Question:

Skittering is a fantastic technique for catching trout, especially when the caddis are active but it is still deadly during mayfly activity. I learned about it in an old book that had a chapter on the 1920’s Bryson City (Hazel Creek) fishing legend, Mark Cathey. He could subtly vibrate his hand and the energy would transfer to rod/line/fly. The end result being the fly "dancing" on the water. I believe it is so effective because the fly becomes alive, it’s not just another piece of inanimate detritus floating by. It is also very effective with a pupae dropper…. because it also becomes alive. If truth be told, I’ve caught way more trout "skitterin" than dead drifting.

One of the hardest situations, for me, is when the fish want just a bit of vibration or a twitch. It is easy to give a fly significant movement but I find it hard to give just that little shift in position that can indicate life to the fish and bring them to the fly. There are many situations, I feel, where this tiniest amount of movement will trigger a strike, while significant movement or drag will put down the fish. The movement, on slow water, is merely a twitch that makes the fly quiver. This quiver is tough to do but it is one of things I try on tough fish. If you get it right, you frequently get the fish.  Do it wrong and the fish is down. Willi

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The very first trout that I caught, was taken on a dragging elk hair caddis…. I’ve mentioned this before, but it’s a good time to repeat.  I have often fished with a partner.  We move up the stream together, taking turns fishing.  It’s a good method for critiquing one anther’s technique, in addition to providing company astream.  Very often, while my partner was fishing, I would simply let my fly hang in the current downstream.  This has, over the years, resulted in hundreds of hookups in what would otherwise have been dead time.  This method worked particularly well with elk hair caddis and pass lakes, but many other patterns have also been successful.  Streamers and wet flies, of course, are obvious choices.

If you analyze this and do it in a more purposeful manner, you’d hook even more. Willi

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The technique is a very active one that thoroughly covers alot of area in a short time. I generally hit each spot with a series of short, dead drift casts. As each cast begins to swing, I raise my rod tip and swing the flies through all likely lies below me with the dry skittering along the top and the wet dragging just under or at the surface. My next coverage will be a cast directly across stream. I immediately raise my rod tip and drag the flies back across the current. My last coverage of an area is a series a upstream casts where I drag the flies back toward me moving downstream at a pretty rapid rate. If no fish were stirred, I move up stream and cover the next section of the stream. Could you clarify this, Willi? Do you first fish the spot thoroughly with dead drifts, and only then try the skittering and dragging?

That’s interesting as there’s a section of the West Branch of the upper Credit that is composed of cascades and pocket water that has never produced much for me on wets.  I’ve never fished it in the manner you described as I’ve always attempted to dead drift all my presentations, dry or wet.  Most of the time, I’ve use heavily dressed dries such as Henryville Specials and only broke out the wets when I’m on the verge of a skunking.  I’ll have to try your more aggressive approach this coming season. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Could you clarify this, Willi? Do you first fish the spot thoroughly with dead drifts, and only then try the skittering and dragging?

I usually start out that way because dead drifting has been so ingrained for me. However, once I bring up a fish using a skittering fly, I tend to use the dead drift only for those fish that rose and didn’t take or missed the fly that was given action. I came across this technique through a fortunate accident. Some years ago, I was fishing some pocket water and wasn’t have much luck. As I remember, I was fishing a sizable nymph and decided to change flies. As I began dragging in the fly, it skimmed along the surface and was taken by a nice fish. I figured the fish wanted a dry and fished one in a traditional no drag manner with no results. Then it dawned on me to add some action. Although I’ll frequently twitch caddis dries, the action I give the flies when fishing this technique is much greater. On many of the casts, there is no drag free part of the drift. The fly is dragged across the current and skipped through small pockets and hopped upstream. Not all insects float in a sedate manner like a Mayfly. Many Caddis hop across the surface laying eggs. Stoneflies will "swim" across the surface leaving a wake. Craneflies are very active on the surface. I sometimes try to imitate these but mainly I try to give the fish a vision of something alive and eatable. I have a sense of when this technique will be effective but I’m not aware of all the variables. It is a very aggressive technique that works in summer on hot sunny days. I believe that the pocket water and rapids where I use this technique, although they are often excellent feeding areas for trout, become even more desirable when water temps start rising. The heavily aerated water makes the fish comfortable enough to feed even during the heat of the day. Good fish will move into these shallow aerated areas at these times. I use it most during the hottest part of the summer and usually in the middle of the day but will use it at other times. I use it when I have a sense that the fish are "sulking" or resting, or reluctant to feed. Willi

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter,    Would you please describe in more detail the rods you use for this type of fishing? Best regards, Reed http://www.overmywaders.com/ Reed Virtually any trout rod can be used to swing wets but the best rods are slow action ones that are 9′ or greater in length.  The slow action and the length provide greater line control and better roll casting.  With wet fly fishing, you try to avoid false casting and throwing fast, tight loops as you do not want to dry out the fly. Long, slow rods tend to cast gently with big, open loops.  They’ll also usually spey cast well.  Late last season, I bought a 10′ 6" East Branch 4 wt. for swing wets and the line control it afforded me was excellent.  BTW, it’s also best to use a double taper line for the same line control reasons.  I also use an old, very slow 10′ 6" Lamiglass 8/9 wt. for swinging wets to salmon and steelhead. HTH

Peter, If at all possible, can you bring a two-handed or spey rod to the PA clave with you? Yesterday, I was involved in a situation where I couldn’t get my line across the river to a mighty large fish stationed against a cliff wall. I finally realized that short of a boat, the only way I could present a fly due to the trees behind me was with a big ole roll cast of some type. Unfortunately, I can’t roll cast a 4wt 70-80 feet. Than it dawned on me that a spey might be the answer. Anyway, I’ll trade ya some devlish bow&arrow techniques for a basic spey/2-hand lesson at the PA clave<g Yesterday, I enjoyed swingin wets to some cooperative ‘bows. Jeff and I probably caught about 20-30 each…. finally, a day astream in the frozen mountains. We’re headed back out this am once he shows up… Walt

Response:

The very first trout that I caught, was taken on a dragging elk hair caddis….

I’ve mentioned this before, but it’s a good time to repeat.  I have often fished with a partner.  We move up the stream together, taking turns fishing.  It’s a good method for critiquing one anther’s technique, in addition to providing company astream.  Very often, while my partner was fishing, I would simply let my fly hang in the current downstream.  This has, over the years, resulted in hundreds of hookups in what would otherwise have been dead time.  This method worked particularly well with elk hair caddis and pass lakes, but many other patterns have also been successful.  Streamers and wet flies, of course, are obvious choices. Wolfgang

Response:

I’ve mentioned this before, but it’s a good time to repeat.  …… Very often, while my partner was fishing, I would simply let my fly hang in the current downstream.  This has, over the years, resulted in hundreds of hookups in what would otherwise have been dead time.  This method worked particularly well with elk hair caddis and pass lakes, but many other patterns have also been successful.  Streamers and wet flies, of course, are obvious

choices. I’ve mentioned this before as well, but I caught a decent little brown trailing a royal wulff downstream while untangling my line at the reel. Felt lucky, but didn’t feel smart. Joe F.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Skittering is a fantastic technique for catching trout, especially when the caddis are active but it is still deadly during mayfly activity. I learned about it in an old book that had a chapter on the 1920’s Bryson City (Hazel Creek) fishing legend, Mark Cathey. He could subtly vibrate his hand and the energy would transfer to rod/line/fly. The end result being the fly "dancing" on the water. I believe it is so effective because the fly becomes alive, it’s not just another piece of inanimate detritus floating by. It is also very effective with a pupae dropper…. because it also becomes alive. If truth be told, I’ve caught way more trout "skitterin" than dead drifting. and Steve… that was a fine trout you caught on boone’s that monday afternoon… a nice wild brown. Steve Z., now known as USCG "icebreaker" Zimmerman, caught some fish nymphing today on the Watauga. I caught a bunch of ice and one trout using a yella wooly buggah. –Walt

The very first trout that I caught, was taken on a dragging elk hair caddis.  If there’s a good breeze blowing downstream, I’ll let a mayfly pattern blow in the breeze above a rising fish. Drives ‘em nuts and I’ve had small bows leap out to take it. About the USCG Zimmerman.  Can he be loaned out for some northern ice breaking? Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could you clarify this, Willi? Do you first fish the spot thoroughly with dead drifts, and only then try the skittering and dragging? I usually start out that way because dead drifting has been so ingrained for me. However, once I bring up a fish using a skittering fly, I tend to use the dead drift only for those fish that rose and didn’t take or missed the fly that was given action. I’m gonna have to try this more often. Skittering a dry fly worked pretty well in North Carolina last spring, and was recommended to me by Walt Winter. It makes me think of all those time I’ve picked up my dry fly for a cast and pulled it away from a fish. —

Skittering is a fantastic technique for catching trout, especially when the caddis are active but it is still deadly during mayfly activity. I learned about it in an old book that had a chapter on the 1920’s Bryson City (Hazel Creek) fishing legend, Mark Cathey. He could subtly vibrate his hand and the energy would transfer to rod/line/fly. The end result being the fly "dancing" on the water. I believe it is so effective because the fly becomes alive, it’s not just another piece of inanimate detritus floating by. It is also very effective with a pupae dropper…. because it also becomes alive. If truth be told, I’ve caught way more trout "skitterin" than dead drifting. and Steve… that was a fine trout you caught on boone’s that monday afternoon… a nice wild brown. Steve Z., now known as USCG "icebreaker" Zimmerman, caught some fish nymphing today on the Watauga. I caught a bunch of ice and one trout using a yella wooly buggah. –Walt

Response:

If at all possible, can you bring a two-handed or spey rod to the PA clave with you? Yesterday, I was involved in a situation where I couldn’t get my line across the river to a mighty large fish stationed against a cliff wall. I finally realized that short of a boat, the only way I could present a fly due to the trees behind me was with a big ole roll cast of some type. Unfortunately, I can’t roll cast a 4wt 70-80 feet. Than it dawned on me that a spey might be the answer. Anyway, I’ll trade ya some devlish bow&arrow techniques for a basic spey/2-hand lesson at the PA clave<g Yesterday, I enjoyed swingin wets to some cooperative ‘bows. Jeff and I probably caught about 20-30 each…. finally, a day astream in the frozen mountains. We’re headed back out this am once he shows up… Walt

Sounds like you had an awesome day – that many fish during the winter takes some doing.  Magic fly" Sure, I can bring my 8/9 Lamiglass with me.  Though only a 10′ 6" rod, it has a classic spey action and will spey cast the distance you need. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Peter,     Thank you. That agrees with my experience. I use a 10′  Chubb 6wt. for much of my wetfly fishing, for all the reasons that you describe. Best regards, Reed http://www.overmywaders.com/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Virtually any trout rod can be used to swing wets but the best rods are slow action ones that are 9′ or greater in length.  The slow action and the length provide greater line control and better roll casting.  With wet fly fishing, you try to avoid false casting and throwing fast, tight loops as you do not want to dry out the fly. Long, slow rods tend to cast gently with big, open loops.  They’ll also usually spey cast well.  Late last season, I bought a 10′ 6" East Branch 4 wt. for swing wets and the line control it afforded me was excellent.  BTW, it’s also best to use a double taper line for the same line control reasons.  I also use an old, very slow 10′ 6" Lamiglass 8/9 wt. for swinging wets to salmon and steelhead. HTH Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Response:

Could you clarify this, Willi? Do you first fish the spot thoroughly with dead drifts, and only then try the skittering and dragging? I usually start out that way because dead drifting has been so ingrained for me. However, once I bring up a fish using a skittering fly, I tend to use the dead drift only for those fish that rose and didn’t take or missed the fly that was given action.

I’m gonna have to try this more often. Skittering a dry fly worked pretty well in North Carolina last spring, and was recommended to me by Walt Winter. It makes me think of all those time I’ve picked up my dry fly for a cast and pulled it away from a fish. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

You’d be downgrading that "calibre" part if you ever see me nymph. When dredging, I need all the help I can get.

Oh, if i live long enough I’m sure I will see it, because I’d like to fish with you at least once. And I’m sure you are exaggerating your difficulties. — Wayne Knight Expert in creating tailing loops and windknots Otherwise Fishless in Kansas

Response:

Peter,     Would you please describe in more detail the rods you use for this type of fishing? Best regards, Reed http://www.overmywaders.com/ It’s quite true that the tippet size isn’t a big deal on the swing as the fish tend to charge the fly.  However, on the dead drift part of the cast, the fish do get a good look at it.  In clear water fishing to "educated" trout, I downsize my tippet.  With the long, slow rods I use, the odds of a break-off are reduced. Peter

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Response:

Peter,    Would you please describe in more detail the rods you use for this type of fishing? Best regards, Reed http://www.overmywaders.com/

Reed Virtually any trout rod can be used to swing wets but the best rods are slow action ones that are 9′ or greater in length.  The slow action and the length provide greater line control and better roll casting.  With wet fly fishing, you try to avoid false casting and throwing fast, tight loops as you do not want to dry out the fly. Long, slow rods tend to cast gently with big, open loops.  They’ll also usually spey cast well.  Late last season, I bought a 10′ 6" East Branch 4 wt. for swing wets and the line control it afforded me was excellent.  BTW, it’s also best to use a double taper line for the same line control reasons.  I also use an old, very slow 10′ 6" Lamiglass 8/9 wt. for swinging wets to salmon and steelhead. HTH Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Willi suggested we get a thread going on wet fly techniques as it’s an under appreciated approach and one that can produce when other methods fail. Wet fly fishing essentially mimics the emerger stage and normally the flies are fished quite shallow.  Many of us resort to emerger nymphs when we see typical emerger riseforms however, wets were traditionally used years ago under the same conditions and there is no reason why they won’t be effective today. Wet flys come in two basic categories, winged wets such as the Lead Wing Coachman and soft hackle wets typified by the Partridge & Orange. Wet flies can be fished in a variety of ways: dead drifted or swung, as a dry with floatant, in the surface film, just under the surface, or deep like a nymph.  The presentation seeks to mimic a number of insect behaviours; emerging insect migration to the surface or shoreline, female egg laying dives, swimming nymphs, drowned spinners, emerger struggling through the surface tension, and the actual emergence of adult from the pupal/nymphal shuck. Considering this range of behaviours, any motion imparted to the fly should be at slow speed in keeping with the behaviour of the insect. The normal down and across swing first presents the fly with a dead drift, followed by an acceleration during the swing to a stop at the end of the swing.  The angle of the the cast with respect to the current should be dependent on current speed.  In a slow moving flat, the cast should be made at about 90 degrees to the current.  In fast water, the angle should be as little as 30 degrees.  By modifying the angle of the presentation, we can keep the speed of the fly within realistic proportions despite fast or slow current conditions.  In very slow current conditions, a downstream mend can be made to pull the fly along and prevent it from sinking to the bottom.  In still water, use a very slow , hesitating retrieve. In typical moderate currents, I favour an upstream cast at about 45 degrees followed by a highstick dead drift, followed in turn by the normal swing and ended with a Leisering lift.  Strikes can occur at any point and can be particularly difficult to detect in the upstream dead drift section.  If you think you are missing strikes, place a very small indicator a few feet above the fly. Good mending contributes to getting the fly down, keeping a straight line to enhance strike detection and prolonging the dead drift portion.  After the initial upstream cast, I make a series of small mends to prevent a belly from forming.  I’m also raising the rod tip to take up the slack line that accumulates as the fly approaches.  As the fly drifts by me, I prolong the dead drift by dropping the rod tip and continuing to mend.  Once the the line is fully extended and the rod tip is low, I allow the fly to swing in the current, continuing to mend ot keep the line straight.  Once I’ve completed the lift at the end of the drift, I make an upstream lob cast to start the next drift. I try to avoid false-casting as I want the fly to remain wet so it will sink immediately.  False casting will dry it out.  I will false cast though if I’m using a wet to simulate a drowned spinner. Normally I use a long, slow four to six weight rod, a double taper floating line for good mending, long 10′ to 14′ leaders, fine tippet 5X and smaller, and no splitshot.  If I want the wet to sink deep, I use fluorocarbon tippet and a series of upstream mends to get it down. Wets can be employed as a searching pattern or fished to specific fish holding target zones.  During the swing phase, if the fly is deep and passing a good "fishy" spot, gently lift the rod tip so that the fly will swing up like and emerging insect.  If there’s a fish holding there, this behaviour will likely provoke a strike. Wets are a gentle, peaceful, traditional way of fishing and I often resort to it whenever I’m just out fishing to relax.  It lacks the activity of streamer retrieves, the concentration of dries and the indicator watching of nymphing.  Most strikes on the swing are felt rather than seen so intense watching isn’t needed as much.  Tradironal wets, IMHO are the most attractive of trout flys and I enjoy tying them more than any other kind.  If you haven’t tried wet flies before, tie up a bunch and get swinging. Peter

Response:

Willi suggested we get a thread going on wet fly techniques as it’s an under appreciated approach and one that can produce when other methods fail. (good info. snipped Peter

Peter, I will be heading up to the trout streams in the next few days and nymphing or wets will be the rule. Typically, on small streams I resist soft hackle flys because they just don’t get down without weight in the short drifts.  I use an AirFlo leader system. In using soft hackle and streamers should I go to a slow sink or hover leader? — Wayne To Fish is Human….To Release Divine!

Response:

<interesting stuff on wet flies snipped Agree entirely with your thoughts on wet fly fishing.  It’s still used extensively for brownies around where I live in Scotland, on both rivers and on lochs. I find wets tied in the spider style satisfying in their simplicity and aesthetic appeal (i.e. I can tie them) and very effective. One of the things I like is that you can fish the same rig  - I usually only use a single fly  or at most two – upstream or down as the situation demands and you can also cast to rising fish as though you were fishing dries. traprain

Response:

Peter, I will be heading up to the trout streams in the next few days and nymphing or wets will be the rule. Typically, on small streams I resist soft hackle flys because they just don’t get down without weight in the short drifts.  I use an AirFlo leader system. In using soft hackle and streamers should I go to a slow sink or hover leader? — Wayne To Fish is Human….To Release Divine!

As I fish soft hackles as a drowned spinner or emerger, I don’t worry about getting it down too deep.  Most of my stikes have come within the top six inches of the water column.  Soft hackles tied on a traditionalheavy wire wet fly hook like a Mustad 3906 or 3906B will have a pretty good sink rate.  I’ve seen factory wets tied on light wire hooks and these won’t get down much.  I actually prefer to have both with me so I can fish shallow or deep. As far as the Airflo leaders go, a clear intermediate would be my choice.   Peter

Response:

Wet fly fishing essentially mimics the emerger stage and normally the flies are fished quite shallow.

Good wet fly fishing synopsis deleted. As I’ve become more and more disgruntled with using weight, I’ve found myself fishing wet flies, usually soft hackles, more often. My favorite technique, mainly because it is so fun, is one I use in pocket water or rapids. I generally use a cast of two flies.  Sometimes I use two wets, but more often I use a fairly large, bushy dry caddis with a smaller, soft hackle on a dropper of about two feet. I tend to use this technique in the heat of the day or during other times when there’s little surface activity. The technique is a very active one that thoroughly covers alot of area in a short time. I generally hit each spot with a series of short, dead drift casts. As each cast begins to swing, I raise my rod tip and swing the flies through all likely lies below me with the dry skittering along the top and the wet dragging just under or at the surface. My next coverage will be a cast directly across stream. I immediately raise my rod tip and drag the flies back across the current. My last coverage of an area is a series a upstream casts where I drag the flies back toward me moving downstream at a pretty rapid rate. If no fish were stirred, I move up stream and cover the next section of the stream. This technique results in many missed strikes because of the moving fly. It will also results in many bulges, refusals, flashes etc. For every fish hooked, there will be about half a dozen fish that will move toward the flies and show you their lies. On these fish, I general cover the area surrounding the place where the fish showed with a series of dead drifts.  About half the time, I’ll hook the fish. Most of them will take the wet. The ability of this technique to bring fish up to the surface during periods of no surface activity and the viciousness of the strikes, makes this technique alot of fun. On my home water, there is a sizable Brown that sits in some shallow pocket water. I’ve moved it a number of times with this technique and hooked once but never landed it. I’ve been unable to interest this fish in any "normally" presented fly. Maybe next year. Willi

Response:

Wets are a gentle, peaceful, traditional way of fishing and I often resort to it whenever I’m just out fishing to relax.  [snip] Most

strikes on the swing are felt rather than seen so intense watching isn’t needed as much.  Tradironal wets, IMHO are the most attractive of trout flys and I enjoy tying them more than any other kind.  If you haven’t tried wet flies before, tie up a bunch and get swinging.

I had never even considered fishing a wet fly until I met up with Joel Axelrad in Wisconsin a couple of years ago, I caught a couple of fish but Joel was killing them in almost every pool fishing a traditional wet fly. I used his technique a later on the Manistee during a bright June day where nothing was hatching and caught brookie after brookie. Since then whenever nothing is happening I go to a wet before I go to a nymph. I fish straight accross regardless of the current, mend at least once after the cast and high stick on down and around, almost all of the strikes I have detected have been on the upstream drift. It lacks [snip] the indicator watching of nymphing

Why would a fisherman of your caliber even think of using a bobber on a nymph, the Juan with a size 28 fly maybe, but Ontario? <g — Wayne Knight Expert in creating tailing loops and windknots Otherwise Fishless in Kansas

Response:

The technique is a very active one that thoroughly covers alot of area in a short time. I generally hit each spot with a series of short, dead drift casts. As each cast begins to swing, I raise my rod tip and swing the flies through all likely lies below me with the dry skittering along the top and the wet dragging just under or at the surface. My next coverage will be a cast directly across stream. I immediately raise my rod tip and drag the flies back across the current. My last coverage of an area is a series a upstream casts where I drag the flies back toward me moving downstream at a pretty rapid rate. If no fish were stirred, I move up stream and cover the next section of the stream.

Could you clarify this, Willi? Do you first fish the spot thoroughly with dead drifts, and only then try the skittering and dragging? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

0] : Willi suggested we get a thread going on wet fly techniques as it’s an : under appreciated approach and one that can produce when other methods : fail. …. : Normally I use a long, slow four to six weight rod, a double taper : floating line for good mending, long 10′ to 14′ leaders, fine tippet : 5X and smaller, and no splitshot.  If I want the wet to sink deep, I : use fluorocarbon tippet and a series of upstream mends to get it down. …. : Peter Peter, nice esssay, covers the water well. A couple of comments — I find that even with fairly fussy spring creek trout I can go fairly heavy on tippet–4x, even 3x–and still catch lots of fish with soft hackles on the swing. With this I usually tie the fly into a loop so that the stiffer tippet doesn’t affect its action as much. This lack of tippet shyness is not my original observation. Sylvester Nemes remarks on it in his series of books on soft hackles. Also if I want to get down with a wet fly, I prefer to go to a sink tip rather than put weight on the tippet, and of course use the upstream mends. Nice to be talking about fishing here rather than politics and other distractions. Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories  (remove x’s from email if not      Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971   a spammer) Phone: (650)-857-5491              

Response:

[snip] Why would a fisherman of your caliber even think of using a bobber on a nymph, the Juan with a size 28 fly maybe, but Ontario? <g — Wayne Knight

You’d be downgrading that "calibre" part if you ever see me nymph. When dredging, I need all the help I can get. Peter

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Peter Peter, nice esssay, covers the water well. A couple of comments — I find that even with fairly fussy spring creek trout I can go fairly heavy on tippet–4x, even 3x–and still catch lots of fish with soft hackles on the swing. With this I usually tie the fly into a loop so that the stiffer tippet doesn’t affect its action as much. This lack of tippet shyness is not my original observation. Sylvester Nemes remarks on it in his series of books on soft hackles. Also if I want to get down with a wet fly, I prefer to go to a sink tip rather than put weight on the tippet, and of course use the upstream mends. Nice to be talking about fishing here rather than politics and other distractions. Mike

It’s quite true that the tippet size isn’t a big deal on the swing as the fish tend to charge the fly.  However, on the dead drift part of the cast, the fish do get a good look at it.  In clear water fishing to "educated" trout, I downsize my tippet.  With the long, slow rods I use, the odds of a break-off are reduced. Peter

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Question:

Anyone who know about a really good book about Clasic Salmonflies? Ole A Andreassen http://www.flyfishing-illustrated.com

Response:

If you really want the classic book Try Geoge M. Kelson "The salmon fly" Dr T.E. Pryce, Tannatt "How to dress salmon flies Francis Francis "Book on angling" J.H. Hale "how to tie salmon flies William Blacker "The art of fly making" If you want more recent books on classic fly try Radencich Mikael Frodin Joseph Bates Ken Sawada Judith Dunham Paul Schmookler Poul Jorgensen Hope this help! Robert Mayrand – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Organization: Nextra Public Access Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Anyone who know about a really good book about Clasic Salmonflies? Ole A Andreassen http://www.flyfishing-illustrated.com

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Question:

If you start a fire for the womanly thing still in bed, it tends to postpone the fishing !

For newlyweds, maybe.  For me, if I try something at 5 in the morning, she says, "Will you get the hell out of here and go fishing?" Kevin

Response:

If you start a fire for the womanly thing still in bed, it tends to postpone the fishing !

That’s when you play fireman on the fly Guy

Response:

Jeff Connelly writes: Oh man, I saw the bathroom in your place.  You guys are complaining? For those who weren’t there, I won’t say how big the bathroom was, but I’ll just say it had a FOYER, which itself was bigger than my entire bathroom.  In *my* cabin, I had 2 twin beds that Benee and I had to push together to share bodily warmth, and she had to crawl over the top of me to get to the bathroom.  Hey wait… guess I had it OK. <g  All of these camps are crooked; they have settled over the years so that doors and windows have been "modified" so that they are functional.

[snipped] Just a nit, but the cabins don’t really "settle" in the sense that they sink. Quite the opposite, in fact: the cabins rest on a sets of small concrete pads, and these pads get heaved up during the multitude of freeze and thaw cycles in late winter/early spring. Some pads get heaved higher than others, hence the tilt. It’s a never ending battle with winter up there… On the up-side, if you can still make your way to the bathroom and back without falling over, you can have another drink! /daytripper

Response:

……the cabins don’t really "settle" in the sense that they sink. Quite the opposite, in fact: the cabins rest on a sets of small concrete pads, and these pads get heaved up during the multitude of freeze and thaw cycles in late winter/early spring. Some pads get heaved higher than others, hence the tilt…..

Amen.  I build decks and gazebos and suchlike critters.  While I’m digging holes for the footings customers will frequently ask how deep they need to be to hold up the deck or something along those lines. It’s often difficult to make them understand that the purpose of deep footings is to hold it DOWN.  Sorta like trying to explain why the new millennium started some time in March about four years ago.    :)

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Jeff Connelly writes: It was my type of place, and I knew it would be.  The question was – would Benee like it?  So we compromised, went fishing at a semi-rustic lodge for 3 days, then stayed in "nice" bed and breakfasts for 3 days. The ironic thing is that the B&Bs weren’t that nice, and she ended up liking Lakewood more.

Of course she did.  It was probably…..well, never mind.  I’m starting to sounds like wayno.  She’s a great gal and I’m glad she enjoyed it. And, don’t forget to have your stove ready for a fire when you arise at 4 a.m.  <g I got up at 5 one morning to go fishing.  As you pointed out to me later, the manly thing to do would have been to start the fire for the womanly thing still in bed.  It’ll happen next time

You are learning, kid. Dave the Bottom Dwelling Pirate (after George’s latest, I am so happy that he chose to describe me with those words…)

Response:

Day Tripper: Just a nit, but the cabins don’t really "settle" in the sense that they sink. Quite the opposite, in fact: the cabins rest on a sets of small concrete pads, and these pads get heaved up during the multitude of freeze and thaw cycles in late winter/early spring. Some pads get heaved higher than others, hence the tilt. It’s a never ending battle with winter up there…

The concrete pads are recent — the past ten years or so.  They used rocks and cedar posts before that — but, as you say, it is a never ending battle because of the harsh winters. Dave

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well, boys, it’s been told, and i’ll never do a bit to improve on the reports about the maine clave…but, damn, ya’ll shoulda been there. it was a time to know, and a better memory is yet to be made.

Ya, go ahead, rub our nose in it. As i mentionned, i would have been, even if none of you know me. Hand four those dat read these lines (grammatically), I wont mind if sumone corect me english, and i know it will make sum of you feel bitter, sorry better. Once again, excuse my french and Vive le Qu

Question:

Is there any small lake fish that cannot be successfully and easily caught with a hook, worm and bobber? I ask this because I am amazed at how much stuff I have to catch bass/muskie/northern etc. that often gets no hits whatsoever, but a meaty nightcrawler almost always sinks the bobber within a few minutes and it’s anyone’s guss what will be pulled out of the water.  I have also noticed that a yellow or green 1-2" curly tail on a jig is almost as good. I am getting tempted to leave my tackle box at home and just bring a small pocket sized box with me containing several hooks, bobbers, plastic curltails in various colors/sizes and jigs. Today I went canoe fishing on Hooker Lake in Kenosha, WI.  I used a 3" floating rapala, a floating frog(green and white), a silver shad colored slug-go fished near top and near bottom, a 4" semi transparent minnow looking thing at all depths, a realistic looking and scented plastic worm about 6"(after a while I even tipped the hook with a real wax worm) and a smallish spinner bait.  I tried every type of presentation I could think of. I fished shallow, I fished deep.  I fished weeds, I fished docks, I fished every bit of structure I could find, I fished open water. I caught nothing for 5 hours, not even a little hit. I saw some guy go out onto his pier in his back yard, throw a nightcrawler/bobber rig into the water and figured he was panfishing. Within 30 seconds he pulled out what had to have been a 20+ inch bass.  I was jealous.  He didn’t even look excited about it, like he was used to this sort of thing. I switched to nightcrawler and bobber. I caught perch, bluegill, bass, an impressively large shad, and almost got into the boat what looked to be a sub legal size northern (don’t know what he was doing in hooker lake.)  all within the 90 minutes I had left before I had to head in. Anyone else feel my pain? — Dave A

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Sorry Dave, no pain felt here.  You were versitile enough to change when you saw someone else catching fish on something you knew caught fish, and you adapted.  Good job…next time, throw out a rod with live bait, and fish with a lure simultaneously, and perhaps the combo rigging will tell you sooner, which presentation they prefer.  Keep at it. — "Mad-Mikey"  At first, fishing and hunting were just hobbies,              then they became addictions taking all my time              and money. If they ever find a cure for these              sicknesses—   I’m refusing treatment. Before you buy.

Response:

Hi Dave! I am mainly a fly fisherman.  I had not dunked a worm since I was about 14… 20+ years ago.  For the past two weeks I have been messing around with worms and I’m having a ball!  I’ve caught walleye, catfish, various panfish and my first ever large mouth bass and drum. Good luck! — Fritz – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is there any small lake fish that cannot be successfully and easily caught with a hook, worm and bobber? I ask this because I am amazed at how much stuff I have to catch bass/muskie/northern etc. that often gets no hits whatsoever, but a meaty nightcrawler almost always sinks the bobber within a few minutes and it’s anyone’s guss what will be pulled out of the water.  I have also noticed that a yellow or green 1-2" curly tail on a jig is almost as good. I am getting tempted to leave my tackle box at home and just bring a small pocket sized box with me containing several hooks, bobbers, plastic curltails in various colors/sizes and jigs. Today I went canoe fishing on Hooker Lake in Kenosha, WI.  I used a 3" floating rapala, a floating frog(green and white), a silver shad colored slug-go fished near top and near bottom, a 4" semi transparent minnow looking thing at all depths, a realistic looking and scented plastic worm about 6"(after a while I even tipped the hook with a real wax worm) and a smallish spinner bait.  I tried every type of presentation I could think of. I fished shallow, I fished deep.  I fished weeds, I fished docks, I fished every bit of structure I could find, I fished open water. I caught nothing for 5 hours, not even a little hit. I saw some guy go out onto his pier in his back yard, throw a nightcrawler/bobber rig into the water and figured he was panfishing. Within 30 seconds he pulled out what had to have been a 20+ inch bass.  I was jealous.  He didn’t even look excited about it, like he was used to this sort of thing. I switched to nightcrawler and bobber. I caught perch, bluegill, bass, an impressively large shad, and almost got into the boat what looked to be a sub legal size northern (don’t know what he was doing in hooker lake.)  all within the 90 minutes I had left before I had to head in. Anyone else feel my pain? — Dave A

Response:

Question:

Anybody know of a good spot(s) for flyfishing near Dead Mans’s Flats in Alberta?  I will be going there in August this year. Thanks for your help. Greg

Response:

You can have the whole of the upper Bow river to fish in from Dead Mans Flats as well ..head up to the Limestone quarry on the way to Banff about 30 minutes from Dead Mans……Browns are there to be had as well as rainbows.. take a lunch and enjoy the scenery along the way!!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anybody know of a good spot(s) for flyfishing near Dead Mans’s Flats in Alberta?  I will be going there in August this year. Thanks for your help. Greg

Response:

Question:

The title just about says it all.  I’m just starting out fly fishing for steelheads and am planning to haunt the NE Ohio/ NW PA lake Erie tribs in the near future.  Any information, stories, suggestions, or stern warnings would be appreciated. —                        http://members.tripod.com/~trunculo/index

Response:

Watch the weather…  I don’t know how far you will be driving, but you don’t want to have to go back home and get an ice pick.. Actually, this Winter has offered more open water than any in my memory.  PA stream conditions are posted intermittently at the NWPA Chapter of TU web site.  I do not have the url handy, but just put Northwest PA Chapter Trout Unlimited into any of the popular search engines and you will get there.

Response:

Thanks for the tips.  As luck would have it, I drove up there last week and found myself trying to calculate just how much split shot would be required to sink my egg pattern through several feet of slush to where the fishies are.  Oh well, Elk Creek is very pretty and I’ll be heading back up there. On the way home, I stopped by a local (Clear Fork Creek, by Mansfield, OH) trout stream and did pretty well on olive woolly buggers.  Life could be _much_ worse. : Watch the weather…  I don’t know how far you will be driving, but you don’t : want to have to go back home and get an ice pick.. : Actually, this Winter has offered more open water than any in my memory.  PA : stream conditions are posted intermittently at the NWPA Chapter of TU web site. :  I do not have the url handy, but just put Northwest PA Chapter Trout Unlimited : into any of the popular search engines and you will get there. —                        http://members.tripod.com/~trunculo/index

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Sorry to post a double follow-up, but that url is http://www.tu.org/index.html    Thanks for the tip! : Watch the weather…  I don’t know how far you will be driving, but you don’t : want to have to go back home and get an ice pick.. : Actually, this Winter has offered more open water than any in my memory.  PA : stream conditions are posted intermittently at the NWPA Chapter of TU web site. :  I do not have the url handy, but just put Northwest PA Chapter Trout Unlimited : into any of the popular search engines and you will get there. —                        http://members.tripod.com/~trunculo/index

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Question:

Jess, I support catch and release of wild trout, (deleted) The phrase "Catch and Release of Wild Trout" is an oxymoron.

<snip Maybe "Catch and Release Non-Hatchery Reared Fish" wouldn’t fit on the license plate frame. You know very well what Ernie meant. I win lots of debates with my wife by pretending not to understand what she is talking about when she makes a good point, but I am an amateur compared to you. Jeff Runner

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William Loehman wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Black and white arguments are almost always untrue or come down to a strict definition of a word and don’t apply to the real world. Trout can be caught a number of times and still have what is to me , the essence of their wildness: they fear people.  It takes constant daily contact with people and numerous hookups  to over-ride this instinct.  The Juan, The Green & The Pan are the prime samples of this. The fish in these rivers are attracted to wading anglers because of the food they kick up rather than fearing them. This was a necessary adaptation for them in order to survive in the presence of the hoards of fishermen, but make for a very unnatural existance. They are no longer "trout" but trained fish.

I agree with all of this.  However, I still enjoy fishing the San Juan when I take my annual trip.  It may be that pound for pound a truly wild fish would give a better fight than one that’s grown up in the San Juan – but I find that many of the fights I’ve had have been plenty exciting.  I admit that aesthetically I value catching truly wild fish, but I have very little opportunity to do so, and since I’m not a 40 fish a day guy, even on the San Juan, I haven’t become sated by the tailwater-nymphing experience like some have. Perhaps someday I will.  Even so, I still think I’ll support the existence of these kinds of fisheries to accommodate all of the fishers who enjoy it.  I accept the fact that in order to get to ‘purer’ fishing, I’ll have to go to the less accessible places or conform to far more restrictive regulations. —                                                             -dnc- to reply, change ‘dnc’ to ‘dcollins’ in email address

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Not to beat a dead horse, but… Moe Skeeter wrote fiddleaway wrote It is not an oxymoron the very first time a wild trout is caught (in its life).  You have a point that repeated catchings may cause trout to behave less ‘wildly’ – though your anecdote is not proof, I will admit that your assertion stands to reason. I do not understand how you can say that…100 is bigger than 1, but 1 is just as valid a number. You seemed to understand as I explained further (see below), but to reiterate; if I take (what seems to be) your definition of wild< – a trout that has had no interaction with humans – then the trout is wild until it is caught the first time (well, I suppose you could say that the trout is wild until it is hooked.  

- forgive guys but the idea that any animal that has interacted with people is ‘no longer wild’ is absurd. As usual what we’ve got is some people getting confused with the basics  of the English Language. The word ‘wild’ can have a number of meanings depending on the context of the statement. So to say a land is wild or even ‘wilderness’ (two different words with different meanings) indicating it is uneffected by the action of man – or more acurately ‘in it’s natutal state’ has zip to do with weather a fish is wild. A couple of years ago my wife and I were on a early morning hike before spending a few hours on our favourite lake. We saw a deer and the deer saw us. Both parties stopped to contemplate each other, the deer not sure what we were up to. My wife and I whispered to each other and we could see the deer’s big ears swivel to pick up our speech. That’s interaction! Did it tame the deer? Does a fish cease to be wild when it’s been hooked and lost? Does it cease to be wild because it has seen a person and fled or conversely has not fled? (as often happens with wild salmon in these parts – you practicaly have to step on them before they retreat downstream.) What we’ve got here is someone trying to use ‘wild’ as a sort of weasel word to continue to condemn c&r. I can’t see how many times a fish is released effects it’s wildness. As long as they continue to have a flight reaction to the hook and pull of the line they are untamed. Until they swim right to me and roll over to let me stroke their bellies they are wild. Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "take_this_out" for email reply

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A couple of years ago my wife and I were on a early morning hike before spending a few hours on our favourite lake. We saw a deer and the deer saw us. Both parties stopped to contemplate each other, the deer not sure what we were up to. My wife and I whispered to each other and we could see the deer’s big ears swivel to pick up our speech. That’s interaction! Did it tame the deer? Does a fish cease to be wild when it’s been hooked and lost? Does it cease to be wild because it has seen a person and fled or conversely has not fled? (as often happens with wild salmon in these parts – you practicaly have to step on them before they retreat downstream.) What we’ve got here is someone trying to use ‘wild’ as a sort of weasel word to continue to condemn c&r. I can’t see how many times a fish is released effects it’s wildness. As long as they continue to have a flight reaction to the hook and pull of the line they are untamed. Until they swim right to me and roll over to let me stroke their bellies they are wild.

I agree with most of this but the trout in some of our heavilly fished tailwaters do just about what you suggest.  They are attracted to rather than disturbed by wading anglers. They will actually set up feeding stations just downstream of the angler. This IS tamed & trained. Willi

Response:

[some deleted] forgive guys but the idea that any animal that has interacted with people is ‘no longer wild’ is absurd.

You seem to acknowledge ‘degrees’ of wildness…let’s start there. Again, I will quote the current High Priest of Flyfishing Philosphy himself, John Gierach (That is what he is called on the back cover of "Another Lousy Day In Paradise").   Where, when fishing in a spot that had never been fished by anyone, he referred to the fish as "perfectly" wild.  His definition or "Perfectly" Wild was fish that had not been fished for by man. We are *all* on the same page on this score, oui ? I am not saying that a fish C&R-ed is ‘no longer wild’.  I am saying that it is ‘less wild’.  Further, the continued practice of C&R on that same fish will remove the ‘wild’ from it completely and this is clearly evidenced in those heavily fished places where the so called ‘wild’ trout bear no resemblence to the real McCoy. I stick by my guns. "C&R WILD TROUT" *is* an oxymoron. Every time you release it it becomes less and less wild until it is no longer wild.  If you don’t agree with this..well, than you must at least agree that it is (at the very least) *counterproductive* if the goal of C&R’ing fish is to preserve ‘Wild Trout’, which is what people (ostensibly) believe they are doing when they buy the license plate frame for their Orvis Jeep and release 7 pound "park trout" back into the upper Frying Pan river. This is not simple conjecture Ralph. It is hard fact based on empirical observations. A couple of years ago my wife and I were on a early morning hike before spending a few hours on our favourite lake. We saw a deer and the deer saw us. Both parties stopped to contemplate each other, the deer not sure what we were up to. My wife and I whispered to each other and we could see the deer’s big ears swivel to pick up our speech. That’s interaction! Did it tame the

deer? Yes.  In fact you *really* surprise my by this comment.  That animal lose their fear of humans when exposed to them, for example in public campgrounds, and city dumps is a really bad thing and might be fatal for the animal.  If you would have thrown a rock at the deer and chased it with a stick, you would have done it a huge favor, IMO. Even if your wife thinks you’re an asshole for the act. Does a fish cease to be wild when it’s been hooked and lost? Does it cease to be wild because it has seen a person and fled or conversely has not fled? (as often happens with wild salmon in these parts – you practicaly have to step on them before they retreat downstream.)

Every time a fish encounters man and is not killed it becomes less and less wild.  This is pretty clear based on the definition of wild, and apparently, many people agree.   Including The Prophet. What we’ve got here is someone trying to use ‘wild’ as a sort of weasel

word to continue to condemn c&r. Pure C&R is self-condemning, it doesn’t need me. I can’t see how many times a fish is released effects it’s wildness.

*THIS* has been *CLEARLY* established. Like I said Ralphie.  You’ve got no heart.  No feeling for this subject at all.  Why not take up a sport that doesn’t involve the exploitation of Wild Animals, I’ll give you a good homebrew recipe ?  Whaddya say ?  You obviously need a break. As long as they continue to have a flight reaction to the hook and pull of the line they are untamed.

Bullshit. Do a little experiment Ralphie.   Tie up some milk-bone imitations on a 2/0 Sproat and sight cast to Ms. Wilson’s poodle. What happens when you hook the little beggar ? Oh…I forgot…you live in BC where the Poodles are Wild and the Men have huge plonkers. Until they swim right to me and roll over to let me stroke their bellies they are wild.

Like I said, the invitation to come fish the Frying Pan or the San Juan remains open big boy.  Mitch will guide us and I will be the photographer (I refuse to fish there…10 pound lipless park trout or not). I just hope I can capture the ‘essence’ of your disappointment on film when they roll over and let you stroke their bellies. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

Moe Skeeter wrote Ralph H wrote [some deleted] forgive guys but the idea that any animal that has interacted with people is ‘no longer wild’ is absurd. You seem to acknowledge ‘degrees’ of wildness…let’s start there. … John Gierach ….  His definition or "Perfectly" Wild was fish that had not been fished for by man. We are *all* on the same page on this score, oui ?

Everybody step close together and smile for this Kodak moment – I think we can all get behind this, so far. I am not saying that a fish C&R-ed is ‘no longer wild’.  I am saying that it is ‘less wild’.

So far, so good. Further, the continued practice of C&R on that same fish will remove the ‘wild’ from it completely and this is clearly evidenced in those heavily fished places where the so called ‘wild’ trout bear no resemblence to the real McCoy.

Oops! Hyperbole alert!  completely< and no resemblance to the real McCoy<.  Tim’s world view surfaces.  Fine.  We know your values.  Ours are different. (and better of course <g) I stick by my guns. "C&R WILD TROUT" *is* an oxymoron. Every time you release it it becomes less and less wild until it is no longer wild.

In the immortal words of Ronnie, "There you go again!"  It is at best now a very weak oxymoron since a really strong one (like guest host) requires words having strongly opposing values.  "Continued catch & release of a wild fish"…now that’s waxing a little more oxymoronic … but it doesn’t quite have that ring you want for a license plate slogan.  Keep trying though, playing with words is fun, just as long as you don’t take yourself so seriously that you use such games to support serious conclusions. Here’s a good example to get you started:  When you honor a fish by killing and eating it you are exhibiting a cruel kindness<. If you don’t agree with this..well, than you must at least agree that it is (at the very least) *counterproductive* if the goal of C&R’ing fish is to preserve ‘Wild Trout’, which is what people (ostensibly) believe they are doing when they buy the license plate frame for their Orvis Jeep and release 7 pound "park trout" back into the upper Frying Pan river. This is not simple conjecture Ralph. It is hard fact based on empirical observations.

What have you observed other than seeing people return their catch.  This is hardly evidence for the motivations for doing so.  Or have you carried out extensive, scholarly research on the subject?  (The use of the word ‘ostensibly’ makes me think the answer is no). No, it is not counterproductive.  Released fish spawn and their offspring are wild.  Not so for caught fish. I have never assumed that the singular goal of C&R is preserving wild trout.  Although, it does quite nicely in many situations.  For example, if I hike into a less accessible spot and catch trout that (a) have never been caught before or (b) are a tad less wild because they’ve been caught once, then releasing these trout still allows them to be fairly wild (as opposed to dead) and to continue to produce wild offspring.  So no, I do not feel compelled to agree with your imperative.  But keep working at it, my ears are open. Pure C&R is self-condemning, it doesn’t need me.

The fact that you are the only one on ROFF who seems to believe this belies the statement. Convince me otherwise.  (Boy I like that phrase…thanks) I can’t see how many times a fish is released effects it’s wildness. *THIS* has been *CLEARLY* established.

Point taken.  (again)   Like I said Ralphie.  You’ve got no heart.  No feeling for this subject at all.  Why not take up a sport that doesn’t involve the exploitation of Wild Animals, I’ll give you a good homebrew recipe ?  Whaddya say ?  You obviously need a break.

It’s obvious to me from your posts that you are a fairly bright guy, so when I see statements like this I can only think you must be suffering from overindulgence in your own homebrew.  (BTW – telling someone they have no heart, especially after they’ve indicated that they respect what you say, could be construed as a particularly heartless act) Ralph H. wrote As long as they continue to have a flight reaction to the hook and pull of the line they are untamed. Bullshit.

Sorry, I have you on record (see Kodak moment above) as saying that there are varying degrees of wildness, so your BS is BS (so what else is new?) Like I said, the invitation to come fish the Frying Pan or the San Juan remains open big boy.  Mitch will guide us and I will be the photographer (I refuse to fish there…10 pound lipless park trout or not).

I’ll probably be at the San Juan the 2nd or 3rd week of next October.  If you want, we can meet there and if more than 10% of the fish I catch have injured lips, I’ll give you a hundred bucks and you will give me a hundred bucks if less than 10% have injured lips.  (Exactly 10% will be a push). Plus the loser will submit an appropriately humble posting on ROFF. —                                                             -dnc- to reply, change ‘dnc’ to ‘dcollins’ in email address

Response:

I’ll probably be at the San Juan the 2nd or 3rd week of next October.  If you want, we can meet there and if more than 10% of the fish I catch have injured lips, I’ll give you a hundred bucks and you will give me a hundred bucks if less than 10% have injured lips.  (Exactly 10% will be a push). Plus the loser will submit an appropriately humble posting on ROFF.

I’ll take that bet. Willi

Response:

I don’t bet against friends, no matter what the outcome, we both lose. — TimW Halfordian Golfer – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll probably be at the San Juan the 2nd or 3rd week of next October.  If you want, we can meet there and if more than 10% of the fish I catch have injured lips, I’ll give you a hundred bucks and you will give me a hundred bucks if less than 10% have injured lips.  (Exactly 10% will be a push). Plus the loser will submit an appropriately humble posting on ROFF. I’ll take that bet.

Response:

Willi,         Don’t you think that this could be classified as being opportuinistic or at least a learned behavior?  If you could find somewhere where a repeated action produced something you were eager to experience(a certain hatch at a certain time at a certain place) that you would learn to be there?  tamed? maybe just taking advantage. jim

To me, a wild animal is tamed when it no longer displays its instinct fear of man.  When people teach animals behavior, they are trained.  We may disagree about definitions, but these "trout" display unnatural behavior. Willi

Response:

As is often the case, a singular action is not bad in and of itself.  It only becomes bad when done to excess (and then of course the term excess becomes the point of controversy).

I agree completely. Black and white arguments are almost always untrue or come down to a strict definition of a word and don’t apply to the real world. Trout can be caught a number of times and still have what is to me , the essence of their wildness: they fear people.  It takes constant daily contact with people and numerous hookups  to over-ride this instinct.  The Juan, The Green & The Pan are the prime samples of this. The fish in these rivers are attracted to wading anglers because of the food they kick up rather than fearing them. This was a necessary adaptation for them in order to survive in the presence of the hoards of fishermen, but make for a very unnatural existance. They are no longer "trout" but trained fish. Willi

Response:

.I take your point about fish that have been caught and released several times.  Take your pick: Would you rather catch 5 lb. trout that have been to school, or 10" hatchery fish?

Neither, one has been trained by man and the other one made by him. I like to fish for fish that at least approach being wild. Willi

Response:

Not to beat a dead horse, but… Moe Skeeter wrote fiddleaway wrote It is not an oxymoron the very first time a wild trout is caught (in its life).  You have a point that repeated catchings may cause trout to behave less ‘wildly’ – though your anecdote is not proof, I will admit that your assertion stands to reason. I do not understand how you can say that…100 is bigger than 1, but 1 is just as valid a number.

You seemed to understand as I explained further (see below), but to reiterate; if I take (what seems to be) your definition of wild< – a trout that has had no interaction with humans – then the trout is wild until it is caught the first time (well, I suppose you could say that the trout is wild until it is hooked.  So, even the act of landing the wild trout would be oxymoronic.  However, I think this sophistry is quickly becoming simply moronic).  Bottom line, the primary way you distinguish yourself from other flyfishers with regard to resource management is what you do with a wild trout after< it’s caught.  So, my point is, verbiage aside, catching a wild trout the first time is not oxymoronic.  Catching it a second time would be (given your definition of wild). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But, according to your definition, a wild trout can only be caught once .. whether it is released or eaten, it ceases to be a wild trout upon catching. so far so good… Now I’ll grant you that once a wild trout is caught, it’s fair to say that it is no longer wild so I guess its then fair to say that ‘release’ and ‘wild trout’ are oxymoronic.  But no less oxymoronic than saying, "Tonight I’m serving wild trout for dinner." I don’t rememember seeing "Tonight I am Serving Wild Trout For Dinner" License plate frames or as a slogan for our national fisheries management coalition…<g… (but…I like the sound of it and might have some printed up….HEY LICENSE FRAME DUDE !!! WHERE ARE YOU ???) It fits very neatly with the "Halfordian Golfer" theme.

I think its fair to attribute such a statement to you (especially since you like the sound of it).  And my point that such a statement is just as oxymoronic as "Catch and Release a Wild Trout" stands.  So if it’s oxymorons that lead to the decline of fisheries ( a strange notion…Caused by the mold?  -see below) you’re just as guilty as those who champion the release of wild trout. But, you’re shooting yourself in the foot and contradicting your first argument.   If the FIRST time is a freebie and it is still purely wild, it IS a wild trout whenn you kill and eat it.

No, you are contradicting your argument.  If it’s wild when you kill it, then its wild when you release it.  Ergo, no oxymoron.  The oxymoron exists for both or for neither. Now…eating Wild Trout…is that a bad thing ?  Of course not.   I mean…in colorado a valid management phrase could be… "EAT A WILD BROOKIE…SAVE A NATIVE CUTTHROAT".

As is often the case, a singular action is not bad in and of itself.  It only becomes bad when done to excess (and then of course the term excess becomes the point of controversy).  Catching and releasing a wild trout…is that a bad thing?  You< must say no, if I understand your SH method correctly (if a slot limit is used to implement it, for example). My point?  Neither your assertion of the goodness of a singularity nor your claim of oxymoronic practice distinguishes C&R from SH.  (With regard to wild fish…your definition of wild). As far as I know, Ernie was talking mainly about catching wild trout that meet your definition (never caught before).  Much the same attitude some guys have about virgins, I guess. Well, he *is* doing the same thing to them….<g

The picture this paints was worth the whole thread.  LMAO.  (Sorry Ernie – I’m sure you can counter with a clever rejoinder) Claiming that an oxymoron is somehow counter-productive to having real Wild Trout is the kind of statement one might expect from one having the fertile mind of a fruitcake Actually,  if you leave fruitcake lying around, molds will grow…unless it is rum soaked.  Someone said that’s how they knew Christmas was over….you mistake your fruitcake for your ghia pet.

At least you don’t have to worry about going bald. —                                                             -dnc- to reply, change ‘dnc’ to ‘dcollins’ in email address

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[deleted] Now if want to look at a phrase that’s oxymoronic and invented by an oxymoron just think of ‘pure catch and release’

I must say that this attack on our use of the phrase Pure C&R for purposes of discussion around here to be really frustrating.  It is fairly obviously simply an attempt at accuracy. Also, I must point out that it was not me that originally coined it…although I did adopt it at as fairly obvious and positive contribution to the discussion.   It has served the discussion really well, IMO, it is just that Anesthesized Testicles himself (Jimbo) doesn’t like it…truth is I don’t know what Jimbo likes as the only thing he ever posts are bitches about me. Oh…BTW – I like your disclaimer ralph… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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 It has served the discussion really well, IMO, it is just that Anesthesized Testicles himself (Jimbo) doesn’t like it…truth is I don’t know what Jimbo likes as the only thing he ever posts are bitches

I suppose we can assume (ouch) he likes that! Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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Ernie Harrison wrote [snip] The best recipe for wild trout is to coat them with flour and corn meal and fry them over the camp fire.    

Don’t forget the butter! —                                                             -dnc- to reply, change ‘dnc’ to ‘dcollins’ in email address

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Ernie Harrison wrote [snip] The best recipe for wild trout is to coat them with flour and corn meal and fry them over the camp fire. Don’t forget the butter!

C’mon SPRING ! — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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The slogan "Catch and Release Wild Trout"  *is* an oxymoron and really, really counter-productive to having real Wild Trout. Convince me otherwise.

It’s not an oxymoron. Let’s say you’re on a wilderness river.  You catch a native trout that’s never seen a fly or even a fisherman’s shadow.  It’s wild, right?  OK, we’re halfway there. Now you release it.         Steve Barnard I take your point about fish that have been caught and released several times.  Take your pick: Would you rather catch 5 lb. trout that have been to school, or 10" hatchery fish?

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Yes.  Fried.  In butter. Fishie fishie in the brook, Daddy catch ‘em on a hook. Momma fry ‘em in a pan, Baby eat ‘em like a man. I know, today, "Daddy" and "Momma" and "man" are interchangable, but it’s an old bit of poetry. Prometheus, no doubt out of pity for shivvering humans stuck with eating raw fish, stole fire from the gods on Mt. Olympus and gave us earthlings this warm present.  Somebody invented the skillet, somebody the wheel. Now, we get in our buggies and roll out to the creek or the lake and bring home FOOD.  To cook. Perhaps those who consider themselves higher than this, beyond this, holier than this, belong not with humans, but with the gods–who felt no pity for humans.   Ethically, morally, rationally, philosophically, NATUR-ALLY, anti-fishers, anti-eaters,  seem to lack understanding of what life’s all about for us poor mortals.  They seem to have no true feelings for humans OR for (other) animals.  They seem to be not nature lovers, but to see themselves as above nature, a holy lot, and so are in the way here, and belong in heaven, as Mark Twain said of those who do not repent of the "good" they try to do.   Love nature?  Love fish?  Love animals?  And still eat them?  Of course we go.  They give us milk, butter, meat, clothing.   And just as Prometheus had to swipe fire from Mt. Olympus, so must we yet continue to wrestle these "gifts" from the self-elected gods of today. Honestly, I try to understand all points of view, but I admit to discomfort in the company of  the self-righteous. Jess Thompson

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Jess, I support catch and release of wild trout, (not hatchery), but I don’t want you to get the idea that I never eat one or would try to tell you not to.  I don’t like the idea of filling the freezer with wild trout to take home with you.  We all have pictures of our ancestors standing beside 50 dead trout with a big smile on their face.  There are days when you could seriously deplete the trout population in a stream with a fly rod and fly.  We spend enough money to buy the fish in a store by the time we get to the stream, so we must be fishing for the experience, not the food. The best recipe for wild trout is to coat them with flour and corn meal and fry them over the camp fire.     — Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail Ernie Harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes.  Fried.  In butter. Fishie fishie in the brook, Daddy catch ‘em on a hook. Momma fry ‘em in a pan, Baby eat ‘em like a man. <snip Honestly, I try to understand all points of view, but I admit to discomfort in the company of  the self-righteous. Jess Thompson

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Jess, I support catch and release of wild trout, (deleted)

The phrase "Catch and Release of Wild Trout" is an oxymoron. Perhaps the ultimate oxymoron. It is not unlike "Break and Release of a Wild Horse". Think hard. What *is* a wild trout ?  A trout born and raised in "The Wild". What  *is* The Wild ?  Nature as God left it without the interference of man. Every time man visits the wild it is a little less wild. Every road or trail built into wilderness, it is a little less wild. and yes… Every time you catch and release a wild trout, it is less wild than it was before. If you *honestly* seek truth, this would be a pretty inescapable one. Consider: The fish are so used to people on The Frying Pan river now, that a careful stalk is less important than an exact imitation of the natural.  This is *EXACTLY* opposite of what fishing in Wilderness, to Wild Trout, is.   Yet, you see the "Catch and Release Wild Trout" License plate frames on virtually all of the SUV’s and mini-vans in The Parking Lot. This irony drives me mad ! On The Frying Pan river, I once landed a +5 LBS Wild Trout (Your words, not mine) in the current on 7X and a #20 biot emerger. This was no wild trout, I contend, as this would be impossible with a real 5 pound wild trout fighting for its life. But that’s just it, isn’t it ? The trout are not fighting for their life, not after being released a half a dozen times.  They come to hand like old boots up there. The slogan "Catch and Release Wild Trout"  *is* an oxymoron and really, really counter-productive to having real Wild Trout. Convince me otherwise. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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Moe Skeeter wrote The phrase "Catch and Release of Wild Trout" is an oxymoron.

[clever argument snipped] The slogan "Catch and Release Wild Trout"  *is* an oxymoron and really, really counter-productive to having real Wild Trout. Convince me otherwise.

It is not an oxymoron the very first time a wild trout is caught (in its life).  You have a point that repeated catchings may cause trout to behave less ‘wildly’ – though your anecdote is not proof, I will admit that your assertion stands to reason. But, according to your definition, a wild trout can only be caught once … whether it is released or eaten, it ceases to be a wild trout upon catching.  Now I’ll grant you that once a wild trout is caught, it’s fair to say that it is no longer wild so I guess its then fair to say that ‘release’ and ‘wild trout’ are oxymoronic.  But no less oxymoronic than saying, "Tonight I’m serving wild trout for dinner." As far as I know, Ernie was talking mainly about catching wild trout that meet your definition (never caught before).  Much the same attitude some guys have about virgins, I guess. Claiming that an oxymoron is somehow counter-productive to having real Wild Trout is the kind of statement one might expect from one having the fertile mind of a fruitcake Convince me otherwise. —                                                             -dnc- to reply, change ‘dnc’ to ‘dcollins’ in email address

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… The slogan "Catch and Release Wild Trout"  *is* an oxymoron and really, really counter-productive to having real Wild Trout. Convince me otherwise.

Well, Tim, you just have to consider humans as *part of* the wild!                            - jqt –

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It is not an oxymoron the very first time a wild trout is caught (in its life).  You have a point that repeated catchings may cause trout to behave less ‘wildly’ – though your anecdote is not proof, I will admit that your assertion stands to reason.

I do not understand how you can say that…100 is bigger than 1, but 1 is just as valid a number. But, according to your definition, a wild trout can only be caught once … whether it is released or eaten, it ceases to be a wild trout upon catching.

so far so good… Now I’ll grant you that once a wild trout is caught, it’s fair to say that it is no longer wild so I guess its then fair to say that ‘release’ and ‘wild trout’ are oxymoronic.  But no less oxymoronic than saying, "Tonight I’m serving wild trout for dinner."

I don’t rememember seeing "Tonight I am Serving Wild Trout For Dinner" License plate frames or as a slogan for our national fisheries management coalition…<g… (but…I like the sound of it and might have some printed up….HEY LICENSE FRAME DUDE !!! WHERE ARE YOU ???) It fits very neatly with the "Halfordian Golfer" theme. But, you’re shooting yourself in the foot and contradicting your first argument.   If the FIRST time is a freebie and it is still purely wild, it IS a wild trout whenn you kill and eat it. Now…eating Wild Trout…is that a bad thing ?  Of course not.   I mean…in colorado a valid management phrase could be… "EAT A WILD BROOKIE…SAVE A NATIVE CUTTHROAT". As far as I know, Ernie was talking mainly about catching wild trout that meet your definition (never caught before).  Much the same attitude some guys have about virgins, I guess.

Well, he *is* doing the same thing to them….<g Claiming that an oxymoron is somehow counter-productive to having real Wild Trout is the kind of statement one might expect from one having the fertile mind of a fruitcake

Actually,  if you leave fruitcake lying around, molds will grow…unless it is rum soaked.  Someone said that’s how they knew Christmas was over….you mistake your fruitcake for your ghia pet. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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The slogan "Catch and Release Wild Trout"  *is* an oxymoron and really, really counter-productive to having real Wild Trout. Convince me otherwise. Well, Tim, you just have to consider humans as *part of* the wild!

OK..Big boy, what does Wild and Wilderness mean …? — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jess, I support catch and release of wild trout, (deleted) The phrase "Catch and Release of Wild Trout" is an oxymoron. Perhaps the ultimate oxymoron. It is not unlike "Break and Release of a Wild Horse". Think hard. What *is* a wild trout ?  A trout born and raised in "The Wild". What  *is* The Wild ?  Nature as God left it without the interference of man.

if a wild trout is as you describe then "Catch and Release of Wild Trout" is not oxymoronic regardless if the fish has been caught the first time or the fifth time. However ‘wild’ means untamed or not domesticated or specifically ‘not requiring the hand of man to survive.’ That’s why a horse; an equine species domesticated and bred by man can be wild. Naturally spawned cutts in the little creek on my mother-in-laws property are wild even though the land is not or the fact me and my kids prick their lips from time to time. Kokanee is Colorado are another matter and clearly are not wild. Now if want to look at a phrase that’s oxymoronic and invented by an oxymoron just think of ‘pure catch and release’ ;^) Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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Question:

I have seen a number of books listed in various magizines regarding fishing with a drift boat.  Living in the east, I can’t review any of these at a store.  I was wondering if anyone has read some of these and can forward a review. Ian

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I have seen a number of books listed in various magizines regarding fishing with a drift boat.  Living in the east, I can’t review any of these at a store.  I was wondering if anyone has read some of these and can forward a review. Ian

Hi Ian, I can’t steer you toward a book about using and fishing from a drift boat but Lamoine Hyde at the Hyde Drift Boat Company has produced an excellent instructional video about operating and fishing from a drift boat. You can contact them at 208-529-4343 and ask about the video. You won’t be displeased — I’ve been running a drift boat for 14 years and picked up a tip I’ve incorporated into my arsenal of tricks. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 materials catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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I have seen a number of books listed in various magizines

regarding fishing with a drift boat.  Living in the east, I can’t review any of these at a store.  I was wondering if anyone has read some of these and can forward a review.<< Ian, Neele Streaks, _Drift Boat Fly Fishing_, is by far the best book on the subject. It is full of information on drift boating, but also on fly fishing in general. If drift boating is in your future, sell your shirt and get it. Expensive, but small print and beautiful photography. — Scott Branyan Rogers, AR http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/flyflinger

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I have seen a number of books listed in various magizines regarding fishing with a drift boat.  Living in the east, I can’t review any of these at a store.  I was wondering if anyone has read some of these and can forward a review. Ian

Neal Streek’s book is pretty good, though maybe a little light on actual boatmanship techniques.  "Whitewater Rafting", by William McGinnis, is reasonably good for that.

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Question:

What is a bow and arrow cast?

It is a cast used in areas of dense growth around the water you are fishing, where there is no room for a back cast. You pull the fly and leader and small amount of line back from the rod tip. The rod is held parallel to the water and the fly released. It then should shoot out and present to the fish in the difficult position. A very useful cast for sighted browns. Simon Simon Lusk Fly Fishing New Zealand on the WWW http://www-aghort.massey.ac.nz/flyfish/intro Department of Consumer Technology Massey University Palmerston North New Zealand

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What is a bow and arrow cast?<

It’s what the disgruntled archery hunter does after he lines up on that buck of a lifetime, draws back, his nose itches, he loses his grip and mortally wounds a poplar…….:) Actually, it’s using the power of the rod to flip a fly into a tight spot by drawing back on the rod while holding the leader in hand, letting go, and  letting the force of the recoiling rod push the fly out…. It’s only good for about 10 feet max., but it’s worth knowing if you fish small water…

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When you release the fly, the rod launches it as though it

were an arrow. <<< This technique, while useful, will eventually make you a fervent believer in barbless hooks! — Ken Clark Ft. Lupton, CO

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What is a bow and arrow cast? — Jack Botsford – Executive Director                      Tel (709) 722-3069 Newfoundland Alliance of Technical Industries           Fax (709) 722-3879 Box 41, Atlantic Place, 215 Water Street St. John’s, NF, CANADA  A1C 6C9

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Question:

I’m planning fishing Lewiston weekend of May 6. I imagine river will be too high, but how about Lewiston Lake, or maybe even Trinity Lake with a float tube? Any thoughts?

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You will need a float tube to get to where the fish are.  Try fishing right below the dam in the flyfishing only section. I’ve done pretty well down there. MDRPete

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