Question:

Sounds like a FANTASTIC day on the water,  great report jh

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter Charles writes: <great report/info snipped Plans are in the offing for the next trip. Ok, I can’t make it tomorrow, but Friday is open!  d;o) Got home after an 8 hour drive (512 miles) in pouring rain, but every time I thought of those fish, I began to smile. If you’ve  fished with me, you know I don’t move around too well.  Legs and feet are very sore, but hotdamn, ya get an 18 pound salmon on a fly rod and he begins one (1) run that takes you well into your backing, ya hafta fall/leap out of the boat and run after the damn thing.  It ain’t fair.  But, is sure is heart thumping and adrenaline pumping.  And then, the bastid comes running back at you; once your get your line all wound up and clear,  he’s off on another run  into the backing   It is definitely weird to be running downstream in knee-deep water, with your flyrod high and see a fish jump 250 feet in front of you and realize that you are connected to that fish with a hundred feet of line, a hundred and forty feet of backing , 10 feet of 10 pound tippet and a fly that you *know* is gonna go straight any second.  Multiply that by 4 and you have an idea of the day Peter and I had on the Saugeen. I know where Peter lives.  I’ll be back, with a 10 foot 7 weight *with a fighting butt*, a Lamson 3.5 large arbor filled with wf line and as much backing as it can hold.  If not next month, Peter, count on late April/early May.  And this time we open the 18 year old stuff.  <G Dave

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(snip) It is definitely weird to be running downstream in knee-deep water, with your flyrod high and see a fish jump 250 feet in front of you and realize that you are connected to that fish with a hundred feet of line, a hundred and forty feet of backing , 10 feet of 10 pound tippet

(snip)     that whole thing is just crazy.  just freaking crazy.  i can’t imagine such an experience. yfitons wayno

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -wayno writes: (snip) It is definitely weird to be running downstream in knee-deep water, with your flyrod high and see a fish jump 250 feet in front of you and realize that you are connected to that fish with a hundred feet of line, a hundred and forty feet of backing , 10 feet of 10 pound tippet (snip)    that whole thing is just crazy.  just freaking crazy.  i can’t imagine such an experience. yfitons wayno

Save a day next may.  You can sleep in the rv.  I’ll let you use my 8 weight *with* the fighting butt.  I wanna see your scrawny ass runnin down the middle of this water.  <G Louie

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   that whole thing is just crazy.  just freaking crazy.  i can’t imagine such an experience. yfitons wayno

There’s a solution for that . . . . Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Peter Charles writes:    that whole thing is just crazy.  just freaking crazy.  i can’t imagine such an experience. yfitons wayno There’s a solution for that . . . . Peter

He’s used to catching iddy biddy trout the size of his dick, Peter.  He wouldn’t dream of going up and fishing with us.  The largest rod he has is a 2 weight – we’d have to loan him equipment and probably teach him how to cast it.  <seg  This water is meant for PJ and combat fishing. Louie (who hopes insults will move his scrawny ass)

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Peter He’s used to catching iddy biddy trout the size of his dick, Peter.  He wouldn’t dream of going up and fishing with us.  The largest rod he has is a 2 weight – we’d have to loan him equipment and probably teach him how to cast it. <seg  This water is meant for PJ and combat fishing. Louie (who hopes insults will move his scrawny ass)

That small eh?  In that case, I would think a 0 weight would be more appropriate.  If he came, we’d probably need a bosun’s chair just to lower him out of the boat.  BTW, think he can even lift an 8 wt.?  If he ever hooked a salmon, he’d probably throw the rod overboard from sheer fright.    (how am I doin’?) Peter

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It’s late, I’m beat, the pirate is whacked – this TR is gonna be short. Up at 4:30 and, on the road at 5:15, arrived at the store at 6:00, on the water by 8:00 and home by 9:00pm.   Louie before the trip, "I’m gonna take my 6 wt."   Told the Pirate not to bother with his vest or the 6 wt.   Well, we’re at the put-in and John Valk (owner/guide) is going "Nyet" to the 6 wt.  Out comes the 8 wt.  Now I’m looking at Louie and the fighting butt on the 8 wt. is missing, "I took it off." he says.  Silly boy.  By the end of the day, there’s no vest, the 6 wt. never left its tube and he has a hole in his sternum where he had stuck the reel seat on repeated occasions. Best shot of the day – watching Louie’s face as his backing rapidly disappears.  Second best shot of the day, seeing Louie running 100 yds downstream trying to retrieve his backing – after vaulting out of the drift boat. Anyway, a bunch of very feisty chinook was had and all returned in one piece (including the anglers).   Details at 6:00. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Anyway, a bunch of very feisty chinook was had and all returned in one piece (including the anglers).   Sounds great.  Were there any steelhead in as yet ? Remove "XX" from address

We saw a few but the real run hasn’t gone going yet.  We need colder temps and a *lot* more water. As John fussed with the boat and stuff, there were a bunch of salmon playing in the shallows.  I had a poke at them with the big stick but no joy.  With that experience, I put it away and took out a single hander. Dave got out a rarely used Orvis 8 wt. with a big sinktip that proved to be a difficult line to use in the low water conditions. Dave, by his own admission, was unsure what this fishing would be about and when we found a pod of about 20 salmon cavorting about, he had two silver dollars for eyeballs.   John has a particular way of doing a wet fly swing (he likes the fly oriented north-south – I tend to a broadside presentation) but we both used John’s technique.  We swim the fly in front of the pod and hope that a big, pissed-off male will charge out and nail it.  Frequently, we were not disappointed and Dave got a very lively fish out of this pod within a couple of minutes. Dave hooked up first (a fish probably in the low teens) which promptly peeled off all of his line and a good quantity of backing.  It was a great intro to Saugeen salmon fishing.  He eventually ended up about 100 yards downstream where the fish was netted. A couple of points about these fish.  Credit River salmon are stocked and live in Lake Ontario whereas the Saugeen fish are naturals and live in Lake Huron.  You cannot imagine how much difference this results in.  Saugeen fish, even 70 miles upstream, are fairly bright and in excellent shape.  Credit River stockers are only a few miles up stream and already black and rotting.  The Saugeen fish takes off at a high rate of knots when released, even after a long fight.  He’s usually back cavorting in a minute or two.  Credit River fish often roll over an die upon release after a half-hearted fight.  John told us a story of catching the same chinook three times in succession and it fought just as hard the third time as it did the first. The Saugeen was especially low and clear so the fish were always very obvious.  We drifted over a few steelhead, loads of huge smallies, some browns, red horse suckers, carp, and a few unidentified.  The colours were especially bright in the high sun, and with the warm day, it was a very pleasant trip all-round. Final results were something like four fish each landed and multiple hookups (including one double).  Most of the fish were in the teens but one of mine was over 20 lbs.  We saw and hooked a few bruisers that ran over 30.  All of them took off in long runs.  Some of the fish were quite aerobatic with jumps, lunges and tumbles that often resulted in them being wrapped up in line.  One of mine began to fight funny after a few minutes. On initial hookup, the fish stuck his head out of the water with an open mouthed head shake that told of a fair hook.  By the time we got him landed, the fly was still in his mouth but he had about five winds of line around one fin.  Dave had one where the fly started off in it’s mouth and ended up in it’s tail.  We figured it too got wrapped up in line and then the fly came loose only to reattach. I’ll have a trip on my site by next week with pics that will give some indication of the river and the fish.   It was fun as always having the Pirate up and Thanksgiving dinner will long be remembered for the gales of laughter and the sore sides we had in the morning. Plans are in the offing for the next trip. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Peter Charles writes: <great report/info snipped Plans are in the offing for the next trip.

Don’t wait too long. Ok, I can’t make it tomorrow, but Friday is open!  d;o)

At the Salmon River, Saugeen next week. Got home after an 8 hour drive (512 miles) in pouring rain, but every time I thought of those fish, I began to smile.

probably brighter than those bright blue Audi headlights. If you’ve  fished with me, you know I don’t move around too well.  Legs and feet are very sore, but hotdamn, ya get an 18 pound salmon on a fly rod and he begins one (1) run that takes you well into your backing, ya hafta fall/leap out of the boat and run after the damn thing.  It ain’t fair.  But, is sure is heart thumping and adrenaline pumping.  And then, the bastid comes running back at you; once your get your line all wound up and clear,  he’s off on another run  into the backing   It is definitely weird to be running downstream in knee-deep water, with your flyrod high and see a fish jump 250 feet in front of you and realize that you are connected to that fish with a hundred feet of line, a hundred and forty feet of backing , 10 feet of 10 pound tippet and a fly that you *know* is gonna go straight any second.  Multiply that by 4 and you have an idea of the day Peter and I had on the Saugeen.  

It was a memorable day fer sure.   I know where Peter lives.  I’ll be back, with a 10 foot 7 weight *with a fighting butt*, a Lamson 3.5 large arbor filled with wf line and as much backing as it can hold. If not next month, Peter, count on late April/early May.  And this time we open the 18 year old stuff.  <G

You mean, like again! Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Peter Charles writes:

<great report/info snipped Plans are in the offing for the next trip.

Ok, I can’t make it tomorrow, but Friday is open!  d;o) Got home after an 8 hour drive (512 miles) in pouring rain, but every time I thought of those fish, I began to smile. If you’ve  fished with me, you know I don’t move around too well.  Legs and feet are very sore, but hotdamn, ya get an 18 pound salmon on a fly rod and he begins one (1) run that takes you well into your backing, ya hafta fall/leap out of the boat and run after the damn thing.  It ain’t fair.  But, is sure is heart thumping and adrenaline pumping.  And then, the bastid comes running back at you; once your get your line all wound up and clear,  he’s off on another run  into the backing   It is definitely weird to be running downstream in knee-deep water, with your flyrod high and see a fish jump 250 feet in front of you and realize that you are connected to that fish with a hundred feet of line, a hundred and forty feet of backing , 10 feet of 10 pound tippet and a fly that you *know* is gonna go straight any second.  Multiply that by 4 and you have an idea of the day Peter and I had on the Saugeen.   I know where Peter lives.  I’ll be back, with a 10 foot 7 weight *with a fighting butt*, a Lamson 3.5 large arbor filled with wf line and as much backing as it can hold.  If not next month, Peter, count on late April/early May.  And this time we open the 18 year old stuff.  <G Dave

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Sounds like a great trip. Sight fishing for big fish, can’t beat that! Did you catch anything other than the Chinooks?

Nope, we were hoping for steelhead but the conditions were too warm and the water too low.  We saw lots of smallies but with the low, clear water, we saw them when we spooked them.   Not sure I’d call the the Saugeen fish "natural" but the same differences you found here between the stocked and streambred salmon also applies to trout. Even though the genetics might be the same, the stocked fish act differently even after being in the wild for a considerable time. Willi

I used the term ‘natural’ to mean naturally reproducing.  While these chinook exhibit superior characteristics as compared to their stocked cousins, I haven’t seem the same difference between natural and stocked browns on the Grand.  That may have something to do with how the Grand stocking program is managed. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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I thought that Ontario had stopped stocking chinook altogether, but I guess not, eh ?   The strain of chinook used for stocking is one that does not move in until quite late.  I’ve read that what has happened in some cases where natural reproduction has been established is that over generations the salmon have tended to come into rivers earlier and earlier prior to spawning.  It sounds like the Saugeen is one of them.

I’ve always understood that Credit River chinook were stocked as the prospects for natural reproduction were poor.  John confirmed that they were stockers. I’ve not heard about earlier runs but with the Saugeen being farther north, an earlier run is to be expected.  There’s no question that they are much healthier fish. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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      Anyway, a bunch of very feisty chinook was had and all returned in one   piece (including the anglers).       Sounds great.  Were there any steelhead in as yet ?     Remove "XX" from address       A couple of points about these fish.  Credit River salmon are stocked   and live in Lake Ontario whereas the Saugeen fish are naturals and   live in Lake Huron.  You cannot imagine how much difference this   results in.  Saugeen fish, even 70 miles upstream, are fairly bright   and in excellent shape.  Credit River stockers are only a few miles up   stream and already black and rotting.  The Saugeen fish takes off at a   high rate of knots when released, even after a long fight.  He’s   usually back cavorting in a minute or two.  Credit River fish often   roll over an die upon release after a half-hearted fight.  John told   us a story of catching the same chinook three times in succession and   it fought just as hard the third time as it did the first. Sounds like a great trip. Sight fishing for big fish, can’t beat that! Did you catch anything other than the Chinooks? Not sure I’d call the the Saugeen fish "natural" but the same differences you found here between the stocked and streambred salmon also applies to trout. Even though the genetics might be the same, the stocked fish act differently even after being in the wild for a considerable time. Willi

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Question:

In some sense the problem of new dams is mostly past.  I think there is no "good" place left in the US to build a really large dam (with the possible exception of the Grand Canyon).  The last big dam built (Teton Dam) collapsed 25 years ago.  It was the almost inevitable result of continuing to build after the last technically "good" location was used. I think building of medium sized dams pretty much stopped soon thereafter.  It is harder to tell because smaller dams are less newsworthy.  Generally, it is no longer economically justified to build most dams.  Partially this is because of the elimination of cheap real estate.  Just as with large dams, the "good" locations were already used.  A significant increase in environmental concerns raises the associated costs.  There is also a realization that many older dams are technically weak, so new dams now require a much more conservative (that is expensive) design.  The result is that new dams are not being built and a few old dams are even being removed for economic reasons. I think the conclusion is that new dams are pretty much a non-issue.  Of course there are still a lot of old dams around with no viable justification for their existence.      Larry

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What do you all think? I think there would be little runnable water in the east without dam releases! – Mothra

As you know, the Cheat has no dams in its watershed yet still offers a very long season. Its tributaries are free flowing and a hoot to paddle when the Cheat Canyon gets too high. Without dams in the East paddling would be…different. More seasonal. Less crowded. Still fun. But I’ll admit, I’d hate to do ALL my Upper Yough paddling in February Jordan

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That’s the best response I’ve heard yet. At least the one I liked best.  I wish more people were able to look at things as objectively. There is nothing wrong with being against something as long as you have good reason to feel the way you do. And it’s always better to temper your position with an understanding of the other side of an issue.

You did not originally ask for a balanced judgement on whether dams are beneficial or detrimental to the world and to society at large: You asked why boaters don’t like them. — JML

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Why are paddlers most often against daming rivers?

Have a look at what has been done in Austria or the French Alps… Many rivers have been dammed, often burying great stretches of white water, creating environmental nightmares in the places that were swamped (think Brazil). The parts that are left unburied are either degraded to concrete channels in which the water is urged downstream as quickly as possible, to prevent flooding problems, or have become completey dry, as the water is led around the steepest (and therefore often the best) stretches of original riverbed. They provide drinking water and a myriad of recreation opportunites (often times including whitewater releases) in addition to the electricity.

Actually, you just gave off yet another problem: by using that water for agricultural use, drinking water or letting it evaporate, you lose a lot of what before the damming went down to fill the riverbed downstream. So even more of the river gets hit! Wilko PS: Mind you, I agree that there are some benefits as well, like "clean" electricity, controlling floods that threaten people and such… For Austria for example it’s one of the few dependable export products they have (AFAIK They have no large ore or mineral deposits). PPS: No Scott, don’t even try, I won’t waste the energy to reply to you. — Wilko van den Bergh                       quibus(at)europe(dot)com     Eindhoven           The Netherlands            Europe                       "Look Mum: No sense!"  

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In other cases, dams are objectionable because they have flooded incredibly beautiful valleys.  Hetch Hetchy and Glen Canyon are prime examples.  I seriously doubt that these would be built today.

And don’t forget the New Melones Dam that drowned out a fantastic class III run of the Stanislaus River.  I never got to see it because I started paddling the first year it was no longer (and had moved the the east coast, the year the drought brought it back).  That stretch was a big loss to river runners.  Sure, the South Fork of the American is nice, but it’s great to have some choices. Lori

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2.   OK,  now let’s look at dams from purely a whitewater paddling perspective.   Yes,  some dams actually improve our whitewater resources. The Grand Canyon is the obvious biggie.

I would disagree with this statement.  I think the Grand Canyon was a better place to paddle before the Glen Canyon Dam.  First of all, the flows were consistent, rather than these funky daily fluxuations that go on now.  Also, the water was much warmer.  It was also possible to hit it at a high flow, which can happen now, but doesn’t happen every year like it used to.  I think the yearly patterns were fairly predictable, and I’m sure there was plenty of water most years for a full season.  There were also more sand bars.  And the list goes on….. I’m sorry, but I can’t agree that there is any good contributed to river running due to the Glen Canyon Dam.  The only good that dam does is for the Casinos in Las Vegas. Lori

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   p.s. I can’t stand it when people call a dam controlled body of water a lake.  It’s a flowage or in some cases backwater.  (It’s usually the people who overpaid for property around it that will call it a lake)

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That’s the best response I’ve heard yet. At least the one I liked best.  I wish more people were able to look at things as objectively. There is nothing wrong with being against something as long as you have good reason to feel the way you do. And it’s always better to temper your position with an understanding of the other side of an issue. It makes me feel better about this board to know that some of the people who frequent it  can logically address a topic and include insight with their opinions.  The Lake Powell thread on a similar subject had me doubting. -k_thomas

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    I wouldn’t consider myself as an eco-nazi but benefits be "damned", should we screw with Mother Nature as much as we really do?       Living in the Great Lakes region I have seen the dramatic effects of water usage.  Lake Superior alone last year was down 13-20ft. (according to the media.. I never measured it)        I believe our world is dramatically changing every day, and not to our benefit.  Granted I’m only 30 years old, but I can remember snowfalls that where a far greater amount than we receive now.  There are probably a gad-zillion reasons why our planet seems to be changing so rapidly, and I just don’t see the benefits of raping a ecosystem that has had so much damage in the last 130 years.       As a more mature friend of mine has often stated to me…"think globally..and act locally" Craig       …and no I’m not about to stop driving my truck to the river.

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Hetch Hetchy in California is perhaps the most egregious example.  A valley equivalent to Yosemite Valley is under water and closed to most public uses. The water from it goes to farmers and could easily be stored in Don Pedro Reservoir which is below it.

I dispute you here… Glen Canyon is by far the most egregious example with Boulder Damn not far behind. Having spent several long seasons climbing in Yosemite and imagining what was under Hetch Hetchy, I can agree that it too is an egregious wrong, but nowhere nearly so large or so environmentally destructive in it’s extent as Glen Canyon Damn and Lake Foul. Warren

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I know that this isn’t the forum for a discussion of alternative energy sources but I really think that we need to take a serious look again at nuclear.  It, besides hydropower, is the only conceivable short-term source of abundant power.  If we, like much of the rest of the world, had a significant portion of our energy that comes from nukes, we wouldn’t need so many dams. I laugh whenever I hear the "Solar, Wind, Geothermal…." argument.  None of those are or will ever be a source of the abundant power that our country thinks it needs.  I don’t think that it is realistic to expect that Americans will be willing to drastically change the way we use energy. So what are the choices? 1) Fossil fuels – Bad, bad, dissappearing. 2) Hydropower – (see this discussion for reasons not to like them). 3) Alternative Energy (Diffuse – Not readily available) 4) Nuclear Energy Many of our fears about them are based on experiences from the 60’s and 70’s – The rest of the world has gone full speed ahead and the industry has forty years of experience behind them.  We can make them clean and safe. Many countries are sucessfully using our technology to dispose of the waste. Randy Hodges BTW – An interesting book about the depression era dam building is "Bucking the Sun" by Ivan Doig.  I found it interesting because my grandfather helped build Shasta Dam in California. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t think my post really clasifies as a troll.  I was obviouslly looking for responses, but the intent was provoke thought and dialogue not argument and emotion. It just seems to me that paddlers have a knee jerk reaction to dams that defies logic. Someone in this thread mentioned the destruction of salmon species and of particularly unique environments as an argument against dams.  In the cases where those are valid concerns I completely see the agrument against the dam.  Those cases seem to be more an exception than a rule in my limited experience.  Maybe thats because I live in the east. But, I honestly believe that ,in general, dams are better for the environment that the main alternatives available today(coal, natural gas, and nuclear).  So to me the generic bad for the environment arguments holds no water(pun intended).  Solar, wind and tidal power may provide a cleaner, more environmentally friendly option in the future but are not economically viable yet today. my $.02 -k_thomas

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      That’s a thoughtful question, D. There are MANY reasons why kayakers generally oppose dams, and no answer under 100 pages will be complete.   So I’ll try to give a simple perspective on two basic reasons why kayakers hate dams:     1.    I would say the simplest reason is purely ecological.  Dams tend to destroy habitat, first by the massive construction and earth-moving project, and then forever by changing river flow that has existed for millions of years, shaping the surrounding ecosystem.     2.   OK,  now let’s look at dams from purely a whitewater paddling perspective.   Yes,  some dams actually improve our whitewater resources. The Grand Canyon is the obvious biggie.  Here in the West,  the NF Payette in Idaho and the Tuolumne and Lower Kern in Calif. are other examples of dams stretching out the season.  A lot of boaters back east benefit from dam releases creating long seasons.       But there are many dams that reduce or outright  KILL a good whitewater run.   Nothing kills a river quicker than taking the water out of the river and putting it into a pipe. One of the greatest whitewater rivers in the world is the Kern River in Southern California. For about 20 million people to the south,  this is the ONLY major whitewater river within reasonable weekend driving distance.      The aforementioned Lower Kern runs longer because of the dam at Isabella Lake,   But this dam also raises water temperature,  and something is very wrong with the fish screening system at the dam’s outlet.  This combined with the lake use,  results in horrible water quality on the lower. Lots of ww paddlers complain about sinus problems after rolling in this water.  It takes a lot of the fun out of this run.      The best convenient day-run whitewater on the Kern that is not restricted by special-use permits (as is the classic Forks Run)  is the North Fork, or Upper Kern,  which holds almost 20 miles of runnable ww above Kernville.  Class II, III, IV and V runs are available on this stretch,  plus many playspots, and the whole stretch can be run in a day.          Anyway,  this absolute gem of a run is uniquely blessed with a long, long season,  thanks to the fact that it drains the highest peak in the lower 48, Mt. Whitney.  So on a good snowpack year,  you can run this whitewater,  on natural flow,  from March to October.        Well,  at least according to Mother Nature you can.   That’s where the evil hydropower dam comes in. The KR-3 hydro-dam at Fairview impounds and pipes the flow for about 13 miles of the NF Kern,  reducing  a world-class 17-mile river run,  deemed "Wild and Scenic" by Congress,   into two miles at the top, and two miles at the bottom,  with the middle 13 miles fairly dry for much of the season.               The pipe holds about 600 cfs.  Now,  on a good year, when the river is raging at 4,000 in spring,  it  doesn’t matter much  that the flow in the bypass reach,  or impacted stretch,  is reduced to 3,400.  But that’s the exception.   For most of the season,  the flow is usually around 1,000 cfs, which is a very fun flow for that river.  But reduce that to 400,  and the river is unrunnable for most kayakers.  Almost anything below 1,000 is pretty much  unrunnable for rafters.  So a world-class river, the closest such resource to the second-largest urban population in the country,  is unrunnable when nature is providing a lovely 1,600 cfs.   On dry or even moderate years, the flow might not get higher than this all year.         All of this for an outdated,  inefficient hydropower plant that has seen better days.      This is just one example of how one dam can dramatically impact a river,   and impact the kayakers and rafters who call this river home.  There are many other examples.    We’ve already dammed too many rivers.  We don’t have enough rivers left.   An earlier poster mentioned solar.   Concur.    Until I see a lot more solar panels and modern windmills,  I don’t want to hear about more hydropower dams.  And more important than all of this, we citizens and public agencies need to work much, much more on CONSERVING electricity.  We’re too spoiled with cheap energy.  Maybe the current price crisis out west will have a positive long-term impact.  Turning lights off,  not running our computers 24 hours a day, using efficient appliances, and recycling everything we can (saves mucho electricity from the manufacturing process) is a much better idea than damming more rivers.     OK, that’s the short answer. Respect our rivers.      Steve Waterstrat Steve Waterstrat

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Dams suck because they drown rapids, cause untold ecological damage to the riparian environment downstream and are just one more example of humans thinking they know best.  There are almost always better ways to accomplish the same need. Warren – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why are paddlers most often against daming rivers? I honestly don’t understand why.  Seems to me, it is the cleanest and cheapest way to generate electricity on a large scale.  Furhter, the environmental impact is generally more localized than any other form of power generation.  This makes it easier to determine which ecosystems will be affected and if that impact is worth the benifits of the dam. They provide drinking water and a myriad of recreation opportunites (often times including whitewater releases) in addition to the electricity. I can understand frustration and anger with certain companies(like TVA) that are unwilling to work with us, but not the overall resentment of dams themselves. What do you all think? -k_thomas

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I don’t think my post really clasifies as a troll.  I was obviouslly looking for responses, but the intent was provoke thought and dialogue not argument and emotion. It just seems to me that paddlers have a knee jerk reaction to dams that defies logic. Someone in this thread mentioned the destruction of salmon species and of particularly unique environments as an argument against dams.  In the cases where those are valid concerns I completely see the agrument against the dam.  Those cases seem to be more an exception than a rule in my limited experience.  Maybe thats because I live in the east. But, I honestly believe that ,in general, dams are better for the environment that the main alternatives available today(coal, natural gas, and nuclear).  So to me the generic bad for the environment arguments holds no water(pun intended).  Solar, wind and tidal power may provide a cleaner, more environmentally friendly option in the future but are not economically viable yet today. my $.02 -k_thomas

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What do you all think?

I think there would be little runnable water in the east without dam releases! – Mothra

Response:

Whoa!" when someone speaks of damming a river is that the history of human intervention with the environment

yeah, but around here you can still find traces of Indian fish "dams" on some rivers – places where rocks have been strategically placed to funnel the fishies into a chute.  i think we’ve been messing with mother nature for a long, long time. what’s scary to me is how little "wilderness" or natural places are left.  even in wild, wunderful west virginia there’s more bulldozers every year.   the rainforest too is becoming more and more civilized.   i’m no super environmentalist but i guess the earth is waning – dying if you will.  i love looking out my window at my stand of trees, but there’s a house being built next door and the lot next to me has been sold to a developer. . . . – Mothra

Response:

Why are paddlers most often against daming rivers? I can’t speak for all paddlers.  In my case, the reason why my first thought is "Whoa!" when someone speaks of damming a river is that the history of human intervention with the environment is full of unintended consequences.  When we dam a river, we change things, in a big way.  We can’t always anticipate exactly what will result. —

As always, there are two valid sides to any argument. On the pro-dam side we have: -An exceptionally clean source of electricity (an important concern in these days of "global warming" allegedly caused in part by CO2 produced from coal and natural gas fired power plants). -Flood control, saving lots of money in property damage and possibly some lives every spring. -Recreational benefits from the created lakes (e.g. sailing, power boating) -Irrigation On the anti-dam side we have: -Aesthetics (a flowing river is much nicer to look at than a wall of concrete) -Environmental concerns  (e.g. the effects of flooding habitats, blocking migration routes, etc.  A result of the law of unintended consequences was discovered when they  flooded huge areas of northern Quebec–naturally occurring mercury in the soil and trees ended up in the water, making the fish from the new reservoir toxic…) -Recreational benefits (e.g. kayaking, rafting, fly fishing) -Concerns regarding decommissioning -Concerns regarding effects of silt build up -Danger of poorly maintained, or aging dams.  Just ask people who lived along thousands of kilometers of the Peace River in northern BC and Alberta a few years ago when a sinkhole was discovered in the Bennett dam.  Luckily the sinkhole turned out to be minor and not an indication of imminent failure of the dam, but there was a real scare for a while. The spillway of the dam, opened all the way up could not drain the reservoir sufficiently to prevent a massive wave if the dam collapsed. Of course, every individual person will put different weights on these pro- and con- factors, leading to a different determination of whether or not dams are good or bad. -Paul

Response:

Why are paddlers most often against daming rivers?

I can’t speak for all paddlers.  In my case, the reason why my first thought is "Whoa!" when someone speaks of damming a river is that the history of human intervention with the environment is full of unintended consequences.  When we dam a river, we change things, in a big way.  We can’t always anticipate exactly what will result.   — ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::         "I would not exchange the sorrows of my heart                 for the joys of the multitude"

Response:

Why are paddlers most often against daming rivers?

It’s no fun to paddle a rapid which is under water, nor is it any fun to paddle a rapid which is completely dry.  Old timers can tell you about rapids which used to be fun and runnable which are now either submerged behind a dam, or downstream of a dam which diverts the water to someplace else. I honestly don’t understand why.  Seems to me, it is the cleanest and cheapest way to generate electricity on a large scale.

Some paddlers are more interested in paddling than in the generation, distribution, and consumption of ever increasing amounts of electric power.  Whitewater paddle craft use no electricity, and I’ve known a few boaters who have gone months at a time without using it either (e.g., living from the back of a pickup truck.) Furhter, the environmental impact is generally more localized than any other form of power generation.

First of all, the "locality" affected by some dams can be *HUGE*.  The Three Gorges dam in China will permanently innundate 150,000 acres and force the relocation of 1.4 million people.  Besides the land that’s flooded, who knows how much additional impact will be caused by the displaced people, by the construction project, by the turning of almost four hundred miles of flowing river into a stagnant lake and, by the changes in the way the river banks will be used down stream (the main reason they’re building it is for flood control.) Secondly (and sadly), some paddlers are not interested in preserving ecosystems other than the ones that they happen to paddle through. [Dams] provide drinking water and a myriad of recreation opportunites (often times including whitewater releases) in addition to the electricity.

Now  *THAT*  *IS*  *ARROGANT*!  Dams do not *MAKE* water.  Do you think the Gauley would dry up if someone took the Summersville Dam away?  The Gauley would still run, but it would run on God’s schedule instead of the Army Corps of Engineers’s schedule.  You might just as well tell us to praise the Federal Government for givings us money for schools and highways and whatever when all they are really doing is grudgingly returning a few of the dollars that they took from our pockets in the first place. — Foo! FWIW:  The Three Gorges dam will provide between 15,000 and 20,000        megawatts of electric power — about ten times the output of a        typical coal-fired power station.

Response:

Why are paddlers most often against damming rivers?

I live in Northern California and we are faced with the possible loss of several species of Salmon and Steelhead.  Much (but certainly not all) of that is due to the deleterious effects of dams.  Dams stop or hinder migration, physically harm fish who are washed through generating facilities, and alter the water temperature and oxygen levels. In other cases, dams are objectionable because they have flooded incredibly beautiful valleys.  Hetch Hetchy and Glen Canyon are prime examples.  I seriously doubt that these would be built today. I don’t think that anyone but the most rabid of us are against all dams. Some are certainly necessary and appropriate.  There was a period in our history where nature was a thing to be conquered and where dams were built for dubious reasons such as "We can." or "Lets put people to work." or perhaps even "My supporters want it."  We need to careful consider removing these inappropriate dams. Hetch Hetchy in California is perhaps the most egregious example.  A valley equivalent to Yosemite Valley is under water and closed to most public uses. The water from it goes to farmers and could easily be stored in Don Pedro Reservoir which is below it. Randy Hodges

Response:

Rather than give an inadequate response (my first inclination was to say merely that there’s miles of runnable water under them thar resevoirs! which is true by the way) I would direct you to <americanrivers.org I think that aside from the recreational and commercial opportunities that dams obfuscate, we as paddlers have become by proxy guardians of the continuuity of running water by way of our identification with it and our love of it. There are lots of ecological, communal and scientific horrors that dams bring (many veiled by the relatively short term advantages of things like Las Vegas), especially old, deteriorating, no-longer-even-arguable-useful ones, but I think it boils down to a general belief that rivers are meant to flow and when you stop them up you’re flying in the face of mama nature and that hardly ever leads, in the end, to good. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why are paddlers most often against daming rivers? I honestly don’t understand why.  Seems to me, it is the cleanest and cheapest way to generate electricity on a large scale.  Furhter, the environmental impact is generally more localized than any other form of power generation.  This makes it easier to determine which ecosystems will be affected and if that impact is worth the benifits of the dam. They provide drinking water and a myriad of recreation opportunites (often times including whitewater releases) in addition to the electricity. I can understand frustration and anger with certain companies(like TVA) that are unwilling to work with us, but not the overall resentment of dams themselves. What do you all think? -k_thomas

Response:

Why are paddlers most often against daming rivers?

<snip why dams are so great What do you all think?

well I think that … wait a second, there’s a brite and shiny piece of metal inside this morsel… and, hey, that’s connected to some almost invisible kind of thread.  I’d better go back to the safety of the weeds. Dave ‘looked like a juicy leech for a second there’ P

Response:

Why are paddlers most often against daming rivers? I honestly don’t understand why.  Seems to me, it is the cleanest and cheapest way to generate electricity on a large scale.  Furhter, the environmental impact is generally more localized than any other form of power generation.  This makes it easier to determine which ecosystems will be affected and if that impact is worth the benifits of the dam. They provide drinking water and a myriad of recreation opportunites (often times including whitewater releases) in addition to the electricity. I can understand frustration and anger with certain companies(like TVA) that are unwilling to work with us, but not the overall resentment of dams themselves. What do you all think? -k_thomas

Response:

I’ve wondered this about myself. The two stretches of water I regret most in my life of not having run are Glen Canyon and Ripogenous Gorge, both beneath reservoirs. But both stretches of river *below* the dams are runnable primarily because the dams are there.  Yet, I still feel that I’d rather the river was wild and often unrunnable than tamed and runnable. I suppose its because I spend much more time than the average flatlander ON the river, so I get to feel and see all the multitude of interactions between the elements of a riparian community. The presence of a dam imbalances that so much, upstream, at-site and downstream, that it seems abominable. I don’t see dams primarily as ‘power-generating stations’ any more than I see a wooded hillside as ‘iron ore’ or a pollution belching city as ‘economic opportunity’. riverman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why are paddlers most often against daming rivers? I honestly don’t understand why.  Seems to me, it is the cleanest and cheapest way to generate electricity on a large scale.  Furhter, the environmental impact is generally more localized than any other form of power generation.  This makes it easier to determine which ecosystems will be affected and if that impact is worth the benifits of the dam. They provide drinking water and a myriad of recreation opportunites (often times including whitewater releases) in addition to the electricity. I can understand frustration and anger with certain companies(like TVA) that are unwilling to work with us, but not the overall resentment of dams themselves. What do you all think? -k_thomas

Response:

I think overall anything changed in this world from its natural state is not good.  I know as an outdoor person I enjoy the beauty of nature in its natural state. Why don’t they spend more time and money on other forms of energy like Solar?  Would this not solve many problems like high oil, gas, electric costs?  As well as reduce pollution and other effects on the environment. Just my thoughts. Rgds – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why are paddlers most often against daming rivers? I honestly don’t understand why.  Seems to me, it is the cleanest and cheapest way to generate electricity on a large scale.  Furhter, the environmental impact is generally more localized than any other form of power generation.  This makes it easier to determine which ecosystems will be affected and if that impact is worth the benifits of the dam. They provide drinking water and a myriad of recreation opportunites (often times including whitewater releases) in addition to the electricity. I can understand frustration and anger with certain companies(like TVA) that are unwilling to work with us, but not the overall resentment of dams themselves. What do you all think? -k_thomas

Response:

Question:

Any thoughts by anyone as to what (sometimes) works there, if anything-ever, would be MOST appreciated.

Bob, Best fishing is in low light conditions….dawn, dusk/dark, rain. (refer back to my ‘Fishing in the rain’ post, the location was the flat water below the Y-Pool.)  In daylight, small flies on 7X/8X tippets will work when the trout are feeding. Sight fishing works much better than using an indicator. Many times the trout simply don’t feed during daylight. If you get too frustrated, go downstream and play with the little rainbows…..they feed all the time. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

Response:

……back channel me and I will type it for you…

Oh man, this place is getting REALLY disgusting!! Wolfgang "She said,’That ain’t the way to have fun, son.’"

Response:

I think that the absolutely most frustrating place I have ever, ever, fished has to be the Y pool on the Swift below the Quabbin.

<snipped Bob, just got back from a morning on the stream…anyway the owner of the local fly shop was my partner and I brought him up to show him the Roffians and my new vise.  He read your post and muttered, "South Platte Brassy, that’ll do it."  I have no idea if it will, of course,  but I felt compelled to send his suggestion on…If your are at all interested and you don’t have the formula, I found it in one of my books, just back channel me and I will type it for you… Padishar Creel

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello: I think that the absolutely most frustrating place I have ever, ever, fished has to be the Y pool on the Swift below the Quabbin. Was there again yesterday from about 8 AM  to noon, and the Rainbows were so thick you literally had to watch where you stepped.  The density of them was just incredible; it was as if you were in a Hatchery. Naturally, as usual, I didn’t catch anything there.  Must be the world’s most discriminating trout. Not that the few others there did much better-I think one fellow caught one while i was trying. Tried just about everything in the Orvis catalog, from large to midges, dries, nymphys, etc. Even a streamer.  Anyway, was a most beautiful day. Any thoughts by anyone as to what (sometimes) works there, if anything-ever, would be MOST appreciated.

LOL! I’ve been fishing at the deflectors and have witnessed people storming down the trail from the Y-pool just a cussin’ and a fumin’ like you wouldn’t believe. By this time of year those fish will take you to school. I guess it can get the better of you if you aren’t careful… I’ve fished the Y on and off for 35 years. Caught my first big rainbow on a fly there when I was 13. Over the years I’ve had luck at the Y using small PT nymphs, RFSH nymphs, Sulfur dries (late evening hatch), beetles (especially Jassids using real JC nails), ants of various styles, and of course, micro-minutiae midge larva (ie: a #26 is a big one). If the fish aren’t actively feeding, I  still start out with a PT nymph and see what happens.  If the trout are into their "smutting" act, you can try bowling tiny gray or rust midge larva on a long 7x-8x tippet at the risers and strike on anything close. Tough on the eyes – I was much better at this when I was twenty years younger – but it will work. Less often successful, but a lot easier on the eyes, is to plop an ant or beetle down along the rocks on the far side of the tail-out… Fwiw, I used to watch the Old Man of the Y Pool stand for hours catching trout using a small light-blue-over-white streamer. Go figure… /daytripper

Response:

Hello: I think that the absolutely most frustrating place I have ever, ever, fished has to be the Y pool on the Swift below the Quabbin. Was there again yesterday from about 8 AM  to noon, and the Rainbows were so thick you literally had to watch where you stepped.  The density of them was just incredible; it was as if you were in a Hatchery. Naturally, as usual, I didn’t catch anything there.  Must be the world’s most discriminating trout. Not that the few others there did much better-I think one fellow caught one while i was trying. Tried just about everything in the Orvis catalog, from large to midges, dries, nymphys, etc. Even a streamer.  Anyway, was a most beautiful day. Any thoughts by anyone as to what (sometimes) works there, if anything-ever, would be MOST appreciated. Bob

Response:

Try another catalogue perhaps? TL MC — "In order to know what is possible one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello: I think that the absolutely most frustrating place I have ever, ever, fished has to be the Y pool on the Swift below the Quabbin. <SNIP Tried just about everything in the Orvis catalog, from large to midges, dries, nymphys, etc. Even a streamer.  Anyway, was a most beautiful day. Any thoughts by anyone as to what (sometimes) works there, if anything-ever, would be MOST appreciated. Bob

Response:

Question:

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Response:

Gee — camouflage suspenders — sounds like the perfect addition to my fishing wardrobe — I knew something was missing…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi my name is Jeff and I have these things for sale If you like what you read and would like a link to a picture please reply to sender 416.654.2612 To get your Canadian or US order in the mail or ready for pickup today..! SHAKESPEARE – $41.00 CAN plus shipping Factory  Balanced Alpha- KSP66 2M, Medium Action Rod,  6′6", 6-12lb line, twist lock and release reel design rod, & Alpha 2540 Graphite EZ Cast, bearing drive reel. FENWICK Eagle GLC EF867  Fly Rod, 7 weight 31/4oz. – $160.00 CAN 8′6"rod, includes protective rod sleeve and monogrammed nylon tubular case with zippered end  . TUNDRA Back Packs – $38.00 CAN two for $70.00 Water proof construction with water resistant zippers, large front pouch with latch and zipper. Bullet Shaped Lighters – $5.95 each or two for $10.95 plus shipping. (CAN) With key chain clip. Made from solid brass. These lighters are waterproof and have rubber ‘o’ rings at both ends. Refillable with liquid fuel. Very handy for emergency lights while hunting, fishing or hiking. Come in solid brass and chrome plate. Wildlife Fridge Magnets – Large lifelike animal fridge magnets. 3D design with airbrush finish. Items come in Bass, Pickerel(walleye), and White-tailed deer.  They Look so real on the fridge that you’ll be grabbing for your rod & reel (or your riffle) before your morning coffee..! $5.85 each CAN or  The Whole Wildlife Collection for $15.97 CAN plus shipping. Camouflage Suspenders – Button-0n type for pants or Clip-0n type for pants. 1 1/2" wide strap quality Canadian made. Real tree pattern. Blend in with the rest of your camouflage gear. $19.95 CAN plus shipping. If you like what you read and would like a link to a picture please reply to sender 416.654.2612 To get your Canadian or US order in the mail or ready for pickup today..!

Response:

I know what should be missing…….this thread from the —  The RodMaker(aka)  The Shadow……hehehe

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gee — camouflage suspenders — sounds like the perfect addition to my fishing wardrobe — I knew something was missing… Hi my name is Jeff and I have these things for sale If you like what you read and would like a link to a picture please reply to sender 416.654.2612 To get your Canadian or US order in the mail or ready for pickup today..! SHAKESPEARE – $41.00 CAN plus shipping Factory  Balanced Alpha- KSP66 2M, Medium Action Rod,  6′6", 6-12lb line, twist lock and release reel design rod, & Alpha 2540 Graphite EZ Cast, bearing drive reel. FENWICK Eagle GLC EF867  Fly Rod, 7 weight 31/4oz. – $160.00 CAN 8′6"rod, includes protective rod sleeve and monogrammed nylon tubular case with zippered end  . TUNDRA Back Packs – $38.00 CAN two for $70.00 Water proof construction with water resistant zippers, large front pouch with latch and zipper. Bullet Shaped Lighters – $5.95 each or two for $10.95 plus shipping. (CAN) With key chain clip. Made from solid brass. These lighters are waterproof and have rubber ‘o’ rings at both ends. Refillable with liquid fuel. Very handy for emergency lights while hunting, fishing or hiking. Come in solid brass and chrome plate. Wildlife Fridge Magnets – Large lifelike animal fridge magnets. 3D design with airbrush finish. Items come in Bass, Pickerel(walleye), and White-tailed deer.  They Look so real on the fridge that you’ll be grabbing for your rod & reel (or your riffle) before your morning coffee..! $5.85 each CAN or  The Whole Wildlife Collection for $15.97 CAN plus shipping. Camouflage Suspenders – Button-0n type for pants or Clip-0n type for pants. 1 1/2" wide strap quality Canadian made. Real tree pattern. Blend in with the rest of your camouflage gear. $19.95 CAN plus shipping. If you like what you read and would like a link to a picture please reply to sender 416.654.2612 To get your Canadian or US order in the mail or ready for pickup today..!

Response:

Question:

Anyone got a recommendation for a nice pourvoire no more than 6 hours from Montreal? I’d like to flyfish for trout in May. Some place nice…the wife is coming too. Thanks!

Response:

<<Anyone got a recommendation for a nice pourvoire no more than 6 hours from Montreal? Pourvoire?  Housekeeping cabins?   Dave LaCourse

Response:

Howdy from Quebec: I can recommend "Pourvoirie Real Masse" in St-Zenon. It is located 2 hours from Montreal. It is a great place for easy fishing an a happy wife. All the lakes are stocked. The food is fantastic. If you are interested I can give you more information. Could be a little late for reservation for may 1999… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Anyone got a recommendation for a nice pourvoire no more than 6 hours from Montreal? I’d like to flyfish for trout in May. Some place nice…the wife is coming too. Thanks!

Response:

dave –  i think "pourvoire" is one of them fancy words frequently used by Jim Roberts (a/k/a pamlico jim)  after an evening at the Villa Roma Bar, (jim begins talkin some kind of foreign language after a couple hours), ‘cept he pronounces it "pervoir"…as in…"damn, ya’ll, i think that there fella’s a pervoir"…you don’t want to put jim in any pervoir cabin, i assure you…  (seems there ought to be a pourvoire closer than 6 hours from montreal though) …course, it might be that the word really means "i see you pour forth" or "i watch you urinate", in which case the guy using it is a "pervoir"…but it might be that somebody simply misspelled the thing and meant "Pourboire", which is a tip for a good drink, which is just fine with me, and jim i suppose. (sorry to intrude, but the whiskey got me goin and i just couldn’t help myself…) jeff

Response:

Howdy from Quebec: I can recommend "Pourvoirie Real Masse" in St-Zenon. It is located 2 hours from Montreal. It is a great place for easy fishing an a happy wife. All the lakes are stocked. The food is fantastic. If you are interested I can give you more information. Could be a little late for reservation for may 1999… Anyone got a recommendation for a nice pourvoire no more than 6 hours from Montreal? I’d like to flyfish for trout in May. Some place nice…the wife is coming too. Thanks!

For those who dont know what "pourvoirie" means… "Outfitter"  Michel

Response:

well hell…if he’d said "pourvoirie", we’d all have understood…but he said "pourvoire"…aarrgg…don’t you just hate it when that happens… jeff

Response:

Got a web site I could look at? Also, I don’t like boats much. Can I use my waders here? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Howdy from Quebec: I can recommend "Pourvoirie Real Masse" in St-Zenon. It is located 2 hours from Montreal. It is a great place for easy fishing an a happy wife. All the lakes are stocked. The food is fantastic. If you are interested I can give you more information. Could be a little late for reservation for may 1999… Anyone got a recommendation for a nice pourvoire no more than 6 hours from Montreal? I’d like to flyfish for trout in May. Some place nice…the wife is coming too. Thanks!

Response:

With Real Masse you will be fishing in lakes. Fishing is from 8 am to 5 pm.  Traveling from lodge to lake is by golf cart…. they clean and pack  your fish… followed by a "gastronomic meal"…. This is the place where fishermen take there non fishing wife… not the wild canadian outback. If this is not what you are looking I can give you the phone number of "Sentier Chasse et Peche" (Or I could mail you a copy). "Sentier chasse et peche" is a hunting and fishing magazine here in Quebec. Finally I can also suggest to contact Orvis fly fishing shop in Montreal. They can provide information. They also organize fishing trips.   Boutique Salmo Nature (Orvis) 110 McGill Montreal 514-871-8447 Regards – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Got a web site I could look at? Also, I don’t like boats much. Can I use my waders here? Howdy from Quebec: I can recommend "Pourvoirie Real Masse" in St-Zenon. It is located 2 hours from Montreal. It is a great place for easy fishing an a happy wife. All the lakes are stocked. The food is fantastic. If you are interested I can give you more information. Could be a little late for reservation for may 1999… Anyone got a recommendation for a nice pourvoire no more than 6 hours from Montreal? I’d like to flyfish for trout in May. Some place nice…the wife is coming too. Thanks!

Response:

Question:

I jsut got the Mastery Series Bonefish line (sinking) which looks extra slippery. Does anyone have a suggestion on what knot to use to attach the butt section?

Response:

I use a quick double nail knot and then super glue it. I’ve been using this method on 9 through 13 wt. lines without any problems. This seems to be a standard method down here in South Florida. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I jsut got the Mastery Series Bonefish line (sinking) which looks extra slippery. Does anyone have a suggestion on what knot to use to attach the butt section?

Response:

I just used a single nail knot on mine and it has held through  several dozen tarpon and miscellaneous other fish.  I put a coat of cement over the top, primarily  to smooth it out.  There are probably better knots, but this one was good enough.  good luck. I jsut got the Mastery Series Bonefish line (sinking) which looks extra slippery. Does anyone have a suggestion on what knot to use to attach the butt section?

– Tim Ackerman "everyone lives downstream"

Response:

I jsut got the Mastery Series Bonefish line (sinking) which looks extra slippery. Does anyone have a suggestion on what knot to use to attach the butt section?

Is that a solid monocore or a braided monocore?  If it’s a solid core I would normally strip off a few inches of coating, tie an overhand knot in the core and slide the butt through it, then tie a nail knot with the butt to the core, being sure to snug it down against the overhand. George Anderson and I tested this knot on the Monic line last year and it seemed to be the only one that was 100%. Marshall

Response:

I just got the Mastery Series Bonefish line (sinking) which looks extra slippery. Does anyone have a suggestion on what knot to use to attach the butt section?

        A needle nail knot.  No matter how slippery the line may be,         that one’s not going to come loose.                                         Tom Hewlett-Packard Laboratories                     Phone: (970) 229-3531 External Research Program                          FAX: (970) 229-6198 3404 East Harmony Road Fort Collins, CO 80525-9599

Response:

I jsut got the Mastery Series Bonefish line (sinking) which looks extra slippery. Does anyone have a suggestion on what knot to use to attach the butt section?

We use the Albright knot to attach the butt section to the front of the flyline. On the rear of the line we fold it back to form a small loop. We then nail knot it twice to form a loop. We tie a Bimini Twist in the backing and loop that to the flyline. We use Goodyear Pliobond cement on all the knots to make them more streamline. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

Response:

Similar to Tom’s suggestion:  make a loop out of braided mono, slide it over the fly line, tie a nail knot with 10-12# mono at end of braided mono, then touch it with a drop of "super glue".  This will give you a loop for loop-to-loop connection and it won’t come off. Dave Cornue

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I jsut got the Mastery Series Bonefish line (sinking) which looks extra slippery. Does anyone have a suggestion on what knot to use to attach the butt section? Is that a solid monocore or a braided monocore?  If it’s a solid core I would normally strip off a few inches of coating, tie an overhand knot in the core and slide the butt through it, then tie a nail knot with the butt to the core, being sure to snug it down against the overhand. George Anderson and I tested this knot on the Monic line last year and it seemed to be the only one that was 100%. Marshall

What people call slime line are those clear no-core lines.  They look like a fat mono. Nix on the needle knot. I found with the mastery stillwater and only one nail knot that it squeezed the slime line until it weakened and slipped or broke.  I use and found a good and easy knot is to tie two or three nail knots in a row.  Just leave the tag line 12 inches long on the first one, cinch it tight, then tie another a half-inch up the line. Before you pull this one tight, slide it a bit up the line so it will all be smooth when you pull it tight. Repeat again if you wish. Mark Vinsel — http://www.lanminds.com/local/vinnie/gallery.html

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I jsut got the Mastery Series Bonefish line (sinking) which looks extra slippery. Does anyone have a suggestion on what knot to use to attach the butt section?

THE ALBERTSON KNOT. Mr. G.

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Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

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Question:

Hi, is anyone here in this group who can give me informations for flyfishing posibilities in Italy south of the alps? Thanks Hans-Peter Weigel D-28213 Bremen

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – says… Hi, is anyone here in this group who can give me informations for flyfishing posibilities in Italy south of the alps? Thanks Hans-Peter Weigel D-28213 Bremen All the Italians come to Slovenia to fish – Italy sucks. Mike

In order to avoid another politicly or culturely motivated bout of mud slinging, I think you should clarify whether you meant that the fishing in Italy sucks  :-(  or whether you meant that Italy as a country sucks. ) Not Italian, but more sensitive to the feelings of nationalism than ever. Mike Uetz

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says… Hi, is anyone here in this group who can give me informations for flyfishing posibilities in Italy south of the alps? Thanks Hans-Peter Weigel D-28213 Bremen

All the Italians come to Slovenia to fish – Italy sucks. Mike

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In order to avoid another politicly or culturely motivated bout of mud slinging, I think you should clarify whether you meant that the fishing in Italy sucks  :-(  or whether you meant that Italy as a country sucks. ) Not Italian, but more sensitive to the feelings of nationalism than ever. Mike Uetz

Of course I’m refering to the fishing – this is rec.outdoors.fishing.fly NOT italy.as.a.country.sucks Mike

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Question:

Hey John Fereira!    My news server has been out for three days and I just noticed on the news.groups that a CFV has started for flytying. Has it been posted here on ROFF?    This is the time folks! You don’t have to discuss it any more, just vote. I’ve sent in my vote and received a reply that it has been counted. Keep your feet dry, — lukn4fish Bob San Jose, Ca

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Hey John Fereira!   My news server has been out for three days and I just noticed on the news.groups that a CFV has started for flytying. Has it been posted here on ROFF?   This is the time folks! You don’t have to discuss it any more, just vote. I’ve sent in my vote and received a reply that it has been counted. Keep your feet dry,

Yes, it was posted here, in rec.outdoors.fishing, and in news.groups. I vote YES for rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying or I vote NO for rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying as the only line in the text of the message. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

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Question:

For those on  a limited budget, one approach is to buy a top grizzly neck and then buy some waterproof artist pens and color individual hackles as needed. Keeps down your early investment costs. Hope this helps. Dick Hubbard

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Being new to tying,I need some good advise as to which colors and types of hackle to invest in for dries, nymphs, and wets.

Hi, The four most popular colors in our area (CA) are as follows: 1. Brown 2. Grizzly 3. Dun 4. Creme Much has been said in favor of the beautiful genetic saddle hackles we have available today. I must agree they are wonderful to tie with. They do have one disadvantage though – there is a limited range of sizes present on any one saddle. For versatility, a good quality cape still has the edge.  I hope this helps.   Alan.   Alan Barnard   Kiene’s Fly Shop   Sacramento, Ca.   WWW Fly Tyer   http://www.ns.net/~barnard

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(Richard Hubbard) writes: For those on  a limited budget, one approach is to buy a top grizzly neck and then buy some waterproof artist pens and color individual hackles as needed.

Been there, done that, Pantone markers work real well.  Lay them on a piece of paper towel to help with absorbancy and protect your table.                                               Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Schools Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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Great idea Dan! I’ve done this to my hopper and caddis patterns to get some contrast.   Never thought about "pantoning" hackles" especially when you’re on the road.  It’s alot easier to carry some markers than our valuable hackles. Thanks! +Mike V.

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Question:

There are a lot of public access sites on the Au Sable, including all 3 branches (Mainstream, North Branch, and South Branch).  In addition to state property, Trout Unlimited has two pieces of donated property in the "flies only" stretch.  One is north of Stephan’s Bridge, on the north side of the rive, called Guides’ Rest.  The other is further west and just north of Wakeley Bridge (also on the north side) near the Thunderbird Club.       The single best source of information on the AuSable comes from the river guide that is produced for the river by the Challenge Chapter of Trout Unlimited.  In addition to maps, it includes an emergence chart for the major fly hatches.       Your Email address indicates you are on the UM campus, as I am.  You can buy one of these guides at MacGregor’s (on Main Street), or I will be happy to let you look at mine if they’re out.  Mike Traugott     – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Can anyone supply me with a few public access sites on the AuSable River System? Any proven patterns are more than welcome.

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there is a great book called "12 Classic Trout Streams of Michigan" at Border’s in Ann Arbor and at Macgregor’s, that lists access sites to the Au Sable and other streams that is really good information.

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I usually fish from Keystone Landing to Stephan Bridge on the main stream.   I haven’t had the chance to fish the south branch yet, but i think i will concentrate on it this summer.  Most of it is "match the hatch" water.  It is also a very picturesque stream, with sweeping cedars in the water providing excellent cover.  P.S. I don’t consider myself an expert on this stream, but I am just telling you what I know.  There is a "hatch hotline" you can call to see what the latest conditions are.  It’s updated everyday one the weather starts warming up, but currently it just contains general winter conditions.  the number is (517) 348-7108.  very helpful.

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