Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Willi,  this sounds similar to the english E. danica indeed.  Does the Green Drake have a pale cream body with a couple of brown segments near the tail, alongside a slight olive colouring of the thorax / wing area and 3 long tail fibres? Michael, perhaps I can give some info that you may find interesting.  In 1962 the Western Green Drake was changed from Ephemerella grandis to Drunella grandis.  In England, Green Drakes are Ephemera danica, in the eastern US they are Ephemera guttulata and in the western US Drunella grandis. Description: BIOLOGOY OF MAYFLIES, 1935 "Abdominal segments dark purplish brown with wide pale margins, so as to appear conspicuously ringed." Revised in 1962 by Allen and Edmunds "Terga largely purplish brown with pale pleural and posterior margins, giving a distinct ringed appearance to the abdomen." A description of the Western Green Drake from SPINNERS by Nemes: ‘There is little green in the whole insect, although the base of the wings has a yellowy green cast to it, which is very prominent on the dun. The spinner appears green perhaps because of the pale yellow stripes between the dark, purply brown segments.  Body length is 3/4".  Three tails almost twice as long.  Wings: hyaline, with a span of 1 and 1/2".’ A very generic hatch chart that will give you a general idea of various hatch times: http://www.orvis.com/intro.asp?dir_id=&Group_ID=&subject=253&cktst=true HTH. —

Thanks Warren,  the two insects do sound very similar indeed:  very good fun to fish with here in the UK ~ have you ever fished a Green Drake hatch?  Are they common on most rivers or are they fairly limited in extent (UK is tiny compared to States, so I suppose that US environments vary wildly) .  I would imagine that the north east of the States is the most similar to the environment of the UK  (New England & New Hampshire might be a possible clue, but since I’ve never been there, I don’t really know ?) Regards, Mike.

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Willi,  this sounds similar to the english E. danica indeed.  Does the Green Drake have a pale cream body with a couple of brown segments near the tail, alongside a slight olive colouring of the thorax / wing area and 3 long tail fibres?

Michael, perhaps I can give some info that you may find interesting.  In 1962 the Western Green Drake was changed from Ephemerella grandis to Drunella grandis.  In England, Green Drakes are Ephemera danica, in the eastern US they are Ephemera guttulata and in the western US Drunella grandis.   Description: BIOLOGOY OF MAYFLIES, 1935 "Abdominal segments dark purplish brown with wide pale margins, so as to appear conspicuously ringed." Revised in 1962 by Allen and Edmunds "Terga largely purplish brown with pale pleural and posterior margins, giving a distinct ringed appearance to the abdomen." A description of the Western Green Drake from SPINNERS by Nemes: ‘There is little green in the whole insect, although the base of the wings has a yellowy green cast to it, which is very prominent on the dun.   The spinner appears green perhaps because of the pale yellow stripes between the dark, purply brown segments.  Body length is 3/4".  Three tails almost twice as long.  Wings: hyaline, with a span of 1 and 1/2".’ A very generic hatch chart that will give you a general idea of various hatch times: http://www.orvis.com/intro.asp?dir_id=&Group_ID=&subject=253&cktst=true HTH. — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

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Our snowpack percentage increased by 16% this weekend and they are already talking about more flooding because the temps this weekend are supposed to get up into the 90’s.

If it’s not one damn thing, it’s something else. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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didn’t stick much in the valley.  The mountains are white again though. Our snowpack percentage increased by 16% this weekend and they are already talking about more flooding because the temps this weekend are supposed to get up into the 90’s.

Our snowpack is a whopping 293% and the rivers are running at normal levels (16,300 cfs) on the lower Clark Fork. Heading up to Rock Creek with the Fam on Thursday. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

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Make sure to have the appropriate size/color quigley cripple. It’s a great pattern during the Green Drake hatch on the Bitterroot, which should be starting in 2 or 3 weeks.

Will do.  I still have your fly from one of the swaps set aside as my example pattern. More snow down to about 4000 feet here. We’ve had at least a couple of inches of rain in the past 4 days or so. I hope other parched places in the west are getting this.

Same here.  Not sure how much rain we received total, but it rained most of the weekend and most of yesterday too.  We had snow at times, but it didn’t stick much in the valley.  The mountains are white again though.   Our snowpack percentage increased by 16% this weekend and they are already talking about more flooding because the temps this weekend are supposed to get up into the 90’s. — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

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Make sure to have the appropriate size/color quigley cripple. It’s a great pattern during the Green Drake hatch on the Bitterroot, which should be starting in 2 or 3 weeks. More snow down to about 4000 feet here. We’ve had at least a couple of inches of rain in the past 4 days or so. I hope other parched places in the west are getting this. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have never fished an actual Green Drake "hatch" (like the glorious ones you read about in various magazines or books), but have fished Green Drakes while they were out.  In my experience, they are fairly common in that they are represented in a large geographic area, but rare in that they are a short-lived hatch and prefer certain types of water. Personally I like the Grey and Brown Drakes better because they are more common, probably because they have a longer hatch period, but they seem to be more widespread too.  That may be because they have the longer "hatch" though…..  I am hoping to fish some Green Drakes this weekend. Never fished the famous hatch on this river, but supposedly it is everything that you are talking about and more.  Unfortunately it brings out the crowds too.

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Thanks Warren,  the two insects do sound very similar indeed:  very good fun to fish with here in the UK ~ have you ever fished a Green Drake hatch?  Are they common on most rivers or are they fairly limited in extent (UK is tiny compared to States, so I suppose that US environments vary wildly) .  I would imagine that the north east of the States is the most similar to the environment of the UK  (New England & New Hampshire might be a possible clue, but since I’ve never been there, I don’t really know ?)

I have never fished an actual Green Drake "hatch" (like the glorious ones you read about in various magazines or books), but have fished Green Drakes while they were out.  In my experience, they are fairly common in that they are represented in a large geographic area, but rare in that they are a short-lived hatch and prefer certain types of water.   Personally I like the Grey and Brown Drakes better because they are more common, probably because they have a longer hatch period, but they seem to be more widespread too.  That may be because they have the longer "hatch" though…..  I am hoping to fish some Green Drakes this weekend.   Never fished the famous hatch on this river, but supposedly it is everything that you are talking about and more.  Unfortunately it brings out the crowds too. — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for the info Gary,  I checked the pictures but my outlook express newsgroup reader told me that I couldn’t view the pictures because there were no longer there, or words to similar effect.  I assume that you took the photos?  Do the green drakes in the Delaware hatch in a fortnight around about the end of May? Regards, Michael. It is really for only 4 or 5 days on the Delaware I am told. Most hatch charts make it the last fortnight of May though. If you want the photos I would be glad to email them to you. Just let me know.

Thanks Gary,  yes indeed I would quite like to see the pikkies, so please email them to me.  From what you say it seems like the english Mayfly is similar to the american Green Drake. Regards, Michael.

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Willi,  I think I wasn’t making myself clear in the previous post of mine: what I meant was does the green drake flies that you saw have the features that I mentioned, i.e. pale body with brown segments near tail and a pale olive hackle & wing ~ and of course the 3 long tail fibres?

Michael, FWIW, I posted several pics a few days back on alt.binaries.pictures.fishing. Flies were green drakes from the Delaware River in NY State. You above desc is compares well to the US Eastern Green Drake. I am sure it would be not difficult to find the pattern online. Where I am now, I cannot help! Best regards, Gary

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Willi,  this sounds similar to the english E. danica indeed.  Does the Green Drake have a pale cream body with a couple of brown segments near the tail, alongside a slight olive colouring of the thorax / wing area and 3 long tail fibres? Like I said, I’ve never seen one. There are people on ROFF who have.  When danica is hatching, the big trout all congregate in the slow pool tails and hunt down the hatching nymphs and emerging duns furiously.  After the danica has gone by, the pool tails become devoid of big trout My guess is that you would find them there at sunset and into the night.

The Western Green Drake is Drunella grandis or Drunella doddsi. The duns are pretty much an olive color all over. They emerge in the middle of the day, and they darken in color after emergence. The cool thing about the Green Drakes, from a flyfisherman’s point of view, is that the duns spend a long time on the surface, and there are lots of cripples. The mating flights and the spinner falls occur very late and into the night. These are big mayflies, but not nearly as big as the Brown Drake. The Big Wood River in Idaho has a superb Green Drake hatch in June. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Willi,  this sounds similar to the english E. danica indeed.  Does the Green Drake have a pale cream body with a couple of brown segments near the tail, alongside a slight olive colouring of the thorax / wing area and 3 long tail fibres? Like I said, I’ve never seen one. There are people on ROFF who have. Willi,  I think I wasn’t making myself clear in the previous post of mine: what I meant was does the green drake flies that you saw have the features that I mentioned, i.e. pale body with brown segments near tail and a pale olive hackle & wing ~ and of course the 3 long tail fibres?

Many apologies for my making myself unclear yet again.  What I really mean is not the natural flies that you haven’t seen, but the artificials that your friend showed you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Willi,  I think I wasn’t making myself clear in the previous post of mine: what I meant was does the green drake flies that you saw have the features that I mentioned, i.e. pale body with brown segments near tail and a pale olive hackle & wing ~ and of course the 3 long tail fibres? Michael, FWIW, I posted several pics a few days back on alt.binaries.pictures.fishing. Flies were green drakes from the Delaware River in NY State. You above desc is compares well to the US Eastern Green Drake. I am sure it would be not difficult to find the pattern online. Where I am now, I cannot help!

Thanks for the info Gary,  I checked the pictures but my outlook express newsgroup reader told me that I couldn’t view the pictures because there were no longer there, or words to similar effect.  I assume that you took the photos?  Do the green drakes in the Delaware hatch in a fortnight around about the end of May? Regards, Michael.

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Thanks for the info Gary,  I checked the pictures but my outlook express newsgroup reader told me that I couldn’t view the pictures because there were no longer there, or words to similar effect.  I assume that you took the photos?  Do the green drakes in the Delaware hatch in a fortnight around about the end of May? Regards, Michael.

It is really for only 4 or 5 days on the Delaware I am told. Most hatch charts make it the last fortnight of May though. If you want the photos I would be glad to email them to you. Just let me know. Best, Gary

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Willi,  this sounds similar to the english E. danica indeed.  Does the Green Drake have a pale cream body with a couple of brown segments near the tail, alongside a slight olive colouring of the thorax / wing area and 3 long tail fibres? Like I said, I’ve never seen one. There are people on ROFF who have.

Willi,  I think I wasn’t making myself clear in the previous post of mine: what I meant was does the green drake flies that you saw have the features that I mentioned, i.e. pale body with brown segments near tail and a pale olive hackle & wing ~ and of course the 3 long tail fibres?  When danica is hatching, the big trout all congregate in the slow pool tails and hunt down the hatching nymphs and emerging duns furiously.  After the danica has gone by, the pool tails become devoid of big trout My guess is that you would find them there at sunset and into the night.

I have only fished into the night a few times when I was a kid.  The river in light is a wonderous place,  but for a 10 year old,  the darkness of night makes the water kind of creepy.   In ordinary days out fishing these days,  I have to be home by a reasonable hour  (wife & all that…) and so I’ll probably not get much opportunities for night / evening fishing ~ besides, 21 years later,  I still remember how creepy the river became in darkening light PS,  I had an excellent day’s fishing on my favourite stretch today.  The weather was excellent  (overcast, no wind and no rain but fairly warm) and there was a lot  of activity taking place.  The E. danica Mayfly spinners were dancing around laying their eggs.  I was amazed at how many there were, considering the carnage that was wrought upon the duns.  Anyhow,  I had a number of pheasant tail dryflies that I had already chosen to use for the day.  The fly is a simple creation of  3 PT fibres for the tail & body,  and a ginger cock hackle wound fairly bushy.  I have a streamlined variant with less hackle to be used in the really tricky spots where I have to cast under overhanging branches,  but that is not a durable floater for general fishing.  I caught about 20 fish at an average of about 3/4 lb each fish and quite a few indeed over the pound mark ~ 1 to be cooked on the smoker tomorrow.  This season has seen a beefing up of the fish stock and I’m sure that the fish are bigger  than that that I have become used to over the 6 years that I have fished this stream.  I saw an absolute clonker leap several feet out of the water, it looked good for 2 pounds.  However by the time that I reached this fish, the river went strange and my fly had become out of vogue ~ nothing went for my fly at all! Half an hour earlier I had just finished a period of about 3 hours whereby most fish that I covered rose to my fly.  I had been very pleased with the fly’s performance,  just as I had expected it to do since it is a good choice for this time of the year  (and it is easy to tie up too).  As I worked my way slowly towards the area where I saw the big fish rise,  I encountered some smaller fish bulging.  I wanted to turn these fish downstream of me without spooking the big trout, and so aimed to hook up as many of these fish as I could and bring them downstream and then release the tension in the line so that the hook falls out (no barbs) and releases the fish.  This is a good method of clearing a shallow section of water so that the angler may proceed slightly further upstream to a target fish. I started this plan,  but to no avail!  The fish totally stopped taking my fly,  and by the time I reached the area where the big one had been rising I did not have a single rise, despite a few fly changes, including a PT nymph. I have to admit defeat on this pool / glide, as I couldn’t entice a thing despite seeing many rises.  I like this pool as it a challenging but beautiful stretch of water some 50 yards long with many fish. Cheers for now, Michael.

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From the pictures I called up, the most similar in size and appearance to the Danica seems to be the Green Drake. Personally, I’ve never fished a Drake hatch, but there are other posters here that have and do. Wayne Knight, tries to make a yearly pilgramage to fish the Hex hatch in Michigan. He sent me some flies he uses for this hatch. They’re MUCH bigger than any Mayfly I’ve seen. The flies he sent are bigger than many flies I use for bass!

Willi,  this sounds similar to the english E. danica indeed.  Does the Green Drake have a pale cream body with a couple of brown segments near the tail, alongside a slight olive colouring of the thorax / wing area and 3 long tail fibres? The flight of a newly hatched Mayfly E. danica dun is quite a sight indeed. The creatures fly relatively slowly with rapid whirring of the wings and with the tail more or less pointing towards the water.  It takes them a bit of time to get the momentum up and during this time they are quite prone to aerial assults by the trout! I thoroughly recommend your seeing a drake hatch as it is like a festival on the stream.  The trout really go crazy and severely reveal their presence with savage swirls / splashes / leaps and so on.  On the rivers that I fish that have the E. danica,  it seems like the hatching of this burrowing nymph is the trout’s primary seasonal harvest, and the trouts’ indulgence is such that caution is temporarily thrown to the wind. After the E. danica hatch is over the river quietens down progressively through the months June July & August.  In late August the stream can be very quiet indeed,  and only the nymph seems to be successful in enticing fish to participate in my days’ operations.  During September,  things liven up a little, but by the end of the month it becomes close season,  with the cold winter days soon to come. I have come to believe that the hatching out of the E. danica is more or less the trouts’ raison d’etre, as it effectively forms the peak of the trouts’ feeding activities. [Just like for me,  catching trout on a beautiful stream is my raison d'etre!!!!] Without the E. danica, the trout hold station and help themselves only to the morcels that pass by, with the odd excursion to snatch a sedge; little energy is expended on such table scraps.  When danica is hatching, the big trout all congregate in the slow pool tails and hunt down the hatching nymphs and emerging duns furiously.  After the danica has gone by, the pool tails become devoid of big trout , and the yearlings / 2 year olds all return to their regular (non-danica) places.  The big trout then all disappear back to their lies in various alder roots at the heads of runs & pools and become somewhat more  difficult to catch until the next danica hatch that is…. In England,  the month of May is the dryfly month, as that is when the upwinged flies start to hatch out in earnest.  The last 2 weeks in May and the first week of June are really busy days with the dryfly and it is great fun just to be there: fishing and catching fish is merely the icing on the cake.  That being said,  I also like the "dogdays" of late summer too, as exploration work with the nymph is just as much fun as fishing the dryfly, and more demanding of the angler’s concentration and skills etc. Regards, Michael.

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Willi,  this sounds similar to the english E. danica indeed.  Does the Green Drake have a pale cream body with a couple of brown segments near the tail, alongside a slight olive colouring of the thorax / wing area and 3 long tail fibres?

Like I said, I’ve never seen one. There are people on ROFF who have.  When danica is hatching, the big trout all congregate in the slow pool tails and hunt down the hatching nymphs and emerging duns furiously.  After the danica has gone by, the pool tails become devoid of big trout

My guess is that you would find them there at sunset and into the night. Willi

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Snip. Thanks. Very well-written and a useful read.

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[a very informative snip] These types of feeding lies are not unique to this stretch of river. I’ve found similar unconventional feeding lies in many waters I’ve fished. They are not as readily apparent as "classic" lies but are definitely worth seeking out. Willi

Willi, just found this little gem of a post. It seems like you’re describing the upper Grand, just below Belwood dam – long stretches of medium-slow to slow water broken by riffles and chutes.  During hatches and off-colour water, these slow areas can be full of fish but in clear, low, no-hatch conditions they seem devoid of fish.  This river has a limestone bottom that is fairly flat in spots yet it has underwater ledges that change the depth by 6" or so, providing holding spots for fish.  I’ll work these waters from top to bottom, side-to-side with a streamer by wading downstream right down the middle and casting bank to bank. I’ve seen the "truck bed coverage" pattern of rising fish in slow water and though I have caught them on dries, though anticipating their next move can be frustrating (especially in a trico spinner fall) so I often fish them with a small streamer run very shallow and fast.  Even though they are keyed on a specific bug, they will usually smack a well presented streamer, since they are already in the feeding mood. Your post is a clear statement that anglers should spend as much time observing as they spend fishing. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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One question for you Willi:  do you have the English Mayfly (E. danica) over on your side?  Over here we have a fortnight (just finished) of total mayhem on the troutstream when these ephemeral leviathans hatch out.  

I did a web search and it seems that we don’t have that specific Mayfly although we do have a number of burrowing Mayflies across the country that are generically called Drakes. These Drake hatches bring up the big fish and also bring out anglers from all over to fish them.   From the pictures I called up, the most similar in size and appearance

to the Danica seems to be the Green Drake. Personally, I’ve never fished a Drake hatch, but there are other posters here that have and do. Wayne Knight, tries to make a yearly pilgramage to fish the Hex hatch in Michigan. He sent me some flies he uses for this hatch. They’re MUCH bigger than any Mayfly I’ve seen. The flies he sent are bigger than many flies I use for bass! The Mayflies on my home river are mainly small, 18 to 22. The exception is a large bright yellow Mayfly that hatches at dusk and into the night in July and August. I caught the largest trout I’ve taken on a dry during this hatch. The problem is that the hatch is strong enough to really interest the fish only once every five years or so. While at the Penn’s Clave, I got to see and fish some March Brown Mayflies. I thought they were huge but I was told that they were small compared to the Green Drakes. Willi

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Good stuff snipped. Willi,  this is an excellent post and something that I have also experienced, albeit in a very much minor scale to yours.  My rivers are much smaller than yours, however the trout do tend to move around in a similar fashion although probably proportionally to the size of the rivers concerned.  I have often found trout in the most bizarre places in the stream that I ordinarily wouldn’t have bothered casting to.  It is only when I have seen the sizeable fish flee from my upstream wading that I have gathered their presence in these particular spots, or else I have been very much surprised by a very much swirlsome rise in a strange spot.   In later visits I would target these areas, and indeed some good trout have been taken by my rod  from these previously "fishless" spots. On my fave stream  (of which I posted a pikkie in ABPF some weeks ago) there is a cow drinking spot that is at the very tail end of a long slow glide / straight pool.  Immediately in front of the shallow draining section are often very big fish for the river 1.5lb plus) in the very shallow water (1 foot deep).   I initially found these fish out years ago by all of their massive bow waves as they all shot off when I went wading up to them in ignorance.  I paid attention to this observation and over the years have had a lot of fun trying to deceive these fish.  On average, these trout in this spot have bettered my tactics as it is quite difficult to present a fly to them in consideration of the prevailing circumstances. These are very tricky fish to cast to with my small 6 foot rod:  in order not to scare the fish by my presence, I have to cast at the fish whilst standing in fast water ~ if I am not careful,  the drag on my line closest to me will accelerate the fly and drag it too fast past the fish.  I have to be sure to collect line quickly and to hold the rod as high as possible to avoid excessive downstream drag on the fly.  My most favoured approach is to use a PT nymph and pitch it about 18 inches upstream of the trout with a snaky cast (i.e. twang the flyline taut about 1 foot above the surface of the water to induce curves in the flyline / leader.  The trick is to try to mend the flyline so as the fly doesn’t suddenly accelerate when the curves are all brought straight by the dragging current. A nice slow start by the nymph is much preferred over the sudden acceleration.  Recently I have tried to get back into dryfly fishing, and this spot is very tricky indeed with the floating fly, however a bushier fly gives more time for the fly to be drifted over the trout before the dreaded drag acceleration.  (that being said,  I have caught plenty of fish with a dragging fly (usually accidentally) !!. One question for you Willi:  do you have the English Mayfly (E. danica) over on your side?  Over here we have a fortnight (just finished) of total mayhem on the troutstream when these ephemeral leviathans hatch out.  The trout all go completely nuts for them,  and the biggies come out into the pool tails and are relatively prone to the fly angler for the first half of the fortnight at least.  The trout seem to be so transfixed with the Mayfly that they will not  see the error of the angler.   For the rest of the year the biggies seem to disappear and are difficult to engage.  During the Mayfly (in England the Mayfly is a specific species of ephemerid, and it is disproportionally bigger than most other upwinged aquatic fly) fortnight the regular structure of trout feeding locations is more or less inverted and we find the big fish out in the open slow water, chasing down mayfly duns anywhere they see them.  I have seen on many occasions trout leap clear of the water to intercept an E. danica as it fluttered a foot or so over the water’s surface. Regards, Michael.

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There is a section of my home river where a walking/biking/jogging path runs above the river on a bluff for about a half mile. This high vantage point provides an unusual and ideal opportunity to observe the comings and going of the trout. It took me a couple of years before I began to utilize this viewing area. At first, I used the path to walk from one spot to the next or else I just waded along the banks of the river. One day, I happened to stop along the path and while looking down into the river saw a good fish feeding, suspended in the water about a foot below the surface, in an area I had ignored in the past. I took the time to check out more of the area, and found numerous good fish feeding in areas that I had passed by before because they didn’t "fit the mold" of good spots. After this first encounter, I’ve made it a habit to make observations of this stretch of water from the overlooking path on a consistent basis. I’ve learned a number of things watching the trout in this area over the years but two things I’ve learned that have changed the way I fish are: trout will move considerable distances to feed and they will choose feeding stations that are "unconventional" based on what is described by most of the angling literature. I’ve been watching these trout for most of the fifteen years I’ve lived here and have found that different fish, for their own reasons, choose different feeding areas. From my observations, it seems that the same fish choose the same stations while actively feeding, at least during water levels where I can observe and/or fish. Trout feed in a variety of locations throughout a stream or river. Some trout move very little from their holding positions to feed even during strong hatches. There are other fish who leave their holding locations to move to active feeding stations. Many of them will do this at specific times of the day depending on the season and will then return to their deeper holding water. I’ve followed fish for several hundred yards as they return to the pool after being spooked off their feeding station. Hatches will also draw them to these areas even if these hatches are at different times than their "regular" schedule. I enjoy fishing for and finding these actively feeding fish for a number of reasons. The fish have moved into these positions for one reason only, to feed and because of this, they are very vulnerable to being caught. Another reason that these fish are worth pursuing is that many of these areas are ignored by the average angler and more often produce better fish. In heavily fished water, and especially in water with open regulations, the better fish have a tendency to feed in areas where they aren’t likely to be caught. An Overview of this Stretch of Observable Water The bottom end of this stretch is the largest and deepest pool in about four or five miles of river that is form by a small diversion dam. This massive pool holds alot of fish. The head of the pool is a broad area of moderate current. The water is slower moving and the bottom more regular than the heads of pools on most western waters. Upstream from the head there is a long flat that runs upstream for about a third of a mile. The current is very moderate to slow and the bottom is regular with very few features. It averages about three feet in depth during higher water conditions, about two feet during average conditions and as low as a foot during low water conditions. There are a few depressions in this stretch where the water is about twice the average depth. At the upstream end of this flat there is a run about two hundred feet in length made up of irregular, faster, slightly deeper water. Upstream of the run there is a short area of very shallow rapid/pocket water.   The Head of the Pool The head of the pool always holds some fish, but during nonfeeding times, the fish are all small. During periods of feeding activity, a good number of fish utilize the head of the pool. There is usually a pod of fish just off the near bank in the deepest water just upstream of the pool. These are moderate sized fish although I’ve seen one or two very big ones over the years. This is classic feeding water but it is also the heaviest fished part of this stretch of river. I think that there would be more, better fish using this feeding station but since it is heavily fished and the river has open regulations, I think the better fish that utilize it are regularly caught and kept. Just upstream, the water gains a bit of velocity as it becomes more shallow. There are scattered fish throughout this area using the slightly bigger rocks or slight depressions to deflect the current while they feed on the food being swept by. These trout, as a rule, are better than average sized fish. The largest number of fish that feed in the head of the pool, feed on the sloping bar of shallow water on the far side of the river. The bar starts at the far bank and gradually deepens to about three feet in depth until it drops off into the pool at the head. This bar seldom gets fished because it is where 90%+ of the anglers stand to fish the obvious deep run along the near bank. The fish on this bar will consistently feed in water from one to three feet deep but will move into water just inches deep if the hatch is heavy and the sun isn’t direct. This sloping bar holds all sizes of fish. I caught the biggest fish I’ve caught in the river on this bar. It was caught at sunset on a summer eve, on a large dry in very shallow water where I saw it pushing wakes of water as it fed.   The Long Flat The next upstream stretch is the longest area of this section, almost about a third of a mile in length. It is a very featureless stretch of slow to moderately moving water. Aside from a few scattered fish that have found small niches, there is very little holding water and during nonfeeding times, it is virtually devoid of fish. It is water that in the past, I had always considered to be waste water. However, each morning and evening during the "season" trout move up from the pool to feed in this area. Hatches during the day will also bring fish up from the downstream pool. Some fish set up typical feeding stations but because of the slow current speed in many areas, some of the trout will set up a territory and cruise, more like lake dwelling fish. These fish will typically set up a feeding pattern covering an area typically about the size of large truck’s bed. They’ll feed at their upstream limit, then drift back and to the side to feed again and then repeat this pattern until they reach their downstream limit.  Then the fish will swim back to its starting position and start the cycle over again. In this apparently, featureless area, most of the feeding stations or territories are difficult or impossible to find without directly observing the fish from the elevated bank because there are no obvious visual cues that suggest a good lie. Even when observing the fish in their stations/territories, it is usually impossible to discern what advantage their chosen area has over another seemingly identical area that never holds a fish. This long stretch of water will produce all sizes of fish. Again I’ve observed that the very few "obvious" spots, generally don’t hold the best fish. Again, I believe that this is because the better fish that use these obvious areas are caught and kept. The Top Run and Rapids Section The broken surface of the water in this area makes direct observation impossible except during very low water levels. Most of the observations I’ve made are based on fish rising, bulging or pushing water while feeding as well as by angling for them. There are a few deeper spots in this area as well as some undercuts that also serve as holding water. Even though this area is fished fairly heavily, it consistently produces better fish. However, once again the best fish tend to be in areas that are either neglected by other anglers ie. VERY shallow sections or are difficult to fish ie undercut willows. All the typical lies in this area hold fish. Each seam, back eddy, pocket, depression, etc. has the potential of a fish. Because of its broken and somewhat deeper water, this is the only area in this whole stretch of river that will hold better fish during "off" times. During feeding periods, more fish will move into this area from the downstream pool. I’ve had some exceptional days on this area, especially during hatches. However, most of the best fish I’ve taken from this area have been in the VERY shallow water in the edges of the rapids at the top of the run. Sometimes they’ll feed in water so shallow that I’ve spotted the fish by the bulges of water they pushed upward while they’re feeding. Shallow areas like these are ignored by virtually all anglers. The other spot in this area where I’ve consistently caught good fish is a small eddy behind a log protruding from the bank. This spot is difficult to fish and requires an unconventional approach to cover correctly. These types of feeding lies are not unique to this stretch of river. I’ve found similar unconventional feeding lies in many waters I’ve fished. They are not as readily apparent as "classic" lies but are definitely worth seeking out. Willi

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Question:

Its been a very wet, cold spring so far, here in Wisconsin. But I finally got a chance to fish some moving water. With the river in town still running high I decided to check out some smaller water about 45 minutes from Merrill. The forecast called for rain and thunderstorms in the late afternoon so I left home about 10 am. Ended up on the little stream I have nicknamed the "Mayfly", due its very strong and dependable hatches. It too was running high but not as bad as the Prairie.  Got suited up, set up the rod and waded in. The water felt cold through my waders and checking the temp I found that it was 50deg.. There was a strong south wind which was mitigated somewhat by the surrounding streamside brush. After watching the surface for risers and seeing none I tied on a #12 Gold Ribbed H.E. nymph. The fishing was very slow. Only one very small brookie took,in what usually is a sure fire stretch of riffles and glides.  Working my way upstream I noticed a few #18 BWOs coming off but no rises. Checked the temp again and found it was up to 52deg. (Aren’t new toys fun?)Tried a #18 Adams and didn’t get a look from the trout. Being too lazy to rerig for nymphs again I tied on a #14 Royal Trude and promptly caught two fish, the biggest being 9", about average for this water. Thought I had hit paydirt but then didn’t get another fish to even splash at the fly for several hundred more yards upstream.  As I approached a deep fast run that has given up large fish for me in the past I rigged up with a green yarn indicator supporting a GRHE nymph with a Copper John nymph for a dropper. Promptly found out that casting a leader with three attachments of different densities was a major challenge. For every two or three casts that I got off successfully there was one that tangled the flies and indicator together. No fish came from the run but just upstream I noticed a few Hendrickson mayflies struggling at the surface and then taking flight. Even better I began to pick up fish. Two 9" brookies in fine color came to hand on the GRHE. The Copper John was ignored.  The first splashy rises brought a change in terminal tackle again. A #14 Hendrickson was bent on but ignored by the fish. A brown emerger was tried but no luck. And it began to rain. There were still a few flies on the water but the rises had quit. Struggled into my rain gear (i.e. an emergency rain poncho aka glorified garbage bag with a hood).  Made the decision to head downstream for the car. Cinched on a #12 Hares Ear soft hackle. A few bumps and one small brookie later found me at the head of a small pool. Went to a Royal Coachman streamer. After a few casts I noticed a couple of quiet rises behind an alder branch across the stream from me. As I was lifting the streamer from the water there was a strong swirl and the biggest fish of the trip came to my net, an 11" brookie. The rises behind the alder had stopped but a couple of pools down saw another fish feeding. Tied on the Hendrickson again and a few casts later a brook trout responded to the float. At the tail of the pool there was a pod of fish feeding on the still sporadically hatching Hendricksons. Reached into my pocket to check the water temp and….came up empty. In my contortions to get into the cheap rain poncho I had knocked my new thermometer loose and it was lying somewhere upstream amongst the rocks and trout. Oh well, there were still fish to cast to. The Hendrickson took three more brookies on downstream drifts until another, harder rain shower put the fish down again. Almost back to the car, I tied on a Partridge and Green soft hackle (with flourescent green floss for the abdomen) and immediately hooked the hottest fish of the trip, a fast, jumping 10" brown. A few yards farther down brought its twin to hand. With the rain coming even harder, thunder in the distance and a deadline in town I decided to call it a day. Other than the lost thermometer it was a most successful first day on the water. No big fish but enough action to keep me satisfied with my efforts.  And, as usual, the "Mayfly" lived up to its nickname. G.Cleveland

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Its been a very wet, cold spring so far, here in Wisconsin. But I

<SNIP Very nice report, of what sounds like a very nice trip. Most enjoyable. TL MV

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Question:

I mean yes of course there are words in Cosmo. <ahem! Sorry, but I don’t believe you.  I’m going to the bathroom and check…. Tie string to the kitchen handle first just incase you get lost or your eyesight fails.

No worries, I have a cane and a map.  :)

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Uh, oh! he’s read Cosmo.  the jig’s up, gals!

Read???  You mean there’s words in that?

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he’s read Cosmo.  the jig’s up, gals! Read???  You mean there’s words in that? Is there??? I mean yes of course there are words in Cosmo. <ahem!

Sorry, but I don’t believe you.  I’m going to the bathroom and check….

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She appears squeaky clean and innocent, and yet you and I know it’s all a front. That girl is trouble. Oh, no– you’ve seen through my diabolically clever disguise! I’ve got your number…I know what you apparently innocent women are like. I don’t fall for that sweetness and light, heart and flowers routine. I’m a man of the world, I’ve seen naughty pictures in clothing catalogues and read Cosmopolitan.

Uh, oh! he’s read Cosmo.  the jig’s up, gals! Erminia

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Oh, I love twister. When I was young I played it very often. The last time I played it with my wife, she got pregnant.

from playing twister? Daniel — Teilhard

– Computers in the future may weight no more than 1.5 tons.     -Popular Mechanics, forecasting the relentless march of science, 1949

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I also want to play, you know?

 hi teilhard, my my aren’t you lookin’ mighty fine this morning! jean – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Teilhard The Extraterrestrial

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I also want to play, you know? It’s called ‘Fishing for Alan’ I swear it was Philippa’s fault. She appears squeaky clean and innocent, and yet you and I know it’s all a front. That girl is trouble.

*laughing this has been my sneaking suspicion all along.  same with mary beth.  That wholesome good natured witty thing is just a trick…said the spider to the fly… (but whatta way to go!) jean – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (hi Philippa

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I also want to play, you know? It’s called ‘Fishing for Alan’

I swear it was Philippa’s fault. — Teilhard The Extraterrestrial

Response:

I also want to play, you know? I have twister, Mary Beth

Oh, I love twister. When I was young I played it very often. The last time I played it with my wife, she got pregnant. Oh, I love twister. — Teilhard The Extraterrestrial

Response:

I also want to play, you know? — Teilhard The Extraterrestrial

Response:

I also want to play, you know?

I have twister, Mary Beth

Response:

Will you talk to me now??????? Nope.

If I told you that I never meant to piss you off, would you talk to me? Remember, life shouldn’t have to be like credit report, huh? One week, one day, 5 hours, 39 minutes and 35 seconds. 205 cigarettes not smoked, saving $31.91. Life saved: 17 hours, 5 minutes. — Teilhard The Extraterrestrial

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Will you talk to me now???????

Nope. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Not if you keep testing me. Bruce.

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Will you talk to me now???????

Not if you keep testing me. Bruce.

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Will you talk to me now??????? Not if you keep testing me.

I already tested you and you passed with honours. I haven’t seen much people as positive as you, man, seriously. So, I won’t keep testing you, will you talk to me now? One week, one day, 5 hours, 0 minutes and 37 seconds. 205 cigarettes not smoked, saving $31.81. Life saved: 17 hours, 5 minutes. — Teilhard The Extraterrestrial

Response:

i  would have before so why not now, i just never saw you before today. Oh, thanks. How is your toe? it kinda hurts, i dropped a glass on it.

Ouch!! You must be careful with the tableware!! I mean, do not go around breaking glasses, huh?? LOL. No, seriously, that must hurt quite a bit. Hope you didn’t cut, did you? Now, what is it that kicks up blood circulation? Hot water or warm water? I would go for warm water, feels nicer. Do you have someone to rub your toe? I’d be glad to do it, but I am far away. Anyway, hope it doesn’t hurt much anymore. not that you;re talking to me. Oh, yes, I was, definitely. yeah right! :p

Way, of course! – One week, one day, 4 hours, 40 minutes and 29 seconds. 204 cigarettes not smoked, saving $31.75. Life saved: 17 hours, 0 minutes. – Teilhard The Extraterrestrial

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fuck … ignore me – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i  would have before so why not now, i just never saw you before today. Oh, thanks. How is your toe? it kinda hurts, i dropped a glass on it. not that you;re talking to me. Oh, yes, I was, definitely. yeah right! :p One week, one day, 2 hours, 53 minutes and 44 seconds. 203 cigarettes not smoked, saving $31.47. Life saved: 16 hours, 55 minutes.

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Will you talk to me now??????? — Teilhard The Extraterrestrial

Response:

i  would have before so why not now, i just never saw you before today.

Oh, thanks. How is your toe? not that you;re talking to me.

Oh, yes, I was, definitely. One week, one day, 2 hours, 53 minutes and 44 seconds. 203 cigarettes not smoked, saving $31.47. Life saved: 16 hours, 55 minutes. — Teilhard The Extraterrestrial

Response:

Question:

RW No, I disagree. I think Deanbot stopped posting at just about the time it had become clear that Clinton/Gore’s release from the energy reserve was having the intended effect on prices and supplies. Deanbot was grossly wrong and not about to deal with it. Same old same old as far as the Clinton haters go: if the facts don’t hold up, fade; if you can cover it up it didn’t happen. If you can’t cover it up, say the Demo commies did it. Like Ive said before, it is time to take back the Republican Party from these clowns, and give the American people a good second centrist alternative; Now THAT would be truly conservative. Dave McCain was the one. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The way I see it, Ken, is that I needled Richard Dean so bad with the "Deanbot" stuff that he stopped posting for awhile. I get the feeling, though, that Richard has a sense of humor and doesn’t really hold a grudge about it.

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Dave McCain was the one.

We do agree on something.  Would have liked to see him in.  Maybe next time, hopefully. Natty Before you buy.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah Edwin… I thought it was funny too and nothing more than that… if the NY officials take it as a serious attempt to defraud the system and keep people from voting, that seems pretty weak… I mean when was the last time election day WASN’T on the first Tuesday of November?? I also was amazed at the uproar here in California re the website that was offering to "trade votes"…. because Gore is expected to win in California, a lot of Nader supporters didn’t want to see their votes "wasted" and want to ensure the Green Party gets it’s 5% for federal matching funds…. so they were offering people in other states to sign up for "trade a vote"…. I’ll vote for YOUR candidate in MY state if you’ll vote for MY candidate in YOUR state… The State Attorney General shutdown the website saying that the process was illegal as it altered the voting process and was essentially "influencing vote outcome" … now the AG has come under fire for shutting down the site because that’s in violation of a federal law =) go figure….

I’d heard about that, and I actually wondered if the Nader people weren’t behind it.  I would think someone there would have realized the danger – even he got 5%, it would be charged (and possibly correctly) that it wasn’t a "real" 5%, and therefore, the Greens weren’t entitled to matching funds.   No matter who won, R’s or D’s, neither would be too amused with Nader, and both would likely enjoy seeing him get skewered on his own sword. As to the email, I’ve seen both variants, R’s vote Nov. 7th, and D’s the 8th, and vice-versa, so maybe it’s like "Suppose They Gave an Election and Nobody Voted…." <G TC, R

Response:

I’d heard about that, and I actually wondered if the Nader people weren’t behind it. …

What’s up with this, rw ? Not enough time before the election to implement all the new software ? I was hoping to see a little bit of flyfishing in the new release to make Dickybot appear more lifelike. Frankly, I don’t see that this version of Dickybot is any improvement over the last. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

I’d heard about that, and I actually wondered if the Nader people weren’t behind it. … What’s up with this, rw ? Not enough time before the election to implement all the new software ? I was hoping to see a little bit of flyfishing in the new release to make Dickybot appear more lifelike. Frankly, I don’t see that this version of Dickybot is any improvement over the last.

The way I see it, Ken, is that I needled Richard Dean so bad with the "Deanbot" stuff that he stopped posting for awhile. I get the feeling, though, that Richard has a sense of humor and doesn’t really hold a grudge about it. I do feel kind of bad about it, though, and I’d really like to move on if you don’t mind, or even if you do mind. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d heard about that, and I actually wondered if the Nader people weren’t behind it. … What’s up with this, rw ? Not enough time before the election to implement all the new software ? I was hoping to see a little bit of flyfishing in the new release to make Dickybot appear more lifelike. Frankly, I don’t see that this version of Dickybot is any improvement over the last. The way I see it, Ken, is that I needled Richard Dean so bad with the "Deanbot" stuff that he stopped posting for awhile. I get the feeling, though, that Richard has a sense of humor and doesn’t really hold a grudge about it. I do feel kind of bad about it, though, and I’d really like to move on if you don’t mind, or even if you do mind.

I thought the "Deanbot" stuff was funny, hence my playing along.  I was, and still feel the name stuff is taking offensive liberties a they were politely asked not to do so, as I explained, but it is the who and not the what – I don’t mind friends _joking_ because it is not meant in a derogatory way, but _no one_ on ROFF is close enough as of yet to take such liberties.  I _stopped_ posting for a number of reasons, most having nothing whatsoever to do with particular people on ROFF – there are other demands on the time of a capitalist running dog…ecosystems to get out of balance, trees to cut, etc.<G, and I didn’t realize I needed to explain or "check out" <G.   Now, I will say, I almost didn’t but ROFF on the new system because of the reasons explained elsewhere, geeky wannabe verbal bullies like fartingfairy (my spell checker suggests "Farthingale"….hmm) and puppydog could no more drive me away from where I wanted to be than they could act like gentlemen…. TC, R PS – Farthingale might be a good name for him – although I know no one _named_ "Farthingale," I know some that _could_ be named Farthingale, and Fartingfairy sounds like one of them….

Response:

Now, I will say, I almost didn’t but ROFF on the new system because of the reasons explained elsewhere, geeky wannabe verbal bullies like fartingfairy (my spell checker suggests "Farthingale"….hmm) and puppydog could no more drive me away from where I wanted to be than they could act like gentlemen…. TC, R PS – Farthingale might be a good name for him – although I know no one _named_ "Farthingale," I know some that _could_ be named Farthingale, and Fartingfairy sounds like one of them….

Sir; In the interest of preserving the dignity of this august group, I am afraid I must refrain from telling just what I thi….mph……ahem, what I mphphphph….BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Response:

 Due to an anticipated voter turnout much larger than originally  expected, the polling facilities may not be able to handle the load all  at once.  Therefore, Democrats are requested to vote on Tuesday, November 7, and  Republicans on Wednesday, November 8.  Please pass this message along and  help us to make sure that nobody gets left out.

Response:

Larry, Last nite here in albany Ny, local media had mention of this kooky style email that if floating around. Personally, I think it is quite funny.  But I wondered why it would be mentioned onthe news? turns out NY authorities are taking a grimmer view of the email,even though it seems clearly to be a joke.  Keeping someone from voting is a felony. And Ny authorities are taking this email as an attempt to keep people form voting.  Efforts are afoot to track down the originator of the email. DO with that info what you will.. cheers edwin (apparently, ny authorities have even less of a sense of humor than is visible on ROFF)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Due to an anticipated voter turnout much larger than originally  expected, the polling facilities may not be able to handle the load all  at once.  Therefore, Democrats are requested to vote on Tuesday, November 7, and  Republicans on Wednesday, November 8.  Please pass this message along and  help us to make sure that nobody gets left out.

Response:

Yeah Edwin… I thought it was funny too and nothing more than that… if the NY officials take it as a serious attempt to defraud the system and keep people from voting, that seems pretty weak… I mean when was the last time election day WASN’T on the first Tuesday of November?? I also was amazed at the uproar here in California re the website that was offering to "trade votes"…. because Gore is expected to win in California, a lot of Nader supporters didn’t want to see their votes "wasted" and want to ensure the Green Party gets it’s 5% for federal matching funds…. so they were offering people in other states to sign up for "trade a vote"…. I’ll vote for YOUR candidate in MY state if you’ll vote for MY candidate in YOUR state… The State Attorney General shutdown the website saying that the process was illegal as it altered the voting process and was essentially "influencing vote outcome" … now the AG has come under fire for shutting down the site because that’s in violation of a federal law =) go figure….

Response:

The State Attorney General shutdown the website saying that the process was illegal as it altered the voting process and was essentially "influencing vote outcome" … now the AG has come under fire for shutting down the site because that’s in violation of a federal law =) go figure….

It’s a very interesting situation. The question is whether the websites offer an "inducement" to vote a certain way, which is illegal. I think a case could be made either way. The ACLU is seeking a temporary restraining order on the Attorney General’s action against the web site on 1st Ammendment grounds. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Question:

well if anybody knows the truth it’s you right Bill? right Bill? i mean you are an honest truthful operator right? there’s never been any hint of any other behaviour in your past right? there are no unpaid judgements against you right? no unfavorable court judgements or anything of that nature at all right? just wondering that’s all,i mean person has to be careful who they give their money to don’t they-right?

Response:

Try Baja!  - Catch Report April 22, 2000 La Paz/So. Cerralvo Is.

Question:

Here in Colorado, the fish are skitish enough, without a 110 pound dog swimming overhead.  Over the past weekend, I brought him fishing again.  However, this time I fastened his leash to my waders.  This wasn’t a problem because the water is very low.   This method seemed to work really well.  Any training insight, comments, or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

I would think catching him on a bad backcast would be risky.   As to suggestions, my own german shepherd has gotten a bit old.  I find that  after a good hour or so of splashing and playing she settles down and prefers  to watch me from the bank.  So I spend an hour playing with the dog and hiking  upstream before I start fishing.

Response:

I have two dogs who love to swim after me on a quiet lake if I let them.   When the fishing is bad and can’t get any worse, sometimes I call them out and let them troll beside my canoe.  However, I don’t encourage this if there are other fisherman in the lake.  When I fish on a river, I just leave them in my van.  They are quite happy hanging out for a couple of hours at a time.  Less stress worring about pissing off other guys.   Besides nothing spooks fish more than a couple of splashing muts swiming around, or having them get caught in the current. C. Carefoot – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would like to start bringing my black labrador fly fishing.  I was curious if anyone has any training suggestions, which may help.  Over the summer, I attempted to bring him fishing.  Being a water dog, I couldn’t keep him out of the deepest holes.  Here in Colorado, the fish are skitish enough, without a 110 pound dog swimming overhead.  Over the past weekend,I brought him fishing again.  However, this time I fastened his leash to my waders.  This wasn’t a problem because the water is very low.   This method seemed to work really well.  Any training insight, comments, or suggestions are greatly appreciated. -Josh josh ( a t ) bankersfyi ( d o t ) com

Response:

Me thinks too many folks are buying into this dog/flyfishing c**p you see on the cover of catalogs, books, calendars, etc..  I like the one photo on my TU calendar where this gorgeous lady flyfisher, all decked in Orvis gear, in her twenties, shows a 26" trout to her black lab.  It’s titled "introducing one love to another". Now here’s reality: if there is a woman, she looks like a Jenny-Craig dropout.  The trout she holds is a SNIT (stocked nine-inch trout).  She wears an "Uncle Buck’s Salmon Eggs" t-shirt covered with fish slime, probably from the stringer of fish wrapped around her neck.  The dog is drowning because he can’t swim, and drooling more water than there is in the stream.  The title would be "Rover finally discovers what fresh fish smells like". Voice of experience – tried training Boomer my black lab to go flyfishing. He ran everybody off the stream.  I had to leave before the sheriff arrived. Fishing is for my enjoyment, not Boomer’s.  Let him get his own rod & Jeep.

Response:

This is gonna be another Swayback Story. One of the members of that fine club has a Newfoundland Duck Tolling Retriever bitch.  Nice dog.  Takes her fishing with him often.   Well, one Saturday evening this guy is fishing the water by my house with the Noof.  He get’s into a fish – maybe 17-18".  He gets the fish into netting range, and damned if the dog doesn’t pounce on the poor thing, grab it in it’s mouth, and take it to shore.  Then the noof sets the fish on the gravel and sits there proud as punch.  Believe it or not, the fish was released, relatively unharmed. As I understand these dogs they’re used as duck dogs in Canada.  They have very strong retrieval instincts it would appear.  But I never thought they were that strong. Personally, I find fishing with a dog, especially a water dog to be very annoying. They can go all over the place, and mess up everything.  Maybe Josh’s dog is a better dog than that – I sure hope so anyway. I would like to start bringing my black labrador fly fishing.  I was curious if anyone has any training suggestions, which may help.  Over the summer, I attempted to bring him fishing.  Being a water dog, I couldn’t keep him out of the deepest holes.  Here in Colorado, the fish are skitish enough, without a 110 pound dog swimming overhead.  Over the past weekend, I brought him fishing again.  However, this time I fastened his leash to my waders.  This wasn’t a problem because the water is very low.   This method seemed to work really well.  Any training insight, comments, or suggestions are greatly appreciated. -Josh josh ( a t ) bankersfyi ( d o t ) com

– </chaz Chaz Clover The Paved Earth Society http://www.rmi.net/~clover/pave_the_earth   "Why Not Just Get On With It?"

Response:

Fishing is for my enjoyment, not Boomer’s.  Let him get his own rod & Jeep.

Sorry, but an enjoyable day on the river *always* includes the dog ! My mutt patiently sits on the bank until a trout is hooked, and then dives in to attempt a retrieve. Lots of excitement – and all he asks for is one quick lick of the fish. So what if he ruins that pool, there’s plenty more within a short walk, and more trout than I could catch in a lifetime. It’s seldom I see another fisherman on my stretch of river, and my buddies get a bigger kick out of watching the dog than playing the numbers game in fish caught in a day. Hunting season’s too short, and time too precious to spend outdoors without my pooch! Andrew Banff Alberta

Response:

I would like to start bringing my black labrador fly fishing.  I was curious if anyone has any training suggestions, which may help.  Over the summer, I attempted to bring him fishing.  Being a water dog, I couldn’t keep him out of the deepest holes.  Here in Colorado, the fish are skitish enough, without a 110 pound dog swimming overhead.  Over the past weekend, I brought him fishing again.  However, this time I fastened his leash to my waders.  This wasn’t a problem because the water is very low.   This method seemed to work really well.  Any training insight, comments, or suggestions are greatly appreciated. -Josh josh ( a t ) bankersfyi ( d o t ) com

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I would like to start bringing my black labrador fly fishing.  I was curious if anyone has any training suggestions, which may help.  Over the summer, I attempted to bring him fishing.  Being a water dog, I couldn’t keep him out of the deepest holes.  Here in Colorado, the fish are skitish enough, without a 110 pound dog swimming overhead.  Over the past weekend, I brought him fishing again.  However, this time I fastened his leash to my waders.  This wasn’t a problem because the water is very low.   This method seemed to work really well.  Any training insight, comments, or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

My yellow lab started obedience training at 16 weeks and was fish_able when she turned 5. She knew all the commands and would obey 99% of the time, but you know labs & water :- At 5 I began taking her to the beach fishing on off tides so she wouldn’t bother anyone (she’s very friendly), or when I’d fish more isolated spots in the marshes and rocks. She did fine, I let her roam within reason, she seems to know her limits and is pretty unobtrusive. At 6 I began taking her to a local river that ran behind a barrier beach. I met a friend there and we decided to wade out to a nice looking flat. Gave Cass the ‘Stay’ command and she sat in a spot in the marsh for the next hour, watching us, not moving until I released her, then she went and chased seagulls for a while, but never came near the water we were fishing. My friend, who used to have a yellow lab too, was amazed. I can let her roam like this because she’s very good with hand signals. After I finish fishing I always do the tennis ball thing with her, so she knows that her patience will be rewarded, that seems to help a lot. So now I have a great fishing buddy, but it did take a lot of time and training to get her there. The point where she really started obeying was when I released a striper into a very strong rip and she dove in to retrieve it, she got one hell of a ride out to sea until she got loose. She never did that again, though I don’t necessarily recommend doing this on purpose :-

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would like to start bringing my black labrador fly fishing.  I was curious if anyone has any training suggestions, which may help.  Over the summer, I attempted to bring him fishing.  Being a water dog, I couldn’t keep him out of the deepest holes.  Here in Colorado, the fish are skitish enough, without a 110 pound dog swimming overhead.  Over the past weekend, I brought him fishing again.  However, this time I fastened his leash to my waders.  This wasn’t a problem because the water is very low.   This method seemed to work really well.  Any training insight, comments, or suggestions are greatly appreciated. -Josh josh ( a t ) bankersfyi ( d o t ) com

my dog is a horrible fishing dog, so she spends my fishing time drooling on my couch.  if you really want to fish with your pooch, i would recommend just spending lots of time with it on and near rivers.  go to areas where the fishing is marginal, so you don’t piss other anglers off while training your dog.  practice your casting while working (it might be tough to concentrate on the fish and your dog) on keeping your dog out of the water (if you own a breed that loves the water, it might be tough to keep it out of the water). remember that non-dog owners can be wary of large breed dogs and that a dog along the river isn’t always welcome by other anglers especially if dog owners don’t pick up after their animals.   good luck and good training, chris

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I would like to start bringing my black labrador fly fishing.  I was curious if anyone has any training suggestions, which may help.  Over the summer, I attempted to bring him fishing.  Being a water dog, I couldn’t keep him out of the deepest holes.  Here in Colorado, the fish are skitish enough, without a 110 pound dog swimming overhead.  Over the past weekend, I brought him fishing again.  However, this time I fastened his leash to my waders.  This wasn’t a problem because the water is very low.   This method seemed to work really well.  Any training insight, comments, or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

I don’t have any insight other than once you find out, I’d like to know. I took my lab fishing this past summer and of course every time I casted, he’d jump in after the fly. I tried tying his leash to a willow bush – he bent the willow over so far that he made it into the water again. When I finally got him tied up good, he’d bark every time I casted – not a good thing when you start fishing 5am and there are other people around trying to sleep. Rich

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I’m a dog trainer by profession & there is no easy, magic way to make a "fishing" dog.  An unruly dog has no place on the stream. The first place to start is with basic obedience so the dog learns the commands of heel, sit, down, stay & come as true commands not just requests that the dog follows when it wants to.  This means alot of work at home before ever taking the dog to a stream with you. However, much of it has to do with basic temperament & personality.  I’ve bred, trained, and owned alot of dogs over the years & I’ve only had two that were what I would call true "fishing" dogs.  One was a Golden & the other a Irish Setter.  They would wadeswim at my side while I was fishing or I could put them in a stay on the bank where they would remain no matter what else was going on. The unique characteristic these two had was that they were into fishing. They could stay with me all day without getting distracted the other exciting things that happen such as rabbits, birds, other anglers etc.  They would intensely watch & get very excited when I hooked a fish.  I would land it, show it to them & let them see it swim away. Great companions.  The Irish, though, would get impatient & would bark at me if I hadn’t caught a fish soon enough for her! I don’t take untrained dogs with me fishing. Training has to be done at stream side.  fishing.  This takes time, patience & discipline. It means working with your dog without fishing. Dogs not under strict control should not be off leash and have no business stream side. I don’t have a "fishing" dog, but I do have a young one that shows some real promise. Willi

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Question:

I talked to anglers in Alaska who were fly fishing for kings. They were doing quite well, so I asked them if they had some advice to give, what flies to use etc. They told me that they did not spend time tying flies for kings (egg suckers, fat freddies etc), instead they were using large colorful "Piece-of-yarn" flies. These flies were not really tied in a normal way; instead they used a fairly large short shank hook on which they prepared a specially designed knot, ripped off a piece of yarn, put the yarn on place and finalized the knot. It all took less than a minute and seems a good solution regarding the number of flies you lose when fishing on the bottom… My problem is: I can’t remember how they did the trick. Does anybody have a description for how to make this special knot?   What hook would be the most appropriate? Thanks in advance, Tord Andreasson Sweden

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I talked to anglers in Alaska who were fly fishing for kings. They were doing quite well, so I asked them if they had some advice to give, what flies to use etc. They told me that they did not spend time tying flies for kings (egg suckers, fat freddies etc), instead they were using large colorful "Piece-of-yarn" flies. These flies were not really tied in a normal way; instead they used a fairly large short shank hook on which they prepared a specially designed knot, ripped off a piece of yarn, put the yarn on place and finalized the knot. It all took less than a minute and seems a good solution regarding the number of flies you lose when fishing on the bottom… My problem is: I can’t remember how they did the trick. Does anybody have a description for how to make this special knot?   What hook would be the most appropriate? Thanks in advance, Tord Andreasson Sweden

the knot is the egg or bait loop. it’s been years since I tied one so my instructions may not be quite right; essentially: use Turned up eye hook. put the tippet through the eye and near the bend of the hoo start wrapping relatively loosely back to the eye about 6 wraps –  use a finger tip to hold the wraps in place. Put the tippet end back under the wraps much like a nail knot and pull it tight to snug the loops. To make the fly push slack into the tippet to open a loop over the shank stick the yarn in and tighten up. Clip to shape and size desired. Personally I just tie flies with yarn and threa at home on the same style hooks. Tkaes a minute or two per fly and doesn’t involve any fumbling on stream Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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I have been fishing the Red River below Denison Dam for some years now and can be quite sucessful when the generators are not "on" – discharging water. An average spring morning from 6am to 8am will produce 10 to 20 small stripers averaging 12" to18". Great on a 5 to 8wt. However during the spring, the water is normally being discharged due to spring rains and this is my problem. I have never been able to consistantly catch fish with the water flowing. Under these conditions I use a 10wt sinking tip line and all the normal flies that work with the the "water off". Bait fishing with live shad or minnows is normally great during this water flow so I would expect flyrodding to be the same,-but not for me. I have a boat designed especially for flyfishing the river which is quite safe and effective.

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I have been fishing the Red River below Denison Dam for some years now and can be quite successful when the generators are "off" – not discharging water. An average spring morning from 6am to 8am will produce 10 to 20 small stripers averaging 12" to 18". Great on a 5 to 8wt. However during the spring, the water is normally being discharged due to spring rains and this is my problem. I have never been able to consistantly catch fish with the water flowing. Under these conditions I use a 10wt. with fast sinking tip line and all the flies that work with the water "off". Bait fishing with live shad or minnows is normally great during this type of water flow so I would expect flyrodding to be the same,-but not for me. I have a boat designed especially for flyfishing this river which is quite safe and effective. For a picture of the boat and my son see www.2ducks.com/boats.html Would be happy to take out some experienced flyrodders that can teach me the tricks of this particular aspect of flyfishing. ANY SUGGESTIONS would be appreciated. If you think it may be my fly selection, please let me know. I commonly use clousers of all colors, all sizes, some top water poppers. I have not been able to tie the large 8" flies, but the average striper caught is <20" so I would not think this is the problem. I am not a guide, just an avid sportsman living 5 miles from the dam. Can fish 2 – 3 flyrods out of the boat at a time so bring an experianced friend if you would like. I normally can fish from 5pm to sunset weekdays, Fridays 1pm to sunset, and all day on the weekends. If we don’t catch any fish you can buy my lunch at Burger King. Water temperature is 48 and rising and the floodgates are now open. Have private access to the river.

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Anyone have the conditions on the stream.  I expect to be in Deposit in three weeks and sure would like to hear from someone who’s been there.

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east & west branches are very low ,as is the main branch. Right now march browns are hatching, in a week or so I expect to see Green drakes. The first release is not scheduled untl 6/15. If we don’t get some rain soon fishing will be seriously affected. I will be spending a few days there at the end of the week ,will report on conditiions

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: east & west branches are very low ,as is the main branch. Right now march : browns are hatching, in a week or so I expect to see Green drakes. The : first release is not scheduled untl 6/15. If we don’t get some rain soon : fishing will be seriously affected. I will be spending a few days there at : the end of the week ,will report on conditiions I was on the fly stretch just below Deposit last night.  Very low is right. We got there about 7:00pm, and there was a blizzard of caddis coming off in the riffle just below the main parking access.  Some hendricksons and march browns.  We got into one of our favorite spots and the fish were in a frenzy.  They seemed to be hitting on emergers, since swarms of fish would roil the surface, and you couldn’t see any flies.  Casting into the roils didn’t produce too well.  Eventually, we tried some no hackle hendricksons with a white parachute, and then the action was great until dark.  My partner had a better spot, I think, and is a better fisherman. He caught 5 in half an hour, I had 3.  Largest 16". Also, I heard that the march browns are hatching on the main branch where the water is a little warmer, but the hendricksons are still on the west branch. That’s only word of mouth though. -Jeff

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Quoting lauraoli from a message in rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    If  anyone has sources for    materials at good prices I would be interested in that as well.  Thank    you in advance! Try     Anglers Workshop         P.O. Box 1044         1350 Atlantic         Woodland, Wa. 1044         1-206-225-9445         1-206-225-6359 Jim in Southern California `[1;30;47mRainbow V 1.06 for Delphi – Registered

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I have built two rods.  I bought the cork handle, reel seat, and guides from Angler’s Workshop in Woodland, WA., for the last rod and beleive I got a very good deal from them.  I bought my epoxy glue for the handle, thread and wrapping finish from them.  They have been very helpful.  For books, I have Skip Morris’s and L.A. Garcia’s.  I like both, but if I only had one I would use Skip’s.  They may be in your library.  For tools,  I bought a reamer for the cork handle.  The wrapping finish kit had syringes for measuring and brushes for applying.  I make my own rod support and used a book to develop the trhead tension like Morris explained in his book.  I bought a pen tip and ink as he suggested for the inscription at a stationary store.  Masking tape, tip top adhesive,   and some fine sandpaper and that is about it.  I would get Morris’s book and work with Angler’s Workshop.  I do not think they will try to sell you what you do not need.  Call them at 206-225-9445 and they will send you a catalog.  Both rods have come out nice.  One is a Sage 9′ 6 wt, and the other is a St. Croix 8′6" 5/6 wt pack rod.

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Summary: Keywords: Hello, I am attemping to build my first rod.  I have sent off for a book on building rods, but I am interested in information from some people that  have actually tied your own rod.  What materials and equipment will I just HAVE to have?  I have my blank already.  But I would like a few tips on things to watch for and supplies I need and those I might can do   with out. Also, If  anyone has sources for materials at good prices I would be interested in that as well.  Thank you in advance! Fish whenever you can and dream about it when you can’t! Thanks again, Kelli B. c/o RLaura Oliveri

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