Question:

Tim – I got a 9 ft #4 Stealth and love it.  I compare it to the original Scott in the same size (also have the 8′6", 8′ and 6′10" in graphite, and the 7′6" in glass), as well as Fenwick Iron Feather, BoronX and AVF in same size, as well as assorted others. Very fluid action at a variety of fishing distances, good tracking, holds fish well. tl les

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I see in Fly Fisherman February 2002 that this rod comes with two tips instead of a lifetime warranty…hmmm…not sure what to make of that.   Padishar Creel — Wishing the Master of fly fishing, Mr. LaFontaine the best of luck in his battle with ALS…

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Any one get one of these Gary Lafontaine stealth rods..if so what did ya think..just curious, as usual. Thanks — Tim Apple

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Question:

Great story, Mu, thanks for sharing it. Bob

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I be bringing up the rear here, but nonetheless, our best wishes to all roffians for a great Thanksgiving.  It has been a fun year in here and I’m just glad to be a small part of it.  I hope by next Thanksgiving to be able to say that I finally got to meet some of you at a clave somewhere. Best wishes, Frank and Daisy Church Elkhart, IN USAF RETIRED

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Thanksgiving eve, I turned in a miserable draft of my dissertation after many successive late nights, was a substitute teacher for my boss in a senior level physics course (which I totally botched since I was only half awake anyway) since he left for early vacation, then drove up north with a friend who had recently returned to town to visit his family for the holidays and a kid from Utah whose guitar playing in the back seat made for some great travel music. We got into the motel around 1 AM and the digital sign out front read -5 C.  A bit colder than we were expecting but we were going to fish.  We woke up about 1.5 hours later than we had planned but finally ended up at the stream.  Tom only recently began fly fishing and owns a 5 wt rod so I told him to bring his spinning setup.  Utah had no equipment of any kind so I lent him a spinning rod and some leaky neoprenes.  He’d be fine as long as he didn’t wade deeper than the crotch. Neither had been to this river before.  They were immediately enchanted by it.  We were hoping for steelhead, but actually found lots of salmon and saw only one steelhead scooting upstream.  Oh well, I suppose it’s going to be salmon then. I had tied on a weighted black stonefly at the car. I gave them each a homemade spinner and they were on their way.  Most of the time I scouted ahead and told them where to cast. They were pleased to be there in the presence of large fish.  Well it went on like this for a while and I could see they were not quite used to seeing the angles, as it were, and I had to tell them where to position themselves for the best possible presentation.  They got the hang of it and I was typically 10-20 yards downstream, looking for more fish while they were happy in their unsuccessful attempts to lure the chinooks to the hook.  Within an hour, it warmed up enough so that ice was no longer forming on their guides.  I wasn;t doing much fishing and my guides were ice free but there was ice on my fly line.  At first I thought it was some inexplicable crud:  maybe the putty indicator I sometimes use; maybe the line had come into contact with some sort of solvent; it was hard to tell; the ice was very thin and my fingers numb. At one point when my buds were thoroughly engrossed with a particular pod of salmon I tied on a dropper from the bend of the stonefly and attached a chartreuse bunny strip with a purple crystal chenille body.  A lone male was cruising just a short distance away and I got a solid hookup.  At first sight in the water it looked like a jack (confused immature male that somehow swam upstream a bit too early in life – sounds like someone you know?). My friends quickly caught up and were quite excited.  Tom got his first experience at netting a salmon.  We took a pic of a very handsomely colored cock fish.  It was actually a mature fish, small for a chinook, about 12 lbs.  But this is a small river which receives no fish plantings and it looked about average size among the fish we saw that day. Each of my friends at one point had a fish on but both lost them. Well, we had to head home soon after that, as Tom’s relatives like to have a mid-afternoon Thanksgiving dinner.  But it was a great way to spend Thanksgiving morning.  Later I had turkey at my pastor’s place just before hopping onto a plane to Paris where I devoured all manner of sea creatures raw and cooked.  It’s amazing how animals that eat the detritus off the ocean floor can taste so good. Mu Young Lee Ann Arbor, MI  USA

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Thanks Walt, and the same to you! What fly do you use for a large 8 point buck? i just tie on a pink deer tail….. with a bit of scent  of course <g –ww

That just might look a little spiffy coming out of that barrel!

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Stan Gula writes: (sentimental stuff snipped, sniffff) I look forward to fishing and swapping lies with you all again. Just remember to bring some more of that Herracarrera Annandjoe stuff.  <g

Y’all stole a Porsche from Ann and Joe?  Maybe next time, try some Herradura Anejo….I guess that’s what it was – hopefully, you’re not asking him to bring some more "cara de hereje (like) anoche"…<G. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Dave

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Happy Thanksgiving to ROFF. May your lines continue to be tight and your wit continue to be sharp. — Citizen Fisherman …really making an effort to play nice…

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your fiiend in paradise wayno

i love typos <g –ww

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Same to ya Walt, and to all my roffian partners in crime, happy turkey day and let’s count our blessings. From the Church family…. Frank, Daisy and Guts the Cat, who not quite in the spirit of Thanksgiving, sends a big wet raspberry to Kipper the hound. )

Kipper the hound responds ARRRROOOOOO, which loosely translated means C’mon over to Illinois sometime Guts, we’ll do lunch. Happy Thanksgiving to all ROFFians from Ken, Kristine and Kipper. — Ken Fortenberry

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and tight lines to all this weekend! –Walt

Ditto!! Happy Thanksgiving to all.  May your biggest concerns all weekend be the seating charts for all your friends and family at the dinner table! Best wishes to all. Zippy Who has plenty to be thankful for but still wonders why he has had to sit at the small table with the "young ones" for 38 years in a row?

Response:

Stan Gula writes: (sentimental stuff snipped, sniffff) I look forward to fishing and swapping lies with you all again. Just remember to bring some more of that Herracarrera Annandjoe stuff. <g Dave

Damn, I was just drinking that crap in a mexican restaurant/bar in San Diego.  Thanks a ton for introducing me to that, Stan.   Scooter (Saving up for a new liver)

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wayno writes: yes, indeed, waldo, the same to you.    and the same to all my brothers and sisters in cyberspace. best wishes for a moist turkey, warm hearts, and long life from your fiiend in paradise wayno

yes what he said.  and go fishing if you can. dave

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Stan Gula writes:

(sentimental stuff snipped, sniffff) I look forward to fishing and swapping lies with you all again.

Just remember to bring some more of that Herracarrera Annandjoe stuff.  <g Dave

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and tight lines to all this weekend! –Walt Thanks Walt, and the same to you! What fly do you use for a large 8 point buck? Steve Who is fishing with his 30-06 this weekend. Talk about deer hunting – just had a co-worker regal me about his ten point buck and missing a 14 when his arrow ricocheted off of a piece of unseen barbed wire.  May you have better luck. Happy turkey day to our southern neighbours – be well.

Thanks Petah!

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happy thanksgiving to all…me and the family are off to the mountains for a few days… thanx to folks on the list that helped convence me to get up to the clave in yellowstone this last summer.. i had a great time…beautiful park..nice fishing…looking foward to the upcomming year and the many fishing opportunities it may bring  …… richard / colorado

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and tight lines to all this weekend! –Walt

And same to you and the rest of ROFF. TC, R

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Same to ya Walt, and to all my roffian partners in crime, happy turkey day and let’s count our blessings. From the Church family…. Frank, Daisy and Guts the Cat, who not quite in the spirit of Thanksgiving, sends a big wet raspberry to Kipper the hound. )

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and tight lines to all this weekend! –Walt Thanks Walt, and the same to you! What fly do you use for a large 8 point buck? Steve Who is fishing with his 30-06 this weekend.

_____  A Muddler Hollow Point. Gee Gee

Response:

Thanks Walt, and the same to you! What fly do you use for a large 8 point buck?

i just tie on a pink deer tail….. with a bit of scent  of course <g –ww

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and tight lines to all this weekend! –Walt

        yes, indeed, waldo, the same to you.         and the same to all my brothers and sisters in cyberspace. best wishes for a moist turkey, warm hearts, and long life from your fiiend in paradise wayno

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… What fly do you use for a large 8 point buck? i just tie on a pink deer tail….. with a bit of scent  of course <g

No wonder those waders stunk to high heaven. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

and tight lines to all this weekend! –Walt Thanks Walt, and the same to you! What fly do you use for a large 8 point buck? Steve Who is fishing with his 30-06 this weekend.

Talk about deer hunting – just had a co-worker regal me about his ten point buck and missing a 14 when his arrow ricocheted off of a piece of unseen barbed wire.  May you have better luck. Happy turkey day to our southern neighbours – be well. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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and tight lines to all this weekend! –Walt

And thanks to all the clavesters I got to meet this year: Walt, Tom Brown, Dave LaCourse, Dave Tatosian, George Adams, Frank Reid, Bob Rose, Gary McMeekin, Paul Goodwin, Tom Littleton, Handyman Mike, Scooter, Peter Charles, Mike Makela, Indian Joe, Zimbo, Jeff Miller, DavePA, JeffC, John Russell, Asadi, Natty, Vince Norris, Frank Church, Dave Price, Dave Bottom and the others whose names I’m forgetting at the moment.  Well met gentlemen, and I look forward to fishing and swapping lies with you all again. Loosen your belts and have another slice of pie for me! –Stan

Response:

and tight lines to all this weekend! –Walt

Thanks Walt, and the same to you! What fly do you use for a large 8 point buck? Steve Who is fishing with his 30-06 this weekend.

Response:

If I were to say, "Walt?  I hope you don’t over eat on Thanksgiving," would be true. The word, "Happy," when it comes to you is a bit mute because you’re usually always happy visiting Roff.  Does one wish you a "Happier Thanksgiving?"  No.  I think a fond thought from me, to you is that your waders don’t leak on Thanksgiving Day is enough to give thanks for, that I thought of that for you and the wish came true.  How are you not to know? Wishes are as fleeting as the tides of Roff.  They come, they go. In your case I’m going to make an exception.  I hope one of these wishes sticks and if you have one left over . . . send it to Harrison. Finally, there is the infamous Tom Brown.  What can Gladys and I say except that we hope you’re not having left over Camel, Tom?  You can’t have any ham but your free to choke the turkey.  Remember the dressing goes inside the bird this year. Eat well North Carolina and give thanks the Indian Joe lusted for your daughters and not for your scalps. Take care North Carolina, George

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and tight lines to all this weekend! –Walt — Wilson Creek Outfitters, Ezflyfish.com, Inc. 115 East Union Street; Morganton, NC 28655 http://www.ezflyfish.com

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and tight lines to all this weekend!

Eat sh errrr turkey. .  . . ~  Happy Turkey Day to you too Walt. — Warren www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

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.  . . ~

is that a worm hangin’ outta yer mouth? –walt <g

Response:

.  . . ~ is that a worm hangin’ outta yer mouth?

Damn straight.  It’s all about the Mescal baby!  The worm is the best part because it proves that you did a good job by just getting to the bottom and are drunk enough to actually eat the worm.  Mission accomplished I’ll be fishing on Turkey Day unless my friend and I do the bachelor’s Thanksgiving thing, join forces and cook up a turkey.  Hell, we will either hunt or fish as well as cook up the turkey hopefully.  If all else fails, it is a Hungry Man Turkey Dinner and a day of fishing for me. Ahhhh yes, the virtues of bachelorhood and no family in the area.  Truly something to give thanks for while out fishing or hunting.  I am really going to enjoy the break from school too.  And if things couldn’t get any better, I have my daughter Friday through Monday and get her today too. <g — Warren www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

Response:

Question:

Good Info snipped Montana is an example of a state that finally got around to doing it in the early/mid 1980’s, and most of us now know it as the Montana Stream Access Law. Actually early 70’s. It is being challenged in court right now by some big ranchers in the Ruby.

Is Ted Turner one of them? I understand his ranch is on the Ruby. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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I’m not sure. The ranch owners are "non-native Montanans" with big $$, and, apparently, being instigated and led by a guy named Reid Rosenthal, who (if I have the story correct) has been trying to get it turned to private access. He’s gone as far as stirring up the Madison county commissioners, saying that a (any?) bridge over the Ruby, even though the road on both sides is public county road, is NOT public and therefore there is no legal access to the river at that point. As I understand it, he was ’shot down in flames’. My explanation listed above is a ’simplistic’ overview of the situation. I’m sure there are other aspects I don’t know. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm 406-626-4022

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good Info snipped Montana is an example of a state that finally got around to doing it in the early/mid 1980’s, and most of us now know it as the Montana Stream Access Law. Actually early 70’s. It is being challenged in court right now by some big ranchers in the Ruby. Is Ted Turner one of them? I understand his ranch is on the Ruby. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

early/mid 1980’s … Montana Stream Access Law. Actually early 70’s. It is being challenged in court right now by some big ranchers in the Ruby.

As explained to me, a landowner/angler conflict on one of the Yellowstone River spring creeks and a landowner/raft conflict on another river (NW section of Montana) (the landowner drove his rig over a group’s beached raft) during the 70’s/80’s motivated passage of Montana’s stream access law sometime in the early 1980’s. I attended Montana State from 81-88, and recall when the law went into effect as many of the streams I had been fishing with permission the prior year or two were suddendly closed in protest.  Signs reading "don’t bother to ask, NO" popped up all over Montana. My roommates and I simply filled our vests with Stream Access brochures and hit the road.  We were shot over (30-06) on Bridger Creek NW of Bozeman before the landowner called the Sheriff and tried to have us arrested. The event caused the Sheriff’s department to met with other state agencies and get clarity on the finer points of the new law.  Three days after the event, a deputy offered to fish Bridger Creek by the rules to see if he would he harassed, and Fish & Game wanted feedback on whether we were harassed again, since they were willing to take action against the landowner. Key point was that we climbed over the landowners barbed wire fence at the point where it was attached to the bridge, but it is illegal for landowners to attach their fences to public structures (the bridge) and it is illegal for landowners to deny passage over public right-of-ways, and most bridges have a substantial right-of-way area just up and downstream of the road. The state generally does not enforce the rules as a matter of convenience to the landowner, but landowners can’t use such configurations to keep the public out. Several weeks later, we accessed another portion of Bridger Creek from the road (public access), but immediately had to hike out of the flood plain to get around a man-made diversion dam. The landowner saw us and a toe-to-toe threat-fest began.  Ultimately it was his wife yelling from the pickup "let’s go honey" that broke up the moment, but the technical point here was that man-made structures *in* the stream cannot be used to deny passage up and down a stream, and the public is entitled to portage around such structures within reason, even if it means going outside the high water mark. Then there was Dry Creek… Then there was Sixteen Mile Creek… Though I believe in the public access, and am willing to force the issue, I have always tried to ask anyway, as a courtesy.  They can get a sense of who I am, let me know of any issues they are having with other anglers, and hopefully both of us can relax. Thomas Gilg

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Well, if the price is right, maybe we can talk. Wolfgang tell Mike I said hello

Go visit him yourself. You’ve got time to travel. Bog, man, you’re not even a hundred yet. "Goddamn, well I declare! Have you seen the like?Their walls are  built from  cannonballs; their motto is ‘don’t tread on me’" -Uncle Jerry

Response:

It’s amazing to me how the brain remembers things. The controversy and debate over stream access went on for a long time and was not passed till 1985. I had it in my head it was way before that. Oh, well… when you’re wrong, you’re wrong. And I was beginning to guide then too. I think I need to upgrade and add more ‘memory’ !! — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm 406-626-4022

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – early/mid 1980’s … Montana Stream Access Law. Actually early 70’s. It is being challenged in court right now by some big ranchers in the Ruby. As explained to me, a landowner/angler conflict on one of the Yellowstone River spring creeks and a landowner/raft conflict on another river (NW section of Montana) (the landowner drove his rig over a group’s beached raft) during the 70’s/80’s motivated passage of Montana’s stream access law sometime in the early 1980’s. I attended Montana State from 81-88, and recall when the law went into effect as many of the streams I had been fishing with permission the prior year or two were suddendly closed in protest.  Signs reading "don’t bother to ask, NO" popped up all over Montana. My roommates and I simply filled our vests with Stream Access brochures and hit the road.  We were shot over (30-06) on Bridger Creek NW of Bozeman before the landowner called the Sheriff and tried to have us arrested. The event caused the Sheriff’s department to met with other state agencies and get clarity on the finer points of the new law.  Three days after the event, a deputy offered to fish Bridger Creek by the rules to see if he would he harassed, and Fish & Game wanted feedback on whether we were harassed again, since they were willing to take action against the landowner. Key point was that we climbed over the landowners barbed wire fence at the point where it was attached to the bridge, but it is illegal for landowners to attach their fences to public structures (the bridge) and it is illegal for landowners to deny passage over public right-of-ways, and most bridges have a substantial right-of-way area just up and downstream of the road. The state generally does not enforce the rules as a matter of convenience to the landowner, but landowners can’t use such configurations to keep the public out. Several weeks later, we accessed another portion of Bridger Creek from the road (public access), but immediately had to hike out of the flood plain to get around a man-made diversion dam. The landowner saw us and a toe-to-toe threat-fest began.  Ultimately it was his wife yelling from the pickup "let’s go honey" that broke up the moment, but the technical point here was that man-made structures *in* the stream cannot be used to deny passage up and down a stream, and the public is entitled to portage around such structures within reason, even if it means going outside the high water mark. Then there was Dry Creek… Then there was Sixteen Mile Creek… Though I believe in the public access, and am willing to force the issue, I have always tried to ask anyway, as a courtesy.  They can get a sense of who I am, let me know of any issues they are having with other anglers, and hopefully both of us can relax. Thomas Gilg

Response:

Oregon also has some active private angling clubs that have acquired access rights.  I forget the name of the one group (bait/spinners/flies), but they have locked down several prime sections of Oregon’s coastal streams.

I live in PDX. Couldja track down the names of those clubs? Thanks!

Response:

<snipped Steve, No the problem is that I have a right to fish that river, because there is a publicly available entrance to that river.  I am not trespassing on the land; I am traveling along the riverbank between the high and low water mark. There was never any No Trespassing Signs, No Hunting, and No Fishing until Troubums2 made the arrangements with the landowner. bc. — Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. -Benjamin Franklin

Response:

United States Penitentiary, Atlanta, Georgia; 1974.

My arrest/control class, Lakewood, CO, 1999. And then again last week when my pepper canister sprung a leak and I got soaked with 90 minutes left in my shift. I carry my OC on the front, and some of it soaked through my pants and hit, um, some sensitive skin. That SUCKED!!!!! It was worse than drinking Coors while listening to teenage boy bands and eating day-old Original Hamburger Stand chili dogs! Mike, who prefers to solve problems with bullshit instead of pepper spray-some of it might splash back on me. "Goddamn, well I declare! Have you seen the like?Their walls are  built from  cannonballs; their motto is ‘don’t tread on me’" -Uncle Jerry

Response:

….Mike….prefers to solve problems with bullshit instead of pepper spray-some of it might splash back on me.

Considering some of the bullshit that sprays back on one here I suggest you might not want to be too hasty about that decision.    :) Wolfgang SPLAT!

Response:

blackcat, Why don’t you post the name of the fly shop as "off limits" to repay them? Ernie "blackcat" wrote Willi, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is a section on the Upper Provo in Utah above Jordanelle Reservoir that has signs posted No Trespassing, No Fishing, and No Hunting. One of the local fly shops made a deal with the landowner and they posted all those signs last year. It’s too bad.  It is a really nice stretch of water to fish and I’ll miss it. bc.

Response:

… "private" areas for a local shop … wondering if this is a trend around the Country or is it a Colorado thing?

In recent years, several fly shops in Oregon have aggressively gone after special arrangements with land owners.  In most of the cases I’m aware of, the landowner has historically permitted limited access but is stressed/tired of it and is generally happy when someone else offers to control the access in exchange for some money. In addition to fly shops, Oregon also has some active private angling clubs that have acquired access rights.  I forget the name of the one group (bait/spinners/flies), but they have locked down several prime sections of Oregon’s coastal streams. I am also aware of rural landowners whos cattle and/or timber based income has dropped, so they are turning to selling hunting and fishing access. The lower section of one stream I regularily fish has an awsome run of chinook salmon, and ~25 individuals from mostly California (I only know of one from Oregon) have been paying $25,000 per year for exclusive access.  Though $1,000 isn’t for a regular weekend warrior, for the Joe who gets out 1-week a year and wants to be assured of a wiggle on the end of their rod, not unreasonable. Thomas Gilg – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

I’ve paid more than that to have my rod wiggled for a week……john

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … "private" areas for a local shop … wondering if this is a trend around the Country or is it a Colorado thing? In recent years, several fly shops in Oregon have aggressively gone after special arrangements with land owners.  In most of the cases I’m aware of, the landowner has historically permitted limited access but is stressed/tired of it and is generally happy when someone else offers to control the access in exchange for some money. In addition to fly shops, Oregon also has some active private angling clubs that have acquired access rights.  I forget the name of the one group (bait/spinners/flies), but they have locked down several prime sections of Oregon’s coastal streams. I am also aware of rural landowners whos cattle and/or timber based income has dropped, so they are turning to selling hunting and fishing access. The lower section of one stream I regularily fish has an awsome run of chinook salmon, and ~25 individuals from mostly California (I only know of one from Oregon) have been paying $25,000 per year for exclusive access.  Though $1,000 isn’t for a regular weekend warrior, for the Joe who gets out 1-week a year and wants to be assured of a wiggle on the end of their rod, not unreasonable. Thomas Gilg

Response:

We have a little different deal going on here in Texas which has always had very little public water other than hugh lakes. The Great Texas Bass Club has about a hundred tanks on private ranches and farms leased which members can use for prices varying from 20 to 40 bucks for from 1/2 to full day. This was water that was never available to us before. There is a hell of a lot of good fishing on these places. On most of these places a float tube or small boat with an electric motor or canoe does just great. This could wrok well in other areas and is one of those things where everyone wins. Big Dale

Response:

<snipped There is plenty of land posted No Hunting – No Fishing.  This section though has the Utah State Special Fishing Regulations Signs up along that section and it was only recently that the No Hunting, No Fishing, No Trespassing signs were posted. It has been almost a year since I was last up there. And in Utah, the land owners own the river bottom, so even wading it, you are breaking the law. bc. — Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. -Benjamin Franklin

Response:

<snipped Ernie, If I knew with out a doubt that it was the fly shop everyone has told me it was, I would post their name.  I just sent them an email asking them if they were the shop that guided that stretch of the Provo.   bc. — Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. -Benjamin Franklin

Response:

Hmmm. So the gist of Ernie’s (and, by inference, your) opinion is that the fly shop should be castigated for the way they use that (leased) private land, correct? I don’t quite agree with that, nor do I completely disagree. But the "problem" is really that the land is private in the first place, isn’t it? –Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ernie, If I knew with out a doubt that it was the fly shop everyone has told me it was, I would post their name.  I just sent them an email asking them if they were the shop that guided that stretch of the Provo.

Response:

Hmmm. So the gist of Ernie’s (and, by inference, your) opinion is that the fly shop should be castigated for the way they use that (leased) private land, correct? I don’t quite agree with that, nor do I completely disagree. But the "problem" is really that the land is private in the first place, isn’t it?

Our perceptions are greatly influenced by the familiar.  Having grown up with public ownership of riparian rights in Wisconsin, I find the notion that an individual, a club, or a corporation can own a stream bottom or even the right to float on top of it to be bizarre.  Of course, my feelings on this issue are also colored by ambivalence concerning the private ownership of land in general, and that fact that I have never owned any real estate myself.  And then the whole thing is further complicated by the old state’s rights versus central governmental control conundrum.  It’s easy enough to be skeptical about the wisdom, let alone the effectiveness, of federal control of resources nation wide, but I sometimes think that a single set of coherent policies would at least be easier to grapple with than the bewildering array of laws and rationales we have to contend with today. Wolfgang in the market for an underutilized planet

Response:

Wolfgang in the market for an underutilized planet

tanstaafl wulfie! i’ve got 22 adjoining lunacres fer sale. kinda dry fishin’ but gahdangitall, you can double haul 600′ !!! <g waldo, have space suit, will travel.

Response:

Well, if the price is right, maybe we can talk. Wolfgang tell Mike I said hello

Now there’s a candidate I could support… — Charlie…

Response:

Well, if the price is right, maybe we can talk. Wolfgang tell Mike I said hello

have yer guy call my guy to set up lunch. uhmmmm, mikey doesn’t "live" here anymore. afterall, the moon is a harsh mistress. waldo

Response:

And in Utah, the land owners own the river bottom, so even wading it, you are breaking the law.

Really? Other than some of the early US states back east, most/all of the states from the mid-west to the west were created by the federal government and given land "in the public trust". The state’s trustees (i.e. governor and legislature) were then obligated to, among other things, determine which waters had commercial uses (includes navigation, but is not limited to), and as a state *maintain public access* to such waters. Very few states followed through on this matter at statehood time, and those states that still have not done it are still obligated to. While states can drag their feet on this obligation, they cannot bypass it and relinquish public access potentials to private concerns. I was told that Washington is an example of a state that did their required homework at statehood time. Montana is an example of a state that finally got around to doing it in the early/mid 1980’s, and most of us now know it as the Montana Stream Access Law. Oregon is an example of a state that is finally getting around to it, with the Division of State Land accepting petitions from the public on what rivers to study first.  Within all of Oregon, only 13 river segments (e.g. Willamette up to Harrisburg, but not above) had been previously studied and formally declared public by the state of Oregon. The Association of Northwest Steelheaders has been leading a coalition of angling groups, including the Oregon Council of the FFF, to keep the ball rolling and to fight bills in the state legislature which have attempted to privatize many waters in the state rather than have to defeat them in a more costly fashion by going to court and bringing up the rock-solid public trust obligation. Regarding landowners "owning the river bottom".  Many older land deeds/titles may claim ownership of the bed and bank, but there is no legal standing for the deeds/titles to make such claims. Most title companies will not write new titles that claim bed/bank ownership since they know it is a false claim.  I know of realtors that likewise know the falsehood of anyone claiming bed/bank ownership, but most realtors do not have the technical/legal expertise or patience to correct the problem. Having said that, let me warn you that many landowners are sticking to the bed/bank claims and are quite willing to enforce it in any means they see fit, and I’ve been in several toe-to-toe battles with landowners where the far wiser option was to move on rather than risk a shotgun blast. A year or two ago in Oregon, and landowner had a bank fisherman arrested for violating his bed/bank ownership. As soon as the trepassing charge started heading to court, the landowner dropped the charges, most likely because he realized that the courts would overturn his claim and the river segment he was on would be studied by the state and no doubt be formally declared public. Thomas Gilg

Response:

Good Info snipped Montana is an example of a state that finally got around to doing it in the early/mid 1980’s, and most of us now know it as the Montana Stream Access Law.

Actually early 70’s. It is being challenged in court right now by some big ranchers in the Ruby. More good stuff snipped Regarding landowners "owning the river bottom".  Many older land deeds/titles may claim ownership of the bed and bank, but there is no legal standing for the deeds/titles to make such claims. Most title companies will not write new titles that claim bed/bank ownership since they know it is a false claim. I know of realtors that likewise know the falsehood of anyone claiming bed/bank ownership, but most realtors do not have the technical/legal expertise or patience to correct the problem.

Yes, to a point. I’ve seen it here where deeds are written and plats drawn and recorded that show a private property boundary to the LOW water mark of a river (or lake) yet the state says that anything between the HIGH water mark is ‘public domain’. Go figure. I also know of some folks who pay property taxes on a large river bed of which they own both sides. Sometimes, it is so confusing, you don’t know who to believe. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm 406-626-4022

Response:

For more details on stream access, read:      http://www.oregonlive.com/news/99/03/st032107.html Note the comment regarding 38 other states. Thomas Gilg

Response:

I was talking with Charlie W. the other day about the difficulties in getting access to fishing on private land or access to go through private land to get to public areas to fish. Not that long ago, 10 years or so, it was fairly easy to get access from ranchers as long you approached them in a courteous manner. Charlie’s answer was that this is because the fly shops have approached every rancher with river, stream and lake access and offered them money for a lease. The result is that the ranchers that used to allow fishing access, still do but only to people paying money to the fly shops. At the time, I wasn’t too sure of his explanation. However, as I thought more about it, I realized that a number of areas where I used to get access are now "private" areas for a local shop. I know there are other factors contributing to this, but I was wondering if this is a trend around the Country or is it a Colorado thing? Willi

Response:

It is a trend around the world. As soon as a demand for such areas becomes apparent, and the owners realise that there is money to be made from them, commercial enterprise moves in. "Exclusivity" in this case is a valuable commodity. Also, many owners have been disappointed or upset, by people who have misused their generosity in the past, which does not make them kindly predisposed to allowing others access. This unfortunate trend may be observed practically everywhere. It appears to be one of the  symptoms of capitalist society in general.  Recreation is rapidly becoming one of the greatest single earning "industries", and the effects of this will inevitably continue with probably very far-reaching results. TL MC — "If you have tried everything you know, and nothing works, then perhaps it is time to accept that you don

Question:

I am going to try my hand at some Salmon fishing this year.  A friend of mine recommended that I get some running line for my reel.  He says that you can split in in half and make two running lines.  Questions:  1) Is this true?  2) What are the properties of a running line and what makes it different than other conventional fly lines? 3) Reputable brands?  Thank you in advance.

Response:

I am going to try my hand at some Salmon fishing this year.  A friend of mine recommended that I get some running line for my reel.  He says that you can split in in half and make two running lines.  Questions:  1) Is this true?  2) What are the properties of a running line and what makes it different than other conventional fly lines? 3) Reputable brands?  Thank you

Your friend may have meant to recommend backing, e.g. 30 lb. test braided dacron, to fill up the fly reel under the fly line.  This is needed for strong fish like salmon which may take out more line than the 30-35 yards of the fly line. "Running line" used to be sold by Scientific Anglers (perhaps still is) and was a thin level fly line (0.029 inches diameter) used by people who liked to splice their own tapers, e.g. with a shooting head.  (British reservoir anglers used to use heavy mono for both backing and running line.  Perhaps 20 years ago British mono curled less than American.) — |        Carlsbad Springs, Ottawa, Canada        |

Response:

Question:

Unfortunately there is no cure to this illness and it has been known to have such side effects including, but not limited to, poverty, divorce, sleeplessness, and wandering from trout stream to trout stream.

Warren, I read about your basement apartment and it saddened me.  I hope you’re okay and that you’re not left in a financial hole for the rest of your life. My brother can’t seem to lift his head above water and it’s been 7 years now.  He had to move back in with mom and dad because he can’t financially support himself after he pays everything else.  I just wish situations like this were more fair for everyone instead of sticking it to the guy.  I’d like to see my brother able to move into his own place and become independent, but as soon as he gets a little better job or a pay raze, they ask for more money.  He has two jobs and has to work so many hours that he doesn’t even have time to see his kid.  Now, is that fair?  It’s as though he has become a financial slave, allowing others to create a new life and frolic in the sun while he works his ass off. — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

Response:

Vern, not to worry.  Maybe I can make tons of money as a trout bum down the road.  Hell, hopefully I can get my degree and then get into law school. That’s my goal anyway.  I hear them lawyers invented copper wire by fighting over a penny and can make their own schedules which allows them plenty of time to fish.  In the meantime I’ll just have to make due. Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

…but i will be the first to say i have alot of practicing to do,,and alot to learn… like should you fish upstream, or down, or across, or look for pockets?  time of the day that is best? and so on!!!  well thanks for listing,, and everyone elses question that i am reading here in this forum… thanks.. Alex

Well, you’re getting ready to go on a trip soon, right?  Why don’t you tell us more about what the conditions are like there, where it is, what kind of water, what kind of fish, etc. Regards, Jeff

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …but i will be the first to say i have alot of practicing to do,,and alot to learn… like should you fish upstream, or down, or across, or look for pockets?  time of the day that is best? and so on!!!  well thanks for listing,, and everyone elses question that i am reading here in this forum… thanks.. Alex Well, you’re getting ready to go on a trip soon, right?  Why don’t you tell us more about what the conditions are like there, where it is, what kind of water, what kind of fish, etc. Regards, Jeff

hello jeff, well i am not sure of the place that i am going, since i have never been there before. But for what i do know and for what i have researched, is.. Pocono region in PA, there is the Lehigh River, a large river i assume, maybe some fast currents, due to the fact that they have white water rafting. Stocked for trout, rainbows, browns, brooks, steelheads, as far as other fish i am unsure, sure theres alot though,,, water conditions are varied at the moment,, water is moving quite fast although the levels are declining… other than that i am still in the process of the research…casting question,,,when there is a loud "snap" , is that good or bad? do you know of any internet videos that show the ideal casting movement and or presentations?  also, what should the ideal lenghts of the leader and the tippit be? Can you attach aweight forward line to a balanced line..etc…. last but not least(for today )  is it ok to have all of the fly line out and getting into the backing during casting, or is that mostly for when you have a fish on the run?  thanks. alex * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

will be the first to say i have alot of practicing to do,,and alot to learn… like should you fish upstream, or down, or across, or look for pockets?  time of the day that is best?

I haven’t fished the Lehigh but it is a big river.  Assuming you’ll be fishing below the dam it is 50-100 feet wide in places and wading can be difficult so be careful how you step.  I have read if you want to avoid the rafters it’s better to fish above White Haven, or below early or late in the day.  As for the fishing, just fish whenever you can – trout can be caught all day long. Try starting out with a basic technique that appeals to you – upstream or 45 degrees up-and-across stream with a dry fly or a nymph and strike indicator, or possibly a streamer like a Woolly Bugger across and downstream.  Get one of the beginner books recommended, and go out and fish! casting question,,,when there is a loud "snap" , is that good or bad?

Not good.  It’s like cracking a bull whip and it’s even possible to snap a fly off that way!  But the main problem is your cast is not well synchronized yet, but that is common.  As you develop a little more line speed the line will straighten better behind you, and if you wait until it’s uncurled behind you or almost uncurled before casting forward this problem will go away. do you know of any internet videos that show the ideal casting movement and or presentations?

Someone else please? Can you attach aweight forward line to a balanced line

Not sure what you mean by balanced line (balanced outfit?), but yes, in fact if you got a level line with your outfit I would suggest replacing it with a value priced WF (Weight Forward).  It should help your casting. what should the ideal lenghts of the leader and the tippit be?

As you might guess there is no one answer.  It depends on the situation.  The longer the leader the more difficult it usually gets to cast.  The fly line can startle fish in clear, smooth water, so a longer leader might be used there. But I wouldn’t worry too much about it under regular conditions and just get a leader around 7.5 to 9 feet.  Or ask you local dealer about what kind of fishing you’ll do on the Lehigh.  You can actually just use the leader right out of the bag for tying on the first fly or 2, but you will want to add a couple feet or so of tippet and replace it as it gets shorter during the day. Some people do this: if they want a 9 foot 4X leader, they buy a 7.5 foot 3X leader and tie on 1.5 to 2 feet of 4X tippet material to it right away. is it ok to have all of the fly line out and getting into the backing during casting, or is that mostly for when you have a fish on the run?

You would be quite a prodigy if you are accomplishing that kind of cast.  A big trout in a strong current could take that much line out, but pretty rarely (steelhead and salmon fishing I suppose it would not be uncommon.) Regards, Jeff

Response:

hello again everyone… i thank everyone that has responded to my message yesterday. all help is appreciated,, so after i sent that message, i looked through the local phone book here in harrisburg, PA,, and found a fly shop,, grabbed my pole and headed down there… after finally finding the shop, i went in and started asking for help,,, the gentlemen where ever so kind and showed me alot, they took the time to explain things and show me the basics. I told them where i would be fishing and what i would mostly be fishing for..trout, bass, etc… then as the years go by, maybe other fish.. but for now i will take what i can get.  :)  so while being excited about the whole things i drove home with some new flys,, and a little knowledge…went in the back yard a practised my casting,, didnt do bad, but can understand and see how this works.. so i then went to the creek to get my feet wet.. after about a hour of tring and casting and oh those wind knots… i caught a fish!!! a bass,, woohoo, he was kinda small, maybe 8 inches, but nonetheless he was a fish… so now atleast i know it works,, but i will be the first to say i have alot of practicing to do,,and alot to learn… like should you fish upstream, or down, or across, or look for pockets?  time of the day that is best? and so on!!!  well thanks for listing,, and everyone elses question that i am reading here in this forum… thanks.. Alex * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

hello again everyone… i thank everyone that has responded to my message yesterday. all help is appreciated,, so after i sent that message, i looked through the local phone book here in harrisburg, PA,, and found a fly shop,, grabbed my pole and headed down there

Don’t do that.  This is likely illegal, and if you do it whilst holding a fly _rod_, you could give fly fishermen a bad name (well, really, a worse name…) <G …. after finally finding the shop, i went in and started asking for help,,, the gentlemen where ever so kind and showed me alot, they took the time to explain things and show me the basics. I told them where i would be fishing and what i would mostly be fishing for..trout, bass, etc… then as the years go by, maybe other fish.. but for now i will take what i can get.  :)  so while being excited about the whole things i drove home with some new flys,, and a little knowledge…went in the back yard a practised my casting,, didnt do bad, but can understand and see how this works.. so i then went to the creek to get my feet wet.. after about a hour of tring and casting and oh those wind knots

It will get easier, you sound like you’ve got the right attitude… … i caught a fish!!! a bass,, woohoo, he was kinda small, maybe 8 inches,

WOW, a 2-FOOTER!?!?!  ON THE FIRST CAST?!?!  Well, it is a shame it got away, but it least you landed the smaller one…(HINT, HINT).  You gotta practice all the skills, not just the casting…<G. but nonetheless he was a fish… so now atleast i know it works,, but i will be the first to say i have alot of practicing to do,,and alot to learn… like should you fish upstream, or down, or across, or look for pockets?

Oh, god, are you English?  Generally, unless you’re a guest on private waters, fish where the fish are, and here’s why:  If you’re fishing for food, it’s the best way to eat, and if you’re fishing for the love or sport, it’s your love and/or your sport.  Just don’t start doing Brad Pitt imitations or buying "all Orvis, all the time"  time of the day that is best? and so on!!!  well thanks for listing,, and everyone elses question that i am reading here in this forum… thanks.. Alex

TC, Welcome, R

Response:

(snip)

Alex, Sounds like you are off to a good start.  :-) — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

Response:

   Take it one step at a time.  Like me, I tried to do fly fishing on the cheap.  I love the sport but, due to the nature of military service (ya think I’m in it for the money?) I couldn’t afford all those nice things off the bat, so I’ve been slowly building up. (read terminal gear whore after many years)    Tying flies.  I decided to learn to tie flys ’cause it had to cheaper than buying those little bitty things.  If you get the urge to tie flies to save yourself some money, here is my foolproof 7 step plan to tying flies: Step 1:  Find a nice comfortable seat at a table.  Put something like plexiglass over a 2X2 area of the table to protect it from damage.  Don’t use a clamp vise on your dining room table.  The wife will find the damage, trust me. Step 2:  Get something to keep yourself organized.  I use an old ashtray (don’t smoke anymore) to keep small things in cause it has nice little indents in the side to keep all my tools. Step 3:  Reach into your bag and get the duct tape that you keep handy for those fishing emergencies. Step 4:  Have some one (you trust) tie you to the chair using the duct tape. Ensure that all is secure and a piece goes over your mouth. Step 5: Have that person reach into you back pocket, take out your wallet and burn all the money in there in the ashtray. Step 6: Send the person off to the ATM to max out your cards.  Please make sure he has your PIN numbers before he ties you up. Step 7:  Have your buddy burn all the money from the ATM in the ashtray while screaming "Fly tying, Bad!" over and over again.  Voila! You’re done!     This simple 7 step plan will save you the time that you’ll spend hanging out in petting zoos trying to trim that yak, stopping for road kill on a charcoal black ground squirrel and expounding ad nauseum on how unfair the penalty for importing polar bear pelts is to a true fly tying artist.  I won’t even go into the prices that people pay for a chicken skin.  Or the problems that can occur when an improperly stored road kill has its own "hatch."  (never, my God, never mention maggots to my wife)  Burning your money in one swell foop is also cheaper in the long run.  It gets it out of your system quickly and is good for your neighborhood fly merchant.                 The Reid Seven-Step-Method is available as a book on tape.                       Thank you                                     Frank Reid

Response:

Snap is BAD.All the line out to the backing is GOOD.!If you are a beginner and you are casting the whole line to the backing you should be giving lesons! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …but i will be the first to say i have alot of practicing to do,,and alot to learn… like should you fish upstream, or down, or across, or look for pockets?  time of the day that is best? and so on!!!  well thanks for listing,, and everyone elses question that i am reading here in this forum… thanks.. Alex Well, you’re getting ready to go on a trip soon, right?  Why don’t you tell us more about what the conditions are like there, where it is, what kind of water, what kind of fish, etc. Regards, Jeff hello jeff, well i am not sure of the place that i am going, since i have never been there before. But for what i do know and for what i have researched, is.. Pocono region in PA, there is the Lehigh River, a large river i assume, maybe some fast currents, due to the fact that they have white water rafting. Stocked for trout, rainbows, browns, brooks, steelheads, as far as other fish i am unsure, sure theres alot though,,, water conditions are varied at the moment,, water is moving quite fast although the levels are declining… other than that i am still in the process of the research…casting question,,,when there is a loud "snap" , is that good or bad? do you know of any internet videos that show the ideal casting movement and or presentations?  also, what should the ideal lenghts of the leader and the tippit be? Can you attach aweight forward line to a balanced line..etc…. last but not least(for today )  is it ok to have all of the fly line out and getting into the backing during casting, or is that mostly for when you have a fish on the run?  thanks. alex * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Alex, glad to hear things went well for you.  Congratulations on catching your first fish on the fly.  Some people find it takes much longer to "devirginize" themselves. like should you fish upstream, or down, or across, or look for pockets?  time of the day that is best? and so on!!!

Unfortunately, there really isn’t any golden rule for these questions.  At times fishing upstream is the best bet, but then again, sometimes the currents will make this impossible and you have to change your position and avenue of approach.  Pockets can be excellent places to pick up fish.  It has been my experience that in general, morning and evening is the most active time, but that fish can be caught all day. I guess this is what I found part of the fun when I started fly fishing.  I had been a worm drowner and hardware hucker for years so I knew how to find the fish, but there were so many challenges to overcome fly fishing that it kept me busy constantly trying to learn and improve.  Let’s just say that the more experience you get, the more you realize you need to learn and the more you will fish, experiment, and read.  Eventually you discover that you will never live long enough to learn *everything* and will be happy just in the attempt. Good luck to you.  Unfortunately there is no cure to this illness and it has been known to have such side effects including, but not limited to, poverty, divorce, sleeplessness, and wandering from trout stream to trout stream. Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

Question:

Available variuous tinsel.  Gold, silver, copper.  Fine & medium. Flat and round.  7 to 15 yards. FLY FISHING ACCESSORIES                         BOXES of 12             ITEM    FINE    MEDIUM  WIDE Wire Copper     22               Embossed Silver         25       Flat Silver     17      18      19 Oval Silver     29      29       Wire Silver     31               Embossed Gold           24       Flat Gold       13      11      14 Oval Gold       31      24       Wire Gold       29               Mixed Types 12  different per box       27               Gd Olive 4 Strand Floss 1               Steel Grey 4 Strand Floss       1 $10.00 per box For more info call: Boris Kortiak TBS Industries 4211 Van Kirk St. Philadelphia, PA 19135 tel: +1 (215) 535-6500 8:30 AM to 3:30 PM Eastern Time Monday through Friday

Response:

Question:

I am looking for web sites with saltwater patterns and instructions on how to tie them. Anybody run across any?

http://www.reel-time.com/

Response:

Go to http://www.flyfishing.com and post messages about what patterns you’d like to know about. A lot of fly tying experts and commercial flytiers check in at this site. Also, if you are interested in getting a great bonefish pattern book, try Dick Brown’s new book on Bonefish Patterns–it’s excellent, especially for Bahamas patterns. Good fishin’ Bob Elliott, Rochester, NY

Response:

I am looking for web sites with saltwater patterns and instructions on how to tie them. Anybody run across any?

Response:

Question:

I’m going to be visiting Door County, Wisconsin in mid-August.  We’d like to spend a couple days inland doing some fly fishing.  Can anyone recommend a good stream not too far (2-3 hours) from Green Bay, with some decent beginner water and preferably a good (not too wild) campground nearby?  I’ve read in a guide book of the Wolf River.  Any comments? TIA Greg

You might want to check out the Wisconsin Flyfishing page at http://www.dwave.net/~patrick/ for some useful info. Don’t forget about Green Bay itself, especially if you like to eat (and catch) walleye! — Richard W. (Dick) Lander; sportsman, Macintosh devotee, proponent of personal liberty. *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *   Another day…another chance something will be found hazardous to my health…

Response:

I’m going to be visiting Door County, Wisconsin in mid-August.  We’d like to spend a couple days inland doing some fly fishing.  Can anyone recommend a good stream not too far (2-3 hours) from Green Bay, with some decent beginner water and preferably a good (not too wild) campground nearby?  I’ve read in a guide book of the Wolf River.  Any comments?   TIA Greg

Response:

Wolf River gets pretty warm this time of year.  I’d try the four P’s just northwest of Green Bay…The Pike, Popple, Pine and Peshtigo.  Plenty of camping and BIG trout in those streams with plenty of access.  The Peshtigo gets pretty warm in the summer too though. TO WET LINES AND FULL TUMMYS, Chris Willman La Crosse, Wisconsin

Response:

Question:

I have always been interested in taking up fly fishing, but just haven’t done anything with my interest. I would like to take the plunge this summer. I am planning a camping a camoing trip in August in the Mammoth Lakes are(California) and would like to try fly fishing. I would appreciate advice on how to get started. Can you rent equipment, or should I buy? Are there classes or videos on the basics?              I appreciate any help I can get.                                                   Steve Schenkel

Response:

I have always been interested in taking up fly fishing, but just haven’t done anything with my interest. I would like to take the plunge this summer. I am planning a camping a camoing trip in August in the Mammoth Lakes are(California) and would like to try fly fishing. I would appreciate advice on how to get started. Can you rent equipment, or should I buy? Are there classes or videos on the basics?

Hi Steve, There are several things you can do to get started. First and probably most important locate a Pro Fly Shop in your area if possible. There you can get information, instruction, videos (buy or rent), and rent equipment. One word of advise: save yourself a lot of frustration and invest in a casting lesson or two. I’d rather see you spend a little money learning skills rather than jumping right in and buying a rod/reel etc.that you have no idea how to use. I also believe the best rod in the world does a poor job in the hands of someone who does not know how to use it. Another way to learn and get started if a shop is not available is a local fly fishing club. You can contact the Federation of Fly Fishers at 1-800-618-0808 and ask for the information on an affiliate club close to you. There you may be able to get instruction and help you need. While talking with the FFF at the 800 number you might purchase a couple of their instructional booklet regarding fly fishing – Introduction to Fly Fishing and a book on beginning fly casting (I forget the name). They cost about $2.00 each and are a good way to get inexpensive information. Stay in touch with the group. As you learn and progress I’m sure you will have more questions. Good Luck Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (new 96 catalog)

Response:

I have always been interested in taking up fly fishing, but just haven’t done anything with my interest. I would like to take the plunge this summer.

Dear Folks; Fish with someone who knows how.  Learn how to be successful and catch some fish.  You need to learn what you are going to need to learn. Sound confusing?, its not.  Find-out what type of water you have available.  Your "mentor" should be able to fill you in.  What you DON’T want to do is be a generalist.  You cannot buy those fly kits with the "basic" flys for, say, all eastern streams: probably will be marginally successful.  The general, basic, elementary classics of flyfishing will come to you as you become more acquianted with the sport.  If there is no waters near you where you need to cast far, then don’t waste your time learning to double-haul cast.  See, its stuff like this that gives you a false impression as to what you need and what you will be doing. You do need to know how to cast and learn what you need and what it is called.  That general info. is good.   But don’t be watching flyfishing for Bass, then Pike, then Tarpon, then Western trout, then Eastern trout and think you need to do what the people you saw were doing.  It will not apply.  Conform your equipment and style to the kinds of water you will be fishing initially, and you will be on you way to successful and enjoyable fishing. Sincerely, Jason Beary

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I have always been interested in taking up fly fishing, but just haven’t done anything with my interest. I would like to take the plunge this summer. I am planning a camping a camoing trip in August in the Mammoth Lakes are(California) and would like to try fly fishing. I would appreciate advice on how to get started. Can you rent equipment, or should I buy? Are there classes or videos on the basics?

Hi Norma, Classes are the way to go if you want to learn quickly.  Specifically I’d recommend classes that teach casting, knots, where trout live (reading the water), what they eat (entomology – bugs), all about tackle (entirely too easy to spend lots of bucks on great stuff and not get what you need), conservation, and etiquette.  In addition to this they should feature on-stream fishing as line control problems and "dead drift" tactics really need to be taught one on one in the water not in the classroom.   Just like the classes we offer (surprise!!).  E-mail me if you would like a schedule of classes. If  classes are out of the budget, the next best thing is to take a casting lesson and then hire a guide for the next day.  You can get the basics in a couple of hours and then get out on the stream and do some fishing with a guide who knows where the fish are and what it takes to catch them.  Be sure to tell the guide you want to learn about reading water and how to get a dead drift.  Usually the guide will have equipment available for you to rent or use.  This will get you a feel for it without making any big purchases ahead of time.  After you’ve had the casting lesson, even with those minimum skills, you will be able to cast different rods to see which one feels best.  Don’t buy a rod without casting it. After being in the water fishing, you will get a feel for what all this gear does and what is important (use *polarized* glasses for fishing, regular sunglasses are worthless for spotting fish or watching your fly). If you’re going to be in Mammoth Lakes stop at the Trout Fly (619) 934-2517.  They can arrange a guided trip on Hot Creek, the Middle Fork of the San Joaquin, or other small streams in the area.  If you get a chance stay at the Arcularius Ranch on the Upper Owens a little north of Mammoth Lakes.  Definitely get a guide for the Arcularius Ranch.  It has lots of big fish in a small stream but they are very difficult to catch.  A stealthy approach is half of it, but If you don’t get a dead drift, it doesn’t matter what fly you’re using, you won’t catch fish. A couple of videos that will help are " Essence of Fly Casting" (not vol. 2) by Mel Krieger and The Skills of Fly Fishing by Gary Borger.  Mel

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Serious question; what’s the difference besides price?

For one, the no-see-um netting doesn’t! * Todd Merriman – Software Toolz, Inc. +1 706 889 8264  * Maintainer of the * * 8030 Pooles Mill Dr., Ball Ground, GA 30107-9610      * Software          * * UUCP: …!emory!slammer!toolz!todd                    * Entrepreneur’s    * Never knock on Death’s door. Ring the bell and run away.  Death really hates that.

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Serious question; what’s the difference besides price?  I’ve never done

One weekend in Colorado we were sleeping in a NF tent went the wind must have started blowing 80 mph.  It felt like it was going to lift us up in the tent.  The ends of the poles flared where a plug is inserted that fits into a grommet.   The tent was 5 years old.  I sent the poles back and got new ones FREE. A K-Mart tent would have been shredded. I’ve also broken a zipper on an OLD NF daypack.  They fixed the zipper and fixed up some fraying edges for FREE. We stuck a new NF sleeping bag in the dryer when the heat switch didn’t work on the "NO HEAT" position.  It melted a 4"x6" hole in the bag.  NF repaired it and added down for $20. And like other people said they don’t leak. I use gear hard and will only buy from NF and similar companies. Mort

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I am testing my posting capabilities.

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Serious question; what’s the difference besides price?  I’ve never done One weekend in Colorado we were sleeping in a NF tent went the wind must have started blowing 80 mph.  It felt like it was going to lift us up in the tent.  The ends of the poles flared where a plug is inserted that fits into a grommet.  

I spent a week on the outer banks ( North Carolina ) with a ‘kmart’ type dome tent.  One night a storm hit with winds in the 40-60 mph range.  All night long I heard car doors slamming and vehicles leaving,  the tent flexed and got a little water in it but withstood the storm.  In the morning there were 3 other campers left in the campground ( about 30 people left during the night ).  However years later while airing the tent in my backyard one corner of the fly came loose ( the elastic cord was shot by then ) and my dog ( a puppy then ) proceded to destroy the tent.   bob

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One night a storm hit with winds in the 40-60 mph range.  All night long I heard car doors slamming and vehicles leaving,  the tent flexed and got a little water in it but withstood the storm.  In the morning there were 3 other campers left in the campground ( about 30 people left during the night ).

It was probably the people, not their tents, that broke down. — -Wayne Trzyna

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 Serious question; what’s the difference besides price?  I’ve never done  serious backcountry camping (yet), but I’ve camped out in some fairly  cold places.  On my last cross-country trip, I woke up in the morning  when the temperature was freezing, but I’d been perfectly warm in my  $40 K-mart tent and my $30 Coleman rectangular sleeping bag.    lesson one: You get what you pay for.    The main reason a NF tent cost more is the quality of the materials    used. The poles are 7075 aircraft alluminium not cheap fiberglass    that will snap on you. The biggest part of the cost is the poles.    Survival factor: If my life is on the line in a blizzard at 12,000    feet for four days I dont think I want to trust a $40.00 tent, if it    fails you die. If you don’t venture into these parts then a K-Mart    tent is fine.    One other reason is that The North Face will stand by it’s products    for life. Even if you muck it up yourself they will fix it for a small    charge.    One tent failure in dangerous weather will teach you this lesson,    trust me, I’ve been there…. Certified Gearhead:            Tim

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Serious question; what’s the difference besides price?  I’ve never done serious backcountry camping (yet), but I’ve camped out in some fairly cold places.  On my last cross-country trip, I woke up in the morning when the temperature was freezing, but I’d been perfectly warm in my $40 K-mart tent and my $30 Coleman rectangular sleeping bag. Granted, I got soaked when it rained the next day, but I hadn’t put on the rainfly. —                 -ed falk, sun microsystems         "Towards the end, the smell of their air began to change"

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Serious question; what’s the difference besides price?   Well, I owned a $40 tent from a large department store not unlike K-mart, and now own a $150 tent from a chain not unlike North Face. The big differents  is rain. The 40 buck tent leaked even with the rainfly.  So far not one drop has ever gotten into the $150 tent.

I have a dome tent that I bought on sale from JC Penny for $35.  It’s rain fly does cover the whole tent.  I’ve seam-sealed it and it is reasonably water proof from above.  The floor isn’t — I learned the hard way about that.  I put a tarp down under the tent that was bigger than the tent and it channeled water under the tent that saoked through and into my sleeping bag. But I’ve been in nasty storms and it’s held out well.  My wife has made a winter-season fly with a vestibule for the tent, altho’ it wouldn’t hold up with a lot of snow on it. Is it as good as a North Face?  Of course not.  But it works for me, holds my wife, myself, our dog and our boots and not much else.  And it fit our budget. — Are you thinking of telephones and managers and where you got to be at noon?

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Here is the history of a K-mart tent, to illustrate its strengths and weaknesses:    It was made in Tiawan.  $50 in the early 70’s.  Made of a single layer of coated nylon (no rain fly).  A "wall tent" design; think of an old-fashioned pup tent with vertical sides underneath.  A big tent, comfortable for three. Advantages: I could afford it.  Lots of room. Only four pounds! Disadvantages: it took fourteen stakes and eight guy lines to set the damn thing up.  A pain at best, and sometimes it was impossible to find a large and soft enough site for it.  Surprisingly, neither leakage nor condensation were a problem. I used this thing on many hard-core wilderness trips over many years.  Was never so foolish as to use it above timberline or in winter, of course. Finally – -One year, way back in the Wind Rivers, a heavy windstorm came up and tore out the grommet supporting one pole.  Spent a wild couple of hours outside holding the thing up while a companion sewed it back together with fishing leader. -Next year, camped in the Snake River Plain on the way to the Cariboos.  A    _really_ _heavy_ rain came up, and the tent leaked and finally collapsed in the middle of the night.  Spent the night in the truck, and the next day in Idaho Falls drying our gear and shopping for a big tarp to use as a rain fly; the Cariboos are rain forest!  A big tarp rigged over the tent worked great on what became the rainiest trip I’ve ever taken,  but made pitching camp a big job.  And wouldn’t have worked in a heavy wind. – Two years after that, camped in a heavy rain near Stowe, Vermont. Packed the tent wet and didn’t get around to drying it for a week.  It turned out that the zippers, stake loops, etc. were cotton, and they all fell apart. I sadly trashed it and sewed up a Frostline Kodiak. _That_ is the difference between North Face and K-Mart. (BTW I now use a North Face Westwind. Damn good tent.)                         Chuck Smythe

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| Serious question; what’s the difference besides price?  I’ve never done | serious backcountry camping (yet), but I’ve camped out in some fairly | cold places.  On my last cross-country trip, I woke up in the morning | when the temperature was freezing, but I’d been perfectly warm in my | $40 K-mart tent and my $30 Coleman rectangular sleeping bag. | | Granted, I got soaked when it rained the next day, but I hadn’t put on | the rainfly. | | — |           -ed falk, sun microsystems |   "Towards the end, the smell of their air began to change" (1) Weight, (2) Durability, (3) Service. The $40 K-Mart tent is going to be heavier, and the seams may not be sewn as solidly.  There may be more seams than optimal (i.e. the tent may be optimized for ease of production, which may not necessarily be optimal for rough conditions).  Finally, if something ever goes wrong with a North Face, Sierra Designs, Walrus, (or whatever) tent, you just bring it back to the store.  They’ll send it back to the manufacturer to fix it.  Doesn’t matter how old the tent is (as long as it doesn’t look like a bear chewed it). (Actually, this last is from hearsay.  I’ve only experienced their customer service in regards to a backpack; I’ve heard about their customer service with respect to sleeping bags, and I’m extrapolating to tents). As for the sleeping bag:  Frankly, you must be a warm sleeper.  My $30 Coleman rectangular bag is *barely* adequate as a comforter.  It has at most 1.5" of loft; it’s heavy; it won’t squoosh down into a small package; it’s not particularly windproof or water resistant (though the fill fiber is synthetic).  (Its weight is maybe 7 or 8 lbs, though that’s a guess.  My mummy bag weighs under 3 lbs, has 6" of loft, and is *highly* wind and water resistant.  Of course, I do feel like a sardine when I sleep in my mummy bag). — Hy

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  lesson one: You get what you pay for.   The main reason a NF tent cost more is the quality of the materials   used. The poles are 7075 aircraft alluminium not cheap fiberglass   that will snap on you. The biggest part of the cost is the poles.   Survival factor: If my life is on the line in a blizzard at 12,000   feet for four days I dont think I want to trust a $40.00 tent, if it   fails you die. If you don’t venture into these parts then a K-Mart   tent is fine.   One tent failure in dangerous weather will teach you this lesson,   trust me, I’ve been there….

  I agree completely. The main difference between NF (or any other quality manufacturer) is the quality of the materials and the quality of the work. Good gear lasts forever (practically) if you take care of it. Cheap gear always breaks when you least want it to. Cheap tents leak more, poles break easier, grommets pull out, seam stitching tears out, etc… When I used to be a full-time guide, I saw more trips ruined by clients bringing cheap gear and having it break down. I understand that $$$ is always a consideration but I believe that you should always buy the best gear you can afford. Even a cheap tent by a good brand is better than going to Kmart, or whereever. I’d recommend renting good gear instead of buying the cheap stuff. Even if your’re not at 12,000 ft in a blizzard, the goal is to have FUN, which is impossible if you gear fails. RIPS (Raster Image Processing Systems)           uunet!solbourne.com!rips!rob 4665 Nautilus Court South                    << KERNAL: Panic, core dumped Boulder, CO 80301                         Darkstar crashes, pouring its light (303) 530-2910                              into ashes, reason tatters, …

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Serious question; what’s the difference besides price?

The other suggestions and answers cover the subject pretty well, so I will only add this: The cheap tent can be upgraded, providing it handles the basics as it is. Work it over with the best seam sealer you can get. Replace those funky heavy fiberglass poles with aluminum poles cut to the proper size. I would only use it for summer camping and weekend fair-weather backpacking. I did the above upgrading to an old $50 two man dome tent, and it works fine. The poles I got at REI in a bin used for tent returns. The tent is much liter now, and easy to backpack on those overnighters. For longer trips I use my North Face Tadpole NHP, which I am very pleased with. One reason to add to the other reasons to go with a more expensive (= durable) tent, is the weight. The Tadpole is 4 pounds, and packs down to a very small size, not to mention a breeze to put up, something to be thankful in a sudden rain shower or snow shower, I know. Between the 2 to 3 pounds the down bag saves me, and the three pounds the tent saves me, I have 5 pounds less to carry: pick up a 5 pound weight, and you will see it is nothing to sneeze at. Add that to the other areas you can trim weight, and it begins to add up. Unfortunately, there is a correlation between quality durable lightweight equipment and its cost… | "Bully! Bully!" – T. Roosevelt with John Muir at Glacier Point       | | "The mountains are calling me, and I must go."   John Muir           | |"Man has got astray out of his orbit, or away from the ends for which | | he was created." John Muir.                                          |

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"What’s the difference between a North Face tent and a K-Mart ten..besides price?"

Well, I’ve got a Eureka Timberline (4-person), a $15 K-Mart 2 man and a Sierra Designs Flash Cliplight.  I can’t talk about North Face per se, but I can give some general comparisons. The real cheap tents have a single non-breathing roof.  Unless you have very dry weather, you get condensation, even with the "window" open. There is no covered overhang, so when it rains, you have to "close it up" and you get more condensation. The fabric is lightweight and not "ripstop".  That means if a tear starts it is more likely to continue than in a better made tent. Also, the seems are not done as well and are not as strong.  For a single overnight in a reasonable situation, its probably okay. But I wouldn’t want to have to depend on it for my life in a week long trip. OTOH, the cheap tents are often lightweight.  That’s nice for carrying.  And you don’t have a big investment so you don’t have to worry about protecting it (I ususally save more weight by not using a ground cloth, which I do use with my better tents.) IMO, the cheap tents are not too bad for simple trips in mild conditions.  But I wouldn’t depend on one for a week long trip. Ken

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Serious question; what’s the difference besides price?  I’ve never done serious backcountry camping (yet), but I’ve camped out in some fairly cold places.  On my last cross-country trip, I woke up in the morning when the temperature was freezing, but I’d been perfectly warm in my $40 K-mart tent and my $30 Coleman rectangular sleeping bag. Granted, I got soaked when it rained the next day, but I hadn’t put on the rainfly.

Well, I owned a $40 tent from a large department store not unlike K-mart, and now own a $150 tent from a chain not unlike North Face. The big differents  is rain. The 40 buck tent leaked even with the rainfly.  So far not one drop has ever gotten into the $150 tent. But, the experience with the $40 really helped me in figuring out what makes a good rain proof tent.  And I really learn the value of seam sealers.  My $40 tent I didn’t use any seam sealer.  The $150 tent I used 2 bottles.  Would the $40 tent have leaked as much if I’d sealed it?  Probably.  The rain fly  on the $40 didn’t cover the tent completely.  So, as seen from above, parts of the tent were exposed.  I made sure the rain fly on the $150 tent completely covered the tent (actual a few places stick out).   Also, the seams that joined the floor and walls at ground level on the $40 tent. On the $150 tent, the floor sort of extents up and becomes the wall for 6 inches, so the wall/floor seam is 6 inches high and under the rain fly. HOMEBREW NAKED!                                  UUCP: …!ames!watson

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