Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns But enough like them for anyone very familiar with either to make a mistake? Well I wouldn’t put myself forth as an expert but I am very familiar with both browns and landlocked salmon, in a couple of cases I’ve had trouble telling very bright browns from landlocks. In waters that sport both atlantics and sea run browns, it can be so difficult to tell them apart that you need to check the volverine (sp?) teeth to be certain, but that’s really the opposite problem, the browns are bright like a salmon, rather than the salmon being dark like a brown. I’ve seen some of the Outlet’s ‘dark’ salmon and they do look a bit like browns, they’ve even got a slight yellowish tint, which is what I think makes most people mistake them for browns.

O.K., I see where the problem lies.  Since the discussion was about salmon born in the river it never occured to me that the browns in question were sea run.  I assumed we were talking about stream resident browns and that the salmon had coloring that matched theirs.  We have browns here that live in Lake Michigan and head up the streams only to spawn.  Having seen a few of these, I understand how one could have trouble distinguishing between them, when fresh from the lake, and salmon.  As a matter of fact, limited as my experience with them is, I’m sure I couldn’t tell them apart. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and they taste muddy. Bearing in mind that the vocabulary of taste is woefully inadequate (and often misleading), I’d say that muddy is a term that applies to all the salmonids to one degree or another.  Don’t get me wrong, I like them myself and am particularly fond of both Atlantic and King (or Chinook) salmon, but they do have a flavor component that is definitely earthy compared to many other, and especially white fleshed, fishes. I once whacked and ate a very nice brookie from the outlet and it certainly seemed ‘muddy’ to me. My biased taste runs to brookies, to me nothing is finer as far as trout go. I dislike landlocks, browns and haven’t had a truely wild or acclimatized rainbow, only the pellet fed stockies that I fished 18 years ago in NH. I much prefer haddock, flounder and swordfish to any trout/salmon, perhaps that’s one of the reasons why I hardly ever keep a fish. I do recall having some smoked salmon in Ireland that was exceptional though. He called them "dirty" salmon. He needs to try a salmon out of the Root river in Racine, WI some time.      :) This made me chuckle. The Root river? Sounds mucky

Rather an apt name considering the focus of this discussion.  The Root is probably the most popular stream in the state for salmon fishing.  As far as I know it also the most productive…..for reasons that are a complete mystery to me.  It is nasty, as is also true of all the streams in the extreme southern Lake Michigan watershed.  Doubtless, they all ran clear 200 years ago when the native prairie plants stabilized the rich silty soil, but all that ended the day the first sodbuster arrived.  Some progress has been made in cleaning them up in the last decade or two but MUCH more needs to be done and it will never happen, land use patterns being what they are here. Some, like the Milwaukee, the Menomonee, and a few of the smaller streams will run fairly clear during extreme low water conditions but they are typically opaque.  Agricultural and urban runoff, industrial pollutants, and sewage combined with an unknowable quantity of point source pollution conspire to make eating anything caught from these waters border on suicidal and yet thousands of people do.  What’s even more perplexing is that there actually IS something to be caught and eaten. Wolfgang

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I’ve seen some of the Outlet’s ‘dark’ salmon and they do look a bit like browns, they’ve even got a slight yellowish tint, which is what I think makes most people mistake them for browns.

This has been an interesting discussion for me; and since I was the one who apparently misidentified the fish, even all the more so.   By now, a week later, I’m no longer sure.   It’s my recollection that the fish I caught had the brownish coloring with the distinctive spots of a brown.   Not knowing there were no browns in the river, I had no doubt at the time that is was indeed a brown trout.   Do these small landlocks also have the spots of a brown, or is my memory going to hell? (knowing full well these are mutually exclusive positions.) Joe F.

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I fished the EO last fall and caught a landlocked that very much resembled a brown in coloration. The guide explained that as the fish adapt to the river, their color changes (I guess like the so called "Black" Atlantics). I fished again this June, and all the landlocks were bright silver. HTH In all knowledge, consider the source. Jim Ray

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great report, Joe.  One thing, however:  the brown trout was actually a land locked salmon that was born in the river.  My first trip up there I caught a couple of these strange looking fish – they looked like browns, but had salmon tails and heads.  I asked a passing guide about it and he told me they were salmon born in the river instead of in the lake.  Later, at a fly show in Wilmington, I asked a Maine Game Warden about the same thing.  He gave me the same info as the guide.  As the fish gets bigger, it loses this trait and becomes more like the rest of the landlocks.  The tail is the big give away – it is slender and more forked than a brown’s. There has been controversy on the Rapid about browns.  Some folks say they are in the river, but it is the same fish that I caught at East Outlet.  No browns in the Rapid. Glad the GRW worked.  It worked on the Rapid also, but in size 18 and with dubbing instead of larva lace. Dave

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 or Gink- reaching Waldo

scott, you misspelt "gink-retching waldo." i’m a loon man…. a happy loonie. –waldo

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Managed to hold onto a 12" landlock long enough to actually land one; and by 5:00, I headed back to the cabin for dinner.   I’m taking it easy; tomorrow is another day in paradise.

Fishing for landlocks in the north woods may not seem like paradise to some folks, but it’s close enough for me. Nice TR. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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This is intriguing.  Salmon bred in the river look enough like browns to fool experienced fishers and one can tell the difference only by shape and or size of head and tail?

Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns and they taste muddy. He called them "dirty" salmon. Flyfish

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This is intriguing.  Salmon bred in the river look enough like browns to fool experienced fishers and one can tell the difference only by shape and or size of head and tail? Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns

But enough like them for anyone very familiar with either to make a mistake? and they taste muddy.

Bearing in mind that the vocabulary of taste is woefully inadequate (and often misleading), I’d say that muddy is a term that applies to all the salmonids to one degree or another.  Don’t get me wrong, I like them myself and am particularly fond of both Atlantic and King (or Chinook) salmon, but they do have a flavor component that is definitely earthy compared to many other, and especially white fleshed, fishes. He called them "dirty" salmon.

He needs to try a salmon out of the Root river in Racine, WI some time.      :) Wolfgang

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Fishing for landlocks in the north woods may not seem like paradise to some folks, but it’s close enough for me. Nice TR.

Reminds me.  I have a reference which says that Gull Lake in southwestern Michigan (no secrets here…common knowledge) has landlock salmon in it.  Anybody here ever fished it? Wolfgang

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At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW?

Goddamn RW

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Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns But enough like them for anyone very familiar with either to make a mistake?

Well I wouldn’t put myself forth as an expert but I am very familiar with both browns and landlocked salmon, in a couple of cases I’ve had trouble telling very bright browns from landlocks. In waters that sport both atlantics and sea run browns, it can be so difficult to tell them apart that you need to check the volverine (sp?) teeth to be certain, but that’s really the opposite problem, the browns are bright like a salmon, rather than the salmon being dark like a brown. I’ve seen some of the Outlet’s ‘dark’ salmon and they do look a bit like browns, they’ve even got a slight yellowish tint, which is what I think makes most people mistake them for browns. and they taste muddy. Bearing in mind that the vocabulary of taste is woefully inadequate (and often misleading), I’d say that muddy is a term that applies to all the salmonids to one degree or another.  Don’t get me wrong, I like them myself and am particularly fond of both Atlantic and King (or Chinook) salmon, but they do have a flavor component that is definitely earthy compared to many other, and especially white fleshed, fishes.

I once whacked and ate a very nice brookie from the outlet and it certainly seemed ‘muddy’ to me. My biased taste runs to brookies, to me nothing is finer as far as trout go. I dislike landlocks, browns and haven’t had a truely wild or acclimatized rainbow, only the pellet fed stockies that I fished 18 years ago in NH. I much prefer haddock, flounder and swordfish to any trout/salmon, perhaps that’s one of the reasons why I hardly ever keep a fish. I do recall having some smoked salmon in Ireland that was exceptional though. He called them "dirty" salmon. He needs to try a salmon out of the Root river in Racine, WI some time.      :)

This made me chuckle. The Root river? Sounds mucky Wolfgang

Flyfish

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns But enough like them for anyone very familiar with either to make a mistake? Well I wouldn’t put myself forth as an expert but I am very familiar with both browns and landlocked salmon, in a couple of cases I’ve had trouble telling very bright browns from landlocks. In waters that sport both atlantics and sea run browns, it can be so difficult to tell them apart that you need to check the volverine (sp?) teeth to be certain, but that’s really the opposite problem, the browns are bright like a salmon, rather than the salmon being dark like a brown. I’ve seen some of the Outlet’s ‘dark’ salmon and they do look a bit like browns, they’ve even got a slight yellowish tint, which is what I think makes most people mistake them for browns.

Caught a few of them on the Rapid – very brown-like but the shape was wrong – Dave explained the difference.  Funny thing, you can catch them in the same water, surrounded by regular landlocks.   Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Back when I worked for the fly shop,

Did you work at MGFS in Greenville?  Damn fine looking lady in there the days I went in.   SWMBO noticed also. Joe F.

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Enough! Enough! Black Flies be Damned! I want – NEED- to go back! Great TR. By the way, what was the flow rate? There in early june it went from 2900 cfs (almost unfishable) to 1200 cfs by the time we left 4 days later. 1200 is much better for wading. Jim Ray

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am often frustrated by my shortage of fishing time; and when an opportunity arises, the stress of impatience can take a lot of fun out of the trip.  So sitting about the cabin in the morning, I planned to take it as leisurely as possible.   The fish would be there when I got there or they wouldn’t; and my determined sloth got me to the river by 2:30 in the afternoon.  Happy kids, happy wife, relaxed daddy. I was heading down to the East Outlet, where the Kennebec is born from the waters of Moosehead Lake.  The river plunges through the dam and immediately becomes a beautiful river, flowing under a steel truss RR bridge, then highway 15, before continuing south through Skowhegan to the ocean.   A dam or two slow the river farther south, and smallies abound, but here below the East Outlet, it flows free through the beautiful, North Woods region and offers big brookies and landlocked salmon. Three other guys were standing around in the parking lot when I arrived, and in a short chat, I found that one of them was a guide, though I’m not sure if the other two were sports.   The guide took them up on the bridge to point out good runs to fish while I rigged up the nice 4 wt. I got from some guy in Germany <g.   The two sports went on upstream, and the guide came back & chatted some more, offering a tip or two on where I should go between the road & the dam.   It’s a big enough river, but I wasn’t keen on sharing the tourist pools with two other fishermen; and thanking him, I headed downriver through the forest. Over dinner in Foxboro a few nights earlier, Dave had shared the location of a deep run a ways downstream; and I managed to see my way through the black flies & mosquitoes to find my way down to the landmark he described. Nice spot.   I’ll fish here.  (In truth, I’d have fished almost anywhere to get out of the woods by then.) Reports from every source had said caddis were the bug du jour.   I scanned the air & water, but saw none, so I went straight for the GRW.   Instead of working on my swap flies, I tied up a dozen or so the day before, and I was ready.   The water level was down from the previous day, but still fast & deep, and a split shot was needed to get the fly to the bottom.   Starting at the tail end of the run, I drifted deep, covering the run, but nary a strike.   Finally snagged & lost the fly, a good time to re-evaluate what you have on.   I knew the GRW was a good fly, so I dropped down a size on both the fly (#16) & tippet (6x) and went back at it, moving upstream a bit. It didn’t take long before I hooked up to a small fish, which to my surprise turned out to be about an 8" brown.  I didn’t know there were browns up that far.   Moving up the run a bit, I was casting into a slick behind a large rock and was soon fast to a definitely larger fish.   15" of silver leapt in front of me, ran briefly out into the river, then allowed himself to be reeled in.  It was seemingly too easy when he took off again downstream. I had a lot of slack water downstream, so, chasing him wasn’t a concern. The thought of him coming off never occurred to me until he did a quick rolling jump and was gone in an instant.  Okay, that was fun. Moving up & out, I set the hook on another nice fish, who showed me his dark back as he leapt vertically to spit me out almost as fast as I hooked him. Hard to say, but probably in the 16" range again.   Short but sweet. Managed to hold onto a 12" landlock long enough to actually land one; and by 5:00, I headed back to the cabin for dinner.   I’m taking it easy; tomorrow is another day in paradise.

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At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other. I could tell you, but then I’d have to kill you. <g See Louie’s submission for the 2000 ROFF fly swap. http://www.paul.goodwinweb.com/flyswap2000/grw.jpg

OK, got it. I think that’s a free-swimming caddis larva pattern. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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OK, got it. I think that’s a free-swimming caddis larva pattern.

At one of the claves LaPlac gave away a whole set of them in various stages. It was pretty cool (I just saw it, I didn’t win it). — Charlie…

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Glad the GRW worked.  It worked on the Rapid also, but in size 18 and with dubbing instead of larva lace.

I was going to tie some 18’s but didn’t have the hooks when I sat down at the vise.   For 14’s, I used the larva lace you sent me a while back, but for the 16’s, the larva lace seemed too bulky & I used V-rib.   Never got around to the dubbing versions (couldn’t find the right color in the box, then dinner was ready, etc.) Joe F.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great report, Joe.  One thing, however:  the brown trout was actually a land locked salmon that was born in the river.  My first trip up there I caught a couple of these strange looking fish – they looked like browns, but had salmon tails and heads.  I asked a passing guide about it and he told me they were salmon born in the river instead of in the lake.  Later, at a fly show in Wilmington, I asked a Maine Game Warden about the same thing.  He gave me the same info as the guide.  As the fish gets bigger, it loses this trait and becomes more like the rest of the landlocks.  The tail is the big give away – it is slender and more forked than a brown’s. There has been controversy on the Rapid about browns.  Some folks say they are in the river, but it is the same fish that I caught at East Outlet.  No browns in the Rapid.

This is intriguing.  Salmon bred in the river look enough like browns to fool experienced fishers and one can tell the difference only by shape and or size of head and tail? There are numerous references….McClane’s "Encyclopedia" comes readily to mind….which detail the differences among various strains of a given species taken from waters where they have long been established.  From what I’ve seen of such illustrations it seems that some of the differences among and between such strains can be greater than what you’ve described above. Makes me wonder just how closely related the land locked salmon and the brown trout are.  Is this a missed opportunity for the lumpers and splitters to thump on one another? Wolfgang

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OK, got it. I think that’s a free-swimming caddis larva pattern.

BTW, while doing some nymph collecting a week or so ago I found green free-swimming caddis larva in my homewater. I had no idea they were there — I’d just assumed that all the caddis larva were of the cased variety, which are numerous. I’m going to have to try some GRWs. I’ve noticed that some fish I keep have stomachs full of what I can only describe as "green goo." I wonder if it’s GRWs? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

I am often frustrated by my shortage of fishing time; and when an opportunity arises, the stress of impatience can take a lot of fun out of the trip.  So sitting about the cabin in the morning, I planned to take it as leisurely as possible.   The fish would be there when I got there or they wouldn’t; and my determined sloth got me to the river by 2:30 in the afternoon.  Happy kids, happy wife, relaxed daddy. I was heading down to the East Outlet, where the Kennebec is born from the waters of Moosehead Lake.  The river plunges through the dam and immediately becomes a beautiful river, flowing under a steel truss RR bridge, then highway 15, before continuing south through Skowhegan to the ocean.   A dam or two slow the river farther south, and smallies abound, but here below the East Outlet, it flows free through the beautiful, North Woods region and offers big brookies and landlocked salmon. Three other guys were standing around in the parking lot when I arrived, and in a short chat, I found that one of them was a guide, though I’m not sure if the other two were sports.   The guide took them up on the bridge to point out good runs to fish while I rigged up the nice 4 wt. I got from some guy in Germany <g.   The two sports went on upstream, and the guide came back & chatted some more, offering a tip or two on where I should go between the road & the dam.   It’s a big enough river, but I wasn’t keen on sharing the tourist pools with two other fishermen; and thanking him, I headed downriver through the forest. Over dinner in Foxboro a few nights earlier, Dave had shared the location of a deep run a ways downstream; and I managed to see my way through the black flies & mosquitoes to find my way down to the landmark he described.   Nice spot.   I’ll fish here.  (In truth, I’d have fished almost anywhere to get out of the woods by then.) Reports from every source had said caddis were the bug du jour.   I scanned the air & water, but saw none, so I went straight for the GRW.   Instead of working on my swap flies, I tied up a dozen or so the day before, and I was ready.   The water level was down from the previous day, but still fast & deep, and a split shot was needed to get the fly to the bottom.   Starting at the tail end of the run, I drifted deep, covering the run, but nary a strike.   Finally snagged & lost the fly, a good time to re-evaluate what you have on.   I knew the GRW was a good fly, so I dropped down a size on both the fly (#16) & tippet (6x) and went back at it, moving upstream a bit. It didn’t take long before I hooked up to a small fish, which to my surprise turned out to be about an 8" brown.  I didn’t know there were browns up that far.   Moving up the run a bit, I was casting into a slick behind a large rock and was soon fast to a definitely larger fish.   15" of silver leapt in front of me, ran briefly out into the river, then allowed himself to be reeled in.  It was seemingly too easy when he took off again downstream.   I had a lot of slack water downstream, so, chasing him wasn’t a concern.  The thought of him coming off never occurred to me until he did a quick rolling jump and was gone in an instant.  Okay, that was fun. Moving up & out, I set the hook on another nice fish, who showed me his dark back as he leapt vertically to spit me out almost as fast as I hooked him. Hard to say, but probably in the 16" range again.   Short but sweet. Managed to hold onto a 12" landlock long enough to actually land one; and by 5:00, I headed back to the cabin for dinner.   I’m taking it easy; tomorrow is another day in paradise.

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At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other.

Green rock worm? — Charlie…

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Great report, Joe.  One thing, however:  the brown trout was actually a land locked salmon that was born in the river.  My first trip up there I caught a couple of these strange looking fish – they looked like browns, but had salmon tails and heads.  I asked a passing guide about it and he told me they were salmon born in the river instead of in the lake.  Later, at a fly show in Wilmington, I asked a Maine Game Warden about the same thing.  He gave me the same info as the guide.  As the fish gets bigger, it loses this trait and becomes more like the rest of the landlocks.  The tail is the big give away – it is slender and more forked than a brown’s. There has been controversy on the Rapid about browns.  Some folks say they are in the river, but it is the same fish that I caught at East Outlet.  No browns in the Rapid.   Glad the GRW worked.  It worked on the Rapid also, but in size 18 and with dubbing instead of larva lace.   Dave

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By the way, what was the flow rate? There in early june it went from 2900 cfs (almost unfishable) to 1200 cfs by the time we left 4 days later. 1200 is much better for wading.

I confess I don’t have the numbers.  The guide with whom I chatted mentioned them, but I don’t remember.   I believe it had been over 2,000 the previous day, but was well under that the days I fished there.   All I can say is that the river was very wadeable, and I was able to reach spots in the center that would probably be suicidal at higher flows. Joe F.

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Reports from every source had said caddis were the bug du jour.   I scanned the air & water, but saw none, so I went straight for the GRW. At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other.

My guess is green rock worm, but it might be great rice wine, or Gink- reaching Waldo Scott

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Reports from every source had said caddis were the bug du jour.   I scanned the air & water, but saw none, so I went straight for the GRW.  

At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other.

I could tell you, but then I’d have to kill you. <g See Louie’s submission for the 2000 ROFF fly swap. http://www.paul.goodwinweb.com/flyswap2000/grw.jpg Joe F.

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Question:

We then played a game of chase me with the bull. We then took turns distracting the bull while the other one retrieved pieces of our gear. After numerous trips and more chases, we had assembled everything we had brought and headed home.

Did it seem funny at the time? It sure is now. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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that is a great story……thanks. reminds me of the time we backpacked near the susquehanna river close to a railroad track. At about 2 am a train came up the valley  and I jumped up out of the sleeping bag. I was sure that our tent was right on the tracks. It wasnt funny then but I sure do laugh about it now. -Walter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ken’s trashing of the fishing in central Illinois and another thread that discussed setting up camp in the dark brought back a memory of a trip I made with a fishing buddy named John when I was in college. After classes one Friday in Spring, we took off for the weekend to fish a couple of feeder creeks.  The Smallmouths had moved into these small stream from the larger rivers to spawn earlier in the year. Some had stayed on to feed on the Chubs that also used the streams for breeding. These small creeks ranged from ten to twenty feet in width and wound their way through farmers’ fields of soybeans, cattle and corn.  Most farmers left stands of trees bordering the creeks. Being the only wooded stands amidst miles of farmers’ crops, these small pockets of nature drew the wildlife. Deer, raccoons, opossums, muskrats, rabbits, pheasants, ducks, hawks and a wide range of songbirds kept us company. In the Spring, the creeks generally held some color but they were clear enough to see several feet into the water and were easy, pleasant wading.  Some of them were spring creeks or at least, spring-like with their flows running through layers of fragmented limestone. They held some disproportionately large fish for such small bodies of water. During the day we caught Smallmouths, Chubs, Rockbass and other assorted panfish, Catfish and an occasional Carp on the tiny lures we tossed with our ultra light gear. But in the evening and early mornings, the bigger Smallmouths, up to four pounds, would smash the weird balsa wood poppers we concocted that we flung at them with our fly rods. John felt that the bigger fish were literate and usually painted "EAT ME" on the bottom of his hoping to lure the bigger fish. These bigger, surface feeding Smallmouths were a kick, especially in streams so tiny. We got to the area we wanted to fish and with our backpacks on, we worked our way upstream. I don’t remember the fishing on that day but it must have been pretty good because it was dark when we decided to set up camp.  We ate a dinner of fresh caught fish next to the stream but because of the darkness and the uneven terrain, we couldn’t find a level place to sleep. At the edge of the wooded area, we came to a barbed wire fence that we climb over to look for level ground. We finally found what we felt was a suitable place, unrolled our sleeping bags and called it a night. Numerous times during the night I was awaken by something. Most times, since I heard nothing, I ignored it and went back to sleep. Several times I sat up to look around, but without my contact lenses, I could see nothing in the moonless night. However, I heard some pounding sounds that trailed off from where we slept. After several such episodes, I was very spooked.  I finally decided to wake up John to see if he had heard anything, but since he slept like a dead man, he had heard nothing, called me an idiot, and told me to leave him alone and go back to sleep. After a very disruptive sleep, I awoke again at dawn and when I looked around, I saw a herd of cows standing in a circle around us. When I sat up, they ran off with pounding hooves. I yelled at John to wake up. We talked about our invasion of the cow’s territory and had a good laugh. We got dressed and when we went to pick up our sleeping bags, we found them encrusted with slimy, green cow shit.  John’s had just one small spot, but my blue bag looked like it had been painted green because of the acrobats I had performed during my fitful night. John gave me some more "shit" as we assembled our gear. Holding the sleeping bags in our arms, we spotted an unusually large "cow" standing alone, about fifty feet across the field who was staring at us with a lowered head. The "cow" then charged us. Dropping our gear, I went one way, John another. The bull chose me to chase but luckily I was close to the fence and got through before the bull reached me. The bull then went after John. John made it to the fence before the bull but as he was making his way through, his shirt got stuck on a barb and the bull ended up giving him a final, not too gentle, nudge through the fence. We then played a game of chase me with the bull. We then took turns distracting the bull while the other one retrieved pieces of our gear. After numerous trips and more chases, we had assembled everything we had brought and headed home. Willi

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Nice one Willi, that is how I prefer my bullshit ! TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de Ken’s trashing of the fishing in central Illinois and another thread that discussed setting up camp in the dark brought back a memory of a trip I made with a fishing buddy named John when I was in college.

<SNIP

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[nice story snipped] your story calls to mind a day when I was fishing a small trout river near where I live last season. Most of the river runs through heavily wooded country but on one section it runs through a couple of acres of pasture. It was on this section where the casting is easier that I was fishing from the shallows, intently absorbed on getting my Greenwells to drift in a convincing fashion past what appeared to be a reasonable sized brownie that was rising every couple of minutes.  I must have been there about 10 minutes or so when I heard a low snuffle type sound and then got that hairs rising on the back of the neck feeling that I was being watched.   I turned around and standing all around me in a tight semi-circle no more than twenty feet away were about 30 or more bullocks and heifers all staring intently at me like they were fascinated by what I was doing. how they had snuck up on me without my hearing and how I had managed to avoid hooking one on the backcast I don’t know. They weren’t doing me any harm, but I discovered its just as off- putting being closely and silently observed by cattle as it is by people.  Each time I waded a bit further upstream my bovine gallery moved along with me.  Ordering them to fuck off and waving my rod at them produced no more than a bit of foot shuffling and guilty looks on their part.  Eventually had to give it up and head for the woods, where the solitude more than compensated for the snagged bushes and trees. traprain

Response:

They weren’t doing me any harm, but I discovered its just as off- putting being closely and silently observed by cattle as it is by people.  Each time I waded a bit further upstream my bovine gallery moved along with me.  Ordering them to fuck off and waving my rod at them produced no more than a bit of foot shuffling and guilty looks on their part.  Eventually had to give it up and head for the woods, where the solitude more than compensated for the snagged bushes and trees. traprain

Hey Trapain,  I get the curious cows   in the meadows  too.  They frightened me as a 9 year old,  but since then I learned that they are just scared/inquisitive of you.    Sounds like you and I fish similar rivers too; wooded sections and then relatively open meadow.  My biggest foe on the river is the pesky flies that persist the open areas in July and August. The little sods fly in your face when you are trying hard to concentrate, etc.  When moving into the wooded sections,  I find a blissful escape,  as the flies don’t seem to plague these areas.

Response:

Ken’s trashing of the fishing in central Illinois and another thread that discussed setting up camp in the dark brought back a memory of a trip I made with a fishing buddy named John when I was in college. After classes one Friday in Spring, we took off for the weekend to fish a couple of feeder creeks.  The Smallmouths had moved into these small stream from the larger rivers to spawn earlier in the year. Some had stayed on to feed on the Chubs that also used the streams for breeding. These small creeks ranged from ten to twenty feet in width and wound their way through farmers’ fields of soybeans, cattle and corn.  Most farmers left stands of trees bordering the creeks. Being the only wooded stands amidst miles of farmers’ crops, these small pockets of nature drew the wildlife. Deer, raccoons, opossums, muskrats, rabbits, pheasants, ducks, hawks and a wide range of songbirds kept us company. In the Spring, the creeks generally held some color but they were clear enough to see several feet into the water and were easy, pleasant wading.  Some of them were spring creeks or at least, spring-like with their flows running through layers of fragmented limestone. They held some disproportionately large fish for such small bodies of water. During the day we caught Smallmouths, Chubs, Rockbass and other assorted panfish, Catfish and an occasional Carp on the tiny lures we tossed with our ultra light gear. But in the evening and early mornings, the bigger Smallmouths, up to four pounds, would smash the weird balsa wood poppers we concocted that we flung at them with our fly rods. John felt that the bigger fish were literate and usually painted "EAT ME" on the bottom of his hoping to lure the bigger fish. These bigger, surface feeding Smallmouths were a kick, especially in streams so tiny. We got to the area we wanted to fish and with our backpacks on, we worked our way upstream. I don’t remember the fishing on that day but it must have been pretty good because it was dark when we decided to set up camp.  We ate a dinner of fresh caught fish next to the stream but because of the darkness and the uneven terrain, we couldn’t find a level place to sleep. At the edge of the wooded area, we came to a barbed wire fence that we climb over to look for level ground. We finally found what we felt was a suitable place, unrolled our sleeping bags and called it a night. Numerous times during the night I was awaken by something. Most times, since I heard nothing, I ignored it and went back to sleep. Several times I sat up to look around, but without my contact lenses, I could see nothing in the moonless night. However, I heard some pounding sounds that trailed off from where we slept. After several such episodes, I was very spooked.  I finally decided to wake up John to see if he had heard anything, but since he slept like a dead man, he had heard nothing, called me an idiot, and told me to leave him alone and go back to sleep. After a very disruptive sleep, I awoke again at dawn and when I looked around, I saw a herd of cows standing in a circle around us. When I sat up, they ran off with pounding hooves. I yelled at John to wake up. We talked about our invasion of the cow’s territory and had a good laugh. We got dressed and when we went to pick up our sleeping bags, we found them encrusted with slimy, green cow shit.  John’s had just one small spot, but my blue bag looked like it had been painted green because of the acrobats I had performed during my fitful night. John gave me some more "shit" as we assembled our gear. Holding the sleeping bags in our arms, we spotted an unusually large "cow" standing alone, about fifty feet across the field who was staring at us with a lowered head. The "cow" then charged us. Dropping our gear, I went one way, John another. The bull chose me to chase but luckily I was close to the fence and got through before the bull reached me. The bull then went after John. John made it to the fence before the bull but as he was making his way through, his shirt got stuck on a barb and the bull ended up giving him a final, not too gentle, nudge through the fence. We then played a game of chase me with the bull. We then took turns distracting the bull while the other one retrieved pieces of our gear. After numerous trips and more chases, we had assembled everything we had brought and headed home.   Willi

Response:

Question:

I have a friend who’s been breaking my balls about how he’s been hooking up consistently with winter largemouths.(He’s a spin fisherman)The winters haven’t been very cold in the northeast lately so many lakes and ponds have yet to freeze over.I’ve tried a few different things with my flytackle but I haven’t been able to hook up.I did get a bass once two years ago,while fishing for hatcheries,using a large dry with a hares ear dropper size 12.If anyone out there is having sucess in this area I’d appreciate the info.I want to shove a nice size bass right in that smug bastards face.

Response:

Even if the water hasn’t frozen, you need to go deep and slow for these northern winter largemouths. Not really what you would call typical fly-fishing.  You might want to try a slow sinking line.  It would take forever to get your fly down into the strike zone but unlike a fast sink line you’ll be able to fish slowly and still keep the fly in the fish zone once it gets down there. A Carolina rigged plastic worm or salamander would be my recommendation. Mu

Response:

I am in the south fishing in temps of the 40’s.Tp our bass thats the same as hanging out wit Ms. Pauls. I go to a pattern I tie called a Crystal Puff. It is White long cactus chanille head with X lg bead chain eyes, with a tail of whit bucktail and crystal flash with wide white hackle feathers (3 together on each side) or my favorite silver badger feathers. All of this on a mustad 2/0 – 3/0 hook #7766 Fish it slow with quick darts. On days that the temp does rise look for flats and shoals with dark bottoms with EZ access to deep drop offs. They will come up to warm up there. Good luck. It has been working for me.

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Dear All, I am considering a move to albany new york.  Aside fromit being incredibly cold for a good part of the year, i know nothing about the outdoor possibilities there.  I do like to fish a lot, and did so quite regularly in north carolina mountains while in grad school. can someone tell me please, what the fly fishing is like up in the albany area ( ad I am considerein driving as much as 3-4 hours if need be from the area to fish, that is what i did in nc). any advice, or ideas on books to look at, would be helpful. many many many thanks to al, edwin aguilar Considering that Albany gives you tremendous access to Vermont, Lake Champlain, and the Catskills (about 2 hrs. south), you’ll probably not have enough time to get to it all!

"You not only want to be considered the best at what you do. You want to be the only one who does what you do." Jerry Garcia

Response:

can someone tell me please, what the fly fishing is like up in the albany area ( ad I am considerein driving as much as 3-4 hours if need be from the area to fish, that is what i did in nc).

Within that range you have your choice of: — Catskill Mts. (trout) — Adirondack Mts. (trout) — Finger Lakes (bass and some trout) — Lakes Ontario and Champlain (salmon, walleye, lake trout.) — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

Response:

I live about 1hr south of Albany and there are great fishing opportunities in literally every direction.  Some are literally right in your backyard like the upper end of Schoharie Creek, Schenevus Creek (about 40minutes South on I-88) and Charlotte Creek a little further down the road. There are also alot of "Blue Ribbon" streams within comfortable driving distance in the Adirondacks, Vermont and Catskills. Some good reference books I got alot of use from are "Good Fishing in the Catskills" and "Good Fishing in the Adirondacks"  not sure of the authors but if your interested just shoot me an e-mail and I’ll be glad to forward the Author and ISBN#’s. Good Fishing C. Segina

Response:

The auther of those books is Jim Capposela. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I live about 1hr south of Albany and there are great fishing opportunities in literally every direction.  Some are literally right in your backyard like the upper end of Schoharie Creek, Schenevus Creek (about 40minutes South on I-88) and Charlotte Creek a little further down the road. There are also alot of "Blue Ribbon" streams within comfortable driving distance in the Adirondacks, Vermont and Catskills. Some good reference books I got alot of use from are "Good Fishing in the Catskills" and "Good Fishing in the Adirondacks"  not sure of the authors but if your interested just shoot me an e-mail and I’ll be glad to forward the Author and ISBN#’s. Good Fishing C. Segina

Response:

Dear All, I am considering a move to albany new york.  Aside fromit being incredibly cold for a good part of the year, i know nothing about the outdoor possibilities there.  I do like to fish a lot, and did so quite regularly in north carolina mountains while in grad school. can someone tell me please, what the fly fishing is like up in the albany area ( ad I am considerein driving as much as 3-4 hours if need be from the area to fish, that is what i did in nc). any advice, or ideas on books to look at, would be helpful. many many many thanks to al, edwin aguilar

Response:

Question:

Steve, Bud built a highly modified 2+2 Sportsman; larger cabin, Super Cub wings, extended fuselage, and Ford 3.8L V-6 engine as the power plant. The Sportsman is, in theory, a reproduction of the PA-14 Family Cruiser; four place cross country plane- good, solid, load carrying cub. I also had a set of plans and was starting construction as Bud was finishing construction. My study of the prints found many areas that did not line-up and calls to WagAero were met with a couldn’t-care-less attitude. When I asked Bud about the lack of support he took off on a 20 minute tirade about their extreamly poor responce to questions. I have not found any improvment in technical support  since WagAero changed ownership. I set aside the plans at the moment Dave Blanton came out with the "V-6 STOL" plans/kit. The V-6 STOL is also a reproduction of the PA-14 Family Cruiser but evolved from a very different direction than the 2+2. The V-6 STOL starts with a salvaged TriPacer- the fuselage is lengthened, the wings are lengthened, it is converted to tailwheel configuration and the Ford 3.8L V-6 engine installed. The end result is acheived much more quickly that the plans built 2+2 (Blanton used to call it a "kit" because all the parts were there- you just had to do a little re-assembly- if you stick to the Blanton prints it can be built in 500 hours). Dave D. Blanton V-6 STOL and Ford 3.8L Conversion Info Packet 662 S. Governour Wichita, KS 67207 316-686-8500 This was the address and phone published in the December ‘96 issue of KITPLANES. There are several hundred V-6 STOL builders and fliers out here so the support and information exchange through the newsletter is good–better than Wag Aero’s tech help. WagAero will supply you with a list of plans purchashers but I found only a couple who had finished it. Email your questions to Bud, email your Smail address to me and I’ll send you a sample of the newsletter. And if you wish, when I send you the sample, I’ll include the name of another 2+2-with-Ford-engine builder who’s been flying for several years(he modified his plans less than Bud did). One last comment, take a look at the Bearhawk homebuilt as another alternative to the Family Cruiser route. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d like to know the following things from people who have built or flown this design: 1) Why did it interest you in the first place? 2) Did it meet your expectations? Building and/or flying… 3) How long did it take to build (years duration, hours of effort)? 4) Did it perform as claimed? 5) What engine did you use? 6) Who did you go to for help when you couldn’t figure out what was intended by reading the plans? 7) Would you do it again? If no on #7, what would you do instead. Here’s why I’m interested in this design: 1) It’s plans built, not kit built. 2) It’s a conventional design with reasonable performance claims. 3) It looks like it would fit me, my small wife, and two kids, one of whom will be a teenager before I could finish. 4) I would like to experiment with alternative wing designs (STOL) and engines. This design could easily be built to plans, then once proven out, the wings and/or engine changed. In other words, the design doesn’t appear to be highly optimized to the designer’s choice of either of those items, and tube and fabric designs are more easily cut and patched than sheet metal or plastic designs. Ultimately, I’d like to end up with something like a small version of the Sherpa. I’ve seen it up close, and it’s a bit too grandiose for me, but I like a lot of the ideas. Steven Estergreen, MSME, PE Mulino, OR PP,ASEL,Instrument,Tailwheel,Complex

– Bruce A. Frank, Editor         "Ford 3.8L Engine and V-6 STOL               (-o-)/       AIRCRAFT PROJECTS CO.                ___/          Manufacturing parts & pieces               /             for homebuilt aircraft, TIG welding              O       O — Bruce A. Frank, Editor         "Ford 3.8L Engine and V-6 STOL               (-o-)/       AIRCRAFT PROJECTS CO.                ___/          Manufacturing parts & pieces               /             for homebuilt aircraft, TIG welding              O       O

Response:

Steve, Bud built a highly modified 2+2 Sportsman; larger cabin, Super Cub wings, extended fuselage, and Ford 3.8L V-6 engine as the power plant. The Sportsman is, in theory, a reproduction of the PA-14 Family Cruiser; four place cross country plane- good, solid, load carrying cub. I also had a set of plans and was starting construction as Bud was finishing construction. My study of the prints found many areas that did not line-up and calls to WagAero were met with a couldn’t-care-less attitude. When I asked Bud about the lack of support he took off on a 20 minute tirade about their extreamly poor responce to questions. I have not found any improvment in technical support  since WagAero changed ownership. I set aside the plans at the moment Dave Blanton came out with the "V-6 STOL" plans/kit. The V-6 STOL is also a reproduction of the PA-14 Family Cruiser but evolved from a very different direction than the 2+2. The V-6 STOL starts with a salvaged TriPacer- the fuselage is lengthened, the wings are lengthened, it is converted to tailwheel configuration and the Ford 3.8L V-6 engine installed. The end result is acheived much more quickly that the plans built 2+2 (Blanton used to call it a "kit" because all the parts were there- you just had to do a little re-assembly- if you stick to the Blanton prints it can be built in 500 hours). Dave D. Blanton V-6 STOL and Ford 3.8L Conversion Info Packet 662 S. Governour Wichita, KS 67207 316-686-8500 This was the address and phone published in the December ‘96 issue of KITPLANES. There are several hundred V-6 STOL builders and fliers out here so the support and information exchange through the newsletter is good–better than Wag Aero’s tech help. WagAero will supply you with a list of plans purchashers but I found only a couple who had finished it. Email your questions to Bud, email your Smail address to me and I’ll send you a sample of the newsletter. And if you wish, when I send you the sample, I’ll include the name of another 2+2-with-Ford-engine builder who’s been flying for several years(he modified his plans less than Bud did). One last comment, take a look at the Bearhawk homebuilt as another alternative to the Family Cruiser route. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d like to know the following things from people who have built or flown this design: 1) Why did it interest you in the first place? 2) Did it meet your expectations? Building and/or flying… 3) How long did it take to build (years duration, hours of effort)? 4) Did it perform as claimed? 5) What engine did you use? 6) Who did you go to for help when you couldn’t figure out what was intended by reading the plans? 7) Would you do it again? If no on #7, what would you do instead. Here’s why I’m interested in this design: 1) It’s plans built, not kit built. 2) It’s a conventional design with reasonable performance claims. 3) It looks like it would fit me, my small wife, and two kids, one of whom will be a teenager before I could finish. 4) I would like to experiment with alternative wing designs (STOL) and engines. This design could easily be built to plans, then once proven out, the wings and/or engine changed. In other words, the design doesn’t appear to be highly optimized to the designer’s choice of either of those items, and tube and fabric designs are more easily cut and patched than sheet metal or plastic designs. Ultimately, I’d like to end up with something like a small version of the Sherpa. I’ve seen it up close, and it’s a bit too grandiose for me, but I like a lot of the ideas. Steven Estergreen, MSME, PE Mulino, OR PP,ASEL,Instrument,Tailwheel,Complex

– Bruce A. Frank, Editor         "Ford 3.8L Engine and V-6 STOL               (-o-)/       AIRCRAFT PROJECTS CO.                ___/          Manufacturing parts & pieces               /             for homebuilt aircraft, TIG welding              O       O

Response:

Steve, I have a 2 + 2 that I built and fly on wheels(26×10.5×6), skis(alum. homebuilt) and floats(Full Lotus 2250’s).  I made a number of changes including a wing kit from the NorthStar (super cub) from Custom Flight Components.  If you would like any more info on changes etc I made e-mail me direct. rick c- I’d like to know the following things from people who have built or flown this design: 1) Why did it interest you in the first place?

side by side seating for 2 with plenty of cargo space in a plans built design. 2) Did it meet your expectations? Building and/or flying…

Yes, especially with the NorthStar wing. 3) How long did it take to build (years duration, hours of effort)?

2200 man hours not counting building the float rigging or skis. 4) Did it perform as claimed?

Pretty hard to say as I use it for bush flying and use a 8244 Borer prop and any of the gear choices I use are high drag, so cruise is in the toliet, take off etc is fine, 600 ft gravel bars are my minumum for fishing and 800 ft. hauling out hunting gear and meat.  1/2 miles lakes fine.  One thing I can say is no way 1050 lbs is realistic empty weight.(as I recall this is Wag-Aero claim) I know of none that came out this light.  Lightest one I know about was a non-electric, narrow deck 150 powered, no interior, stock super cub wing and it went 1080.  Mine with admitted heavier NorthStar wing (but worth it) and spartan interior, full electric, min. radio and gps is 1279.  Good news is gross weight is not fixed at plans figures but you are on your own here. Anyway I have talked to Canadians that claim 200 hp versions are regularly used there at 2600lbs, I have seen ones that were licensed at 2450 lbs, we use 2400 on floats and 2250 on wheels but the spars have doublers, etc. 5) What engine did you use?

160 lyc. but should have sprung for 180 or 200, do have Ellison and crossover exh. keep thinking about nitros (sp?) injection or a blower, maybe build a crank fire ign. 6) Who did you go to for help when you couldn’t figure out what was intended by reading the plans?

Not Wag-Aero found them worthless, but I built it when Wagner owned it, have no idea if it has changed. Best bet is find a builder or engineer it yourself. 7) Would you do it again?

Yes, only thing I don’t like is access due to door design, can see that when I get older (say what?) this may be a problem.  Lots of highly aclaimed designs out there but for a reliable utility aircraft 2+2 is hard to beat, by the way if you don’t want to build a fuselage from scratch you might consider the Bushmaster, v-6 Stol (but with a lighter engine – Sorry Bruce!) route of using an extended PA-20/22 fuselage and put a good wing design on it(NorthStar – sorry to keep bringing it up but am really pleased with it).  You will have a little better access, wider cabin and essentially same aircraft.  This is what I might consider today. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If no on #7, what would you do instead.

Response:

I’d like to know the following things from people who have built or flown this design: 1) Why did it interest you in the first place? 2) Did it meet your expectations? Building and/or flying… 3) How long did it take to build (years duration, hours of effort)? 4) Did it perform as claimed? 5) What engine did you use? 6) Who did you go to for help when you couldn’t figure out what was intended by reading the plans? 7) Would you do it again? If no on #7, what would you do instead. Here’s why I’m interested in this design: 1) It’s plans built, not kit built. 2) It’s a conventional design with reasonable performance claims. 3) It looks like it would fit me, my small wife, and two kids, one of whom will be a teenager before I could finish. 4) I would like to experiment with alternative wing designs (STOL) and engines. This design could easily be built to plans, then once proven out, the wings and/or engine changed. In other words, the design doesn’t appear to be highly optimized to the designer’s choice of either of those items, and tube and fabric designs are more easily cut and patched than sheet metal or plastic designs. Ultimately, I’d like to end up with something like a small version of the Sherpa. I’ve seen it up close, and it’s a bit too grandiose for me, but I like a lot of the ideas. Steven Estergreen, MSME, PE Mulino, OR PP,ASEL,Instrument,Tailwheel,Complex

Response:

Question:

I agree with whoever said test test test. i know testing helps me feel better knowing what my sugar is. I also think it’s an individual matter for each to find. I know it’s been like that for me. I try to raise my blood sugar before my workouts (aerobic classes usually) so that I don’t have to worry about it during and after the wrokout. I usually have juice or fruit and it works to raise it enough so I don’t have to worry, and then i usually have dinner after. When I go out for bike rides alone I do the same thing. If it helps, I kept an article about managing blood sugar that i read in the magazine Diabetes Self Management. I thought it was a very good article that gave lots of examples about blood suagr during exercise and what to do about food and insulin. It was in the November December 1996 issue. The title was Balancing Blood Sugar and Exercise by Richard Weil. I don’t know if this is in the library, but there is a number in the magazine that i guess you could call to request a copy or maybe a back issue. The number is 800 234-0923 (that’s the subscription service). There’s also a number for advertising [212] 989-0200. I would try both numbers. The article really cleared up some things for me so I recommend it to you. I don’t work for the magazine, but I do think the article was helpful. Good Luck, Tina

Response:

There are also all too many stories of a lone person who goes out into the woods never to return.  Diabetes is rarley a factor in these stories. Bears, Clifs, Falling rocks, Pitfalls, Snakes, Ect, Those are factors, Diabetes almost never.

Much more common are:   Falls causing sprains/broken bones: you lose your mobility, then you’re in trouble. Happens even without ‘cliffs’.   Inadequate clothing and/or shelter (exposure, hypothermia).   Insufficient food intake/food supply (starvation).   Insufficient water. – - – The root cause of these problems is usually foolish overconfidence. The one which is highly affected by DM is insufficient food intake,   which I have suffered a few times. Test often! Take lots of extra food, extra drugs, an entire extra test kit.   Experience is critical. DON’T try a 5-day in the middle of no where until you have a lot of solo overnights and 2-nighters under your belt.

Response:

   Newsgroups: misc.health.diabetes    Ok, me again, needing advice. It seems that this is my first summer    on Insulin. After my expirience with that nasty hypo seizure on    vacation, I’m leary of engaging in certain outdoor avtivities alone. Actually you have answered your own question… You said "ALONE" The simple soultion is as follows 1: Always have a ready source of "Quick" glucose (Cake Iceing tubes)    Gluco gell, Gluco Tabs, Regular (not diet) pop,  Orange juice 2: (And this is perhaps the more improtant) always have a partner who    KNOWS you are diabetic and KNOWS the signs of HYPO in you. Now if you happen not to be a diabetic (As many are not) Then #2 is becomes #1 and delete all after PARTNER.  That is right… Man was not ment to be alone, Man was ment to be partnered (No this is not a religious or moral statment)  but there have been many, many, many stories of a couple of people who went out in the woods and one became injured.  The other saved his/her life.  There are also all too many stories of a lone person who goes out into the woods never to return.  Diabetes is rarley a factor in these stories. Bears, Clifs, Falling rocks, Pitfalls, Snakes, Ect, Those are factors, Diabetes almost never. So the easy answer is DO NOT HIKE ALONE,  Take a main squeze or hiking partner "Nothing adds excitement like something that is none of your business" A professor is one who talks in someone else’s sleep. Net-Tamer V 1.08X – Registered

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, me again, needing advice. It seems that this is my first summer on Insulin. After my expirience with that nasty hypo seizure on vacation, I’m leary of engaging in certain outdoor avtivities alone. I love to hike into the woods and go flyfishing. Or sometimes go to isolated rocks on the ocean for some surf fishing etc. Is the simple answer like this: "We’re diabetic, we can do anything,…if you test every hour or 2"?? Also, how do some of you handle… ah let’s say mountain climbing? Your metabolism goes from slow to maximum? How do you carbo load enough to handle that? Trial and era maybe? Test on the trail every 20 mins? My wife is also a bit nervous everytime I leave the house on any journey (after witnessing my seizure). I’m having a tough time because I have an very avtive life and find this area of insecurity intensly frustrating. Thoughts?                                         Terry Weir

When you know let me in on the secret.  Last winter I went out one weekend alone to go hiking and waterfall viewing.  One time I was about 3 miles into a lonely trail when it hit.  I had taken extra carbo before the hike (granola bars), and luckily I had a sack of candies.   The entire walk back it was one candy after another.  I must have injested over 100 grams carbo by the time I got back to civilization.   So what’s the answer?  Eat as you go?  Doesn’t sound fun to me.  Less insulin?  I’ve read that you should actually take a little insulin before you excercise, to make sure your body doesn’t starve of glucose and start keto.  Maybe both…..  Trial and error seems the only way for now.

Response:

This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, me again, needing advice. It seems that this is my first summer on Insulin. After my expirience with that nasty hypo seizure on vacation, I’m leary of engaging in certain outdoor avtivities alone. I love to hike into the woods and go flyfishing. Or sometimes go to isolated rocks on the ocean for some surf fishing etc. Is the simple answer like this: "We’re diabetic, we can do anything,…if you test every hour or 2"?? Also, how do some of you handle… ah let’s say mountain climbing? Your metabolism goes from slow to maximum? How do you carbo load enough to handle that? Trial and era maybe? Test on the trail every 20 mins? My wife is also a bit nervous everytime I leave the house on any journey (after witnessing my seizure). I’m having a tough time because I have an very avtive life and find this area of insecurity intensly frustrating. Thoughts?

You are talking essentially about exercise so I have attached my standard exercise answer.  There is tremendous variability in diabetics response to exercise and the response is also affected by your type of diabetes and medication.  Some people can get along with only minor adjustments in their routine and some of us have to do quite a bit of compensation.  The more you learn about diabetes, your particular flavor of it, how the body normally works, and how a diabetics body works, the better you will be able to adjust to abnormal situations be they changes in activity, diet, workshifts or whatever.  Diabetics can do pretty much what ever they want to.  The first diabetic to swim the English Channel was just in the news. That doesn’t mean, however, that it you don’t have to put extra effort into it to deal with the effects of having diabetes.  When I think about doing things with diabetes, I often remember the old joke about Ginger Rogers.  She did everything Fred did, but backwards wearing high heels. — Charles Coughran Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="EXERCIS5.TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="EXERCIS5.TXT" The best way to deal with problems associated with diabetes and exercise begins with understanding of what goes on in the metabolic system of normal people and what the differences are for diabetics. Only with such understanding can you make intelligent choices about pharmacological tactics. Relying on rules of thumb can cause more problems it solves because of the wide variability of individual responses and the wide variety of diseases that fall under the rubric of diabetes. Not to mention, I have seen postings where the rules of thumb were clearly misunderstood. While the following is intended for those who take insulin, it may assist those on oral medications as well. Exercise in this context means extended aerobic activity, say a minimum of 20 minutes of jogging. This is a somewhat simplified account but I think it captures the most important aspects for exercise related bg control. Comments encouraged. When a normal person starts to exercise, the insulin output of his pancreas goes down. At first blush, this seems backward since the muscles are working hard and therefore require more glucose to be transported from the blood into the cells. There are two reasons more glucose can be transported with less available insulin. The first is that during exercise insulin becomes much more efficient. The mechanism of this effect is not fully understood, but it helps overcomes the reduction in circulating insulin. Second, exercise activates non-insulin mediated glucose transport pathways. These pathways are not sufficient to handle the load in the absence of insulin, but do increase the effective insulin efficiency. When insulin levels decline relative to the counterregulatory hormones — glucagon, epinephrine, norepinephrine, growth hormone, and cortisol — the liver is stimulated to release stored glucose. The blood glucose that is being transported into the cells is replaced by that from hepatic stores. It is this hormonal balance system that keeps the levels of blood glucose in the normal narrow range during exercise. For those of us who inject insulin, the first problem is obvious. Our circulating levels of insulin do not react to exercise. Absent any correction, when the muscles demand glucose and insulin becomes more efficient our blood glucose plummets and we become hypoglycemic. This is the reason for a commonly encountered prohibition to not schedule exercise when your insulin is peaking. The higher the level of circulating insulin, the more pronounced the effect. One solution is to reduce our circulating insulin levels by reducing insulin intake. Here specific advice starts to be difficult due to the wide variety of insulins, regimens, and individual variability. The spectrum spans from a Type II who takes a little NPH to help his beta cells out to a c-peptide free pumper. I have spoken to diabetic runners whose tactics would put me in an ambulance, even though our situations seem to be very similar. You see a lot of advice of the form, "reduce your insulin 2 units for every hour of strenuous exercise". This kind of advice ignores real world variability and is sometimes much worse than useless. Clearly, someone who takes one shot/day has a much more limited ability to adjust circulating insulin levels than someone using multiple injections or a pump. The other approach is to increase blood glucose levels by eating carbohydrates timed to arrive at the blood stream in the form of glucose when it is needed. The easiest way to do that is usually to eat fast acting carbohydrates during or immediately preceding exercise. Again, there are rules of thumb around about so many grams of carbohydrates for a particular length of exercise at some defined level. Again, they seem to be swamped by individual and circumstantial variability. Some of us do a combination of both and pump up our bg levels somewhat before exercise and reduce insulin levels to keep things on an even keel. The bottom line is to make careful adjustments and test, and test, and test, to find out how things work for your particular body. So much for too much insulin. What happens when the circulating insulin level is too low? When levels are so low that even the increase in insulin efficiency doesn’t overcome the defect, glucose isn’t transported into the cells. Worse, since insulin levels are low the liver continues to pump glucose into the blood. The result is bg levels rise with exercise. The muscles get stressed due to lack of fuel and the metabolism of fats kicks in, ketones start being produced and the danger of ketosis or ketoacidosis looms. This is the basis for another rule of thumb which is often misunderstood. The rule is usually stated "don’t exercise when your bg is above 240 mg/dl (13.3 mmol/l) and ketones are present in the urine". This makes sense because those are signs that you have inadequate insulin supplies — that’s how many of us got diagnosed. Exercise in those circumstances will make things worse, not better. On the other hand, if you are 300 mg/dl (16.7 mmol/l) because you just drank a large regular cola by mistake with lunch, exercise is a great way to bring that bg down in a hurry. Why your bg is elevated is just as important as the fact of the elevated level when deciding whether or not exercise is contraindicated. The 240 is also a somewhat arbitrary number. Some people start throwing ketones at significantly lower levels. In short: avoid exercise if your insulin level is too low. Do exercise if you are sure your insulin level is adequate but your blood glucose is too high. Exercise also produces effects at longer time scales. Sometime after exercise, there is often a take up of blood glucose by the muscles to replenish depleted stores. This most often occurs an hour or two after exercise, but has been reported in the range of 1/2 hour to 48 hours. Again, as is the case during exercise, artificially high insulin levels will lead to hypoglycemia. The last rule of thumb is to watch for hypoglycemia after exercise. *SPECULATION BEGINS HERE* A problem some of us encounter from time to time is a post exercise bg spike. Blood glucose readings will be reasonable after exercise but sharply elevated a few hours later. It is my speculation that this represents circulating insulin levels that were adequate to deal with exercise induced blood glucose demand with its attendant insulin efficiency increase, but too low to deal with the post exercise demand when insulin efficiency has lowered somewhat. It has been my experience that post exercise elevated bg levels respond to much less insulin than would be required in a more normal situation. It appears that insulin efficiency falls off after exercise at some rate and you can be on the correct side of the curve during exercise and the wrong side after. This hypothesis is the best of a couple I have come up with. *SPECULATION ENDS HERE* Regular exercise over time scales of weeks or months can reduce overall insulin requirements. In addition, as muscles become trained and improve their internal storage, it feeds back into the amount of glucose demand present during exercise, and thus into the entire control cycle. Diabetes makes exercise, and almost everything else, harder. But, hey, if it was easy it wouldn’t be any fun There are two very good, readable books from which you can get more information. The better is Campaigne and Lampman, _Exercise in the Clinical Management of Diabetes_. Almost as good is _The Health Professional’s Guide to Diabetes and Exercise_ edited by Ruderman and Devlin and published by the American Diabetes Association.

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Ok, me again, needing advice. It seems that this is my first summer on Insulin. After my expirience with that nasty hypo seizure on vacation, I’m leary of engaging in certain outdoor avtivities alone. I love to hike into the woods and go flyfishing. Or sometimes go to isolated rocks on the ocean for some surf fishing etc. Is the simple answer like this: "We’re diabetic, we can do anything,…if you test every hour or 2"??

Frequent testing is not necessary.  I engage in all types of strenuous and active things (skiing, hiking, bicycling, snokling, rock climbing, etc.) with no testing at all during the activity. My method is this:  take into consideration your level of activity, adjust your insulin accordingly, and bring along lots of sugary things to compensate.  Of course, this only works if you are relatively good judge (like I am) of when your blood sugar is low. For example, when I go skiing, I’ve found that after eating a regular breakfast and taking a normal dose of insulin in the morning, that I can eat lunch without taking any insulin during the day’s activities. Then I eat dinner and take a normal dose.  It so happens that the decrease in my blood sugar corresponding to my increased activity is almost exactly balanced by the lunch I eat (usually it is not a very large lunch, though, because the ski food prices are so high). I should say that I am on an ultralente/Humalog regimine (I split the ultralente dose into morning and evening, and then just take the required amount of Humalog right before I’m going to eat something). Also, how do some of you handle… ah let’s say mountain climbing? Your metabolism goes from slow to maximum? How do you carbo load enough to handle that? Trial and era maybe? Test on the trail every 20 mins? My wife is also a bit nervous everytime I leave the house on any journey (after witnessing my seizure). I’m having a tough time because I have an very avtive life and find this area of insecurity intensly frustrating. Thoughts?

When I do something like this, I just don’t take any of the regular insulin (but keep the ultralente the same).  Often I still go low and need to eat something. If you can’t tell when you are getting low, then you are screwed and this easy method (make sure you have enough insulin so you don’t go hig and just eat when necessary to prevent lows) won’t work. keith

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Ok, me again, needing advice. It seems that this is my first summer on Insulin. After my expirience with that nasty hypo seizure on vacation, I’m leary of engaging in certain outdoor avtivities alone. I love to hike into the woods and go flyfishing. Or sometimes go to isolated rocks on the ocean for some surf fishing etc. Is the simple answer like this: "We’re diabetic, we can do anything,…if you test every hour or 2"?? Also, how do some of you handle… ah let’s say mountain climbing? Your metabolism goes from slow to maximum? How do you carbo load enough to handle that? Trial and era maybe? Test on the trail every 20 mins? My wife is also a bit nervous everytime I leave the house on any journey (after witnessing my seizure). I’m having a tough time because I have an very avtive life and find this area of insecurity intensly frustrating. Thoughts?                                         Terry Weir

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You got it test test test…. experience experience  you can do anything if you are willing to do what it takes to know your body every step of the way.  Include your wife in everything…this should boost her confidence that you as a team can handle anything.  I have been diabetic for 20-years and have never let it stop me from anything I really wanted to do.  it just takes work. Good Luck, M.H. Moman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, me again, needing advice. It seems that this is my first summer on Insulin. After my expirience with that nasty hypo seizure on vacation, I’m leary of engaging in certain outdoor avtivities alone. I love to hike into the woods and go flyfishing. Or sometimes go to isolated rocks on the ocean for some surf fishing etc. Is the simple answer like this: "We’re diabetic, we can do anything,…if you test every hour or 2"?? Also, how do some of you handle… ah let’s say mountain climbing? Your metabolism goes from slow to maximum? How do you carbo load enough to handle that? Trial and era maybe? Test on the trail every 20 mins? My wife is also a bit nervous everytime I leave the house on any journey (after witnessing my seizure). I’m having a tough time because I have an very avtive life and find this area of insecurity intensly frustrating. Thoughts?                                         Terry Weir

– The world is wide, and I will not waste my life in friction when it could be turned into momentum.                   -Frances Willard

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My family is planning a trip to Canada in early June and I am looking for information on fishing resorts and guides.  Any information is appreciated and should be sent to me by e-mail.  Here are some of the conditions for our vacation. The resort should be accessable by car, within an 8 to 10 hour drive from Thunder Bay, Canada.  We plan to visit Thunder Bay during the first part of the vacation. Fishing guides are required. Fishing preferences are artificials and live bait (no fly fishing).  I am open to a variety of fish species, especially: lake trout, walleye and northern pike. — Kevin S. McDowell Customer Service Consultant/Management Analyst Minnesota Department of Economic Security http://mn.jobsearch.org Author of Creative Job Search Internet resources: http://mn.jobsearch.org/cjs/cjs_site/cjs-home.htm

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My family is planning a trip to Canada in early June and I am looking for information on fishing resorts and guides.  Any information is appreciated and should be sent to me by e-mail.  Here are some of the conditions for our vacation. The resort should be accessable by car, within an 8 to 10 hour drive from Thunder Bay, Canada.  We plan to visit Thunder Bay during the first part of the vacation. Fishing guides are required. Fishing preferences are artificials and live bait (no fly fishing).  I am open to a variety of fish species, especially: lake trout, walleye and northern pike. — Kevin S. McDowell Customer Service Consultant/Management Analyst Minnesota Department of Economic Security http://mn.jobsearch.org Author of Creative Job Search Internet resources: http://mn.jobsearch.org/cjs/cjs_site/cjs-home.htm

Hi Kevin. There is lots on our website that I think will interest you. Perhaps the best place to start is with the Northwest Ontario’s Sunset Country Travel Association’s website at http://ontariossunsetcountry.ca . This organisation represents over 250 lodges and resorts in Northwestern Ontario. Also have a look at the Northern Ontario Tourist Outfitters at http://www.virtualnorth.com/noto/ . NOTO represents about 600 outdoor operators across Northern Ontario. You’ll find at both sites a members directory and online forms to request more information including vacation guides. Enjoy! Dan Good Virtual North

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I am looking at putting together a wellness day for a couple of friends of mine to go fishing at Coldwater Lake, near Mt. St. Helens. One of the guys is off to Arizona before too long and so we have to go somewhat early in the season — Late April — so I was wondering if anyone in the NOrthwest has had any experience in fishing at  this lake — especially early in the season. Thanks in advance, Rusty —

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I’ve never fished Coldwater Lake but have hear they are catching nice fish even right now.  My sources tell me that if the wind kicks up on the lake, your fishing day is pretty much over for us fly fishers.

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My chapter of Trout Unlimited (Des Moines WA) fishes Coldwater Lake usually in mid-June.  The access for fishing is fairly restrictive for those on foot since you are only allowed to fish at I believe 3 bank access spots: 1 near the boat launch on the Western end of the lake, 1 on the north bank about 1 mile up the trail from the parking lot, and 1 (I’m told, since I’ve not walked it) at the far Eastern end of the lake about 4 1/2 miles from the boat launch.  The access spots are IMO not very good for flycasters.  Spinning gear has a better opportunity for successful fishing with the better casting ability in the space allotted.  By the way, there is a pretty stiff fine if the rangers catch you off the approved trails or fishing in a spot that is not designated for such. This is to protect the recovering vegetation and to keep the area pristine.  Also, this is a selective fishery, artificials only, single barbless hooks. Float tubes or small car top boats (electric motors only are allowed per the signage at the launch) have access to better water.  While fish can be whereever they want to be, there is a shelf running along the northern bank that goes into a dropoff to the lake bottom at around 20 feet of depth.  Last June that seemed to be where the fish were for me – used a gaudy olive flashy wooly bugger on a T-300 line to get down to the bottom and bump the logs. If you’re not hitting some structure with the fly, you’re weren’t deep enough last year for me. We didn’t see many hatches the day we were there last June (cloudy, rainy day) but the year before (sunny warm day) we ran into a huge damselfly hatch.   I have heard that with favorable winds, people will put in at the launch and wind drift down to the access at 1 mile and then walk back with their tubes.  After being there a couple of times I think that would be a good strategy.  If the winds are out and about this coming June, we may try that. If you go in late April, I would have travel equipment to handle adverse weather as I recall we went over some fairly high ground on the highway getting in.  Seems like we were over 3000 feet elevation on the way in.   The April 11-25 edition of the Fishing and Hunting News lists Leon at Lewis River Sports (360) 225-9530 as a contact for Coldwate Lake.  I have not talked to them personally but you might want to call and see if they have some additional local information. Hope this helps.  Coldwater is a wonderfully beautiful lake to visit and fish. If you go, be sure to stop by the visitor center up the hill (I would drive not walk to it) and get a panoramic view of the lake.  If you are there on June 15, look for a group of us from TU in tubes flogging the water to a froth. Al Miller Des Moines Chapter of Trout Unlimited Seattle, Washington

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Question:

I am looking to hook up with women who flyfish in upstate ny or western ny area.  I am a bit tired of going fishing alone — teaching myself to flyfish — thinking that there must be other women who are accomplished flyfishers who would like to share their knowledge — and other beginners who would like to form an informal club.  I did attend a few meetings about flyfishing — but the men were not very open and friendly — they did not seem willing to offer help — maybe there are some other guys out there who really want to fish with women as friends?  I want to learn more!

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I am looking to hook up with women who flyfish

        Yeah, me too, baby! Uh-heh heh.           Yeah, Yeah, that would be cool.  Cool!         Hey, baby, wanna see my rod, eh-heh heh.         Yeah, Yeah, rod, heh heh, cool.         Sincerly;         Bevis and Butt-head.         eh heh heh.

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writes: I am looking to hook up with women who flyfish    Yeah, me too, baby! Uh-heh heh.      Yeah, Yeah, that would be cool.  Cool!    Hey, baby, wanna see my rod, eh-heh heh.    Yeah, Yeah, rod, heh heh, cool.    Sincerly;    Bevis and Butt-head.    eh heh heh.

Another less than literate member of our newsgroup. You should probably spend less time in this forum and more time holding onto your two inch sluggo. Bill Fling

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I am looking to hook up with women who flyfish in upstate ny or western ny area.  I am a bit tired of going fishing alone — teaching myself to flyfish — thinking that there must be other women who are accomplished flyfishers who would like to share their knowledge — and other beginners who would like to form an informal club.  I did attend a few meetings about flyfishing — but the men were not very open and friendly — they did not seem willing to offer help — maybe there are some other guys out there who really want to fish with women as friends?  I want to learn more!

To whom it may concern (e.g. MM37): I know of at least 2 dedicated flyfishers of the female gender. These women tie some fine flies. They live in the Buffalo area and fish for trout and steelhead. Both are graduate students. Both would help you learn more. If you are intersted E Mail me. You can contact them on the net. Iron Blue Dun -Doug Easton

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  I am looking to hook up with women who flyfish    Yeah, me too, baby! Uh-heh heh.      Yeah, Yeah, that would be cool.  Cool!    Hey, baby, wanna see my rod, eh-heh heh.    Yeah, Yeah, rod, heh heh, cool.    Sincerly;    Bevis and Butt-head.    eh heh heh.

Boy, I’ll bet a caddis fly has trouble landing on something that _small_.  Oops, thought that was your brain!

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I am looking to hook up with women who flyfish in upstate ny or western ny area.  I am a bit tired of going fishing alone — teaching myself to flyfish — thinking that there must be other women who are accomplished flyfishers who would like to share their knowledge — and other beginners who would like to form an informal club.  I did attend a few meetings about flyfishing — but the men were not very open and friendly — they did not seem willing to offer help — maybe there are some other guys out there who really want to fish with women as friends?  I want to learn more!

MM: Sorry about some of the responses you’ve gotten.  There are a *few* less-than-bright people who frequent this group. I can’t help you much on someone to fish with in NY, but if you ever get out to Iowa, let me know.  You can go along with me, my wife, and a good friend of hers and we’ll all catch lots of fish. You might consider trying again with one of the local groups.  I really believe there are open and helpful folks out there who can give you good advice and make you feel a little more welcome. Good luck, Bob

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I’m a beginner at flyfishing also. And I fish in upstate New York, mainly in the Finger Lakes region, especially east of Cayuga Lake, south of Cortland and all the way down towards PA. I know of several people who are very willing to help me. I’m very excited to fish the Delware for the first time sometime this spring. I have many places in the above areas where I have fished with a spinning outfit. I have Department of Environmental Conversation stocking maps   for Region 7, and I call the DEC regularly to find when they actually dump the trout into my favorite spots. But I am not a women, although I am always looking for somemone to fish with. dp "A bad day of fishing is better than a good day of Work"

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Does anyone have suggestions for patterns to take Shad on?  

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Any recommendations for the Stillwater the second week in July.  Looking for fly patterns and access points. Thanks! Don Albrecht

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I am going to fish the Stillwater River in Montana the second week in July. Any suggestions on flys and access points? I may have sent this message twice, since I’m new to the network and still learning! Sorry if someone sees it as a repeat. Don Donald Albrecht

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onald Albrecht write: : :I am going to fish the Stillwater River in Montana the second :week in :July. Any suggestions on flys and access points? : on : Don, There is a flyshop in Whitefish, Montana where I am sure you can get sound advice. Unfortunately, I can’t remember the name of the shop. Someone else here probably knows of it. Whitefish, by the way, is a delightful little town. If you have time, definitely drive to the Kootnai River. If I remember correctly its only about 90 minutes from the Whitefish-Kalispell area and it is northwest Montana’s best trout stream. Tim

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Any recommendations for the Stillwater the second week in July.  Looking for fly patterns and access points. Thanks! Don Albrecht

Back in ‘81 I had a great time staying at the Stillwater Valley Ranch outside of Nye Montana. They also ran an operation known as "Montana School of Flyfishing." It was owned by the Moat family, and was a real nice place for the novice or experienced fisherman. My understanding was most of the land on the river was private and protected (at that time) rather jealously by the ranchers. Haven’t kept track of the Moats, but don’t see their ad anymore in the mags. Best to check with the DNR for info and access, or see if these guys still have their place. Kevin Williams

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Kootnai river is definately some of the best FF in Montana – actually world class.  It is located near Libby MT, way up in the north west corner. As far as the stillwater is concerned, it is *ok*. As far as the FF shop in Whitefish, It is called "One Season Fly Fishing Shop" and the phone number is (406) 862-1298. Other inquiries about Montana FF are welcomed, reply to Jeff

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