Question:

I’m relatively new to Colorado — but I’ve been flyfishing for some 16 years now (finally getting decent . I’m interested in finding some fishing partners and/or perhaps getting an informal fishing club going? I know about TU, but I’m looking more for a small group that would like to get together once or twice a month and swap fish tales and organize outings…… any interest? Or any groups like this out there?

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Response:

check out the FEderation of Flyfisher’s website.  They have links to local clubs you can check into.  Click the link for FFF clubs and look under "by state" for Colorado. http://www.fedflyfishers.org Best of luck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m relatively new to Colorado — but I’ve been flyfishing for some 16 years now (finally getting decent . I’m interested in finding some fishing partners and/or perhaps getting an informal fishing club going? I know about TU, but I’m looking more for a small group that would like to get together once or twice a month and swap fish tales and organize outings…… any interest? Or any groups like this out there? —

Response:

Sorry there was a typo in my instructions.  It should be by region, not by state. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – check out the FEderation of Flyfisher’s website.  They have links to local clubs you can check into.  Click the link for FFF clubs and look under "by state" for Colorado. http://www.fedflyfishers.org Best of luck I’m relatively new to Colorado — but I’ve been flyfishing for some 16 years now (finally getting decent . I’m interested in finding some fishing partners and/or perhaps getting an informal fishing club going? I know about TU, but I’m looking more for a small group that would like to get together once or twice a month and swap fish tales and organize outings…… any interest? Or any groups like this out there? —

Response:

Question:

They also caught a jurassic trout… here’s the web and mail address – http://www.carlsons.co.uk as i said, the flies are satisfactory, but not the quality ties that you can get from waldo. jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What’s their web-address, those flies catch Upper class fish! — Op "Look, strange women lying around in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.  Supreme executive power is derived from a mandate from the masses, not from some  farcical aquatic ceremony.  I mean, if I went around saying I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they’d put me away. -Dennis the (Bloody) peasant- All Companies will have an incident now and then with one product or another but it’s the way they handle it and the extent to which they are willing to go to make amends that set the class acts apart from the rest….and that goes for the guy at the local shop as well. Maybe I’m just being cynical, Hawkeye, but I wonder whether the fact that you discussed this problem on ROFF had anything to do with Orvis’s extreme generousity? some time ago, i posted about problems with some flies i bought from Carlson’s, a tackle shop in England.  the flies cost 45 cents, and were well worth the price…BUT, they were shipped by regular mail in an envelope.  In the crossing to my mailbox, the flies were damaged because of the packaging – or lack thereof.  i sent a copy of my post to Carlson’s.  soon afterward, the owner of Carlson’s sent me an e-mail apologizing for the problem. a few weeks later, i received replacements in a nice flybox – all in good condition, and with a nice note. heck…maybe you guys have some value after all. <G jeff

Response:

Maybe I’m just being cynical, Hawkeye, but I wonder whether the fact that you discussed this problem on ROFF had anything to do with Orvis’s extreme generousity?

Maybe I’m just being cynical, rw, but I wonder if you’re not overestimating the influence of ROFF? Related good service anecdote: I had one of Sci Anglers Mastery Series AST Lines that got worn out in a single season. I found this kind of frustrating since it was an expensive line… but in retrospect I probably could have taken better care of it (it wasn’t stored well and I used a bunch of DEET bug stuff while fishing the line on numerous occasions). I was looking in my local fly shop and the owner suggested rather than buy a new line, I might want to send the old one back to SA. I did. A couple of weeks later I got brand new one, no questions asked.  I’m loyal to both the Shop and SA now after such good support from both. And my line is still in good shape – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

All Companies will have an incident now and then with one product or another but it’s the way they handle it and the extent to which they are willing to go to make amends that set the class acts apart from the rest….

At work, if someone goofs and worries we might lose a customer, I remind them it’s actually a great opportunity.  You buy from company A and there’s nothing wrong with the product.  You buy from company B, but there’s something wrong with the product.  Company B falls all over themselves trying to make up for it, and goes "beyond the call of duty".  Which company do you buy from next time?  Not an easy one to answer, but lots of people would choose company B. Regards, Jeff

Response:

All Companies will have an incident now and then with one product or another but it’s the way they handle it and the extent to which they are willing to go to make amends that set the class acts apart from the rest….and that goes for the guy at the local shop as well.

Maybe I’m just being cynical, Hawkeye, but I wonder whether the fact that you discussed this problem on ROFF had anything to do with Orvis’s extreme generousity? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Based on the couple experiences with orvis customer service this would be typical. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All Companies will have an incident now and then with one product or another but it’s the way they handle it and the extent to which they are willing to go to make amends that set the class acts apart from the rest….and that goes for the guy at the local shop as well. Maybe I’m just being cynical, Hawkeye, but I wonder whether the fact that you discussed this problem on ROFF had anything to do with Orvis’s extreme generousity? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Based on the couple experiences with orvis customer service this would be typical.

—– I have NEVER regretted buying anything from Orvis.  Hard to beat their customer service.  Now, if only the phone company was like Orvis… —- Padishar Creel "What do we live for if it is not to make life less difficult to each other."  – George Eliot

Response:

I received a call today from an Orvis company representative for the northeast inquiring about the problems I had with their Clearwater breathable waders.  Apparently, the owner of the Orvis shop I frequent called them to voice his displeasure over the matter and he told them about my experience with two brand new pairs leaking.  The rep. informed me of a problem they had with a vendor they had contracted with to produce the waders and how they identified the cause and remedied the situation.  He was very apologetic and assured me the problems were behind them (incidentally, the problems were even more prevelant in their stockingfoot models) For my troubles he is sending me a new pair of waders at no cost which I think is very fair and frankly unexpected since I had received a credit for the ones I returned.  Now I’ve got waders aplenty having just received new Dan Bailey breathables (and love them). All Companies will have an incident now and then with one product or another but it’s the way they handle it and the extent to which they are willing to go to make amends that set the class acts apart from the rest….and that goes for the guy at the local shop as well. Natty (wishing he had given me a 9′ nine weight for salmon fishing instead  :-)  ) Before you buy.

Response:

What’s their web-address, those flies catch Upper class fish! — Op "Look, strange women lying around in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.  Supreme executive power is derived from a mandate from the masses, not from some  farcical aquatic ceremony.  I mean, if I went around saying I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they’d put me away. -Dennis the (Bloody) peasant-

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All Companies will have an incident now and then with one product or another but it’s the way they handle it and the extent to which they are willing to go to make amends that set the class acts apart from the rest….and that goes for the guy at the local shop as well. Maybe I’m just being cynical, Hawkeye, but I wonder whether the fact that you discussed this problem on ROFF had anything to do with Orvis’s extreme generousity? some time ago, i posted about problems with some flies i bought from Carlson’s, a tackle shop in England.  the flies cost 45 cents, and were well worth the price…BUT, they were shipped by regular mail in an envelope.  In the crossing to my mailbox, the flies were damaged because of the packaging – or lack thereof.  i sent a copy of my post to Carlson’s.  soon afterward, the owner of Carlson’s sent me an e-mail apologizing for the problem. a few weeks later, i received replacements in a nice flybox – all in good condition, and with a nice note. heck…maybe you guys have some value after all. <G jeff

Response:

Maybe I’m just being cynical, Hawkeye, but I wonder whether the fact that you discussed this problem on ROFF had anything to do with Orvis’s extreme generousity?

I guess it’s possible RW…. the truth is I never gave that a thought. Given the fact that he called me at my home # AND left a message on my voice mail at the office I seriously doubt it was a ROFF induced action.  He told me that he got my #s from the owner of the Orvis shop who called him about the wader probs.  I wouldn’t for a second doubt the shop owner’s word and have no cause to doubt the reps either. Your point is well taken though…is ROFF really that well known in "the biz"? Maybe in the future I should not mention brand/company names?  I for one would like to know when someone else has had a problem with a product. Natty

Response:

All Companies will have an incident now and then with one product or another but it’s the way they handle it and the extent to which they are willing to go to make amends that set the class acts apart from the rest….and that goes for the guy at the local shop as well. Maybe I’m just being cynical, Hawkeye, but I wonder whether the fact that you discussed this problem on ROFF had anything to do with Orvis’s extreme generousity?

some time ago, i posted about problems with some flies i bought from Carlson’s, a tackle shop in England.  the flies cost 45 cents, and were well worth the price…BUT, they were shipped by regular mail in an envelope.  In the crossing to my mailbox, the flies were damaged because of the packaging – or lack thereof.  i sent a copy of my post to Carlson’s.  soon afterward, the owner of Carlson’s sent me an e-mail apologizing for the problem. a few weeks later, i received replacements in a nice flybox – all in good condition, and with a nice note. heck…maybe you guys have some value after all. <G jeff

Response:

Question:

tripper…yup…it’s the only (and last) fly you’ll ever need to buy…an all purpose southern trout fly for those full days astream, and an apres-fish, around the campfire appetizer for the flyfishing gourmand.

(snipped totally deranged commentary about nucular trout flies – I think) Alright, I think I fell into a trap on this one. But in my defense (such as it is) Sandy Pittendrigh *did* publish a pattern for a Marshmallow Nymph – which is what I thought El Walto was referring to. Little did I realize… /daytripper ("Oh! The humility!")

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – tripper…yup…it’s the only (and last) fly you’ll ever need to buy…an all purpose southern trout fly for those full days astream, and an apres-fish, around the campfire appetizer for the flyfishing gourmand. (snipped totally deranged commentary about nucular trout flies – I think) Alright, I think I fell into a trap on this one. But in my defense (such as it is) Sandy Pittendrigh *did* publish a pattern for a Marshmallow Nymph – which is what I thought El Walto was referring to. Little did I realize… /daytripper ("Oh! The humility!")

On second thought – it wasn’t a seagull shit fly, was it? Peter

Response:

Jeff Miller writes:

(snip for brev) but, oy, the workmanship!

I didn’t know you were Yiddish, my good friend.   (snip for sanity) Would you mind tying (tieing) me a couple of these new miricle flies (flys), Jeffy?  I have the money — will pay you on receipt of the flies. Dave LaCourse

Response:

Would you mind tying (tieing) me a couple of these new miricle flies (flys), Jeffy?  I have the money — will pay you on receipt of the flies.

Wow, I had no idea that Jeff was a Russian monk! — Levi "So long, and thanks for all the fish."

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, lesson time: WTF is a "marshmellow" fly – anyone got a reference site that I can drag that pattern from? /daytripper (Dem suthern fish got strange taste in food, I think…) i have no idea what the hell it was trip. all i know is a big white thing was floating down the river and it was being manipulated by jeffrey. here i was fishing a 16 ehc and he’s catching fish on a marshmellow fly. waldo Jeffie’s fishing pellet flies downstream of the stocking truck again? Peter

ack…the inhumanity of it all!  Mr. Charles, have you no sense of decency?!!  if this is how i’m to be treated on this newsgroup…why…why…, i’ll just have to go some place where i’m appreciated! … um…well…ok, you’re right…there really is no such place, so might as well stay here.  but sir, when we declare war on canada, your truck is the first thing on the list of "must bomb"… jeff

Response:

The last three days have been spent exploring waters with Jeff (&Mark on Sat) solely for the benefit of clavesters. Although I feel we have plenty of waters chosen for all that who attend, it is always good to have a well thought out backup plan. Yesterday afternoon in the rain, Jeff & I brazing the fierce elements, descended into the Watauga gorge to assess the situation. The river was running at about normal, even with the rains. We both tied on boogahs and started some downstream streamer fishing. I caught a couple and then switched to a BHPT just for the sake of variety. I also landed a couple on it. I snipped off the bead head and added a length of 5x and tied on a stimulator. That worked fine also as the fish literally jumped out of the water chasing it as I skittered and danced it across the currents. Being observant, I became aware that Jeff wasn’t anywhere to be seen so I headed upstream. I found him firmly planted in the middle of a double stretch run, gleefully casting to rising fish all around him. I came in at the tail and tossed out the stimulator. They smashed it, but no solid takes. I stepped back and noticed that the trout were rising and sipping gently. I switched to a small Adams parachute and wallah, the hatch was matched, somewhat. Fish after fish took and was brought to hand. I finally observed that they were keying on small bwo’s after I changed to a small yellow comparadun…  no takers on it. Now this may seem a bit too easy for some of you, but it is rare, even in the delayed harvest waters, for the fish to be this active all at once. I attribute the activity to all or most of the conditions being ideal for this. The sky was overcast, heck, it was raining. Bwo’s were hatching all around with an occasional gray stone, sulphur, and hendrickson lifting for variety. The fishermen were in the right place at the right time… no skill or planning… just dumb luck. All in all, a good two hour trip…. I pulled out around six to go home and eat…. Jeff and the band played on…. Walt

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, lesson time: WTF is a "marshmellow" fly – anyone got a reference site that I can drag that pattern from? /daytripper (Dem suthern fish got strange taste in food, I think…) i have no idea what the hell it was trip. all i know is a big white thing was floating down the river and it was being manipulated by jeffrey. here i was fishing a 16 ehc and he’s catching fish on a marshmellow fly. waldo

Jeffie’s fishing pellet flies downstream of the stocking truck again? Peter

Response:

trip… think tan, light bodied ehc…. 14-18. i’ve got some of the yellow doo dads tied fer ya already. Thanks, ol’ pal, for thinking of me. The ehc’s are already tied – wayno sent me a weepie email-o-gram for a bunch ;^) also, size 6 marshmellow. stg, jeffie caught a real nice brown today on one. OK, lesson time: WTF is a "marshmellow" fly – anyone got a reference site that I can drag that pattern from? /daytripper (Dem suthern fish got strange taste in food, I think…)

tripper…yup…it’s the only (and last) fly you’ll ever need to buy…an all purpose southern trout fly for those full days astream, and an apres-fish, around the campfire appetizer for the flyfishing gourmand. waldo’s just jealous cause he can’t get one and doesn’t have the facilities for producing it…only a few are produced in a small Russian village near Chernobyl, hence its name – Chernobyl Caddis Rasputin Adams Parachute (C-CRAP)… think of a mutant cross between a parachute adams, an elk hair caddis, and a wooly bugger with flash, irradiated in a secret process that swells (marshmellows)the material into a buoyant mass, and tied only on moonless nights by Russian monks.   the cost of the fly is a mere $1,500…but, oy, the workmanship!  each fly comes with a lifetime guarantee, handling instructions, and a complimentary pair of lead-coated waders. It’s the only fly in your box that’s sure to last longer than you.   the small neon dropper attachment that flashes "bite me" is a few quid extra, but enhances the night-time presentation. mouse patterns have been rendered obsolete for the die-hard midnight trout stalker…plus, this fly will light the way to your favorite tree species (for those of you seeking the pleasures of the forest). …send me a few thousand bucks and i’ll order you a couple…the exchange rate for kopeks and rubles is quite good now… jeff (a friend to the deprived and depraved)

Response:

Walt enjoyed your fish report, looking forward to seeing your act live.  On my mountain adventure  last week I stopped at South Mountain Park on Thursday P.M and hit the stocked portion above horse camping.  Thought I was in heaven and all my reading was paying off. A 8 to 11 inch stocker on every third cast. In about thirty minutes it stopped, think the fish have developed a feeding schedule  at the hatchery, as I was only able to dig out three in another two hours of beating the water.  My presentation  needs refinement but it wasn"t because of fly choice, I went through the box., need some  casting help also.   But I did work on my sea legs and for the first time out this season  , happy to say I only wene down once.  Friday early I climbed over the falls to be first one through wild trout water { a la Pamlico Jim } but top feeding was slow  so I moved on to Robinsville.  ?Glads to report the 4 lane highway to Toosie’s is still under construction, looks like it extended two blocks in last six months.  Saturday and Sunday fished Snowbird, Santerhilla, and Nangahala  thru cloudy showers and had some fish on drys and nymphs. Have still not caught o streamers or a wooly booger, but will read some more.    Do not recommend that Indians camp alone. I had enough pre mixed manhattens for five nights but used them all up, plus some Jack D. sitting around lonely   camp fire first night.   compssing some interllegical poetry .{ What is doggerel ]     could NOT FIT MY roff FISHING CAP ONTO HEAD NEXT MORNING.          iF YOU HAVE ACCESS TO FOAM BODY YELLOW HUMPISE # 14 please bring me a dozen to clave, they seem to flat higher and longer in fast stream          Indian Joe*

Response:

The last three days have been spent exploring waters with Jeff (&Mark on Sat) solely for the benefit of clavesters.

Many thanks for that supreme sacrifice, Walt. It’s rotten job and we appreciate you doing it ;^) Now, what size flies should we be tying? Stimulators are a PITA to tie so I’d like to concentrate of the *good* sizes. /daytripper

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Walt enjoyed your fish report, looking forward to seeing your act live.  On my mountain adventure  last week I stopped at South Mountain Park on Thursday P.M and hit the stocked portion above horse camping.  Thought I was in heaven and all my reading was paying off. A 8 to 11 inch stocker on every third cast. In about thirty minutes it stopped, think the fish have developed a feeding schedule  at the hatchery, as I was only able to dig out three in another two hours of beating the water.  My presentation  needs refinement but it wasn"t because of fly choice, I went through the box., need some  casting help also.   But I did work on my sea legs and for the first time out this season  , happy to say I only wene down once.  Friday early I climbed over the falls to be first one through wild trout water { a la Pamlico Jim } but top feeding was slow  so I moved on to Robinsville.  ?Glads to report the 4 lane highway to Toosie’s is still under construction, looks like it extended two blocks in last six months.  Saturday and Sunday fished Snowbird, Santerhilla, and Nangahala  thru cloudy showers and had some fish on drys and nymphs. Have still not caught o streamers or a wooly booger, but will read some more.    Do not recommend that Indians camp alone. I had enough pre mixed manhattens for five nights but used them all up, plus some Jack D. sitting around lonely   camp fire first night.   compssing some interllegical poetry .{ What is doggerel ]     could NOT FIT MY roff FISHING CAP ONTO HEAD NEXT MORNING.          iF YOU HAVE ACCESS TO FOAM BODY YELLOW HUMPISE # 14 please bring me a dozen to clave, they seem to flat higher and longer in fast stream          Indian Joe*

i’ll personally tie ya up some joe…. just don’t let me give ya ken’s by mistake waldo — Walter G. Winter Ezflyfish.com:  http://www.ezflyfish.com Blue Ridge Book Gallery: http://www.crosswinds.net/~brbg/books/brbg-2.html

Response:

The last three days have been spent exploring waters with Jeff (&Mark on Sat) solely for the benefit of clavesters. Many thanks for that supreme sacrifice, Walt. It’s rotten job and we appreciate you doing it ;^) Now, what size flies should we be tying? Stimulators are a PITA to tie so I’d like to concentrate of the *good* sizes. /daytripper

trip… think tan, light bodied ehc…. 14-18. i’ve got some of the yellow doo dads tied fer ya already. also, size 6 marshmellow. stg, jeffie caught a real nice brown today on one. waldo — Walter G. Winter Ezflyfish.com:  http://www.ezflyfish.com Blue Ridge Book Gallery: http://www.crosswinds.net/~brbg/books/brbg-2.html

Response:

trip… think tan, light bodied ehc…. 14-18. i’ve got some of the yellow doo dads tied fer ya already.

Thanks, ol’ pal, for thinking of me. The ehc’s are already tied – wayno sent me a weepie email-o-gram for a bunch ;^) also, size 6 marshmellow. stg, jeffie caught a real nice brown today on one.

OK, lesson time: WTF is a "marshmellow" fly – anyone got a reference site that I can drag that pattern from? /daytripper (Dem suthern fish got strange taste in food, I think…)

Response:

I think…) How do you piss off a trout fishermen? Tell him trout will eat anything catfish eat. Big Dale

Response:

OK, lesson time: WTF is a "marshmellow" fly – anyone got a reference site that I can drag that pattern from? /daytripper (Dem suthern fish got strange taste in food, I think…)

i have no idea what the hell it was trip. all i know is a big white thing was floating down the river and it was being manipulated by jeffrey. here i was fishing a 16 ehc and he’s catching fish on a marshmellow fly. waldo

Response:

Now this may seem a bit too easy for some of you, but it is rare, even in the delayed harvest waters, for the fish to be this active all at once. I attribute the activity to all or most of the conditions being ideal for this. The sky was overcast, heck, it was raining. Bwo’s were hatching all around with an occasional gray stone, sulphur, and hendrickson lifting for variety. The fishermen were in the right place at the right time… no skill or planning… just dumb luck. All in all, a good two hour trip…. I pulled out around six to go home and eat…. Jeff and the band played on….

Sounds like a fun trip. In my experience, the frequency that fish become active all at once depends on the fertility of the stream. On very fertile streams this is often a daily experience and during certain times of the year this happen several times a day. These fish are often selective. When they are intent on their feeding, they often lose some of their caution and are less spooky than normal. On relatively infertile waters, hatches dense enough to turn on the fish are pretty rare. The plus part of this for us fishermen is that the fish in these streams are not usually very fussy about what pattern is used. Since they don’t get distracted by the hatches, they tend to be spooky pretty much all the time. Different kinds of fishing, both alot of fun. Willi

Response:

Question:

This would imply to me that regulations that were not readily enforceable, would still be followed by the majority of anglers. I would personally like to see "regulations" of this type used to reduce over crowding.

Yep. As long as the "regulations" don’t get too onerous, I think most flyfishers would follow them on an honor system. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’ve been fishing for forty five years. During my childhood and teens, I fished throughout the Midwest and Canada.  For the last 25 years, I’ve lived in Colorado and have fished most of the Rocky Mt.. area. I’ve only been asked to show my fishing license twice in my whole live. I’ve never had an officer ask to see what fish I had kept or see if my fly was barbless in barbless water or ……. Either I’m the luckiest guy in the world or there are extremely few DOW officers around that are enforcing regulations. On the other hand, I’ve only seen a few people fishing or keeping fish in violation of regulations. It seems that our regulations are personally enforced or enforced by the presence of other anglers. My experience is that the vast majority of anglers follow regulations even without the threat of enforcement from the legal system. This would imply to me that regulations that were not readily enforceable, would still be followed by the majority of anglers. I would personally like to see "regulations" of this type used to reduce over crowding.

I’ll concur.  In approx 26 years of fishing I’ve only been checked twice.  Actually, come to think of it, I need to take out some of those years since I was too young to need a license (sheesh, drops that number to 13 years).  Anyway, neither here nor there.  Personally I’ve seen a LOT of anglers who don’t follow regulations, but it’s almost exclusively been on the put-n-take waters and sorry to say it, but it’s almost always been those fishing with bait and filling freezers. I think unenforceable regulations are followed in direct proportion to how much people believe in the rationale behind the regulation and the chances of them getting caught.  Don’t see this being of much use for overcrowding. Just throwing something out here, but has anyone thought about maybe making multiple access points to popular waters?  I’ve never fished ANY moving water where I’ve felt even remotely crowded so I’m just guessing here.  Is there limited access?  Just me, but I can’t see why anyone would purposely fish as close together as some of you seem to imply. Just curious,      - Ken — ET1 – Evil Twin #1 "Guilt replaced the fun" – ROFF-Tim "Ethical conduct is purely a personal thing, and the only  arbiter of personal ethics is your own conscience."  - Mike Connor

Response:

  I would tend to believe that most _fishermen_ would follow the rules. This would imply to me that regulations that were not readily enforceable, would still be followed by the majority of anglers. I would personally like to see "regulations" of this type used to reduce over crowding. Yep. As long as the "regulations" don’t get too onerous, I think most flyfishers would follow them on an honor system.

Harry Mason www.Troutflies.com

Response:

This would imply to me that regulations that were not readily enforceable, would still be followed by the majority of anglers. I would personally like to see "regulations" of this type used to reduce over crowding. Yep. As long as the "regulations" don’t get too onerous, I think most flyfishers would follow them on an honor system.

Well, what’s so onerous about "use some common sense, please?"  You’re too trusting, I fear.  The true sportspersons will act properly, and don’t need laws/regs, but mere suggestions and education, but the bozos will act like bozos, and the laws/regs are needed to keep them from destroying everything, even if through sheer ignorance rather than maliciousness or greed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

While completely nekkid, William Loehman/Susan Schwarz Either I’m the luckiest guy in the world or there are extremely few DOW officers around that are enforcing regulations.

It’s probably the latter. The DOW’s enforcement people are called District Wildlife Managers. Technically, they’re peace officers[1] and are required to be certified as same, but they typically spend less than 30% of their rime on law enforcement. The other 70%-plus is spent on other wildlife management tasks. [1] Under the criminal code, they’re Peace Officers, Level II. That’s the same level as agents of other regulatory agencies like Gaming, Alcohol, Parole, Corrections, etc. That means that they’re not allowed to carry concealed weapons when they’re not on duty. "They conferred, as against the Government, the right to be let alone — the most comprehensive of rights…" -Justice Louis Brandeis

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – District Wildlife Managers. Technically, they’re peace officers[1] and are required to be certified as same, but they typically spend less than 30% of their rime on law enforcement. The other 70%-plus is spent on other wildlife management tasks. [1] Under the criminal code, they’re Peace Officers, Level II. That’s the same level as agents of other regulatory agencies like Gaming, Alcohol, Parole, Corrections, etc. That means that they’re not allowed to carry concealed weapons when they’re not on duty. "They conferred, as against the Government, the right to be let alone — the most comprehensive of rights…" -Justice Louis Brandeis

You must live in a strange part of Texas…Maybe we should have not given so much of the state away. Around here they are called game wardens and even the Texas Rangers are jealous of the power of a game warden. There is not a law enforcement officer in the state with more power. Unfortunately, very few game theives spend many years in prison even when caught. Their fines are seldom over the cost of a house, and few even have their pickups consficated as they should be. Big Dale – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

You must live in a strange part of Texas…

I’m not in any part of Texas.  I couldn’t have been that bad in my previous life. Maybe we should have not given so much of the state away. Around here they are called game wardens and even the Texas Rangers are jealous of the power of a game warden. There is not a law enforcement officer in the state with more power.

They’ve got a fair bit of power here. More than I’ve got, and I’m a real live Peace Officer, Level I just like the city cops and CSP and CBI. The only difference is that I make less, can’t enter private property without PC, warrant, or exigency, and I get to wear my gun home at night if I feel like it. Unfortunately, very few game theives spend many years in prison even when caught. Their fines are seldom over the cost of a house, and few even have their pickups consficated as they should be.

It gets worse. There was a waterfowl-poaching case that the USFWS took a few years ago. The plea agreement was for forfeiture of all firearms and vehicles used, plus five digits in fines and a few months in prison. Even the defense bought it. Then the judge knocked the fines down to three digits, wiped out half of the forfeitures, and suspended the sentence. It’s good to know that damage to our common resources is taken seriously by the Federal district judges. (This was a judge in TX, but I’m not sure which district, etc.) "They conferred, as against the Government, the right to be let alone — the most comprehensive of rights…" -Justice Louis Brandeis

Response:

–                                                       -dnc- ET1 wrote …  Personally I’ve seen a LOT of anglers who don’t follow regulations, but it’s almost exclusively been on the put-n-take waters and sorry to say it, but it’s almost always been those fishing with bait and filling freezers.

That’s consistent with what I’ve seen over the years too.  Most poaching I’ve witnessed was in areas where people already had the legal right to take a hefty number of fish. Hmmm.  I wonder how the poached dead fish statistics compare to number of released fish killed? I think unenforceable regulations are followed in direct proportion to how much people believe in the rationale behind the regulation and the chances of them getting caught.  Don’t see this being of much use for overcrowding. Just throwing something out here, but has anyone thought about maybe making multiple access points to popular waters?  I’ve never fished ANY moving water where I’ve felt even remotely crowded so I’m just guessing here.  Is there limited access?  Just me, but I can’t see why anyone would purposely fish as close together as some of you seem to imply.

I don’t like the idea of increasing access.  While I think all public lands should be open to everyone, remoteness still has a value in protecting some resources from overuse.

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and vehicles used, plus five digits in fines and a few months in prison. Even the defense bought it. Then the judge knocked the fines down to three digits, wiped out half of the forfeitures, and suspended the sentence.

Sounds like the plea agreement was on the right track, except I think there must have been a typo as it came out a few months in prison when it should have been a few years. Then the judge went and screwed it up. Big Dale

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Just throwing something out here, but has anyone thought about maybe making multiple access points to popular waters?  I’ve never fished ANY moving water where I’ve felt even remotely crowded so I’m just guessing here.  Is there limited access?  Just me, but I can’t see why anyone would purposely fish as close together as some of you seem to imply. I don’t like the idea of increasing access.  While I think all public lands should be open to everyone, remoteness still has a value in protecting some resources from overuse.

I’m mostly just curious.  I’ve never fished moving water where I felt crowded.  If there are more people fishing than I felt comfortable with, I just start walking.  Just for my own understanding I’d like to know why the horror stories exist.  If some people don’t mind fishing in a crowd that’s fine by me, but I’ve never had trouble finding a remote spot within a reasonable walking distance. Later,      - Ken — ET1 – Evil Twin #1 "Guilt replaced the fun" – ROFF-Tim "Ethical conduct is purely a personal thing, and the only  arbiter of personal ethics is your own conscience."  - Mike Connor

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I’m mostly just curious.  I’ve never fished moving water where I felt crowded.  If there are more people fishing than I felt comfortable with, I just start walking.  Just for my own understanding I’d like to know why the horror stories exist.  If some people don’t mind fishing in a crowd that’s fine by me, but I’ve never had trouble finding a remote spot within a reasonable walking distance.

Here in Wisconsin there are very few places left more than a mile from the nearest road.  The vast majority of the land here is considerably less.  Each fishing season northern Illinois (which includes Chicago for the geographically challenged) and eastern Minnesota (Minneapolis, St Paul) disgorge their teeming millions upon our fair waters.. Lots of other folks come from all over the place.    I dare say there are few places in America that get pounded as hard as our fair state.  Naturally, this results in some very crowded conditions in some places.  But despite all this, I have never had any trouble finding a place to fish in solitude when I wanted to.  I think the trouble some people have with this one Ken is that they haven’t mastered the rules for finding out of the way spots, and so: 1.  Find out where everybody goes. 2.  Go someplace else.                                      

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Let’s look at it another way.. is there anything inherently wrong with unenforceable regulations?

Inherently wrong? Of course there is. If there is not a reasonable degree of enforcement the laws will be ignored. You are talking about a law that would require an observer (or team of observers) to watch you fish all day and count your catch, as opposed to a policeman seeing you run a stop sign. — Charlie…

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George Adams wrote Count me among those who are likely to puke if one more unenforcable, or unenforced, law is passed.

I propose an law whereby it’s illegal to puke. <g —                                                       -dnc-

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I do agree that most people do behave responsibly.. but for those who want to be responsible C&R’ers, what do they have to go on?  Shouldn’t there be some guidelines at least?

I don’t have a problem with published guidelines, but passing laws that you know can’t be enforced simply to establish those guidelines is worse than just wrong. — Charlie…

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Let’s look at it another way.. is there anything inherently wrong with unenforceable regulations? One parallel is traffic laws.. so why do traffic laws work?  The potential of catching stop sign runners is so extremely low, but most people stop.  So then.. is it the threat of enforcement, or is it because we all realize it would be chaos if we didn’t follow the rules? I’ve said this before, but aside from the most popular fishing spots, take limits are also pretty unenforceable.  There are just too few fish & game officers to make the threat of being caught real.  Yet, it seems most people do follow the rules. Take limits are enforceable regulations, he is talking about implementing unenforceable ones. — Charlie…

– Particle Salad/ Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad mp3 songs: http://www.mp3.com/particlesalad

Response:

I do agree that most people do behave responsibly.. but for those who want to be responsible C&R’ers, what do they have to go on?  Shouldn’t there be some guidelines at least? -Mark But I think we’ve already shown that we cannot be trusted to self-police. That’s why we need take limits. Who is this we and where have you shown yourselves to be irresponsible with respect to fishing? BTW, count me among the people who believe that regulations do not need to be enforceable to be respected by the majority. The majority who don’t behave responsibly unless they are told to? — Charlie…

– Particle Salad/ Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad mp3 songs: http://www.mp3.com/particlesalad

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I was fishing a week ago and was checked twice.  When the fist warden came through, he checked my licence out and we talked for a minute or two about the area and what DNR is doing.  He then walked over to where two other fisherman were fishing about 50-60 yards away.  It didn’t take much time for the warden to pull out his pad and start writing something on a piece of paper.  The warden handed the paper to the two fisherman and then the fisherman left.  These two fisherman were sitting there the entire time that the warden and I were talking and could have easily seen the game warden and left, but they didn’t.  I don’t know what makes some people so stupid. A third group of people moved in fairly close to where I was throwing the fly.  In fact, they were too close for my liking.  I was just about ready walkaway when the  second game warden came through.  The warden checked out my licence and we had a short talk about the area.  He then went to the other group of people.  I was close enough to hear the warden ask for their licence and then tell them, "you need a licence to fish."  Obviously, they didn’t have a licence.  The warden gave them a warning and walked away.  He didn’t even ask them to stop fishing. When I walked back to my car at the end of the day, passing the original spot, these fisherman were still fishing.  It was hard for me to understand why the warden wouldn’t make these creeps stop fishing. Earlier in the year, I saw a group of people collecting, I will not say fishing, fish with a cast net. They had several buckets with about 40 fish in them.  I was so upset, I went to a park ranger and they did nothing.  This was a put-and-take area.  I then called the DNR and they set out to check on the poachers.  The poachers were gone when they arrived.  DNR told me that they could nothing unless the offenders could be caught.  They also told me that the park ranger should have stopped and cited the poachers.  They also told me that this problem with the park rangers in not uncommon in this area.  The park rangers want to concentrate on people management not wildlife management.  I’m still upset about that situation. — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html Before you buy.

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The majority who don’t behave responsibly unless they are told to? — Charlie… I personally have no idea what an appropriate take limit should be for specific fish in a specific area.  I don’t think that the average fisherman does either.  I need to know what the limit is in order to behave responsibly.  Making it a law gives the authorities a means of punishing those that are grossly irresponsible.

Take limits are enforceable regulations, he is talking about implementing unenforceable ones. — Charlie…

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 ……. Either I’m the luckiest guy in the world or there are extremely few DOW officers around that are enforcing regulations.

I have only been checked once in my (considerably shorter) life, but I think that it is safe to say that it is cheaper to fish without a license all the time and pay the fines when you get checked than to buy a license every year. The time I got checked I was following all fishing regulations, but I had to hide my beer in a hurry, since I was only 16 at the time. — Levi Life is anything that dies when you stomp on it.                                                         — Dave Barry

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The majority who don’t behave responsibly unless they are told to? — Charlie…

I personally have no idea what an appropriate take limit should be for specific fish in a specific area.  I don’t think that the average fisherman does either.  I need to know what the limit is in order to behave responsibly.  Making it a law gives the authorities a means of punishing those that are grossly irresponsible. — Levi Life is anything that dies when you stomp on it.                                                         — Dave Barry

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BTW, count me among the people who believe that regulations do not need to be enforceable to be respected by the majority.

Count me among those who are likely to puke if one more unenforcable, or unenforced, law is passed. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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But I think we’ve already shown that we cannot be trusted to self-police. That’s why we need take limits.

Who is this we and where have you shown yourselves to be irresponsible with respect to fishing? BTW, count me among the people who believe that regulations do not need to be enforceable to be respected by the majority.

The majority who don’t behave responsibly unless they are told to? — Charlie…

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But I think we’ve already shown that we cannot be trusted to self-police. That’s why we need take limits. BTW, count me among the people who believe that regulations do not need to be enforceable to be respected by the majority. Well, what’s so onerous about "use some common sense, please?"  You’re too trusting, I fear.  The true sportspersons will act properly, and don’t need laws/regs, but mere suggestions and education, but the bozos will act like bozos, and the laws/regs are needed to keep them from destroying everything, even if through sheer ignorance rather than maliciousness or greed. —

–  Particle Salad/ Noom Room Studio  http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad  mp3 songs:  http://www.mp3.com/particlesalad

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Naturally, this results in some very crowded conditions in some places.  But despite all this, I have never had any trouble finding a place to fish in solitude when I wanted to.  I think the trouble some people have with this one Ken is that they haven’t mastered the rules for finding out of the way spots, and so: 1.  Find out where everybody goes. 2.  Go someplace else.                                      

That’s not the problem I have with over crowding. Especially on streams and rivers, I just think that the extreme over crowding that happens in our "famous" waters, is very disrespectful and harmful to the resource and shouldn’t be allowed. I’m no different than you. I find places that others don’t fish. I fished for Wisconsin stream trout for the first time last Fall and found a place where I didn’t come across any other anglers in full day of fishing. Very nice! Willi

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I’ve been fishing for forty five years. During my childhood and teens, I fished throughout the Midwest and Canada.  For the last 25 years, I’ve lived in Colorado and have fished most of the Rocky Mt.. area. I’ve only been asked to show my fishing license twice in my whole live. I’ve never had an officer ask to see what fish I had kept or see if my fly was barbless in barbless water or ……. Either I’m the luckiest guy in the world or there are extremely few DOW officers around that are enforcing regulations. On the other hand, I’ve only seen a few people fishing or keeping fish in violation of regulations. It seems that our regulations are personally enforced or enforced by the presence of other anglers. My experience is that the vast majority of anglers follow regulations even without the threat of enforcement from the legal system. This would imply to me that regulations that were not readily enforceable, would still be followed by the majority of anglers. I would personally like to see "regulations" of this type used to reduce over crowding. Willi

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Question:

Yesterday my 8 year old daughter(future stasher),lover of XS asked me, while looking at my stash "Mom, When you die, what are you going to leave me?"LOL Laura

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Yesterday my 8 year old daughter(future stasher),lover of XS asked me, while looking at my stash "Mom, When you die, what are you going to leave me?"LOL

My 5-year-old daughter has been using that line, but not so tactfully, lately: "can I have that cup when you’re dead?"  "I can sit in your stitching chair when you’re dead," etc.  I realize this is all an entirely normal developmental stage (separation, beginnings of realization of death, yadda, yadda), but it sure makes a mom’s heart twinge. Joy in PA current projects — "Angel with Lambs" Stoney Creek, "Summer Afternoon" Betsy Stinner, "Flamin’ Chili Peppers Heart" Sweetheart Tree, Bibs for an abuse shelter (e-mail me for more info on how to help)

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I’m LOL too, Laura.  Seriously, I think it is marvelous that she has the potential to be such a world class stashaholic.  One of my daughters loves to stitch, the other just loves to get stitched presents.  I do think we need to infect them at a young age. Congrats, Brynn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yesterday my 8 year old daughter(future stasher),lover of XS asked me, while looking at my stash "Mom, When you die, what are you going to leave me?"LOL Laura

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I solved my 8 year olds problem, by starting up her own stash. She now has a stamped XS (one of my UFO’s) of a bear and last night I took her to A.C.Moore to buy her her own Counted XS of Elmo. She sat on the couch last night & told DH that "she was not going to bed,she had XS to do!" And then went on explaining that she could do hers faster than he could do his. They are both beginners. I’m going to stitch myself my own little padded room for when I get done teaching these 2 hardheads how to stitch.:) Amanda (8 yr old) has a birthday at the end of August. I would like to get her small xs’s in round frames and can’t find them anywhere unless I purchase Christmas any help would be appreciated with this. Laura

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i sent my girls (7-year-old twins) to stitching class at the lns (the counting bee).  since the class was at the end of june, the design was a 4th of july fire cracker designed and taught by debbie from holly house designs. they used perle cotton on 6-count.  they *loved* it. since that class we have been looking for small kits/designs that don’t have many color changes. my son found some kits at the local drug store — the girls need to go with me to pick.  these kits are designed specifically for children  – they are really cute and small, some are stamped and some are counted, each comes with a little round frame for when the piece is completed.  the counted pieces were a dog, smiley face, yin yang(sp?) and a couple more that i can’t remember.  stamped pieces were a globe (the earth), a whale and some others.  i will be at the store this week and will be picking up a couple — if anyone wants the company name email and i’ll let you know! btw, my son decided the fire cracker was pretty cool and we bought a kit of the project for him.  he finished his is two days, molly finished hers the next day…the third is mia.  then, we bought some xs books for magnets and small stuff, some 11 count aida and they are really enjoying it! this is the first time that my children have been in a traditional school. at our old house the school was year round, having 2 1/2 months off is really, really long.  i’m signing them up for every class i can get them to take — next week my son will be learning how to fly fish and tie the flies.  then comes knitting class. jan

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This weekend my 5-1/2 yr old DSD came in and asked me to help her get started on a needlepoint project, so we picked colors from my stash and I cut some canvas for her and told her to go to it.   She started to do a heart because she says "hearts make me smile on rainy days", and the two of us proceeded to work on our projects and watch My Fair Lady – (it was slightly over her head but not unacceptable for her to watch – no bad language no sex etc.) We talked about how much we enjoy spending time like this together and she told me mommy doesn’t ever spend time alone with her (OK this is tricky)  I tried to explain to her that it must be very hard for her taking care of three children by herself to have time for each one.  She said "no, Mommy just talks on the phone to her friends all the time"  Chris confirmed that when they were married she never had any time for him either that her personality is such that she has to constantly be in a social situation – can’t spend "downtime" (which contributed to why they’re divorced) Anyway, her heart is almost finished then she’s going to do the sky, grass and moon.  She asked me if she could keep the colors she’s using – she’s already working on her stash… Bonnie (Bon-Bon)

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We talked about how much we enjoy spending time like this together

I have always said mother, father, sister, brother, son, and daughter were functions not genetics.  You have given her a lifetime gift not only of needlework.

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Question:

I am interested in beginnging to use shooting head lines as it seems they would give me a great deal more versatility without having to buy multiple additional spools to hold different types of lines. Can anyone give me a good source for this type of line or is it as I suspect from not seeing them advertised much that I need to build them myself. If this is the case, can you point me in the right direction to learn how to build them? Thanks in advance.

Response:

I am interested in beginnging to use shooting head lines as it seems they would give me a great deal more versatility without having to buy multiple additional spools to hold different types of lines. Can anyone give me a good source for this type of line or is it as I suspect from not seeing them advertised much that I need to build them myself. If this is the case, can you point me in the right direction to learn how to build them? Thanks in advance.

Malcolm, Shooting heads are great for some applications where you want long distance casts to be performed easily. They are less adequate for other applications where you want for instance line control (mending long lines). Meaning shooting heads are mostly used for stillwater and saltwater where distance is essential. To get the most of your outfit, using a stripping basket helps managing the loose line, but takes some time to learn using. I guess you will use it for overhead casting with a single handed rod (shooting heads and two handed rods is something quite different). You can build your shooting heads out of a DT line. If you have, say, a #6-7 rod, the optimum is likely to be about 11 meters shooting head #7. The important thing is to load the rod with the optimum *weight*. It means you will need perhaps more, perhaps less than those 11 meters, depending on the actual weight of the line (there are tolerances in the manufacturing) and the actual rod class. Some people use a higher line class, shortening the head to perhaps 9 meters which gives even longer casts but sacrificing line control even more. Running line: Buy the best running line you can afford (cheap in comparison to WF line). There are 3 basic kind of running lines. -Dacron with a coating similar to floating lines. Actually a level floating line. Nicest to hold. -Braided nylon. Compromise. -Flat monofil. Longer casts, won’t tangle but not so nice to hold. DO NOT use regular monofil! It will tangle. Splice a loop on the end of the runninging line. Fill the reel with as much as you expect to be able to cast. 20 meters running line will do it. 30 meters if you are a very skilled caster. Shooting head: You don’t have to buy the best DT line available, as much of the casting performance is due to the running line properties. To find out the optimum weight for your rod, some testing is needed. 1. Cut the DT into two. Gives you two shooting heads, one spare or as a gift to a friend. 2. Attach the running line and the shooting head temporarily, e.g. with loop connectors. 3. Try the outfit in the backyard or on a lawn. Cut down the shooting head gradually until you get optimum performance. (When casting a shooting head, you don’t really shoot line as with a WF, instead you only have the shooting head and a few inches of shooting line outside the rod tip when letting the line go. 4. When you have found out the optimum weight, splice a loop on the shooting head. 5. Go fishing and check it works OK in practical situations. 6. Use a scale to determine the exact weight of the shooting head, this is useful information when you design your next shooting head (for the same rod). NOTE: Make sure the loops that connect the running line and shooting head run smooth trough the rod guides! The smoothest connection is to sew the lines together, in which case you either need one spool per line or to make the loop connection at the backing. NOTE: To gain distance and be able to turn over larger flies, you may consider shortening the tip of the shooting head. The price is sacrificing presentation, but for windy conditions, this is worth considering. Contact me if you need more info. Good Luck Tord

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I am interested in beginnging to use shooting head lines as it seems they would give me a great deal more versatility without having to buy multiple additional spools to hold different types of lines. Can anyone give me a good source for this type of line or is it as I suspect from not seeing them advertised much that I need to build them myself. If this is the case, can you point me in the right direction to learn how to build them? Thanks in advance.

Scientific Anglers used to ( and likely still do) make a selection of shooting heads that should meet your needs. Buying the heads will be cheaper than making your own. If you are looking for versatility try these trick. Cut the front 10 feet off a WF floating line. Serve a braided mono loop in the end of line. Use 5 to 10 foot sections of sinking line of varying sink rates that match the weight of the main line. Serve loops into the ends of these. Do the same with the floating section removed from the line so you can also switch back to a floating tip. You’ve now got a mutliple tip line that allows quick changes of sink rate. It won’t cast as far as a ST line but you didn’t indcate that was the problem. I’ve been using one of these ‘exchangable’ sink tips lately and am pleased with the casting performance. Some fly shops will set the line up for you and provide a selection of sink tips. Make some enquiries. Ralph H

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I think this guy really did all his home work. Very interesting and accurate info. Thanks for sharing this with all on the group.

….and "thank you" from me, also!  Very helpful info. Wayne — Gallery W http://www.magiccarpet.com/~waynem/G_Over.html

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip (When casting a shooting head, you don’t really shoot line as with a WF, instead you only have the shooting head and a few inches of shooting line outside the rod tip when letting the line go. <snip It’s interesting how things can go full circle.  I’ve seen advertisements in the non-Fly Fishing world for short, 2-3 feet lengths of "weighted casting line" (read  Shooting Head)  which allow spin fishermen to "cast" flies.  When you think of it, a spool would beat the heck out of a stripping basket for holding "running" line. Just some thoughts. Rick

I guess the "weighted casting line" must have a pretty high density. Must be lead core to have 2-3 feet heavy enough to be cast with a spinning rod… Your suggestion using a spool would imply a pretty large reel, since the shooting head (some 11 meters long) must fit too on the spool. Still, you need to learn to cast a fly line, although this is theoretically feasible with a large capacity spinning reel attached to your fly rod. (I guess you are not thinking about using a casting reel for this purpose…). The point in using a stripping basket is managing 20 meters or more of running line while wading in non-calm water (breaking waves, current) that will drag the line or tangle it. Or, fishing from a boat, to avoid the line tangling in the numerous items that usually are found on deck. Or to prevent the line from getting caught by strong winds… /Tord

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<snip (When casting a shooting head, you don’t really shoot line as with a WF, instead you only have the shooting head and a few inches of shooting line outside the rod tip when letting the line go.

<snip It’s interesting how things can go full circle.  I’ve seen advertisements in the non-Fly Fishing world for short, 2-3 feet lengths of "weighted casting line" (read  Shooting Head)  which allow spin fishermen to "cast" flies.  When you think of it, a spool would beat the heck out of a stripping basket for holding "running" line. Just some thoughts. Rick

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am interested in beginnging to use shooting head lines as it seems they would give me a great deal more versatility without having to buy multiple additional spools to hold different types of lines. Can anyone give me a good source for this type of line or is it as I suspect from not seeing them advertised much that I need to build them myself. If this is the case, can you point me in the right direction to learn how to build them? Thanks in advance. Malcolm, Shooting heads are great for some applications where you want long distance casts to be performed easily. They are less adequate for other applications where you want for instance line control (mending long lines). Meaning shooting heads are mostly used for stillwater and saltwater where distance is essential. To get the most of your outfit, using a stripping basket helps managing the loose line, but takes some time to learn using. I guess you will use it for overhead casting with a single handed rod (shooting heads and two handed rods is something quite different). You can build your shooting heads out of a DT line. If you have, say, a #6-7 rod, the optimum is likely to be about 11 meters shooting head #7. The important thing is to load the rod with the optimum *weight*. It means you will need perhaps more, perhaps less than those 11 meters, depending on the actual weight of the line (there are tolerances in the manufacturing) and the actual rod class. Some people use a higher line class, shortening the head to perhaps 9 meters which gives even longer casts but sacrificing line control even more. Running line: Buy the best running line you can afford (cheap in comparison to WF line). There are 3 basic kind of running lines. -Dacron with a coating similar to floating lines. Actually a level floating line. Nicest to hold. -Braided nylon. Compromise. -Flat monofil. Longer casts, won’t tangle but not so nice to hold. DO NOT use regular monofil! It will tangle. Splice a loop on the end of the runninging line. Fill the reel with as much as you expect to be able to cast. 20 meters running line will do it. 30 meters if you are a very skilled caster. Shooting head: You don’t have to buy the best DT line available, as much of the casting performance is due to the running line properties. To find out the optimum weight for your rod, some testing is needed. 1. Cut the DT into two. Gives you two shooting heads, one spare or as a gift to a friend. 2. Attach the running line and the shooting head temporarily, e.g. with loop connectors. 3. Try the outfit in the backyard or on a lawn. Cut down the shooting head gradually until you get optimum performance. (When casting a shooting head, you don’t really shoot line as with a WF, instead you only have the shooting head and a few inches of shooting line outside the rod tip when letting the line go. 4. When you have found out the optimum weight, splice a loop on the shooting head. 5. Go fishing and check it works OK in practical situations. 6. Use a scale to determine the exact weight of the shooting head, this is useful information when you design your next shooting head (for the same rod). NOTE: Make sure the loops that connect the running line and shooting head run smooth trough the rod guides! The smoothest connection is to sew the lines together, in which case you either need one spool per line or to make the loop connection at the backing. NOTE: To gain distance and be able to turn over larger flies, you may consider shortening the tip of the shooting head. The price is sacrificing presentation, but for windy conditions, this is worth considering. Contact me if you need more info. Good Luck Tord

I think this guy really did all his home work. Very interesting and accurate info. Thanks for sharing this with all on the group. It sounds like you are somewhere in Europe? I agree that shooting heads are great in the right situation, but not all the time. I’m saving this one. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

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Question:

Would appreciate advice on anyone who has used Orvis’ ‘Sure-Step Bootfoot Waders. ‘  These are waders with a wading boot attached to a stocking foot wader…sounds good in theory, but are they any good? thanks…

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I have them and like them for any cold water fishing.

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Would appreciate advice on anyone who has used Orvis’ ‘Sure-Step Bootfoot Waders. ‘  These are waders with a wading boot attached to a stocking foot wader…sounds good in theory, but are they any good? thanks…

If you really must have bootfoot waders, I think these are the best choice.  Usually the biggest advantage to bootfoot waders is the ability to get them on and off easily.  The disadvantage is that they are not much good for athletic wading over rocky surfaces.  Normal bootfoot waders offer no support.  Stocking foot waders allow you to get a wader that fits and then put on a boot that fits and gives support.  Using this system is time consuming but gives you great mobility in the water.  The Sure-Step boot foot neoprene wader falls in between the two – much better than normal boot foot waders but not as good as the stocking foot with seperate boots option.   The boot foot on the Sure Step waders has laces on the outside of the outer boot (the boot is stiffer than is normally found on boot foot waders).  This allows you to adjust the fit of the boot to actually get some support in the foot and allow you greater mobility and confidence in your wading without taking the time and expense to get both waders and boots.  I use them for surf fishing in Northern CA because I get sand in between the boots and the stocking foot of my "normal" waders.  I’ve used them on rocky jetty’s and they work pretty well, but if I was only going to fish off the jettys or rocks I’d prefer my stockng foot waders with a seperate boot with studs.  So it depends on the conditions under which you fish. Sandy, gravel, or pebble bottoms don’t challenge these boot foot waders at all and they are a good choice for such conditions.  On a scale of 1 to 10 (from easy wading to impossible wading)  these are fine up to about a 6 (IMO).  I’d think twice about using them on fast deep waters with treacherous footing and I wouldn’t even consider regular boot foot waders in such conditions.                                                  Hope this helps,                                                           Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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Question:

Anyone use cat fur for dubbing.Seems like it should work fine. I have a grey cat and a black and white cat that I brush. I tied a few flies with good results but haven’t fished them yet. Any experience with this.

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: Anyone use cat fur for dubbing.Seems like it should work fine. I have a : grey cat and a black and white cat that I brush. I tied a few flies with : good results but haven’t fished them yet. Any experience with this.  Ummmm…..Yes. But just don’t tell those PETA people about it. It would only make them madder at fishermen!  ;)   My experience with cat fur as dubbing has been that cat fur is rather course to work with. Try mixing in some rabbit of the same color to make the dubbing hold together better. A rabbit and alley cat blend is what Polly Rosborough like to use to make his Stone fly nymph. How do you get dubbing from a cat?  Very carefully….. Here, kitty, kitty, kitty… Jon Porter

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Anyone use cat fur for dubbing.Seems like it should work fine. I have a grey cat and a black and white cat that I brush. I tied a few flies with good results but haven’t fished them yet. Any experience with this.

Mike…. My girlfriend has a long hair white cat.  I have used the fur for dubbing and have found that it works fine.  Because the fur is so long, I have found the best use is on streamers and nymphs where you want an action like Marabou.  I tried it on a dry but it didn’t work too well. I had to keep applying floatant as it absorbed A LOT of water. Good luck, Steve Hering

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Your getting to involvoled,lighten up! A year ago I was scourering the roads for roadkill before I realized my family was worried and on the verge of suggesting psychiatric help. I enjoy fishing to much to give them the satisfaction of having a qauck tell me I need to quit. Keep your actions private and you shouldn’t have any trouble.

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Now there’s a twist, the fish eating the cat!

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I HAVE OR I SHOULD REALLY SAY MY WIFE HAS A CAT, ITS A CALICO. AND I CUT I WAD OF FUR OFF HER AND USE IT AS DUBBING. IT WORKS GREAT ON NYMPHS , WITH AMAZING RESULTS. IT IS VERY SPIKEY AND DUBS  REAL FINE. THE CALICO DOESN’T SEEM TO MIND WHEN I CUT SOME HAIR OFF HER ( IT ALWAYS GROWS BACK ) MY WIFE BITCHES ABOUT IT THOUGH.GOOD LUCK WITH THIS RENEWABLE DUBBING.

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Your getting to involvoled,lighten up! A year ago I was scourering the roads for roadkill before I realized my family was worried and on the verge of suggesting psychiatric help. I enjoy fishing to much to give them the satisfaction of having a qauck tell me I need to quit. Keep your actions private and you shouldn’t have any trouble.

What’s the best way to keep the hair from slipping once you get the skin off?    J. Rice

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I have a grey, long haired cat that has just about any shade of grey you could want. Doesn’t float too well, though…… Best Regards,                         Sourcing  Laser Diodes, Optics, Motors, Electronics, Timothy M. Beahan,              Photodiodes and such for Laser products used in the Purchasing Agent,                 Construction industry, such as aligning water pipe, Laser Alignment, Inc.             land leveling and contouring, and interior construction. 6330 28th St. SE                      Serving the world wide marketplace. Grand Rapids, MI 49546 Ph (616)942-4610 Fax (616)940-8609

Response:

Anyone use cat fur for dubbing.Seems like it should work fine. I have a grey cat and a black and white cat that I brush. I tied a few flies with good results but haven’t fished them yet. Any experience with this.

Yes, I have a little bit of cat fur that was given to me to tie a pattern called "The Kittie Caddis".  Great shade of gray with some brown mixed in and it works great.  Story goes that my friend’s room mate used to brush his mother’s gray & brown cat to get some of the fur for fly tying without raising his mothers ire.  His mother was heartsick when the cat died and her son offered to bury the cat for her.  He shaved the fur off before he buried the cat.  Cat didn’t care, he was dead and mom never knew.  Fish like it just fine.                                               Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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Question:

bc, we have got to get out on the Provo some time so you can show me your waters.  Just tell me when you are able to go and I’ll see what I can do. Vern – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snipped I love fishing Utah. However, don’t go fishing where the out of state fly-fishermen go. You need to ask some of the local fly-fishermen to tell you where to go. Vern, And there are some local people that don’t fly fish that will be more then happy to tell you where to go bc. — Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. -Benjamin Franklin

Before you buy.

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I plan of fishing in Northern Utah this year.  It’s just farther from me than Southern Utah.  Therefore, I can get out to Southern Utah a lot more. Vern Actually, Northern Utah fishing is great, and there are a lot of places where you can get out without the crowds, and still enjoy a day out. You should give it a try some time. Also, check out http://www.fishwest.com/Utah. You can get a lot of info on northern UT fishing.

Before you buy.

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Keep your eyes open, though.  My son came tearing back up the trail looking like he’d seen Satan himself. Satan living in Utah?? I don’t think so. Every conservative christian knows Satan lives in Oregon.

Visits here in WI pretty often though.  Seems to like the weather, mosquitos, deer flies, horse flies, black flies, ticks, Miller beer, and those adorable foam rubber cheese hats!        :)

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As long as the snake has not drawn its pistol you are relatively safe ! TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

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Steve Oregon churches send missionaries to heathen Washington state. We have the rep as the most "unchurched" state in the union. ET2 would feel right at home in this respect. I only know one person who is into their church. On the other hand, I know 3 mail order ministers, 2 witches, 2 shaman, and many just plain pagans, and Im no fringy. Winter solstice is a major event, and July 4th has many aspects of an emerging religious holiday. Mostly the local christians adapt and rarely push things. And they do make themselves useful for weddings and burials, although, in our circle I think the mail order ministers handle about 50% of the business. One of the best is a Jewish guy. Folks like the mix of Hebrew/Native American stuff. Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Keep your eyes open, though.  My son came tearing back up the trail looking like he’d seen Satan himself. Satan living in Utah?? I don’t think so. Every conservative christian knows Satan lives in Oregon. –Steve

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Mike Connor wrote As long as the snake has not drawn its pistol you are relatively safe !

Snakes that shoot?  Well I suppose I could believe that. But snakes that draw?….Methinks you’ve been a bussin’ the famous stone, Michael me boyo. —                                                       -dnc-

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ET1 I can’t remember the last marriage that was held in a church. Opps take that back, about three years ago, mail order minister and a pickup with half a load of Alaska crab. Best one I saw recently was conducted by the Church of Elvis (HQ in Portland I believe) on the Winslow ferry. Oregon is wierd mix. I get a kick out of their public access cable. Do they still have that old guy doing the live sex shows from various blue venues? Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oregon has a very interesting mix of liberal and conservative folks. There are quite a few religious people, but any place where medicinal mariuana and euthanasia are legal has a good portion of liberals. On the side, when I got married last summer, I literally had to interview all the "nondenominational ministers" since there were so many.  Got to hear all sorts of interesting stories, marriages in the nude, people consecrating their wedding immediately afterwards, etc. I suddenly felt quite…..normal.    - Ken — "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet."  - Al Gore

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Utah, fishing, it sucks.  Too many people on the water and just try and get a parking spot within a mile and a half of Little Hole.  Better fishing and less people in Oregon. Al – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have you ever fished in Utah? no What did you think? not much. waldo

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Utah, fishing, it sucks.  Too many people on the water and just try and get a parking spot within a mile and a half of Little Hole.  Better fishing and less people in Oregon.

No, no, no, don’t let them fool you.  It rains constantly in Oregon, better fishing in Colorado.      - Ken — "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the  initiative in creating the Internet."  - Al Gore

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Have you ever fished in Utah? What did you think?

I love fishing Utah.  However, don’t go fishing where the out of state fly-fishermen go.  You need to ask some of the local fly-fishermen to tell you where to go. My favorite secret fishing spot is in Southern Utah.  However, don’t ask me where it is.  I won’t tell you.  I’ve only seen one other fly- fisherman there.  That’s the way I want to keep it.  Most people want to go to Northern Utah.  I don’t know much about that area. Here is a url with photos of my favorite spot in Utah.  The waters are calm and clear with fish that are hard to catch.  Though it says it was my last trip, it was not.  I have not had a chance to update my web- site yet.  Here’s the url: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/NEWS1.html — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html Before you buy.

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<snipped I love fishing Utah.  However, don’t go fishing where the out of state fly-fishermen go.  You need to ask some of the local fly-fishermen to tell you where to go.

Vern, And there are some local people that don’t fly fish that will be more then happy to tell you where to go bc. — Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. -Benjamin Franklin

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<snipped Ah come on Al – fly fishing is great at little hole.  Last year, I think I made 4 trips up there and had no problem parking.  How often did you fly fish it? bc. — Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. -Benjamin Franklin

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Have you ever fished in Utah? What did you think?

I used to fish some little canyons around Dinosaur. Most places were pretty remote but were very enjoyable hikes and nice fishing. — Charlie…

Response:

Actually, Northern Utah fishing is great, and there are a lot of places where you can get out without the crowds, and still enjoy a day out. You should give it a try some time. Also, check out http://www.fishwest.com/Utah. You can get a lot of info on northern UT fishing.

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Vern,    That looks like the Southwest corner of Utah down by Four Corners, some beautiful country there. Ernie

<snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -My favorite secret fishing spot is in Southern Utah.  However, don’t ask me where it is.  I won’t tell you.  I’ve only seen one other fly- fisherman there.  That’s the way I want to keep it.  Most people want to go to Northern Utah.  I don’t know much about that area. Vern

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Have you ever fished in Utah?

Only once, about 6 years ago. What did you think?

Loved it! Our destination was the Green River, below Flaming Gorge dam.  We stayed in Vernal — one of those rare places where residents don’t bother to lock their doors.  Rooms at the Best Western were $20!  We stayed there for a week for what one night at the "fishin’ resort" would have cost. Fishing the Green was great, but we also explored and fished smaller, lesser known streams.  One that was a lot of fun (don’t know its name) crosses the road from Vernal to Flaming Gorge — and is about 2/3 of the way to the dam.  We followed it downstream from the road and, although a small stream, caught many fish in the 14 – 16 inch range. Keep your eyes open, though.  My son came tearing back up the trail looking like he’d seen Satan himself.  He’d almost stepped on a fat rattler. When it started buzzing right at his feet, he ’bout lost it. Unlike the Green (which is host to hordes of fiishers), nobody else was fishing the "little stuff." Been hoping to go back ever since, but have recently fallen in love with the Jackson Hole area and been spending my limited "out of state" time around there. Wes Peterson

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Keep your eyes open, though.  My son came tearing back up the trail looking like he’d seen Satan himself.

Satan living in Utah?? I don’t think so. Every conservative christian knows Satan lives in Oregon. –Steve

Response:

Keep your eyes open, though.  My son came tearing back up the trail looking like he’d seen Satan himself. Satan living in Utah?? I don’t think so. Every conservative christian knows Satan lives in Oregon.

And they should run, flee, flee I tell you, all you conservative christians flee back to Utah….HA HA HA!!!      - Ken — "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the  initiative in creating the Internet."  - Al Gore

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Al Simpson wrote Utah, fishing, it sucks.  Too many people on the water and just try and get a parking spot within a mile and a half of Little Hole.

I go to the Green every May.  There’s always plenty of parking at Little Hole.  However, most of the browns you catch in that section of the river do lack a certain amount of enthusiasm when hooked. —                                                       -dnc-

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Have you ever fished in Utah? What did you think?

Response:

Have you ever fished in Utah? no What did you think? not much. waldo

Hey, pal, you got a problem with Utah? <g –Steve

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Have you ever fished in Utah? What did you think?

The state-run liquor stores closed way too early. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyo Before you buy.

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Have you ever fished in Utah?

no What did you think?

not much. waldo

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From Rolly & Wells column in today’s Slat Lake Tribune:    Kathy Lambert of Salt Lake County reports that an acquaintance    visiting Utah recently was dining at Applebees in Salt Lake City and    asked the waitress what kinds of merlot and chardonnay wines were    available. The waitress gave the group a puzzled look, then said she    would find out. A few minutes later she came back with a triumphant    look on her face and proudly proclaimed: "The merlot is red and the    chardonnay is white." Only in Utah! Chuck W – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have you ever fished in Utah? What did you think? The state-run liquor stores closed way too early. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyo Before you buy.

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Have you ever fished in Utah? no What did you think? not much. waldo Hey, pal, you got a problem with Utah? <g –Steve

yeah, what’s the deal with all that salt? walt, who loves western americana

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: I will be in Utah around SnowBird and Alta ski resorts in Mid Feb. Can : someone recommend somewhere? Yeah, a grass hut on the beach of Bora Bora!  

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: I will be in Utah around SnowBird and Alta ski resorts in Mid Feb. Can : someone recommend somewhere? For fishing? Serious?  I would guess a pot of water suspended over a large campfire might be your only bet.   — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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: I will be in Utah around SnowBird and Alta ski resorts in Mid Feb. Can : someone recommend somewhere?

You guys don’t know Utah to well some of the best fishing of the year is right on the doorstep of the ski areas in February –hint bring #16 and #18 pheasant tail nymph,9ft.4X leaders, Talk to a guide name Chris – tell him Pete B. sent you  

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I live in Provo and fish the Provo river at least once a week.  Last time I checked there wasn’t ten feet of snow, and if there were river access is easy enough to get around the snow.  In fact, we had a blast hooking into big fish using some small midge patterns on top just a few days ago.  Granted there is the ugly avalanche that’s 60′ deep and a half a mile wide, but that’s quite far from where the good fishing is on the Provo.     So if you’re going to be in Utah for a while check out my Utah fly fishing page for the latest on the conditions.   http://www.et.byu.edu/~fryc Curtis Fry

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I will be in Utah around SnowBird and Alta ski resorts in Mid Feb. Can someone recommend somewhere?

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Question:

Hello Dcoop,    I’ve been flyfishing for only a few years now here in NY state. I live in Rensselaer near Albany, NY and don’t get to as much fishing as I would like to, but I do fish the adirondacks once in a while. I do have some friends though that fish it quite a bit up on the Ausable and Scroon rivers. What would you like to know? Maybe I can help. Email me at – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I writing this article to see if there is anyone on the web who flyfishes the Adirondacks. I’m looking to chat about fly hatches and fishing conditions in the great northeast. Thanks’ Dcoop

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  I writing this article to see if there is anyone on the web who flyfishes the Adirondacks. I’m looking to chat about fly hatches and fishing conditions in the great northeast. Thanks’ Dcoop

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