Question:

In these trying times, when there has to be just one more way to make yet another dollar, I sense a marketing opportunity. Let me guess. You’re going to hire "mules" to smuggle hooks on airplanes. I suppose they’ll have to swallow them.

     Even better. These are high tech stainless hooks, so they aren’t dissolved by stomach acids. All the mule has to do is swallow them, then get      I was in with you on this one RW, but maybe we ought to think it a little more.       Charlie,       at least I hope they’re barbless

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I take that back, I bet the right marketer could have offices in every major airport within two years…..who wants to hear my idea? john

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I take that back, I bet the right marketer could have offices in every major airport within two years…..who wants to hear my idea? john

fire away, I’m on pins and needles  . . . Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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…..who wants to hear my idea?

Shoot.

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we’re waiting       Handyman          Mike

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In these trying times, when there has to be just one more way to make yet another dollar, I sense a marketing opportunity.

Let me guess. You’re going to hire "mules" to smuggle hooks on airplanes. I suppose they’ll have to swallow them. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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In these trying times, when there has to be just one more way to make yet another dollar, I sense a marketing opportunity. Somewhere along the line of two or three hundred dollars and flight….for the airlines. Anybody in here close enough to that industry to let me bend their ear a bit?  I mean this marvelous idea came from discussing fly fishing, so this post is only kinda sorta off topic. There is no profit or gain for you or I. I just have a question. john

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Question:

Hey Paul.  Finally took your advice and bought a kayak.  I think perhaps they should be outlawed.  You can get too close to tailing reds and it makes them too easy to catch. And, you can onto real muddy flats in seconds.  Before it took me forever in snowshoes.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fishing for bass with a small popper I cast to the edge of a stand of cat tails. I got a little too close and thought I had snagged one of the reeds. When everything exploded I thought I had a giant bass. Then I saw the black tubular shape and realized what I had snagged. I was in a kick boat and began kciking toward a shore line (double time) as I stripped out line. In just a few seconds I was to the backing and still stripping. Standing on dry land I began to retrieve line to find that the snake had wrapped around a stump and I was able to break it off. I didn’t care to land it and wasn’t a bit curious about what kind of snake it was.

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….spat on by a squirrel….

Thanks Herman, I just spewed a nice Cabernet all over the keyboard…….hm…….come to think of it, that’s not all that funny after all….been there.

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and carry a small dog for the gator’s. — Charlie…

        what is this?  a very short fill in the blank nature exam?         hehehehehehe…         wayno

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and carry a small dog for the gator’s. — Charlie…    what is this?  a very short fill in the blank nature exam?    hehehehehehe…

Wondered if you’d catch that (but I was betting you would<g). It’s for the gator’s dog to play with while you and the gator discuss dance steps – shufflin’ like a gator as it were. — Charlie…

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and carry a small dog for the gator’s. — Charlie…         what is this?  a very short fill in the blank nature exam?         hehehehehehe…         wayno

speakin’ of gatahs…. go gatahs! (hehehehehhe..) obroff: watermelon pond, located about 20 miles west of g’ville, has it’s name due to the farmland dedicated to growing melons on the rolling hills which surround this placid body of water. the melon crop provides the local farmers with some hard earned money (try pickin and loading watermelons in a hot Florida sun someday) and the fertilizer eventually makes its way to the lake which promotes good aquatic flora, which in turn promotes good aquatic fauna, which in turn attracts the likes of me. as is the case with most lakes located in the karst topographical zone of north central Florida, it is for the most part a hard packed white sand bottom lake which makes it ideal for wading in pursuit of largemouths. as is the case of most Florida lakes, if not all, it has its fair share of reptillean critters, and i ain’t speaking of crackers. amidst the pads and maidencane is where the big bass lay, waiting for the misguided bluegill, shiner, frog, bird, or snake to meander by. one day, while i was retrieving my streamer i snagged some hydrilla. i started stripping it in real fast and this now foot long plus streamer is streaking across the surface. a bass decides it must be a snake and hooks hisself on this mess. as i was in mid-strip, the bass is skimming towards me on the surface. one second i was fishing a streamer, the next i was fishing a big weedy streamer, the following i was fishing an even larger fishy streamer, and the next second i was hooked into about a 5 foot gatah. well, he had my "streamer" in his mouth anyway. cool. way cool. shit. i’m standing in about three feet of water and i’m playing a gator about 30 feet away from me. he does a roll and heads under water. the line is being pulled off my reel so at least he’s heading away, unless of course he’s making a big circle, which by the way he was. he surfaced with much aplomb about 10 feet from me with that big ole silly gatah grin only broken by my dead bass hanging out the side of his mouth like a cherished stogie. with a swish of his tail he’s on me. surreal moments live forever. i still feel like i was a ‘nole stunt man in one of weismuller’s tarzan zanies wrasslin a gator underwater. the fly, a flashy buggah streamer, dubbed a "wallymelon" by my fishing companion, is still in my possession. this is how i earned the moniker…. –wally gatah

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– shufflin’ like a gator as it were. — Charlie…

        oh, you mean that little number waldo does while explaining his late evening whereabouts to the lovely marie?  now i understand. wayno (a beach boogie man)

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…. with a swish of his tail he’s on me. surreal moments live forever. …

Great story. Did you live ? — Ken Fortenberry- right leg’s getting long, pull the left next time

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Great story. Did you live ?

only in spirit(s)….. oh yeah, some, not all mind you, of that tale is fictional wayno, you drsob. you fishin hazel this week? –wally gatah

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…. with a swish of his tail he’s on me. surreal moments live forever. … Great story. Did you live ? —

Who cares – Did it take you into the backing? Peter

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Great story. Did you live ? only in spirit(s)….. oh yeah, some, not all mind you, of that tale is fictional wayno, you drsob. you fishin hazel this week? –wally gatah

        yessiree bob, although the party has been reduced to just me and ol dash riprock.  why don’t you come up and see us sometime.         no shit, we would love to have you.  will be in a posh cabin from tuesday night until saturday morning. wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Food for nightmares.. A friend of mine fished the coastal waters around Florida. Pictures of alligators. BIG stingrays all around your ankles.

That’s why you should always shuffle your feet to scare the rays… and carry a small dog for the gator’s. — Charlie…

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Food for nightmares.. A friend of mine fished the coastal waters around Florida. Pictures of alligators. BIG stingrays all around your ankles. Now you’ve done it: tonight I’ll combine the two and dream about bellyboating, hooking a big alligator in the nostrils, paddling back to see a snake dangling from the very tree I’m aiming for. Herman Fishing for bass with a small popper I cast to the edge of a stand of cat tails. I got a little too close and thought I had snagged one of the reeds. When everything exploded I thought I had a giant bass. Then I saw the black tubular shape and realized what I had snagged. I was in a kick boat and began kciking toward a shore line (double time) as I stripped out line. In just a few seconds I was to the backing and still stripping. Standing on dry land I began to retrieve line to find that the snake had wrapped around a stump and I was able to break it off. I didn’t care to land it and wasn’t a bit curious about what kind of snake it was.

–         Cheers, Herman         Herman Nijland         Daytime webmaster         Lifetime flyfisher

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Yeah, right… scare the rays.. I’m Dutch, remember? The worst thing that can happen over here  while fishing, naturewise that is, is being spat on by a squirrel. Being circled by stingrays is already way out of that league. Herman, who wouldn’t put a toe in that water.

Yeah, but a lot of the ex-colonies have some interesting critters in the water<g. I don’t much care for gators, but bonefish flats are covered with rays. — Charlie…

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And that’s why one must always wear leaded wading boots when bonefishin’. Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah, right… scare the rays.. I’m Dutch, remember? The worst thing that can happen over here  while fishing, naturewise that is, is being spat on by a squirrel. Being circled by stingrays is already way out of that league. Herman, who wouldn’t put a toe in that water. Yeah, but a lot of the ex-colonies have some interesting critters in the water<g. I don’t much care for gators, but bonefish flats are covered with rays. — Charlie…

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Yeah, right… scare the rays.. I’m Dutch, remember? The worst thing that can happen over here  while fishing, naturewise that is, is being spat on by a squirrel. Being circled by stingrays is already way out of that league. Herman, who wouldn’t put a toe in that water. Food for nightmares.. A friend of mine fished the coastal waters around Florida. Pictures of alligators. BIG stingrays all around your ankles. That’s why you should always shuffle your feet to scare the rays… and carry a small dog for the gator’s. — Charlie…

–         Cheers, Herman         Herman Nijland         Daytime webmaster         Lifetime flyfisher

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Fishing for bass with a small popper I cast to the edge of a stand of cat tails. I got a little too close and thought I had snagged one of the reeds. When everything exploded I thought I had a giant bass. Then I saw the black tubular shape and realized what I had snagged. I was in a kick boat and began kciking toward a shore line (double time) as I stripped out line. In just a few seconds I was to the backing and still stripping. Standing on dry land I began to retrieve line to find that the snake had wrapped around a stump and I was able to break it off. I didn’t care to land it and wasn’t a bit curious about what kind of snake it was.

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Question:

Hi, Can anybody recommend a good quality, sturdy tackle box. It needs to be large as I have a big collection of lures and trolling paraphernalia. At the moment I end up dragging two or three smaller boxes around with me. Many thanks, Nick

Response:

shin real hard on the hitch receiver and jump around. Steve

Sorry, that was Bill Dance, "dancin" around the end of his truck. — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

"Nick C"

asks: Hi, Can anybody recommend a good quality, sturdy tackle box. It needs to be large as I have a big collection of lures and trolling paraphernalia. At the moment I end up dragging two or three smaller boxes around with me. Many thanks, Nick

I like Plano.  You can get them in sizes big enough to carry the contents of a one bedroom apartment. But, I do like two or three smaller boxes.  I fish for different species of fish, and bringing along a ton of bass stuff to fish for trout is just too much.  Now, I may keep the bass box in the car or RV, just in case, but hauling everything you own to go catch a few bluegills doesn’t work for me. I even like the little ones about as big as two packs of cigs to carry when I go for a short hike.  Big enough to carry some extra hooks, sinkers, lures, flies, etc, and go in a pocket. But I do like Plano, and for a couple of bucks, send in the deal and get your name on a real brass plate for the top.  Makes you look like Like Roland Martin.  And to really look like Roland, bang your shin real hard on the hitch receiver and jump around. Steve Illigitimi non carborundum.

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"Steve Huber"

Sorry, that was Bill Dance, "dancin" around the end of his truck.

I’ll bet that Roland has done it at least once.  Maybe not on camera. Steve Illigitimi non carborundum.

Response:

Hi, Can anybody recommend a good quality, sturdy tackle box. It needs to be large as I have a big collection of lures and trolling paraphernalia. At the moment I end up dragging two or three smaller boxes around with me. Many thanks, Nick

This doesnt relate much to what youre talking about, but If you take advice from the guys on TV and have like 5 small boxes for each kind of fish, you will end up going fishing and sure enough there will be people catching 20lb cats all around you when you only have your bass equipment with you.  or you take a bunch of topwater stuff and the bass are biting on the bottom……man that pisses me off so buy a big box, be ready for anything…..I even carry in my little firebird 4 different fishing poles….a fly rod & reel, a spinning reel w/ rod, a baitcasting reel w/ rod, and a bug surfrod with a huge spinning reel just in case the huge carp happen to be biting.

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so buy a big box, be ready for anything…..I even carry in my little firebird 4 different fishing poles….a fly rod & reel, a spinning reel w/ rod, a baitcasting reel w/ rod, and a bug surfrod

One of those shopping carts works good to haul all the stuff. Be sure to remove the market’s name. Steve  ;-) Illigitimi non carborundum.

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Cant remember the brand..but i saw one at wal-mart ,pretty big with removable clear boxes you could fit in a pocket for hiking,quick trip etc..

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Let’s see tackle boxes … you got Kevin Van Dam on TV with a tractor-trailer load of tackle, you got Mark Sosin on TV with little Plano tackle boxes for all occasions …. sometimes a dozen boxes for some occasions, you got foot locker-sized, cig-pack-sized,  you got worm boxes, leader boxes, fresh … salt …. fly …. surf … spinning …. bait casting … I secretly suspect your question was designed to stir up this bunch of smelly ol’ anglers … and hook em good … Mission accomplished. Unless of course, you work for Plano, Flambeau or any of the other tackle box makers. By the way, I’ve been fishing for 44 years, and I only have a dozen tackle boxes … not counting the little ones.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cant remember the brand..but i saw one at wal-mart ,pretty big with removable clear boxes you could fit in a pocket for hiking,quick trip etc..

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Let’s see tackle boxes … you got Kevin Van Dam on TV with a tractor-trailer load of tackle, you got Mark Sosin on TV with little Plano tackle boxes for all occasions …. sometimes a dozen boxes for some occasions, you got foot locker-sized, cig-pack-sized,  you got worm boxes, leader boxes, fresh … salt …. fly …. surf … spinning …. bait casting … I secretly suspect your question was designed to stir up this bunch of smelly ol’ anglers … and hook em good … Mission accomplished. Unless of course, you work for Plano, Flambeau or any of the other tackle box makers. By the way, I’ve been fishing for 44 years, and I only have a dozen tackle boxes … not counting the little ones.

I mostly freshwater fish, so I have two tackle boxes, one for fresh and a smaller one for salt. When I get too much freshwater gear and outgrow my box, I transfer all my saltwater stuff into it and give the smallest one to Goodwill. I’ve gone through about 4, and my freshwater box is now at the largest size Plano you can get without having dual side opening trays. I think I’m going to be keeping my current one for awhile Cant remember the brand..but i saw one at wal-mart ,pretty big with removable clear boxes you could fit in a pocket for hiking,quick trip etc..

Mega Man fans visit alt.games.megaman Quint’s page of Rockman manga scans: http://www.crosswinds.net/~sakugarne

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Question:

Your cleaning method appears sound, but I would definitely do it by hand and stay away from any washing machine, no matter how "gentle" the cycle may be. Regards from Montreal John Brkich

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I would second this recommendation….after trying some others.  The only thing that I would add is that you can purchase a product specifically designed to clean neoprene waders (I forget which company makes it…Simms, I believe)…but I’ve just used liquid soap.  I have a den with a bathroom/shower that is just off of the garage.  When I come back from fishing, if I notice that my waders are getting a bit "foul", I put them in the shower for cleaning.  By putting them on inside out, it’s easy to wash them and ensure that you’ve not skipped anything.  In fact, when I do such a washing, I usually do both the inside and outside…then hang them in the den and over a large plastic bucket to catch water.  It works well. Barry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Put them on inside out, and wash them in the shower. Neoprene is a closed cell foam, so the odor should just be on the surface. My neoprene waders are getting so funky even I don’t want to put them on anymore.  Is there a way to wash them -the insides especially- and if so, what works the best? I was thinking of using Woolite and putting them on gentle cycle, but…..I’lll ask the experts first. pete

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On the way home from a trip, I stop by a neighborhood do-it-yourself car wash. For $2 and 10 minutes I get clean waders (inside and out), clean felt on my wading boots, and no sand residue on the inside of the boots (which can wear the neoprene bootie). It’s also a good time to clean up the beer cooler! Jerry Donovan, Littleton, Colo. My neoprene waders are getting so funky even I don’t want to put them on anymore.  Is there a way to wash them -the insides especially- and if so, what works the best? I was thinking of using Woolite and putting them on gentle cycle, but…..I’lll ask the experts first. pete

(just kiddin) but its the way I fly fish. — George Gehrke All Writings

Question:

Hi, I’m new to this NG and want to start with flyfishing, Can anyone give me some info on do’s and don’t ? Are there any good sites with info ? Any help would be appreciated Thanks Fred.

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Search dejanews on this ng and you’ll find all kinds of good advice on technique, lots of sometimes conflicting advice on equipment, and some downright weird advice on politics and ethics<g. Have fun and welcome aboard. Hi, I’m new to this NG and want to start with flyfishing, Can anyone give me some info on do’s and don’t ? Are there any good sites with info ? Any help would be appreciated Thanks Fred.

– Charlie…

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threads as we get this question (FAQ) "Frequently Asked Question more then a doze times a year.  However; I’ll give you my version in how it is best answered. 1)  Buy the book "Matching the Hatch" and use it as your number one fly fishing bible.  Buy this book first. 2)  Go to a fly shop fishing pro and find yourself a mentor and/or take lessons out of that store. 3)  Take a fly tying course. Remember, there are different stages of fly fishermen who catch the most fish. 1) The beginner 2) The intermediate 3) The master 4) The local ?  you ask?  The local is the one that usually breaks the most fishing laws and is probably the main poacher in the area.  They think they own everything. Hope this helps you get off on the right foot. Finally, use Gehrke’s Gink to float all your flies and Xink to sink all your wets.  Your wife will like that Fred. ; ) George Gehrke/President Gehrke’s Gink Hi, I’m new to this NG and want to start with flyfishing, Can anyone give me some info on do’s and don’t ? Are there any good sites with info ? Any help would be appreciated Thanks

All Writings

Question:

How do you get 21 hours of fuel into an Aztec?  I’m not familiar with the type, but at an avg fuel burn of 8-10 GPH – we’re talking about 168-210 gals. Where would you put it all?  Another question springs to mind – how do you add oil in flight? I’ve seen club aircraft burn as much as a 1/2 qt/hr. The sump would be bone dry after 21 hrs with no additional oil.

The Aztec would burn considerably more than 8-10 GPH.  Probably closer to 25 GPH.  So we are talking about over 500 gallons.  The Aztec is a rather slow twin with a pair of 250 HP flat engines.  It is Pipers upscale Apache, just as the Beech Baron is the high power version of the Travelair. John

Response:

Well Jon Johanson has done it both ways (make that crossed the Pacific … ) in an RV-4 during his round the world trips. Check out his Web site at http://www.mag-net.educ.monash.edu.au/saaa/head.html.

This link doesn’t work for me?

Response:

I have this fantasy of flying to one of them deserted SP islands (Robinson Crusoe Syndrome).  Has anyone tried this in a single engine airplane, is this feasible at all?  Which route would one take? Thanks, James

Response:

Check out http://www.calle.com/aviation/airports.cgi Allows you to specify departure, destination, range and speed, and displays a nice table and map of the results. Lots of material for dream flights… BTW you probably don’t want a totally deserted island; food, water, fuel, runway and women should be minimum requirements (the website allows you to specify 2 out of these 5 Eric – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have this fantasy of flying to one of them deserted SP islands (Robinson Crusoe Syndrome).  Has anyone tried this in a single engine airplane, is this feasible at all?  Which route would one take? Thanks, James

Response:

I have this fantasy of flying to one of them deserted SP islands (Robinson Crusoe Syndrome).  Has anyone tried this in a single engine airplane, is this feasible at all?  Which route would one take? Thanks, James

I think someone tried this in a twin.  Her name was Amelia something….. Sorrry, it was too easy to pass on  :-) Jeff Oslick

Response:

I have this fantasy of flying to one of them deserted SP islands (Robinson Crusoe Syndrome).  Has anyone tried this in a single engine airplane, is this feasible at all?  Which route would one take? Thanks, James

Da Plane, Boss, Da Plane! (sorry, just couldn’t help myself) John Galban====N4BQ (PA28-180)

Response:

I have this fantasy of flying to one of them deserted SP islands (Robinson Crusoe Syndrome).  Has anyone tried this in a single engine airplane, is this feasible at all?  Which route would one take? Thanks, James

James, It is most certainly feasible and is done all the time. Wether done single engine or twin is really no consideration. In some respects, a single may be better than a twin because in a twin you need to carry much more fuel to feed two engines. That second engine does not give you any more chances to remain airborne, if one should fail, until such a time that you are back down to normal weights. During the early phases of the flight you would be so heavy with fuel that one engine could not possibly keep you in the air. The two longest legs are Oakland to Honolulu 2100 NM and from there you have another long leg, either HNL to Majuro, Marshall Islands, or HNL to Tarawa, Republic of Kiribati, the latter one being a good stop, but almost again as far as OAK-HNL. After that you can choose your legs more easily and they are considerably shorter. Reinhard

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I don’t know what you are flying but when flying my instructors Turbo Aztec, six full grown american people and topped off I can hold 15,000 on one engine, well, or as long as my leg holds out. cg It is most certainly feasible and is done all the time. Wether done single engine or twin is really no consideration. In some respects, a single may be better than a twin because in a twin you need to carry much more fuel to feed two engines. That second engine does not give you any more chances to remain airborne, if one should fail, until such a time that you are back down to normal weights. During the early phases of the flight you would be so heavy with fuel that one engine could not possibly keep you in the air. Reinhard

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know what you are flying but when flying my instructors Turbo Aztec, six full grown american people and topped off I can hold 15,000 on one engine, well, or as long as my leg holds out. cg It is most certainly feasible and is done all the time. Wether done single engine or twin is really no consideration. In some respects, a single may be better than a twin because in a twin you need to carry much more fuel to feed two engines. That second engine does not give you any more chances to remain airborne, if one should fail, until such a time that you are back down to normal weights. During the early phases of the flight you would be so heavy with fuel that one engine could not possibly keep you in the air. Reinhard

First off, I would have to see that to believe it. Secondly, to fly OAK-HNL in a Turbo Aztec (14 hrs plus 3 hrs reserve), you would carry a lot more weight in fuel than the load you described here. Reinhard

Response:

I have this fantasy of flying to one of them deserted SP islands (Robinson Crusoe Syndrome).  Has anyone tried this in a single engine airplane, is this feasible at all?  Which route would one take? Thanks, James The two longest legs are Oakland to Honolulu 2100 NM and from there you have another long leg, either HNL to Majuro, Marshall Islands, or HNL to Tarawa, Republic of Kiribati, the latter one being a good stop, but almost again as far as OAK-HNL. After that you can choose your legs more easily and they are considerably shorter.

You could also go up to Alaska, across and down through Russia, over to Japan and then on to the South Pacific.  It is a much longer journey, but no 2000 mile over water legs. (I wonder how far the jump to Palau would be, I’ve always wanted to go there…) Brian

Response:

First off, I would have to see that to believe it. Secondly, to fly OAK-HNL in a Turbo Aztec (14 hrs plus 3 hrs reserve), you would carry a lot more weight in fuel than the load you described here. Reinhard I only show from OAK to PHNL to be 2089 nm that would only be about 10 hrs in the air.

My rounded off 2100 NM was only a paltry 11 NM off from your very accurate 2089!! well within range 300 gal, 1800 lbs, but you would not be flying  more than 5 hours on one engine. cg

It is quite obvious to me that you are an armchair pilot who has never done anything like this before. Your numbers are all wrong, and I hope for your sake that you never try it. You would most certainly get your feet wet. It took me 13 hours in a Baron 58 and 15 in a Twin Bonanza. Your turbos in that Aztec would most likely do very little if anything for you since westbound to HNL most frequently you need to stay at 10K or below lest you catch the prevailing westerlies which are very strong at altitude. So you would do well to get 150K over the water. Reinhard

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I only show from OAK to PHNL to be 2089 nm that would only be about 10 hrs in the air. well within range 300 gal, 1800 lbs, but you would not be flying  more than 5 hours on one engine.   cg First off, I would have to see that to believe it. Secondly, to fly OAK-HNL in a Turbo Aztec (14 hrs plus 3 hrs reserve), you would carry a lot more weight in fuel than the load you described here. Reinhard

Response:

First off, I would have to see that to believe it. Secondly, to fly OAK-HNL in a Turbo Aztec (14 hrs plus 3 hrs reserve), you would carry a lot more weight in fuel than the load you described here. Reinhard

I thought for IFR you only needed 45 min reserve.  – Doug  -  Kingfisher plans are here…Now, about that Garage… …cruising between 150 to 200 miles per hour… Greater cruising speeds are possible, but the size of the earth does not warrent greater speeds. -Igor Sikorsky in 1934

Response:

It doesn’t matter a great deal what the legal reserve is.  Winds over the Pacific on that flight are usually against you.  If you go high at all to minimize fuel consumption the head winds increase.  The Aztec is NOT a fast airplane for its fuel consumption.   To fly that leg without considerably MORE than a 45 minute reserve, is to seriously invite wet feet.  The 3  hour reserve is not bad.  The 14 hours is quite optimistic, in my opinion.  I think I would use something like 18 hours for flight planning purposes in an Aztec.  Then I would add another three hours for reserve.  That looks like about 21 hours of fuel. I think you could get it in, but not without some pretty special ferry tanks!   John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – First off, I would have to see that to believe it. Secondly, to fly OAK-HNL in a Turbo Aztec (14 hrs plus 3 hrs reserve), you would carry a lot more weight in fuel than the load you described here. Reinhard I thought for IFR you only needed 45 min reserve.  – Doug  -  Kingfisher plans are here…Now, about that Garage… …cruising between 150 to 200 miles per hour… Greater cruising speeds are possible, but the size of the earth does not warrent greater speeds. -Igor Sikorsky in 1934

Response:

OK, so its been done before in factory planes, how about homebuilts?  I am considering the KR2, which has an advertised range of 1600sm, can this be extended with additional tanks to the 2100nm required to fly to HNL? James – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have this fantasy of flying to one of them deserted SP islands (Robinson Crusoe Syndrome).  Has anyone tried this in a single engine airplane, is this feasible at all?  Which route would one take? Thanks, James James, It is most certainly feasible and is done all the time. Wether done single engine or twin is really no consideration. In some respects, a single may be better than a twin because in a twin you need to carry much more fuel to feed two engines. That second engine does not give you any more chances to remain airborne, if one should fail, until such a time that you are back down to normal weights. During the early phases of the flight you would be so heavy with fuel that one engine could not possibly keep you in the air. The two longest legs are Oakland to Honolulu 2100 NM and from there you have another long leg, either HNL to Majuro, Marshall Islands, or HNL to Tarawa, Republic of Kiribati, the latter one being a good stop, but almost again as far as OAK-HNL. After that you can choose your legs more easily and they are considerably shorter. Reinhard

Response:

What is the availability of av-gas in Russia. I hear that it’s non-existant. D.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think I would use something like 18 hours for flight planning purposes in an Aztec.  Then I would add another three hours for reserve.  That looks like about 21 hours of fuel. I think you could get it in, but not without some pretty special ferry tanks! How do you get 21 hours of fuel into an Aztec?  I’m not familiar with the type, but at an avg fuel burn of 8-10 GPH – we’re talking about 168-210 gals. Where would you put it all?  Another question springs to mind – how do you add oil in flight? I’ve seen club aircraft burn as much as a 1/2 qt/hr. The sump would be bone dry after 21 hrs with no additional oil. If you stay below 10k feet, you will frequently find winds that are not too bad. You often find about 10 knots of help down low.. Under no circumstances would I start out with ANY headwind on that leg. Then you could make HNL in about 14-15 hrs in an Aztec. Taking a Baron to Fiji last year, I flew at 6K feet to HNL and did quite well. (13 hrs.) Fitting all that fuel into the plane is really not so difficult. There are professional tanking outfits that install ferry tanks in the cabin in a day. You are certainly correct when you adress the oil issue. It is absolutely essential that you know the oil consumption of your engines. And there is also a way to rig an oil replenishing setup to that you can add oil in flight. Reinhard

Reinhard is exactly right.  You notice in the original post that I did mention that it would take some fancy ferry tanks to get the fuel in! When my airplane flew across the Atlantic from Brazil to Cornwall, they added a special fancy ferry tank.  A 50 gallon drum on chocks where the back seat goes, with a wobble pump to pump fuel up into the wing tank. They recommended that you run the wing tank down to less than a quarter full before pumping fuel up to it.  They said watch the gauges so you do not overfill it and pump fuel overboard.   The also recommended the long distance power setting of 1800 RPM and 23 inches of manifold pressure.  That was supposed to get the fuel consumption down to 14.7 gallons per hour.  That gave a little over eight hours in the air.  At that power setting, you get 100 knots! Still wouldn’t make Honolulu! John

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No idea about a KR2, but you might want to read Sport Aviation (past few issues) and look for the 2 part round the world story by the author and Burt Rutan, who flew their Long EZ’s around the world. Very informative (and nice pictures – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, so its been done before in factory planes, how about homebuilts?  I am considering the KR2, which has an advertised range of 1600sm, can this be extended with additional tanks to the 2100nm required to fly to HNL? James

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, so its been done before in factory planes, how about homebuilts?  I am considering the KR2, which has an advertised range of 1600sm, can this be extended with additional tanks to the 2100nm required to fly to HNL? James Well Jon Johanson has done it both ways (make that crossed the Pacific … ) in an RV-4 during his round the world trips. Check out his Web site at http://www.mag-net.educ.monash.edu.au/saaa/head.html. He has also published his autobio called "Aiming High", Wakefield Press, South Australia, ISBN 1 86254 424 7. Highly recommended reading for anyone building their own plane.

James, You are considering a monumental task here ol chap, this sought of feat requires a hell of a lot of homework and I would suggest you’re really stretching it in a KR-2. With a large amount of retro-fitting you could possibly carry out this adventure, however the stakes are extremely high! I would also endorse the above, ie read Jon Johannson’s book and while your doing that bare a thought for the planning both technically and enroute that goes into these voyages. You may also wish to contact the "Mick & Dick" of "Round the World Friendship Tour":- Sport Aviation Feb edition Pg 76. For a start, unless you’ve got heaps of "Bucks" behind you, just go build your A/C and enjoy flying it around the "States". Whilst I’ll admit, I don’t have an intermit knowledge of the KR-2 and its weight & balance etc, it is only small by any standards. Its payload excess does not go down well with the number crunching required when you consider such additions as fuel, extra redundancy systems req’d, and ESPECIALLY CONSIDER ENGINE RELIABLITY etc, etc. To say the least, 18 plus hours is a long time to spend in the close confines of a KR-2 cockpit, surrounded by custom built ferry tanks around your ears. I have two buddies that were involved in Ferry Flights across the Pacific in their younger days. One of them did get his feet wet mid Pacific (1200 Nm from nowhere & at night) when the nut on the Alternator pulley worked its way loose. Lucky for him he had spotted a fishing boat a couple of hours before and was able to back track and relocate it. All be it, he was now down to torch and compass. That was in a brand new production A/C as well. Glenn now does his long transcontinental flights the same way I do, the only way:-In style at 43,000 ft. James, whilst your challenge is a commendable one, the golden rule is to keep your feet dry. Best way to do that is travel the South Pacific the same way most of us do, In a 747, 767 etc, and don’t forget you can have the added advantage of sipping champagne or other adult beverages!! If you’re considering going on from HNL to other South Pacific destinations, then you have a hole heap more challenges in front of you. Regards Ray (Just my 2 cents worth) J.

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My tongue was firmly in cheek.  I don’t fly VFR without at least 1 hour reserve. — Doug  -  Kingfisher plans are here…Now, about that Garage… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It doesn’t matter a great deal what the legal reserve is.  Winds over the Pacific on that flight are usually against you.  If you go high at all to minimize fuel consumption the head winds increase.  The Aztec is NOT a fast airplane for its fuel consumption.   To fly that leg without considerably MORE than a 45 minute reserve, is to seriously invite wet feet.  The 3  hour reserve is not bad.  The 14 hours is quite optimistic, in my opinion.  I think I would use something like 18 hours for flight planning purposes in an Aztec.  Then I would add another three hours for reserve.  That looks like about 21 hours of fuel. I think you could get it in, but not without some pretty special ferry tanks!   John I thought for IFR you only needed 45 min reserve.  – Doug  -  Kingfisher plans are here…Now, about that Garage… …cruising between 150 to 200 miles per hour… Greater cruising speeds are possible, but the size of the earth does not warrent greater speeds. -Igor Sikorsky in 1934

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OK, so its been done before in factory planes, how about homebuilts?  I am considering the KR2, which has an advertised range of 1600sm, can this be extended with additional tanks to the 2100nm required to fly to HNL? James

Well Jon Johanson has done it both ways (make that crossed the Pacific … ) in an RV-4 during his round the world trips. Check out his Web site at http://www.mag-net.educ.monash.edu.au/saaa/head.html. He has also published his autobio called "Aiming High", Wakefield Press, South Australia, ISBN 1 86254 424 7. Highly recommended reading for anyone building their own plane. Rgds JD   …… I’d rather be flying ….. John Duncan M.C.N.E.  PPL(A)  J.P.  AOPA(Aust)#42745 EAA#548147 J & J Network Services Pty Ltd P.O. Box 109 Minto N.S.W. 2566 Australia

Response:

I think I would use something like 18 hours for flight planning purposes in an Aztec.  Then I would add another three hours for reserve.  That looks like about 21 hours of fuel. I think you could get it in, but not without some pretty special ferry tanks! How do you get 21 hours of fuel into an Aztec?  I’m not familiar with the type, but at an avg fuel burn of 8-10 GPH – we’re talking about 168-210 gals. Where would you put it all?  Another question springs to mind – how do you add oil in flight? I’ve seen club aircraft burn as much as a 1/2 qt/hr. The sump would be bone dry after 21 hrs with no additional oil.

If you stay below 10k feet, you will frequently find winds that are not too bad. You often find about 10 knots of help down low.. Under no circumstances would I start out with ANY headwind on that leg. Then you could make HNL in about 14-15 hrs in an Aztec. Taking a Baron to Fiji last year, I flew at 6K feet to HNL and did quite well. (13 hrs.) Fitting all that fuel into the plane is really not so difficult. There are professional tanking outfits that install ferry tanks in the cabin in a day. You are certainly correct when you adress the oil issue. It is absolutely essential that you know the oil consumption of your engines. And there is also a way to rig an oil replenishing setup to that you can add oil in flight. Reinhard

Response:

It doesn’t matter a great deal what the legal reserve is.  Winds over the Pacific on that flight are usually against you.  If you go high at all to minimize fuel consumption the head winds increase.  The Aztec is NOT a fast airplane for its fuel consumption.   To fly that leg without considerably MORE than a 45 minute reserve, is to seriously invite wet feet.  The 3  hour reserve is not bad.  The 14 hours is quite optimistic, in my opinion.  I think I would use something like 18 hours for flight planning purposes in an Aztec.  Then I would add another three hours for reserve.  That looks like about 21 hours of fuel. I think you could get it in, but not without some pretty special ferry tanks!  

How do you get 21 hours of fuel into an Aztec?  I’m not familiar with the type, but at an avg fuel burn of 8-10 GPH – we’re talking about 168-210 gals. Where would you put it all?  Another question springs to mind – how do you add oil in flight? I’ve seen club aircraft burn as much as a 1/2 qt/hr. The sump would be bone dry after 21 hrs with no additional oil.

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What did you assume that I would try it without any  preflight planning?? cg It is quite obvious to me that you are an armchair pilot who has never done anything like this before. Your numbers are all wrong, and I hope for your sake that you never try it. You would most certainly get your feet wet. It took me 13 hours in a Baron 58 and 15 in a Twin Bonanza. Your turbos in that Aztec would most likely do very little if anything for you since westbound to HNL most frequently you need to stay at 10K or below lest you catch the prevailing westerlies which are very strong at altitude. So you would do well to get 150K over the water. Reinhard

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First off, I would have to see that to believe it. Secondly, to fly OAK-HNL in a Turbo Aztec (14 hrs plus 3 hrs reserve), you would carry a lot more weight in fuel than the load you described here. Reinhard I thought for IFR you only needed 45 min reserve.  – Doug  -  

Surely you jest, Doug. Kidding aside, the special flight permit that you get for the overload condition and he temporary fuel tank installation requires you calculate in a 3 hour reserve on transoceanic flights. Things can happen while on such a long flight; the forecast winds can turn out different, you might have equipment problems that cause you to burn more fuel for less airspeed than you had planned, etc. I have had several a couple of occasions when I was glad for the extra fuel. Remember, there is only one time when you can have too much fuel: when you are on fire. Reinhard

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Question:

Would any of you out there in ff-land help me with an address, email, URL for an artist who has published ff art on the chat group and elsewhere.  He has done a number of pieces which are very interesting.  His last name begins with "Whitar….".  If you know of this artist, please send me his email address, WWW URL address, etc.

Response:

Would any of you out there in ff-land help me with an address, email, URL for an artist who has published ff art on the chat group and elsewhere.  He has done a number of pieces which are very interesting.  His last name begins with "Whitar….".  If you know of this artist, please send me his email address, WWW URL address, etc.

The only person that I can think of that has a web site with flyfishing art is Mark Vinsel (sp?). John Fereira

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Question:

Interesting to hear Dave talk about green flies.  Several of us did well hooking carp in the Carson River, NV last year while fishing bead-head green crystal buggers, size 12, upstream like a nymph.  Also caught lots of trout.  May be just a coincidence. Regards, Dick Hubbard

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I live near a lake full of large carp up to 40 lbs. When I was younger, I use to catch them with a spinning rod and a nightcrawler. These large trash fish fight extremely well and I think would be a great way to past the time during those hot summer months with a fly rod. Any suggestions on what type of flies one might want to use. I see them in the shallows as well as at the surface and appear to be extremely spooky. Any suggestions for flies and techniques would be greatly appreciated. — Mark Neumann

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I live near a lake full of large carp   Any suggestions for flies and techniques would be greatly appreciated. –I  have just come back from the second disatorous trip trying to

catch what look to be 10-12 pounders in shallow water in Tx. Based on my success thus far, I think perhaps something in a .22LR, with perhaps a bit of gold rib might be the best way to go. Seriously if any one has had success i’d like to hear about it.                                                    Jay – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Gentlemen: In a local pond, I have caught carp up to eight pound with an olive wooly bugger.  It really helps to stay hidden from the fish and also to use the lightest line size you can get away with-I went from using a 9wt. to a 6wt. and that helped a lot.   Also, it’s better to fish when the water is murky.  In spite of what some people seem to think, carp have excellent eyesight.  Also, try to wade as little as possible. good luck, G-Man

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I live near a lake full of large carp   Any suggestions for flies and techniques would be greatly appreciated. –I  have just come back from the second disatorous trip trying to catch what look to be 10-12 pounders in shallow water in Tx. Based on my success thus far, I think perhaps something in a .22LR, with perhaps a bit of gold rib might be the best way to go. Seriously if any one has had success i’d like to hear about it.                                                    Jay

Wait until the carp are spawning in very shallow water.  Take any fly, it doesn’t matter which one, and tie it to a large rock — 20 lb will do nicely.  Throw the rock on the carp.  Collect the carp and your fly.   Repeat.

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I really like algae fly patterns!  Parahcute hoppers work, too.  They look like popcorn!  

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I live near a lake full of large carp up to 40 lbs. When I was younger, I use to catch them with a spinning rod and a nightcrawler. These large trash fish fight extremely well and I think would be a great way to past the time during those hot summer months with a fly rod. Any suggestions on what type of flies one might want to use. I see them in the shallows as well as at the surface and appear to be extremely spooky. Any suggestions for flies and techniques would be greatly appreciated. — Mark Neumann

Hi Mark, Hoppers and Wooly Buggers work well on the Yellowstone River. I would suspect they would work in your area as well, especially the Buggers. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

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McCullough) writes:

: : :I live near a lake full of large carp   Any suggestions for flies and techniques would be greatly :appreciated. : :–I  have just come back from the second disatorous trip trying to :catch what look to be 10-12 pounders in shallow water in Tx. Based n my success thus far, I think perhaps something in a .22LR, with :perhaps a bit of gold rib might be the best way to go. Seriously :if any one has had success i’d like to hear about it. :                                                   Jay : Jay, they are a very difficult fish to fool as you have discovered for yourself.  I caught a 4 pounder during lunch hour on a local park pond just a few days ago.  I was using a black Marabou Worm but have used rust brown, white and yellow in the past with fair success.  A dead drift near bottom dead in front of them seems to work best.  

Response:

McCullough) writes: : : :I live near a lake full of large carp   Any suggestions for flies and

techniques would be greatly – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -:appreciated. : :–I  have just come back from the second disatorous trip trying to :catch what look to be 10-12 pounders in shallow water in Tx. Based n my success thus far, I think perhaps something in a .22LR, with :perhaps a bit of gold rib might be the best way to go. Seriously :if any one has had success i’d like to hear about it. :                                                   Jay : Jay, they are a very difficult fish to fool as you have discovered for yourself.  I caught a 4 pounder during lunch hour on a local park pond just a few days ago.  I was using a black Marabou Worm but have used rust brown, white and yellow in the past with fair success.  A dead drift near bottom dead in front of them seems to work best.  

Carp are suckers for the following patterns: 1. Borgers Fleeing Crayfish – particularly olive         tie them in different sizes till you hit on one they like.         Lots of crayfish patterns work well. So do W.Buggers. 2. Small nymphs – anything like a Hare’s Ear or an all-purpose black 3. Green rockworms work well at times. 4. They will even rise to dry flies!!! That’s a hoot. Just match the     hatch. 5. If there is a fruit tree, particularly a mulberry, hanging out over   the water then whip up a bunch of flies to imitate the fruit –  The well known mulberry hatch on the Potomac River is a classic  example.                 HRS III 6. If all else fails, chum them up with bread and tie up a roughly trimmed wonderbread special with bleached deer hair.

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I live near a lake full of large carp up to 40 lbs. When I was younger, I use to catch them with a spinning rod and a nightcrawler. These large trash fish fight extremely well and I think would be a great way to past the time during those hot summer months with a fly rod.

Trash Fish?  Scale, skin, and soak them overnight in salt water and lemon juice and then fry them out – can’t tell them from bass. ..course, ’round these here parts, we like to wait till they start rolling up next to the bank and then fish with bow and arrow, pitchfork, or extended net…come to think of it, I need to start sharpening that pitchfork – only a couple more weeks til carp season! – saw one Sunday in about a foot of water under the canoe that had to be all of three feet long – it was huge! Network and Medical Information Systems Manager Richland Memorial Hospital The University of South Carolina School of Medicine Department of Family and Preventive Medicine WWW.PREVMED.SC.EDU/FP/CMOORE.HTM Writer, Poet, and Couch Tater by trade, Systems Integrator by financial need; educated by college, loved by friends, misunderstood by peers, and Southern, by God. My Opinions are probably my own…

Response:

I live near a lake full of large carp   Any suggestions for flies and

techniques would be greatly appreciated. Hi–I have been catching carp for years in TexAs with what I call a Grass

Fly-just some greenrubber on a strong hook. I pick up grass clippings from the local yard men and dump[ them in the water where carp have been seen. They slurp everything down with their hose like noses and that includes your fly. Thiis trick never misses the Amur carp is a vegetarian and likkes grass better than cheese! I have caught as many as 8-10  carp averaging 20 lbs-no fish story! Use a 6 weight and you can have a ball! Good Luck                                              The Ancient Angler

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Not sure I’m that proud of it but I’ve caught many carp with an Olive Wooly Bugger. The same I use for Trout. Use a sinking line and just draw it across in front of it when he arrives. I got a 40 pounder last year lik that. You can see a picture of it gracing my free fishing Log. http://www.articfire.com/arcfire/index.htm. Follow the links. They dont fight hard but this one fought long. Very long. Bob Sheedy

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Mark. We treat our carp with a bit more respect in the UK so pitchforks, bows and arrows and foul hooking fish are out. I’ve taken carp to 10Lbs on maribou tailed lures of all colours and sizes plus a few on various nymph patterns. Pre baiting a swim with grass cuttings is a method the Germans use. They tie on grass to the hook or bits of green raffene to fool the fish. Best of all is the pellet fly. This is a trimmed deer hair pattern intended to imitate a trout pellet. Get your carp stocks used to picking up free offerings of trout pellets, then cast your artificial into the fray.                          Tight lines. Dave T. writes I live near a lake full of large carp up to 40 lbs. When I was younger, I use to catch them with a spinning rod and a nightcrawler. These large trash fish fight extremely well and I think would be a great way to past the time during those hot summer months with a fly rod. Any suggestions on what type of flies one might want to use. I see them in the shallows as well as at the surface and appear to be extremely spooky. Any suggestions for flies and techniques would be greatly appreciated.

– dave tait

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Question:

I saw in another post that there is a fly fishing digest on he net.  Does anyone know how to subscribe to this or whaever it takes to find it. sounds real interesting.  please post any info on this fly fishing digest. thanks ken fritts

Response:

I saw in another post that there is a fly fishing digest on he net.  Does anyone know how to subscribe to this or whaever it takes to find it. sounds real interesting.  please post any info on this fly fishing digest. thanks

Please let me know too – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -ken fritts

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Question:

         My view on people who have sold out is someone who used to make good,    innovative, sometimes dangerous music who signed to a major and now seem intent    on making enourmous amounts of money playing dull, uninteresting music made with    a safe formula and relying on media hype to boost their income.             My list of major sell-outs would include:-                  the Rolling Stones, Genesis, M.Jackson, Madonna, Guns ‘n’ Roses           (you get the message) To the ones underlined (using "^"): I do not recall that they _ever_ pretended to be "alternative" at any time. They were _always_ mainstream from the outset. By this technicality and by your reasoning, they cannot be sellouts, since none of them were ever "innovative" or "dangerous" by your (and my own) criteria at any time in their carreers, in my opinion.  

        I stand corrected, on re-reading what I had written I can see that I had      slipped out of context for a while. I think I went away from the subject      (i.e. "alternative" music) and instead lingered on the sell-out topic.         What I tried to say (not very clearly) is that these people had made a      large quantity of good music that amassed them a very large fan-base, but when       their music quality dropped to a sub-standard level their record sales        (and hence their income) stayed at a high level due to media hype.

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        Personally I think Nevermind was pretty much a sellout album, with me it hasen’t stood the test of time, or maybe it was just overplayed too much. — Richard Stride… ‘Master Myoclonis Meets Mephisto’

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[Stuff Deleted ...] To the "alternative" loser,   I was listening to alternative music before it was grouped into a catagory     -Isn’t this a contradiction, surely you’ve categorised alternative music.     I can’t speak for people in America, but in England "alternative" music is just   that – an alternative. It’s not a type of music, you don’t listen to a song and   think "Oh yeah, that’s alternative". It’s a category into which you can slot   many types, styles and fashions – i.e. Punk, Metal, Grunge, crusty, indie etc, etc.

Same here in Canada. And I get annoyed over such interpretations of "alternative" for the same reasons.          My view on people who have sold out is someone who used to make good,    innovative, sometimes dangerous music who signed to a major and now seem intent    on making enourmous amounts of money playing dull, uninteresting music made with    a safe formula and relying on media hype to boost their income.             My list of major sell-outs would include:-                  the Rolling Stones, Genesis, M.Jackson, Madonna, Guns ‘n’ Roses

          (you get the message)

To the ones underlined (using "^"): I do not recall that they _ever_ pretended to be "alternative" at any time. They were _always_ mainstream from the outset. By this technicality and by your reasoning, they cannot be sellouts, since none of them were ever "innovative" or "dangerous" by your (and my own) criteria at any time in their carreers, in my opinion.  Sure, the Stones began their carreers with much controversy and were known as "the Bad Boys of rock and roll" and still are; but IMO, they were merely attracting attention to themselves for commercial gain and success based on the free publicity of the news media. Their "cock-rock" musical style hasn’t changed in the past 30 years, qualifying them as probably more "conservative", and less versatile, IMO, than Frank Sinatra. Same for Madonna’s "cunt-rock" style. The unchanging nature of her music kind of ranks up there with Marie Osmond. BTW, you can also add Paul Simon, and most "resurrected" ’60s rock groups, like Starship (the most extreme example), The Greatful Dead, CSN&Y, Bob Dylan, Eric Clapton (all playing it safe to a lesser extent), and Elton John (another extreme example — recall 11-17-70, Empty Sky, Yellowbrick Road & compare with ANYTHING he’s done since 1980). —

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Hiya, Could someone help me make an informed decision and post the track listing for the latest Pavement album. Thanks, E. |                                 Eric J.                                     |

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        Where the hell has anyone seen a ripped sweater for $300 for crissake!?!?  This I gotta see…js

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How do you think I must feel? I’ve been listening to snotty nosed little dweebs whining about poser’s since grade 10. Ten years ago.

wow, you were in the 10th grade in ‘83, me too.  do you remember the really bad post-punk bands of the day.  too bad i missed out on the poser bashing.  you know what’s really funny:  i still were the same clothes i did then.  then i was called a dirt-boy, now you can buy a ripped sweater for $300.  go figger. —                                   Jeff Scott

–

Response:

To all the "alternative" losers,         I have a little news for you.  You all seem to think that you are just the coolest calling bands sell-outs and making fun of all the ‘grunge’ dressers.  I’ve been sitting here reading your little arguementative articles and I think you’re all full of crap.  I was listening to alternative music before it was grouped into a catagory and just because some of my favorie bands happen to have had maybe one album hit mainstream doesn’t mean that now I should change my taste in music.  It also doesn’t mean I won’t be attending Lollapalooza’s anymore.  Those were some of the best times of my life and will be for years to come (hopefully).  It really turns my stomach to read about your opinions.  Maybe if you weren’t so close-minded you’d realize how stupid you really sound.  I didn’t post this to get a hostile response, only to make you think.  Really, you do sound like a bunch of losers. Sorry.         -Joanna

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To all the "alternative" losers,    I have a little news for you.  You all seem to think that you are just the coolest calling bands sell-outs and making fun of all the ‘grunge’ dressers.  I’ve been sitting here reading your little arguementative articles and I think you’re all full of crap.  I was listening to alternative music before it was grouped into a catagory and just because some of my favorie bands happen to have had maybe one album hit mainstream doesn’t mean that now I should change my taste in music.  It also doesn’t mean I won’t be attending Lollapalooza’s anymore.  Those were some of the best times of my life and will be for years to come (hopefully).  It really turns my stomach to read about your opinions.  Maybe if you weren’t so close-minded you’d realize how stupid you really sound.  I didn’t post this to get a hostile response, only to make you think.  Really, you do sound like a bunch of losers. Sorry.    -Joanna

yes!!! i posted an article to this effect a little while ago. i thought the whole idea of the mindset that this newsgroup is supposed to represent was being open to new things. lets stop bitching about who liked what groups when, and what groups have sold out because they need to make a living. lets start discussing music for what it is… music. its not grunge, its not alternative, its not rock, its not punk, and its not even disco. its fucking music. those terms are good as catagories for easier identification. kind of like male and female. that is all they are. what matters is the music. burnt

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How do you think I must feel? I’ve been listening to snotty nosed little dweebs whining about poser’s since grade 10. Ten years ago. —                                    Jeff Scott

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To all the "alternative" losers,    I have a little news for you.  You all seem to think that you are just the coolest calling bands sell-outs and making fun of all the ‘grunge’ dressers.  I’ve been sitting here reading your little arguementative articles and I think you’re all full of crap.  I was listening to alternative music before it was grouped into a catagory and just because some of my favorie bands happen to have had maybe one album hit mainstream doesn’t mean that now I should change my taste in music.  It also doesn’t mean I won’t be attending Lollapalooza’s anymore.  Those were some of the best times of my life and will be for years to come (hopefully).  It really turns my stomach to read about your opinions.  Maybe if you weren’t so close-minded you’d realize how stupid you really sound.  I didn’t post this to get a hostile response, only to make you think.  Really, you do sound like a bunch of losers. Sorry.    -Joanna

To the "alternative" loser,     I was listening to alternative music before it was grouped into a catagory      -Isn’t this a contradiction, surely you’ve categorised alternative music.      I can’t speak for people in America, but in England "alternative" music is just    that – an alternative. It’s not a type of music, you don’t listen to a song and    think "Oh yeah, that’s alternative". It’s a category into which you can slot    many types, styles and fashions – i.e. Punk, Metal, Grunge, crusty, indie etc, etc.          What it’s an alternative to is the "mainstream". This is nothing more than     an enourmous financial institution providing financial security and massive     wealth to many "rock stars". Corporate back-handers ensure radio and TV play     to boring, and safe music makers. These bands are of course not all guilty     many just using the extra spending powers to produce better music (mostly former     indie bands who have signed to majors).           My view on people who have sold out is someone who used to make good,     innovative, sometimes dangerous music who signed to a major and now seem intent     on making enourmous amounts of money playing dull, uninteresting music made with     a safe formula and relying on media hype to boost their income.              My list of major sell-outs would include:-                   the Rolling Stones, Genesis, M.Jackson, Miss Madonna, Guns ‘n’ Roses            (you get the message)            Bands who I think are getting dangerously close to sell-out time                    (their records are getting more and more boring):-                            U2, REM, and Simple Minds         There are countless bands I could add, but I’m not going to (so there).             I don’t think people can be critical of Nirvana yet as they haven’t        released any new material, everything they’ve released since Nevermind was        recorded before Nevermind. They could go on to write better songs      (like Mettalica have) they could progress back to their old (and less popular)   style which is more likely or they could come up with some absolute bollocks.                 Time will tell.           Meanwhile people’s opinion will come and go, birds will fly, fish will swim       and polar bears will do whatever it is polar bears do.          So my dear Joanna, let people say what they want, insults breed nothing but contempt and statements like,             It really turns my stomach to read about your opinions.          Don’t say much for freedom of speech, do they.                       Bye,                         Rob

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