battenkill 5/6 reel it’s great.

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Dylan,     I have never fished NZ before but I would say that your best bet for the trout that I have read about is a 3 – 7 wt rod ( ah heck, get one of each ). Use the lighter rods on the spring creeks and the heavier rods for big water and windy conditions. I’d say either a 3, 6 or a 4, 7 combo would be nice and I would lean to the 3, 6 end. If you could only have one rod I would choose a 5 wt with 8-9 ft length.   As far as brands go, I would look to the British Commonwealth if NZ is a member because a rod imported from the US is going to be very expensive. Hardy and Partridge make bamboo and graphite fly rods and of course Hardy makes wonerful reels that are advertised as lifetime guaranteed. Partridge also makes great hooks. They are expensive here in the US but I pay for them because I like them.   From the US Orvis, Sage, Thomas and Thomas, Loomis, Scott et al all make great products. I personally use Orvis and Sage products. Good Luck Chuck Abbott

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