Question:
Mark Rey, long time timber lobbyist is in charge of our forests, and starting to work on weakening all logging laws: Former Timber corporation lobbyist now head of our national forests: http://www.missoulian.com/archives/index.inn?loc=detail&doc=/2002/Jun… A natural split with Bush- many longtime conservative EPA officials are quitting: http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-000039065jun03.story Lawmakers offer bi-partisan protection for national forests: http://ens-news.com/ens/jun2002/2002-06-05-07.asp Congress recognizes the voice of the American people, offers bill and recognizes the 2 million public comments favoring roadless protection, concedes 60 percent of republicans favor roadless protection as well: http://www.enn.com/news/wire-stories/2002/06/06062002/reu_47454.asp Congress, industry recognize the vast majority of american citizens favor protecting our last wild and unroaded forests: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/73893_pot08.shtml — Sent by sonvolt55 from hotmail subpart from com This is a spam protected message. Please answer with reference header. Posted via http://www.usenet-replayer.com/cgi/content/new
Response:
Garbage deleted I think I will go cut down some trees tomorrow in honor of this crossposting tree hugging idiot.
Response:
Garbage deleted I think I will go cut down some trees tomorrow in honor of this crossposting tree hugging idiot.
It doesn’t count unless it lands on an endangered species…
Response:
Garbage deleted I think I will go cut down some trees tomorrow in honor of this crossposting tree hugging idiot. It doesn’t count unless it lands on an endangered species…
Careful Tripper; a glance at your medical records suggests YOU are on the list. 
Wolfgang
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Garbage deleted I think I will go cut down some trees tomorrow in honor of this crossposting tree hugging idiot. It doesn’t count unless it lands on an endangered species… Careful Tripper; a glance at your medical records suggests YOU are on the list. Wolfgang
No doubt I’d be fatally injured before I even got in range of mr. bob’s felling… /daytripper (the hits just keep on coming 
Response:
"\ I think I will go cut down some trees tomorrow in honor of this crossposting tree hugging idiot.\
I cut some trees down today. Nothing like some responsible land management. By the way, Muskie does hunt, fish and cut down trees. He isn’t the granola hippie some would think. More like a sportsman with brains.
Response:
"\ I think I will go cut down some trees tomorrow in honor of this crossposting tree hugging idiot.\ I cut some trees down today. Nothing like some responsible land management. By the way, Muskie does hunt, fish and cut down trees.
If it was nothing like responsible land management, why did you do it? He isn’t the granola hippie some would think. More like a sportsman with brains.
More like a ten year old, with no friends, and a ghetto blaster.
Response:
I cut some trees down today. Nothing like some responsible land management. By the way, Muskie does hunt, fish and cut down trees. He isn’t the granola hippie some would think. More like a sportsman with brains.
SPLORK! The musk thang is an obnoxious jerk who gets his kicks out of baiting anyone who might disagree with him with his outrageous headers. He is totally opposed to any requests to limit or curtail his off topic behavoir. He regularly morphs his nick to get around the filters of those who attempt to ignore him, and he hides behind free posting services and conceals his email because his behavior violates most ISP’s terms. He has lost a couple of accounts in the past due to the volume of complaints regarding his behavior. I could care less if he’s a hunter, a fisherman or a cross dressing dwarf, he’s still an annoying insect. If he had brains, he’d be more considerate of those who don’t want to see his posts instead of using periodic nick morphing to get around our filters. Flyfish
Response:
\More like a ten year old, with no friends, and a ghetto blaster.\ I have had the pleasure of fishing with Muskie on several occasions, twice on the San Juan and once on the Kootenai. He has a gorgeous blonde girlfriend(ive never seen so many stares in my direction thanks to walking with her on several occasions), a nice ride and an even nicer selection of fly rods. Perhaps you are jealous of that? He is a positive, hopeful person and people seem to gravitate to him. He, like I also have the glorious choices of fishing in a still unspoiled setting, which is something you don’t have Mike. Perhaps if someone in Europe had spoken up and made noise a long time ago the fishing and habitat wouldnt be so poor now, and the choices so few.
Response:
Musty Ass has spoken.
Response:
\More like a ten year old, with no friends, and a ghetto blaster.\ I have had the pleasure of fishing with Muskie on several occasions, twice on the San Juan and once on the Kootenai.
I could not care less about his girlfriend or his fly-rods. The only thing I care about, is the fact that he costs me money with his constant Usenet abuse. The problem is solved for me at least. I have unsubscribed from rec.outdoors.fishing.fly as it is simply too expensive to download all the rubbish. I will occasionally have a look in, using Google ( where I don
Question:
Ouch, time for bed. I forgot to say that the C&R does help increase numbers of fish. I also agree with the concept that too many = bad and some should be taken out. When my wife wants to eat fish I will keep a few if I am fishing in a spot that I know will not miss them. I have fished certain streams, lakes and rivers that cannot afford to miss them so I C&R. I think 100% of either side is a little extreme. Now I can get some sleep. Thanks for your patience. Warren (Ain’t life in the gray area GREAT?!?!)
Response:
Warren writes: I think 100% of either side is a little extreme.
..my point, exactly. Blaming one side or the other for overall complex ecological issues merely divides what should be a common interest group. Tom Littleton
Response:
Howdy gang, Sorry to vent but I don’t know where else to scream. I went to my favorite mid summer fishing hole. This is a southern cal river that is mostly just some deep ponds during the summer months with some sunfish and smallmouth bass. On Sunday I went to my favorite pond to cast flies to my "friends" (a small group of 2lb smallmouth) and to my horrors, they were all gone. Some catchnkill moron had come through and taken those bass. Ya know, they could provide great fun all summer and fall to fly fishers if some loon didn’t kill them. Why is it people still do this? They probably took em home, cooked one, nearly puked on the result, and threw the rest in the trash. Its a shame. -John
Response:
Some catchnkill moron had come through and taken those bass. Ya know, they could provide great fun all summer and fall to fly fishers if some loon didn’t kill them. Why is it people still do this? They probably took em home, cooked one, nearly puked on the result, and threw the rest in the trash. Its a shame. -John
Did you see the fish removed from the pond??? Isn’t it even remotely possible that either some other factor caused your lack of success??? I primarily fish C&R, but I don’t feel it is right to label a person as a moron because he keeps a few fish to eat. The "meat fisherman" or "poacher" cleaning out a hot spot is the most cammon excuse for a lack of success where I live, and I guess where you live too. George Adams – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
Personally, if your keeping fish from a river, I would say 85 is a bit high….. Not to be confused with lakes and sustainable populations, and highly prolific species. With the numbers of fisherpersons on todays rivers…..I just don’t feel the math supports even keeping a few. fishermen ‘raise fish’ fisheaters buy fish fishkillers kill fish
Response:
Yea, what George and Jonathan said.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Howdy gang, Sorry to vent but I don’t know where else to scream. I went to my favorite mid summer fishing hole. This is a southern cal river that is mostly just some deep ponds during the summer months with some sunfish and smallmouth bass. On Sunday I went to my favorite pond to cast flies to my "friends" (a small group of 2lb smallmouth) and to my horrors, they were all gone. Some catchnkill moron had come through and taken those bass. Ya know, they could provide great fun all summer and fall to fly fishers if some loon didn’t kill them. Why is it people still do this? They probably took em home, cooked one, nearly puked on the result, and threw the rest in the trash. Its a shame. -John
– Particle Salad/ Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad
Response:
Your letter is a prime example of a holier than thou catch and release attitude. Healthy fisheries survive angling. Stressed fisheries do less well. Heal your streams,limit your angling and encourage others to do likewise. Then, you may see better conditions, and appreciate the outdoors and angling for what it can offer. Tom Littleton
Blah blah blah (not being rude). Catch and release is a viable option! Just recently their was an article in the paper about how there were too many fish in the Big Hole because too many people practiced catch and release. Fish and Wildlife was worried with the heat that too many fish would die which happened a while back. There are several other examples of how catch and release can improve the quality of fishing. Albeit it is not a 100% solution, but sometimes every little bit helps. I keep a fish or two every year so I am not 100% C&R, but do see a lot of value in it. Warren
Response:
John Lacell writes : On Sunday I went to my favorite pond to cast flies to my "friends" (a small group of 2lb smallmouth) and to my horrors, they were all gone
One can only wonder if the friendship were mutual. Ya know, they could provide great fun all summer and fall to fly fishers if some loon didn’t kill them.
No, they eventually would have been stressed to death with enough hooking and habitat invasion. Plus, how do you know that they were killed by angling as you infer. Highly unlikely it is that all of them would be caught. Your letter is a prime example of a holier than thou catch and release attitude. Healthy fisheries survive angling. Stressed fisheries do less well. Heal your streams,limit your angling and encourage others to do likewise. Then, you may see better conditions, and appreciate the outdoors and angling for what it can offer. Tom Littleton
Response:
Question:
Thanks for the help, guys…. SpEEdo… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He’s asking 17,500 on the side of it. It’s a helluva deal with that big tuna tower and all the fishing rigging. However, I’ve talked to 8 long-time sport fishermen about it and they told me Pacemaker had some I had one of these (1973) for sale two years ago. It is great for near coastal cruising.. It has a relatively low center of gravity making it very stable. It isn’t a full V hull as it is very flat in the stern. This allows it acess to shallower water, but makes it pound more in the steep chop. The flying bridge is fairly small. but adequate. The fellow who bought it uses it in the L.I. sound regularly, and loves it. There was no problem with blisters or delaminations. I think the $17,000 is a little high even rigged for offshore. I sold the one at my place for $12,000 with two near new engines. No fishing equiptment though. Boatbasin http://www.boatbasin.com
Response:
<snip However, I’ve talked to 8 long-time sport fishermen about it and they told me Pacemaker had some AWFUL problems with blisters, delaminations and other ugly things that put the company out of business…..yecch.
What years were the eight? An old-time marine surveyor told me that boats made before the Arab oil embargo of the mid-seventies had few if any problems with blisters. Only after the embargo hit and oil prices went sky-high did manufacturers start tampering with resin formulations and unknowingly create blister city. The boat in question is a ‘72 model and may be perfectly blister-free. Bill, W7TI
Response:
He’s asking 17,500 on the side of it. It’s a helluva deal with that big tuna tower and all the fishing rigging. However, I’ve talked to 8 long-time sport fishermen about it and they told me Pacemaker had some
I had one of these (1973) for sale two years ago. It is great for near coastal cruising.. It has a relatively low center of gravity making it very stable. It isn’t a full V hull as it is very flat in the stern. This allows it acess to shallower water, but makes it pound more in the steep chop. The flying bridge is fairly small. but adequate. The fellow who bought it uses it in the L.I. sound regularly, and loves it. There was no problem with blisters or delaminations. I think the $17,000 is a little high even rigged for offshore. I sold the one at my place for $12,000 with two near new engines. No fishing equiptment though. Boatbasin http://www.boatbasin.com
Response:
There’s one for sale in Charleston I have to walk by every time I go to my bud’s sailboat. It had a little smoke damage from a fire in a home air conditioner he used but has been completely restored inside. It has radar/sonar/GPS/tv/microwave/Loran/2 alarms/lights/water/well, you get the idea. He’s asking 17,500 on the side of it. It’s a helluva deal with that big tuna tower and all the fishing rigging. However, I’ve talked to 8 long-time sport fishermen about it and they told me Pacemaker had some AWFUL problems with blisters, delaminations and other ugly things that put the company out of business…..yecch. Sure is tempting….it’s still floating, the new AC/heat pump is pumping and I see lights inside the stained-glass windows….(c; SpEEdo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am considering a 30′ Pacemaker – 1972. The owner says the model is Sportfish, but it sure has a small cockpit. It has a fly bridge and lower helm station which behind the step down salon/galley. This open helm area extends quite a way into the cockpit and includes the engine hatches (it has a fighting chair) and the cockpit seems quite short. I wonder if this is more a Cruiser model than a SF and if I’d get a better fishing boat if I looked for a later model. Does anyone have any knowledge of these models? I have looked in the "Sportfishing Boats 28-82′" guide and the oldest Pacemaker they show is a 1973 that has a different layout. The boat is in very good condition with outriggers, 489 hrs on 220/hp chryslers, older electronics (no GPS or radar) – he is asking $19K. Does this sound reasonable?? Thanks!
Response:
I am considering a 30′ Pacemaker – 1972. The owner says the model is Sportfish, but it sure has a small cockpit. It has a fly bridge and lower helm station which behind the step down salon/galley. This open helm area extends quite a way into the cockpit and includes the engine hatches (it has a fighting chair) and the cockpit seems quite short. I wonder if this is more a Cruiser model than a SF and if I’d get a better fishing boat if I looked for a later model. Does anyone have any knowledge of these models? I have looked in the "Sportfishing Boats 28-82′" guide and the oldest Pacemaker they show is a 1973 that has a different layout. The boat is in very good condition with outriggers, 489 hrs on 220/hp chryslers, older electronics (no GPS or radar) – he is asking $19K. Does this sound reasonable?? Thanks!
Response:
I wouldn’t trust the reliability of the hourmeter. You need both a survey and a mechanic to check out your boat to decide if 19K is a good price. — — Jim Proud, but feeble minded Regal Owner Three can keep a secret, if two of them are dead.
| I am considering a 30′ Pacemaker – 1972. The owner says the model is | Sportfish, but it sure has a small cockpit. It has a fly bridge and lower | helm station which behind the step down salon/galley. This open helm area | extends quite a way into the cockpit and includes the engine hatches (it has | a fighting chair) and the cockpit seems quite short. | | I wonder if this is more a Cruiser model than a SF and if I’d get a better | fishing boat if I looked for a later model. Does anyone have any knowledge of | these models? I have looked in the "Sportfishing Boats 28-82′" guide and the | oldest Pacemaker they show is a 1973 that has a different layout. | | The boat is in very good condition with outriggers, 489 hrs on 220/hp | chryslers, older electronics (no GPS or radar) – he is asking $19K. Does this | sound reasonable?? | | Thanks! |
Response:
Question:
I thought friction was normal force times coefficient of friction. Nowhere mentioning pressure or area. Deflation is for soft surfaces where pressure does need to be reduced? pqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpq Grasping another opportunity to be wrong! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
Response:
Man, sand on concrete can REALLY cause you to slip!
This isn’t sand on concrete (like a building site) but sand on a concrete boat ramp. All the ramps I’ve seen have been pretty slippery with weed and green gunk. If I used the same ramp every day, I’d scrub the thing clean and use Jeyes fluid or caustic soda on it occasionally to keep the gunk off. I know little about boat ramps, but I do know about silage clamps and slurry lagoons (bleurgh !) – even for these noxious devices it’s worth doing a bit of scrubbing & hosing occasionally. Failing that, get as big a contact patch as you can. Soft rubber in small tread blocks (not great mud-plugger tread bars) and a low enough pressure to let the tyre flatten as much as is practical. — alt.flame – Making the world a safer place for postal workers.
Response:
*snip* months, and I’d appreciate some input. In addition, I think it’d make an interesting discussion topic, as well. Ron Morgan Ron, I have a Full size Dodge Van and have never had a problem pulling the boat up the ramp, except for one occasion. It was a really long and very wet ramp. I was having problems with wheel spin, I remember reading somthing about turning your front tires, (somthing about changing the pull ratio) and also applying the parking brake a bit.
You must have a non-posi rear end on your van… The emergency brake trick worked on my ‘91 Dakota when semi-stuck in sand (I had a non-posi rearend). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Boat pulled right out with out any wheel spin what-so-ever. Good luck. Michael
Response:
The next time this happens, try letting some air out of the rear tires – enough to increase the footprint somewhat. Be sure to air up again at the first opportunity. (Longrigger) writes: | Have your buddies jump in the back of the truck to give it wieght. | I have stuck the floor mats in front of the tires once when I was alone | and got stuck, but sand would be alot better. | | Longrigger
Try pulling up the anchor on the boat… (I couldn’t resist!) No, really… Tire pressure helps a ton, and the start of the pull is the most important part. Once underway, roll into the throttle, but maintain traction… (I think that all of the answers I have read here would help.) …Sam
Response:
Ron To get the best traction on a wet surface (a boat ramp) look for an all season tire with a high volume of tread surfaces. This type of tire will have a lot of tiny cuts in the tread design. When the tire is stressed pulling a load, this type of tread will flex and the edges of these cuts will grip the road surface. Do Not consider the course off road tread design! It has the worst hard surface traction. You should also be very light on the gas pedal. A posi traction differential is also a big help if it is kept maintained and the clutches adjusted. Would you believe I pull a 3800 lb boat up steep boat ramps with a chev s-10 with no problems? Good Luck Wayne
Response:
Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower.
. . . . Ron Morgan
Since you have more than enough horsepower – if one rear wheel starts to spin, hold the parking brake release open and apply the parking brake. If you apply hard enough, both wheels will receive power. You can also try stabbing at the parking brake if the engine does not have enough power. Not a sure fire thing. But it is another trick to but in your bag. Terry Dobie 83 CJ7 Hailey, ID
Response:
I use my Jeep Grand Cherokee to haul my boat. I learned the hard way that you have to ease into the pull. I use an awefull ramp in East Falmouth Cape Cod that is always covered in a thin layer of scum. On one occasion, I was sort of hurried by other boaters waiting to get out of the water and I pulled to fast. Before I knew it, my tires were spinning and I was moving backward. OOOOPS! Thank god I stopped on time. I now make sure that my air pressure is a little lower (more surface space), and that I ease into the pull. At this one particular ramp, I often throw handfulls of sand onto the algae to create a little traction. I read a lot of others posts where sand is the enemy, but in this scenerio, it works well. Good luck David
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out. My truck can just BARELY pull the boat up the ramp under these conditions. If it’s dry, no problem, but when the ramp is wet, the tires slip and spin, sometimes even smoking. It’s a very, very marginal situation. Last night, I came very close to being stranded at a deserted ramp after dark; I could *not* get that boat up that ramp, and finally made it up after creeping about an inch at a time, before the tires would slip. God only knows what kind of wear this produced on my transmission. Question: what kind of tire tread design would provide the *most* friction? Knobby, off-road type, or a smoother "pavement" type? Remember, by the way, that this is extremely low-speed operation, just barely turning, in fact, so concepts like "hydroplaning" probably wouldn’t apply here. We’re talking about pulling a load up a wet concrete surface. How about it, you guys? I need to buy new tires for my truck in another couple of months, and I’d appreciate some input. In addition, I think it’d make an interesting discussion topic, as well. Ron Morgan
Ron, I have a Full size Dodge Van and have never had a problem pulling the boat up the ramp, except for one occasion. It was a really long and very wet ramp. I was having problems with wheel spin, I remember reading somthing about turning your front tires, (somthing about changing the pull ratio) and also applying the parking brake a bit. Boat pulled right out with out any wheel spin what-so-ever. Good luck. Michael
Response:
How about it, you guys? I need to buy new tires for my truck in another couple of months, and I’d appreciate some input. In addition, I think it’d make an interesting discussion topic, as well.
Er, does that imply that your current tires are rather bald? If so, ‘nuf said. Relative weight of vehicle and tow is important. (If the wheels on your trailer are bigger than the wheels on your tow vehicle, you’re in trouble. Saw a Chicago flatlander trying to tow a large boat with his Beamer. Didn’t make it.) In your case, the truck should have enough towing weight, but the question is about weight on the rear wheels. o The angle of the ramp tends to transfer more weight to the rear wheels. o Tounge weight of the trailer is important. I am hauling a smaller 14′ runabout (40 horse motor) with a Ranger pickup in a similar situation. I have no problems. o I have a stick, so can control things better. o When I was towing with a station wagon and automatic, I would: o Put the transmission in second o Step on the brake o Give it some gas. o Use the break as a clutch, slowly easing up so that there was no jerk in the initial pull. Frank R. Borger – Physicist ___ "I think medical research would show Michael Reese – U of Chicago |___ that being a Cubs fan lengthens Center for Radiation Therapy | |_) _ your life. Or maybe it just _seems_ ph: 312-791-8075 fa: 791-2517 |_)
Response:
Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out.
After many years of enjoying the entertainment of watching people pull boats out at a wide variety of ramps throughout the western US, I know this: The initial pull to get a boat up out of the water is substantial, if you think of how hard it is to pull a small water skier up out of the water, imaging something with 30 times the weight and surface tension and bad hydrodynamics (the trailer…not the boat!) Many people think the best approach is to try to accelerate quickly to "get the damn thing going!", so they give their rig too much throttle. Once you break adhesion on a slick surface, you cannot pull a load equivalent to before you spun the wheels. So if it spins, let off the throttle and let the wheels catch traction. Then, try again with less acceleration. Don’t think that spinning your wheels faster will get you up the ramp, ’cause it will only make it harder to get out. As other posts have said, lowering your tire pressure a little will help a lot. But I have found on most ramps I can get my boat out by just driving a little more gently and not starting the spinning. I find an auto trans works better, since you can accelerate from a standstill very slowly without having to dump the clutch. But I have had several trucks with 4 speeds and a couple of 5 speeds. You just gotta take it easy, and don’t try to pull the boat out fast.
Response:
How about it, you guys? I need to buy new tires for my truck in another couple of months, and I’d appreciate some input. In addition, I think it’d make an interesting discussion topic, as well. Ron Morgan
Wide, sticky tires in my opinion. Though they spread the weight out more, there is more surface for gripping. It will reduce fuel economy somewhat though. Also, I would worry more about hydroplaning on FRONT wheels where you could loose steering control. You might try putting some weight over that axle or letting 5lb of air out if you get stranded. George Bonser
Response:
I thought friction was normal force times coefficient of friction. Nowhere mentioning pressure or area. Deflation is for soft surfaces where pressure does need to be reduced? … Grasping another opportunity to be wrong!
seems you caught this opportunity nicely That’s the description you find in physics 101, but it doesn’t work well in this case. It works for flat surfaces in contact (with a few other assumptions). When you add rough surfaces, compressible and deformable surfaces, and weak surface features (like sand on the ramp) that can withstand only a (smallish) maximum force before breaking away, then surface area and tread play an important role.
Response:
Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out. Ron Morgan
I stuck my truck in Galveston Bay this way. My solution was to buy an old CJ5. Now I drop into 4 wheel drive in low range. And no problem. A cheaper alternative is to mount a trailer ball on the front which keeps those rear wheels way up out of the water. cfly — Charlie and Dorothy Fly Non-Trivial Solutions 2951 Marina Bay Dr. Suite 130-349 League City, TX 77573-2733
Response:
he one with the lower tread life would be better. You could also get a bit wider tires. I’ve also seen people with a bucket of sand they toss out to get a better grip.
Man, sand on concrete can REALLY cause you to slip! Sand on ICE is ok but no sand is better on non-frozen concrete. George Bonser
Response:
Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out. My truck can just BARELY pull the boat up the ramp under these conditions. If it’s dry, no problem, but when the ramp is wet, the tires slip and spin, sometimes even smoking. It’s a very, very marginal situation. Last night, I came very close to being stranded at a deserted ramp after dark; I could *not* get that boat up that ramp, and finally made it up after creeping about an inch at a time, before the tires would slip. God only knows what kind of wear this produced on my transmission. Question: what kind of tire tread design would provide the *most* friction? Knobby, off-road type, or a smoother "pavement" type? Remember, by the way, that this is extremely low-speed operation, just barely turning, in fact, so concepts like "hydroplaning" probably wouldn’t apply here. We’re talking about pulling a load up a wet concrete surface. How about it, you guys? I need to buy new tires for my truck in another couple of months, and I’d appreciate some input. In addition, I think it’d make an interesting discussion topic, as well. Ron Morgan
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out. My truck can just BARELY pull the boat up the ramp under these conditions. If it’s dry, no problem, but when the ramp is wet, the tires slip and spin, sometimes even smoking. It’s a very, very marginal situation. Last night, I came very close to being stranded at a deserted ramp after dark; I could *not* get that boat up that ramp, and finally made it up after creeping about an inch at a time, before the tires would slip. God only knows what kind of wear this produced on my transmission. Question: what kind of tire tread design would provide the *most* friction? Knobby, off-road type, or a smoother "pavement" type? Remember, by the way, that this is extremely low-speed operation, just barely turning, in fact, so concepts like "hydroplaning" probably wouldn’t apply here. We’re talking about pulling a load up a wet concrete surface. How about it, you guys? I need to buy new tires for my truck in another couple of months, and I’d appreciate some input. In addition, I think it’d make an interesting discussion topic, as well. Ron Morgan
Ron I had the same ‘problem’ with my old truck (‘91 Dakota with limited slip). I would put up a slippery ramp and one tire would spin (no posi!)… I helped the situation by putting all of the crap in the back of the truck that was in the boat, to put more weight over the rear tires (Coolers, skis, gas cans, clothes, etc.) This made a difference. I don’t know what type of truck you have, or if it has posi, but with my NEW ‘95 Dakota w/posi + 5 speed I am able to pull that same boat, with all of the crap still in the boat, with no problem out of the same ramp. I do run a lower tire pressure, as this tends to put more rubber onto the ground, giving more traction. You might try that too…(it wouldn’t hurt). BTW If you didn’t already know this, when pulling out of a boat ramp with a automatic trans, and you work pretty hard to pull that boat up (any pull should be considered) the ramp, make sure you don’t pull up to the staging area and shut off your truck while securing you boat. All of the heat generated by the pull will not leave the transmission (as it didn’t get cooled yet by the transmission cooler)…and can cause a lot of wear/tear/damage to your transmission. My bone-head friend went through 2 transmissions over 2 seasons going to the Colorado river with his boat. Every time he got it out of the water he would shut down, secure the boat, then take off…with an air temp of about 110 F. that truck would almost boil the transmission fluid!!! He learned. I got a 5 speed ( no cooler needed!), and it works a lot better than a automatic (at least for me it does). My $.02 ..Sam
Response:
& Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 & pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The & boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, & of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower. & Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off & other boats that were just pulled out. & My truck can just BARELY pull the boat up the ramp under these & conditions. If it’s dry, no problem, but when the ramp is wet, & the tires slip and spin, sometimes even smoking. It’s a very, & very marginal situation. Last night, I came very close to being & stranded at a deserted ramp after dark; I could *not* get that & boat up that ramp, and finally made it up after creeping about an & inch at a time, before the tires would slip. God only knows what & kind of wear this produced on my transmission. You don’t say what the truck is, but does it have a limited slip differential (pozi-trac, sure-grip, etc)? If not that would get you double the traction. They can be added to many of the trucks out there. Hewlett Packard (707) 794-4848 fax (707) 538-3693 home 1212 Valley House Drive http://web.sr.hp.com/~frankb/ Rohnert Park CA 94928-4999 KC6WUG, AMA, DoD #7566, NMLRA, I’m the NRA. U.S.A. Dodge V8 Dakota, Yamaha IT175 XT350 YZF600R Seca 750
Response:
Almost everybody I know has had the same problem with some combination of boats, ramps and tow vehicles. I have better traction on my jeep since I moved up on tire size. The tires are all weather radials. I can still spin all 4 tires if the ramp is mucky enough. Just having new tires will make a difference because the rubber will be softer and the thicker tread will be more compliant than on the older tires. My neighbor mounted a hitch ball on the front bumper of his 2WD truck which let him keep his rear tires high and dry. This can be particularly important at low tide, especially on ramps in estuaries that tend to silt up and/or grow moss. I carried a 20 foot heavy duty tow rope for several years untill the size of my tow vehicle caught up with my boat. I have also seen tongue extensions used for the same purpose. Many sailboaters use these because a keelboat has to be sent WAY back before it will float off the trailer. They either telescope out of the trailer tongue or are carried along side. Some of them even have their own wheels on them that will take much more abuse than a standard trailer jack wheel. My jeep has mushy rear springs and a short wheelbase, so I don’t run with much tongue weight. You can usually run much more tongue weight on a real truck like yours. 300 or 400 lbs of tongue weight, if you are not already running that much, could do a lot for your traction problems. Check with the truck manufacturer to see what they recommend. vaaler
Response:
Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out.
Ron, Missed the original post… but here’s a technique I use to get my boat up the ramp that works pretty well. Then I’ll add an emergency method that is nice to keep in reserve. As with you, I’ve found that getting a boat up a wet ramp can be no small task. I have a 24 ft Grady White, pulled by a new (OHC 4.6L V8) Mercury Marquis (has towing package, no "de Sade" option). I also use a GMC P/U, 2WD, also with towing option, also V8 automatic. The idea is to kinda simulate what anti-lock brakes do to help create an anti-slip traction control. When you get ready to pull out, keep your foot on the brake, hard. Push on the accelerator to get the engine RPMs up (and thus power), by spinning up the torque converter. This is kinda like those brake starts you used to do from a traffic light with Dad’s old Galaxie 500. (Oh sure, like you never did it?!?) Now s-l-o-w-l-y lift pressure off of the brake until the vehicle and trailer just start to move. Then KEEP YOUR BRAKE FOOT IN THIS POSITION UNTIL YOU GET MOVING WELL UP THE RAMP. Modulate your speed with the brake foot. Leave the accelerator foot pretty far or all the way down. The brakes are helping to minimize wheel spin! Taa Daa… Poor man’s traction control! YMMV, and I won’t vouch for any affects on the drivetrain (geez, you’re pulling a big ol’ boat anyhow, and the amount of time it takes to do this is probably 15 seconds or so…) An alternate, and by my vote emergency, method is to use the boat to help get you started. This one can be a bit dicey. It can work it you sink in your trailer enough (drive on type…). As the car starts to pull out, put the boat in gear and gun it. As you get going, kill the boat engine and tilt up. Obviously, timing is key here. Could bend a lower unit or prop; could ride up on the trailer into the tow vehicle… I don’t recommend this technique except in an emergency. It beats leaving the boat at the dock until the tide rises, or worse yet, launching the boat, trailer and tow vehicle…. Both methods can be combined. —Steve Steve Cutchen If we always do what we’ve always done,
Response:
Have your buddies jump in the back of the truck to give it wieght. I have stuck the floor mats in front of the tires once when I was alone and got stuck, but sand would be alot better. Longrigger
Response:
writes: Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out. [...]
Believe it or not, we have a fairly steep ramp here at our marina, and one of the simplest, although not safest ways to do it is to have someone stand on the trailer tongue and hang on to the boat while it’s being removed. The extra weight on the tongue will most frequently permit lightweight conversion vans and passenger vehicles to make their way up without slippage. Like I said, this isn’t the safest way, and we do it based on experience rather than have customers do it themselves. $.02 more . . . — SELKIRK LIGHTHOUSE Jim Walker, Keeper Lighthouse Marina Voice: 315-298-6688 P.O. Box 228 Fax: 315-298-6685 ‘SELKIRK LIGHTHOUSE Home Page’ ‘http://www.maine.com:80/lights’ ‘WWW-VL: Lighthouses, Lightships & Lifesaving Stations’ ‘http://www.maine.com:80/lights/www_vl.htm’ ‘Salmon River/Lake Ontario Sportfishing Reports’ ‘http://www.maine.com:80/fish-ny’
Response:
Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out. Ron Morgan
Ron – When you buy your tires, make sure you get a better traction rating. Talk to the tire dealer about traction ratings and wet pavement. He may help you out tremendously. (Softer tires may wear quicker.) Other solutions to consider can make a big difference : 1. Put a couple hundred pounds of sand bags or blocks in the very back of the truck. Spinning can be caused by not enough weight on the rear wheels. 2. Adjust your boat on the trailer to increase the tongue weight of the trailer (not to an extreme). With the boat further on the trailer, you will get more weight on the truck tires. 3. Next truck, get limited slip differential to use both back wheels instead of one. Good luck and may all your ramps be dry ones, Joe
Response:
Question: what kind of tire tread design would provide the *most* friction? Knobby, off-road type, or a smoother "pavement" type? Remember, by the way, that this is extremely low-speed operation, just barely turning, in fact, so concepts like "hydroplaning" probably wouldn’t apply here. We’re talking about pulling a load up a wet concrete surface. How about it, you guys? I need to buy new tires for my truck in another couple of months, and I’d appreciate some input. In addition, I think it’d make an interesting discussion topic, as well.
There’s a lot coming into play. I find all terrains are significantly better than road tires. I would assume mudders are even better. My guess would be that the deep tread actually allows some of the edges of the tread to grip the ramp, cause there’s certainly lower area in contact. Course that also means greater psi. Another factor is the softness of the rubber. I would suspect that given two identical tires, the one with the lower tread life would be better. You could also get a bit wider tires. I’ve also seen people with a bucket of sand they toss out to get a better grip. No-one really complains about sand at a launch ramp. kevin
Response:
Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out.
[...] have you tried deflating the rear tyres a bit? you’d get a larger contact area. andrew — work phone/fax: 0131 668 8356, office: 0131 668 8357 institute for astronomy, royal observatory, blackford hill, edinburgh http://www.roe.ac.uk/ajcwww
Response:
