Question:

I love you man! Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Given normal variation in preferences and style no one need ever know what your flies, whatever you decide to call them, are supposed to look like.  In this swap, only one person, besides yourself, will ever know whether or not any two copies of your pattern bear a familial resemblance to one another and I give you my personal guarantee that he’ll never talk. Wolfgang who knows where his masseuse lives ….but I can be bought. <seg  Well Op, you have nothing to worry about when it comes to me judging your tying efforts. Given my ratty-assed flies, there is no way I’d have the cojones to rate yours or anyone elses flies. You’re safe my friend. Frank Five Thumbs Church

Response:

You’re not helpin’ matters Eugene!  Now I’m in tears and have flushed all my previous ties. Op  –headin’ to Wally’s shop to buy 41 decently tied flyz–

ya want me set aside 41 different flies <g op, i plan on being there saturday am to do some paperwork and such. why doncha swing by with your stuff and we’ll see if we can fix ‘em up good fer ya. i’ll be leaving about noonish to go pick marie up from her folks house…… i might be able to fish sunday…. –walt

Response:

….well, let me knock you outa that preen boy… you tie a better fly than rachel and she’ll eviscerate you worse than any deer you never killed and gutted… we’re counting on you. jeff (you other fellas might take note as well) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Op  –findin’ encouragement, and the courage to tie in every post–

Response:

Given normal variation in preferences and style no one need ever know what your flies, whatever you decide to call them, are supposed to look like.  In this swap, only one person, besides yourself, will ever know whether or not any two copies of your pattern bear a familial resemblance to one another and I give you my personal guarantee that he’ll never talk. Wolfgang who knows where his masseuse lives

….but I can be bought. <seg  Well Op, you have nothing to worry about when it comes to me judging your tying efforts. Given my ratty-assed flies, there is no way I’d have the cojones to rate yours or anyone elses flies. You’re safe my friend. Frank Five Thumbs Church

Response:

op, thursday eve…. 6-6:30…… tommy’s fly tying class starts.

Snippage of good advice… Thanks for the heads-up Wally, but I think I will have to wait for the next session of classes.  If I work long and hard enough, I believe that I will be able to tie some decent flyz.  Once I complete this task, maybe we can go fishin’ like reel men do? Op

Response:

in the for what it is worth department, for some time, my elk hair caddis’s, no matter what technique I used to tie the hair on with, would always slip and not "lie straight" on the hook. though i put a few in the box anyway,I would never use them. One day on the hiwassee, during a massive caddis hatch, I changed flies from the emerger to the ehc, wasn’t not paying attention and tied on one of my crooked hair flies. really didn’t notice it until my fly landed admist the real ones. muttered an expletive and started to bring it in when a fish took it. then another, and another and so on. later i tried the same tie on another stream and caugh fish with it. A friend theorized that the fly looked like a cripple and therefore easier feeding for the trout. the moral if you want one is to emphasize the old saying, pretty flies are sometimes tied to catch fishermen and not fish. hang in there bubba.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been paying, what seemed to be, outrageous prices for fake bugs! Once I finally settled on a pattern that I *thought* I could tie–tried numerous others first–I have a grand total of ten flyz tied:  three that I wouldn’t be ashamed to send off, two that I would send if push came to shove, and five that I wouldn’t give to my worst enemy

Response:

hmmm, that may be true but the opposite is also true….look at a group of flies that are more or less the same and you might say, hey those flies are not bad…but if you get the one which is on the crappy side of good, you might say these flies suck since you only see one crappy one and not the group. Eugene K.

sometimes, flies become more effective as they fall apart…why not tie them that way from the start…heehee Eugene K.

Response:

…..but if you get the one which is on the crappy side of good, you might say these flies suck since you only see one crappy one and not the group.

So remember, all of you:  only the one YOU got was crappy, dammit. JR (feeling less pressured about the whole business)

Response:

…….if you get the one which is on the crappy side of good, you might say these flies suck since you only see one crappy one and not the group.

look like? Wolfgang

Response:

So remember, all of you:  only the one YOU got was crappy, dammit. JR (feeling less pressured about the whole business)

OK, well maybe the one you and the one your buddy got were crappy, but the rest were fabulous, honest. Eugene K.

Response:

op, thursday eve…. 6-6:30…… tommy’s fly tying class starts. it runs for 6 weeks and is good…. tommy is a natural and can sure tie some flies. scenario: walt: damn, broke another herl. tommy: here, lemme show ya wally. waldo: ok tommy: see? waldo: yeah… way cool…. just 16 more tommy, just 16 more! –waldo, countin’ down the swap flies <g ps…. frank, could you please send me via e-mail your address so that i can get tomm…. err, my swap flies sent off to ya. pss: big dale, thankee!!!!!!! the yellahammas are beautiful, i’d like to send you some also, please e-mail addie….. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for the offer Wally, but if I come to the shop, I will have to take on a second and third job!  Somethin’ about flyfishin’ goodies that I can’t resist.  It’s a drug I tell ya. Op op, come on by the shop and we’ll fix what needs fixin’…. –walt I have been paying, what seemed to be, outrageous prices for fake bugs! Once I finally settled on a pattern that I *thought* I could tie–tried numerous others first–I have a grand total of ten flyz tied:  three that I wouldn’t be ashamed to send off, two that I would send if push came to shove, and five that I wouldn’t give to my worst enemy–no not you God, sorry. Unfortunately, the five I wouldn’t wish on Osama weren’t the first five that I tied.  I guess this means that I am not necessarily gettin’ any better, but may just be lucky every third or so tie.  I bought a tyin’ tape, and have numerous books on the subject, but my hands don’t seem to comprehend what I have seen and read.  The elk and deer hair don’t do like it is supposed to, according to A.K. Best, anyway.  Yeah, he stopped by for a good laugh, but left in tears.  My bad. I figure if I tie 5 flyz a night and 20 or 30 on the weekends, I will have tied around 250 flyz by the deadline.  Hopefully, I will have at least 41 decent flyz by that time, otherwise I promise to buy Fortenberry a Cabela’s "Stowaway" and never call him God again!  Fortunately, him, my word is better than my likelihood of goin’ postal. Op  –never again– — Tight Lines, –Walt Fly Fishing NC & more… http://www.ezflyfish.com http://www.wilsoncreekoutfitters.com

– Tight Lines, –Walt Fly Fishing NC & more… http://www.ezflyfish.com http://www.wilsoncreekoutfitters.com

Response:

You ain’t just whistlin’ Dixie!  However, I only want women like I fish–catch and release.  I think Rod Stewart said it best, "don’t be here in the mornin’, when I wake up." Or somethin’ to that affect.

And just how long have you had this problem with fly-tying women who won’t go away? Poor baby.  ;^P Sandy — "…the sport and game of angling is the true means and cause that brings a man into a merry spirit, which…makes a flowering age and a long one." ~~ Dame Juliana Berners 1496

Response:

And just how long have you had this problem with fly-tying women who won’t go away? Poor baby.  ;^P Sandy —

Never had a problem of women shunnin’ me Sandy, fly-tiers or not.  I ain’t the most compromisin’ sort-o-fella, so I tend to do poorly in long term relations.  I figure my best bet is to meet a nice inflatable doll, and carry on a passionate but brief affair.  Ya know any good inflatable models? Op  –asexual in Lenoir–

Response:

It’s not the variation in each fly I worry about Wolfie.  It’s the look of any particular fly.  While I’m not able to tie a magnificent specimen, of any sort, I do know a beautifully tied fly when I see one and I suspect that others do as well. My flyz tend to be over-threaded, over-feathered, over-furred, well just plain over-all heavily tied.  I suspect that I try to tie them so that they won’t come apart, but they just end up fat and funny lookin’.  Given time, I believe that I will work this out.  I have already begun to pare down on the hackles and fur a bit.  Now I just need to work on wrappin’ each piece fewer times. I’ll get through this, yet, with a little help from my friends. Op  –takin’ the day off to buy new glasses, (maybe this will help?)–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …..I’m tryin’ to tie flyz worthy of this most prestigious swap….. Given normal variation in preferences and style no one need ever know what your flies, whatever you decide to call them, are supposed to look like.  In this swap, only one person, besides yourself, will ever know whether or not any two copies of your pattern bear a familial resemblance to one another and I give you my personal guarantee that he’ll never talk. Wolfgang who knows where his masseuse lives

Response:

You’re not helpin’ matters Eugene!  Now I’m in tears and have flushed all my previous ties. Op  –headin’ to Wally’s shop to buy 41 decently tied flyz– – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In this swap, only one person, besides yourself, will ever know whether or not any two copies of your pattern bear a familial resemblance to one another and I give you my personal guarantee that he’ll never talk. Wolfgang who knows where his masseuse lives hmmm, that may be true but the opposite is also true….look at a group of flies that are more or less the same and you might say, hey those flies are not bad…but if you get the one which is on the crappy side of good, you might say these flies suck since you only see one crappy one and not the group. Eugene K.

Response:

You’re right Wayne.  I have yet to tie a fly that didn’t catch at least one trout, even my infamous "Golden Fuzzy Butt."  Yet, I can’t help but want to tie a decent lookin’ presentation for youz guyz.  I’ll try not to belabor the matter any longer. Op  –findin’ encouragement, and the courage to tie in every post–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – in the for what it is worth department, for some time, my elk hair caddis’s, no matter what technique I used to tie the hair on with, would always slip and not "lie straight" on the hook. though i put a few in the box anyway,I would never use them. One day on the hiwassee, during a massive caddis hatch, I changed flies from the emerger to the ehc, wasn’t not paying attention and tied on one of my crooked hair flies. really didn’t notice it until my fly landed admist the real ones. muttered an expletive and started to bring it in when a fish took it. then another, and another and so on. later i tried the same tie on another stream and caugh fish with it. A friend theorized that the fly looked like a cripple and therefore easier feeding for the trout. the moral if you want one is to emphasize the old saying, pretty flies are sometimes tied to catch fishermen and not fish. hang in there bubba. I have been paying, what seemed to be, outrageous prices for fake bugs! Once I finally settled on a pattern that I *thought* I could tie–tried numerous others first–I have a grand total of ten flyz tied:  three that I wouldn’t be ashamed to send off, two that I would send if push came to shove, and five that I wouldn’t give to my worst enemy

Response:

Thanks for the offer Wally, but if I come to the shop, I will have to take on a second and third job!  Somethin’ about flyfishin’ goodies that I can’t resist.  It’s a drug I tell ya. Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – op, come on by the shop and we’ll fix what needs fixin’…. –walt I have been paying, what seemed to be, outrageous prices for fake bugs! Once I finally settled on a pattern that I *thought* I could tie–tried numerous others first–I have a grand total of ten flyz tied:  three that I wouldn’t be ashamed to send off, two that I would send if push came to shove, and five that I wouldn’t give to my worst enemy–no not you God, sorry. Unfortunately, the five I wouldn’t wish on Osama weren’t the first five that I tied.  I guess this means that I am not necessarily gettin’ any better, but may just be lucky every third or so tie.  I bought a tyin’ tape, and have numerous books on the subject, but my hands don’t seem to comprehend what I have seen and read.  The elk and deer hair don’t do like it is supposed to, according to A.K. Best, anyway.  Yeah, he stopped by for a good laugh, but left in tears.  My bad. I figure if I tie 5 flyz a night and 20 or 30 on the weekends, I will have tied around 250 flyz by the deadline.  Hopefully, I will have at least 41 decent flyz by that time, otherwise I promise to buy Fortenberry a Cabela’s "Stowaway" and never call him God again!  Fortunately, him, my word is better than my likelihood of goin’ postal. Op  –never again– — Tight Lines, –Walt Fly Fishing NC & more… http://www.ezflyfish.com http://www.wilsoncreekoutfitters.com

Response:

…..I’m tryin’ to tie flyz worthy of this most prestigious swap…..

Given normal variation in preferences and style no one need ever know what your flies, whatever you decide to call them, are supposed to look like.  In this swap, only one person, besides yourself, will ever know whether or not any two copies of your pattern bear a familial resemblance to one another and I give you my personal guarantee that he’ll never talk. Wolfgang who knows where his masseuse lives

Response:

In this swap, only one person, besides yourself, will ever know whether or not any two copies of your pattern bear a familial resemblance to one another and I give you my personal guarantee that he’ll never talk. Wolfgang who knows where his masseuse lives

hmmm, that may be true but the opposite is also true….look at a group of flies that are more or less the same and you might say, hey those flies are not bad…but if you get the one which is on the crappy side of good, you might say these flies suck since you only see one crappy one and not the group. Eugene K.

Response:

You ain’t just whistlin’ Dixie!  However, I only want women like I fish–catch and release.  I think Rod Stewart said it best, "don’t be here in the mornin’, when I wake up." Or somethin’ to that affect. Good luck with you flyz, I know I will appreciate them! Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …here’s a hint op…women.  …you need to find you a couple, be nice to em, tell em about the "art" of flytying, how you just know they are artistic souls, etc…  get my drift?  course you’re way ahead of us, er…rachel… we have completed 2 mutants, but seem to be increasing speed of the ties…i’m sure quality will creep in a few times before we’re (she’s) finished…. jeff (mutant master) I have been paying, what seemed to be, outrageous prices for fake bugs! Once I finally settled on a pattern that I *thought* I could tie–tried numerous others first–I have a grand total of ten flyz tied:  three that I wouldn’t be ashamed to send off, two that I would send if push came to shove, and five that I wouldn’t give to my worst enemy–no not you God, sorry. Unfortunately, the five I wouldn’t wish on Osama weren’t the first five that I tied.  I guess this means that I am not necessarily gettin’ any better, but may just be lucky every third or so tie.  I bought a tyin’ tape, and have numerous books on the subject, but my hands don’t seem to comprehend what I have seen and read.  The elk and deer hair don’t do like it is supposed to, according to A.K. Best, anyway.  Yeah, he stopped by for a good laugh, but left in tears.  My bad. I figure if I tie 5 flyz a night and 20 or 30 on the weekends, I will have tied around 250 flyz by the deadline.  Hopefully, I will have at least 41 decent flyz by that time, otherwise I promise to buy Fortenberry a Cabela’s "Stowaway" and never call him God again!  Fortunately, him, my word is better than my likelihood of goin’ postal. Op  –never again–

Response:

I have been paying, what seemed to be, outrageous prices for fake bugs! Once I finally settled on a pattern that I *thought* I could tie–tried numerous others first–I have a grand total of ten flyz tied:  three that I wouldn’t be ashamed to send off, two that I would send if push came to shove, and five that I wouldn’t give to my worst enemy–no not you God, sorry. Unfortunately, the five I wouldn’t wish on Osama weren’t the first five that I tied.  I guess this means that I am not necessarily gettin’ any better, but may just be lucky every third or so tie.  I bought a tyin’ tape, and have numerous books on the subject, but my hands don’t seem to comprehend what I have seen and read.  The elk and deer hair don’t do like it is supposed to, according to A.K. Best, anyway.  Yeah, he stopped by for a good laugh, but left in tears.  My bad. I figure if I tie 5 flyz a night and 20 or 30 on the weekends, I will have tied around 250 flyz by the deadline.  Hopefully, I will have at least 41 decent flyz by that time, otherwise I promise to buy Fortenberry a Cabela’s "Stowaway" and never call him God again!  Fortunately, him, my word is better than my likelihood of goin’ postal. Op  –never again–

Response:

op, come on by the shop and we’ll fix what needs fixin’…. –walt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been paying, what seemed to be, outrageous prices for fake bugs! Once I finally settled on a pattern that I *thought* I could tie–tried numerous others first–I have a grand total of ten flyz tied:  three that I wouldn’t be ashamed to send off, two that I would send if push came to shove, and five that I wouldn’t give to my worst enemy–no not you God, sorry. Unfortunately, the five I wouldn’t wish on Osama weren’t the first five that I tied.  I guess this means that I am not necessarily gettin’ any better, but may just be lucky every third or so tie.  I bought a tyin’ tape, and have numerous books on the subject, but my hands don’t seem to comprehend what I have seen and read.  The elk and deer hair don’t do like it is supposed to, according to A.K. Best, anyway.  Yeah, he stopped by for a good laugh, but left in tears.  My bad. I figure if I tie 5 flyz a night and 20 or 30 on the weekends, I will have tied around 250 flyz by the deadline.  Hopefully, I will have at least 41 decent flyz by that time, otherwise I promise to buy Fortenberry a Cabela’s "Stowaway" and never call him God again!  Fortunately, him, my word is better than my likelihood of goin’ postal. Op  –never again–

– Tight Lines, –Walt Fly Fishing NC & more… http://www.ezflyfish.com http://www.wilsoncreekoutfitters.com

Response:

…here’s a hint op…women.  …you need to find you a couple, be nice to em, tell em about the "art" of flytying, how you just know they are artistic souls, etc…  get my drift?  course you’re way ahead of us, er…rachel… we have completed 2 mutants, but seem to be increasing speed of the ties…i’m sure quality will creep in a few times before we’re (she’s) finished…. jeff (mutant master) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been paying, what seemed to be, outrageous prices for fake bugs! Once I finally settled on a pattern that I *thought* I could tie–tried numerous others first–I have a grand total of ten flyz tied:  three that I wouldn’t be ashamed to send off, two that I would send if push came to shove, and five that I wouldn’t give to my worst enemy–no not you God, sorry. Unfortunately, the five I wouldn’t wish on Osama weren’t the first five that I tied.  I guess this means that I am not necessarily gettin’ any better, but may just be lucky every third or so tie.  I bought a tyin’ tape, and have numerous books on the subject, but my hands don’t seem to comprehend what I have seen and read.  The elk and deer hair don’t do like it is supposed to, according to A.K. Best, anyway.  Yeah, he stopped by for a good laugh, but left in tears.  My bad. I figure if I tie 5 flyz a night and 20 or 30 on the weekends, I will have tied around 250 flyz by the deadline.  Hopefully, I will have at least 41 decent flyz by that time, otherwise I promise to buy Fortenberry a Cabela’s "Stowaway" and never call him God again!  Fortunately, him, my word is better than my likelihood of goin’ postal. Op  –never again–

Response:

I have been paying, what seemed to be, outrageous prices for fake bugs! Once I finally settled on a pattern that I *thought* I could tie–tried numerous others first–I have a grand total of ten flyz tied:  three that I wouldn’t be ashamed to send off, two that I would send if push came to shove, and five that I wouldn’t give to my worst enemy–no not you God, sorry.

If the trout down your way are like the ones up here in the Great White North, they will gobble down your five worst as good as, if not better than, the ones that appeal to you. G.Cleveland

Response:

Thanks for your encouragement George, but I ain’t tryin to impress the trout at this point, I’m tryin’ to tie flyz worthy of this most prestigious swap. I know there are goin’ to be some expert fly tiers represented in this affair, and I don’t want to send out trash flyz. I tied a nymph pattern a couple a years back–Opie’s Ugly– and it catches trout with the best of them, but I was too ashamed of the looks of it to pass it on to others.  Surprisingly, I purchased a book at Uncle Wally’s shop last Sat. and lo and behold I found a fly that looked so much like my Ugly that one would think I had copied the pattern without actually using the same materials, of course.  The pattern is the Hatching Caddis, tied by David Wotten, and pictured in "Flys For Trout" by Dick Stewart and Farrow Allen. I will continue to work on my skills/lack of skill, and send out the best that I can.  I’m glad I decided to join this swap, as I have been wanting to force myself to tie for some time, but I’m just not disciplined enough to work at it with out some kind of pressure exerted upon myself.  Having spent a small fortune–to a lowly electrician–on materials and tools, I now think I can find the incentive to actually tie more often.  If I am successful in my endeavor to persever, Wally will lose business at one end and gain on the other end. Thanks again! Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been paying, what seemed to be, outrageous prices for fake bugs! Once I finally settled on a pattern that I *thought* I could tie–tried numerous others first–I have a grand total of ten flyz tied:  three that I wouldn’t be ashamed to send off, two that I would send if push came to shove, and five that I wouldn’t give to my worst enemy–no not you God, sorry. If the trout down your way are like the ones up here in the Great White North, they will gobble down your five worst as good as, if not better than, the ones that appeal to you. G.Cleveland

Response:

Question:

i’m going to win this years entry for , fruit cake of the year , *BUT* she filled out my disability form , looks like i’ll have all of next year off . Are you ok with that? I always got the impression that you enjoyed your work and that it helped you.

it doesn’t mean i can’t work , i just means i don’t have to .

Response:

i’m going to win this years entry for , fruit cake of the year , *BUT* she filled out my disability form , looks like i’ll have all of next year off .

Are you ok with that? I always got the impression that you enjoyed your work and that it helped you.

Response:

i’m going to win this years entry for , fruit cake of the year , *BUT* she filled out my disability form , looks like i’ll have all of next year off .

Response:

x-no-archive: yes i’m going to win this years entry for , fruit cake of the year , *BUT* she filled out my disability form , looks like i’ll have all of next year off . Are you serious? What did she say about the pills?

yes i’m seroius , she gave me the busperone or whatever it’s called , and i was too afraid to ask for the lorazapam , i’ll wait and trick my physician into those .

Response:

why would that be unfortunate for me ? besides , you’ve only got shakey nuts . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hm, i just checked and unfortunately for you, I also have nuts i’ve already got you beat , i’ve got nuts . ive got 6 months off, and i think im in contention for fruitcake of the year too lets have a playoff i’m going to win this years entry for , fruit cake of the year , *BUT* she filled out my disability form , looks like i’ll have all of next year off .

Response:

Hm, i just checked and unfortunately for you, I also have nuts

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i’ve already got you beat , i’ve got nuts . ive got 6 months off, and i think im in contention for fruitcake of the year too lets have a playoff i’m going to win this years entry for , fruit cake of the year , *BUT* she filled out my disability form , looks like i’ll have all of next year off .

Response:

i’ve already got you beat , i’ve got nuts . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ive got 6 months off, and i think im in contention for fruitcake of the year too lets have a playoff i’m going to win this years entry for , fruit cake of the year , *BUT* she filled out my disability form , looks like i’ll have all of next year off .

Response:

ive got 6 months off, and i think im in contention for fruitcake of the year too lets have a playoff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i’m going to win this years entry for , fruit cake of the year , *BUT* she filled out my disability form , looks like i’ll have all of next year off .

Response:

it doesn’t mean i can’t work , i just means i don’t have to . I see, so what will you do? I was on buspar at one point a few years ago. Do you find it helps?

i’ll work when i feel like it , go back to college for some more addiction studies , part time . get alot of neglected work done around the ponderosa , by then it should be summer , and i’ll spend my days , lasily fly fishing down on the sakunka river , i’ll show you a picture of the river if you like .

Response:

it doesn’t mean i can’t work , i just means i don’t have to .

I see, so what will you do? I was on buspar at one point a few years ago. Do you find it helps?

Response:

Question:

I usually go for the "bottle of beer" fly, and hope and pray the water clears up … cheers, edwin

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – which fly would you recommend straight after a heavy downpour of rain with the river still running brown for salmon in Scotland

Response:

Oh I would not hesitate to use steelhead flies for Atlantic salmon fishing, that was not what I meant.  I meant using things like Griffiths Gnats, beetles or ants or similar things, is a complete waste of time for Atlantic salmon on spawning runs, which is the only time they are fished for in Scotland.  Fishing for immature fish, ( parr etc ), which would take "naturals",  is not done at all. Worms are invariably more successful in any case.  A large bunch of lobworms on a large hook will generally take far more salmon than any fly, especially under flood conditions, when the river is high and brown, and even when low and clear for that matter.  In many places worming is allowed under certain ( usually flood ) conditions. Fly-fishing is not always the most successful method for any given fish, or set of conditions, in fact, barring salmonids generally, it rarely is. TL MC — "If you have tried everything you know, and nothing works, then perhaps it is time to accept that you don

Question:

Good post snipped. I’m definitely no streamer expert but many writers have commented that the eyes on a streamer are a trigger for the fish. Gary LaFontaine even ties a streamer with the eyes at the rear of the fly (near the hook bend) to help eliminate all the missed strikes. Willi

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good post snipped. I’m definitely no streamer expert but many writers have commented that the eyes on a streamer are a trigger for the fish. Gary LaFontaine even ties a streamer with the eyes at the rear of the fly (near the hook bend) to help eliminate all the missed strikes. Willi

That’s the reason for the Sedge Hook Perch.  Instead of moving the eyes back, I’m moving the hook point forward. Peter

Response:

The first Sedge Hook Perch is on ABPF.  Not a great first effort and I wasn’t able to get any olive cafltail – used bucktail instead so the profile is not what I hoped, but you can get the idea.  Vertical bars are done with black magic marker. Peter

Response:

<< There are some designs that put the hook much closer to the head of the streamer. Gartside does it with his marabou soft hackles, others as well use shorter shank hooks with streamer materials extending far past bend. This could be done, I suppose, as long as the materials don’t foul around the gape of hook. <<  Tom Littleton This is one of the virtues of the Lefty’s Deceiver and Kreh and Clouser’s Half & Half.  Lefty Kreh also writes that big fish are head hunters. GKT

Response:

<< There are some designs that put the hook much closer to the head of the streamer. Gartside does it with his marabou soft hackles, others as well use shorter shank hooks with streamer materials extending far past bend. This could be done, I suppose, as long as the materials don’t foul around the gape of hook. <<  Tom Littleton This is one of the virtues of the Lefty’s Deceiver and Kreh and Clouser’s Half & Half.  Lefty Kreh also writes that big fish are head hunters. GKT

Saltwater patterns have used this approach for years as the fish are known headhunters, but apart from clousers, there aren’t many freshwater versions.  Though I didn’t start out the Sedge Hook Perch with a particular saltwater fly in mind, it certainly did end up resembling one.   Since I can’t make much use of it till next year, if anybody would like to try a couple, email me your snail mail and I’ll send them off. In return, you have to post your results. Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Peter, That is a good looking fly you posted on ABPF. I wish more people would post flies on ABPF. Reading a description of a fly just doesn’t cut it. I think the streamer tied on a short shanked hook has a better "look" and it probably would have better action. What do you use for eyes? Willi

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: That is a good looking fly you posted on ABPF. I wish more people would : post flies on ABPF. Reading a description of a fly just doesn’t cut it. Many, maybe even most, of us don’t get ABPF… JonCook.

Here ya go Jon. http://www.ezflyfish.com/perstreamfly.html Peter has graciously allowed for this information to be posted at ez. Thanks Peter…. –Walt — Walter G. Winter Ezflyfish.com:  http://www.ezflyfish.com Blue Ridge Book Gallery: http://users.boone.net/wgw/brbg.html

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Peter, That is a good looking fly you posted on ABPF. I wish more people would post flies on ABPF. Reading a description of a fly just doesn’t cut it. I think the streamer tied on a short shanked hook has a better "look" and it probably would have better action. What do you use for eyes? Willi

They’re on a peel and stick sheet.  I cover them with flex cement afterward or they’d just drop off. Peter

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: That is a good looking fly you posted on ABPF. I wish more people would : post flies on ABPF. Reading a description of a fly just doesn’t cut it. Many, maybe even most, of us don’t get ABPF…

So ask your university sysop to add it. ‘Tain’t no big thang… /daytripper

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Many, maybe even most, of us don’t get ABPF… So ask your university sysop to add it. ‘Tain’t no big thang…

Spoken like a man who’s never been a university sysop. — Ken Fortenberry- never got ABPF

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Many, maybe even most, of us don’t get ABPF… So ask your university sysop to add it. ‘Tain’t no big thang… Spoken like a man who’s never been a university sysop.

Well, true, I was never a sysop in college, and my college days preceded Usenet anyway (360/20 programmer "back in the days" when real computers ran on air)… But the "no big thang" was referring to the *asking*. As we both know the actual *doing* is trivial…even for a university sysop. /daytripper (Even those that call central Illinois "Home" ;^)

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Well, true, I was never a sysop in college, and my college days preceded Usenet anyway (360/20 programmer "back in the days" when real computers ran on air)…

Ah yes, those were the days. We had one of the few 360/44’s, kind of a RISC precursor I suppose, without the complete instruction set so math operations were faster. We had a 1620 prior to that and a ‘hands on’ 1130 w/8K RAM<g. — Charlie…

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http://www.ezflyfish.com/perstreamfly.html

Do most of you who post pics of flies use digital cameras?  If so, do they have built-in macros or did you have to do something else to get close-up shots? Mu

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http://www.ezflyfish.com/perstreamfly.html Do most of you who post pics of flies use digital cameras?  If so, do they have built-in macros or did you have to do something else to get close-up shots?

"long"? I use an Oly C2020Z which has built-in macro capability. However, I usually top the lens off with a macro multiplier (I have a 2X and a 4X) to really fill the frame and make the most of the CCD (rather than crop down the shot and lose pixels). I think I can speak for "Vern" and Paul G wrt your questions: they both shoot using C2020Z’s , but I’m pretty sure they haven’t bought the macro multipliers yet. My matched brace of Nikkormats, an F5, and a Minolta (all SLRs) are all feeling very lonely and neglected these days… /daytripper ("Totally Digital"  ;^)

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http://www.ezflyfish.com/perstreamfly.html Do most of you who post pics of flies use digital cameras?  If so, do they have built-in macros or did you have to do something else to get close-up shots? Mu

I just stick ‘em in my scanner, squish the buggers then crop ‘em. Looks like hell but people know they’re flies. Peter the always helpful

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Olympus 2020, does macros just fine without any add on’s Vern – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.ezflyfish.com/perstreamfly.html Do most of you who post pics of flies use digital cameras?  If so, do they have built-in macros or did you have to do something else to get close-up shots? Mu

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http://www.ezflyfish.com/perstreamfly.html Do most of you who post pics of flies use digital cameras?  If so, do they have built-in macros or did you have to do something else to get close-up shots? Mu

Mu, while I haven’t taken any photos of flies yet, I have taken a ton of pics of small desert flowers.   Some of them will fit on a dime with a lot  room left over.  The decision to use macro is a personal one depending on how you want the subject to look.  I can get the lens to within about 1/4 inch without macro.  I advise a tripod for macro and telephoto.   Camera?  Sony Mavica FD-91.  Macro ability plus a bunch more including interchangable lenses and filters. http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonyfd91/  Lemme know and I can send some examples. — All fishermen are liars ‘cept you n me, and I’m starting to have doubts about you! www.fishticker.com

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My matched brace of Nikkormats,

        tripper:  what flavor nikkormat do you have?  are you interested in getting shut of one of them? wayno the digital anti-christ

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The mystery has finally been solved – and on the last day of the season.  Anyway  . .

Great report snipped for brevity. Peter, Very interesting info. Some observations from fishing for Lake Trout and Landlocks in a stillwater that mesh with your obsrvations: About thirty five years ago, I spent some time fishing for Lakers and Landlocks in the local reservoir. The hot method at the time was still or drift fishing with large shiners for bait. the predominant forage fish were Smelt and Yellow Perch. I had a number of hits, but very few hookups the first few times out, and often, when I got a hit, the bait would still be on the hook, dazed but alive. I mentioned this to a local guy who had been catching a lot of fish, and he told me it was very important not to set the hook at the strike, but to wait until the fish began to run with the bait. He said that Lakers and Landlocks often made a pass  and struck a baitfish, and then turned and picked it up. Once I started following his advice I began taking Lakers in the four to six pound range, and Landlocks in the two to four pound range regularly. Seems to be quite similar to your experience with the Browns. Funny thing is that I have also caught Lakers and Landlocks using streamers in the river that drains the reservoir, (they escape over the spillway in high water), and they don’t exhibit the same behavior there. They just grab the streamer and turn. Go figure.{:-) George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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The mystery has finally been solved – and on the last day of the season.  Anyway  . . Last week I post up some stuff about streamer fishing for browns on the Grand and having something like 50 hits and only landing about half-a-dozen.  I had been using a green ghost which is a bit perch-like and perch have been getting washed through the dam into the river during high water periods.  So I tied up two perch flies, one based on a 1/0 Rangley hook (I posted the recipe here and on ROFFT and the image on ABPF), the other on a 4X #6 Diiachi.  The 1/0 used float foam to give it some buoyancy while the other had a small strip of lead added. To try and bring some order to the process, I decided to track all happenings over one hour starting at 2:30 pm.  I had decided to use the #6 for half an hour and then the 1/0 but events overtook that plan. At the access point, a small island divides the channel creating a smallish pool and seam on the south side and a chute emptying into a larger, slower pool on the north side.  Everyone tromps through the southside pool so I never expect much there; one fish at best.  Right at the water’s edge, I begin fishing the #6, casting directly across current and stripping back in a "U".  Within ten minutes I have six hits and three landed – but here’s where the interesting shit happens. One fish has taken the #6 perch directly from the rear and hooked up mid lower jaw.  The other two were foul hooked in the face above the upper jaw.  The direction of the hookup indicates that they turned on the fly and hit it broadside while facing downstream.  They were hooked up on the far side of their face, indicating that they had aimed for the head of the fly.  It all made sense.  Perch are a spiny rayed fish so trout must have ingrained behaviour to aim for the head so that they can swallow head first and smooth down the dorsal spines. This explains why I had so many misses and lost fish last week. Here’s all the poop: Recorded results for one hour. Presentation was directly across stream with a "U" retrieve and a 3" to 4" strip.  (a slower presentation than last week – 12" strip) Total casts – 100 to 120 Total hits – 21 Total hooked – 12 Total landed – 9 Total lost -3 Total foul hooked – 5 (4 in the face and 1 behind the head) Average size of fish – 9" Results by fly:         # 6  Perch – 6 hits, 3 hooked, 3 landed, 2 foul hooked         1/0 Perch – 5 hits, 0 hooked, 0 landed, 0 foul hooked         #6 g. ghost – 10 hits, 9 hooked, 6 landed, 3 foul hooked In deeper, faster water, 2 browns took the fly broadside while facing downstream and one took from the rear.  In shallower, slower water 5 of the 6 browns landed took the fly broadside facing upstream (the 6th faced down.)   After I brought my third fish to hand, I dropped it and grabbed the tippet.  The knot parted and away swam my only #6 perch.  I tied on the 1/0 and tried my luck in the slower northside pool but 5 hits only.  Crossing back to the south side of the island, I began working the tailout down about 200 yards to the end of Cedar Run with what was left of my Green Ghost.  After the end of the hour, I picked up one more small one and then hooked and landed a nice 15" brown. Unfortunately, it was also fouled; this time under the jaw.  After the 15" fish, I changed presentation to a classsic quartering downstream approach and did not get a single hit.   After changing back, I landed another small one.  After a meal break, I picked up one 16" brown on a joe’s smelt.  Once I got back on the water I tried a black nosed dace (one of Charlie’s) and a joe’s smelt to see if the browns would hit them differently.  These being representations of soft rayed fish and having obvious strike zones with their red tails, I was curious if they performed better,  Total was 6 hits, 4 hookups, 1 landed (the 16" one.)  Not really enough action to draw any conclusions. Results on first misses: – Mindful of Mike’s advice, I tried to remember to drop in some slack after a miss.  I had no results on the 1/0 despite one solid hit from a larger fish.  On the green ghost, I had one persistant small guy whack it three times in succession without a hookup and missed another small one on the second hit.  The 16" was classic.  He hit and missed, I dropped the smelt.  he did nothing, then I made one strip and he nailed it directly from the rear.  I hooked him up mid lower jaw. There’s no doubt in my mind that these browns were headhunting the perch flies.  From now on, I’ll be tying my perch flies on short shanked, heavy wire hooks (like a Mustad 3906B) or on sedge hooks that have a small, straight shank.  Too bad I won’t get to try them on the browns to the end of April 2001.  I’ll tie some up tomorrow afternoon and post a binary on ABPF. Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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addendum: Some conclusion now that I’ve had some more time to digest the results and read other peoples’ comments. The method of attack for a brown is variable and they choose their method based on prey species and relative size (them vs. the prey.) and other variables like temperature, water clarity, etc. Some conculsions: When I fish my mini streamers, I have a 40% to 50% hookup rate of which I probably land 4 out of 5.  Foul hookups are very rare and the majority of hookups are mid lower jaw with a few mid upper jaw. Corner of jaw hookups are rare.  This indicates that the browns are tail chasing the streamer and taking it on the first hit.  The missed strikes can be attributed to short takes on the fast moving, tiny streamer. A few weeks back, I foul hooked another 15" brown under the jaw when using a #4 streamer.  The pattern seems to be – small fish take from below, probably looking for a gill shot, whil the larger fish seem to take from slightly above, probably turning into the prey at the head. Not all fish are looking for a disabling shot, in the Attack-Maime-Return mode as some seem to have hookups that appear to come from an attempt to seize the prey.  If they are in the mood to strike and drop, then it’s important to have a spongy, neutral buoyant fly with a small hook to avoid jaw to steel contact.  The Sedge Hook Perch should fit this bill.  The white calftail belly and red gill slash will form a target for the smaller fish. The large head and eyes work for the larger ones.  Since the sedge hook is small and light, and the bulk of the fly is made up of semi-buoyant hair, it should react well when tension is released after a strike.   Liberal use of flex cement over the front of the fly will also aid buoyancy and provide a spongy feel to the attacking fish.  Once released, the fly should drift more naturally than a weighted or big hook fly.  As most of the profile of the fly is simply hair, then it should also move more naturally than a stiff, long shanked fly. Since my season is now closed, maybe somebody else could give this fly a shot. (off to buy some vino for SWMBO and some olive calftail so I can complete the prototype.) Peter Peter

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -What a great discussion….and some people wonder why we come here! This whole streamer thing has been puzzling me for years. Getting hits versus hookups,etc. There have been some great observations in this discussion. My feeble brain is spinning. perhaps it would be worthwhile tying up some "reversed" streamers, That is to say, streamers with the heads at the bend of the hook. How would such a streamer be fished such that the drift would look right? Angle of pull from rod would seem to give it a tailward oriented motion. There are some designs that put the hook much closer to the head of the streamer. Gartside does it with his marabou soft hackles, others as well use shorter shank hooks with streamer materials extending far past bend. This could be done, I suppose, as long as the materials don’t foul around the gape of hook. I may be trying a few ideas out as we head into the fall season here in PA and post if any intelligent thought or observation arise. Thanks again for the discussion!                            Tom Littleton

Tom Here’s the perch fly I’m planning for next year.  It can be done in any colours for any bait fish – I bet a baby brown would be perfect for PA. Sedge Hook Perch Hook – Kamasan # 8 Sedge or similar Thread – 3/0 Olive Uni-thread Tinsel – gold Flashaboo Belly – white calftail Throat – red Uni-floss Underwing – chartreuse bucktail Wing – Olive calftail Overwing – three strands of thick peacock herl Eyes – stick-on black on gold Tying instructions: All of the material will be tied on the short, straight section of the sedge hook shank.  Tie on a bed of thread.  Do not worry about building up too much bulk as we want a big head.  Tie in three strands of flashaboo doubled and trimmed to length.  Wrap thread over flashaboo to the end of the shank.  Invert hook and tie in the white calftail as a belly.  I’m using calftail instead of bucktail as it’s bulkier and stiffer, producing the deep perch profile.  Then wrap in the red floss at the rear of the shank over the calftail to a width of about 1/8".  This represents a gill flare on a frightened fish.  Then in turn, wrap in the bucktail close to the eye and the length of the shank, followed by the olive calftail then the herl.  Build up the head with thread the full length of the shank and stick on the eyes. Leave about 1/16" of the red floss showing at the back.  Then coat liberally with head cement at least to 1/8" beyond the head. Later on today when I get finished of the chores, (SWMBO is a slave driver)  I’ll tie up one and post it to ABPF. Peter

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What a great discussion….and some people wonder why we come here! This whole streamer thing has been puzzling me for years. Getting hits versus hookups,etc. There have been some great observations in this discussion. My feeble brain is spinning. perhaps it would be worthwhile tying up some "reversed" streamers, That is to say, streamers with the heads at the bend of the hook.

How would such a streamer be fished such that the drift would look right? Angle of pull from rod would seem to give it a tailward oriented motion. There are some designs that put the hook much closer to the head of the streamer. Gartside does it with his marabou soft hackles, others as well use shorter shank hooks with streamer materials extending far past bend. This could be done, I suppose, as long as the materials don’t foul around the gape of hook. I may be trying a few ideas out as we head into the fall season here in PA and post if any intelligent thought or observation arise. Thanks again for the discussion!                             Tom Littleton

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Great report. Thanks for the info.  Seems it could be a combination of things. Trout taking spiny rayed fish head first, and the "attack maim and wait, and then hit again" behaviour we already discussed. Bullheads are also "spiny rayed", and I already explained the behaviour of trout, in my experience,  in this case.   I assume that my original idea was correct, and the trout attack the fish to damage it, and then come back to take the fish head first,  Seems very reasonable. Just a daft idea, but perhaps it would be worthwhile tying up some "reversed" streamers, That is to say, streamers with the heads at the bend of the hook. This practice is common with lightweight pirks, they are fished "the wrong way round", the fish take on the drop, as the pirk is apparently diving head first for the bottom. I have no idea how this might sensibly be realised, but I will have a think about it. My running water season is finished for this year, so I will not have a chance to try any of this for a while, But very interesting, and food for thought. TL MC — "If you have tried everything you know, and nothing works, then perhaps it is time to accept that you don

Question:

I am looking to move to Bend and would love to hear about rivers and boatin in the area…John

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John, There are a couple of good oregon books: Soggy Sneakers and Oregon River Tours. Bend is a pretty place, lots of great fly fishing nearby (my fav. hobby). As far as boating rivers: The Deschutes river is nearby, it actually flows through bend (the upper section), but the lower section is the one most often boated.  It is probably the most popular rafting river in oregon.  The river has 5 or 6 class IV rapids and a couple of falls that are pretty much unrunable (unless you’re one of those crazy guys I see on tv).  The river also has a myriad of class 1 through 3 rapids.  The floatable section is close to 90 miles long.  However it is conviently broken by access points into two three day floats, with a couple of one day floats possible as well. The river gets very heavy traffic however.  In the middle of july, expect to count up to two dozen rafts in each direction.  Midweek brings much smaller crowds.  The Rangers have done a really good job discouraging the drunken Frat House parties, thus everyone is pretty pleasant. You also have access (2 or three hour drive) to the Rogue River.  It’s a scenic river with limited entry in the summer.  It is amazing! Since I raft and driftboat, I don’t have experience with smaller boats in Oregon. However, I think that other rivers close to bend may well accomodated kayaks. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking to move to Bend and would love to hear about rivers and boatin in the area…John

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Question:

Yeah right… somebody’s in my way, so kill him. Land of the free, hey?

Well to be serious for a moment, I do not carry a handgun. I do, however, carry a size 6 weighted wooly bugger and I would feel no remorse whatsoever if I ripped some GDA’s nose off with it. I have not done this to date, but not for lack of trying. You all Europeans can become one with universe, hum mantras and tsk, tsk at the uncivilized North Americans if you wish, but <assume John Wayne accent sometimes a man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do. — Ken Fortenberry

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 Hollow points tend not to pass through and kill an innocent bystander. Especially if you are using subsonic rounds. —  Don Thompson  Zoomie(BushBug)  ACA#3460  TLCB#335  Any Time, Any Place  Pull the chocks, lets get this kite in the air.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I try to hold my temper and sense of proportion in check. But necessary or overkill?

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You have no idea how impressive a size 6/0 pikestreamer can be when adequately stripped.. Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm <ad infinitum Herman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah right… somebody’s in my way, so kill him. Land of the free, hey? Well to be serious for a moment, I do not carry a handgun. I do, however, carry a size 6 weighted wooly bugger and I would feel no remorse whatsoever if I ripped some GDA’s nose off with it. I have not done this to date, but not for lack of trying. You all Europeans can become one with universe, hum mantras and tsk, tsk at the uncivilized North Americans if you wish, but <assume John Wayne accent sometimes a man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do. — Ken Fortenberry

– Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

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It was not malicious.  I must admit that I prefer to know the correct names of the people with whom I am communicating, and see no particularly good reasons for aliases here normally .  But it is like many things, purely a matter of personal choice. I never for a moment thought it was malicious.  As for the name..I’ve been using it for about 7 years now and use it for everything online. Just what I started with  so it’s a habit.

Using an alias online is an excellent idea that I recommend to everyone. I’m speaking from a truly harrowing personal experience that I’ve related in this newsgroup. I don’t mind most people knowing my real name, which is Stephen Barnard, but I don’t want it continually plastered all over Usenet. So I compromise. I use an alias, but I reveal my name occasionally so at least the regulars know whom they’re talking to. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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Mike Connor  AKA Upstream Spider

How do we know that your name is really Mike Connor? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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snip their own sense of etiquette. Bad temper, and bad manners can end up in a feedback loop that only makes things worse. And it seems more likely the more of us there are sharing the water. I try to hold my temper and sense of proportion in check. But or overkill?

My math isn’t very good but I come up with: more fishermen * same streams = more fishermen per stream (and most of them pissed off) The only variable I see there is the fishermen. They must change in either attitude or numbers. Nothing else will. Please advise where, when & if you plan to thin the standing crop of anglers. Thanks Kiyu

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My math isn’t very good but I come up with: more fishermen * same streams = more fishermen per stream (and most of them pissed off) Kiyu

You’re right, it isn’t.  That should be Fisherman / streams = fishermen per stream Kevin  

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – snip their own sense of etiquette. Bad temper, and bad manners can end up in a feedback loop that only makes things worse. And it seems more likely the more of us there are sharing the water. I try to hold my temper and sense of proportion in check. But or overkill? My math isn’t very good but I come up with: more fishermen * same streams = more fishermen per stream (and most of them pissed off) The only variable I see there is the fishermen. They must change in either attitude or numbers. Nothing else will. Please advise where, when & if you plan to thin the standing crop of anglers.

The situation is actually somewhat more complicated than what you describe.  In nearly fifty years on this planet I have met thousands of divorced persons, male and female.  Surprisingly, and in apparent defiance of immutable natural laws, in each case I have met the aggrieved party; NEVER the asshole.  The same sort of peculiarity marks my contacts with fishermen.  I never meet (in a social setting) the ill bred yuppie prick or the inbred bubba dipshit; only the well mannered and considerate gentlemen.  Anyone who doubts the possibility of something like this occurring need only read these pages for a few weeks.  All any of us asks is that we be allowed unlimited time in our favorite fishing spots unencumbered by the presence of any other human being within 12,000 miles or so.  What could be more reasonable and selfless?  Now, since we are ALL entirely void of the deplorable characteristics displayed by the lummoxen of whom we complain, it stands to reason that fishing assholes, like divorced assholes, are the residents of a parallel universe who somehow manage to cross over at odd intervals just to wreak havoc on our own blameless lives.  And since we have no reason to believe that the laws of nature behave differently in parallel universes it follows that simply shooting the bastards will never solve the problem because there are in all likelihood just as many of them as there are of us and from what I here they breed like rats anyway.  As well attack the tides with wooden lance! Wolfgang Oh WHY can’t everyone just be more like me?!

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snip one brookie but it was loads of fun on that lovely little rod.  Definitely a keeper.

I wouldn’t sell your stock in Sage just yet. I haven’t tossed a line with an RPL+ but from what I have read here they are nice rods and it is good to switch back and forth from time to time to appreciate what each rod can do for your fishing as your fishing & casting style will change over time. On another note and to revisit the GD I just will never get used to dealing with such incredibly inconsiderate, self consumed jerks.

As our streams become more crowded we will encounter and endure more "self consumed jerks" ….. and beginners who get mistaken for them. Sure streamside courtesy needs to be understood by all but I would doubt that hostile displays do much more than make the other angler think the messenger is a jerk.<G Beginners are usually (if they attended a class) taught in flocks and their early streamside habits often reflect this. Time & observation usually cures their crowding tendencies. A lot of seemingly inconsiderate behavior by experienced fishermen is because different streams develop their own codes of behavior and this gets carried over from stream to stream. I can almost guarantee that someone who regularly fishes a no-holds-barred, fight-for-your-space stream will seem to be a real jerk on a stream that has plenty of angling space and a different stream culture until he gets in sync with his surroundings. I have been on both ends of this. Most people don’t want to interfere with another’s fishing. If I feel someone has encroached upon what I deem to be my fishing space and I want to make a statement about it I quickly reel in without a word & leave for another spot. It is an obvious gesture, is very clear and often gets an apology (unless the person actually is a jerk in which case he will probably not understand any gesture except the single fingered one – and that could get dangerous for all parites). As well, I have sought out anglers to apologize to who have responded similarly to my own chowderheaded but inadvertent encroachments. Works for me – may not work for you. Kiyu

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah right… somebody’s in my way, so kill him. Land of the free, hey? Herman Ah, well, there is something to be said about etiquette. … Within 5 minutes, here he is, right in front of me. So I move downstream. This little game goes on for the next hour.  … Well, nobody owns the stream, we must learn to cope with whomever else shares it with us. Phooey, this is why god invented handguns. — Ken Fortenberry — Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

sharing at all.  One doesn’t share reverie or tranquility.  It is a selfish thing we all need.  Some people need to  get away from even looking or seeing another human being.  Fly fishing is one place where that is possible.  Disturbing a man’s reverie is about the biggest sin anyone can do to another fly fisherman.  Reverie is so precious to some that to disturb it is to replace it with rage, which is reverie’s opposite.   Normally, there are other humans about fishing but it then comes down to a zone of several hundred yards or just a hundred yards but no less than that. It can mean, don’t dog my trail and don’t follow me around. Fly fishing is more a state of mind as anything else.  It doesnot need to be catching anything at all.  It can just be a place not to be shared or seen by others.  It can be just the knowledge that someone walks well around and away who is smart enough not to even say "hello."  One doesn’t go fly fishing to hear ‘hello’ from others, believe it or not.  All this sounds cruel, but ’some individuals’ need a piece of heaven on earth that is undisturbed.  This is a feature in the outdoors that is becoming rarer as each year goes by. As Mel Levin said one time, "Don’t say hello to that guy!  Before you know it, you’ll be exchanging flies, business cards and when you get home you will either get a telephone call or a love letter!  NEVER, say hello astream!" Finally, there is that burning question we all get, or at least the ones that are catching trout.  Suddenly!  From behind comes this rude invasion of privacy.  "What fly are you using?" I always answer, "The one found in "Matching the Hatch!"  Why do you ask? — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

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"Ken Fortenberry" wrote…  … Well, nobody owns the stream, we must learn to cope with whomever else shares it with us. Phooey, this is why god invented handguns.

Ok, I’m relatively new to the sport of fly fishing. I mean, I’ve fished about 100 days in the last year, but almost always by myself on a private pond. So although I try to be a good sport and show etiquette, I can envision that somebody might infringe on someone else out of naivete rather than ill-will. I hope that if I were to–out of a lack of knowledge–infringe on what someone else considered to be their fishing "space" that the other party would be willing correct me politely and only shoot if I did it a second time. I’m assuming as well that we’re talking about infringement by strangers and not necessarily situations where you’re fishing with someone you know, right? –Steve (so call me an idiot, at least I’m trying to learn)

Response:

Last year, I was fishing Mt. Vernon creek, a small popular spot not too far from Madison, WI. My buddy and I were treated to a streamside invective (a litany, really) directed by a fellow fisherman at the injustice of having arrived to find the stream full of other fisherman when he had been fishing that water for 20 years. Didn’t get a lot of sympathy from me, as I’ve been fishing it a good 5 years longer. But I *could* understand the frustration he must have felt as he watched the crowds grow over the years. For ourselves, we had already begun to leave work early in order to beat others to the stream. I suspect this guy has learned the same trick, or begun driving further. I wonder if some of the increased inconsiderate behavior we’ve had to bear over the years resulted from bad tempers caused by other, usually thoughtful people who had experienced boorishness just one too many times, and lost their own sense of etiquette. Bad temper, and bad manners can end up in a feedback loop that only makes things worse. And it seems more likely the more of us there are sharing the water. I try to hold my temper and sense of proportion in check. But or overkill?

Response:

Yeah right… somebody’s in my way, so kill him. Land of the free, hey? Herman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ah, well, there is something to be said about etiquette. … Within 5 minutes, here he is, right in front of me. So I move downstream. This little game goes on for the next hour.  … Well, nobody owns the stream, we must learn to cope with whomever else shares it with us. Phooey, this is why god invented handguns. — Ken Fortenberry

– Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

Set out this morning in a fine, misty rain eager to fish a new 2 wt. I picked up yesterday afternoon (Orvis, Silver Label 792) to determine if it was a keeper or not.  Suffice is to say, I love the new rod.  I had used a Sage RPL+ in the past and didn’t like it at all…..it was very fast, felt like a darn pool cue.  After 15 minutes or so getting used to casting the full flex action rod it was turning over a size 18 furry black ant beautifully, laying it down on the water as though it had fallen from an overhanging tree limb (actually did manage to snag a tree).  Unfortunately, the weather took a turn for the worse and the light mist turned into a steady rain within the hour.  During that time I managed only one brookie but it was loads of fun on that lovely little rod.  Definitely a keeper. On another note and to revisit the GD Ahole thread…….I had been on the stream for about 30 minutes and was working my way upstream when this jerk comes tromping into the water about 20 yards upstream from me and begins dead drifting some sort of wet fly downstream in my direction all the while chatting with his buddy who was sitting up on the bank, obviously perturbed that I had the nerve to get there before them!  Good thing I didn’t have a gun, I may have just been pissed enough to use it . Anyway, I fished (more like just spent the time false casting the new 2 wt as close to him as I could) a little while longer and since the weather wasn’t great I just tromped and splashed as loudly and clumsily as I could upstream, right past him  and exited about 30 yards past the two interlopers. I just will never get used to dealing with such incredibly inconsiderate, self consumed jerks.  My 4 year old son has the brains and common sense consideration to know better than to do what they did.  When I was leaving I noticed their truck had out of state tags…I guess they figured since they traveled to get there they weren’t going to let anything stop them from wetting a line. Natty

Response:

My 4 year old son has the brains and common sense consideration to know better than to do what they did.

Well that’s probably because your son has a better father than those 2 guys. Don’t get angry with them – feel sorry for them. Regards, Jeff

Response:

Two wrongs don

Question:

It was not ffing – in was fly catching, and required very lttle effort or skill. However, a mid-night raid on such  a place would be *more* than ethical. Dave L.

I wouldn’t recommend a midnight raid due to the dogs, the river keep and the twelve gauge.but I’m planning on staying in the guest cottage at Terry’s for the clave and will try my best to work something out. I will call him tomorrow and see what he says about groups, rates, discounts etc…The shop I guide for has a deal with Terry in which we guide anyone who wants to fish there. The fish are too huge to land alone so this is recommended. I have fished there a bunch and can assure you that there is nothing easy about landing a 6 pound Kamloops on a sz. 18 pheasant tail. The fishing is easy- if you use a cork pellet- but if you fish it according to the hatches and the mood of the fish its a damn fun time and a challenge. For a time this year I was nailing them on a sz. 18 sulphur parachute – it’ll make your knees shake watching a 26 inch brown sip down a fly that small. . My personal best was a 15 pound rainbow. I caught her on a sz. 16 beetle, barbless…..My funniest catch was a 20 some odd inch Kamloops that put me into the backing in one long run. It took the fly, turned tail and ran straight at me, jumped chest high into the air, bounced off  a boulder in front of me and kept on hauling. She ran 60 feet in one run. The run was so violent I ended up tangled in the trees 50 feet downstream. I ran after her, pulled my line out of the trees, and tried to reel her in. Another run upstream, and the down…….I landed her after a long fight. Funny thing is, I was just showing my guest how to roll cast and didn’t expect to hook Granted, it may be fake, but it will have you shaking in your boots. By no means is it easy.  Any how, enough rambling, I’ll let you guys know what Terry says tomorrow. I just decided that I’m going to fish there for a while in the evening if I can. I’ll post a report…… Tight lines…. Matt McCray

Response:

I wouldn’t recommend a midnight raid due to the dogs, the river keep and the twelve gauge.but I’m planning on staying in the guest cottage at Terry’s for the clave and will try my best to work something out. I will call him tomorrow and see what he says about groups, rates, discounts etc…

That’s right nice of you Matt. I actually knew that you were a guide for that stretch of water from talking to Walt and from reading your emails on the NC list, but since we haven’t met, I didn’t want to be so bold as to ask a favor. However, I do have one suggestion. When you talk to Terry, tell him that ROFF consists primarily of well-kempt expert anglers who could bring in lots of future business due to their influence among the wealthy. As opposed to divulging the fact that ROFF is really just a rowdy bunch of profane cheapskates who will attack even a dogwood tree when sufficiently drunk. –Steve

Response:

No job openings in Wilmington IJ, but I do offer a standing invitation to drive down there and show you how to fix your newsreader so that your name shows up in the From list when you post Take care, IJ. We’ll see you soon!! –Steve

How does IJ do that, anyhow?  I already told Walt I was coming to the spring clave in Carolina.  However, I forgot to mention that my attendance was contingent upon the presence of Indian Joe.  Wouldn’t be a Carolina Clave without THE MAN being there. Mark Faulkner

Response:

However, I do have one suggestion. When you talk to Terry, tell him that ROFF consists primarily of well-kempt expert anglers who could bring in lots of future business due to their influence among the wealthy. As opposed to divulging the fact that ROFF is really just a rowdy bunch of profane cheapskates who will attack even a dogwood tree when sufficiently drunk. –Steve

        since we are under oath here on roff, i must admit to all the accusations contained in this post, save one:  i haven’t been well-kempt since becky oakley and jody stirewalt got into the ritual mushrooms back in ‘78 and decided to make me a human sacrifice to the goddess of love.  it is my firm belief that the statute of limitations has run on that incident. wayno the innocent – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

since becky oakley and jody stirewalt got into the ritual wayno the innocent

Ahhhh, Becky and Jody; I taught them everything they know back in ‘74. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

(snipped extremely large dose of fermented BS) in the evening if I can. I’ll post a report…… Tight lines…. Matt McCray

Walt, Matt’s been at the mushrooms again. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

Steve Z: <<As opposed to divulging the fact that ROFF is really just a rowdy bunch of profane cheapskates who will attack even a dogwood tree when sufficiently drunk.

That’s it, Zimmerman!  It am generous to a fault, it wasn’t a dogwood, and it was Jeffy what was drunk!  Did you pay me for your ‘clave hat?  d;0) Louie

Response:

Steve Z: <<As opposed to divulging the fact that ROFF is really just a rowdy bunch of profane cheapskates who will attack even a dogwood tree when sufficiently drunk. That’s it, Zimmerman!  It am generous to a fault, it wasn’t a dogwood, and it was Jeffy what was drunk!  Did you pay me for your ‘clave hat?  d;0)

You forgot to say ‘f*ck profanity’<g. — Charlie…

Response:

it is my firm belief that the statute of limitations has run on that incident. wayno the innocent

As Delbert McClinton says, "it ain’t what you eat but the way how you chew it". — Charlie…

Response:

since we are under oath here on roff, i must admit to all the accusations contained in this post, save one:  i haven’t been well-kempt since becky oakley and jody stirewalt got into the ritual mushrooms back in ‘78 and decided to make me a human sacrifice to the goddess of love.  it is my firm belief that the statute of limitations has run on that incident. wayno the innocent

LOL.   I seem to remember a similar incident involving a certain cactus. Of course you’re the legal expert here, but our president has made abundantly clear the difference between "innocent" and "not convicted". Joe F.

Response:

I sent him an email a couple of weeks ago, detailing the steps.  I think he enjoys the anonymity. Tom — Tom Brown The Signal Group Wake Forest, NC The older you get, the better you realize you are. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steve   Wore my code marine tee shirt during super senior tennis tournament in kKGreensboro this weekend. Do I get some type of commission, it sure did not help my game. We play doubles, my partner and I won first two matches then my legs <still tired from  Slick Rock Creek in fall gave out. If you’re gonna blame the T-shirt for your poor tennis play then I don’t think we’re going to be in any mood to pay you an endorsement check. If you had won, on the other hand, then that would be a different story. Mebbie a handful of Albolene or a used T-shirt  I can be in Raleigh in two hours so if you guys are flying out to Maine or someplace fishing and the company plane will hold three give me a call . What’s your fishing schedule looking like over the Christmas holidays? I’m not sure the plane is available, but we’re trying to work things out to drop in unannounced on Marie. You’re welcome to join us.  Think you are a pretty smart guy, after very short exposure to fall ball gang I notice you have planned to arrange own quarters. for spring clave. It’s not that I didn’t like the people. Summa the nicest FF folks I’ve ever met. But I can tell you that I was worried during my visits to the cabin at the Fall Ball that the ATF was going to raid the cabin and that LaCourse was going to put on his best Koresh impression and torch the place. All the downstream neighbors on Arkca creek are still trying ti to find the guys who poisioned their stream when they threw the left over meals into the stream beh9ind the cabin. I never did find out how that spaghetti sauce turned out IJ. Bill and I were too afraid to show up for dinner that night. Think I am getting pretty good on this computator thing,  Might br be ablr able to get rid of my fire and blanket. Does your company want a highly paid executative   who lives in Wilmington? No job openings in Wilmington IJ, but I do offer a standing invitation to drive down there and show you how to fix your newsreader so that your name shows up in the From list when you post Take care, IJ. We’ll see you soon!! –Steve

Response:

Steve   Wore my code marine tee shirt during super senior tennis tournament in kKGreensboro this weekend. Do I get some type of commission, it sure did not help my game.  We play doubles, my partner and I won first two matches then my legs <still tired from  Slick Rock Creek in fall gave out.      I can be in Raleigh in two hours so if you guys are flying out to Maine or someplace fishing and the company plane will hold three give me a call .  Think you are a pretty smart guy, after very short exposure to fall ball gang I notice you have planned to arrange own quarters. for spring clave.   All the downstream neighbors on Arkca creek are still trying ti to find the guys who poisioned their stream when they threw the left over meals into the stream beh9ind the cabin.    Think I am getting pretty good on this computator thing,  Might br be ablr able to get rid of my fire and blanket. Does your company want a highly paid executative   who lives in Wilmington?  Indian Joe

Response:

IJ…might be time to adjust the medication a bit <G. BTW, it’s a different crowd "downstream" in avery/watauga…they’ll have you locked up on charges for environmental pollution within the first day! … of course, you’ll probably be staying over at elk river at tom selleck’s place won’t you? jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steve   Wore my code marine tee shirt during super senior tennis tournament in kKGreensboro this weekend. Do I get some type of commission, it sure did not help my game.  We play doubles, my partner and I won first two matches then my legs <still tired from  Slick Rock Creek in fall gave out.  I can be in Raleigh in two hours so if you guys are flying out to Maine or someplace fishing and the company plane will hold three give me a call .  Think you are a pretty smart guy, after very short exposure to fall ball gang I notice you have planned to arrange own quarters. for spring clave. All the downstream neighbors on Arkca creek are still trying ti to find the guys who poisioned their stream when they threw the left over meals into the stream beh9ind the cabin.    Think I am getting pretty good on this computator thing,  Might br be ablr able to get rid of my fire and blanket. Does your company want a highly paid executative   who lives in Wilmington?  Indian Joe

Response:

Second, it was Louie (the evil one) that went on the midnight trip and the waters weren’t restricted. Now, if you wanna hang with those guys, Steve, ya gotta get your stories right.  <g Dave L.

Yessir, Dave, sir, I’ll take my stripes sir. But sir my question still remains sir. Are you… uh I mean… is Louie going to lead us on a midnight trip into Boone’s Fork or are we gonna try to make some sorta financial arrangement to fish it sir? –Steve

Response:

Steve Z: <<Yessir, Dave, sir, I’ll take my stripes sir. But sir my question still remains sir. Are you… uh I mean… is Louie going to lead us on a midnight trip into Boone’s Fork or are we gonna try to make some sorta financial arrangement to fish it sir? Dang it, man, if I didn’t know better, I’d swear you were trained by wayno.  Shhhhhhhhhhh!  And we call them "raids" when we sneak in at night.   You know how to handle a flash-light?  A tree? Louie btw, what the hell is this Boone’s Fork thingy?

Response:

Dang it, man, if I didn’t know better, I’d swear you were trained by wayno.  Shhhhhhhhhhh!  And we call them "raids" when we sneak in at night.   You know how to handle a flash-light?  A tree? Louie btw, what the hell is this Boone’s Fork thingy?

Well, I was referring to a specific private section of the creek where the owners have "carefully cultivated the stream habitat" (read stocked insanely big fish and fed them pellets on a regular basis). The fish there are unbelievably big. See www.woundedfork.com for details. Walt calls it "fake fishing." I simply wanna know if he’s going to pull some strings with the locals to get us a few casts on these waters or if you were going to make… other… arrangements –Steve

Response:

Steve Z: <<Well, I was referring to a specific private section of the creek where the owners have "carefully cultivated the stream habitat" (read stocked insanely big fish and fed them pellets on a regular basis). The fish there are unbelievably big. See www.woundedfork.com for details. Walt calls it "fake fishing." I simply wanna know if he’s going to pull some strings with the locals to get us a few casts on these waters or if you were going to make… other… arrangements I agree with Walt.  I once belonged to a local ffing club.  Three heavily stocked ponds with very big fish.  After fishing there for awhile, I found out where the term "shooting fish in a barrel" came from.  It was not ffing – in was fly catching, and required very lttle effort or skill. However, a mid-night raid on such  a place would be *more* than ethical. Dave L.

Response:

Well, I was referring to a specific private section of the creek where the owners have "carefully cultivated the stream habitat" (read stocked insanely big fish and fed them pellets on a regular basis). The fish there are unbelievably big. See www.woundedfork.com for details. Walt calls it "fake fishing." I simply wanna know if he’s going to pull some strings with the locals to get us a few casts on these waters or if you were going to make… other… arrangements If they’re Orvis endorsed I’m sure Dave can pull some strings<g. — Charlie…

these waters, in a sense, are orvis endorsed. to fish them, you hafta arrange a guide trip at the orvis shop. I believe it’s $450.00. is it fake. well, in the sense that there ain’t no other stream in the state with fish like this…sure, it’s unreal, afterall, they are fed daily. are they big fish….well, they’re mighty damn big fish! kamloops, browns and rainbows, many well over 30". the biggest brookies i’ve ever seen, some 24"+. california golden trout in the 24" range. 100’s of fish between 12" & 24". it’s a sight to see, but it ain’t "real." does that mean i don’t fish it? hell, are you crazy? i’ll  fish it every time i’m lucky enough to wrangle an invite, which appropriately, is just once this year. there is a thrill involved with a 30"+ fish on a 3wt…even if it is "fake." is it wise to sneak in there….go ahead boys…. make terry’s day, or should i say, make his wolves day! yup…wolves. btw, Terry is a very nice fellah who has one of the neatest homes you’d ever want to see. the interior is pure fly fishing motif…from stained glass windows, artwork, books, upholstery, and even the silver and crockery….totally cool. walt — Ezflyfish.com http://www.ezflyfish.com BRBG http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

Response:

btw, Terry is a very nice fellah who has one of the neatest homes you’d ever want to see. the interior is pure fly fishing motif…from stained glass windows, artwork, books, upholstery, and even the silver and crockery….totally cool.

Do you think there’s a chance that if we told him what we’re planning (I’d be willing to give it a shot) that he might make certain allowances for us (reduced fee, no guide requirement, etc)? I think feeding the fish kinda crosses my own little line of what’s real and what’s fake, but as long as we’re gonna be in the area and all it would be nice to catch a really really big trout. –Steve

Response:

Steve   Wore my code marine tee shirt during super senior tennis tournament in kKGreensboro this weekend. Do I get some type of commission, it sure did not help my game. We play doubles, my partner and I won first two matches then my legs <still tired from  Slick Rock Creek in fall gave out.

If you’re gonna blame the T-shirt for your poor tennis play then I don’t think we’re going to be in any mood to pay you an endorsement check. If you had won, on the other hand, then that would be a different story. Mebbie a handful of Albolene or a used T-shirt  I can be in Raleigh in two hours so if you guys are flying out to Maine or someplace fishing and the company plane will hold three give me a

call . What’s your fishing schedule looking like over the Christmas holidays? I’m not sure the plane is available, but we’re trying to work things out to drop in unannounced on Marie. You’re welcome to join us.  Think you are a pretty smart guy, after very short exposure to fall ball gang I notice you have planned to arrange own quarters. for spring

clave. It’s not that I didn’t like the people. Summa the nicest FF folks I’ve ever met. But I can tell you that I was worried during my visits to the cabin at the Fall Ball that the ATF was going to raid the cabin and that LaCourse was going to put on his best Koresh impression and torch the place. All the downstream neighbors on Arkca creek are still trying ti to find the guys who poisioned their stream when they threw the left over meals into the stream beh9ind the cabin.

I never did find out how that spaghetti sauce turned out IJ. Bill and I were too afraid to show up for dinner that night. Think I am getting pretty good on this computator thing,  Might br be ablr able to get rid of my fire and blanket. Does your company want a highly paid executative   who lives in

Wilmington? No job openings in Wilmington IJ, but I do offer a standing invitation to drive down there and show you how to fix your newsreader so that your name shows up in the From list when you post Take care, IJ. We’ll see you soon!! –Steve

Response:

Steve Z: <<or is LaCourse planning to lead another midnight trip into restricted waters? Let me know, cause if we’re gonna do Boone’s Fork I’ll plan to tie up a few pellet flies this winter. –Steve (still waiting for the right moment to break the news of my May vacation to my wife) Firt of all, wuss, you announce nothing to the dear lady — you tell or "inform" her that you are going fishing with the guys next May.   Second, it was Louie (the evil one) that went on the midnight trip and the waters weren’t restricted. Now, if you wanna hang with those guys, Steve, ya gotta get your stories right.  <g Dave L.

Response:

I’ve reformatted your announcement below for the less fortunate. Also, I saw Boone’s Fork listed on your page. Does this mean are you going to talk your friends at Boone’s Fork into letting us fish their "fake fishing" stretch–or is LaCourse planning to lead another midnight trip into restricted waters? Let me know, cause if we’re gonna do Boone’s Fork I’ll plan to tie up a few pellet flies this winter. –Steve (still waiting for the right moment to break the news of my May vacation to my wife)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The 2nd Annual NC ROFF Spring Clave is planned. All are welcome to join us in fishing and merriment. Here is the link to all of the information.  http://users.boone.net/wgw/clave.html Hope to see ya there. Walt

Response:

-Walt  you got so excited about spring that you forgot to type a message. PLEASE REANNOUNCE.    Indian Joe

Response:

-Walt  you got so excited about spring that you forgot to type a message. PLEASE REANNOUNCE.  Indian Joe

sorry ij…i guess the html kilt it. i’ll try again. ***ANNOUNCING*** The 2nd Annual NC ROFF Spring Clave is planned. All are welcome to join us in fishing and merriment. Here is the link to all of the information. The 2nd Annual NC ROFF Spring Clave is planned. All are welcome to join us in fishing and merriment. Here is the link to all of the information. http://users.boone.net/wgw/clave.html Hope to see ya there. Walt Hope to see ya there. Walt — Ezflyfish.com http://www.ezflyfish.com BRBG http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

Response:

The 2nd Annual NC ROFF Spring Clave is planned. All are welcome to join us in fishing and merriment. Here is the link to all of the information.  ’00 R.O.F.F. Spring Fling Hope to see ya there. Walt

Response:

Question:

I’ve decided that it’s about time I changed the bead on my nipple ring (14 g).  I figured that I could get a pair of pliers to open and close the ring at an art supply store, but I was wondering what exactly I should be looking for.   Thanks, Spidey

Response:

I’ve decided that it’s about time I changed the bead on my nipple ring (14 g).  I figured that I could get a pair of pliers to open and close the ring at an art supply store, but I was wondering what exactly I should be looking for.

What you need is a pair of circlip pliers, the type that open as you squeeze the handles, You’d get them at a hardware store.  Put the ends of the circlip pliers inside the bcr, squeeze gently and the ball will just drop out.

Response:

I’ve decided that it’s about time I changed the bead on my nipple ring (14 g).  I figured that I could get a pair of pliers to open and close the ring at an art supply store, but I was wondering what exactly I should be looking for.  

Art supplies aren’t the first thing to come to mind when thinking of where to get new pliers. Hardware hardware hardware. Up here we have Eagle Hardware (unaware of stores outside of WA) Eagle is the shit…and a good place to get all the heavy hardware for your SM/BD needs…usually a handsome *bear* to help you to boot. Seattle is such a piercing friendly place, if I went to the hardware store asking for pliers to open my cbr’s they’d prolly lead me right to them.   You could also wrap tape around the jaws of a pair of needle nose…those are real easy to barrow, you have 14ga rings, those don’t really require special tools. Good luck in your shopping Qathi — "I appreciate and support Lani’s efforts to keep r.a.b. a useful, interesting, readable newsgroup"    =^..^=            =^..^=

Response:

I’ve decided that it’s about time I changed the bead on my nipple ring (14 g).  I figured that I could get a pair of pliers to open and close the ring at an art supply store, but I was wondering what exactly I should be looking for.  

Depending on which part of the country you’re from, you’ll find them called circlip pliers, reverse pliers or lock-ring pliers.  I found a pair at my local hardware store for about $10.  However, my guess is that you won’t need them for a 14g ring.  I can open anything under 12g with my fingers….. laura

Response:

I’ve decided that it’s about time I changed the bead on my nipple ring (14 g).  I figured that I could get a pair of pliers to open and close the ring at an art supply store, but I was wondering what exactly I should be looking for.  

For opening the ring (assuming its not soft enough to turn with your bare hands) I’d head off to a hardware store and ask for Snap Ring Pliers.  Wrap the ends in tape (masking or even better, first-aid tape) to avoid scratches. For closure, pretty much any generic pliers will do, thuogh if you’re feeling really fancy, you could get jewellers pliers. In either case, avoid scratching the jewelry, and ensure that your instruments are clean!  Its simple and easy to use a pressure-cooker that’ll kill off any nasties.  Either that, or consider going to a piercer to do it for you.  Most will do it gladly for a minimal fee, or (like we do) a hefty tip. Denise Robinson, AMBIENT "Peerless Prodigies of Physical Phenomena!"         Ottawa, Canada- EH! (613)723-4779         http://infoweb.magi.com/~ambient/

Response:

I’ve decided that it’s about time I changed the bead on my nipple ring (14 g).  I figured that I could get a pair of pliers to open and close the ring at an art supply store, but I was wondering what exactly I should be looking for.  

 Like everyone else said, go to a hardware store, get snap ring pliers. If you want to get a look at what these tools look like before heading to the store, poke around on "Gauntlet’s" web page. Or just do like Denise Robinson suggested:  "Either that, or consider going to a piercer to do it for you." Best luck, Jeff.

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I’ve decided that it’s about time I changed the bead on my nipple ring (14 g).  I figured that I could get a pair of pliers to open and close the ring at an art supply store, but I was wondering what exactly I should be looking for.  

Try removing the bead without pliers.  Rings are manufacturered to different hardnesses, depending on the company.  I prefer to use rings that are annealed – they are more flexible and resist metal fatigue. If your ring is 5/8" in diameter or larger, you should be able to remove the bead fairly easily.  Use a tissue for a more secure grip. If you must use pliers, tape the jaws with 3 layers of tape to prevent scratching.  Scratched jewelry can damage a piercing. Ring expanding pliers (reverse action) are used to expand the ring just enough to dislodge the ball.  The ring should spring back into shape.  Ring expanding pliers are available from many body jewelry manufacturers. —                                  * Ardvark *                               Anne  Greenblatt                   Piercing FAQ Manager for rec.arts.bodyart                              Piercing Exquisite                          http://www.c2.org/~ardvark/

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– – I’ve decided that it’s about time I changed the bead on my nipple ring (14 – g).  I figured that I could get a pair of pliers to open and close the – ring at an art supply store, but I was wondering what exactly I should be – looking for.   – – -Try removing the bead without pliers.  Rings are manufacturered to -different hardnesses, depending on the company.  I prefer to use rings that -are annealed – they are more flexible and resist metal fatigue. – -If your ring is 5/8" in diameter or larger, you should be able to remove -the bead fairly easily.  Use a tissue for a more secure grip. – -If you must use pliers, tape the jaws with 3 layers of tape to prevent -scratching.  Scratched jewelry can damage a piercing. – -Ring expanding pliers (reverse action) are used to expand the ring just -enough to dislodge the ball.  The ring should spring back into shape.  Ring -expanding pliers are available from many body jewelry manufacturers. Or your local hardware store  :) Me, a couple of weeks ago at the hardware store:    ME: "I’m looking for expanding ring pliers"    CLERK: "What are you using them for?"    ME: "I need to change my jewelry"    CLERK: "PA?" Which lead to a discussion of our various pierces… I put heat-shrink tubing on the jaws of the pliers to keep from scratching the jewelry. —         Steve Carter      

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Try removing the bead without pliers.  Rings are manufacturered to different hardnesses, depending on the company.  I prefer to use rings that are annealed – they are more flexible and resist metal fatigue.

I have found slightly twisting the ring sideways, rather than spreading it works, and it’s fairly easy to ‘flatten’ the ring back into shape if you go too far, rather than trying to reform a circle.  I also used that technique in everything from jewlry making to fly fishing If your ring is 5/8" in diameter or larger, you should be able to remove the bead fairly easily.  Use a tissue for a more secure grip.

A garage handiwipe or cotten kitchen wipe rag works well too, and wont scratch. They are usually blue, in a pop up dispenser, are thicker, and give a grip, without grit and I can’t remember the brand for the life of me, ….  Some brands of finger cots, made of a slightly thicker latex than durible condoms, also give good grip without damage on smaller jewlry (esp if you have small fingers).  The only way to know is to try them.  You can find them in pharmacies and sometimes bead-shops. If you must use pliers, tape the jaws with 3 layers of tape to prevent scratching.  Scratched jewelry can damage a piercing.

Heat shrink tubing, or specifically plastic eletricians tape works well. Also, using FLAT pliers, without teeth, is better, since damage to the ball is truly minimized… *OR* use a plier that has been slightly modified by removing just enough teeth to let a ball nestle in it, and use the electricians tape to provide a cushioned grip.  I have a modified craftsman pliers that has worked well like this on the larger guages, giving a good grip – espeically for trying to INSERT the ball into the closed ring. Ring expanding pliers (reverse action) are used to expand the ring just enough to dislodge the ball.  The ring should spring back into shape.  Ring expanding pliers are available from many body jewelry manufacturers.

Yes, and come in many sizes… they are good, with a gentle touch, to pop the ball out, and in conjunction with a soft grip pliers like the one above, the ball can be inserted/removed while the ring is held slightly open by the expanding pliers. Of course, for each ring size, you need to have a set of pliers <G… gets expensive for a shop to buy all at once…. but getting one pair for your own jewlry should be affordable — about as much as a new ring. — BodyArtist Practioner in Flesh http://www.bodyart.com     Gallery Area & Members Areas Available Custom scanning 35mm & Prints.    In Pittsburgh – while you wait!

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Ummmm, okay, thanks everyone fore replying.  This is kind of weird because I posted the original question about two months ago, and got replies then, all of the sudden there are more?   But yes, I did get the right kind of pliers, I need to expand the ring for a new super cool bead that is a little wider than the original one.  

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Fall is closing in fast and that means cold water flyfishing will be picking up. Please visit our homepage for the latest in chest fly boxes. Never leave your fly box on the bank again. Email us for a free brochure. Our URL is http://www4.coastalnet.com/downstream Thank you, Mike Downs

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snip Please visit our homepage for the latest in chest fly boxes.

snip Hmmmm…looks kind of like a Rex Richardson box to me… Ross

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all the streams and rivers i visited were totally blown out, all are at max capacity and downright dangerous.  Ask again in a month. chico phil

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Anyone have a report on opening weekend in the No. CA areas such as Trinity River, Pit River, Hat Creek, Fall River, etc.? Richard

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Anyone have a report on opening weekend in the No. CA areas such as Trinity River, Pit River, Hat Creek, Fall River, etc.? Richard

Not exactly, but here’s a report on davis/frenchman lakes: I chose to try Lake Davis instead of fighting crowds and torrents on the streams. The main body of water was ice-free and the boat ramp had been plowed; but there was still ice in some of the coves.  Heavy rain and wind drummed on my truck roof early morning saturday; I stayed warm and cozy and read a few chapters of Moby Dick. I wadered up and tried to fish but it was too rough and murky, visibility less than a foot, so I headed downhill to seek alternatives. The creeks draining Davis and Frenchman lakes were both clear enough to fish, flowing high and medium green, and many people but few flyfishers were fishing them. I arrived at Frenchman lake and tubered around some arms with streams flowing in. The weather was much nicer, just occasional gusts and brief spots of rain at midday. Visibility was around 4-5 feet, surface temperature 45f.  A few small black midges were evident on the surface.  I tried a two-fly rig of a #16 red chironomid and a #14 bead-head hare’s ear and caught two nice trout, about 16 and 18 inches, one on each fly.  All fins were intact and they had a rosy glow; I think they were wild trout and released them. The rain picked up a bit and wind got worse and I could no longer see bugs on the surface and wasn’t getting hits on the nymphs anymore. I tried purple, black and olive wooly buggers but had no more action.   I gave up before the late evening and headed home, satisfied and curious to return under better conditions.  Davis and Frenchman are not as far as they seem; access is within 1-1/2 to 1 hour from Reno. Both have plenty of coves that offer the tuber some protection from the common winds. The scenery on the road to Frenchman is beautiful – globular volcanic rock formations with caves and curves carved by the creek. I’ll put it on my list of places to sketch, sometime when it stops raining. Mark Vinsel PS – anyone try Hot Creek or the Owens? Visit my gallery: http://www.lanminds.com/local/vinnie/gallery.HTML

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