Question:

Try building an order entry system for a large telco with a unionized work force. The union threatens to sue the company over the fonts and says the system is too easy to use, thereby threatening the jobs of the current call center workers because they "could" "conceivalby" be replaced by lower paid workers who don’t require the *13 weeks* of training that the old sytem required. This was a few jobs ago

Sheesh… you came just in time.  I was about to crack open a roll of foil On a positive note, I get back-to-back to business trips to San Diego and Las Vegas. So hopefully I can break out of the Northern VA winter doldrums and get in five or six rounds of golf.

Oh, man, then what do you have to complain about?  You have it pretty darn good, if you ask me.

Response:

Try building an order entry system for a large telco with a unionized work force. The union threatens to sue the company over the fonts and says the system is too easy to use, thereby threatening the jobs of the current call center workers because they "could" "conceivalby" be replaced by lower paid workers who don’t require the *13 weeks* of training that the old sytem required. This was a few jobs ago On a positive note, I get back-to-back to business trips to San Diego and Las Vegas. So hopefully I can break out of the Northern VA winter doldrums and get in five or six rounds of golf. Tim T – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Final word "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval. "I had a better time fly fishing in Montana for 10 days than I had all year programming." — Jeff Connelly Try developing intranet portals for HR/Payroll departments in corporations all year.  They complain about the type and the color of fonts you used.  Oh, and "the background color for the menus is not pleasing to the eye".  I’d have a better time chewing on aluminum foil while staring at a wall for a week.  And at least you "program".  I feel more like a glorified website designer.

Response:

Maybe he should stop using the Momentus Training Club….

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Final word "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval.

Response:

– "

— "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval. How much money did he earn snowboarding? Given his bank account, how much did he _need_ to earn? The statement was about having fun, not earning money.

I imagine most people would say they have more fun at play rather than work. I just don’t have much sympathy for him.  He’s playing golf for a living for God’s sake.  How much better can it get. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                   Bruce E. Newman  *  Fredericton, NB, Canada               http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb      info at benewman dot bizland dot com   *   http://go.to/bruce_newman

Response:

Final word "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval. "I had a better time fly fishing in Montana for 10 days than I had all year programming." — Jeff Connelly

Try developing intranet portals for HR/Payroll departments in corporations all year.  They complain about the type and the color of fonts you used.  Oh, and "the background color for the menus is not pleasing to the eye".  I’d have a better time chewing on aluminum foil while staring at a wall for a week.  And at least you "program".  I feel more like a glorified website designer.

Response:

"I had a better time fly fishing in Montana for 10 days than I had all year programming." — Jeff Connelly

Sorry Jeff, but now heaven will be a let down. Cheers, Mike

Response:

says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The trick is to have fun _and_ earn money.  At the GHO last summer, I followed Duval’s group for a while.  He was laboring his way through the round, looking like he was having a miserable time out there on his way to missing the cut.  It was a depressing sight.  Contrast that with Fred Funk, who was seen several times on TV last season, having fun, playing well, and making plenty of money.  That’s the way to go. Does good play lead to a positive attitude, or vice versa?  That conundrum is one of the things that makes golf such a great game. I agree – but Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods don’t appear to be at the top of the "having fun" scale while playing.

Appearances can be deceiving… Both Jack and Tiger really enjoy what they’re doing… The fact that they’re quieter or more reserved than other competitors doesn’t mean aren’t having fun. — Cheers- Jeff Setaro http://people.mags.net/jasetaro/ PGP Key IDs DH/DSS: 0×5D41429D RSA: 0×599D2A99 New RSA: 0xA19EBD34

Response:

I agree – but Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods don’t appear to be at the top of the "having fun" scale while playing. Appearances can be deceiving… Both Jack and Tiger really enjoy what they’re doing… The fact that they’re quieter or more reserved than other competitors doesn’t mean aren’t having fun.

Although Jack has admitted to not enjoying the game as much as his competitors back in his younger days. Still, as a spectator, I enjoy watching performers who seem to be enjoying themselves.  This applies at all levels, ages; in sports, and other show biz.

Response:

The trick is to have fun _and_ earn money.  At the GHO last summer, I followed Duval’s group for a while.  He was laboring his way through the round, looking like he was having a miserable time out there on his way to missing the cut.  It was a depressing sight.  Contrast that with Fred Funk, who was seen several times on TV last season, having fun, playing well, and making plenty of money.  That’s the way to go. Does good play lead to a positive attitude, or vice versa?  That conundrum is one of the things that makes golf such a great game.

I agree – but Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods don’t appear to be at the top of the "having fun" scale while playing.

Response:

— "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval. How much money did he earn snowboarding? Given his bank account, how much did he _need_ to earn? The statement was about having fun, not earning money.

The trick is to have fun _and_ earn money.  At the GHO last summer, I followed Duval’s group for a while.  He was laboring his way through the round, looking like he was having a miserable time out there on his way to missing the cut.  It was a depressing sight.  Contrast that with Fred Funk, who was seen several times on TV last season, having fun, playing well, and making plenty of money.  That’s the way to go. Does good play lead to a positive attitude, or vice versa?  That conundrum is one of the things that makes golf such a great game.   – cja

Response:

Final word "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval. "I had a better time fly fishing in Montana for 10 days than I had all year programming." — Jeff Connelly

Ah, but what if they paid your to fly fish? You might loose your enthusiasm for it.  (p.s. I don’t know who *they* are or I’d have that job already)

Response:

Final word "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval.

"I had a better time fly fishing in Montana for 10 days than I had all year programming." — Jeff Connelly

Response:

Final word "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval.

Response:

Final word "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval.

I think he said pretty much the same thing last year. Probably explains his season. — Dan Driscoll Charter Member Super Secret Sinister Golf Society (SSSGS)

Response:

–   "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval.

How much money did he earn snowboarding?

Response:

— "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval. How much money did he earn snowboarding?

Given his bank account, how much did he _need_ to earn? The statement was about having fun, not earning money. Bruce                   Bruce E. Newman  *  Fredericton, NB, Canada                                 http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb      info at benewman dot bizland dot com   *   http://go.to/bruce_newman

Response:

Question:

How about taking this to an email status, guys. I have a 3 month old yellow Lab in the vet hospital with Parvo. The vet thinks he can get her through it, but she is sick as hell. Amazing how quickly you can get attached to a dumb old dog… — Michael Collier Citizen Fisherman

– http://members.home.net/jbarton248

Response:

I’m very sorry to hear that, but I’m afraid it’s due to your own carelessness. Never, ever let your pup around other dogs, or in places where other dogs roam, until it’s had its full set of parvo shots. These are typically given every three to four weeks until the dog is four months old. The dog is NOT immune until it’s had all the shots. A parvo booster shot is given once a year. It’s important to socialize a pup to people and other dogs, but they should only be allowed around other dogs that you KNOW are healthy and immune to the parvo virus.

Ah nothing like a little dose of salt for a wound.  Sorry RW, I know you could care less but I think this was a low blow and rather presumptuous of you.  I don’t know the circumstances surrounding Mr. Colliers pup…given that, I certainly wouldn’t affix blame.  Even if I did know, I don’t see the point in the blame game anyway…I’m sure he’ll learn all he needs to about Parvo by the time this is all done. Michael F. Pitch (Natty)

Response:

Yeesh. And I  thought that the South African where a heartless bunch! Yowza! I have a 3 month old yellow Lab in the vet hospital with Parvo. The vet thinks he can get her through it, but she is sick as hell. Amazing how quickly you can get attached to a dumb old dog… — Michael Collier Citizen Fisherman

Ari Bert                                        Gaelle Bert +27 (0) 83 232 9903                             +27 (0) 83 236 5308 Flyfishing Corner +27 (0) 11 447 7230                             Shop 94, Admirals Court +27 (0) 11 882 8537 (fax)                       Cnr Craddock & Tyrwhitt www.troutfishing.co.za                                Street, Rosebank P.O.Box 79067 Senderwood 2145 South Africa

Response:

You first, clueless newbie! Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How about taking this to an email status, guys. — http://members.home.net/jbarton248

Response:

Yeesh. And I  thought that the South African where a heartless bunch! Yowza!

Nah, we got you beat all over for incivility, bud. We don’t have a T&R commission trying to keep us straight, either.

Response:

I have a 3 month old yellow Lab in the vet hospital with Parvo. The vet thinks he can get her through it, but she is sick as hell. Amazing how quickly you can get attached to a dumb old dog… — Michael Collier Citizen Fisherman

Mike, Got a pup myself. Wouldn’t trade him for a million. However, I wouldn’t give you $.10 for another. Seriously, hope your pet gets well. Ken Williams

Response:

Bovine Excrement on your part rw!  Friend’s dog got parvo at the vets when he went in for the parvo shots.  Manure happens. Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Parvo is like a roulette wheel, and our number came up. Bullshit. Your dog was exposed to parvo when it was in your care, then you have the cheek to come here looking for sympathy. I never got on your case during the sorry eBay debacle, but it’s now very clear that you have a problem in taking responsibility for your actions, or inactions. BTW, if you get the opportunity to counsel people with sick kids, pass… If they’re parents who exposed their kids to a deadly, contagious, and preventable disease through negligence, I’ll pass. And please, whatever else you do, if your dog dies don’t get another one. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Calif Bill writes: Bovine Excrement on your part rw!  Friend’s dog got parvo at the vets when he went in for the parvo shots.  Manure happens. Bill

No doubt about it.  The best place to catch it is *at* the vet’s.  If you bring an unprotected puppy to the vet’s office, you should bring a large towel for the dog to sit/lie on.  While a good vet will spray and clean the surfaces exposed to dogs/puppies, there is still the chance that the virus will survive.  So, beat it by not allowing the puppy on *any* of the surfaces at the vet’s office until the pup is fully vaccinated.  It is the only sure way to protect your dog.  Although rw was a little blunt in his approach of placing blame, it is the human’s fault that the animal gets infected.  Keep the pup away from possible infected surfaces. I leave for Idaho in a few hours.  Unfortunately, Henry can’t go with me…d;0( Dave

Response:

Not your falt.  Parvo shots don’t always prevent your dog from getting it but it may lessen the effect enough that he’ll live.  Parvo can stay in the ground where an infected dog has dumped for a year or more, so chances are you never nknew where he came up with it. Bill Pentheny Adams (PA) County Bassmasters Cheasapeake Bay Retriever Relief & Rescue

Response:

True,,, Although the good old T&R aren’t all that straight themselves. ‘Bout as straight as a caddis hook I reckon. Ari Yeesh. And I  thought that the South African where a heartless bunch! Yowza! Nah, we got you beat all over for incivility, bud. We don’t have a T&R commission trying to keep us straight, either.

Ari Bert                                        Gaelle Bert +27 (0) 83 232 9903                             +27 (0) 83 236 5308 Flyfishing Corner +27 (0) 11 447 7230                             Shop 94, Admirals Court +27 (0) 11 882 8537 (fax)                       Cnr Craddock & Tyrwhitt www.troutfishing.co.za                                Street, Rosebank P.O.Box 79067 Senderwood 2145 South Africa

Response:

…so it is fitting that the dog should die to punish his master’s mistakes. Hmm. Interesting viewpoint.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bullshit. Your dog was exposed to parvo when it was in your care, then you have the cheek to come here looking for sympathy. I never got on your case during the sorry eBay debacle, but it’s now very clear that you have a problem in taking responsibility for your actions, or inactions. And please, whatever else you do, if your dog dies don’t get another one.

Response:

Bullshit. Your dog was exposed to parvo when

it was in your care….<   Let me tell you a story, rw…and please, comment on it.  I raised a litter of pointers a few years ago.   They were whelped in my garage.  Never around any dogs except their mother.  I started giving them shots at 5 weeks (when I weaned them).   I gave them a shot at 5 weeks, a shot at 6, one at 8, one at 10 and one at 14.  5 shots in all.  I kept 4 of these puppies.  They were in a new pen that had never had other dogs in it.  At 17/18 weeks, two of them developed parvo and subsequently died.  The other two (in the same pen) lived and showed no signs of sickness.   I see no reason why 2 puppies out of 4, raised under identical conditions would develop parvo and 2 would not.  Obviously, they were "exposed" to parvo but I can’t for the life of me figure how unless I carried it in on my boots from a field trial.  BUT, I had given them *5* shots and only 2 of the 4 died.  Shit happens.

Response:

Dog’s fine and is coming home this afternoon. Thanks for all the kind words. — Michael Collier Citizen Fisherman

Response:

I have a 3 month old yellow Lab in the vet hospital with Parvo. The vet thinks he can get her through it, but she is sick as hell. Amazing how quickly you can get attached to a dumb old dog…

I’m very sorry to hear that, but I’m afraid it’s due to your own carelessness. Never, ever let your pup around other dogs, or in places where other dogs roam, until it’s had its full set of parvo shots. These are typically given every three to four weeks until the dog is four months old. The dog is NOT immune until it’s had all the shots. A parvo booster shot is given once a year. It’s important to socialize a pup to people and other dogs, but they should only be allowed around other dogs that you KNOW are healthy and immune to the parvo virus. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

I wish you a lot of good luck with your puppy.  Your right about how quick you get to loving a pup.  I hope this works out well for you and your pup. PS:  Wish it was my ex who got the Parvo instead Richard

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a 3 month old yellow Lab in the vet hospital with Parvo. The vet thinks he can get her through it, but she is sick as hell. Amazing how quickly you can get attached to a dumb old dog… — Michael Collier Citizen Fisherman

Response:

Don’t know about the divorce part, but one of the hardest things I’ve had to do was put down my Aussie. Tim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks. Michael Collier <- lump in throat, feeling kinda silly Citizen Fisherman Don’t sweat it. One of the worst times I ever had was when I had to put my last dog down. Hell of a lot worse than divorcing my old lady. —  Charles Davis     K4SWB <<I’m The NRA

Response:

rw writes: Never, ever let your pup around other dogs, or in places where other dogs roam, until it’s had its full set of parvo shots. These are typically given every three to four weeks until the dog is four months old. The dog is NOT immune until it’s had all the shots. A parvo booster shot is given once a year.

When we got Henry two and half years ago at age 8 weeks, we took him to the vet for a check up, but we brought a towel for him to sit/stand on.  Never let an unvacinated pup around the floor or tables of any vet. It’s important to socialize a pup to people and other dogs, but they should only be allowed around other dogs that you KNOW are healthy and immune to the parvo virus.

If you do socialize around others pubs (puppy kindergarden, obedience school, etc., ensure that one of the requirements is up-to-date parvo shots.   I’ll be out your way on Sunday, Steve.  Taking grandson #2 fishing somewhere east of Cascade — we fly in from Boise.   Dave

Response:

Did you know the Parvo virus can survive in dog feces for up to a year? Did you know some dogs only carry the virus? Did you know puppies are born with their mother’s immunity to Parvo, and there is only the briefest window from the time the in-born immunity fails and the puppies own kicks in? We were not at all careless with this dog. Parvo is like a roulette wheel, and our number came up. BTW, if you get the opportunity to counsel people with sick kids, pass… — Michael Collier Citizen Fisherman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m very sorry to hear that, but I’m afraid it’s due to your own carelessness.

Response:

Thank you! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW, if you get the opportunity to counsel people with sick kids, pass… — Michael Collier Citizen Fisherman I’m very sorry to hear that, but I’m afraid it’s due to your own carelessness.

Response:

It’s important to socialize a pup to people and other dogs, but they should only be allowed around other dogs that you KNOW are healthy and immune to the parvo virus.

My neighbor’s pup was in a fenced backyard when he was visited by a sick loose dog (that dog later died — his owners *were* careless).  The pup got sick very quickly and my neighbors took him to the vet right away.  With lots of care, he did recover beautifully.  My dogs were older (and had their regular booster shots) and they weren’t affected, luckily. Hang in there, Michael.  Thinking good thoughts your way. Sandy

Response:

Parvo is like a roulette wheel, and our number came up.

Bullshit. Your dog was exposed to parvo when it was in your care, then you have the cheek to come here looking for sympathy. I never got on your case during the sorry eBay debacle, but it’s now very clear that you have a problem in taking responsibility for your actions, or inactions. BTW, if you get the opportunity to counsel people with sick kids, pass…

If they’re parents who exposed their kids to a deadly, contagious, and preventable disease through negligence, I’ll pass. And please, whatever else you do, if your dog dies don’t get another one. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

I have a 3 month old yellow Lab in the vet hospital with Parvo. The vet thinks he can get her through it, but she is sick as hell. Amazing how quickly you can get attached to a dumb old dog… — Michael Collier Citizen Fisherman

Response:

Michael I am very sorry to hear this, we lost a puppy to Parvo and we DO understand how you must be feeling.  Hang in there, there is hope, your puppy is a little older than ours was and the vet told us the older the better… Padishar Creel –  My best friend has always been a dog.

Response:

Thanks. — Michael Collier <- lump in throat, feeling kinda silly Citizen Fisherman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Michael I am very sorry to hear this, we lost a puppy to Parvo and we DO understand how you must be feeling.  Hang in there, there is hope, your puppy is a little older than ours was and the vet told us the older the better…

Response:

Thanks. Michael Collier <- lump in throat, feeling kinda silly Citizen Fisherman

Don’t sweat it. One of the worst times I ever had was when I had to put my last dog down. Hell of a lot worse than divorcing my old lady. —  Charles Davis     K4SWB <<I’m The NRA

Response:

Question:

If you are near Rushmore you are near Rapid City.  There is excellent fishing in Rapid Creek and in Spring Creek.  I am not sure how well Spring Creek fishes during the heat of summer. Both hold lots of nice fish.  When I fished Spring Creek in May a couple of years ago I had one afternoon of good olives.  Most of the fish I caught during the two days I fished it were on small nymphs fished with weight.  I caught a lot of fish between 11" and 14" and I did catch two fish that were considerably larger. When I was on Rapid Creek there were no hatches but I did well fishing a hopper pattern with a dropper.  I fished a large madam x. Both streams are not very wide so you will not need much rod. JK

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll be visiting Mt. Rushmore next week. Can anyone give me some info on fishing opportunites in the area. I’ll be staying in a town call Lead. Info on rod size, fly selection and anything else that will help me catch some fish is appreaciated. Thanks

Response:

I’ll be visiting Mt. Rushmore next week. Can anyone give me some info on fishing opportunites in the area. I’ll be staying in a town call Lead. Info on rod size, fly selection and anything else that will help me catch some fish is appreaciated. Thanks

Response:

Question:

Anybody know what happened to the fly swap that was posted on this newsgroup a while back?  I Emailled the poster and haven’t heard from him. Willi

Response:

Anybody know what happened to the fly swap that was posted on this newsgroup a while back?  I Emailled the poster and haven’t heard from him. Willi

 So did I! perhaps he’s busy? Or a little confused by all the reactions? Hans van der Stroom

Response:

Hans van der Stroom schrieb in Nachricht Anybody know what happened to the fly swap that was posted on this newsgroup a while back?  I Emailled the poster and haven’t heard from him. Willi So did I! perhaps he’s busy? Or a little confused by all the reactions? Hans van der Stroom

I got no reply as yet either. Perhaps he got too many e-mails ? Obviously quite a few people replied. Hope he manages to get it going though. Would be nice to have something a little more tangible from other ROFF members, makes it more personal somehow. Tight Lines ! Mike Connor

Response:

I did the same.  Last I heard from him. Hans van der Stroom schrieb in Nachricht William Loehman heeft geschreven in bericht

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Anybody know what happened to the fly swap that was posted on this newsgroup a while back?  I Emailled the poster and haven’t heard from him. Willi So did I! perhaps he’s busy? Or a little confused by all the reactions? Hans van der Stroom I got no reply as yet either. Perhaps he got too many e-mails ? Obviously quite a few people replied. Hope he manages to get it going though. Would be nice to have something a little more tangible from other ROFF members, makes it more personal somehow. Tight Lines ! Mike Connor

Response:

I got no reply as yet either. Perhaps he got too many e-mails ? Obviously Tight Lines ! Mike Connor

Maybe he’s making a list to sell to phone solicitors…..;] No really. Maybe life intervened. pete

Response:

It was mine, promised it to you somewhere in the Peter Ross thread some time ago. Just forgot to adjust the label. Cheers, Herman Got my package in the mail the other day.  It was a wonderful assortment of flies.  I hope we can get some more info on some of them.  Who was it that was collecting info for a web site? Paul? BTW, who tied the Peter Ross?  Mine was labeled as being an Elk & CDC by Herman. Mu

– Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

Peter Ross was a Scottish barber who combined the now alomost forgotten Teal and Silver and the Teal and Red to a (according to history) very succesful wet fly/attractor. Origins are (top of my head) somewhere late on the last century. I caught more fish on it than I care to remember. Ideal fly for rivers in rainy circumstances and staining water. Fish across and down and have fun! Also very good on lakes. The odd thing about the PR is that it either works for you, or not at all. There’s still some Scottish mystic left in the old pattern I guess.. Pattern: Hook: standard wet fly, normally 8 – 14 Tail: goldpheasant tippets Body: rear 2/3 flat silver, front 1/3 red seal (imitation)       ribbed with silver wire Wing: Teal Hackle: black hen or soft cock, tied to the underside of the hook. Herman, enjoying a wee dram.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I am collenting the stuff for the web site. Who is Peter Ross? Paul … Got my package in the mail the other day.  It was a wonderful assortment of flies.  I hope we can get some more info on some of them.  Who was it that was collecting info for a web site? Paul? BTW, who tied the Peter Ross?  Mine was labeled as being an Elk & CDC by Herman. Mu

– Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

Ah, thanks Herman, for awhile there I thought I screwed up in picking that one out to give to Mu….the label had me confused. (more than usual, that is) Frank (where am I?) Church

|It was mine, promised it to you somewhere in the Peter Ross thread some |time ago. Just forgot to adjust the label. |Cheers, Herman |

| | Got my package in the mail the other day.  It was a wonderful assortment | of flies.  I hope we can get some more info on some of them.  Who was it | that was collecting info for a web site? Paul? | | BTW, who tied the Peter Ross?  Mine was labeled as being an Elk & CDC by | Herman. | | Mu | |– |Cheers, Herman |Herman Nijland |Daytime webmaster |Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

I thought I was short a fly for a moment because I didn’t see anyflies like that.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ah, thanks Herman, for awhile there I thought I screwed up in picking that one out to give to Mu….the label had me confused. (more than usual, that is) Frank (where am I?) Church |It was mine, promised it to you somewhere in the Peter Ross thread some |time ago. Just forgot to adjust the label. |Cheers, Herman | | | Got my package in the mail the other day.  It was a wonderful assortment | of flies.  I hope we can get some more info on some of them.  Who was it | that was collecting info for a web site? Paul? | | BTW, who tied the Peter Ross?  Mine was labeled as being an Elk & CDC by | Herman. | | Mu | |– |Cheers, Herman |Herman Nijland |Daytime webmaster |Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

‘Twas an exciting day at the Kirkpatrick household yesterday when the Fly Menagerie arrived.  Even my wife, an occasional fflady (between golf and tennis and gardening pursuits), was intrigued.  She especially liked the cute flys with the eyes.  I was duly impressed by the level of fly-tying-skills displayed, all previously expressed caveats, rationalizations, and absurd excuses notwithstanding.  Geez….These guys are GOOD!  I must have obtained the hand-selected display flys that Frank had obtained from some secret source, mimicing the identical fly types purportedly sent by Roffians.  Great job guys.  I too am looking forward to the web site for more info on how and when to fish each fly.  Thanks to all participants. Pat K In article Got my package in the mail the other day.  It was a wonderful assortment of flies.  I hope we can get some more info on some of them.  Who was it that was collecting info for a web site? Paul? BTW, who tied the Peter Ross?  Mine was labeled as being an Elk & CDC by Herman. Mu

* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

I’m looking forward to your website paul.  I haven’t got all the names matched up with the flies yet.  Thanks for the effort. — Levi "So long, and thanks for all the fish."

Response:

Speaking of which, is the site up yet Paul?  Got a URL for us?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m looking forward to your website paul.  I haven’t got all the names matched up with the flies yet.  Thanks for the effort.

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It’s taking a little longer than I expected (doesn’t every project). Here is one of the flies: http://www.paul.goodwinweb.com/flyswap2000/grw.jpg It is the Green Rock Worm tied by LaCourse. Nice fly but I had expected he’d tie something with wool. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Speaking of which, is the site up yet Paul?  Got a URL for us? I’m looking forward to your website paul.  I haven’t got all the names matched up with the flies yet.  Thanks for the effort.

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I just found the pattern in the book by Taff Price "Fly Patterns an international guide" Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter Ross was a Scottish barber who combined the now alomost forgotten Teal and Silver and the Teal and Red to a (according to history) very succesful wet fly/attractor. Origins are (top of my head) somewhere late on the last century. I caught more fish on it than I care to remember. Ideal fly for rivers in rainy circumstances and staining water. Fish across and down and have fun! Also very good on lakes. The odd thing about the PR is that it either works for you, or not at all. There’s still some Scottish mystic left in the old pattern I guess.. Pattern: Hook: standard wet fly, normally 8 – 14 Tail: goldpheasant tippets Body: rear 2/3 flat silver, front 1/3 red seal (imitation)       ribbed with silver wire Wing: Teal Hackle: black hen or soft cock, tied to the underside of the hook. Herman, enjoying a wee dram.. Hi, I am collenting the stuff for the web site. Who is Peter Ross? Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … Got my package in the mail the other day.  It was a wonderful assortment of flies.  I hope we can get some more info on some of them.  Who was it that was collecting info for a web site? Paul? BTW, who tied the Peter Ross?  Mine was labeled as being an Elk & CDC by Herman. Mu — Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

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Came home tonight to find the most unlikely collection of bugs imaginable on my doorstep.  Everything from dandruff to this big red lobster-lookin thing that looks like more than a match for any fish I’ve ever caught.  Really nice looking set of flies, and quite a few patterns I’ve never even heard of.  Considering the number of people who claimed to be beginners, I am really impressed by how nice these things all look.  Of course there were a couple that were conspicuous by their absence.  All drop-outs have to tie double next year! ;

Question:

Hi I

Question:

For any of you who haven’t read the book it is a fun read.  Nice way to spend a couple of those cold winter nights.  Here is part of my entry from "Books of the Black Bass. "Author says he was "raised in the Redneck Way of Fishing."  What he was saying is that numbers and size of fish caught became more important than anything else, thus turning his hobby into work.  Raines grew up in Alabama fishing for Bass, bluegill, crappie, etc.  There is some fly fishing for trout in this book but there is more about the Largemouth and Smallmouth Bass than any other fish.  As you wander through the book you find stories on ex-presidents of the United States, fly fishing legends such as Wulff, Marinaro, McClane, Fox, Kreh, and some Bass world notables such as Ray Scott and Rick Clunn.  Author relates a couple of instances where Scott suffered from foot in the mouth disease as he tried to help his friend, President George Bush, get re-elected.  Raines fished for Bass with Bush although throughout the book he is critical of Hoover, Reagan and other republican presidents.  Time is spent with all the fishing presidents from Hoover and Cleveland down to George Bush and Jimmy Carter.  He speaks out on everyone he writes about and is not afraid to take on the bureaucrats, all in all, an enjoyable read." Clyde Black Bass Book Collector http://members.aol.com/BassBks/index.html

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I currently have for sale a nice copy of "Fly Fishing Through the Midlife Crisis" by Howell Raines. A very clean softcover copy, published in 1994 by Anchor Books. The 352 page book is fresh and clean inside and out, except for a gift inscription inside the front cover. Available for to reserve. Thanks, and best regards. Dave    http://www.newsfeeds.com       The Largest Usenet Servers in the World!

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Question:

I’m an italian fly fisherman,i will be in Vancouver for the next August i need some address of fly fishing shops, thanks Massimiliano

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I’m an italian fly fisherman,i will be in Vancouver for the next August i need some address of fly fishing shops, thanks Massimiliano i do not know which vancouver you are asking about (B.C. or WA), both have great fishing nearby.  if you meant vancouver, wa you might try The Greased Line Fly Shop at 360-573-9383.  i have been in a couple times and they are knowledgeable in the ways of steelhead. Enjoy the west coast while you’re out here.  If you meant BC, forget this message

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I’m an italian fly fisherman,i will be in Vancouver for the next August i need some address of fly fishing shops, thanks Massimiliano

If Vancouver BC: Babcock’s 931-5044 Michael & Young’s 588-2833 Outdoors unlimited 463-0707 Ruddick’s 434-2420(Burnaby) or 681-3747 (Granville Island – downtown) Terminal Tackle 536-4665 B.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m an italian fly fisherman,i will be in Vancouver for the next August i need some address of fly fishing shops, thanks Massimiliano If Vancouver BC: Babcock’s 931-5044 Michael & Young’s 588-2833 Outdoors unlimited 463-0707 Ruddick’s 434-2420(Burnaby) or 681-3747 (Granville Island – downtown) Terminal Tackle 536-4665 B.

Ruddicks in Burnaby will be moving soon.  They have a sale on stuff ’til the end of the month. — The views expressed are my own and does not represent those of my employer.

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  Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   Ruddicks in Burnaby will be moving soon.  They have a sale on stuff ’til   the end of the month.

How does (did) the Burnaby branch compare to the Granville Island store in terms of selection etc.  I’ve never been to that branch. thanks,         -tony — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html email: replace the "this_address_is_wrong" with "tgades"

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SNIP How does (did) the Burnaby branch compare to the Granville Island store in terms of selection etc.  I’ve never been to that branch. thanks,         -tony — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html email: replace the "this_address_is_wrong" with "tgades"

Burnaby store is older, larger, more stuff, more selection, less swanky.  They also offer fly tying classes there.                         -cheers — The views expressed are my own and does not represent those of my employer.

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:   Ruddicks in Burnaby will be moving soon.  They have a sale on stuff ’til :   the end of the month. : How does (did) the Burnaby branch compare to the Granville Island : store in terms of selection etc.  I’ve never been to that branch. The store out in Burnaby was "the big one", while the one on Granville Island was a small one meant to snag a few bucks from the large number of folks who go down to the island daily. Not certain why they’re closing out that location. I like Michael & Young; I also visit a little place called "Hanson’s" (perhaps "Hansen’s") in the high-rent district in downtown Van (it’s on Hornby, I believe, only a couple of blocks from my employer’s corporate offices in the Waterfron Centre). Not big, few tying supplies, but you can buy a rod and a few flies, or book a guide who can speak Japanese or Cantonese or German. — 3798 Woodland Drive     voice: (250) 368-9315 Trail, BC               data:  (250) 368-9341

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For Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada I would recommend my favorite, Michael & Young Flyshop in Surrey, a suburb of Vancouver.(604-588-2833) The shop is a short walk (1/2 mile) from the Surrey skytrain station by Surrey Centre Mall (30 min. skytrain ride from downtown).  They supply equipment and excellent advice to flyfishermen looking for action locally, at  not too distant hotspots like Kamloops, Merritt, or Vancouver Island (2-3 hrs drive) or even in exotic places like Mexico.  Ruddicks Fly Shop in Burnaby (another suburb) may be closer and is supposed to provide similar service, though I haven’t been there. (604-434-2420) Hope you enjoy your trip. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m an italian fly fisherman,i will be in Vancouver for the next August i need some address of fly fishing shops,

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I’m an italian fly fisherman,i will be in Vancouver for the next August i need some address of fly fishing shops, thanks Massimiliano

For Vancouver BC try Hanson’s Fishing Outfitters, 102-580 Hornby Street, in downtown Vancouver. Ph 604 684 8988.  They also have a web site but I don’t know the URL. Peter Sealy

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Question:

Hi, I am looking to buy a new fly rod.  Any suggestions or comments on certain brands of fly rods?  I would like to buy a rod under $300.00. Thanks, Ben Grady

I’d try a St. Croix Legend for around $200 you’re getting a great rod. The seats are kinda shitty but they fish just fine. Powell signature series is also nice and so are Loomis GL3. If you’re really tight like me try building one. You can get a kit through Angler’s Workshop in WA for about $150, I’ve buildt 2 of their " house" brand rods which were old IM6 blanks dumped by Loomis a few years ago.

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Hi, I am looking to buy a new fly rod.  Any suggestions or comments on certain brands of fly rods?  I would like to buy a rod under $300.00. Thanks, Ben Grady

Sage DS       Gene

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Regarding a fly rod for under $300, I spend a month every summer fishing the Livingston area of Montana and have used a rod that may suit you very well.  I have a 8′6" 5 weight Reddington rod that I enjoy.  It’s pretty fast and may load better (fish better) with a 6 weight line.  The "plus" is that it has a lifetime guarantee and over-the-counter "no questions asked" replacement policy.  I broke mine on the Missouri last summer (closed it in my truck tailgate) and Reddington "red-labeled" (UPS Second Day Air) me a new one.  They were very professional.  They run about $225-275.  Also, try the Sage Discovery Series.

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For general all purpose use a 81/2 to 9foot sage II discovery rod will meet your requirements. But first go to a fly shop and test the rod first. All top notch shops will be glad to help you,if they dont leave.  

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I am looking to buy a new fly rod.  Any suggestions or comments on certain brands of fly rods?  I would like to buy a rod under $300.00. Easy formula answer.  If you do not know what "IM6" means, buy the cheapest rod marked IM6 that suits your needs (right length and weight, feels good in the hand etc.)  The price will be between $50 and $100.  (If you know what IM6 means, you wouldn’t have asked exactly this question.  This was the latest and most expensive new rod material about 10 years ago.) — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

the answer is not quie so easy as the reply suggested.  IM6 is still very much in use in high end rods.  Pick up an IM6 Winston, and you will be holding $500+ worth of rod in your hands (and worth every penny).  On he other hand, there are other generations of graphite, such as IMX, that will be in your price range. The answer to your inquiry is to ry out al sorts of rods until you find what feels best to you and is in your price range.  No one can tell you what will be best for you. Lyman Lyman G. Hughes Dallas, TX Ennis, MT

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Hi, I am looking to buy a new fly rod.  Any suggestions or comments on certain brands of fly rods?  I would like to buy a rod under $300.00. Thanks, Ben Grady

Response:

I am looking to buy a new fly rod.  Any suggestions or comments on certain brands of fly rods?  I would like to buy a rod under $300.00.

Easy formula answer.  If you do not know what "IM6" means, buy the cheapest rod marked IM6 that suits your needs (right length and weight, feels good in the hand etc.)  The price will be between $50 and $100.  (If you know what IM6 means, you wouldn’t have asked exactly this question.  This was the latest and most expensive new rod material about 10 years ago.) — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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Question:

for some interesting photos and stories check us out at: http://peacock.com/skindiver we accept your interesting photos too!  just attach them to an email with a description…… should we start a flyfishing section? — Everett Peacock peacock.com corporation http://peacock.com

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for some interesting photos and stories check us out at: http://peacock.com/skindiver we accept your interesting photos too!  just attach them to an email with a description…… should we start a flyfishing section? — Everett Peacock peacock.com corporation http://peacock.com

Everett, Should you start a fly fishing section? If there’s fly fishing to be done, then by all means, start a section.

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Question:

Wayne Trzyna writes: I don’t know whether C&R kills fish or not, but it sure makes ‘em nervous. Nonetheless, I think that C&R is not as hard on the resource as catch & keep. There are some very productive C&R fisheries located next to major population centers.  (Productive, that is, if one is skilled in outsmarting extremely nervous fish.)  I know of no such heavily fished but productive C&K fisheries (except during the first several hours after the hatchery truck drives away).

Well said. Love those Nervous fish !

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Charles Nahm writes: I can’t believe that 2% of Pat’s catch is killed!  Responsible C&R with artificial bait  should result in much lower kills than that depending on hook type & size and handling technique.  Throwing fish over your shoulder probable doesn’t count as responsible C&R. I saw this technique recently on a fishing show. As a fly fisherman I can’t remember the last fish I had die.   I guess maybe I’ve had a few on large streamers.  Way under 1 in a thousand though.   One thing you may have overlooked and that Pat Heron may have been factoring in Chip, is the fact that not all catch and release deaths are immediate.  If a fish receives serious stress from a prolonged struggle, it may be liable to swim away after you release it and die somewhere else in the lake.  Although it is very admirable on your part to desire or attain to a 99.9% successful release rate.

Pat never claimed that 2% of his fish die with C&R.  Pat’s name was invoked by someone using his catch record as a justification or rationalization for keeping fish. A serious C&R fisherman never prolongs the struggle.  Even +20 inch trout on size 20 flys can be landed in a few minutes by a skilled angler.  Again if you release the fish slowly (I’ve held fish for 5 minutes or more and had them rest in the lee of my boot for another five minutes) in gentle water your kill rate will be much less than 2%.  "Lassen Trout" a trophy pond (stocking genetically altered trophy trout in a couple of ponds) estimates their losses at under 0.2% (These are fish that are in the 22 inch to + 10 pound range).  They’ve been operating for several years so they got pretty good data by now.  They’ve got a large investment in these fish, they have to know how to manage their resource.

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I haven’t followed this whole thread because I was fishing in Montana when it started, but I would like to contribute a thought I proposed in our local TU newsletter a couple years ago. Most people who responded supported the idea, but it hasn’t really led to anything yet. I proposed that people who want to fish blue-ribbon, C&R waters should have to pay a slightly higher license fee, and that the additional revenue from that fee should support hatchery programs. I reason thus: planting more trout in heavily fished streams close to the cities would encourage the "yahoos" (as one poster described them) to fish nearer home to fill their freezers. Those same people would probably not pay the higher fee to go farther to catch fish they couldn’t keep. Now, some might object that those of us who supposedly care more about protecting the "natural" resource shouldn’t have to pay more than those who would simply rape and pillage, especially to support their habit. I don’t disagree, but I think we have to recognize some realities. We’ll never turn all trout streams into blue ribbon streams, and the demand for kill your limit and higher limits will continue to put political pressure on fish and game departments (in some states at least) to resist too much quality fishing as the rest of us define it. I look at it as willingness to pay for a privilege. Any thoughts? gc

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says: I guess that put and take locations help keep the yahoos out of the more restricted locations. The yahoos (your term) do their share of filling their stringers but in many cases this is important because these C&K streams often don’t have the water quality past early summer to support trout.  The yahoos do an efficient job of cleaning out the trout before the hot weather takes over.

Anyone who spends his free time trying to outsmart creatures with an immeasurably small IQ is a yahoo.  ’Guess that includes all of us. — -Wayne Trzyna

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Wayne, YAHOO!!!!!  The bottom line…we all qualify.                                 Scott

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I proposed that people who want to fish blue-ribbon, C&R waters should have to pay a slightly higher license fee, and that the additional revenue from that fee should support hatchery programs. I reason thus: planting more trout in heavily fished streams close to the cities would encourage the "yahoos" (as one poster described them) to fish nearer home to fill their freezers. Those same people would probably not pay the higher fee to go farther to catch fish they couldn’t keep. Now, some might object that those of us who supposedly care more about protecting the "natural" resource shouldn’t have to pay more than those who would simply rape and pillage, especially to support their habit. I don’t disagree, but I think we have to recognize some realities. We’ll never turn all trout streams into blue ribbon streams, and the demand for kill your limit and higher limits will continue to put political pressure on fish and game departments (in some states at least) to resist too much quality fishing as the rest of us define it. I look at it as willingness to pay for a privilege. Any thoughts?

Anyone, can pay an extra fee for the privilege to fish a blue ribbon fee. That doesn’t guarentee that the person is more concerned about protecting the natural resource.  How about requireing that applicant for the special privileges license answer a few questions about preserving.  Sort of a drivers license for fishing.  If someone is going to allowed access to a blue ribbon stream, they should at least know the proper technique for releasing fish so that it may be there another day.   John

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I have just a little bit more to add to the C&R thread. Suppose Pat Heron catches 1000 fish a year, and releases them all like a good guy, and he’s careful so 98% of them survive. That’s 20 dead fish per year. Now I catch well under 100 fish per year (*well*). Why should I feel guilty if I kill 10 of them? I’m not being nearly as hard on the resource as Pat. -Not catching too many fish in New Jersey, and proud of it too! -john — John Danskin                    | Computer Science Graduate Student (609) 258-5386                  | Graphics systems: network graphics & m-media (609) 258-1771 fax              | Escape from Princeton planned 8/94.

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-Not catching too many fish in New Jersey, and proud of it too!

Hence the reason some want to put bag limits on CAR. Though too complex to implement, water temps and flows certainly have an effect on CAR mortality, and should probably determine the limit. Reasonable anglers regulate themselves already. Thomas Gilg

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| | I have just a little bit more to add to the C&R thread. | | Suppose Pat Heron catches 1000 fish a year, and releases them | all like a good guy, and he’s careful so 98% of them survive. | | That’s 20 dead fish per year. | | Now I catch well under 100 fish per year (*well*). Why should | I feel guilty if I kill 10 of them? I’m not being nearly as hard | on the resource as Pat. | | -Not catching too many fish in New Jersey, and proud of it too! | -john John, You are exactly RIGHT.  If keeping 10 fish/year will harm a resource, then no one should probably be fishing there anyway. A guy who golfs at the same golfcourse every day will probably dig it up more in a year than a guy who golfs 4 times a year.   However, the golfing fantatic may also be alot more consciencious about how he treats the grounds because it is his major avocation.  In the case of fishing, the avid angler may be more likely to belong to or contribute to organizations (such as NCWF) which actively seek to protect and improve resources.  I will add that I have not seen any *floaters* from the fish that I have released this year (although some may die later).   I wonder what the statistics are on catch-immediate release vs.  catch – livewell – tournament weigh-in-release. If the tourney boys claim 98-percent, certainly immediate release is somewhat better. I also think that in the summer in the South, 98-percent survival is a bit too generous.  When the water gets into the 90’s there is damn little 02 disolved.  I feel that when you hook a bass in 20ft of water in the summer, they are in cooler slightly more oxygenated water.  Still 02 is low, and the fish quickly aquires a severe oxygen debt during the fight.  When this severly stressed bass is returned to the hottest surface layer, they can have trouble. This problem is compounded if the fish goes into the sizzling hot livewell (B.A.S.S. recommends that you ice down your livewell and use continuous aeration in the summer). After weigh-ins at local tournaments there are often several floaters.  The smart clubs police the release location and pick up the fish who don’t make it so as not to add fuel to the fire of public sentiment against tournament angling. Not catching that many in NC lately either and damn embarrased…                         -Pat. BTW, can anyone recommend a good captain/boat for a tuna/dolphin (aka dorado) charter out of NC?

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says: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (wayne trzyna) writes: | I don’t know whether C&R kills fish or not, but it sure makes ‘em nervous. | Nonetheless, I think that C&R is not as hard on the resource as catch &    . keep | There are some very productive C&R fisheries located next to major         n populatio | centers.  (Productive, that is, if one is skilled in outsmarting extremely | nervous fish.)  I know of no such heavily fished but productive C&K        s fisherie | (except during the first several hours after the hatchery truck drives     . away) | | — | | -Wayne Trzyna Wayne, This sounds like sports fishing at its best.  Why not cut out the middle-man and allow anglers to fish in the back of the DNR truck? I guess that put and take locations help keep the yahoos out of the more restricted locations.                        -Pat.

COUPLE OF THOUGHTS:  In Pennsylvania the DER spends huge amounts managing C&K fisheries.  They work very well and the state has a close-to-religious experience with the opening of trout season (deer season also).  The kids are out of school and many people use a vacation day to skip work (or get a mysterious illness that coincides with opening day). The yahoos (your term) do their share of filling their stringers but in many cases this is important because these C&K streams often don’t have the water quality past early summer to support trout.  The yahoos do an efficient job of cleaning out the trout before the hot weather takes over. I would say (in our area) that this fishery helps to cut down on those inclined to violate the special regs areas.  We have a full gamut of special regs waters including entire streams of C&R, flyfish only, trophy waters etc. The good part of all this:  most of the early season "fishermen" hang up their equipment about the time the good hatches start!!  I’ve also spent some great opening weekends on special regs waters without seeing another person…and catching many more (and better quality) fish than I could in a stocked stream. Around here we tend to use the stocked streams as entertainment.  Always fun to watch the people struggle with each other, fish the kids out of the water after falling in, …you get the idea.  Scott Maitland

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| I don’t know whether C&R kills fish or not, but it sure makes ‘em nervous. | Nonetheless, I think that C&R is not as hard on the resource as catch & keep. | There are some very productive C&R fisheries located next to major population | centers.  (Productive, that is, if one is skilled in outsmarting extremely | nervous fish.)  I know of no such heavily fished but productive C&K fisheries | (except during the first several hours after the hatchery truck drives away). | | — | | -Wayne Trzyna Wayne, This sounds like sports fishing at its best.  Why not cut out the middle-man and allow anglers to fish in the back of the DNR truck? I guess that put and take locations help keep the yahoos out of the more restricted locations.                         -Pat.

Response:

Suppose Pat Heron catches 1000 fish a year, and releases them all like a good guy, and he’s careful so 98% of them survive. That’s 20 dead fish per year. Now I catch well under 100 fish per year (*well*). Why should I feel guilty if I kill 10 of them? I’m not being nearly as hard on the resource as Pat.

I can’t believe that 2% of Pat’s catch is killed!  Responsible C&R with artificial bait  should result in much lower kills than that depending on hook type & size and handling technique.  Throwing fish over your shoulder probable doesn’t count as responsible C&R. I saw this technique recently on a fishing show. As a fly fisherman I can’t remember the last fish I had die.   I guess maybe I’ve had a few on large streamers.  Way under 1 in a thousand though.  

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| | This problem is compounded if the fish goes into the sizzling hot | | livewell (B.A.S.S. recommends that you ice down your livewell and | | use continuous aeration in the summer). | | I wonder about icing down your livewell too. I put a live pickerel into | an ice chest full of water and ice, and it died (convulsions and then nothing) | pretty much instantly. Temperature shocks in either direction can be harmful. | I guess you just have to use common sense when you decide hom much ice to | put in. I just wanted my pickerel to last until dinner time, and he (she it) | lasted just as well dead as he (she it) would have lasted alive. | | -john I agree,  I don’t think that pulling a bass from a 90f weedbed and throwing it into a 40f livewell (later to be released into 92f surface water) will do the bass alot of good. I also have had trouble with chain pickerel in the warmer months.  I have had several die while trying to practice C&R. I have found that they (along with lure of course) can get really tangled in a landing net having a fabric bag.  The little bit of time it takes to untangle them can be long enough for asphixiation. They can often be released much more quickly if landed by hand.  This exercise is not without its own perils.  I still laugh when I remember John sitting in the boat with the front treble of a Mann’s baby 1- stuck through his pants and into his leg, the back treble was in the mouth of a wildly thrashing 26-inch chain pickerel. (This was even more entertaining then the time when John was helping me remove the hook from a 7# channel cat, the cat grabbed his thumb and rolled and sprained his thumb).                         -Pat.

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It would be interesting to rank the relative importance of:      1. Hook selection            - single or treble            - wire diameter            - hook size      2. Playing time  **        - build up of acids            - exhaustion      3. Damage caused during fight            - damage from line strafing fish                 – body  **             – gills            - damage from fish hitting bottom or hard splash-downs            - setting hook to hard on small fish and launching them              airborne    Smolts especially susceptable.      4. Water conditions  *         – temperature            - pollution            - flow  *         – oxygenation      5. Condition of fish            - prespawn, postspawn, other times            - natural ability to handle stress      6. Handling of fish  *         – contact with gills  **        - damage to slime layer  *         – grip pressure resulting in internal damage  **        - time out of water – exposure to air            - damage caused from removing hook      7. Angler recovery period            - technique used for release      8. Post-Angler recovery period            - predators taking advantage of recovering fish  **        - Continued acid buildup and eventual recovery from Single "*" items seem to be touted in most CAR literature, and the "**" items have been called out in reports/studies I’ve seen as major factors. The better CAR studies track the fish for *days* after release, since most CAR mortality happens long after (12 hrs to 2 or 3 days) the angler releases the fish – even the zippy releases often turn fatal because of the continuing chemical buildups *after* CAR. Thomas Gilg

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Treble hooks should be banned, if anything.

I’ll second that!                                 Mark — <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Harris Space Systems            ::                         Melbourne, FL

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| This problem is compounded if the fish goes into the sizzling hot | livewell (B.A.S.S. recommends that you ice down your livewell and | use continuous aeration in the summer). I wonder about icing down your livewell too. I put a live pickerel into an ice chest full of water and ice, and it died (convulsions and then nothing) pretty much instantly. Temperature shocks in either direction can be harmful. I guess you just have to use common sense when you decide hom much ice to put in. I just wanted my pickerel to last until dinner time, and he (she it) lasted just as well dead as he (she it) would have lasted alive. -john

Response:

Though too complex to implement, water temps and flows certainly have an effect on CAR mortality, and should probably determine the limit. Reasonable anglers regulate themselves already.

How fish are handled has more to do with mortality than total number of fish caught and released.  At least, that is my intuition.   Treble hooks should be banned, if anything. — -Wayne Trzyna

Response: