Question:

And then, if you’re up to it, note the material preceding the quote that begins "I think its extremely bad form…". That’s "it’s," not "its." "It’s" is a contraction of "it is." That’s what I meant and that’s what I wrote. I didn’t intend the possessive "its." Most well educated native speakers know the difference. If you’re going to quote me, please quote me correctly, including standard punctuation as it apppears in the original material. If I get it wrong then please feel free to correct me, with an appropriate "[sic]" notation.

Whatta pputz. Wolfgang

Response:

That’s a great idea, George. This could be fun. I’m thinking of a series of stories describing in excruciating detail every cast, every stream pocket, and every one of the gourmet meals we enjoyed in four days.   :^) By the way, most of our fish were considerably larger than the fish I described out of that particular pool. If merely catching large fish was the objective we would have fished elsewhere. Bob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – God, people?!  How much milage can you milk out of a 3 inch fish conclave? One more post and you gents can apply to the Guiness clan. GG

Response:

God, people?!  How much milage can you milk out of a 3 inch fish conclave? One more post and you gents can apply to the Guiness clan. GG George, if you have nothing nice to say about the Eastern ‘Claves, then BLOW ME!

Come now (heh heh!).  I’ve caught plenty of 3" fish out west too…..

Response:

God, people?!  How much milage can you milk out of a 3 inch fish conclave? One more post and you gents can apply to the Guiness clan. GG George, if you have nothing nice to say about the Eastern ‘Claves, then BLOW ME!

I think it’s extremely bad form for someone from the West to bad-mouth Eastern Claves. And vice versa.

Response:

rw writes: I think it’s extremely bad form for someone from the West to bad-mouth Eastern Claves. And vice versa.

Yep.  Mainly because you get your litotes in a bunch.

Response:

rw writes: I think it’s extremely bad form for someone from the West to bad-mouth Eastern Claves. And vice versa. Yep.  Mainly because you get your litotes in a bunch.

ROFLMAO!!!! Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

I think it’s extremely bad form for someone from the West to bad-mouth Eastern Claves. And vice versa.

I didn’t say anything about ‘claves.  I just told cranky old fart out West to …..you know. Op

Response:

rw writes: I think it’s extremely bad form for someone from the West to bad-mouth Eastern Claves. And vice versa. Yep.  Mainly because you get your litotes in a bunch.

OK, Dave. You seem to think it’s just fine for an Easterner to bad-mouth Western Claves. Go at it.

Response:

rw writes: rw writes: I think it’s extremely bad form for someone from the West to bad-mouth Eastern Claves. And vice versa. Yep.  Mainly because you get your litotes in a bunch. OK, Dave. You seem to think it’s just fine for an Easterner to bad-mouth Western Claves. Go at it.

Where did I say that, rw?  Never said it.  You continue to put words in my mouth.  Oh, I get it.  It’s a figure of speech and a form of rhetoric called "lies."  Look it up.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – rw writes: rw writes: I think it’s extremely bad form for someone from the West to bad-mouth Eastern Claves. And vice versa. Yep.  Mainly because you get your litotes in a bunch. OK, Dave. You seem to think it’s just fine for an Easterner to bad-mouth Western Claves. Go at it. Where did I say that, rw?  Never said it.  You continue to put words in my mouth.  Oh, I get it.  It’s a figure of speech and a form of rhetoric called "lies."  Look it up.

Dave, you need to go back and reread what you wrote. Willi

Response:

rw writes: OK, Dave. You seem to think it’s just fine for an Easterner to bad-mouth Western Claves. Go at it. Where did I say that, rw?  Never said it.  You continue to put words in my mouth.  Oh, I get it.  It’s a figure of speech and a form of rhetoric called "lies."  Look it up.

You were (Must I say it?) whining that the Western Claves are not up to the camadraderie standards of the Eastern Claves. That came at a considerable surprise to me, and I suspect also to the several close friends I’ve made at the Western Claves. Before you get all teary-eyed about not having been able to fish with Warren at HF, let me remind you, once again, that Warren piloted the Gink boat, in which you wouldn’t have been caught dead.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – rw writes: rw writes: I think it’s extremely bad form for someone from the West to bad-mouth Eastern Claves. And vice versa. Yep.  Mainly because you get your litotes in a bunch. OK, Dave. You seem to think it’s just fine for an Easterner to bad-mouth Western Claves. Go at it. Where did I say that, rw?  Never said it.  You continue to put words in my mouth.  Oh, I get it.  It’s a figure of speech and a form of rhetoric called "lies."  Look it up. Dave, you need to go back and reread what you wrote. Willi

Read back up four posts before yours in the quoted material and see if you can figure out who decided the shit needed to be stirred one more time.  If you do it right, there will be no surprise.  And then, if you’re up to it, note the material preceding the quote that begins "I think its extremely bad form…". Well damn, it looks for all the world like a continuation of a long running tete a tete, don’t it?  But, if you take the time (and you can figure it out) you may also note that Stevie’s typical shithead comment did NOT come in response to anything Dave said (as he deliberately implied by his abuse of usenet convention), but instead followed a comment by Mark.  THEN, if you’re head hasn’t started throbbing too badly, you might want to follow what goes on here day in and day out, in which case you will possibly discover that there is a pattern here. Care to guess? Wolfgang

Response:

  you might want to follow what goes on here day in and day out, in which case you will possibly discover that there is a pattern here. Care to guess?

That RW puts a bug up your butt and you jump on anything RW says? Willi

Response:

 you might want to follow what goes on here day in and day out, in which case you will possibly discover that there is a pattern here. Care to guess? That RW puts a bug up your butt and you jump on anything RW says?

Bingo!

Response:

And then, if you’re up to it, note the material preceding the quote that begins "I think its extremely bad form…".

That’s "it’s," not "its." "It’s" is a contraction of "it is." That’s what I meant and that’s what I wrote. I didn’t intend the possessive "its." Most well educated native speakers know the difference. If you’re going to quote me, please quote me correctly, including standard punctuation as it apppears in the original material. If I get it wrong then please feel free to correct me, with an appropriate "[sic]" notation.

Response:

  You were (Must I say it?) whining that the Western Claves are not up to the camadraderie standards of the Eastern Claves. That came at a considerable surprise to me, and I suspect also to the several close friends I’ve made at the Western Claves. Before you get all teary-eyed about not having been able to fish with Warren at HF, let me remind you, once again, that Warren piloted the Gink boat, in which you wouldn’t have been caught dead.

I have to admit with pride R.W. that you certainly are a talented fly fisherman catching more fish than anyone.  Each day, you were "the man".  I had a lot of fun with you and wish to mention the Henry’s Fork Western Conclave was well worth the effort. It was a pleasure fishing with you r.w. Everyone should know Warren and you taught me how to fish a dropper with a bobber (WHOOPS! I mean) "indicator" which is something I’ve never done before.  However; now that we are home chasing Steelhead and other "critters of the deep" I’m back to the single nymphing with no indicators but the fly line.  Incidently, the steelhead fishing this year has been good.  Very good, in fact. Warren is an excellent guide.  He knows those rivers as well as me and probably better now.  Regardless, we have to do this again sometime r.w. Finally, Dave LaCourse?  You’re always welcome in the Gink Drift Boat, dead or alive.  There was a hatched buried at this Western Conclave and for that alone, I’m thankful.  There IS MORE to these get togethers than what meets the eye.  I had a great time. That’s for sure. GeorgeG.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You were (Must I say it?) whining that the Western Claves are not up to the camadraderie standards of the Eastern Claves. That came at a considerable surprise to me, and I suspect also to the several close friends I’ve made at the Western Claves. Before you get all teary-eyed about not having been able to fish with Warren at HF, let me remind you, once again, that Warren piloted the Gink boat, in which you wouldn’t have been caught dead. I have to admit with pride R.W. that you certainly are a talented fly fisherman catching more fish than anyone.  Each day, you were "the man". I had a lot of fun with you and wish to mention the Henry’s Fork Western Conclave was well worth the effort. It was a pleasure fishing with you r.w. Everyone should know Warren and you taught me how to fish a dropper with a bobber (WHOOPS! I mean) "indicator" which is something I’ve never done before.  However; now that we are home chasing Steelhead and other "critters of the deep" I’m back to the single nymphing with no indicators but the fly line.  Incidently, the steelhead fishing this year has been good.  Very good, in fact. Warren is an excellent guide.  He knows those rivers as well as me and probably better now.  Regardless, we have to do this again sometime r.w. Finally, Dave LaCourse?  You’re always welcome in the Gink Drift Boat, dead or alive.  There was a hatched (HATCHET! dang it.) buried at this Western

Conclave and for that – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – alone, I’m thankful.  There IS MORE to these get togethers than what meets the eye.  I had a great time. That’s for sure. GeorgeG.

Response:

I have to admit with pride R.W. that you certainly are a talented fly fisherman catching more fish than anyone.  Each day, you were "the man".  

That’s total bullshit, but I will tell you one thing from my heart. You showed up at the HF Clave. I didn’t think you would, but you did. Another thing, George, is that you deserve a lot of credit for lending your drift boat to Warren. That was generous. It’s helped him a lot. Now please, George, don’t start acting like an asshole on ROFF. We don’t need it. We have plenty of that.

Response:

  you might want to follow what goes on here day in and day out, in which case you will possibly discover that there is a pattern here. Care to guess? That RW puts a bug up your butt and you jump on anything RW says?  

Hm…..don’t understand?…..or just won’t deal with it?  Well, it hardly matters does it?   Ta ta. Wolfgang

Response:

When last we met our fearsome threesome, they were standing on Owl Creek Bridge – oops, make that bridge no. 2 across Hazel Creek. Wolfie was doing his chimney routine and both Messrs. Miller and Siebeneich had discovered that the only person with drinking water was your obedient servant. I generously gave them a full Platypus bag and they drank copiously of its contents. Neither of them asked why I didn’t drink any of the same stuff and they didn’t say anything about its taste. Nevertheless, we continued the march up to the Sawdust Pile campground beyond the third bridge where we stopped again. I reconnoitered the stream for a few minutes and came back to see Jeffie and Wolfie talking to a girl. Aha! The pulchritudinous Lana, thought I, as I walked over to make her acquaintance. Of course, upon seeing me she quickly felt the need to retrace her steps back downstream. Obviously a girl of great self-discipline. We continued on to the Bone Valley campsite about 5.7 miles from the lake. There we established the Bone Valley Villa that we would use for the next two nights. We set up the camp. Miller had a one-man tent, and Wolfgang and I shared Wolfgang’s palatial abode. Then each of us went different directions – Jeffie making his way upstream on Hazel Creek, Wolfie headed downstream to work his way back up Hazel, while I began working my way up Bone Valley Creek. Caught a couple of small parr-marked rainbows out of one pool but nothing larger than about three inches. Wolfie met me a little ways up stream. He had a lot more success than I was having, and it was interesting just watching him cast. We fished a couple of hundred yards up Bone Valley before returning to the Villa in time for cocktails before dinner. More to come . . . — http://rwpatton.home.netcom.com/

Response:

God, people?!  How much milage can you milk out of a 3 inch fish conclave? One more post and you gents can apply to the Guiness clan. GG

Response:

God, people?!  How much milage can you milk out of a 3 inch fish conclave? One more post and you gents can apply to the Guiness clan. GG

George, if you have nothing nice to say about the Eastern ‘Claves, then BLOW ME! Op

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When last we met our fearsome threesome, they were standing on Owl Creek Bridge – oops, make that bridge no. 2 across Hazel Creek. Wolfie was doing his chimney routine and both Messrs. Miller and Siebeneich had discovered that the only person with drinking water was your obedient servant. I generously gave them a full Platypus bag and they drank copiously of its contents. Neither of them asked why I didn’t drink any of the same stuff and they didn’t say anything about its taste. Nevertheless, we continued the march up to the Sawdust Pile campground beyond the third bridge where we stopped again. I reconnoitered the stream for a few minutes and came back to see Jeffie and Wolfie talking to a girl. Aha! The pulchritudinous Lana, thought I, as I walked over to make her acquaintance. Of course, upon seeing me she quickly felt the need to retrace her steps back downstream. Obviously a girl of great self-discipline. We continued on to the Bone Valley campsite about 5.7 miles from the lake. There we established the Bone Valley Villa that we would use for the next two nights. We set up the camp. Miller had a one-man tent, and Wolfgang and I shared Wolfgang’s palatial abode. Then each of us went different directions – Jeffie making his way upstream on Hazel Creek, Wolfie headed downstream to work his way back up Hazel, while I began working my way up Bone Valley Creek. Caught a couple of small parr-marked rainbows out of one pool but nothing larger than about three inches. Wolfie met me a little ways up stream. He had a lot more success than I was having, and it was interesting just watching him cast. We fished a couple of hundred yards up Bone Valley before returning to the Villa in time for cocktails before dinner. More to come . . .

Hm…….well Bob, I think I still like my version better for raw excitement and suspense…….but I’ll grant you’ve got the edge in the verifiable historical detail department.       Carry on. Wolfgang who reserves the right to add color commentary from time to time.

Response:

"Wolfgang Siebeneich" wrote Hm…….well Bob, I think I still like my version better for raw excitement and suspense…….but I’ll grant you’ve got the edge in the verifiable historical detail department.       Carry on. Wolfgang who reserves the right to add color commentary from time to time.

Damn. If I’d known I was committing "verifiable historical detail" I’d have thought twice. After all, the real sense of the trip is not in the verifiable historical detail. It’s the wisps of vapor drifting herpetologically – yes, dammit, herpetologically – through the trees. Bob

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Wolfgang Siebeneich" wrote Hm…….well Bob, I think I still like my version better for raw excitement and suspense…….but I’ll grant you’ve got the edge in the verifiable historical detail department.       Carry on. Wolfgang who reserves the right to add color commentary from time to time. Damn. If I’d known I was committing "verifiable historical detail" I’d have thought twice. After all, the real sense of the trip is not in the verifiable historical detail. It’s the wisps of vapor drifting herpetologically – yes, dammit, herpetologically – through the trees. Bob

Yes……but…..still, tis the information age and historians as yet will merely be another turgid footnote. Wolfgang thus is it ever for those who serve the muse…….lana…….where art thou?      :(

Response:

Question:

Last fall I had the good fortune of meeting a gentleman at a local craft fair in NH who had a 6′x6′ display of pictures of some amazing size fish that he had caught. I guessed he was a hunter and fisherman of some sort, but it turned out that he was a Bush Pilot for many years, taking people in and out of remote areas in Canada. He had pictures and pictures of 10+ pound brook trout and deer with simply huge racks. I was amazed. He said he had gone where few people ever get a chance to go in a lifetime, and he was bursting with excitement and pride when he told his stories. He had since stopped bush piloting, due to health concerns, but his dream is to once again get back into a plane, or at the very least help some people who need information about adverturing into these remote spots. The amazing pictures he showed me, reminded me of my childhood days when I used to go hiking and fishing in the remote mountain streams of Vermont and catch some wonderful spring brook trout myself. I understood why he was so excited to tell his stories. At the time, my girlfriend and I were putting together a website to sell Vermont products, and even though he is from NH, we agreed to help him promote his book, Adventures of a Bush Pilot, through our site. If anyone is interested in Bush Piloting information or perhaps Mr. Laporte’s book, Adventures of a Bush Pilot, you can send us an email, or visit our website. The book is accessible through a link on our site’s left sidebar. Mr. Laporte would be glad to share his bush piloting advice as well. Thanks, Rick and Susan Vermonters at heart! http://www.piecesofvermont.com Before you buy.

Response:

Based on the topic, I’m going to share an experience I heard of a bush pilot. A friend and co-worker of mine was born and raised in Alaska.  He has his ASEL certificate and was constantly flying into hard to reach areas to do some serious hunting and fishing.  On one occasion, he landed on a sandbar in a nearly dried up river bed in order to hunt along the waterline.  Well, it so happens that the FAA somehow witnessed him landing there and cited him for not having the proper certificate to fly the model plane.  In other words, because he landed a river bed, the FAA cited him for flying a sea-plane without being certified for airplane, single engine sea.  But, the plane has was flying had wheels and was normally considered a "land plane." (I wish I could remember the actual plane.)  What are your impressions about being cited for operating a plane that you are certified to operate? Remember, it was a "land" plane and he landed on the dried river bed, not the water. — Sometimes opportunity pounds. Open the door; Link Below. http://www.rexall.com/nonprescriptionfortune Independent Business Owner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last fall I had the good fortune of meeting a gentleman at a local craft fair in NH who had a 6′x6′ display of pictures of some amazing size fish that he had caught. I guessed he was a hunter and fisherman of some sort, but it turned out that he was a Bush Pilot for many years, taking people in and out of remote areas in Canada. He had pictures and pictures of 10+ pound brook trout and deer with simply huge racks. I was amazed. He said he had gone where few people ever get a chance to go in a lifetime, and he was bursting with excitement and pride when he told his stories. He had since stopped bush piloting, due to health concerns, but his dream is to once again get back into a plane, or at the very least help some people who need information about adverturing into these remote spots. The amazing pictures he showed me, reminded me of my childhood days when I used to go hiking and fishing in the remote mountain streams of Vermont and catch some wonderful spring brook trout myself. I understood why he was so excited to tell his stories. At the time, my girlfriend and I were putting together a website to sell Vermont products, and even though he is from NH, we agreed to help him promote his book, Adventures of a Bush Pilot, through our site. If anyone is interested in Bush Piloting information or perhaps Mr. Laporte’s book, Adventures of a Bush Pilot, you can send us an email, or visit our website. The book is accessible through a link on our site’s left sidebar. Mr. Laporte would be glad to share his bush piloting advice as well. Thanks, Rick and Susan Vermonters at heart! http://www.piecesofvermont.com Before you buy.

Response:

He never told me who actually spotted him landing, but Alaska does have alternating regulations on when you can take your game depending on the time of year. For example:  When bear hunting, most of the time after the kill, the hunter must skin, gut, and package the bear meat, but not take it with on the first day.  But, during spawning season, the bears eat so much fish that the meat tastes fishy, so you can take the meat the same day it was killed.  I’ve never hunted in Alaska, so I can’t get more specific than restating stories that my friend has told me. I’ll email him and see if I can get him into this newsgroup. — Sometimes opportunity pounds. Open the door; Link Below. http://www.rexall.com/nonprescriptionfortune Independent Business Owner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’re kidding right?  The rating says nothing about where you land, only what equipment you can fly. Now, if it was Fish and Game that watched him and he took game "same day airborne" he could be in "a heap of trouble". — Dale L. Falk Cessna 182A N5912B http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

Response:

You’re kidding right?  The rating says nothing about where you land, only what equipment you can fly. Now, if it was Fish and Game that watched him and he took game "same day airborne" he could be in "a heap of trouble". – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Based on the topic, I’m going to share an experience I heard of a bush pilot. A friend and co-worker of mine was born and raised in Alaska.  He has his ASEL certificate and was constantly flying into hard to reach areas to do some serious hunting and fishing.  On one occasion, he landed on a sandbar in a nearly dried up river bed in order to hunt along the waterline.  Well, it so happens that the FAA somehow witnessed him landing there and cited him for not having the proper certificate to fly the model plane.  In other words, because he landed a river bed, the FAA cited him for flying a sea-plane without being certified for airplane, single engine sea.  But, the plane has was flying had wheels and was normally considered a "land plane." (I wish I could remember the actual plane.)  What are your impressions about being cited for operating a plane that you are certified to operate? Remember, it was a "land" plane and he landed on the dried river bed, not the water.

– Dale L. Falk Cessna 182A N5912B http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

Response:

Question:

I’ve noticed that tippit and leaders are sold in two different ratings.  They are either given a pound rating or an X rating.  Does anybody have a conversion table for these different rating methods. I normally use a 2 or 3 lb. tippit for trout and a 4 or 5 lb. tippet for bass. I’d sure like to be able to see an X rating and know what the pound equivilant is, or the other way around. Thanks, Bob

Response:

Hi Bob and all you ROFFers out there, Bob, the pound test is suppose to be the breaking strength of the line and ‘X’ is relating to the diameter of the line. 0x = 0.011" 1x = 0.010" 2x = 0.009" 3x = 0.008" 4x = 0.007" 5x = 0.006" 6x = 0.005" 7x = 0.004" Old 6x tippet 30 years ago was 1 3/4 pound test. Now it is over 3 pound test? I think it is a good idea to go by diameter rather than pound test in relating to fly size or fishing conditions  because it is a constant. The manufacturer can put anything on the spool they want to as far as pound test goes unless it is special IGFA rated line. For trout, we use mostly 5x and 6x for tippet on dry flies around here in Nor Cal. Our most popular and average size dry fly is a #14. For wet flies/nymphs for trout we use mostly 3x, 4x and 5x depending on the fly size and fishing conditions. Again, our most popular, best selling and most useful size nymph is a #14. Early season we might use larger #6/8/10 nymph with a 3x tippet. Most of the time anglers are using #14s with 4x and then in late summer and on spring creeks the average is a #16 with 5x and smaller. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA http://www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve noticed that tippit and leaders are sold in two different ratings. They are either given a pound rating or an X rating.  Does anybody have a conversion table for these different rating methods. I normally use a 2 or 3 lb. tippit for trout and a 4 or 5 lb. tippet for bass. I’d sure like to be able to see an X rating and know what the pound equivilant is, or the other way around. Thanks, Bob

Response:

The biggest problem represented by leader diametres that are too thick is the impact the thick leaders have on the flies drift.

____  I had said this Tony.  That is why I opt for finer leaders.  It is a distinct advantage and does fool more fish.  Especially if your knots are tight and perfect. Mr. G. I too opt for as fine a leader as I can see, and there-in lies a problem. These 50 year old eyes have been tormented by the sun for too long, so tying tight and perfect knots, is an oxymoron. Probably why in recent times I have opted for a full leader length, with no taper. I do not know if Drennon is available in the US, but I have found it to have little or no ‘line flash’, and is very abrasion resistant. The only problem I have found is that it has little stretch, so if you are on a reasonable fish, say around five or six pound or more, you have to be really careful on the strike, or you will pop the leader. — Tony Bishop  New Zealand http://bishfish.co.nz

Response:

 snipped to save room: The biggest problem represented by leader diametres that are too thick is the impact the thick leaders have on the flies drift.

____  I had said this Tony.  That is why I opt for finer leaders.  It is a distinct advantage and does fool more fish.  Especially if your knots are tight and perfect. Mr. G. http://www.gink.com/gg_knotperfect.html

Response:

Hi Tony, I will tell Joe Shirshac that you are catching some good ones. Joe is taking a group of our customers to your area in May to fish with Tim McCarthy again. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA http://www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The line diametre and kilo rating is a problem when you add in very thin lines from Europe such as Drennon – primarily developed for chasing carp. The visibility thing in my experience is not as big a problem as some may think. A fish simply cannot connect the fact that the line is connected to the fly, and even if it does  you asking for us to believe the fish then somehow surmises the line represents some form of danger. To believe that moves us into the realm of anthropomorphism. And yes I have caught trout on black leaders. The biggest problem represented by leader diametres that are too thick is the impact the thick leaders have on the flies drift. By the way Bill K, the fishing is very good right now, in the North Island. Some wonderful rainbows and browns being taken in the Central North Island lakes and rivers. — Tony Bishop  Taupo, New Zealand http://bishfish.co.nz

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The line diametre and kilo rating is a problem when you add in very thin lines from Europe such as Drennon – primarily developed for chasing carp. The visibility thing in my experience is not as big a problem as some may think. A fish simply cannot connect the fact that the line is connected to the fly, and even if it does  you asking for us to believe the fish then somehow surmises the line represents some form of danger. To believe that moves us into the realm of anthropomorphism. And yes I have caught trout on black leaders. The biggest problem represented by leader diametres that are too thick is the impact the thick leaders have on the flies drift. By the way Bill K, the fishing is very good right now, in the North Island. Some wonderful rainbows and browns being taken in the Central North Island lakes and rivers. — Tony Bishop  Taupo, New Zealand http://bishfish.co.nz

ever fished over hard hitted waters such as found in certain places on this planet Tony? All forms of life can be conditioned to associate danger to some definite stimulus.  A leader line pattern that leads to a fly, recognized by a free rising trout that has been fooled and released many times does in fact, associate that ‘bug’ with a connection to danger.  I remember two particular free risers that you could not fool in a hundred years Tony because of the leader connection.  They would literally lift your fly upon their noses, lower it back into the water, swim to the right or left an inch or so and then take a natural. So in response to your question, yes!  There is proven, distinct connection to the realm of anthropomorphism.  This factor does not require logic but only based on conditioned reflex reactions due to EXPERIENCE.  It doesn’t necessarily need to be attributed to humans, but naturally, humans can be conditioned to respond to reflex experiences Tony. The eye of a trout is one of the better seeing mechanisms in the animal kingdom.  Of course there are better ones but underwater, the trout is indeed visually armed to the max! LOL! — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/  Updates http://www.gink.com/chat Flyfishing Conversations 6:00 PM PST till after midnight.

Response:

The line diametre and kilo rating is a problem when you add in very thin lines from Europe such as Drennon – primarily developed for chasing carp. The visibility thing in my experience is not as big a problem as some may think. A fish simply cannot connect the fact that the line is connected to the fly, and even if it does  you asking for us to believe the fish then somehow surmises the line represents some form of danger. To believe that moves us into the realm of anthropomorphism. And yes I have caught trout on black leaders. The biggest problem represented by leader diametres that are too thick is the impact the thick leaders have on the flies drift. By the way Bill K, the fishing is very good right now, in the North Island. Some wonderful rainbows and browns being taken in the Central North Island lakes and rivers. — Tony Bishop  Taupo, New Zealand http://bishfish.co.nz

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Bob and all you ROFFers out there, Bob, the pound test is suppose to be the breaking strength of the line and ‘X’ is relating to the diameter of the line. 0x = 0.011" 1x = 0.010" 2x = 0.009" 3x = 0.008" 4x = 0.007" 5x = 0.006" 6x = 0.005" 7x = 0.004" Old 6x tippet 30 years ago was 1 3/4 pound test. Now it is over 3 pound test? I think it is a good idea to go by diameter rather than pound test in relating to fly size or fishing conditions  because it is a constant. The manufacturer can put anything on the spool they want to as far as pound test goes unless it is special IGFA rated line. For trout, we use mostly 5x and 6x for tippet on dry flies around here in Nor Cal. Our most popular and average size dry fly is a #14. For wet flies/nymphs for trout we use mostly 3x, 4x and 5x depending on the fly size and fishing conditions. Again, our most popular, best selling and most useful size nymph is a #14. Early season we might use larger #6/8/10 nymph with a 3x tippet. Most of the time anglers are using #14s with 4x and then in late summer and on spring creeks the average is a #16 with 5x and smaller. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA http://www.kiene.com

_____  I can add to this in how to regard the information you’ve offered here Bill and I bow to your superior knowledge on what and why and how come customers usually order tippet materials.  Actually, it is one of the most incomplete subjects remaining in fly fishing, believe it or not. As materials get stronger, the diameters should have gone down to accommodate those who still desire to use 1.5 test tippets and not 3# tippets of the same diameter.  This is going to sound like a juggling act, but it holds water for me and many others out there across America. I am often asked, how does one determine what tippet size to use on any one hook size?  In the days of yore, when a .004 was still 1.5 LB test, I could advise with confidence that if you can put a tippet through the eye of the hook you’re using THREE times, its probably the right diameter tippet for that fly. Yet, I may not want a 3# test tippet of .004 thousands anymore because I may want to use a small fly that requires only a #24 or 26 hook and I may want only a 1# test tippet for very personal reasons.  Today, I would rather have the option to have a .003 diameter tippet or even a .002 diameter tippet for sippers while still enjoying the invisibility and the greater strengths for these super small diameters of .75 – 1 Pound test for very small flies. Invisibility is determined by tippet diameter, foremost.  Then color and refraction of light come next, but often . . . you can use even a pure black leader but if the diameter is very small . . . it will catch and fool fish.  Of course, this is a radical example but it is true. Diameter is foremost and poundage second in my book in how I fish but the two are a tight marriage required to fool fish who are keen of eye.   Smaller diameter leaders also allow flies to twist and turn more naturally on and under the water.  Given a choice between using a 3# test tippet of .004 or a 1.5# test tippet of only .003 I will opt for the 1.5/.033 tippet and I hope its Maxima. Mr. G. — http://www.gink.com/  Updates http://www.gink.com/chat Flyfishing Conversations 6:00 PM PST till after midnight.

Response:

Question:

Where can I get a good online map that shows the rivers in the Glacier NP area? Thanks in advance!

Don’t know about an online map.  What you really want is the book "Fly Fishing the Blackfeet Country" by Robert F. Fairchild.  I think the best fly fishing in the lower 48 is in the lakes of the Blackfeet reservation, which is everything east of Glacier for about an hours drive.  The rivers of the Blackfeet Res also have some decent fishing if you are into smaller fish.  If fishing is your thing instead of site seeing, I wouldn’t even bother with the park proper.  A tribal fishing permit costs about $35/yr.  No state licenses are required while on the reservation.

Response:

Where can I get a good online map that shows the rivers in the Glacier NP area? Thanks in advance!

Response:

writes: Where can I get a good online map that shows the rivers in the Glacier NP area? Thanks in advance!

Hey, Timbo.  Judging by the address, you should probably handle this one. Is he family?   <G Dave L.      —–  Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free Usenet News via the Web  —–      —–  http://newsone.net/ —  Discussions on every subject. —–    NewsOne.Net prohibits users from posting spam.  If this or other posts

Response:

Question:

Well, it’s been a couple weeks since the idea lit up, caught fire briefly and fizzled, so I thought I’d try posting a reminder. For you newbies: I am compiling a directory of ROFF members, initially to allow ROFF members travelling to another state to maybe look up a fellow member to share some local knowledge, some time on a stream or a cold beer together.   To participate, send me your screen name and state.   Other info, such as you real name, home city, age, home waters, occupation, etc. is optional (most so far have shared most of these).   You can surrender as little anonymity as you are comfortable with.   None of this info will be shared by me outside this group or with commercial concerns. For the "experienced" ROFFians: Awright goddammit, where the hell are ya?   A lousy 50 names in three weeks? What about the rest of ya?   You know who you are!   Seriously though, I am hoping some of the discussions about file size, databases or other esoteric computer shit didn’t put anybody off (responses dropped like a stone shortly after that).   I’d like to see this grow to a potentially useful tool for everybody.   If you post regularly or even occasionally, send me your info (see above). Joe F.

Response:

Ok Joe, Didn’t see the last thread, musta been fishn’ or drinkn’ or sleeping as far as I know? Tim Apple Rockford IL Good smallmouth and some trout(top secret on the trout thing, about 5 people in the world know where they are.) Also finally figured out how to get walleye on the fly, good fishing for em’ to. I’d give you my address but I’m going in the Coast Guard soon and it wouldn’t do ya much good unless you cruise by in the next 2 months or so. see ya Tim Apple — "Bamboo is Better"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, it’s been a couple weeks since the idea lit up, caught fire briefly and fizzled, so I thought I’d try posting a reminder. For you newbies: I am compiling a directory of ROFF members, initially to allow ROFF members travelling to another state to maybe look up a fellow member to share some local knowledge, some time on a stream or a cold beer together.   To participate, send me your screen name and state.   Other info, such as you real name, home city, age, home waters, occupation, etc. is optional (most so far have shared most of these).   You can surrender as little anonymity as you are comfortable with.   None of this info will be shared by me outside this group or with commercial concerns. For the "experienced" ROFFians: Awright goddammit, where the hell are ya?   A lousy 50 names in three weeks? What about the rest of ya?   You know who you are!   Seriously though, I am hoping some of the discussions about file size, databases or other esoteric computer shit didn’t put anybody off (responses dropped like a stone shortly after that).   I’d like to see this grow to a potentially useful tool for everybody.   If you post regularly or even occasionally, send me your info (see above). Joe F.

Response:

Question:

I want information about flyfishing on the seychelles.

Response:

Three of us have booked a trip to the Seychelles next March through Indian Ocean Angling Adventures.  We need 2 or 3 more to join us or we will have to cancel as its too much $$ for three.  If you might be interested e-mail me at different groups who have gone there and they all said the same thing …way better than XMAS Island. Steve

Response:

I want information about flyfishing on the seychelles.

You can get all the info you want from us – Anna and martin lewis.  Fax us on (248) 344266 or We discovered and developed flyfishing in the seychelles – been in the business now for 10 years. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

I want information about flyfishing on the seychelles. Dear Lasse,

We have been running a fishing operation in the Seychelles for 10 years.  For the past two years we have concentrated on saltwater flyfishing specifically for bone fish and trevally. We have been very successful over the past two years and now have four world records pending ratification. If you wish to visit our website – it will soon be changed – you will gain an idea of what we do.  Go to altavista and type in seychelles + flyfishing.  Tam Tam should come up. Look forward to hearing from you. Regards Martin and Anna Lewis Tam Tam Tel +248 344266 Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Question:

Hi All, I was wondering about the quality of fishing on a couple of lesser known rivers in BC. One is Cayoose Creek which runs east out of Duffy Lake on the Pemberton-Lillooet road? The other is Gerrard Creek which runs out of Trout lake in the Kootneys. Cayoose is close enough for some nice weekend work but I am thinking about buying some property right by Gerrard. Thanks in advance, Kent Signature!?! Damn it Jim, I’m a lurker not a liternary agent!!

Response:

Hi All, I was wondering about the quality of fishing on a couple of lesser known rivers in BC. One is Cayoose Creek which runs east out of Duffy Lake on the Pemberton-Lillooet road?

it is reported to have a modest population of small rainbows and a small number of steelhead in the Spring. The other is Gerrard Creek which runs out of Trout lake in the Kootneys.

closed to fishing as this is (surprisingly) the spawning and nursery grounds for the Gerrard Rainbow of Kootenay and Trout Lakes. Cayoose is close enough for some nice weekend work but I am thinking about buying some property right by Gerrard. Thanks in advance, Kent Signature!?! Damn it Jim, I’m a lurker not a liternary agent!!

Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

Response:

Question:

The Fly Fisherman is a true FF shop they can accomidate you for fresh and saltwater, they also have a store in Titusville (you can FF for redfish in the indian river and mosquito lagoon area). Dominic Pruitt Cary, NC (Relatives in Orlando area)

Response:

Dear Joseph                 There are two excellent fishing shops Jumbo Sports and The Fly Fisherman, they are both in the yellow pages. I visitedthem while i was on holiday. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have received a very interesting job offer in the Orlando area (zip 32750)… but I’m trying to check some things out before I commit myself. I know the fishing is good down there… but what’s the flt-fishing presence like? Any good shops in the area? Any tying supplies for freshwater? I may be headed down for an interview shortly… any place I should scope out while I’m there? Thanks! — Joe Ellis         o/~ The Synthetic Filker o/~ |   TesserAct Studios  ()X  Darwin (;        Now on the Web at      |  Cincinnati, OH 45240  //~~~LL~~~~LL~  http://shell.idt.net/~ellis69 | New Dimensions In Filk!   If you race a train to the crossing and the train gets there first,      the train wins. If you get there first, the train STILL wins.

Response:

I have received a very interesting job offer in the Orlando area (zip 32750)… but I’m trying to check some things out before I commit myself. I know the fishing is good down there… but what’s the flt-fishing presence like? Any good shops in the area? Any tying supplies for freshwater? I may be headed down for an interview shortly… any place I should scope out while I’m there? Thanks! — Joe Ellis         o/~ The Synthetic Filker o/~ |   TesserAct Studios  ()X  Darwin (;        Now on the Web at      |  Cincinnati, OH 45240  //~~~LL~~~~LL~  http://shell.idt.net/~ellis69 | New Dimensions In Filk!   If you race a train to the crossing and the train gets there first,      the train wins. If you get there first, the train STILL wins.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have received a very interesting job offer in the Orlando area (zip 32750)… but I’m trying to check some things out before I commit myself. I know the fishing is good down there… but what’s the flt-fishing presence like? Any good shops in the area? Any tying supplies for freshwater? I may be headed down for an interview shortly… any place I should scope out while I’m there? Thanks! — Joe Ellis         o/~ The Synthetic Filker o/~ |   TesserAct Studios  ()X  Darwin (;        Now on the Web at      |  Cincinnati, OH 45240  //~~~LL~~~~LL~  http://shell.idt.net/~ellis69 | New Dimensions In Filk!   If you race a train to the crossing and the train gets there first,      the train wins. If you get there first, the train STILL wins.

       One thing you’ll learn is that Orlado is just one area, there are many cities in the area and all are back to back so to speak. Check the phone book and don’t be put off by the city names. There is an Orvis shop in Winter Park, 2 Bitters shops, all kinds of mall shops, KMart sells fly fishing poppers, flys and some low level gear as does WallMart. Fern Park, Altamonte Springs, Winter Park are some of the towns heading north on either I-4 or 17/92 all really close together. There are numerous bait and tackle shops all over the place and Titusville, Cape Canaveral is also close. as to bait and tackle "The big Bass hole is about 6 blocks from my house in Sanford. It’s on lake Monrow (the St.John’s runs through it.) What you’ll need is an 8wt at least for bass and small saltwater possibly a 3wt for bream and a short 5wt for general streamside among trees etc. There are so many shops and sporting goods stores that I can’t begin to tell you about all of them.                                                             John Popp                                                          in Sanford Fl.

Response:

Question:

Hi Fisherfolks! One of my friends is going to a family reunion near Charma, New Mexico. He says the Brazos River is near there. He would like to try fly-fishing again while he is there. He used to flyfish as a kid, but let it go as an adult, and would like to find a guide who can help him get reacquainted (sp?) with it. Can anyone help with this? Please E-mail me your response. Thanks for the help! Steve Rosenblum Ann Arbor, MI

Response:

Hi Fisherfolks! One of my friends is going to a family reunion near Charma, New Mexico. He says the Brazos River is near there. He would like to try fly-fishing again while he is there. He used to flyfish as a kid, but let it go as an adult, and would like to find a guide who can help him get reacquainted (sp?) with it. Can anyone help with this? Please E-mail me your response. Thanks for the help! Steve Rosenblum Ann Arbor, MI

Hi Steve I recently fished there and the fishing was good. I didn’t use a guide but I’m sure you can find a guide by clicking on my web page and then on the fishing reports. There is a whole section on New Mexico. From there it’s just a matter of checking the different report and the organizations who supply them. Good luck & … — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Catalog,Tips & Tricks, Fishing Reports, & NeverSink at: http://www.btsflyfishing.com

Response:

Hi Fisherfolks! One of my friends is going to a family reunion near Charma, New Mexico. He says the Brazos River is near there. He would like to try fly-fishing again while he is there. He used to flyfish as a kid, but let it go as an adult, and would like to find a guide who can help him get reacquainted (sp?) with it. Can anyone help with this? Please E-mail me your response. Thanks for the help! Steve Rosenblum Ann Arbor, MI

I don’t know about the Brazos but the Chama, the Rio Grande, the Cimmaron and other N New Mexico streams and rivers offer great fishing.  Your friend might contact Van Beacham at Los Rios Angler in Taos (not too far from Chama by western standards).  LRA phone number is (505)758-2798.  Los Pinos in Albaquerque (505) 884-7501 or High Desert Angler in Sanat Fe (505) 98 TROUT –don’t you hate look for those letters?– might be able to suggest or provide guides.  The book Flyfishing in Northern New Mexico is great if you friend doesn’t really need a guide. John

Response:

Question:

Hey John Fereira!    My news server has been out for three days and I just noticed on the news.groups that a CFV has started for flytying. Has it been posted here on ROFF?    This is the time folks! You don’t have to discuss it any more, just vote. I’ve sent in my vote and received a reply that it has been counted. Keep your feet dry, — lukn4fish Bob San Jose, Ca

Response:

Hey John Fereira!   My news server has been out for three days and I just noticed on the news.groups that a CFV has started for flytying. Has it been posted here on ROFF?   This is the time folks! You don’t have to discuss it any more, just vote. I’ve sent in my vote and received a reply that it has been counted. Keep your feet dry,

Yes, it was posted here, in rec.outdoors.fishing, and in news.groups. I vote YES for rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying or I vote NO for rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying as the only line in the text of the message. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Response: