Question:

Sounds like a FANTASTIC day on the water,  great report jh

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter Charles writes: <great report/info snipped Plans are in the offing for the next trip. Ok, I can’t make it tomorrow, but Friday is open!  d;o) Got home after an 8 hour drive (512 miles) in pouring rain, but every time I thought of those fish, I began to smile. If you’ve  fished with me, you know I don’t move around too well.  Legs and feet are very sore, but hotdamn, ya get an 18 pound salmon on a fly rod and he begins one (1) run that takes you well into your backing, ya hafta fall/leap out of the boat and run after the damn thing.  It ain’t fair.  But, is sure is heart thumping and adrenaline pumping.  And then, the bastid comes running back at you; once your get your line all wound up and clear,  he’s off on another run  into the backing   It is definitely weird to be running downstream in knee-deep water, with your flyrod high and see a fish jump 250 feet in front of you and realize that you are connected to that fish with a hundred feet of line, a hundred and forty feet of backing , 10 feet of 10 pound tippet and a fly that you *know* is gonna go straight any second.  Multiply that by 4 and you have an idea of the day Peter and I had on the Saugeen. I know where Peter lives.  I’ll be back, with a 10 foot 7 weight *with a fighting butt*, a Lamson 3.5 large arbor filled with wf line and as much backing as it can hold.  If not next month, Peter, count on late April/early May.  And this time we open the 18 year old stuff.  <G Dave

Response:

(snip) It is definitely weird to be running downstream in knee-deep water, with your flyrod high and see a fish jump 250 feet in front of you and realize that you are connected to that fish with a hundred feet of line, a hundred and forty feet of backing , 10 feet of 10 pound tippet

(snip)     that whole thing is just crazy.  just freaking crazy.  i can’t imagine such an experience. yfitons wayno

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -wayno writes: (snip) It is definitely weird to be running downstream in knee-deep water, with your flyrod high and see a fish jump 250 feet in front of you and realize that you are connected to that fish with a hundred feet of line, a hundred and forty feet of backing , 10 feet of 10 pound tippet (snip)    that whole thing is just crazy.  just freaking crazy.  i can’t imagine such an experience. yfitons wayno

Save a day next may.  You can sleep in the rv.  I’ll let you use my 8 weight *with* the fighting butt.  I wanna see your scrawny ass runnin down the middle of this water.  <G Louie

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   that whole thing is just crazy.  just freaking crazy.  i can’t imagine such an experience. yfitons wayno

There’s a solution for that . . . . Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Peter Charles writes:    that whole thing is just crazy.  just freaking crazy.  i can’t imagine such an experience. yfitons wayno There’s a solution for that . . . . Peter

He’s used to catching iddy biddy trout the size of his dick, Peter.  He wouldn’t dream of going up and fishing with us.  The largest rod he has is a 2 weight – we’d have to loan him equipment and probably teach him how to cast it.  <seg  This water is meant for PJ and combat fishing. Louie (who hopes insults will move his scrawny ass)

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Peter He’s used to catching iddy biddy trout the size of his dick, Peter.  He wouldn’t dream of going up and fishing with us.  The largest rod he has is a 2 weight – we’d have to loan him equipment and probably teach him how to cast it. <seg  This water is meant for PJ and combat fishing. Louie (who hopes insults will move his scrawny ass)

That small eh?  In that case, I would think a 0 weight would be more appropriate.  If he came, we’d probably need a bosun’s chair just to lower him out of the boat.  BTW, think he can even lift an 8 wt.?  If he ever hooked a salmon, he’d probably throw the rod overboard from sheer fright.    (how am I doin’?) Peter

Response:

It’s late, I’m beat, the pirate is whacked – this TR is gonna be short. Up at 4:30 and, on the road at 5:15, arrived at the store at 6:00, on the water by 8:00 and home by 9:00pm.   Louie before the trip, "I’m gonna take my 6 wt."   Told the Pirate not to bother with his vest or the 6 wt.   Well, we’re at the put-in and John Valk (owner/guide) is going "Nyet" to the 6 wt.  Out comes the 8 wt.  Now I’m looking at Louie and the fighting butt on the 8 wt. is missing, "I took it off." he says.  Silly boy.  By the end of the day, there’s no vest, the 6 wt. never left its tube and he has a hole in his sternum where he had stuck the reel seat on repeated occasions. Best shot of the day – watching Louie’s face as his backing rapidly disappears.  Second best shot of the day, seeing Louie running 100 yds downstream trying to retrieve his backing – after vaulting out of the drift boat. Anyway, a bunch of very feisty chinook was had and all returned in one piece (including the anglers).   Details at 6:00. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Anyway, a bunch of very feisty chinook was had and all returned in one piece (including the anglers).   Sounds great.  Were there any steelhead in as yet ? Remove "XX" from address

We saw a few but the real run hasn’t gone going yet.  We need colder temps and a *lot* more water. As John fussed with the boat and stuff, there were a bunch of salmon playing in the shallows.  I had a poke at them with the big stick but no joy.  With that experience, I put it away and took out a single hander. Dave got out a rarely used Orvis 8 wt. with a big sinktip that proved to be a difficult line to use in the low water conditions. Dave, by his own admission, was unsure what this fishing would be about and when we found a pod of about 20 salmon cavorting about, he had two silver dollars for eyeballs.   John has a particular way of doing a wet fly swing (he likes the fly oriented north-south – I tend to a broadside presentation) but we both used John’s technique.  We swim the fly in front of the pod and hope that a big, pissed-off male will charge out and nail it.  Frequently, we were not disappointed and Dave got a very lively fish out of this pod within a couple of minutes. Dave hooked up first (a fish probably in the low teens) which promptly peeled off all of his line and a good quantity of backing.  It was a great intro to Saugeen salmon fishing.  He eventually ended up about 100 yards downstream where the fish was netted. A couple of points about these fish.  Credit River salmon are stocked and live in Lake Ontario whereas the Saugeen fish are naturals and live in Lake Huron.  You cannot imagine how much difference this results in.  Saugeen fish, even 70 miles upstream, are fairly bright and in excellent shape.  Credit River stockers are only a few miles up stream and already black and rotting.  The Saugeen fish takes off at a high rate of knots when released, even after a long fight.  He’s usually back cavorting in a minute or two.  Credit River fish often roll over an die upon release after a half-hearted fight.  John told us a story of catching the same chinook three times in succession and it fought just as hard the third time as it did the first. The Saugeen was especially low and clear so the fish were always very obvious.  We drifted over a few steelhead, loads of huge smallies, some browns, red horse suckers, carp, and a few unidentified.  The colours were especially bright in the high sun, and with the warm day, it was a very pleasant trip all-round. Final results were something like four fish each landed and multiple hookups (including one double).  Most of the fish were in the teens but one of mine was over 20 lbs.  We saw and hooked a few bruisers that ran over 30.  All of them took off in long runs.  Some of the fish were quite aerobatic with jumps, lunges and tumbles that often resulted in them being wrapped up in line.  One of mine began to fight funny after a few minutes. On initial hookup, the fish stuck his head out of the water with an open mouthed head shake that told of a fair hook.  By the time we got him landed, the fly was still in his mouth but he had about five winds of line around one fin.  Dave had one where the fly started off in it’s mouth and ended up in it’s tail.  We figured it too got wrapped up in line and then the fly came loose only to reattach. I’ll have a trip on my site by next week with pics that will give some indication of the river and the fish.   It was fun as always having the Pirate up and Thanksgiving dinner will long be remembered for the gales of laughter and the sore sides we had in the morning. Plans are in the offing for the next trip. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Peter Charles writes: <great report/info snipped Plans are in the offing for the next trip.

Don’t wait too long. Ok, I can’t make it tomorrow, but Friday is open!  d;o)

At the Salmon River, Saugeen next week. Got home after an 8 hour drive (512 miles) in pouring rain, but every time I thought of those fish, I began to smile.

probably brighter than those bright blue Audi headlights. If you’ve  fished with me, you know I don’t move around too well.  Legs and feet are very sore, but hotdamn, ya get an 18 pound salmon on a fly rod and he begins one (1) run that takes you well into your backing, ya hafta fall/leap out of the boat and run after the damn thing.  It ain’t fair.  But, is sure is heart thumping and adrenaline pumping.  And then, the bastid comes running back at you; once your get your line all wound up and clear,  he’s off on another run  into the backing   It is definitely weird to be running downstream in knee-deep water, with your flyrod high and see a fish jump 250 feet in front of you and realize that you are connected to that fish with a hundred feet of line, a hundred and forty feet of backing , 10 feet of 10 pound tippet and a fly that you *know* is gonna go straight any second.  Multiply that by 4 and you have an idea of the day Peter and I had on the Saugeen.  

It was a memorable day fer sure.   I know where Peter lives.  I’ll be back, with a 10 foot 7 weight *with a fighting butt*, a Lamson 3.5 large arbor filled with wf line and as much backing as it can hold. If not next month, Peter, count on late April/early May.  And this time we open the 18 year old stuff.  <G

You mean, like again! Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Peter Charles writes:

<great report/info snipped Plans are in the offing for the next trip.

Ok, I can’t make it tomorrow, but Friday is open!  d;o) Got home after an 8 hour drive (512 miles) in pouring rain, but every time I thought of those fish, I began to smile. If you’ve  fished with me, you know I don’t move around too well.  Legs and feet are very sore, but hotdamn, ya get an 18 pound salmon on a fly rod and he begins one (1) run that takes you well into your backing, ya hafta fall/leap out of the boat and run after the damn thing.  It ain’t fair.  But, is sure is heart thumping and adrenaline pumping.  And then, the bastid comes running back at you; once your get your line all wound up and clear,  he’s off on another run  into the backing   It is definitely weird to be running downstream in knee-deep water, with your flyrod high and see a fish jump 250 feet in front of you and realize that you are connected to that fish with a hundred feet of line, a hundred and forty feet of backing , 10 feet of 10 pound tippet and a fly that you *know* is gonna go straight any second.  Multiply that by 4 and you have an idea of the day Peter and I had on the Saugeen.   I know where Peter lives.  I’ll be back, with a 10 foot 7 weight *with a fighting butt*, a Lamson 3.5 large arbor filled with wf line and as much backing as it can hold.  If not next month, Peter, count on late April/early May.  And this time we open the 18 year old stuff.  <G Dave

Response:

Sounds like a great trip. Sight fishing for big fish, can’t beat that! Did you catch anything other than the Chinooks?

Nope, we were hoping for steelhead but the conditions were too warm and the water too low.  We saw lots of smallies but with the low, clear water, we saw them when we spooked them.   Not sure I’d call the the Saugeen fish "natural" but the same differences you found here between the stocked and streambred salmon also applies to trout. Even though the genetics might be the same, the stocked fish act differently even after being in the wild for a considerable time. Willi

I used the term ‘natural’ to mean naturally reproducing.  While these chinook exhibit superior characteristics as compared to their stocked cousins, I haven’t seem the same difference between natural and stocked browns on the Grand.  That may have something to do with how the Grand stocking program is managed. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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I thought that Ontario had stopped stocking chinook altogether, but I guess not, eh ?   The strain of chinook used for stocking is one that does not move in until quite late.  I’ve read that what has happened in some cases where natural reproduction has been established is that over generations the salmon have tended to come into rivers earlier and earlier prior to spawning.  It sounds like the Saugeen is one of them.

I’ve always understood that Credit River chinook were stocked as the prospects for natural reproduction were poor.  John confirmed that they were stockers. I’ve not heard about earlier runs but with the Saugeen being farther north, an earlier run is to be expected.  There’s no question that they are much healthier fish. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

      Anyway, a bunch of very feisty chinook was had and all returned in one   piece (including the anglers).       Sounds great.  Were there any steelhead in as yet ?     Remove "XX" from address       A couple of points about these fish.  Credit River salmon are stocked   and live in Lake Ontario whereas the Saugeen fish are naturals and   live in Lake Huron.  You cannot imagine how much difference this   results in.  Saugeen fish, even 70 miles upstream, are fairly bright   and in excellent shape.  Credit River stockers are only a few miles up   stream and already black and rotting.  The Saugeen fish takes off at a   high rate of knots when released, even after a long fight.  He’s   usually back cavorting in a minute or two.  Credit River fish often   roll over an die upon release after a half-hearted fight.  John told   us a story of catching the same chinook three times in succession and   it fought just as hard the third time as it did the first. Sounds like a great trip. Sight fishing for big fish, can’t beat that! Did you catch anything other than the Chinooks? Not sure I’d call the the Saugeen fish "natural" but the same differences you found here between the stocked and streambred salmon also applies to trout. Even though the genetics might be the same, the stocked fish act differently even after being in the wild for a considerable time. Willi

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Question:

The "real" answer would of course come from what kind of race would they run?  A sprint would of course favor the lighter/quicker boat. Unless of course I could get my mitts on that Champ.  Give me the same amount of money the guy spent on the Yamahammer and I could make that 203 leave him gagging on exhaust fumes from the start.  (Hello, Mr. Raypair?) Given the situation, I’d much rather prefer the 203 over the Skeet, tournament situations dictate performance over sometimes less than pristine conditions, and that 203 will leave the Skeet in rough water every time. But that’s what makes horse races fun to watch, right?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You would appreciate this, because the topic came up because a group of us were discussing two boats from our club that everyone recognizes as being real fliers.  Boat #1 is a Skeeter ZX190 with a modified Yamaha 150 and boat #2 is a Champion 203 with a Mercury 250. That Skeeter gets on plane so fast that it is absolutely an amazing site and is at top speed like "Right Now".  There isn’t a boat on the water in our area that can compete with that boats hole shot. That Champion gets up ok (like normal) but by the time it is up and moving that Skeeter is about a football field ahead.  Once the Champion gets moving watch out because that thing literally flys.  It is so fast that it closes that football field gap fairly quickly. These two have never raced, and probably never will (they are anglers not race car drivers).  The closest they have come to it is during tournaments when they are launched one after the other and they are running to the same area.    During launch there is a 10 second or more gap between boats.  So the debate has always been there.  But that Skeeter blows every 225 off the water regardless (skeeters, stratos, gamblers, bat cats, rangers, nitros, johnsons, yamahas, mercurys, evinrude, etc.).  I hate to see that Skeeter pull in to the launch when we are fishing certain lakes because I know this individual will be going to the same areas of the lake as I will be going (we have very similar fishing styles) because he will be there at least five minutes before me.  That big ole Champion is never going to be where I am because this individual fishes the skinniest water he can find looking Mr. Largemouth.  Where I focus more on Smallies when I know the smallie population has similar size.  If not, I go for the largemouth.  But I can tell you I watch both of these boats fly by me and from my observation that 250 merc Champion is the fastest once moving, but that Skeeter is the fastest in a mile or less distance.  But the Skeeter is a smaller lighter boat and so I wondered how these two would compare on the same boat, setup identically. — www.yessssports.com YESSS! Sports – Your Fishing Information Source! Freshwater & Saltwater Tackle & Gear Instant Tournament News!

Response:

I would bet on the 250 for the hole shot and up to maybe 4000 RPM.  4-5000 would probably be a wash.  The tweeked 150 would probably get it’s extra horsepower via RPM and at top end, it wins.  Remember a horseposer is 550 pounds moved 1 foot in one second.  So It is a function of torque times RPM. The torque is greater on the bigger engine, but the RPM is lower for the same torque on a bigger engine. Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just to be the devil’s advocate, I would have to say that this question is unanswerable. There are too many variables. Horsepower and weight alone don’t provide enough information. What about the power curve and torque output? But, if I was betting, I’d bet on the 150hp tuned to 250hp… — Citizen Fisherman If you took two identical 20 foot boats, found two drivers that weighed the same, but on boat #1 you mounted a 150 that was ported, polished, blueprinted and balanced so that it was generating 250hp and on boat #2 you mounted a stock 250 hp motor.  So both boats are identical in every aspect except for the engines.  Which boat would be faster out of hole?  0-60? and at the end of a 1 mile run? In my opinion, boat #1 with the modified 150 would be much faster in every category because even though they are both rated at 250 hp, the modified 150 would be operating at a much higher RPM and thus generating more power output where it counts, at the prop. There nothing big on the line, just a "Big O’, I TOLD YOU SO!" bragging rights. Craig — www.yessssports.com YESSS! Sports – Your Fishing Information Source! Freshwater & Saltwater Tackle & Gear Instant Tournament News!

Response:

Craig, You would need a little more information bubba. It would depend on several factors before I could make a judgment. First, what 150 would you start with, and compared to what 250? Some 150’s lend themselves to modification better than others.  "Porting" and "Polishing" is a misleading term with a two stroke engine.  Example: a chrome bore Merc is really difficult to do much port work with, while a Yamaha does lend itself greatly to machine work. I’ve gotten close to 250 out of both Mercs and Yamahas, and they were two completely different motors in the way they ran.  Just judging them on bottom end acceleration from a dead stop, the Yamaha would have eaten the Merc alive, but the Merc would have caught it soon enough. What hull you put these motors on would again make a big difference, the cubic inches and power curve built into the stock ECU’s of the 250’s would probably lend themselves to a quicker hole shot, but again a hard call to make sitting here. Now, if it were me, and I had that "150" on a light 17′ boat which was rated for that 150, we’ve got something that works pretty well….

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you took two identical 20 foot boats, found two drivers that weighed the same, but on boat #1 you mounted a 150 that was ported, polished, blueprinted and balanced so that it was generating 250hp and on boat #2 you mounted a stock 250 hp motor.  So both boats are identical in every aspect except for the engines.  Which boat would be faster out of hole?  0-60? and at the end of a 1 mile run? In my opinion, boat #1 with the modified 150 would be much faster in every category because even though they are both rated at 250 hp, the modified 150 would be operating at a much higher RPM and thus generating more power output where it counts, at the prop. There nothing big on the line, just a "Big O’, I TOLD YOU SO!" bragging rights. Craig — www.yessssports.com YESSS! Sports – Your Fishing Information Source! Freshwater & Saltwater Tackle & Gear Instant Tournament News!

Response:

You would appreciate this, because the topic came up because a group of us were discussing two boats from our club that everyone recognizes as being real fliers.  Boat #1 is a Skeeter ZX190 with a modified Yamaha 150 and boat #2 is a Champion 203 with a Mercury 250. That Skeeter gets on plane so fast that it is absolutely an amazing site and is at top speed like "Right Now".  There isn’t a boat on the water in our area that can compete with that boats hole shot. That Champion gets up ok (like normal) but by the time it is up and moving that Skeeter is about a football field ahead.  Once the Champion gets moving watch out because that thing literally flys.  It is so fast that it closes that football field gap fairly quickly. These two have never raced, and probably never will (they are anglers not race car drivers).  The closest they have come to it is during tournaments when they are launched one after the other and they are running to the same area.    During launch there is a 10 second or more gap between boats.  So the debate has always been there.  But that Skeeter blows every 225 off the water regardless (skeeters, stratos, gamblers, bat cats, rangers, nitros, johnsons, yamahas, mercurys, evinrude, etc.).  I hate to see that Skeeter pull in to the launch when we are fishing certain lakes because I know this individual will be going to the same areas of the lake as I will be going (we have very similar fishing styles) because he will be there at least five minutes before me.  That big ole Champion is never going to be where I am because this individual fishes the skinniest water he can find looking Mr. Largemouth.  Where I focus more on Smallies when I know the smallie population has similar size.  If not, I go for the largemouth.  But I can tell you I watch both of these boats fly by me and from my observation that 250 merc Champion is the fastest once moving, but that Skeeter is the fastest in a mile or less distance.  But the Skeeter is a smaller lighter boat and so I wondered how these two would compare on the same boat, setup identically. — www.yessssports.com YESSS! Sports – Your Fishing Information Source! Freshwater & Saltwater Tackle & Gear Instant Tournament News!

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The hush project from Harley is the new V-Rod engine.  It went public this summer. — Bill Pentheny Adams Co. (Pa) Bassmasters Chesapeake Bay Retriever Relief & Rescue www.cbrrescue.org

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Warren my man, Bass & Walleye had an article last year, and I will try and find it (month) about porting and polishing a 150 and with that alone it was pushing close to 225 hp., and they said with one more simple thing – and I can’t remember off the top of my head, it would be pushing 235 hp.  I was told that 300 hp wouldn’t be possible. But I was also told by this same mechanic that a 250 could be made to push 500 hp or more.  I won’t mention this gentleman’s name, but he was part of the Jeff Gordon’s Race Team and now is working on a hush project for Harley Davison and his brother is a member of this NG.  As I was told, if you can dream it, he can make it a reality (if you have enoough money!) — www.yessssports.com YESSS! Sports – Your Fishing Information Source! Freshwater & Saltwater Tackle & Gear Instant Tournament News!

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The stock boat would probably be stronger out of the hole. RichZ

Question:

Yeah, count me in you shadster! Opie needs all the hats he can get, Chris, because he doesn’t have any hair. Sign him up for a half dozen. If you’re doing t-shirts sign him up for another half dozen XXL to cover his gut.

Damn, that hurt to the scalp.  Can’t get to the bone through all these layers o’ fat! Opie  –Planning for the Past–

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Hi All, Maybe some would want a hat even if they can’t make it? — Bill Kiene

Ain’t that what this is all about?  I hope I’m not expected to show-up to receive my hat.  Hat just don’t seem worth the price of air-fare. Opie  –Planning for the Past–

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I am doing some preliminary investigation into embroidering some high quality fishing hats to memorialize the Sacramento Shad Fish-Out Clave. What I need for now is the approximate amount of hats required for this Clave.  So far it looks like we have about 10 – 12? Roffians signed up, but I know that some of the non-participants will want a hat as a souvenir (or at least I think so).

PC, I’ll need three. Danl Still can’t believe I’m contemplating flying somewhere for the express purpose of shadding!!!! AAAAArrrrrrrggghhhh…..

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Still can’t believe I’m contemplating flying somewhere for the express purpose of shadding!!!! AAAAArrrrrrrggghhhh…..

So you’re actually contemplating coming to the shad fishout, Dan’l? Cool! BTW, these are American Shad, not the puny, slimey Hickory Shad you remember from your misspent youth. There are also striped bass in the American River. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Yeah, count me in you shadster!

Opie needs all the hats he can get, Chris, because he doesn’t have any hair. Sign him up for a half dozen. If you’re doing t-shirts sign him up for another half dozen XXL to cover his gut. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

I am doing some preliminary investigation into embroidering some high quality fishing hats to memorialize the Sacramento Shad Fish-Out Clave. What I need for now is the approximate amount of hats required for this Clave.  So far it looks like we have about 10 – 12? Roffians signed up, but I know that some of the non-participants will want a hat as a souvenir (or at least I think so).

Yo! Sign me up for a hat, please. /daytripper

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embroidering some high quality fishing hats to memorialize the Sacramento Shad Fish-Out Clave. What I need for now is the approximate amount of hats required for this Clave.

Count me in for one of the caps. Big Dale

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am doing some preliminary investigation into embroidering some high quality fishing hats to memorialize the Sacramento Shad Fish-Out Clave. What I need for now is the approximate amount of hats required for this Clave.  So far it looks like we have about 10 – 12? Roffians signed up, but I know that some of the non-participants will want a hat as a souvenir (or at least I think so). The more I get done, the cheaper each one becomes.  Let me know if you will want one and I will run a total here at my homestead.  Legal Disclaimer — remember this is for an estimate you will not be contractually held to receiving an Official Clave Fishing Hat if you ask for one at this point.  I just need rough numbers. —- Padishar Creel "Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft…and the only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor." –  Wernher von Braun

As requested earlier, I’d like one! –Walt

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I know that some of the non-participants will want a hat as a souvenir (or at least I think so).

Yeah, I need another fishing hat like Custer needed another Indian (oops, Native American).   But sure, put me down for one. Joe F.

Response:

As requested earlier, I’d like one!

Me too. — Charlie…

Response:

Hi All, Maybe some would want a hat even if they can’t make it? — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am doing some preliminary investigation into embroidering some high quality fishing hats to memorialize the Sacramento Shad Fish-Out Clave. What I need for now is the approximate amount of hats required for this Clave.  So far it looks like we have about 10 – 12? Roffians signed up, but I know that some of the non-participants will want a hat as a souvenir (or at least I think so). The more I get done, the cheaper each one becomes.  Let me know if you will want one and I will run a total here at my homestead.  Legal Disclaimer — remember this is for an estimate you will not be contractually held to receiving an Official Clave Fishing Hat if you ask for one at this point. I just need rough numbers. —- Padishar Creel "Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft…and the only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor." –  Wernher von Braun

Response:

As requested earlier, I’d like one! Me too.

Ditto. Wolfgang

Response:

Me too… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, Maybe some would want a hat even if they can’t make it? — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com I am doing some preliminary investigation into embroidering some high quality fishing hats to memorialize the Sacramento Shad Fish-Out Clave. What I need for now is the approximate amount of hats required for this Clave.  So far it looks like we have about 10 – 12? Roffians signed up, but I know that some of the non-participants will want a hat as a souvenir (or at least I think so). The more I get done, the cheaper each one becomes.  Let me know if you will want one and I will run a total here at my homestead.  Legal Disclaimer — remember this is for an estimate you will not be contractually held to receiving an Official Clave Fishing Hat if you ask for one at this point. I just need rough numbers. —- Padishar Creel "Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft…and the only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor." –  Wernher von Braun

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I am doing some preliminary investigation into embroidering some high quality fishing hats to memorialize the Sacramento Shad Fish-Out Clave. What I need for now is the approximate amount of hats required for this Clave.  So far it looks like we have about 10 – 12? Roffians signed up, but I know that some of the non-participants will want a hat as a souvenir (or at least I think so). The more I get done, the cheaper each one becomes.  Let me know if you will want one and I will run a total here at my homestead.  Legal Disclaimer — remember this is for an estimate you will not be contractually held to receiving an Official Clave Fishing Hat if you ask for one at this point.  I just need rough numbers. —- Padishar Creel "Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft…and the only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor." –  Wernher von Braun

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Yeah, count me in you shadster! Opie  –Planning for the Past–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am doing some preliminary investigation into embroidering some high quality fishing hats to memorialize the Sacramento Shad Fish-Out Clave. What I need for now is the approximate amount of hats required for this Clave.  So far it looks like we have about 10 – 12? Roffians signed up, but I know that some of the non-participants will want a hat as a souvenir (or at least I think so). The more I get done, the cheaper each one becomes.  Let me know if you will want one and I will run a total here at my homestead.  Legal Disclaimer — remember this is for an estimate you will not be contractually held to receiving an Official Clave Fishing Hat if you ask for one at this point. I just need rough numbers. —- Padishar Creel "Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft…and the only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor." –  Wernher von Braun

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Question:

I’ve been told that the current up-and-coming pack animal is the lowly goat. I’m not kidding. I understand that the forest service uses them as pack animals in Idaho. They are very sure footed and can eat anything. They gotta be cheap, and you can eat them in a pinch or when you’re done with them.                         Dale Lindsley – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve got a really screwed up knee and backpacking is getting very difficult. I’ve seen various pack animals on trails and I’m wondering about Llamas… what do they cost, what kind of care do they require, and what amount of pasture/property do they need? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Jim in Oregon The road goes ever, ever on…..

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I’ve been told that the current up-and-coming pack animal is the lowly goat. I’m not kidding. I understand that the forest service uses them as pack animals in Idaho. They are very sure footed and can eat anything. They gotta be cheap, and you can eat them in a pinch or when you’re done with them.

        That was in 1995 in the Sawtooth NRA.  Might have been tried other places as well.   Didn’t work out and when I was back this summer, the goats were history.  Basically, they don’t do well when the person changes from trip to trip.  They take well to one owner and that’s pretty much it.  Not a good behavior pattern for a stock animal.  That was pretty much the behavior they had when my folks raised goats.  It always took some time before they could deal with changes in owners and routine.  The habit of eating anything was detrimental as well since they kept eating things which poisoned them. They are sure footed, we had to put the corner braces on the fences on the outside, othewise they’d walk up the brace and be gone over the fence.   Usually not far, we’d find them in the rhodendron – flat out with blue protruding tongue – take ‘em to the vet for the antidote. They did make good bar-b-que though.  Meat was a bit tough but I’ve never seen any that a pressure cooker couldn’t soften. Linux.  Isn’t he is the character that drags the blanket around all the time?

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That is a training issue I take mine up to the snow every spring. They carry the X country skis up. The group skis down and one person leads the llamas back down. Como Say Llamas www.llamapacker.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim- Funny you should mention Llamas, especially in Oregon. I was up on North Sister this weekend with an extremely experienced climbing friend. Anyway, he told me that one time, forget how long ago, he was up there and ran into a group of folks that had rented some Llamas for the weekend for just your purpose. The intent was to take them into Camp Lake by South Sister. Anyway, they got a ways up the trail and the Llamas absolutely REFUSED to cross snow. They tried and tried and tried, and couldn’t get them to cross snow. They waited a day and tried again. Nope. Not happening. If any of your trips involve snow, I’d check into this. Maybe it was just a training issue, maybe not. As far as I know, Llamas come from snow country but maybe if they’ve never seen it, they don’t want nothin’ to do with it. — Matt Jarvis addressing. I’ve got a really screwed up knee and backpacking is getting very difficult. I’ve seen various pack animals on trails and I’m wondering about Llamas… what do they cost, what kind of care do they require, and what amount of pasture/property do they need? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Jim in Oregon The road goes ever, ever on…..

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And some won’t cross large puddles if they can’t see the bottom. Obviously you want a trained one. Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim- …. Anyway, they got a ways up the trail and the Llamas absolutely REFUSED to cross snow. They tried and tried and tried, and couldn’t get them to cross snow…..

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I just rented 2 llamas that hiked from Yosemite to Tahoe 153 miles. they crossed every obstical imaginable. They carried 90#s each and ranged from 8 to 12 miles a day with 1 lay over day. Como Say Llamas www.llamapacker.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And some won’t cross large puddles if they can’t see the bottom. Obviously you want a trained one. Mike Jim- …. Anyway, they got a ways up the trail and the Llamas absolutely REFUSED to cross snow. They tried and tried and tried, and couldn’t get them to cross snow…..

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Jim- Funny you should mention Llamas, especially in Oregon. I was up on North Sister this weekend with an extremely experienced climbing friend. Anyway, he told me that one time, forget how long ago, he was up there and ran into a group of folks that had rented some Llamas for the weekend for just your purpose. The intent was to take them into Camp Lake by South Sister. Anyway, they got a ways up the trail and the Llamas absolutely REFUSED to cross snow. They tried and tried and tried, and couldn’t get them to cross snow. They waited a day and tried again. Nope. Not happening. If any of your trips involve snow, I’d check into this. Maybe it was just a training issue, maybe not. As far as I know, Llamas come from snow country but maybe if they’ve never seen it, they don’t want nothin’ to do with it. — Matt Jarvis addressing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve got a really screwed up knee and backpacking is getting very difficult. I’ve seen various pack animals on trails and I’m wondering about Llamas… what do they cost, what kind of care do they require, and what amount of pasture/property do they need? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Jim in Oregon The road goes ever, ever on…..

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Llamas are great on the trail, but you need special expertise to handle them.  They will eat anything that grows along side the trail. Including plants that will kill them.  The Mt. LeConte Lodge in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park is stocked via Llamas.  The handlers take them up the same trail three times a week, and know all the danger areas by heart.  Earlier this spring, a slide made their normal route up the Trillium Gap trail impassable, so they re-routed up Bullhead.  One llama keeled over dead right on the trail, and two others died back at the ranch.  They believe it was from rhoderdendron poisoning. Since then, they started using modified muzzels to prevent re-occurance. Also, even though they are easier on the trails than horses, many National Parks do not recognize this fact. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve got a really screwed up knee and backpacking is getting very difficult. I’ve seen various pack animals on trails and I’m wondering about Llamas… what do they cost, what kind of care do they require, and what amount of pasture/property do they need? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Jim in Oregon The road goes ever, ever on…..

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You might check into goats. Keith – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve got a really screwed up knee and backpacking is getting very difficult. I’ve seen various pack animals on trails and I’m wondering about Llamas… what do they cost, what kind of care do they require, and what amount of pasture/property do they need? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Jim in Oregon The road goes ever, ever on…..

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You might check into goats. Keith

     FWIW..  I was reading a book about flyfishing mountain lakes by a well-known (to fishermen, at least) author.  There was an entire chapter about pack animals.  The author said goats were the best, horses worst, and llamas and all others in between. — Yellowstone TRs:  http://www.cis.ksu.edu/~dha5446/hiking/yellowstone/

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In defence of the llama….They only spit at each other over food or females…unless poorly trained and abused they never spit at people.  In the back country they do less damage than a pair of hiking boots, due to their padded feet.They can be turned loose when at camp and do about the same damage as a deer. Como Say Llamas Llama packing and llama rentals www.llamapacker.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Know they spit when annoyed so duck a lot.One golf course uses them as caddies for the golf bags.Quite a sight-men wearing lime green pants and mauve and chartreuse shirts following a llama that poops all over the place-can’t quite housetrain them. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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Know they spit when annoyed so duck a lot.One golf course uses them as caddies for the golf bags.Quite a sight-men wearing lime green pants and mauve and chartreuse shirts following a llama that poops all over the place-can’t quite housetrain them. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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I’ve got a really screwed up knee and backpacking is getting very difficult. I’ve seen various pack animals on trails and I’m wondering about Llamas… what do they cost, what kind of care do they require, and what amount of pasture/property do they need? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Jim in Oregon The road goes ever, ever on…..

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I operate a llama packing business in CA, I also rent them. You might check out my site listed below I have some info about them. You need at least 2 llamas, as they are herd animals. If you have an acre that is more than enough. If you are just getting started I would recommend 1 to be trained…..This means trained on the trail, at least a season or a couple hundred miles of loaded trail experience. It will make your experience much more enjoyable as the trained llama will train the green one for you. I do not sell them, but I do know where they are (most of the time). llamas for packing should be tall and narrow, but most important is they have to have the right attitude. I would be more than happy to talk in detail about what to look for. The prices average $500 for an untrained ( or very little) to $1500 for a fully trained llama. As with a backpack and hiking boots, the saddle is the most important part, I recommend the Sopris saddle ( about $600) ouch…worth every penny. David Drewry Como Say Llamas www.llamapacker.com 916 923 0408

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve got a really screwed up knee and backpacking is getting very difficult. I’ve seen various pack animals on trails and I’m wondering about Llamas… what do they cost, what kind of care do they require, and what amount of pasture/property do they need? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Jim in Oregon The road goes ever, ever on…..

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Question:

Okay, I’m headed to Fort Meyers/Sanibel in early December.  I’ve fly fished quite a bit from shore down there before, but never at that time of year.  What can I expect?  Will there be reds, snook, trout, tarpon? Is it even worth bringing my tarpon rod? Also, I’m interested in what the most productive patterns for these species are at this time of year.   When I’m there, I generally fish Blind Pass, the flats along the Sanibel Causeway and the Estero Backwater.   Thanks in advance for your help. — Mark Cahill For E-mail remove the _Remove_This from the reply to address. http://www.geocities.com/Baja/3297/fishing.htm Mark Cahill’s Fishing New England – Daily Fishing News http://www.reel-time.com/ The Internet Journal of Saltwater Fly Fishing – Metropolitan Boston Regional Editor

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay, I’m headed to Fort Meyers/Sanibel in early December.  I’ve fly fished quite a bit from shore down there before, but never at that time of year.  What can I expect?  Will there be reds, snook, trout, tarpon? Is it even worth bringing my tarpon rod? Also, I’m interested in what the most productive patterns for these species are at this time of year. When I’m there, I generally fish Blind Pass, the flats along the Sanibel Causeway and the Estero Backwater. Thanks in advance for your help. — Mark Cahill For E-mail remove the _Remove_This from the reply to address. http://www.geocities.com/Baja/3297/fishing.htm Mark Cahill’s Fishing New England – Daily Fishing News http://www.reel-time.com/ The Internet Journal of Saltwater Fly Fishing – Metropolitan Boston Regional Editor

  There will most likely be NO tarpon at that time of year. Glenn

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Question:

The Irish National Tourist Board (in New York City–and I assume in their Australian offices as well) has some excellent–and free–materials regarding regulations, accommodations, fishing opportunities, etc., which are no substitute for what Tord Andreasson listed, but they are a worthwhile supplement. I am going to Ireland in September –anyone got any information re fly fishing in Ireland. Robin Widdowson Victoria Australia

Marv Slind Voice Phone:  Office:  (509) 335-7099   Fax:  (509) 335-4171        Home:  (208) 882-2426  Fax:  (208) 882-2118 Homepage URL:  http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~slind/

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I am going to Ireland in September –anyone got any information re fly fishing in Ireland. Robin Widdowson Victoria Australia

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I am going to Ireland in September –anyone got any information re fly fishing in Ireland. Robin Widdowson Victoria Australia

Robin, Here follows a reprint of articles I read some time ago. Hope this helps, Tord Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Hi William, I am interested in any publications on ffishing in Ireland in order to prepare for a trip in several years.

This is a fairly easy one thankfully, just get the following two books:- "Trout and Salmon Loughs of Ireland" and "Trout and Salmon Rivers of Ireland" They are both written by Peter O’Reilly, the ISBN on the Loughs one is 0-00-218415-X These are very good books for the local and visiting angler and well worth a read, they cover all types of water in all areas of the country and have useful lists of contacts and the like. Needless to say they can’t cover every bit of water in the country but they cover a wide variaty of waters in each area, complete with maps. Regards, Philip Blair. *** Nation Shall Peak Six Unto Nation. *** Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly I am interested in any publications on ffishing in Ireland in order to prepare for a trip in several years.

Don’t miss C.C. O’Malley’s With a Fishing Rod In Ireland (Vantage Press, 1975.)  (This is the only "vanity press" publication I’ve ever seen that was worth 10 times the cover price.) — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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Question:

: Oh, and you might wish to reconsider that open invitation for anyone to : join you fishing. I’m over in Denver and it takes very little prompting : for me to drive to your side of the divide. You wouldn’t want to wake up : at 4 a.m. to the sound of some drunken freak in a sombrero banging on : your door, demanding smoked whitefish and homebrew. Especially one over 6 feet tall.

And sometimes that’s not enough. Steve

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You wouldn’t want to wake up at 4 a.m. to the sound of some drunken freak in a sombrero banging on your door, demanding smoked whitefish and homebrew. Steve

Well, yes, he would. Mitch

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join you fishing. I’m over in Denver and it takes very little prompting for me to drive to your side of the divide. You wouldn’t want to wake up at 4 a.m. to the sound of some drunken freak in a sombrero banging on your door, demanding smoked whitefish and homebrew.

Bullshit.  It’s why I keep both my waders and my beer near the back door. TimW

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – T-Bone, When you’re under sustained attack it can be easy to let it get you down eventually. Don’t forget that taking any stand outside of the crowd (herd) makes you a target, particularly for the lowest common denominator of which there are the greatest number. These are also the ones that seldom have anything to add other than a "me too" or to attack someone without any positive input. Thus, you have to just write off the clowns that have nothing more to say other than to let vituperative spittle dribble onto their keyboards. Many of those posts remind me of a Dilbert comic where Dilbert and Wally are having a flamewar via the net between adjacent work cubicles. Dilbert is flexing his finger muscles and says "Come on flameboy, just try me" (quote may not be exact). The point being that the net lets those that are afraid to voice an independent opinion or that consider adding a five letter word to a string of 4-letterers to be intellectual discourse to have input without fear of retaliation. You have to just let it be water off a CDC. The net is the electronic Hyde Park. Everyone has a voice (if you have a computer, the electronic soapbox, of course). Hell, even Powlesland says something interesting every 20 or 30 posts or so (statistics not verified). Those that try to shout down other voices they don’t like should not be given your full consideration. Just ignore them. It’s just white noise in the background. Jon

Sounds like its T-bone affirmation time. T-bone, your good enough, your smart enough, and gosh darnit, (many) people (on this ng) like you.  Hang in there, baby.  Just go eat a few little wild brookies.  Always makes me feel better. Brett INFORMED and ENLIGHTEND C&R

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While I agree with everything you said re: T-Bone, I disagree strongly with your statement that fly fishing is a pastime not a sport. The Webster’s Dictionary has as one definition of sport, "an activity pursued for pleasure involving the hunting, taking or killing of wild animals, game or fish."

That’s a definition that will get us in trouble, eventually.  I think it’s important to differentiate between blood sports (even if it’s C&R) and the games people play for fun.  This "sport" also requires a measure of responsibility toward nature, which other sports do not.  The anti-everything crowd has a hey-day with any activity that even occasionally kills something in the name of sport.  We need another label… — Derek R. Larson           Indiana University       Department of History   "Eastward I go by force, but Westward I go free!"  -H. D. Thoreau

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T-Bone, A. If I am ever in CO you can count on me to ruin your health for several days. We will     probably do some fishing also. B. I can remember several of your posts including saving your dog, topless float trips, promising     to post GIFs of you and your buds removing living whitefish heads with your teeth and the ever     popular C&R vs C&K without resorting to any ’save’ files. C. I may not always agree with your opions but I will defend your right etc etc D. Always remember what I think when someone treats me as you have been treated; "Some people     are above me and some BLOW ME !". E. I live by the following creed when dealing with these people; "Life is a question of mind and     matter, I don’t mind and they don’t matter". The only editor a man needs is honesty. As you were, carry on. — "The true Angler is content to fish alone" Brian Di Carlo

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Hello thoughtful readers,

Well, here’s your first mistake Tim. You’re assuming that anyone with access to a keyboard can pound out something intelligent… I put a lot of work and thought into the articles that I post here. <snip

Yes you have, and I for one appreciate it. As often as not, I’ve disagreed with you, but I’ve been a lot more pissed off at the people who would attack you rather join in a civilized discussion of what you’ve said. This _is_ a discussion group is it not? <snip   I love a good laugh and poke good natured fun at our sport and current attitudes.  I try to ad variety and spice to what I feel would be a pretty droll ng sometimes

To all you bitchers an’ moaners out there- who would you have to bitch an’ moan about if were not for the inimitable Mr. T-Bone? I’ll tell ya- you’d be bitchin’ an’ moanin’ at the same Sage vs. Loomis vs. Orvis vs. whatever. And you wouldn’t be doin’ it nearly so well. As I’ve said, there’s plenty I’ve disagreed with in Tim’s posts, but I don’t see anyone around here posting funnier more thought provoking stuff. This would be one sorry ass place to hang out without him.    I have an open invitation to anyone who posts here to come to western colorado and fish with me. Next time I make a wrong turn on the Long Island Distressway you can expect me to come pounding on your door. We’ll go out an’ laugh at the fish as they go by… In short, I love the sport as I love life itself.

I believe you do, and that’s why you belong in this ng. But goddamn it stop calling this a sport. It ain’t. It’s a pastime. A sport implies competition and that it ain’t (IMNSHFO) Yet lately, for some reason, my name has appeared as the subject, my email is full of hate mail and one poster even said that they were ’so sick of me’.  This last post about wishing I would stop posting altogether has broken my resolve and hurt my feelings somewhat.

Hey Tim, DON’T LET THE BASTARDS GETCHA DOWN!   These posts are almost exclusively posts from those that have never, ever posted or expressed an idea or thoughtful answer to the ng. And never will… I don’t want any damned lectures about what to post and not to post, or how and what to say.  I ask only for fairness and objectivity in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others. Is that too much to ask ? Nope. <snip At the moment, though, I am not feeling very generous towards this ng, roff, particularly these lurkers that offer nothing but complaints about me.

Screw ‘em… — Phil Koenig Manhattan Custom Tackle Ltd. http://fishdoc.com. "I’m the boss, so WHATEVER I say is OK."

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Hang tough Tim. As the proverb says: "A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country." (Matthew 13:57) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello thoughtful readers, I put a lot of work and thought into the articles that I post here.  I have one pet peeve, that of the insanity of pure C&R on a wild population of fish.  This is an attitude that I feel is gaining momentum and has about a 50% or better following amongst fishermen, based on my casual observations. Generally (Powlesland excepted) I never, ever attack individuals and I challenge anyone to finding an ad hominum post made by me in all the years of alt.fishing and roff.  I love a good laugh and poke good natured fun at our sport and current attitudes.  I try to ad variety and spice to what I feel would be a pretty droll ng sometimes.  I offer patterns and help and have spent hours offline helping flyfishermen of all walks. I have made a lot of friends out of would be enemies by conversing offline, exchanging flies and even meeting face to face for some fishing together.   I have an open invitation to anyone who posts here to come to western colorado and fish with me. In short, I love the sport as I love life itself. Yet lately, for some reason, my name has appeared as the subject, my email is full of hate mail and one poster even said that they were ’so sick of me’.  This last post about wishing I would stop posting altogether has broken my resolve and hurt my feelings somewhat.  These posts are almost exclusively posts from those that have never, ever posted or expressed an idea or thoughtful answer to the ng. I don’t want any damned lectures about what to post and not to post, or how and what to say.  I ask only for fairness and objectivity in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others. Is that too much to ask ? TimW BTW – I am about to embark on several photographic journies in the new binaries group… 1) Tying sequences for Western Flies 2) real pictures of scarred old warriors from real C&R areas.  I think this a very worthwhile endeavor. At the moment, though, I am not feeling very generous towards this ng, roff, particularly these lurkers that offer nothing but complaints about me.

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 While I agree with everything you said re: T-Bone, I disagree strongly with your statement that fly fishing is a pastime not a sport. The Webster’s Dictionary has as one definition of sport, "an activity pursued for pleasure involving the hunting, taking or killing of wild animals, game or fish." Paul Marriner

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Tim, Way back before it became the rage, I too submitted a post that exposed some true idiocy in this ng. It was about IMHO how anything would be better than a FEDERAL Government being the overseer of wildlife and natual resources. I got the same hate mail, posts and name calling that you have received, only not to the extent you have been forced to endure. After my post, I saw several late (a few weeks later) replies to my original post become a thread that carried through to the election. I think your thread on C&R is having the same effect. There are positives and negatives to all issues, but we tend to forget the positive results. I hope such actions by irresponsible idiots do NOT shut you up. I have said it before and I say it again now: I may not agree with everything you say but I will read yur posts first and will defend to the death your right to post! The idiots? Ahhh… fuck em!

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 While I agree with everything you said re: T-Bone, I disagree strongly with your statement that fly fishing is a pastime not a sport. The Webster’s Dictionary has as one definition of sport, "an activity pursued for pleasure involving the hunting, taking or killing of wild animals, game or fish." Paul Marriner

OK Paul- You and Tim and Webster’s can call it any damn thing you want, I’ll call it fishing. You don’t think I could say all that stuff about Tim without a little jab somewhere;-) ?? Anyway, it’s whatever YOU wanna make it-that’s the ONLY thing that’s important. Best Regards, Phil Koenig Manhattan Custom Tackle Ltd. http://fishdoc.com. "I’m the boss, so WHATEVER I say is OK."

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello thoughtful readers, I put a lot of work and thought into the articles that I post here.  I have one pet peeve, that of the insanity of pure C&R on a wild population of fish.  This is an attitude that I feel is gaining momentum and has about a 50% or better following amongst fishermen, based on my casual observations. Generally (Powlesland excepted) I never, ever attack individuals and I challenge anyone to finding an ad hominum post made by me in all the years of alt.fishing and roff.  I love a good laugh and poke good natured fun at our sport and current attitudes.  I try to ad variety and spice to what I feel would be a pretty droll ng sometimes.  I offer patterns and help and have spent hours offline helping flyfishermen of all walks. I have made a lot of friends out of would be enemies by conversing offline, exchanging flies and even meeting face to face for some fishing together.   I have an open invitation to anyone who posts here to come to western colorado and fish with me. In short, I love the sport as I love life itself. Yet lately, for some reason, my name has appeared as the subject, my email is full of hate mail and one poster even said that they were ’so sick of me’.  This last post about wishing I would stop posting altogether has broken my resolve and hurt my feelings somewhat.  These posts are almost exclusively posts from those that have never, ever posted or expressed an idea or thoughtful answer to the ng. I don’t want any damned lectures about what to post and not to post, or how and what to say.  I ask only for fairness and objectivity in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others. Is that too much to ask ? TimW

Look, Tim, for what it’s worth… Sometimes your opinions make me laugh, sometimes they piss me off. The same could be said of the opinions of my wife, my mother, my brother, George Gehrke and that kid down at the 7-11 with the pierced nose. Post whatever the hell you want, but don’t stop posting. This newsgroup would be a very boring place without your insights and opinions, regardless of who likes them and who doesn’t. Oh, and you might wish to reconsider that open invitation for anyone to join you fishing. I’m over in Denver and it takes very little prompting for me to drive to your side of the divide. You wouldn’t want to wake up at 4 a.m. to the sound of some drunken freak in a sombrero banging on your door, demanding smoked whitefish and homebrew. Steve

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Tim, Don’t let a bunch of wannabes get you down. Without you in the NG, this place would be empty and drool. I like the fire and brimstone that’s shoot back and forth about the various topics here. We all don’t resemble the Marlboro Man in neat tidy packages. So, who the fuck should care. Some folks (yes, old ones) just don’t like the water muddied upstream from where they’re standing. They can’t see that the water is changing and they’re even standing in it. They’re the type of people that have all the comments at the wrong time. They don’t want to listen and learn. A good example that want to share happened to me before I became of age years ago. I was the only one working a hole and had been there for several hours. I worked it from all directions and changed my strategy each time and was starting to show some action but not hooking anything. I finally hooked a stealhead (half-pounder) but he shook off right as my thumb touched the lower jaw. I went right back to my stance and now had an audience of wannabes. On my very next cast I hooked a good five pounder and somehow knew my day was over. Here I was trying to land a fish on poor tired equipment, drowning out the questions from the fishermen on the bank. What you using? How deep you? What’s your angle of drift? And so on, and made only one comment to the guys that that the fish where in close and right on the bottom. Somehow they didn’t hear a word I said or thought I didn’t know what I was talking about. When I had that fresh pink and silver up on the beach I looked behind and smiled as these two guys twice my age mucked up the hole. In short order instead listening to what I said, they proceed to go deep and spooked all chances getting a fish for the rest of the day. People only listen to what they want to hear, and then only act on a portion of that. This is a wonderful county we live in. We have the freedom to move about, disagree with the government and speak our minds without going to jail. Tim, feel free to speak what’s on your mind, as we all need a little education to grow with. Oh, by the way, the only true sports are mountain climbing, auto racing, and bull fighting, everything else are games or pastimes. Doug Knight

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: Oh, and you might wish to reconsider that open invitation for anyone to : join you fishing. I’m over in Denver and it takes very little prompting : for me to drive to your side of the divide. You wouldn’t want to wake up : at 4 a.m. to the sound of some drunken freak in a sombrero banging on : your door, demanding smoked whitefish and homebrew. Especially one over 6 feet tall. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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Hello thoughtful readers, I put a lot of work and thought into the articles that I post here.  I have one pet peeve, that of the insanity of pure C&R on a wild population of fish.  This is an attitude that I feel is gaining momentum and has about a 50% or better following amongst fishermen, based on my casual observations.   Generally (Powlesland excepted) I never, ever attack individuals and I challenge anyone to finding an ad hominum post made by me in all the years of alt.fishing and roff.  I love a good laugh and poke good natured fun at our sport and current attitudes.

I too love a good laugh, Tim, and you and I have shared many enjoyable moments both in ng’s and private e-mail.  Nevertheless, I think your assessment of your newsgroup communications is a little too generous.  I would not have brought this up on my own, but since you have raised the issue I will say that I have felt at times that you have made use of ad hominum arguments.  Since 1993, in various ng’s, I have said that mandated C&R is a management tool which works well for some sport fisheries on wild populations.  Mixtures of mandated C&R and allowed C&K work well in other fisheries.  And very liberal C&K works well in some fisheries, too.  But there have been times when, in response, you have painted me as being a total C&R enthusiast, without exception.  And when I have offered C&R data from published, refereed studies, and observations made on specific fisheries which thrive under partial or total C&R management, your responses have not always been gracious.  For example, I recall one article into which I also "put a lot of work and thought," only to have you dismiss it by saying "nothing new here, so no response."  My feeling, quite frankly, was that you simply had nothing to offer in response to my well-documented presentation. In my opinion, newsgroups have not turned out to be particularly good public forums for reasoned discussion.  They lend themselves all too well to shouting matches.  You do add "variety and spice," but there are other good things which you could also add to r.o.f.f.  However, since you don’t want any "damned lectures"…. I ask only for fairness and objectivity in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others. BTW – I am about to embark on several photographic journies in the new binaries group… 2) real pictures of scarred old warriors from real C&R areas.  I think this a very worthwhile endeavor.

In fairness and objectivity, you could also post pictures of…. oh, yeah, no lectures….   Woods Hole, MA   USA

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..some valid observations snipped… Yet lately, for some reason, my name has appeared as the subject, my email is full of hate mail and one poster even said that they were ’so sick of me’.  This last post about wishing I would stop posting altogether has broken my resolve and hurt my feelings somewhat.  These posts are almost exclusively posts from those that have never, ever posted or expressed an idea or thoughtful answer to the ng.

… more snipped for brevity… T-Bone, When you’re under sustained attack it can be easy to let it get you down eventually. Don’t forget that taking any stand outside of the crowd (herd) makes you a target, particularly for the lowest common denominator of which there are the greatest number. These are also the ones that seldom have anything to add other than a "me too" or to attack someone without any positive input. Thus, you have to just write off the clowns that have nothing more to say other than to let vituperative spittle dribble onto their keyboards. Many of those posts remind me of a Dilbert comic where Dilbert and Wally are having a flamewar via the net between adjacent work cubicles. Dilbert is flexing his finger muscles and says "Come on flameboy, just try me" (quote may not be exact). The point being that the net lets those that are afraid to voice an independent opinion or that consider adding a five letter word to a string of 4-letterers to be intellectual discourse to have input without fear of retaliation. You have to just let it be water off a CDC. The net is the electronic Hyde Park. Everyone has a voice (if you have a computer, the electronic soapbox, of course). Hell, even Powlesland says something interesting every 20 or 30 posts or so (statistics not verified). Those that try to shout down other voices they don’t like should not be given your full consideration. Just ignore them. It’s just white noise in the background. Jon

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(lotsa stuff deleted)

I follow the posts to roff pretty carefully and Tim’s have interested me because of the informal moderator’s role he often assumes. I for one am impressed by his generosity of spirit, civility, humor, general decency and sanity. For whatever little its worth, I think there are many sane and thoughtful roff readers who feel pretty much the same way, our various C&R differences not withstanding. And I’ll bet you that a straw poll of roff readers, were that possible, would confirm that. This ain’t exactly a private club, Tim. It has more similarity to a group of people who mostly share a common interest, discussing it on a street corner. Anyone can drift in, and some real dusies do just that. You’ve got a lot of friends and well-wishers on roff, T-Bone. Don’t let noise and rudeness from silly people get to you. You’re the spice in the food around here. From Philjack’s response: At the moment, though, I am not feeling very generous towards this ng, roff, particularly these lurkers that offer nothing but complaints about me. Screw ‘em…

My advise exactly, Tim. Screw ‘em like a big dog. Tight lines and, respective to forks, light tines – Lon Lon Hall Applied Intelligence Group, Inc. Fly Fisher and Cooking Enthusiast "Eat the rich. The poor are tough and stringy."

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Hello thoughtful readers, I put a lot of work and thought into the articles that I post here.  I have one pet peeve, that of the insanity of pure C&R on a wild population of fish.  This is an attitude that I feel is gaining momentum and has about a 50% or better following amongst fishermen, based on my casual observations.

etc….. Tim, I have been lurking in this newsgroup for about two years.  I find your posts both interesting and informative.  I know it is difficult to have people flaming you, but you just need to keep doing what you think is right.  When people give me a hard time, I remember this quote: To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.         Elbert Hubbard It helps me, I hope it helps you. Keep up the good work! Trent

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In my opinion, newsgroups have not turned out to be particularly good public forums for reasoned discussion.

I agree. I used to think the problem was the medium. That is, a person read a post, formed an opinion, and typed it, pressing Send before thinking, carefully, about each word, every idea, and their implications. Usenet anonymity, no accountability, little if any responsibility. More recently, I’ve begun to think the problem is not the medium, but the people who use it (perhaps our culture as a whole). Yes, it makes me shudder, for I see them in myself. What does this have to do with fly fishing??? Everything… or nothing at all. Mitch Red-Neck at Large

Response:

there have been times when, in response, you have painted me as being a total C&R enthusiast, without exception.  And when I have offered C&R data from published, refereed studies, and observations made on specific fisheries which thrive under partial or total C&R management, your responses have not always been gracious.  For example, I recall one article into which I also "put a lot of work and thought," only to have you dismiss

In the spirit of debate ?  Isn’t that the difference ? If we, in an electronic discussion, or sitting in a bar and I said: "Bob, you ignorant slut…the little wahoooocheee doesn’t need TU meddling…" and you said: "Tim, you complete boob, research by Dr. Chumnfertrout states…" Is this not different then a post which reads: "Bob Golder is a Jerk, I wish he would take his fucking opinions about TU over to alt.dickheads" I contend that I am the object of the latter and I will not deny that I participate in the former. TimW

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If we, in an electronic discussion, or sitting in a bar and I said: "Bob, you ignorant slut…the little wahoooocheee doesn’t need TU meddling…" Is this not different then a post which reads: "Bob Golder is a Jerk, I wish he would take his fucking opinions about TU over to alt.dickheads"

Oh yes, I’d _much_ rather be called an ignorant slut than a jerk!   I _think_ you are saying that in the first example, you’re talking WITH me, but in the second example you’re talking AT me or even ABOUT me. Communication is possible in the first example, but more difficult and perhaps impossible in the second example. Whether in a bar or at a computer terminal, the next thing I’d ask you is how would TU get factored into our typical conversations about C&R vs. C&K?  Trout Unlimited is not a C&R-only organization.  TU is not even a fly fishing organization, but accepts spincasting and baitcasting, both with artificial lures and with bait.  That’s why the Federation of Fly Fishers was originally formed by people who objected to these TU policies.  Tim, I think that this illustrates another reason why some people get frustrated with you.  In the middle of a conversation about C&R, all of a sudden you might be knocking TU or cutting osier branches to paint the water for brookies (a lovely image, to be sure, but one which fetches linear thinkers up a bit short.  We can get a bit fussy when that happens.). So I think that some people are confused or possibly made angry by the freewheeling nature of your posts, as well as by the actual substance (if any!  :-) ) of your comments.  But no one should insult you or send hate mail to you as a result of your communications. Woods Hole, MA   USA

Response:

: Hello thoughtful readers, : I have made a lot of friends out of would be enemies by conversing : offline, exchanging flies and even meeting face to face for some : fishing together.   I have an open invitation to anyone who posts : here to come to western colorado and fish with me. Careful, I might take you up on it.  ;)

I’d be careful too.  Wayne might take him up on it.  I know that my travels ever do find me in Colorado again I will most certainly try and look Tim up for a couple hours or more of fishing. : I don’t want any damned lectures about what to post and not to post, : or how and what to say.  I ask only for fairness and objectivity : in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others.   : Is that too much to ask ?   For some people, yes.  It has been my observation that a lynch mob mentality can start when one poster starts to flame another. It’s happened to me.  Kinda makes you open season.

Often there might be a lynch mob merely because someone has posted something so contraversial that a lot of people disagree with it and want to express their opinion.  Tim posts on a contraversial topic and I would expect a lot of responses and I think he handles them quite well without resorting to vitriol and ad hominem attacks.  I can’t say the same thing for many of the people that disagree with him.  The other day someone declared that they were creating a killfile with Tim’s name in it.  I really couldn’t understand why someone would do that merely because they disagreed with his opinions.  If Tim presented them in a flammatory manner, attacking the people that use pure C&R rather then the practice I could understand but he doesn’t. I hope that those responsible for Tim’s posting will honor his request. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Response:

Hello thoughtful readers, I put a lot of work and thought into the articles that I post here.  I have one pet peeve, that of the insanity of pure C&R on a wild population of fish.  This is an attitude that I feel is gaining momentum and has about a 50% or better following amongst fishermen, based on my casual observations.   Generally (Powlesland excepted) I never, ever attack individuals and I challenge anyone to finding an ad hominum post made by me in all the years of alt.fishing and roff.  I love a good laugh and poke good natured fun at our sport and current attitudes.  I try to ad variety and spice to what I feel would be a pretty droll ng sometimes.  I offer patterns and help and have spent hours offline helping flyfishermen of all walks.   I have made a lot of friends out of would be enemies by conversing offline, exchanging flies and even meeting face to face for some fishing together.   I have an open invitation to anyone who posts here to come to western colorado and fish with me. In short, I love the sport as I love life itself. Yet lately, for some reason, my name has appeared as the subject, my email is full of hate mail and one poster even said that they were ’so sick of me’.  This last post about wishing I would stop posting altogether has broken my resolve and hurt my feelings somewhat.  These posts are almost exclusively posts from those that have never, ever posted or expressed an idea or thoughtful answer to the ng. I don’t want any damned lectures about what to post and not to post, or how and what to say.  I ask only for fairness and objectivity in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others.   Is that too much to ask ?   TimW BTW – I am about to embark on several photographic journies in the new binaries group… 1) Tying sequences for Western Flies 2) real pictures of scarred old warriors from real C&R areas.  I think this a very worthwhile endeavor.   At the moment, though, I am not feeling very generous towards this ng, roff, particularly these lurkers that offer nothing but complaints about me.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello thoughtful readers, I put a lot of work and thought into the articles that I post here.   This last post about wishing I would stop posting altogether has broken my resolve and hurt my feelings somewhat.  These posts are almost exclusively posts from those that have never, ever posted or expressed an idea or thoughtful answer to the ng. I don’t want any damned lectures about what to post and not to post, or how and what to say.  I ask only for fairness and objectivity in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others.   Is that too much to ask ?   At the moment, though, I am not feeling very generous towards this ng, roff, particularly these lurkers that offer nothing but complaints about me.

Having visited roff for the past few months it’s taken a while to learn a bit about the personalities who post here. It’s easy particularly in the first few visits to take posts (particularly those tongue in cheek) out of context and come away thinking that there’s a fine stock of creeps on this ng. Further there have been much unneeded barbs shot at identifable people &groups: namely GG, Rex Geirach Gary Borger ,the yuppy ff crowd and anyone who buys Orvis. Perhaps it’s good fun but someone is bound to take it personal. BEWARE those who give out should be prepared to get as good as they give. For my part I’ve got no intent to be deliberately malicious. I’d also add that over my months of browsing T-bone’s proven to be one of the more entertaining and though provoking denizens of these occassionally deep and troubled waters. Ralph H.

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: Hello thoughtful readers, : I have made a lot of friends out of would be enemies by conversing : offline, exchanging flies and even meeting face to face for some : fishing together.   I have an open invitation to anyone who posts : here to come to western colorado and fish with me. Careful, I might take you up on it.  ;) : I don’t want any damned lectures about what to post and not to post, : or how and what to say.  I ask only for fairness and objectivity : in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others.   : Is that too much to ask ?   For some people, yes.  It has been my observation that a lynch mob mentality can start when one poster starts to flame another. It’s happened to me.  Kinda makes you open season. Later, Jon Porter

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Question:

I have a couple of rods I use in freshwater in Michigan, I going to Nort Carolina for spring break and was going to fish on the shore and the bay between the outr banks and the coast. I heard never use  non salt water equipment in salt water.  The question is: Is this safe for the rod. What if I wash it every day. I can’t imagine the salt water effecting the anodised aluminum reel its an Orvis Madison and I also have a cheap Graphite Cabela reel. I cook spagetti noodles in salt water in an anodised aluminum pot and no ill effects yet. Am I worried about nothing. :-O

Response:

You should be ok as long as you use fresh water to rinse it off after you get home.  You might want to use a line conditioner when you get all through just to put a good finish back on your line.  your flys may get a little corroded too especially if you file the points down.  no big loss there tie up a few extra bill

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I have a couple of rods I use in freshwater in Michigan, I going to Nort Carolina for spring break and was going to fish on the shore and the bay between the outr banks and the coast. I heard never use  non salt water equipment in salt water.  The question is: Is this safe for the rod. What if I wash it every day. I can’t imagine the salt water effecting the anodised aluminum reel its an Orvis Madison and I also have a cheap Graphite Cabela reel. I cook spagetti noodles in salt water in an anodised aluminum pot and no ill effects yet. Am I worried about nothing. :-O

I have used a big fresh water fly rod in salt water, and have had no problem.  I have washed it off with fresh water immediately after I finish fishing (even before the beers).  It has not rusted at all. That goes for the reel too.   However, I neglected to wash off my wading boots a couple of times and the eyelets have almost rusted away.   stefan m. Arlington, Texas Web Page:  http://rampages.onramp.net/~smarc

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That stuff should work just fine. What length and weight rod, that could be a bigger concern… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a couple of rods I use in freshwater in Michigan, I going to Nort Carolina for spring break and was going to fish on the shore and the bay between the outr banks and the coast. I heard never use  non salt water equipment in salt water.  The question is: Is this safe for the rod. What if I wash it every day. I can’t imagine the salt water effecting the anodised aluminum reel its an Orvis Madison and I also have a cheap Graphite Cabela reel. I cook spagetti noodles in salt water in an anodised aluminum pot and no ill effects yet. Am I worried about nothing. :-O

Response:

: I have a couple of rods I use in freshwater in Michigan, I going to Nort : Carolina for spring break and was going to fish on the shore and the bay : between the outr banks and the coast. I heard never use  non salt water : equipment in salt water.  The question is: Is this safe for the rod. What : if I wash it every day. I can’t imagine the salt water effecting the : anodised aluminum reel its an Orvis Madison and I also have a cheap : Graphite Cabela reel. I cook spagetti noodles in salt water in an anodised : aluminum pot and no ill effects yet. Am I worried about nothing. :-O   The best thing to do is to make sure that you wash everything in fresh water and lots of it!   There is a product that I sell at Dame Julina Flyfishing in Columbus, Ohio. It is called dynaGlide. You spray this stuff all over your reels, rods, and other equipment. It is even safe for flylines! This stuff just plain works. It is something like WD-40, but better for the sportsman. Jon Porter

Response:

I have a couple of rods I use in freshwater in Michigan, I going to Nort Carolina for spring break and was going to fish on the shore and the bay between the outr banks and the coast. I heard never use  non salt water equipment in salt water.  The question is: Is this safe for the rod. What if I wash it every day. I can’t imagine the salt water effecting the anodised aluminum reel its an Orvis Madison and I also have a cheap Graphite Cabela reel. I cook spagetti noodles in salt water in an anodised aluminum pot and no ill effects yet. Am I worried about nothing. :-O

Just rinse the guides well in fresh water.  dunk your reel in a bucket or sink full of fresh water.  as long as everything gets a fresh water bath and a chance to dry you should be okay.  be sure everything is dry before you pack it!

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Question:

I fished the N. Fork Saturday and found only Smallmouth Bass. Really good ones, too, but no trout. Water was gin clear and warm.  I fished the Yankee Jim access east of Colfax.  Got buzzed by a Timber Ratltler, saw some homeless-types panning, and generally was disappointed. Am I selling this river short?  Is there beter action upriver around Mumford Bar, and if so, how is the access? It seems like it could be a good resource and I know a portion of the river has Wild Trout status. Any info would be greatly appreciated. John Wallace

Response:

Hi John- The N.Fork American is a neat river. As you found out, there are some nice smallies out of Colfax. In the fall and early summer you’ll find rainbows and browns up and down the system as far as Lake Clementine. As the water warms the trout move upstream, into the springs, or into the deeper waters of the lake.      To get into consistant (small but plentiful) summer trout you’ll have to hike in at one of the trails near Royal Gorge or get permission to access the river at The Cedars just south of Donner Summit (drive down the dirt rd past Serene Lakes and ask at one of the cabins.    The timber rattle snake you saw is really a north pacific rattler. They do bite but generally go out of their way to avoid you. Don’t bother ‘em, they belong here (the browns and smallmouth don’t!).    Wild waters, Ralph Cutter —

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Question:

Hi I need some help.  Does anyone know where i can find some flyfishing clip art?  I neeed it for our TU newsletter.  Please e-mail me at Thanks for the help. Jamie Hart

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I need some help.  Does anyone know where i can find some flyfishing clip art?  I neeed it for our TU newsletter.  Please e-mail me at

I need same type of info.  I e-mailed this type of request to TU national over a month ago and haven’t heard anything from them. Please post a reply to the Newsgroup. Tight Lines, Gerry

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I need some help.  Does anyone know where i can find some flyfishing clip art?  I neeed it for our TU newsletter.  Please e-mail me at Thanks for the help. Jamie Hart  Get a life!!!!

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