Question:

Jeff,   Just so I have the details correctly: 1 dry and 1 wet caddis, in orange. Size can be anything the tyer wishes?                               Tom

Response:

Jeff,   Just so I have the details correctly: 1 dry and 1 wet caddis, in orange. Size can be anything the tyer wishes?                               Tom

okay.  see how agreeable i am… jeff (btw, yer now on the rules committee)

Response:

jeff writes: btw, yer now on the rules committee

man, this place is getting like my workplace! People calling me dumbo and maggot, now the committees!  AARRRGH!                                  Tom now, about that matter of defining "orange"

Response:

Tom writes: now, about that matter of defining "orange"

Yes.  And perhaps a recipe….. Dave

Response:

Dave writes: Yes.  And perhaps a recipe…..

no, that would take all of the creativity out of it.                          Tom

Response:

Tom writes: Dave writes: Yes.  And perhaps a recipe….. no, that would take all of the creativity out of it.

Aha!  I see….. heh, heh, heh.

Response:

So can i go buy some caddis and spay paint them orange ???Are these going to be distrubited to all entries into the rodeo ? Also bareback or saddle broncs? And i would imagine there will be alot of bull there also.                    Handyman Mike           Standing in a river waving a stick

Response:

jeff writes: btw, yer now on the rules committee man, this place is getting like my workplace! People calling me dumbo and maggot, now the committees!  AARRRGH!                                  Tom now, about that matter of defining "orange"

If you’re tying Jeffies flies, I think you should be *real* creative.

Response:

Stan writes: If you’re tying Jeffies flies, I think you should be *real* creative.

well, shoot! Within a minute or two after scrambling down the bank, they will all be wet flies anyway!                                 Tom p.s. I am tying flies for myownself, thanks!

Response:

Stan writes: If you’re tying Jeffies flies, I think you should be *real* creative.

hmmm… may i suggest a bunch of orange thread and deerhair on a bottle opener? i lose bottle openers some kinda bad. p.s. I am tying flies for myownself, thanks!

kinda kills the swap idea then don’t it? jeff

Response:

Jeff writes: p.s. I am tying flies for myownself, thanks! kinda kills the swap idea then don’t it?

sorry if you misunderstood, I just wasn’t tying "proxy" flies for others. However, can someone clear up this confusion? Are we having a swap or also a one-fly angling contest at Blue Rock Hole? Ignorant little shit which I am, I am starting to get murky on the details.                                  Tom

Response:

Jeff writes: p.s. I am tying flies for myownself, thanks! kinda kills the swap idea then don’t it? sorry if you misunderstood, I just wasn’t tying "proxy" flies for others. However, can someone clear up this confusion? Are we having a swap or also a one-fly angling contest at Blue Rock Hole? Ignorant little shit which I am, I am starting to get murky on the details.                                  Tom

sorry about the murky details – it’s residue from the anticlave thing. anyway, yer the rules committee, so issue a ruling.  i thought we were tying, swapping, and then fishing the swaps (orange caddis only) at the axelrad rodeo at the blue rock hole. jeff

Response:

jeff clarifies: orry about the murky details – it’s residue from the anticlave thing. anyway, yer the rules committee, so issue a ruling.  i thought we were tying, swapping, and then fishing the swaps (orange caddis only) at the axelrad rodeo at the blue rock hole.

Wow, is this stuff complicated!  I mean, I invited you damned confeder….er, I mean Southerners up here, and now we have this convoluted mess!  Good Lord!  I say we tie them, swap them and then all go and get drunk after we drop them in the woods someplace whilst trying to sort them into boxes. Pretty much what is going to happen anyway, I figure. Alright, I will go along with your version, but don’t say I didn’t warn you, this is going to get Ugly. Good of you to take care of those tshirts for me.                                     Tom

Response:

Hearing about this rodeo, I couldn’t resist… Two cowboys are out on the range talking about their favorite sex positions. One says, "I think I enjoy the rodeo position the best." "I don’t think I have ever heard of that one," says the other cowboy. "What is it?" "Well, it’s where you get your wife down on all fours and you mount her from behind. Then you reach around and cup each one  of her  breasts in your hands and whisper in her ear, ‘Boy, these feel just like your sister’s.’ Then you try and hold on for 8 seconds." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well alrighty then… here it is.  Participants must tie one dry and one wet/nymph.  Only those attending the Penns clave can join the swap, but, you can have a surrogate (only one) tie your flies for you to be sent to me (only way wayno and pj could participate).  So, sign up, name your seconds (the one whats gonna tie your flies) and send them to me. I’ll send my snail mail address to those participating. Now, before anybody else makes the solicitation, I need a surrogate to tie my flies – with full attribution to you, of course!  Wolfgang, Mike Connor, rw, willi (if you aren’t attending), warren (if you aren’t attending), daytripper, petah c, somebody…i know one of you guys (or girls?) will be happy to help me out <G. Those who sign up and who attend the Penns clave automatically will be entered as participants in the 1st Annual Axelrad Memorial Bizarre Fly Rodeo at the Blue Rock Hole.  You will be allowed to use only orange caddis – dry and/or wet/nymph – for the duration of the rodeo at the Blue Rock Hole.  Further details will be announced by the Board of Directors, once we figure out who the hell they are gonna be. jeff

Response:

(SPLORK VANG MU!) I’ll try to remember that one Jeff.  Good one. bruce h

Response:

Well alrighty then… here it is.  Participants must tie one dry and one wet/nymph.  Only those attending the Penns clave can join the swap, but, you can have a surrogate (only one) tie your flies for you to be sent to me (only way wayno and pj could participate).  So, sign up, name your seconds (the one whats gonna tie your flies) and send them to me. I’ll send my snail mail address to those participating. Now, before anybody else makes the solicitation, I need a surrogate to tie my flies – with full attribution to you, of course!  Wolfgang, Mike Connor, rw, willi (if you aren’t attending), warren (if you aren’t attending), daytripper, petah c, somebody…i know one of you guys (or girls?) will be happy to help me out <G. Those who sign up and who attend the Penns clave automatically will be entered as participants in the 1st Annual Axelrad Memorial Bizarre Fly Rodeo at the Blue Rock Hole.  You will be allowed to use only orange caddis – dry and/or wet/nymph – for the duration of the rodeo at the Blue Rock Hole.  Further details will be announced by the Board of Directors, once we figure out who the hell they are gonna be. jeff

Response:

Question:

cheers peter waldo, who just shut down the clave… well sorta… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Most of you who grace these pages, have heard that I missed the NC clave thanks to a Windows NT project that was going to consume my life for the next two months.  Well, it hasn’t quite turned out that way. Despite all sorts of weird problems and NT idiosyncracies, it’s been rolling along not too badly.  So to cut to the chase, I got to knock off work around 3:00pm on Friday.  My fishing buddy begs off so I head up to the Grand alone.   First a quick stop at Grindstone, met John and he mentioned an access point well downstream of where I normally fish.   OK, new spot – I’m game. After driving by it the first time, I find it and it is a very pretty spot with an old bridge that has been closed to traffic.  The river is fairly wide here so two or three guys can fish the same flat without crowding one another.  There’s one guy fishing already and fish rising all around the flat.  While I’m getting my shit together, he pulls in two fish, one of a half decent size.  We chat when I get down to the water and he recommends small – #16 and under.  This is a late season tactic, early on most of the fish can be taken on #14s and larger. Anyway, I figure since he’s catching fish, I’ll follow suit.  Without going into a long song ‘n dance, I must have hooked up twenty chubs. Most of the rising fish were chubs and some were of a fair size 8+" so it wasn’t always easy to tell the chubs from the browns.  Plus the chubs were so aggressive, they’d often take the fly before it got to the brown I was aiming for. I must of looked like I needed help as he frequently offered advice and instructions on how to set the hook, present a fly, etc.  I was there almost an hour after many chubs, I finally took my first brown on a #20 caddis.  I didn’t really go for his "small is better" philosophy and standing around, I could see larger insects coming off. Just upstream of me, a brown lunged at an emerging caddis and missed. The caddis flew toward me and I caught it – tan body, size #14, dark spotted wing – perfect Kings River Caddis.  On went a #14 KRC and good things started to happen.  After a few browns, I caught one very large chub with what appeared to be spines on it’s head and a pink hue to the scales.  Afterward, I looked it up at home and the spines were tubercles – the fish was in its spawning colours.  It was a pretty fish but I was getting fed up of the chubs. To solve the chub problem, I tied on a min-brown streamer.  After about ten casts I’d hooked up six or seven fish.  This went on for about half an hour and along the way, I managed to pick up one nice one amongst the smaller browns.  After I landed the nice one, the other guy announces that he’s going back to his car to get some streamers.  After about 20 or so browns, my poor little mini was wrecked – it was the only one I had left.  I moved to the other side of the bridge and took about another half-dozen on a Little Brown Trout before the thunder started up and I headed home. BTW, after about my tenth brown on the mini, the flow of instructions sorta dried up.  <g Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

– Walter G. Winter Ezflyfish.com:  http://www.ezflyfish.com Blue Ridge Book Gallery: http://www.crosswinds.net/~brbg/books/brbg-2.html

Response:

Most of you who grace these pages, have heard that I missed the NC clave thanks to a Windows NT project that was going to consume my life for the next two months.  Well, it hasn’t quite turned out that way. Despite all sorts of weird problems and NT idiosyncracies, it’s been rolling along not too badly.  So to cut to the chase, I got to knock off work around 3:00pm on Friday.  My fishing buddy begs off so I head up to the Grand alone.   First a quick stop at Grindstone, met John and he mentioned an access point well downstream of where I normally fish.   OK, new spot – I’m game. After driving by it the first time, I find it and it is a very pretty spot with an old bridge that has been closed to traffic.  The river is fairly wide here so two or three guys can fish the same flat without crowding one another.  There’s one guy fishing already and fish rising all around the flat.  While I’m getting my shit together, he pulls in two fish, one of a half decent size.  We chat when I get down to the water and he recommends small – #16 and under.  This is a late season tactic, early on most of the fish can be taken on #14s and larger. Anyway, I figure since he’s catching fish, I’ll follow suit.  Without going into a long song ‘n dance, I must have hooked up twenty chubs. Most of the rising fish were chubs and some were of a fair size 8+" so it wasn’t always easy to tell the chubs from the browns.  Plus the chubs were so aggressive, they’d often take the fly before it got to the brown I was aiming for. I must of looked like I needed help as he frequently offered advice and instructions on how to set the hook, present a fly, etc.  I was there almost an hour after many chubs, I finally took my first brown on a #20 caddis.  I didn’t really go for his "small is better" philosophy and standing around, I could see larger insects coming off. Just upstream of me, a brown lunged at an emerging caddis and missed. The caddis flew toward me and I caught it – tan body, size #14, dark spotted wing – perfect Kings River Caddis.  On went a #14 KRC and good things started to happen.  After a few browns, I caught one very large chub with what appeared to be spines on it’s head and a pink hue to the scales.  Afterward, I looked it up at home and the spines were tubercles – the fish was in its spawning colours.  It was a pretty fish but I was getting fed up of the chubs. To solve the chub problem, I tied on a min-brown streamer.  After about ten casts I’d hooked up six or seven fish.  This went on for about half an hour and along the way, I managed to pick up one nice one amongst the smaller browns.  After I landed the nice one, the other guy announces that he’s going back to his car to get some streamers.  After about 20 or so browns, my poor little mini was wrecked – it was the only one I had left.  I moved to the other side of the bridge and took about another half-dozen on a Little Brown Trout before the thunder started up and I headed home. BTW, after about my tenth brown on the mini, the flow of instructions sorta dried up.  <g Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Question:

Response:

Hey, this is a "Catch & Release" newsgroup…                            - jqt –

Response:

Well said, and moderate yesiree. Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Remove me from your mailing list you forgot to say please. for that little faux-paus, you have to grovel here by posting: "oh pretty please, please for god’s sake, let me please be removed from this list" hourly, for three more weeks. sorry, it’s the facs maam. waldo, snedekerated appointed facs bastard.

Response:

You did it again Wayne.  You used up all of the on topic subjects, now we only have off topic subjects to talk about. Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Remove me from your mailing list Wayne Harrison wrote no, wait, stop!  don’t leave!  we can do better, i swear! we’ll stay on topic, honest to god!  please, wait…listen, how about this:  um, let’s see…oh, yeah:  7.5 foot rods are great for eastern freestone streams of average size; i like thomas & thomas, but that’s because i’m a very wealthy gear whore—you can get great, all-american type bargains at cabela’s.  remember to use a 9′5wt on those big, brawling western rivers, though.  oh, yeah, if you’re looking for a tip on where to go, try the beaverkill in new york, the madison or the yellowstone in montana, the south platte in colorado…ok, here’s a *real* inside tip:  go to the confluence of the frying pan and the roaring fork in colorado; a great guide lives there, in a shiny new house.  he let’s people stay for free.  oh, if you don’t know how to cast very well, always remember to keep your wrist firm, and don’t overpower the rod, ok?  hey, if you get all frustrated about your choice of fly your first time out on the battenkill, just slip an improved clinch (tied with an orvis leader) around that trusty ol royal wulff (size 14 is *unbeatable*) and hold on, pard!  and, heck, if you don’t haul em in by the dozens, what’s to worry:  i mean, it is "fishing", not "catching", right (pretty funny, eh?), and the whole point is to just be closer to nature or give a kid a chance to fish or be with god in your own special way or… did anybody ever tell you that you snore terribly? wayno, on topic, do or die.

Response:

Remove me from your mailing list Before you buy.

Response:

Remove me from your mailing list

        no, wait, stop!  don’t leave!  we can do better, i swear! we’ll stay on topic, honest to god!  please, wait…listen, how about this:  um, let’s see…oh, yeah:  7.5 foot rods are great for eastern freestone streams of average size; i like thomas & thomas, but that’s because i’m a very wealthy gear whore—you can get great, all-american type bargains at cabela’s.  remember to use a 9′5wt on those big, brawling western rivers, though.  oh, yeah, if you’re looking for a tip on where to go, try the beaverkill in new york, the madison or the yellowstone in montana, the south platte in colorado…ok, here’s a *real* inside tip:  go to the confluence of the frying pan and the roaring fork in colorado; a great guide lives there, in a shiny new house.  he let’s people stay for free.  oh, if you don’t know how to cast very well, always remember to keep your wrist firm, and don’t overpower the rod, ok?  hey, if you get all frustrated about your choice of fly your first time out on the battenkill, just slip an improved clinch (tied with an orvis leader) around that trusty ol royal wulff (size 14 is *unbeatable*) and hold on, pard!  and, heck, if you don’t haul em in by the dozens, what’s to worry:  i mean, it is "fishing", not "catching", right (pretty funny, eh?), and the whole point is to just be closer to nature or give a kid a chance to fish or be with god in your own special way or…         did anybody ever tell you that you snore terribly? wayno, on topic, do or die.

Response:

Remove me from your mailing list

You are hearby transferred to the mailing list of alt.flyfishingvampires.flonk.flonk.flonk!! — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

Well he is not going to get a refund for unsubscribing so soon

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wayno That was goooooooooooooooooood. Almost poetic. I see an opportunity as a Wallmart greeter. My hero. Dave PS Maybe need a line on how to dress and perhaps something about how now that they are retired from mid management they can’t expect others to coddle them. Remove me from your mailing list no, wait, stop!  don’t leave!  we can do better, i swear! we’ll stay on topic, honest to god!  please, wait…listen, how about this:  um, let’s see…oh, yeah:  7.5 foot rods are great for eastern freestone streams of average size; i like thomas & thomas, but that’s because i’m a very wealthy gear whore—you can get great, all-american type bargains at cabela’s.  remember to use a 9′5wt on those big, brawling western rivers, though.  oh, yeah, if you’re looking for a tip on where to go, try the beaverkill in new york, the madison or the yellowstone in montana, the south platte in colorado…ok, here’s a *real* inside tip:  go to the confluence of the frying pan and the roaring fork in colorado; a great guide lives there, in a shiny new house.  he let’s people stay for free.  oh, if you don’t know how to cast very well, always remember to keep your wrist firm, and don’t overpower the rod, ok?  hey, if you get all frustrated about your choice of fly your first time out on the battenkill, just slip an improved clinch (tied with an orvis leader) around that trusty ol royal wulff (size 14 is *unbeatable*) and hold on, pard!  and, heck, if you don’t haul em in by the dozens, what’s to worry:  i mean, it is "fishing", not "catching", right (pretty funny, eh?), and the whole point is to just be closer to nature or give a kid a chance to fish or be with god in your own special way or… did anybody ever tell you that you snore terribly? wayno, on topic, do or die.

Response:

mraz says: remove me from your mailing iist

Actually, mraz, you are not subscribed to a mailing list.  This is a newsgroup.  YOU have to unsubscribe yourself.  No one at Rec. Outdoors. Fishing. Fly (ROFF) can unsubscribe you.  I know how to do it with my isp, but not with your’s.  Do you have a window that that says "Remove" or perhaps "Quit"? Highlight roff and click on Remove or whatever and you should be unsubscribed. good luck. Dave L.

Response:

True, but it wouldn’t have been as much fun. Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – remove me from your mailing iist Jeff Cook wrote Okay, stop torturing the guy. <snip By the way, a simple question or polite request would have been much less noisy. Jeff Cook

Response:

remove me from your mailing iist Before you buy.

I don’t know how to break this to ya bud, but you subscribed yourself and only you can unsubscribe.  Perhaps you should use the Help feature in your email/news client and put in the word "subscribe" in the help search.   Don’t blame us if you don’t know how to use your newsreader. Peter

Response:

<snipped some helpful advice Please hold, an analysts will be with you shortly. <elevator music

actually Insid….doesn’t roff employs a proctologist for unsubscribing the az’s… jeff (avoiding the endoscope and proctoscope, and enjoyin the sh*t outta        roff)

Response:

Well he is not going to get a refund for unsubscribing so soon

I say we hold him hostage and stake him out for the meowers…

Response:

remove me from your mailing iist

Okay, stop torturing the guy. This is not a mailing list, it is a newsgroup. You are not subscribed to anything, but are actively asking for these messages to be displayed. Ask your internet provider or read the help files of your newsgroup reader software or your my-deja.com service to figure out how to drop rec.outdoors.fly.fishing from your active newsgroup list so you won’t be distracted by it anymore. By the way, a simple question or polite request would have been much less noisy. — Jeff Cook http://www.cookstudios.com Washington DC area

Response:

good luck.

There should be instructions on deja.com on how to do this, it’s not an ISP issue unless you are accessing through a news server as opposed to a web site. — Charlie…

Response:

        i have come to the terrifying conclusion that this goddam place is the hotel california, without the "champagne on ice", and all the other perks.

ROFLMAO! bc.

Response:

remove me from your mailing iist Before you buy.

Response:

remove me from your mailing iist

Pardon me, could you please repeat that?

Response:

remove me from your mailing iist

But you haven’t even asked for the address to send the unsubscribe fee.  It takes an incredible number of man-hours to unsubscride someone from this end, and we need to pass the costs onto the person requesting an emergency unsubscription. Now, it may cost you extra, as the ROFF tech staff is not sure where we keep the "iists" for mailing. Please hold, an analysts will be with you shortly. <elevator music

Response:

I say we hold him hostage and stake him out for the meowers…

Let’s stake him out and give him a good flonking! — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

I was extremely disappointed to find that you made no mention of what breathable waders he should buy. –Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – no, wait, stop!  don’t leave!  we can do better, i swear! we’ll stay on topic, honest to god!  please, wait…listen, how about this:  um, let’s see…oh, yeah:  7.5 foot rods are great for eastern freestone streams of average size; i like thomas & thomas, but that’s because i’m a very wealthy gear whore—you can get great, all-american type bargains at cabela’s.  MORE GREAT STUFF DELETED wayno, on topic, do or die.

Response:

Remove me from your mailing list

OK, I give up.  Whence cometh this overwhelming need to be abused in a public forum?  Would the Flagellants not accept you?  Have you been so naughty that you feel no punishment is strong enough?  What….WHAT on this Earth compels one to so obviously and abjectly come begging for a beating?

Response:

Remove me from your mailing list Wolfgang replied OK, I give up.  Whence cometh this overwhelming need to be abused in a public forum?  Would the Flagellants not accept you?  Have you been so naughty that you feel no punishment is strong enough?  What….WHAT on this Earth compels one to so obviously and abjectly come begging for a beating?

Add him to the femailing list. Ernie

Response:

Good luck. I have been trying to unsubscribe for 5 years. I have finally determined this NG is the ultimate virus that even my Norton Super Virus Killer cannot kill.

Response:

Good luck. I have been trying to unsubscribe for 5 years. I have finally determined this NG is the ultimate virus that even my Norton Super Virus Killer cannot kill.

        i have come to the terrifying conclusion that this goddam place is the hotel california, without the "champagne on ice", and all the other perks.         wayno, who is…afraid

Response:

Remove me from your mailing list

you forgot to say please. for that little faux-paus, you have to grovel here by posting: "oh pretty please, please for god’s sake, let me please be removed from this list" hourly, for three more weeks. sorry, it’s the facs maam. waldo, snedekerated appointed facs bastard.

Response:

Wayno That was goooooooooooooooooood. Almost poetic. I see an opportunity as a Wallmart greeter. My hero. Dave PS Maybe need a line on how to dress and perhaps something about how now that they are retired from mid management they can’t expect others to coddle them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Remove me from your mailing list no, wait, stop!  don’t leave!  we can do better, i swear! we’ll stay on topic, honest to god!  please, wait…listen, how about this:  um, let’s see…oh, yeah:  7.5 foot rods are great for eastern freestone streams of average size; i like thomas & thomas, but that’s because i’m a very wealthy gear whore—you can get great, all-american type bargains at cabela’s.  remember to use a 9′5wt on those big, brawling western rivers, though.  oh, yeah, if you’re looking for a tip on where to go, try the beaverkill in new york, the madison or the yellowstone in montana, the south platte in colorado…ok, here’s a *real* inside tip:  go to the confluence of the frying pan and the roaring fork in colorado; a great guide lives there, in a shiny new house.  he let’s people stay for free.  oh, if you don’t know how to cast very well, always remember to keep your wrist firm, and don’t overpower the rod, ok?  hey, if you get all frustrated about your choice of fly your first time out on the battenkill, just slip an improved clinch (tied with an orvis leader) around that trusty ol royal wulff (size 14 is *unbeatable*) and hold on, pard!  and, heck, if you don’t haul em in by the dozens, what’s to worry:  i mean, it is "fishing", not "catching", right (pretty funny, eh?), and the whole point is to just be closer to nature or give a kid a chance to fish or be with god in your own special way or… did anybody ever tell you that you snore terribly? wayno, on topic, do or die.

Response:

Question:

All Rounder with many extras. 10 ft.  1 or 2 people.  600 lb capacity.

Response:

 we can pic up a pail of lard for jeff to cook the eggs in,

actually, after careful study of the fly dressing thread, i’m ordering a barrel of albolene…understand it has a thousand uses… jeff

Response:

a thousand and one…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  we can pic up a pail of lard for jeff to cook the eggs in, actually, after careful study of the fly dressing thread, i’m ordering a barrel of albolene…understand it has a thousand uses… jeff

Response:

Mail by several of the members of that group to request that I ask you guys to stay at home. Their group has many fine ladies and gentlemen involved who like to discuss the finer points of technical points of fishing  , cigar smoking, and didigal camera without the necessity of deleting  a bunch of messages fro  a bunch of drunken rowdies planning another meeting in the woods.  I of course replied -something here inside cannot be denied- when smoke gets in your eyes.             We will have plenty of food for the  spring clave, lots of wild weeds to make Ken"s meetless lasanga,  tomatoes will be in season so Dave an juswt drop whole big ones   in his tacos, I sill have a half gallon of Wall Mart special red,  we can pic up a pail of lard for jeff to cook the eggs in, and I know Walt has a couple of jars of spaghetti sauce. God I’m getting as silly as the rest of you jackasses.  Indian Joe3 ied

Response:

Question:

just a quick question from a beginner. i’ve read all about weight of fly lines and matching lines to rods etc, but i’ve never heard mention of the breaking strain of fly lines. i guess it’s not important given that the leader will break before the actual line, but i was wondering, all the same, what the breaking strain of a 6 or 7 weight floating line would be? philip

Response:

just a quick question from a beginner. i’ve read all about weight of fly lines and matching lines to rods etc, but i’ve never heard mention of the breaking strain of fly lines. i guess it’s not important given that the leader will break before the actual line, but i was wondering, all the same, what the breaking strain of a 6 or 7 weight floating line would be? philip

Our club has alot of tuna fly fishing freaks and some of them have broken fly lines on fish. I’m led to believe the core of nearly all fly lines is only 25-40 lb. 20 lb is normally the heaviest tippet you can use ( IGFA class ) but in Australia our National Sportfishing Association allows 15 kg tippet (over 30 lb). Some shooting heads have broken (in the middle somewhere) during fights with big Yellowfin on these heavy tippets, which from all accounts can be a little demoralising. Regard John Knight Sydney Fly Rodders

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You are correct, it is not important. — Remove nospam to send E-mail Ernie Harrison   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -i guess it’s not important given that the leader will break before the actual line,

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – just a quick question from a beginner. i’ve read all about weight of fly lines and matching lines to rods etc, but i’ve never heard mention of the breaking strain of fly lines. i guess it’s not important given that the leader will break before the actual line, but i was wondering, all the same, what the breaking strain of a 6 or 7 weight floating line would be? philip Our club has alot of tuna fly fishing freaks and some of them have broken fly lines on fish. I’m led to believe the core of nearly all fly lines is only 25-40 lb. 20 lb is normally the heaviest tippet you can use ( IGFA class ) but in Australia our National Sportfishing Association allows 15 kg tippet (over 30 lb). Some shooting heads have broken (in the middle somewhere) during fights with big Yellowfin on these heavy tippets, which from all accounts can be a little demoralising. Regard John Knight Sydney Fly Rodders

Hi all, I think that fly lines #5 through #7 are built on  20# test braided line. I think #8 lines and larger are built on 30# test braided line. I know it is easier to needle knot a butt into a #8 line. It seem very hard to get a butt into a #2/3/4 weight line. I think that a line that is about 10 years old will have a weaker core because of the age. We now have lines with single mono cores and with braided mono cores. Some of the real fast sinking lines have a floss like twisted core. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

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i’ve never heard mention of the breaking strain of fly lines. i guess it’s not important given that the leader will break before the actual line, but i was wondering, all the same, what the breaking strain of a 6 or 7 weight floating line would be?

Irrelevant, i.e. a fine example of information that could be got but nobody conceivably needs.  You can see from the structure (dacron braid) that it would be in the range 50 to 150 lb., viz. stronger than all leader knots, backing, backing knot etc. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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i’ve never heard mention of the breaking strain of fly lines. i guess it’s not important given that the leader will break before the actual line, but i was wondering, all the same, what the breaking strain of a 6 or 7 weight floating line would be?

Irrelevant, i.e. a fine example of information that could be got but nobody conceivably needs.  You can see from the structure (dacron braid) that it would be in the range 50 to 150 lb., viz. stronger than all leader knots, backing, backing knot etc. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         | Even though the leader breaks, you still (at least I do) have to worry occassionaly about stepping on the line, puling down branches entwined in the line, and extracting it after getting wedged in rocks. :=) William Buchman

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just a quick question from a beginner. i’ve read all about weight of fly lines and matching lines to rods etc, but i’ve never heard mention of the breaking strain of fly lines. i guess it’s not important given that the leader will break before the actual line, but i was wondering, all the same, what the breaking strain of a 6 or 7 weight floating line would be?

As others have said that is mostly irrelevant information, however to give you some perspective on it, the floating running line used in shooting heads are about the same size as the belly section of a 2 wt. line and they are typically 30lb. breaking strength.  Six or seven wt. lines would be much stronger and the only real problem would be cutting them on a sharp object (cut a line in half on barnacles once, have seen lines cut in half with Stream Cleats) or cutting into the coating enough with a leader knot or other sharp object that the line hinges instead of smoothly transferring energy.  Never heard of a fly line just breaking.  It’s by far the strongest part of the line system.                              Hope this helps,                                   Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

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Question:

Dear Newsgroup, I appologise in advance for dredging up this recurrent question of which waders to buy. I have beeen fly fishing for about a month now and have come to realise the necessity of owning a pair of waders, however, I don’t know what sort to go for. Gortex or Neoprene, stocking with seperate boot or boot inclusive. I am looking for something that is   multi-purpose ie. can be used on rivers, lakes and streams.     Any advice will be gratefully received. J.J. Mc Dougall.

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Dear Newsgroup, I appologise in advance for dredging up this recurrent question of which waders to buy. I have beeen fly fishing for about a month now and have come to realise the necessity of owning a pair of waders, however, I don’t know what sort to go for. Gortex or Neoprene, stocking with seperate boot or boot inclusive. I am looking for something that is multi-purpose ie. can be used on rivers, lakes and streams.     Any advice will be gratefully received. J.J. Mc Dougall.

Hi J.J. Mc Dougall,         I own the Simms Neoprene waders, I feel these are the best waders on the market. They are constructed with a sealed glued and taped seam much like other high quality waders but there is no crotch seam witch is the second most likly spot to spring a leak, the first being the feet of course. The feet on the sims waders are made of a much thicker neoprene and taped with a heavy tacky rubber tape to keep your feet from sliding around in your wading boot. The shoulder strap will click together so on hot days you can fold the chest half of the waders down and wear them as waist height waders. The best feature to me though is how soft they are. You will see alot of people put their neoprenes on over their pants, well they’re not realy meant for that because it gets pretty bulky under there especialy in July. Because there are so soft you don’t have to worry about any chaffing. They come in both Stocking foot and boot foot styles I prefer the stocking foot because I do alot of float tubing and the boot foot does not give you enough ankle movement, the boot foot are however more convenient, so both have pros and cons. I personaly would stay away from the gortex waders they tear easy and I’m told they leak alot they are also not nearly as versitle as neoprenes. Good Luck! Joe Weisenburger jr.

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writes: I appologise in advance for dredging up this recurrent question of

which waders to buy. I have beeen fly fishing for about a month now and have come to

realise the necessity of owning a pair of waders, however, I don’t know what sort to go for.

Gortex or Neoprene, stocking with seperate boot or boot inclusive. I am looking for something that is   multi-purpose ie. can be used on rivers, lakes and streams.    Any advice will be gratefully received. J.J. Mc Dougall.

I recomend you get some catalogs, decide how much time you are willing to spend suiting up(stocking foot waders take more time to put on), how cold the weather is when you will be fishing (thickness of neoprene is some what dependent on this), how many times a year (or days) you wil be fishing(thickness also depends on this), how much money you are willing to spend on waders(life of the waders will depend on this and the previous two). Pick out waders you like inthe catalogs that fit the above criteria, go to your favorite local shop and buy the ones they have that most closely match your catalog pick(this way you have a face to talk to).

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Question:

Does anyone know the contact info for the Atlantic Salmon Foundation as well as membership dues, etc? Thanks Don Don Chen            *  Standard disclaimers apply here. USDA-ARS-NFSPRC     * 3450 SW Campus Way  *   Corvallis, OR 97331 *                     * 503-750-8721        *

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Does anyone know the contact info for the Atlantic Salmon Foundation

Atlantic Salmon Federation (US) P.O. Box 807, Calais, ME 04619-0807 (Cdn.) P.O. Box 529, St. Andrew’s, NB E0G 2XO 1 800 565-5666 Dues range from $40 (regular) up to $10,000 (Benefactor). — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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Check out: http://www.flyfishing.com/asf/ Andrew Clarke Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada

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Great and effective organisation with terrific membership benefits and publications. Their Web site is: http://www.flyfishing.com/asf/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone know the contact info for the Atlantic Salmon Foundation as well as membership dues, etc? Thanks Don Don Chen            *  Standard disclaimers apply here. USDA-ARS-NFSPRC     * 3450 SW Campus Way  *   Corvallis, OR 97331 *                    * 503-750-8721        *

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Question:

Hi Group– Well there’s now a pro and a con posted re: clipping hackle.  As a beginner in both tying them and fishing them, I’d like to see more on this subject from more experienced fishers–what does Issac Walton think about it?  Not being able to justify 50 bucks "for a bunch of feathers" to my dubious spouse, I don’t have many Metz primo capes, so I’m always snipping away at my creations.  (The height of my success as a tyer so far came when she swatted a fly I had in my vice–I call it a size 14 Blue-Green Bent Hook Flathead Roadkill). Anyway, should I add clipped hackle to my list of tying blunders?

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Yes, it is kind of a hassle to tie both wieghted and unweighted flies and keep them separated in your fly boxes.  Using both has allowed me to catch fish when the traditional nymph patterns would not produce.

No hassle of they are colour-coded by tying thread.  My weighted nymphs are all tied with red thread, easy to see;  if I were a closer imitationist I could choose between black, tan and olive. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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No hassle of they are colour-coded by tying thread.  My weighted nymphs are all tied with red thread, easy to see;  if I were a closer imitationist I could choose between black, tan and olive. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

Don, I do the same color coding with one small difference. I lead all my hooks first and use the color coded thread which I wrap down the bend of the hook a little. So, when I look in the flybox all I have to do is look under their little tails to see how I weighted them…   I know someone will come up with a good joke about looking under their tails (:^ Frank

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Don, I do the same color coding with one small difference. I lead all my hooks first and use the color coded thread which I wrap down the bend of the hook a little. So, when I look in the flybox all I have to do is look under their little tails to see how I weighted them… I know someone will come up with a good joke about looking under their tails (:^ Frank

Oh, I get it, Frank.  Sort of a variation on a lead-ass!  My father used to always call me that.  Now I know what he was talking about– the color of my underpants, which must have stuck out above my pants.  :^) (Sorry, best I could do under pressure.) :^( Charley

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        For slow to medium water, I’ve clipped a ^ into the bottom of the hackle for years. When I’m doing so, I deliberately use a hackle which is too long so that when trimmed will be the proper length.         The benefits of doing this are twofold. It sits very well on the water and has a terrific footprint on the water. A mayfly at rest on the water has long legs out to the side – not underneath it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well there’s now a pro and a con posted re: clipping hackle. When I started tying we had only Chinese and Idia necks.  We would have killed for a Metz #3 rooster neck.  Today they are around $30 and some shops split them in half or you might split one with a buddy. If you keep it away from bugs or you house pets they usually work to be a good long term investment with dries around $1.75 per each.  The most popular color is natural brown and then Grizzly.  Get some Pantone pens for coloring your Grizzly or Creme hackle in a pinch.  I haven’t clipped any hackle before, at least not on purpose, but I done think it would sit up like the natural ends.  Bill Kiene  Kiene’s Fly Shop  Sacramento, Ca.

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Well there’s now a pro and a con posted re: clipping hackle.

When I started tying we had only Chinese and Idia necks.  We would have killed for a Metz #3 rooster neck.  Today they are around $30 and some shops split them in half or you might split one with a buddy. If you keep it away from bugs or you house pets they usually work to be a good long term investment with dries around $1.75 per each.  The most popular color is natural brown and then Grizzly.  Get some Pantone pens for coloring your Grizzly or Creme hackle in a pinch.  I haven’t clipped any hackle before, at least not on purpose, but I done think it would sit up like the natural ends.  Bill Kiene  Kiene’s Fly Shop  Sacramento, Ca.

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Well can anyone out there give me a rule of thumb for weighting nymphs? My method in the past has been to first not weight the nymph itself so that it tumbled in the water more naturally.  I added weight (lead shot) about 8 inches up the tipet until JUST before my indicator would studder as the weight and nymph would drag the bottom.  I have always caught fish that way.  So I am fishing with this rookie who fished his nymph with no weight under an indicator.  I thought his nymph would never get anywhere near the bottom.  He started hooking fish and I was dry, both of us using the same PTs I had tied!.  Should I rething my nymphing strategy?  Can a nymph  act and be fished as an emerger with no modifications?  I’m thinking that these fish were wanting emergers and that my method for weighting is still very sound.  Opinions appreciated.  And please!  "No sticking to dry flys" cracks.

My experience in nymphing is that you should be prepared to offer both weighted and unweighted nymphs to actively feeding fish.  There are occasions when fish key on rising/hatching nymphs,  and virtually ignore bottom dwelling creatures even though they are plentiful. I try to tie my nymph flies to cover the full life cycle of the insect.  Something as simple as adding an emerging wing to a nymph can dramatically increase the effectiveness of a particular fly when nymphs are in transitional stage. As a rule of thumb for small nymphs (#14-#22) I add only enough weight to sink the fly a few inches.  I can always add or remove split shot to achieve the desired sink rate. Yes, it is kind of a hassle to tie both wieghted and unweighted flies and keep them separated in your fly boxes.  Using both has allowed me to catch fish when the traditional nymph patterns would not produce. I hope this helps. Bryan Bonds White River Anglers htttp://www.ipa.net/~bbonds Fayetteville, Ar

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:  (The height of my success as a tyer : so far came when she swatted a fly I had in my vice–I call it a size : 14 Blue-Green Bent Hook Flathead Roadkill).   Congratulations, Lee! Not often that the average joe can come up with a new pattern! You may want to publish it.  ;-  Anyway, should I add clipped hackle to my list of tying blunders?  My opinion, yes. It changes the appearnce of the fly. The fine tips of a natural feather make a difference in the silhoette and the floatabily. You may want to consider cheaper necks for now. The expensive one _are_ cheaper in the long run. More feathers per buck and fewer "bad" feathers per neck. The price is high to start though. Jon Porter

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Well can anyone out there give me a rule of thumb for weighting nymphs? My method in the past has been to first not weight the nymph itself so that it tumbled in the water more naturally.  I added weight (lead shot) about 8 inches up the tipet until JUST before my indicator would studder as the weight and nymph would drag the bottom.  I have always caught fish

[deleted] personally, i do not use my indicators like bobbers, constantly adjusting the weight until the perfect balance is acheived.  i much prefer using 3 to 5 tiny blobs of flourescent plastic indicator material (the sheet peel off types, not the big honking round versions of these…), Cortlands cut in 1/4ths or 1/6ths.  One right at the butt section/line connection and then spaced at 6-10 inch intervals.  this allows me to gauge… 1) depth of bug 2) directionality of leader 3) speed of drift 4) directionality of drift So you add some shot to get down and drown one or two of the indicators, so what …you can still see them under the water and see what attitude your your line is in relative to all the other variables. When you see a trout charge one of your sunken blobs of indicator you can switch to some kind of emerger and sagely pretend that you figured it out. Good fishing, Tim Walker

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Question:

I have done only a little flyfishing.  I just bought a cheapo Berkley flyfishing kit with a 7 1/2 foot rod which came with #6 double taper line.  When I use it, the line slams into the water like a log.  I remember when I was younger, I tried out my Dad’s flyrod which was made of bamboo and used level line.  I could make it lay down on the water real nice.   What is my biggest problem, the rod or the line.  If I switch to a better or different line will that help.  I normally fish on small waters like the Owens River above Bishop, CA. Mark Rubin — This is a test of the signature file.  Had this been a real sigature file, it would contain cute graphics and a catchy phrase.  This is only a test…

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I have done only a little flyfishing.  I just bought a cheapo Berkley flyfishing kit with a 7 1/2 foot rod which came with #6 double taper line.  When I use it, the line slams into the water like a log.

Hi Mark-     You might try casting the line toward the tree line rather than the horizon or worse yet, the water. When the line straightens out, follow the line with your rod tip as the line settles to the water. This should soften the landing. Also you might try some roll casts that direct the fly into the air rather than attempting to nail it to the water ar trying for max distance.   Despite what the pictures in the magazines show, casting is not nearly as important your ability to mend and control line once it’s on the water.Try not casting at all! Spend some time simply drifting your fly downstream and steer it into fishy spots by practicing your mends. You will quickly find that a longer rod is easier to mend with because it keeps you farther from the fish and it picks up more line from the water.    Good luck and soft landings-Ralph

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Also, as a new fly fisherperson, I’ve found that the cast comes off better when it is done "almost willfully slowly." And it is even better yet when I’m not thinking about it. My suggestion would be to slow down a lot and see what happens. Also start with shorter casts and work up. My limited experience has shown that most fishing on streams is done in the 15 to 30 foot range . . . sometimes closer. My friend "Doc" keeps telling me "less line" and it is beginning to sink in. Really the best deal would be to spend even 15 minutes with a competent flyfisher . . . who can tell you what is going wrong. Your casting can improve a million percent in even that short amount of time. Bob Vorel

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First of all if you havent ever been to VanCampens I strongly suggest that you check it out because the Trout there are BIG and beutiful…..(Browns,Rainbows,Brook…..and its in the Del. Water.Gap) Anway I was wondering….I am a novice Fly-Fisherman and I want to know what Flies I should be using between hatches on this and other coldwater streams….and what will attract them even when they are not really that hungry….. Any Info you can give me on Flies that usually hatch up there or Flies that work would be greatly appreciated….. Thanks Matt,

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I have done only a little flyfishing.  I just bought a cheapo Berkley   flyfishing kit with a 7 1/2 foot rod which came with #6 double taper line.    When I use it, the line slams into the water like a log.  Hi Mark- <snip      Despite what the pictures in the magazines show, casting is not nearly  as important your ability to mend and control line once it’s on the  water.Try not casting at all! Spend some time simply drifting your fly  downstream and steer it into fishy spots by practicing your mends.     Good luck and soft landings-Ralph

Good advice indeed, although if I may add a small contribution … Being more a lake angler that the faster water, the Lake Trout of NZ would be long gone, unless they were deep water dwellers, with a noisy line entry such as Mark is describing. I have spent many many hours perfecting my casting (as well as retrieving .. <grin) whilst not actually having been anywhere near the water. I found it invaluable to practice on my own (without annoying fellow anglers, or scaring the fish) in the back yard or local park and to learn to *air* cast ( rather than rip) blind in order to become not only accurate, but to lay out a effecient, long and delicate roll when stalking the elusive NZ Rainbow. Casting practice is also invaluable when sandwiched on both sides by equally feverish anglers, or faced with an annoying and pesky breeze blowing over your right shoulder. Not for the faint hearted, nor inexperienced .. <grin Regards .. Tim.D Wellington, New Zealand.

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Too muchfalse casting is a detrriment to accurcacy. I roll the line foward,pick it up and cast it out with one or at the most two false casts. I slight lifting motion to get the line off the water helps too. Practice or get Joan Wulff’s video or both will help. Call my radio show any Sat. morning from 6-7am eastern time toll free at 1-800-298-8255 and tell us how you are doing. Tight lines, The Fishin’ Zone Steve Sloan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Also, as a new fly fisherperson, I’ve found that the cast comes off better  when it is done "almost willfully slowly." And it is even better yet when  I’m not thinking about it. My suggestion would be to slow down a lot and  see what happens. Also start with shorter casts and work up. My limited  experience has shown that most fishing on streams is done in the 15 to 30  foot range . . . sometimes closer. My friend "Doc" keeps telling me "less  line" and it is beginning to sink in. Really the best deal would be to spend even 15 minutes with a competent  flyfisher . . . who can tell you what is going wrong. Your casting can  improve a million percent in even that short amount of time. Bob Vorel

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Question:

done some diving from a kayak, and have found the following to be true: 1. You must make sure that your fins are secured in the boat. Most sink and will be of no use to you at the bottom of the sea. 2. You often need two hands to put fins on. If you don’t attach yourself to the boat and are still in a situation where it seems advantageous to be with your boat, this can be a problem. Additionally, if you don’t wear the booties you use with your fins, they are probably of little or no use. Fins that fit improperly are painful, at best, and frequently of little use.

A company call Caddis makes fins for float-tube fisherman.  They float and fit any size shoes, booties, etc.  You can probably find them at your local fly fishing store. — -Wayne Trzyna

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1. You must make sure that your fins are secured in the boat. Most sink and will be of no use to you at the bottom of the sea.

A company called Caddis makes fins for float tube fisherman.  The fins float and fit any shoes. booties, etc.  You can probably find them at your local fly fishing store. — -Wayne Trzyna

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I can’t help but think that a pair of fins stowed in your sea kayak would be a tremendous safety feature. Anyone who has used fins can testify that they are a HUGE advantage when swimming. Do any of you sea kayakers carry them?

Doug, I’ve considered this myself at times. I scuba as well as kayak, and have even done some diving from a kayak, and have found the following to be true: 1. You must make sure that your fins are secured in the boat. Most sink and will be of no use to you at the bottom of the sea. 2. You often need two hands to put fins on. If you don’t attach yourself to the boat and are still in a situation where it seems advantageous to be with your boat, this can be a problem. Additionally, if you don’t wear the booties you use with your fins, they are probably of little or no use. Fins that fit improperly are painful, at best, and frequently of little use. 3. Fins are still of little use in a strong current. What they provide in power, they cost in energy. I have seen many divers grow fatigued and give up after kicking under 100 yards against a slow current. They seemed to think the fins gave them enough power to overcome anything and never took the time to learn about currents and how to avoid same. If the distance is great, it is certainly wiser to find the way to cross the current than it is to don fins and swim directly into its teeth. 4. Preparing for cold water immersion is worth more than all the additional equipment you can carry. If you have your warmth, you don’t need to swim great distances or fight currents because you can wait for rescue. This means that you should make someone aware of your activities and location, that you should set a "drop dead" time, after which this person contacts the coast guard or relevant rescue agency, and that you should do your best to stay visible (more on these issues when I post the next article – I’ve just got to remember to bring in the magazine – there is also a discussion on fins in there too, but I don’t remember their conclusions – these comments are wholly my own). Anyway, it seems to me that if you are forced to swim, recognizing currents and avoiding them will be of more benefit. Fins can be a useful backup, but as always, if you are going to use them, practice. If you lose the fins when the boat capsizes or when you are trying to put them on in heavy conditions, you may find yourself in a nasty situation, especially if you are counting on them to get you to shore. Rick

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 Hello, everyone,  although somewhat edited for brevity, the following is a description of an  accident (in Coos bay) and two incidents that (in Kalaloch Beach – part of Olympic National Park in Wash.) we should all take note of. Everything  in quotes is taken directly from the article.

Thanks for posting this.  I think we all need a reminder from time to time. Nature is way bigger than we are…..

Response:

I can’t help but think that a pair of fins stowed in your sea kayak would be a tremendous safety feature. Anyone who has used fins can testify that they are a HUGE advantage when swimming. Do any of you sea kayakers carry them?

Response:

Hello, everyone, although somewhat edited for brevity, the following is a description of an accident (in Coos bay) and two incidents that (in Kalaloch Beach – part of Olympic National Park in Wash.) we should all take note of. Everything in quotes is taken directly from the article. "Eric Konheim, 27, died on June 12, 1991, while kayak surfing alone…. Eric was a skilled kayaker, proud of his ability to roll and to read moving water… In 1987, Eric bought a folding sea kayak and began taking trips, including a 450-mile expedition along the Gulf Coast from Belize to Cancun, Mexico. He also paddled in the Sea of Cortez, the Bahamas, and along the coast of Venezuela. In 1988, he took a river kayaking class in Colorado and bought a white-water kayak. He kayaked many white-water rivers and was a commercial raft guide." … Eric’s companion was feeling ill and decided not to go out with him to do some kayak surfing in his Prijon T-Slalom kayak. Although this was a surfing accident, going in and out of surf is something we sea kayakers MUST do every time we go out, so don’t think ‘this can’t happen to me.’ It CAN. Enough commentary. "After telling Dave he would surf only for a short while, Eric went out alone at about 4 p.m. Dave took a nap and woake about a half hour later. He began looking for Eric and around 5 p.m. found his friend’s kayak floating in the surf. Unable to find Eric, he called for help." Eric was found at 6 p.m. by a Coast Guard Chopper (these guys don’t get enough credit – it’s too bad that they can only pick up the pieces afterward). He was 150 yards off short (an easy swim for someone who swam competitively, you may say, but I swam in college and done some open water swimming in strong currents. Believe me,150 yards can be a very LONG swim!). He was wearing: "a helmet, a PFD with a whistle and knife attached, a neoprene spray skirt, a pull-over pile jacket, and a long sleeve paddle jacket. Eric’s kayak and paddle were found in good condition. He had not worn either his wet suit or his dry suit, though he had both with him in his van. Eric knew about hypothermia: he had had EMT training and river guide training." … "The official cause of death listed on the medical examiner’s report is "asphyxia by drowning, immersion hyperthermia." This is reasonable considering the water temperature was 50-53 degrees Fahrenheit, and Eric was tall and thin and was not wearing much thermal protection. HIs core temper- ature was 73 degrees." The author points out that Eric (though wearing a helmet) may have been knocked out by his paddle. "I once broke the aluminum shaft of a sturdy white-water paddle while getting pitch poled…The water was deep, the  paddle hit nothing but water. The smooth curve left in the broken shaft proved there were no defects in the paddle. An engineering analysis later showed it took more than 200 pounts of force to break that paddle. If it had hit my head with that force… who knows?" In any case, this article brings out some interesting and notable points. If you do go out alone, please take all the cold water immersion protection you can. It’s really easy to cool off by doing a roll, but it just ain’t so easy to get warm. The other two stories are about currents. Both kayakers found themselves in the water 75 or more yards from shore. The first was wearing "a 1/8 inch farmer john-style wet suit, a PFD, neoprene spray skirt, helmet, and watersport sandals….I began swimming for the beach with both hands on the stern of my boat. After a while, it appeared my effort had been wasted; I was no closer to the beach." He lost a float bag from the kayak and it did a Cleopatra’s Needle when it filled, so he finally abandoned the boat. He found the surf conditions too rough for reentry. He tried to use his paddle to propel himself, but gave up after some fruitless effort. By this time, 40 minutes has passed and he is still no closer to shore. He believes that he didn’t realize he was caught in a rip current because his thinking was impaired by cold water shock. Finally, he began swimming cross-current and made his way back to shore once he exited the current. The good news is that he had been seen by a "couple on the beach," who called for help. The coast guard had responded, but he managed to get out before they arrived. Same story, same place, different person. Bill "had once played in a rip current…and he had been out in ocean swells…but this was his first time kayaking in ocean surf. Bill didn’t have a roll, but the though he could perform a self rescue or swim to shore if he capsized. Bill is a strong, formerly competitive, swimmer with SCUBA diving experience. He is very com- fortable in and around the water. His kayak had front and rear bulkheads…He wore a 1/4-inch-thick, full wet suit" (his scuba suit) "polypropylene long underwear, neoprene tooties, a neoprene diver’s hood, a paddling jacket, and a PFD." He also had a bilge pump, paddle float, and some flares. Bill was separated from his kayak by the heavy surf (8 foot breakers). "He tried in vain to re-enter the kayak using a paddle-float outrigger…He could only get half way in before another wave would hit and knock him over. After 10 minutes of unsuccessful self-rescue attempts, he realized he and his kayak were drifing dangerously close to the rocks." He fired a flare and watched a beachcombers pointed at the pretty color and resumed their activities. I guess flares only work if people understand what they are for. Bill finally decided it was time to part ways with his kayak. "He retrieved his paddle and the paddle float and began swimming toward shore with the paddle float under his chest. After about a half hour of swimming, he realized he was losing ground." See, not even we good swimmers can out swim a current. "He was about 300 yards from shore and quickly became exhausted…He had one thing in his favor: his 1/4-inch-thick wetsuit was keeping him warm." He "began body surfing toward shore for all he was worth. While swimming a crawl stroke with the paddle was unproductive, by holding it against his chest, he discovered the waves would push it and carry him toward shore. (An experienced paddler told me that he has used his paddle to advantage while swimming in surf, but unlike others I’ve talked to, he uses the paddle while swimming backstroke. His technique is similar to back paddling a kayak). Bill found he could steer across the waves by shifting the paddle in his hands. Using the paddle this way let him angle away from the rocks." "Lessons Learned: While the first paddler became chilled and possibly hypo- thermic in his 1/8 inch farmer john wet suit, Bill’s 1/4 inch thick full suit, booties, and hood actually kept him too warm! Soon after reaching shore, Bill removed some of his wet-suit clothing to cool off. In the water, Bill worried only about exhaustion and the rocks… In my experience, 1/8 inch thick Farmer John wet suits are not adequate protection for prolonged immersion in 50- degree water." This was all printed without permission, however, I feel safety is more important than copywrites. Everyone who goes kayaking should learn to roll. These two stories should let you know just how helpless a kayaker is in 50 degree water when currents are strong. The very gear you must wear to protect you from becoming hypothermic will make you a very weak (but bouyant) swimmer. You must use other methods of getting in and out of heavy conditions. If you must, leave the boat. It does provide a lot of bouyancy, but if you don’t have more than an hour of cold water protection, you’ve got to get going quickly. Don’t waste time waiting for help, you are your own best defense against accident. Well enough diatribe. If you wish, I will post other safety articles from Sea Kayaker when it comes out. Rick

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