Question:

<snip  i just can’t imagine trying to fish with a fly rod for trout under the conditions you have described.

It’s not often like I described. George and I have shared the entire stretch with one or two others for most of the season. Because of the warm weather immediately following a cold snap, and the threat of bad weather all the following week, everyone’s fishing time was compacted into one day. Also, there are other good "wild" rivers around the area, but the drought-like conditions have kept them way down this year, hence the concentration of fishers at the Swift. The Swift has a controlled flow and sustains the good trout conditions pretty much year ’round. thank god for the blue ridge, and the great smokies, and the old north state.     why don’t ya come down and *see* us some time…

I’d like that and, if the invitation remains open and the stars align properly, I plan on getting to the ONS next Autumn. I’d like to hear about the anti-clave from the perspective of a non-participant of the death march so I can better gage the kind of fishing I’d see. Should you find your way to Western Massachusetts some day, there is typically some very good fishing to show you and some wonderful scenery. Why, Stan might even show you his secret spot. . . — TL, Tim

Response:

Ahhhh, "therein lies the rub." While we are trying to be stealthy and fool the fish into taking one of our real-life imitations, the spinner folks are just trying to piss ‘em off. At the next ‘clave, try this experiment – see which takes longer: pissing someone off or fooling them. Based on years of scientific study and black eyes, I’ve found that pissing *people* off can be a much quicker endeavor, and this probably holds true for fish as well.  :)

Tim, it is funny your story. I was in your neck of the woods on Sat afternoon with a spinning rod, a six of budlite, two packs of white owls, a buddy and his son … nah, just kidding. I was up on the Hoosic, though, and the same thing happened: I was in the pool first and a guy with his son came by. He told his son to fish in front of me on the opposite back. He went downstream and start to cast within a couple of yards of me. Judging by his glares, the SOB looked like he cared more about the pool than I did, so I moved on to the next pool. Some things just aren’t worth the hypertension (or the hospital fees). — Gary M (remove ‘x’s from email address)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The good news is that the kid caught a nice rainbow right after you left. How does this stuff happen?  We stealthy fly fishermen can creep upto a pool on our bellies, deftly cast our 7X tippets from a crouch, and still put fish down for an entire day with a brief glint off a chrome tip top.   Yet a loud bunch of spin fishermen can loudly stroll right into a pool, toss down their cigarette butts, then turn around and catch a nice rainbow.   There’s something wrong with that.  :-)

Ahhhh, "therein lies the rub." While we are trying to be stealthy and fool the fish into taking one of our real-life imitations, the spinner folks are just trying to piss ‘em off. At the next ‘clave, try this experiment – see which takes longer: pissing someone off or fooling them. Based on years of scientific study and black eyes, I’ve found that pissing *people* off can be a much quicker endeavor, and this probably holds true for fish as well.  :) — TL, Tim

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <… As I’m tying on new sections, two beer-drinking, cigarette smoking, spinner-throwing gentlemen with a 5 or 6 year old boy appear with the all subtlety of a runaway train between George and me and start casting into MY pool 10 feet in front of me. Nice report Tim.  Don’t be to hard on the spin fishermen – I used to fish the Swift and Deerfield with spinners when I was younger and poorer.  From their point of view, you and George were hogging the river. However, you did hit on the reason why I just can’t bring myself to fish the Swift on a weekend…     i just can’t imagine trying to fish with a fly rod for trout under the

conditions you have described.     thank god for the blue ridge, and the great smokies, and the old north state.     why don’t ya come down and *see* us some time… yfitons wayno

Response:

<… As I’m tying on new sections, two beer-drinking, cigarette smoking, spinner-throwing gentlemen with a 5 or 6 year old boy appear with the all subtlety of a runaway train between George and me and start casting into MY pool 10 feet in front of me. Nice report Tim.  Don’t be to hard on the spin fishermen – I used to fish the Swift and Deerfield with spinners when I was younger and poorer.  From their point of view, you and George were hogging the river.

You got me all wrong, Stan. I’m innocent – innocent, I tells ya. <g  I haven’t done any spinner fishing in the past few years, but before that I did quite a bit myself. I have nothing against spinner fishing, and would have been just as ticked off had a fly fisher started casting right in front of me. When I was spinner fishing, I always gave other fishers a wide berth when they had staked a claim. I think it’s a courtesy for any type of fishing. However, you did hit on the reason why I just can’t bring myself to fish the Swift on a weekend…

Yeah – the "elbow-to-elbow" conditions aren’t the ultimate. If we get some more decent weather, I’m going to go to some of my downriver spots. I’ve found these far less populated, but the scenery is pretty poor in places. A lot of trash-dumping goes on by the time you get to Bondsville. — TL, Tim

Response:

In the meantime, picture George acting like he’s oblivious to it all as he continues to backcast in their general direction. These guys can’t take a hint, though, and probably wouldn’t even if he landed one of them. Those guys toughed it out. I figured they would take the hint, but if I got too close they probably would have just moved closer to you….they seemed to be that sort. Good that they take the kid fishing, but not setting a good example for him.

The good news is that the kid caught a nice rainbow right after you left. He was very excited and I heard him ask the older guys as they were packing to leave when they could bring him again. The better news is that they *did* release the fish, because I had serious doubts that they would. Hopefully, the fish survived the handling. — TL, Tim

Response:

The good news is that the kid caught a nice rainbow right after you left.

How does this stuff happen?  We stealthy fly fishermen can creep upto a pool on our bellies, deftly cast our 7X tippets from a crouch, and still put fish down for an entire day with a brief glint off a chrome tip top.   Yet a loud bunch of spin fishermen can loudly stroll right into a pool, toss down their cigarette butts, then turn around and catch a nice rainbow.   There’s something wrong with that.  :-) Joe F.

Response:

However, you did hit on the reason why I just can’t bring myself to fish the Swift on a weekend…

The traffic there has been real sporadic all year. There’s been a few weekends when you can’t even find a place to park, yet there’s been as many when I’ve found myself fishing alone for long periods of time. It’s often been more crowded on weekday evenings than the weekends, though Tim and I have fished several weekday evenings with little or no company. To paraphrase Yogi, "Nobody fishes it because it’s so crowded." George Adams "All good fishermen stay young until they die, for fishing is the only dream of youth that doth not grow stale with age."                                                           —- J.W Muller

Response:

Yeah, well, I figured if it’s going to be stupid, short is the best way to go. It just didn’t turn out that way. As someone else mentioned on another TR, we had a relatively warm weekend. As I was raking leaves and cleaning the yard for the winter onslaught, I thought, "What in the hell am I doing wasting perfectly good fishing weather?" When SWMBO decided it was time for her to start Christmas shopping, I wished her well but convinced her that I MUST stay and get the yard work done. As she pulled out of the driveway, I saw my opening and threw the blower and rake in the shed as I ran to grab my waders. So now it’s about 13:00 on a Saturday afternoon. I figured there were two choices: The nearby C & R area was bound to be primed for combat fishing since every other fly fisher in the area was probably throwing their rakes into the shed at about the same time. Or I could go to a less fished area of the river, but there are really only a few decent areas for throwing in a fly and have a possibility of catching much. I decide on the former and speed off. As I pull into the C & R area, this little red Subaru is blocking my forward progress. DAMN – George got the fishing idea just a moment before it came to me. As we pull up to the parking area, the number of vehicles indicate finding a good spot might be a problem. George decides he’ll head downstream to the usual and best spots to see how heavily occupied by the enemy they might be. With my eternal optimism I went upstream to see if any fish had migrated that far. I found a couple of runs that looked semi-promising and started wetting the line. I caught four tremendous lunkers, with the largest being the size of my index finger. One of them received full backcast treatment from me. With that kind of success behind me, I trudge off in search of George. I decided that he must have found a spot and be doing okay since he wasn’t searching for me. I find him in a prime location throwing some kind of black gnat about the size of a pin head. He tells me he has picked up a few decent ‘bows already and I notice there is another prime spot open just downstream from him. I make a run of drifts with a #24 Griffiths Gnat, which was the smallest thing I had. The fish rise at it, but no takes. I then catch the branch directly above me and am doomed to lose the fly and all except the butt section of leader. As I’m tying on new sections, two beer-drinking, cigarette smoking, spinner-throwing gentlemen with a 5 or 6 year old boy appear with the all subtlety of a runaway train between George and me and start casting into MY pool 10 feet in front of me. Can you imagine throwing spinners in the presence of a 5 year old? <G As they get the lure stuck on a log, I hear them discuss having "the guy with the waders" get it for them. Obviously, I am too involved with tying my leader and cannot hear them, so one of them sloshes out into the pool to reclaim it. The fish to which I’d been casting scatter. In the meantime, picture George acting like he’s oblivious to it all as he continues to backcast in their general direction. These guys can’t take a hint, though, and probably wouldn’t even if he landed one of them. Finally, I decide I’ve had enough and reel in my line, raise my rod, give them a stern stare, and . . . move back up river. I decided that I wouldn’t succeed in teaching them anything and would probably just sour the 5 year old from fishing again. Some of the other fishermen come out of the spot just above George, so I enter there. I watch George land a nice ‘bow and I continue to throw stuff at ‘em to no avail. Right before dark, I bring a small brookie (maybe all of 6 inches) to hand and call it a day. Since this was a day when I hadn’t planned to fish at all, it was a fun one all the more and possibly the last shirt-sleeve one of the season. I thank the weather gods for it and head for home. — TL, Tim

Response:

In the meantime, picture George acting like he’s oblivious to it all as he continues to backcast in their general direction. These guys can’t take a hint, though, and probably wouldn’t even if he landed one of them.

Those guys toughed it out. I figured they would take the hint, but if I got too close they probably would have just moved closer to you….they seemed to be that sort. Good that they take the kid fishing, but not setting a good example for him. I watch George land a nice ‘bow and I continue to throw stuff at ‘em to no avail.

Wound up with 3 browns and 3 ‘bows. (not unethical to count if you can do it on your fingers) Likely will be my last time out unless we get another warm spell, even though I tied up some more of the #26 emergers.  I left my last one in a decent fish and decided to call it quits. Come on Spring!! George Adams "All good fishermen stay young until they die, for fishing is the only dream of youth that doth not grow stale with age."                                                           —- J.W Muller

Response:

<… As I’m tying on new sections, two beer-drinking, cigarette smoking, spinner-throwing gentlemen with a 5 or 6 year old boy appear with the all subtlety of a runaway train between George and me and start casting into MY pool 10 feet in front of me.

Nice report Tim.  Don’t be to hard on the spin fishermen – I used to fish the Swift and Deerfield with spinners when I was younger and poorer.  From their point of view, you and George were hogging the river. However, you did hit on the reason why I just can’t bring myself to fish the Swift on a weekend…

Response:

Question:

Actually, flyrods are more since that was quoted correctly.  Secondary part costs have increased dramatically since the Clinton defascoes and Greenspan screw ups with the economy.

So until you give me a new figure let’s work with a  100% increase on costs over the past four years (although I can’t beleive it should be this high). That still implies a helathy profit of several 100%. You have not used the correct price at all.  Most of the fly rods are around $500 – $700.  

Check your own website. I clearly stated I was using the MSRP which is quoted at $1620 to $3000. This is the price you expect a retailer to charge for your rods. or did you post a hugely inflated MSRP in order to make your rods appear to be worth more tahn they really are. Surely that would be unethical… George Gehrke "bamboosan" http://www.gink.com George Gehrke "lowest priced bamboo fly rods regardless"

And this is wrong too. Your MSRPs for your product line rods are higher (and in some cases considerably higher) than the price of most handmade rods which, as you have admitted yourself in the past, have higher quality.

Response:

The Cortland "444 Clear Camo" is the most popular here in California, USA, planet earth.

For those in the know (such as my cat) the inter-galactic postal service now requires both "Galaxy" AND "ZIP + AZ + RA" for speedy delivery… K

Response:

  Where the fuck are those guys in white coats when you need them? Playing Poker over at Wayne Harrison’s house:  Joker’s Wild? Glad to see you’re not brain dead yet by responding to my troll of vulgarity. My apologies for the civilized language. Mr.G. "back to regular casting"

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, flyrods are more since that was quoted correctly.  Secondary  part costs have increased dramatically since the Clinton defascoes and  Greenspan screw ups with the economy. So until you give me a new figure let’s work with a  100% increase on costs over the past four years (although I can’t beleive it should be this high). That still implies a helathy profit of several 100%. You have not used the correct price at all.  Most of the fly rods are  around $500 – $700. Check your own website. I clearly stated I was using the MSRP which is quoted at $1620 to $3000. This is the price you expect a retailer to charge for your rods. or did you post a hugely inflated MSRP in order to make your rods appear to be worth more tahn they really are. Surely that would be unethical… Whoa, right here ass hole.  You don’t know for jack shit the quality of our fly rods.  Admit it!  Where is your source of knowledge derived from?? Other assholes?

You should learn to read and comprehend and control your infamous short-temper. You are supposed to be a mature adult, so why not start acting like one. I did not say your rods are of bad quality. I asked if they were really worth $1600 to $3000, which are prices commanded by top quality, hand made rods, constructed by gentlemen with many years of craftmanship behind them. You have often commneted yourself that your rods are of porduction line quality, and, while they may or may not be the best production line rods in the world, I find it hard to believe they are of the same quality level as the handmade rods, and therefore worth an equivalent amount. So, I ask you, would you put your rod with a MSRP of $3000 (note, I said MSRP, not "special online price") up against a hand-made rod charged at $3000? Would you gurantee your rod to be of the same quality and standard as that handmade rod? I’ll tell you what.  I dare you, if you wish to see a beautiful bamboo to order one and in your case you will pay in advance for a Bastard for a bastard.  I will defy you to  be able to find fault with it compared to any other bamboo fly rod in the world. Okay, you chicken shit son of a bitch.  What say you? George Gehrke bamboosan

I have no wish whatsoever to do business with a man who uses such language and shows such obvious contempt for his "customers". I am very choosy about who I give my money to. Sorry.

Response:

Some people wonder why the hell little bottles of Floatant sell for $20 NZ here…

Is there money to be made smuggling Albolene to NZ? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Some people wonder why the hell little bottles of Floatant sell for $20 NZ here… Clark

You can always order factory direct as ours don’t sell for that there Clark. Even the cost of postage would be cheaper than what it takes you to drive to the store. Your Pal, George

Response:

Some people wonder why the hell little bottles of Floatant sell for $20 NZ here… Clark

Um, isn’t that about 8.00USD?  Granted, more expensive than in the US, but considering the costs involved versus the market, that doesn’t, on the face of it, sound so outrageous.  Of course, if it’s Ginkle’s Gunk, I can see the basis for your confusion… TC, R

Response:

Rusty?  I did an extensive article with drawings on how fly lines are made. The engineering has been paid for long ago and that deals with line tapers mainly.  What does change are coatings and finishes.  That is all. The process is so simple as to boggle the mind and the cost of making a fly line is indeed one of the lowest in American Manufacturing in the industry. This is why one can readily appreciate HOW a company like Cortland can afford full page ads in magazines.  The profit margin is so vast as to be literally obnoxious and unfair.  Just like Frog Butt, the fly fishermen of America are NOT getting a square or honest deal when it comes to fly lines. No joke.  Fly lines from all the manufacturers are over priced.  I mean, WAY over priced! Consider this.  A Cortland 333 or 444 could be bought in Wal-Mart here in Lewiston Idaho just a week ago and  for several years for the low, Low, LOW price of only $11.57.  Would you like to hear the rest of the story? The new (and I wonder about this term as a hype bite) 555 Cortland costs no more to make than any other Cortland Fly Line.  If they cost more, okay; I’ll let you increase that factor about what this article is worth.  How about .02 Cents? George Gehrke Each of these fly lines all cast the same, believe it or not.  It’s nothing to get excited about.  Fly lines are expendable and as far as I’m concerned, the 555 should sell for LESS THAN Twenty dollars per line. You know everyone?  I keep saying this time and time again.  The packaging costs more than what it takes to make a fly line and the labor required is not much at all, but for some odd reason this fact just doesn’t soak in. Fly line companies need to be boycotted if you want to get them back into the honesty game, like it or not.  Thing is, it’s all I mainly fish with is Cortland Fly Lines but I use only the fairly priced ones and always will. George Gehrke "Inside Trade Secrets"

Response:

Yep! Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some people wonder why the hell little bottles of Floatant sell for $20 NZ here… Is there money to be made smuggling Albolene to NZ? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Yep basically but my point was, even at $8.00 US, for what it is some people just are not in a position to be bitching about how Cortland prices its lines, apart from the obvious factors already pointed out about the engineering and development and manufacture of new lines. Cortland didn’t just find a material used to keep ladies knickers up and repackage it as an expensive fly line. Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some people wonder why the hell little bottles of Floatant sell for $20 NZ here… Clark Um, isn’t that about 8.00USD?  Granted, more expensive than in the US, but considering the costs involved versus the market, that doesn’t, on the face of it, sound so outrageous.  Of course, if it’s Ginkle’s Gunk, I can see the basis for your confusion… TC, R

Response:

Yep basically but my point was, even at $8.00 US, for what it is some people just are not in a position to be bitching about how Cortland prices its lines, apart from the obvious factors already pointed out about the engineering and development and manufacture of new lines. Cortland didn’t just find a material used to keep ladies knickers up and repackage it as an expensive fly line.

My article on how easy it is to put some PVC plastic on a string apart from engineering which has been done years ago and paid for ten thousand times over, machinery that hasn’t changed in fifty years in making the web core and the automated ejection dies that cost a dime a dozen, is long ago paid for. It is just the change of plastic advances.  Cortland or S.Anglers all buy the plastics by the thousand pound box lots and it’s cheap.  The cost of the plastic coating the fly line you’re using today is about a 1/20th of a cent worth, if that. I know what a fair price for a fly line is and you don’t Clark.  I’m telling you that you can make it sound extravagant but it isn’t.  The art work on a fly line box is more extravagant than the line, believe that.  My point is simple.  Fly lines are over priced. George Gehrke The exchange rate where you are is indeed just numbers.  You have the same buying power and that is not America’s fault now, is it?  How much money is good wages per hour there?  A hundred dollars an hour or three dollars an hour?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rusty?  I did an extensive article with drawings on how fly lines are made. The engineering has been paid for long ago and that deals with line tapers mainly.  What does change are coatings and finishes.  That is all. The process is so simple as to boggle the mind and the cost of making a fly line is indeed one of the lowest in American Manufacturing in the industry. This is why one can readily appreciate HOW a company like Cortland can afford full page ads in magazines.  The profit margin is so vast as to be literally obnoxious and unfair.  Just like Frog Butt, the fly fishermen of America are NOT getting a square or honest deal when it comes to fly lines. No joke.  Fly lines from all the manufacturers are over priced.  I mean, WAY over priced! Consider this.  A Cortland 333 or 444 could be bought in Wal-Mart here in Lewiston Idaho just a week ago and  for several years for the low, Low, LOW price of only $11.57.  Would you like to hear the rest of the story? The new (and I wonder about this term as a hype bite) 555 Cortland costs no more to make than any other Cortland Fly Line.  If they cost more, okay; I’ll let you increase that factor about what this article is worth.  How about .02 Cents? George Gehrke Each of these fly lines all cast the same, believe it or not.  It’s nothing to get excited about.  Fly lines are expendable and as far as I’m concerned, the 555 should sell for LESS THAN Twenty dollars per line. You know everyone?  I keep saying this time and time again.  The packaging costs more than what it takes to make a fly line and the labor required is not much at all, but for some odd reason this fact just doesn’t soak in. Fly line companies need to be boycotted if you want to get them back into the honesty game, like it or not.  Thing is, it’s all I mainly fish with is Cortland Fly Lines but I use only the fairly priced ones and always will. George Gehrke "Inside Trade Secrets"

"I assure everyone here, you can build the finest bamboo fly rod in the world for less then $50 – $65 dollars. " George Gehrke, 31 December 1998 Quoted _retail price_ on www.gink.com  = $1620 Profit = 1620 – 80  = $1540  (allowing for some inflation!) % Profit = almost 2000 %.  That’s quite some markup! Note: This is not the "special offer if you buy via the internet price", but the manufacturer’s suggested retail price for a Blonde model. If you want a Black Raven at MDRP of $3000, the markup is closer to 3650 %. It is up to the reader to decide whether these are the "finest bamboo" in the world. What should we think about such high markups? "The more commercial you become the lower the manufacturing costs UP to a CERTAIN point. Then things average out to around $49.95 each. THAT rod is now being sold for $2500! Which is such a con job as to require all of us to march upon Orvis and other Overpricing Fly Rod Manufacturers who are "Over-Charging" and we should slap them silly. " George Gehrke,  31 December 1998 What can we do but agree with this sage advice. The line forms on my right…

Response:

"Rapscallion"   YOU!  You chickenshit sonofabitch, who doesn’t have the balls to present your own real name dares to challenge me, the God and Ruler of Roff?  I’m George Gehrke, the one and only.  Who are you.  Nothing? George Gehrke "a somebody" And proud of it.

Where the fuck are those guys in white coats when you need them?

Response:

"Rapscallion"   YOU!  You chickenshit sonofabitch, who doesn’t have the balls to present your own real name dares to challenge me, the God and Ruler of Roff?  I’m George Gehrke, the one and only.  Who are you.  Nothing? George Gehrke "a somebody" And proud of it.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, flyrods are more since that was quoted correctly.  Secondary part costs have increased dramatically since the Clinton defascoes and Greenspan screw ups with the economy. So until you give me a new figure let’s work with a  100% increase on costs over the past four years (although I can’t beleive it should be this high). That still implies a helathy profit of several 100%. You have not used the correct price at all.  Most of the fly rods are around $500 – $700. Check your own website. I clearly stated I was using the MSRP which is quoted at $1620 to $3000. This is the price you expect a retailer to charge for your rods. or did you post a hugely inflated MSRP in order to make your rods appear to be worth more tahn they really are. Surely that would be unethical…

Whoa, right here ass hole.  You don’t know for jack shit the quality of our fly rods.  Admit it!  Where is your source of knowledge derived from?? Other assholes? I’ll tell you what.  I dare you, if you wish to see a beautiful bamboo to order one and in your case you will pay in advance for a Bastard for a bastard.  I will defy you to  be able to find fault with it compared to any other bamboo fly rod in the world. Okay, you chicken shit son of a bitch.  What say you? George Gehrke bamboosan

Response:

For just about any manufactured goods, the cost of raw materials is minor compared to the costs incurred in research and development, manufacture, distribution, and promotion. Basing the "fair price" of a flyline on the cost of bulk PVC is about the same as saying that split-cane flyrods shouldn’t cost any more than 20 or 30 dollars because they are made of little more than bamboo, cork, steel, and nickel. Besides that, there is currently enough competition in the fly line market that I seriously doubt that an artificially high price would last for very long.

This is very true, but misleading and not entirely correct.  The general rule of thumb that I have found is that wholesale is roughly half of retail and wholesale is over two times the cost of production.  You are basically paying for the manufacturer to make a profit and then the retailer to make a profit.  My friend was signed up with several business that had guide programs and I got to see some of the price sheets for Orvis and others.  What was costing me $5 (brass beads), he was getting for $1.50 or so.  If you knew the mark up on stuff like hackle, fly rods, etc you would shit your pants, which wouldn’t be a problem if you were paying wholesale because you could afford a pair just to crap in.  The glasses I wanted that were $150, he could get for $45.  Unlike other industries, the mark ups on fly fishing gear is huge.  Those that are able to afford it do so.  Those that can’t afford it but still want it sacrifice and buy it anyways.  Those that can’t afford it buy something that is a good substitute but within their price range.  I think the fly fishing industry has basically nickled and dimed us over the years to find the upper limits of what we are willing to pay as consumers and have been very effective at doing so.  The few manufacturers that start off at discounted prices eventually join up with the rest and start charging the same as everyone else.  Look at rod prices for instance. — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

Response:

Actually, flyrods are more since that was quoted correctly.  Secondary part costs have increased dramatically since the Clinton defascoes and Greenspan screw ups with the economy. You have not used the correct price at all.  Most of the fly rods are around $500 – $700.  Just the ferrules which are all American Made  usually are nearly $200 worth.  That is not my idea of fair pricing either.  Then there are the Agate Guides, snake guides, reel seat, cork, labor. No, we don’t over charge but you sure do know how to blue sky and put things out of context.  As a Roffian, you fit right in. George Gehrke "bamboosan" http://www.gink.com George Gehrke "lowest priced bamboo fly rods regardless"

Response:

I know what a fair price for a fly line is and you don’t Clark.  I’m telling you that you can make it sound extravagant but it isn’t.  The art work on a fly line box is more extravagant than the line, believe that.  My point is simple.  Fly lines are over priced.

For just about any manufactured goods, the cost of raw materials is minor compared to the costs incurred in research and development, manufacture, distribution, and promotion. Basing the "fair price" of a flyline on the cost of bulk PVC is about the same as saying that split-cane flyrods shouldn’t cost any more than 20 or 30 dollars because they are made of little more than bamboo, cork, steel, and nickel. Besides that, there is currently enough competition in the fly line market that I seriously doubt that an artificially high price would last for very long. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know what a fair price for a fly line is and you don’t Clark.  I’m telling you that you can make it sound extravagant but it isn’t.  The art work on a fly line box is more extravagant than the line, believe that.  My point is simple.  Fly lines are over priced. For just about any manufactured goods, the cost of raw materials is minor compared to the costs incurred in research and development, manufacture, distribution, and promotion. Basing the "fair price" of a flyline on the cost of bulk PVC is about the same as saying that split-cane flyrods shouldn’t cost any more than 20 or 30 dollars because they are made of little more than bamboo, cork, steel, and nickel. Besides that, there is currently enough competition in the fly line market that I seriously doubt that an artificially high price would last for very long. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming

You make a compelling point and I bow to it. George

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Any opinions on the best full sinking line for stillwater applications? steve haun sioux falls

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Any opinions on the best full sinking line for stillwater applications?

Depends what you require of it. We do a lot of reservoir fishing from boats here in the U.K. We use everything from neutral density (barely breaks through the surface) through to some fairly scary high density fly lines (e.g. Airflo DI7 and DI8). Note that these last named are proper casting tapers, not just lengths of lead core trolling line. If I were to pick only one sinking line, I’d probably choose a 3M Scientific Anglers WetCel 1 intermediate – popularly known here by its colour: the ‘Kelly Green’. It’s a nice line to cast and generally useful. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

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Some people wonder why the hell little bottles of Floatant sell for $20 NZ here… Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bill?  I went to my favorite or nearest Fly Shop and looked at the Cortland 555 and for $60 Cortland isn’t offering much for something that only cost them .87 Cents to make.  Hell, the packaging cost more! I just wish there was more honesty in fly line pricing than what is taking place in America today.  These fly lines should not be retailing for any more than about $15 each and this is the truth… The 555 is a new line, and the people who developed it, advertise it, distribute it, etc, all need to get paid. If they sold for only $15, the engineers (and others) currently in the flyfishing industry would move on to greener pastures, or the companies would go out of business. Maybe both. With the kind of fishing I do, and the kind of budget I’m currently living with, the budget lines made by Cortland and SA suit me just fine. OTOH, it’s nice to know that they (and others) are constantly innovating. There is a price to pay for having the newest, slickest line, but judging by the sales of high-end fly tackle, there are plenty of customers who are willing to pay for it, just as there are plenty of others who are willing to stay with the older-generation lines in order to save money for other things. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming

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Bill?  I went to my favorite or nearest Fly Shop and looked at the Cortland 555 and for $60 Cortland isn’t offering much for something that only cost them .87 Cents to make.  Hell, the packaging cost more! I just wish there was more honesty in fly line pricing than what is taking place in America today.  These fly lines should not be retailing for any more than about $15 each and this is the truth…

The 555 is a new line, and the people who developed it, advertise it, distribute it, etc, all need to get paid. If they sold for only $15, the engineers (and others) currently in the flyfishing industry would move on to greener pastures, or the companies would go out of business. Maybe both. With the kind of fishing I do, and the kind of budget I’m currently living with, the budget lines made by Cortland and SA suit me just fine. OTOH, it’s nice to know that they (and others) are constantly innovating. There is a price to pay for having the newest, slickest line, but judging by the sales of high-end fly tackle, there are plenty of customers who are willing to pay for it, just as there are plenty of others who are willing to stay with the older-generation lines in order to save money for other things. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming

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Hi Steve, We sell most the full sinking weight forward slow sinking clear lines for a lakes. The Cortland "444 Clear Camo" is the most popular here in California, USA, planet earth. Years ago the WF6S type 2,  SA or Cortland was the most popular lake line. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any opinions on the best full sinking line for stillwater applications? steve haun sioux falls

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Bill?  I went to my favorite or nearest Fly Shop and looked at the Cortland 555 and for $60 Cortland isn’t offering much for something that only cost them .87 Cents to make.  Hell, the packaging cost more! I just wish there was more honesty in fly line pricing than what is taking place in America today.  These fly lines should not be retailing for any more than about $15 each and this is the truth. I walked into Lewiston’s Wal-Mart to buy some Cortland 444 fly lines for about the same low price of around $15 and this store said that Wal-Mart pulled not only the Cortland Fly Lines and ALL Fly Line brands but the leaders.  I no sooner got outside to my electronics center (Pick Up) and called 1-800-Wal-Mart and we had a serious discussion about this issue. Seems their light bulb may have come back on.  We will see. George

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Question:

Hi All, I just read a good article in the latest issue of  "Saltwater Flyfishing" magazine by veteran outdoor writer Bob Stearns. Bob says that 2 stroke outboard motor sales a slumping and 4 strokes will be taking over in many size categories. Keep this in mind when buying a new or used boat. — Bill Kiene

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Also the stated goal of the EPA is the eventual extinction of the two stroke in all recreational motors both on and off the water. This as stated by an EPA rep at my last ABATE meeting (motorcycles).    Bill P.

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Thanks Bill — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com Also the stated goal of the EPA is the eventual extinction of the two

stroke in all recreational motors both on and off the water. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This as stated by an EPA rep at my last ABATE meeting (motorcycles). Bill P.

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cool, hate 2 cycle anyways (for outboards) "converted" my little one for my 14ft alum boat few years ago to a B/S 4hp It starts like a charm, and goes longer on fuel. no pollutants in water any more sinse it is air cooled, not water cooled, I ve sealed the water vents up, never fails me, no mixing , dont even have to choke the thing… wish I could get it to be quiet a little more…any suggestion on muffler will be appreciated..

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Well, The bureaucrats might just do it, but they’ll be ripping my two stroke out of my fingers when the do.  In commercial, high stress environments, the four bangers have been less than impressive.  Boat motors for boats, car motors for cars.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I just read a good article in the latest issue of  "Saltwater Flyfishing" magazine by veteran outdoor writer Bob Stearns. Bob says that 2 stroke outboard motor sales a slumping and 4 strokes will be taking over in many size categories. Keep this in mind when buying a new or used boat. — Bill Kiene

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Well, The bureaucrats might just do it, but they’ll be ripping my two stroke out of my fingers when the do.  In commercial, high stress environments, the four bangers have been less than impressive.  Boat motors for boats, car motors for cars.

I agree wholeheartedly with you Pat!  I was out on a boat that was "powered" by a Honda 130.  I thought that the lightly loaded boat was hard starting in cold weather, slow coming up on plane and a whole lot slower than the boat should have been with a 130 hp outboard.  The new EFI and Direct Injection systems are almost as fuel efficient and environmentally friendly with reduced emissions as the 4 strokes, with all the benefits of the 2 strokes superior horsepower to weight ratio. — Steve OutdoorFrontiers.com G & S Guide Service and Custom Rods   http://www.herefishyfishy.com

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Question:

<snip I understand what you’re saying Stan but your spin off my post doesn’t quite gel to what I was trying to say.  I will elucidate upon it a little more for media clarification here.

George: I’ll admit that I haven’t a clue what your point is most of the time. Like, for example, what the hell does the subject of this thread mean? So, elucidate some more: Were you referring to some particular magazine article or book reference or a posting here on roff or rofft that failed to use the original pattern and materials for some famous fly?  If so, a reference would have helped establish a context for your post.  Without a context, your post comes off as simple pontification and a plea for hero worship, both of which chafe. Apologies for failing to gel – it must be the pineapple. –Stan PS for Eugene Knapik: tie up all the traditional streamers you like.  It’s freedom of choice, man.  I love it.  Some of my Mickey Finns look like Mickey Finns too.

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geez guys, I usually keep a box of streamers buried in my vest to play with when there isn’t much doing…some of them look a little like the patterns in that lovely Bates book….that being said, if I was tying streamers for sport, I’d be going after the classic look, original materials and the whole snotty bit…why not, its a fine tradition… Eugene Knapik Toronto

Eugene, I don’t recognize your "handle," so I’ll guess you are either an infrequent poster, a lurker, or new to ROFF.  If you don’t realize what’s up with Ginkles (Gehrke), only a google groups search, several hours of sometimes-humorous, sometimes-sad reading will truly bring you up to speed.  A by-no-means complete, albeit completely representative, selection of his greatest hits can be found at www.ginkstinks.com (I have nothing to do with this site, but I highly recommend it).  That said: Of course you should tie what pleases you and/or your target fish.  If you are tying flies for fishing, IMO, tie what works, regardless of materials – some of the now-classic patterns, and now-traditional patterns that were mods of "classics," started as bits of long johns, jacket lining, and other "non-traditional" materials.  If you are tying for your, or other people’s, enjoyment, such as for "display" or presentation flies, then, by all means, tie with what you feel is appropriate for that context.  Tying "classics" is, as you correctly point out, a fine tradition, and a fine hobby unto itself. TC, R

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<snip You’re doing just fine Stan. You got the point and I’m sure your Bate’s style Mickey Finns will work great.

Nope.  Didn’t get your point, and you didn’t get mine.  I don’t tie anything in anybody’s style but mine. Fudd’s First Law of Opposition applies. My work is done. –Stan (off to Dr. Beddoes Pneumatic Institute)

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rdean is crazier and loonier then Wolfgang on expresso!

An "instant classic" literary vignette on virtually every post….

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rdean is crazier and loonier then Wolfgang on expresso! An "instant classic" literary vignette on virtually every post….

But not all for the same reasons.  This one has merit.    :) Wolfgang

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rdean is crazier and loonier then Wolfgang on expresso! An "instant classic" literary vignette on virtually every post…. But not all for the same reasons.  This one has merit.    :)

My mistake – I didn’t know expresso was a legitimate variant of espresso. It’s funny how the more you make fun of people, the more you learn…

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rdean is crazier and loonier then Wolfgang on expresso! An "instant classic" literary vignette on virtually every post…. But not all for the same reasons.  This one has merit.    :) My mistake – I didn’t know expresso was a legitimate variant of espresso. It’s funny how the more you make fun of people, the more you learn…

Somebody, (two people) out of 9000 Active & Inactive (stalkers of roff) finally got it!  Jeff?  You get a gold star next to your name this morning.  I’m so impressed,  you drew me out of semi retirement.  A+ my friend.  You get an A+! Imagine Wolfgang’s demeanor when onpresso?

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Try staying up for a week, consuming nothing but double espresso until the 8th day, and then eating 4 pounds of anchovy paste and a box of dry Grape Nuts, all washed down with about a gallon of grain alcohol Thunderdog, and then, find a carnival and buy an hour on the Tilt-a-Whirl…come home and try to post, from memory, the entire "St Crispen’s Day" speech from Henry V, as "your good friend" Yogi Berra would have made it, embellished with a critique of the strategies used in the Battle of Agincourt….in the first person plural, of course… TA-DA!  Ginklespew!  Literary Ginklespew, but Ginklespew shall it be…

        And gentlemen in England now a-bed         Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,         And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks         That heard with us Saint Ginkle’s bray. TC, R who knows Ginkles just holds his manhood, such as it may be, cheap…

Cheap or dear, at least he does the job himself! Wolfgang as in who else would?

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rdean is crazier and loonier then Wolfgang on expresso! George who is sipping club soda

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip I understand what you’re saying Stan but your spin off my post doesn’t quite gel to what I was trying to say.  I will elucidate upon it a little more for media clarification here. George: I’ll admit that I haven’t a clue what your point is most of the time. Like, for example, what the hell does the subject of this thread mean? So, elucidate some more: Were you referring to some particular magazine article or book reference or a posting here on roff or rofft that failed to use the original pattern and materials for some famous fly?  If so, a reference would have helped establish a context for your post.  Without a context, your post comes off as simple pontification and a plea for hero worship, both of which chafe.

Never strive to do this.  It could be your reading style?  :)))))))))) ! (just kidding) Apologies for failing to gel – it must be the pineapple. –Stan PS for Eugene Knapik: tie up all the traditional streamers you like.  It’s freedom of choice, man.  I love it.  Some of my Mickey Finns look like Mickey Finns too.

You’re doing just fine Stan. You got the point and I’m sure your Bate’s style Mickey Finns will work great. — George

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You once said you live in a world we can only imagine.  Well, I have to agree with you there. Seems we are bound to disagree about everything.  Personally, I CANNOT imagine!    :) Wolfgang who has always prided himself on having a fair to horseshit imagination.

When it comes to you, "I can" imagine. I picture you sitting on a big boulder with fist sized rock in your hand over your head.  You’re naked because you cannot imagine wearing clothes in you’re imagination.  Imagine that!  Between your legs are three little, itty-bitty rocks you’re about to try and crack open.  One is a little stone and the other two rocks are you’re own.  You have this confused look on your face Wolfgang. Sitting beside you, on the boulder is a real walnut.  In fact, there are several of them.  In addition to this scene, beside you sits a chimpanzee and he has broken walnut shells scattered all around him.  The chimp has his hand over its’ mouth.  Next to the chimp sits LaCourse with both his hands over his eyes screaming, "I CAN’T LOOK!!" Imagine yourself finally getting up the nerve to hit one of those stones . . . This is really unimaginable.  Can you imagine that Wolfie? I can’t.

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geez guys, I usually keep a box of streamers buried in my vest to play with when there isn’t much doing…some of them look a little like the patterns in that lovely Bates book….that being said, if I was tying streamers for sport, I’d be going after the classic look, original materials and the whole snotty bit…why not, its a fine tradition… Eugene Knapik Toronto

Yes, indeed, and why not when you’re able? g.g.

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……Some of my Mickey Finns look like Mickey Finns too.

Some of mine look more like Mickey Spillane……but it don’t matter……the fish hate ‘em…..like cops hate doughnuts. Wolfgang

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My life as a fly fisherman is a world in which I’m surrounded by books and of many things I’ve invented for fly fishing and its’ patrons. Most often I’m afield and learning by doing.  Sometimes, I will sit down and write a short article so as to give back a little of what I’ve learned, if just a little of that cloak which surrounds me and which was my life. You once said you live in a world we can only imagine.  Well, I have to agree with you there. Seems we are bound to disagree about everything.  Personally, I CANNOT imagine!    :)

Try staying up for a week, consuming nothing but double espresso until the 8th day, and then eating 4 pounds of anchovy paste and a box of dry Grape Nuts, all washed down with about a gallon of grain alcohol Thunderdog, and then, find a carnival and buy an hour on the Tilt-a-Whirl…come home and try to post, from memory, the entire "St Crispen’s Day" speech from Henry V, as "your good friend" Yogi Berra would have made it, embellished with a critique of the strategies used in the Battle of Agincourt….in the first person plural, of course… TA-DA!  Ginklespew!  Literary Ginklespew, but Ginklespew shall it be… TC, R who knows Ginkles just holds his manhood, such as it may be, cheap… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Wolfgang who has always prided himself on having a fair to horseshit imagination.

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My life as a fly fisherman is a world in which I’m surrounded by books and of many things I’ve invented for fly fishing and its’ patrons. Most often I’m afield and learning by doing.  Sometimes, I will sit down and write a short article so as to give back a little of what I’ve learned, if just a little of that cloak which surrounds me and which was my life.

You once said you live in a world we can only imagine.  Well, I have to agree with you there.

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My life as a fly fisherman is a world in which I’m surrounded by books and of many things I’ve invented for fly fishing and its’ patrons. Most often I’m afield and learning by doing.  Sometimes, I will sit down and write a short article so as to give back a little of what I’ve learned, if just a little of that cloak which surrounds me and which was my life. You once said you live in a world we can only imagine.  Well, I have to agree with you there.

Seems we are bound to disagree about everything.  Personally, I CANNOT imagine!    :) Wolfgang who has always prided himself on having a fair to horseshit imagination.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Somehow, I enjoy the names of such streamers as "The Black Nosed Dace, The Alaskan Mary Ann, or the classic Mickey Finn," which are explained in perfect detail without being bastardized by modern short cuts or tying techniques which can have a half dozen or more un-original opinions on how to tie the classics.  It’s sacrilege and the new versions of such flies changed in print really makes the art of fly tying these classics a polluted sport. <incessant droning snipped Use of new materials, modern shortcuts, variation, adaptation to local conditions are what tying your own flies is all about.  Only collectors care if a particular fly is tied according to some magical formula using eye of jungle cock and wing of argus.  Most of us only care about catching fish, and we tie flies that hopefully work on our home waters.  Trial and error experimentation is what drives the evolution of working flies, not magic formulas. There was a lengthy thread on rofft earlier this year about why people tie their own flies, and the ability to adapt a pattern over time to be more effective is probably the biggest reason.  It’s why I tie my own caddisses instead of buying the cookie cutter versions from a fly shop. Fly fishing and fly tying is not a hero worship contest.  The best fishermen and tyers I’ve met were not big name pros, but rather regular guys, carpenters, desk jockeys, doctors, computer geeks (gotta love the computer geeks), electricians and plumbers who just love the activity for it’s own sake.  We will tie our flies and go fishing regardless of the cult figures who try to make a living out of our sport. –Stan (tying for the hell of it)

I understand what you’re saying Stan but your spin off my post doesn’t quite gel to what I was trying to say.  I will elucidate upon it a little more for media clarification here. Let’s mention the Alaskan Mary Ann and Mickey Finn Streamers.  These are specific names of the original streamers.  If you, as a fly tier are going to write an article on the Mickey Finn, the literary world will assume you’re tying the original version per "Bates" recorded version. IF, on the other hand you’re going to write about the Mickey Finn using modern day artificial materials, then in my opinion, you cannot and should not refer to the fly as THE Mickey Fin but rather The Mickey Fin (AM Version).  This means, Artificial Materials Version, a modern day deviation.  It may be better than the original and then again it may not.   The short of it is this.  There is only one original way to tie the Mickey Finn. (as an example) If you deviate from that original version in any way, your fly has to (should) give notice or credit to "any" changes.  It would be the responsible thing to do if and when anyone writes about traditional patterns in the future. George Gehrke

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        (self serving simpering snipped) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s sacrilege and the new versions of such flies changed in print really makes the art of fly tying these classics a polluted sport. <incessant droning snipped Big freaking deal. Fly fishing and fly tying is not a hero worship contest.  The best fishermen and tyers I’ve met were not big name pros, but rather regular guys, carpenters, desk jockeys, doctors, computer geeks (gotta love the computer geeks), electricians and plumbers who just love the activity for it’s own sake.  We will tie our flies and go fishing regardless of the cult figures who try to make a living out of our sport. –Stan (tying for the hell of it)

        stan, surely you see that the whole point of that pompous blathering was george’s attempt to have us peons recognize that he walks daily with the legends of the sport—and, ultimately, to demonstrate that he, too, is part of the same immortal pantheon.         yeah, i figured you understood. your friend in the old north state wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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geez guys, I usually keep a box of streamers buried in my vest to play with when there isn’t much doing…some of them look a little like the patterns in that lovely Bates book….that being said, if I was tying streamers for sport, I’d be going after the classic look, original materials and the whole snotty bit…why not, its a fine tradition… Eugene Knapik Toronto

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I regard Bates book on streamers a classic for modern times mainly because the materials are logged accurately.  I find myself going back to Bates tying instructions more and more since I purchased the NOR Vise because with it, the materials are spun better and the shapes are well honed due to this rotary’s smooth nature.  Self control can’t be better. Does NOR make a keyboard? Somehow, I enjoy the names of such streamers as "The Black Nosed Dace, The Alaskan Mary Ann, or the classic Mickey Finn," which are explained in perfect detail without being bastardized by modern short cuts or tying techniques which can have a half dozen or more un-original opinions on how to tie the classics.  It’s sacrilege and the new versions of such flies changed in print really makes the art of fly tying these classics a polluted sport. DAMN STRAIGHT!  Let’s get back to the original twelve of Walton…except his were derivative of the _Treatyse_….so let’s get back to those twelve…anybody got a source for "rotty wull" and "redde hakyll?"  But shucks, that won’t work, because the "Dame" was apparently a 15th century Ginkles – a mostly made up, derivative plagiarism, added to sell stuff (in this case, books, and while looking to the _Treatyse_ for contextual historic info is useful, it is what it is…).  What are we to do? Now, don’t misunderstand me No danger of that…SPLORK VANG MU to the nTH power… between what I like and dislike when it comes to relieving fly tying material pressures upon the creatures of our realm.  For instance, there just isn’t enough Polar Bears to go around to supply the fur to tie enough Alaskan Mary Ann’s should the Streamer Fly Fishing Public rediscover just how deadly a fly this old mainstay is.  Besides being beautiful just to look at, The Alaskan Mary Ann isn’t known very well today.  If it wasn’t for the fact that the majority of today’s fly fishermen are just as happy to use an artificial substitute to replace the iridescent qualities of Polar Bear Hair, it wouldn’t be a good idea to state this flies praises.  Consider, for instance, that one has to kill one, very large, very wild, very remote living, very uncooperative, animal that wants to do just one thing.  Eat you! Is it any wonder that any of us (self included)should be able to figure something else out jus to tie ONE FLY out of one very unusual hide?  The price is just too, too much. But..but..but you said…so, let’s recap: if you don’t use the original material, it’s "sacrilege" that "pollutes" the sport, but you yourself do it…oh, wait, I see it’s a confession…well, carry on, then… However! I don’t like where this is heading – a confession, but with an excuse… Some of us still have some Polar Bear from over fifty years ago and with us, the original Alaskan Mary Ann still lives, via Bates’ versions taken directly from his wonderful classic.  (Today, new materials replace the need to kill Polar Bears) Sacrilege!  Pollution, I say… Polar Bear is a very difficult fur to duplicate artificially because some of it has a certain gold tinge to it.  I’ve been able to duplicate that in the series of fly tying materials we manufacture. AHA!  It’s not just a confession with an excuse, it’s SPAM! (name-dropping section edited for space) …Bates…Today’s Masters,  such as Dan Byford of Zonker fame… Dave Whitlock and unsung to most…is the fact that Ernest Schwiebert has magic, artistic hands…such as Doug Swisher… Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Joe DiMaggio, Jackie Robinson…hey, I wrote the names so I’m a famous dead baseball legend, too!  Boy, this is cool! Cookie Monster, Big Bird, Oscar, Gink…hey, you’re a Muppet! To become a fly fisherman and to be known "as a fly fisherman" is not a gift that is handed to us.  It requires work and if not years of work, Sorta like "Ginkles," "jehrke," "putz," and one of my personal favs, "Muppethead"… for some, its a lifetime of study and dedication.  If any of us thought we knew it all, most would stop fly fishing for it has become boring for them. So you’ve quit fishing?  Oh, clever – you wrote "most"… My life as a fly fisherman is a world in which I’m surrounded by books and of many things I’ve invented for fly fishing and its’ patrons. Um, invented?  Well, OK, to be fair, maybe the combination flyrod, tomato stake, and tiki torch is all yours, but I don’t know if that will get you a place in the history books, Ginkles…I mean, someone will point out the damn things shoulda been burnt anyway, and about all they’re good for is plant-staking, and it sorta knocks the cache of ownership from your "invention"… Most often I’m afield and learning by doing. And you’ll never wizz on an electrified fence again, right? Sometimes, I will sit down and write a short article so as to give back a little of what I’ve learned, I agree: Nothing gained, nothing ventured…. if just a little of that cloak which surrounds me and which was my life. Have you considered using mothballs in the cloakroom, Ginkles?

Response:

I regard Bates book on streamers a classic for modern times mainly because the materials are logged accurately.  I find myself going back to Bates tying instructions more and more since I purchased the NOR Vise because with it, the materials are spun better and the shapes are well honed due to this rotary’s smooth nature.  Self control can’t be better.

Does NOR make a keyboard? Somehow, I enjoy the names of such streamers as "The Black Nosed Dace, The Alaskan Mary Ann, or the classic Mickey Finn," which are explained in perfect detail without being bastardized by modern short cuts or tying techniques which can have a half dozen or more un-original opinions on how to tie the classics.  It’s sacrilege and the new versions of such flies changed in print really makes the art of fly tying these classics a polluted sport.

DAMN STRAIGHT!  Let’s get back to the original twelve of Walton…except his were derivative of the _Treatyse_….so let’s get back to those twelve…anybody got a source for "rotty wull" and "redde hakyll?"  But shucks, that won’t work, because the "Dame" was apparently a 15th century Ginkles – a mostly made up, derivative plagiarism, added to sell stuff (in this case, books, and while looking to the _Treatyse_ for contextual historic info is useful, it is what it is…).  What are we to do? Now, don’t misunderstand me

No danger of that…SPLORK VANG MU to the nTH power… between what I like and dislike when it comes to relieving fly tying material pressures upon the creatures of our realm.  For instance, there just isn’t enough Polar Bears to go around to supply the fur to tie enough Alaskan Mary Ann

Question:

Can any one recommend information regarding a destination for flyrodding for pike in Canada.  I am looking for a location, not necessarily a lodge.  (A lodge may be a reasonable choice since I do not care to cook.)  However a boat rental might be necessary.  I would need airport service since I would be flying in from the SE USA.  Please respond directly via e-mail. Thank you. "If I have been able to see over the horizon, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants," Sir Isaac Newton

Response:

A possible source of information is at the only exclusively fly fishing store and guide service that I know of in Manitoba. They advertise for trout trips etc but they may be able to put you in contact with someone else who can help. Hope this helps. http://www.northernangler.mb.ca/index.html

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Rod builders out there . . . The subject company (a small business I suspect) offers graphite rod building kits for about $70.  No manufacturer mentioned for the blanks.  I am considering this as a good way to build a first rod and learn without spending big bucks on a good blank.  The rod would then be used for teaching my 9 year old to cast and if I learn how to build a rod and feel confident, I’ll do one on a nice blank.  Anyway: Have any of you folks built a rod from this guy and can you tell me if it was reasonable quality.  I don’t want to pay $70 and find out it is junk. The web site is:  http://www.jbrodco.com/ Let me know, Jim

Jim You could spend more for less at wally world, if you want or expect a custom sage, forget it.  What do you want for 70 bucks..?                 Why don’t you ask him what kind of hardware is included..? You maybe should ask him to put it together for you too.

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As I indicated – I am looking for a good starter set of components I can use to learn on, before building a Sage or similar blank.  I have no issue with spending a few bucks on good components or a completed rod (as all my rods are today) I want to try rod-building. I have asked him about the stuff, but I was looking for other opinions from those who may have actually bought a kit and used them. Jim * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Hi Jim, As stated by another responding to you, ask the seller what components come with the kit.  Things to look for are what the blank is made from, who makes it, is it fast or slow action, what is the warranty on the blank, does he have any references of those who have already built from the kit.  Next I would get the name of the manufacturer of the various components, I.E., reel seat, guides (ask how many stripping guides), cork handle, thread, type of finishing materials included and any other stuff you can think of.  I would than look on the net to compare prices or get a few catalogs from places like Angler’s Workshop, Head & Tails, Cabelas, Dale Clemens and whomever else you can think of who sells blanks and rod building gear.  There are rod building sights on the net in addition to magazines devoted to the subject. You might want to check out Fly Rod & Reel and Fly Fishing and Tying Journal.  I have seen classified ads in these magazines for blanks and kits. I have found blanks in the past that are absolutely incredible.  Some are only $3-4 per foot, and are so good that I can not, for the life of me, explain how the big guys like Sage, Loomis, T&T and others get so much for their blanks/rods. Good luck with your project.  No matter what you eventually purchase, you will enjoy the process with your son and it will help you make informed decisions for future projects. Pete

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rod builders out there . . . The subject company (a small business I suspect) offers graphite rod building kits for about $70.  No manufacturer mentioned for the blanks.  I am considering this as a good way to build a first rod and learn without spending big bucks on a good blank.  The rod would then be used for teaching my 9 year old to cast and if I learn how to build a rod and feel confident, I’ll do one on a nice blank.  Anyway: Have any of you folks built a rod from this guy and can you tell me if it was reasonable quality.  I don’t want to pay $70 and find out it is junk. The web site is:  http://www.jbrodco.com/ Let me know, Jim * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Rod builders out there . . . The subject company (a small business I suspect) offers graphite rod building kits for about $70.  No manufacturer mentioned for the blanks.  I am considering this as a good way to build a first rod and learn without spending big bucks on a good blank.  The rod would then be used for teaching my 9 year old to cast and if I learn how to build a rod and feel confident, I’ll do one on a nice blank.  Anyway: Have any of you folks built a rod from this guy and can you tell me if it was reasonable quality.  I don’t want to pay $70 and find out it is junk. The web site is:  http://www.jbrodco.com/ Let me know, Jim * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Question:

I am only 16 and just starting to flyfish. I plan to do some fly fishing on a local stream this weekend. What are the best kinds of fly’s to use?

Hi Jared, The simple thing to do for this weekend would be to check with your local fly shop to see what info they have on the local river you plan to fish.  It’s in their best interest to help you be successfull so don’t hesitate to ask.  If they won’t give you the time of day, go to a different shop. The suggestions Donn gave you are the best for the long term though.  Learn the basic life-cycles of mayflies, caddisflies, stoneflies, and midges.  Learn to identify them.  Don’t need to know the particular species or latin name, but at least learn to tell the difference between mayflies and caddisflies, etc.  To start, ignore the latin names most books will give, though they may interest you later.   Remeber, the other spelling for entomolgy is "bugs".  Learn how to take a stream sample without destroying a lot of habitat.  What works can change from hour to hour let alone week to week and if you can identify what’s available you’ll do much better than "chuck it and chance it."  You’ll never learn it all, but you’ll have a great time trying.                                      good fishing,                                              Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

Response:

Jared, That is a question that even 66 year old men ask.  This is what fly fishing is all about and what you spend a life time doing in this sport to try to figure out.  The fly can change from one moment to the next to the next and so on.  I can change right in front of you for several hundred different reasons. Do not get overwhelmed by this but just look at it as a challenge.  Do yourself a favor and try to do a couple of the following things and it will make you a much better fly fisher. First and foremost – learn the basics of entomology; this looks hard but really isn’t.  Get with another fisherman who understands the basics and have him explain it to you.  Pick up any of many primers on this to help you. Next – Check the streams you intend to fish for what type of insects you have and when they hatch and how they act. Next – Begin gathering those insects in specimen bottles and preserving them for future studies.  Hopefully in the not too distant future, you can begin tying flies and you will have a data base to begin to copy.  Pick up some isopropyl alcohol from Wal-Mart, K-Mart or any drug store; it is very inexpensive.  Put a solution of 90% alcohol and 10% water in the vial and then add your insect and cover. Put a sticker of some kind on it and put what it is and where you got it from.  If you want to begin a diary of all this, it will help you learn faster and give you tremendous abount of your own information that is better than anything you hear or read. Next – Always be observant for changes in anything in or around the river and what effect it has on the fish and insects.  Go with other fly fishers and ask questions.   Your brain is a many giga-byte hard drive and just begin to fill it with as many bite of information as you can.  You will never come close to getting them all and just never stop; it is a life long endeavor. This is not tuff stuff and as long as you enjoy it, it will be easy and fun and make you an experinced fly fisher at the same time. Donn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am only 16 and just starting to flyfish. I plan to do some fly fishing on a local stream this weekend. What are the best kinds of fly’s to use? Thankyou Tight Lines, Jared Staskiel "In our family, there was no clear line between religion and                fly fishing"                     —Norman Maclean (1976)

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I am only 16 and just starting to flyfish. I plan to do some fly fishing on a local stream this weekend. What are the best kinds of fly’s to use? Thankyou Tight Lines, Jared Staskiel "In our family, there was no clear line between religion and                 fly fishing"                     —Norman Maclean (1976)

Response:

Question:

: :Is it really possible-as our friend with his first boat seems to think it :is-for  any  GPS to "steer" a boat running WOT around all these hazards?   no, the accuracy is only good to 50ft or so under ideal conditions. — george jefferson

Response:

| Now, the question: | | Is it really possible-as our friend with his first boat seems to think it | is-for  any  GPS to "steer" a boat running WOT around all these hazards?   | Seems to me it would take a complete map of the bottom and more waypoints | than any  device could handle. | | Peggie Hall/Peal Products | Specializing in marine toilet systems since 1987 | (And should prob’ly stick to giving plumbing advice only!) | | Peggie, If your boating friends make such wide-sweeping assumptions that you do, then I can understand why they would run aground in the middle of a channel! Actually, many ocean-going boats have much more advanced guidance and navigation systems than most of the lake-trailers that you see on Lake Lanier. Auto-pilots and GPS combined are used by many fishing and scuba outfits to drop almost dead-on a target with minimal search. I’ve seen it done many times. Please read what I have written again. If I was looking for a target, why would I run WOT? However, if I was heading for a fishing spot on, say, Lake Hiwassee, and I knew the GPS co-ordinates, then why do you fail to see the value in inland lake GPS? Actually, there are GPS maps of many lakes available, with features pre-programmed. Plug and play, as it were. I doubt that any electronics, whether it be GPS or marine radios, can replace the instrument between your ears. Now, you want to talk useless. With a toilet at every ramp, who needs a marine toilet?

Response:

I doubt that any electronics, whether it be GPS or marine radios, can replace the instrument between your ears.

Absolutely true. You mentioned going fast, night running, unfamiliarity with powerboats, unfamiliarity with the lake (which has a nasty habit of changing week to week)…and spoke of using a GPS to do your navigating. But from your above comments, it’s obvious I misread your intent to use it to navigate going fast at night…Sorry!  However,  when you’ve heard as many stories as I have about some of the ideas new boat owners have, it’s understandable.  The best one recently was a dealer who told me about a first time buyer who wanted GPS and an autopilot on his new houseboat so it could take him back to his slip at night if he was too drunk to do it himself! I see bass boats hauling all over the lake at night at WOT (more often than not with no lights showing BTW)… occasionally hear of  tragic consequences….I just don’t want you to be  one of  ’em. Now, you want to talk useless. With a toilet at every ramp, who needs a marine toilet?

Anyone who has a boat with enough privacy for one who doesn’t  want to go find a toilet on land every time his wife has to pee! <gg Bring that shiny new toy up my way one of these days and I’ll buy you a beer…it’s the least I can do after insulting your intelligence! Peggie Hall/Peal Products Specializing in marine toilet systems since 1987

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WARNING – This post will have little content. I picked up my first bass boat on Saturday and I am gleaming from ear to ear.

Welcome to boating!  I plan to add a Bimini top, fishfinder(s), bilge pump (not included!), and a tachometer, once the checkbook balances out. I even have to add tie-down cleats! I put in another 6 gallon tank.

Welcome to the reality of owning (and dumping money into) a boat . . .

Response:

For one thing, you’ll learn that GPS isn’t a speedometer…it stands for Global Positioning System…it’s a computerized satellite navigation system that tells you where you are and what course to steer in latitude/longitude terms. Since you can always see the shore on all sides, you don’t need one to find your way home on Lanier!

Gee, my GPS displays current course and speed. (In knots, statute miles per hour, or km per hour) If you go over the the sci… groups, you can debate whether the speed is calculated based on delta-t / delta-d or doppler shift. Lee Lindquist     lindquist ‘at’ ibm.net "Only 2 more years until people stop telling me when the millenium REALLY ends."

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For one thing, you’ll learn that GPS isn’t a speedometer…it stands for Global Positioning System…it’s a computerized satellite navigation system that tells you where you are and what course to steer in latitude/longitude terms. Since you can always see the shore on all sides, you don’t need one to find your way home on Lanier! Gee, my GPS displays current course and speed. (In knots, statute miles per hour, or km per hour) If you go over the the sci… groups, you can debate whether the speed is calculated based on delta-t / delta-d or doppler shift.

So I’ve heard from a dozen people via e-mail!  Since there’s no real practical use for ‘em on an inland lake, the only ones I’ve seen were on friends’ sailboats on the Chesapeake Bay….and those only showed course and position. The owners  all have separate knotmeters. How ’bout expanding  my learning curve a bit more…first, the lake conditions: Lanier is a river in the foothills of the Smokies that was dammed and spread out over hills & valleys…around 260′ deep at the dam, but as little as 15′ deep up "creeks" out of the main channel. The water level fluctuates as much as 13′…what’s  6′ below the surface-and no problem–at full pool can "rise" to 2′ below it in a  matter of a week or two,  much of  it in the middle of  channels.  And the shoreline "moves" as a result.  In fact, the shoreline is "expanding" and islands  are shrinking–some have disappeared –due primarily to wake…Lanier is the most-used Corps of Engineers lake in the country. While the areas that are always shallow, many of which are passable when the lake is at full pool, but not when it’s down as little as 2′,  are marked,  it’s impossible to mark the ones that appear and disappear with fluctuating water levels as fast as often happens …and markers get knocked down. "Local knowledge" of the reefs and shoal waters is  essential…prop and outdrive repair accounts for a major percentage of the marine repair  business around the lake…even seasoned boaters who’ve been on the lake for more than a decade fall victim, proceeding VERY cautiously even in the daytime, and especially at night. Just last fall a friend who’s had a houseboat on the lake for more than 20 years lost an outdrive on an unmarked shoal in the main  channel of the lake, more than 100 yds from the shore…running at about  1200 rpms, but not paying enough attention to his course. Now, the question: Is it really possible-as our friend with his first boat seems to think it is-for  any  GPS to "steer" a boat running WOT around all these hazards?   Seems to me it would take a complete map of the bottom and more waypoints than any  device could handle. Peggie Hall/Peal Products Specializing in marine toilet systems since 1987 (And should prob’ly stick to giving plumbing advice only!)

Response:

| Congratulations!  You’re about to find out why B.O.A.T. stands for Break | Out Another Thousand! <gg | | However…. | | I am new to powered boats, but have driven friend’s boats. This boat | will fly! I am not sure how fast, though – no GPS, yet. I plan to add… | | But first do the rest of us on Lanier–and yourself–a HUGE favor: take | a Coast Guard Auxiliary or US Power Squadron boating safety course! | | For one thing, you’ll learn that GPS isn’t a speedometer…it stands for | Global Positioning System…it’s a computerized satellite navigation | system that tells you where you are and what course to steer in | latitude/longitude terms. Since you can always see the shore on all | sides, you don’t need one to find your way home on Lanier! | | You DO need a VHF radio, however…so you can call for help when you run | out of gas. <GG | | A boating safety course costs nothing but the time to do it. You’ll | learn the rules of the road, correct VHF procedure, how to read a chart, | how to recognize when weather is building and get to shelter before the | storm hits (I’ve been on Lanier in sudden squalls packing 45 knot | winds–NOT where someone in a 17′ open boat wants to be!)…safety gear | and how to use it–what’s required…a whole BUNCH of information that | could save your life–or mine. <g | | Have fun and be safe!  When you get the radio (and learn how to use it), | call SOLITAIRE…I’d love to see your boat. | | Peggie Hall/Peal Products | Specializing in marine toilet systems since 1987 | | Peggie | Thanks Peggy, I am reading a boating safety manual right now, which is probably more than most boaters do as a minimum. It is not my first time on the water, just my first power boat. I’ve have four other boats under the deck. Thanks, too, for the info on the GPS. I was trying to head off the corrective comments about speedometers not being accurate. GPS is a lot more useful than just finding your way back to the dock, in my estimation. It can be a safety device in tough boating conditions such as inclement weather or just being in the dark. Shorelines can be tricky to read in the dark, and one might not want to run next to waterway markers if there is a boat anchored nearby. Last, but not least, GPS can be used to re-locate positions, whether it be underwater cover, building foundations (my wife and I are divers, as well), and submerged islands, particularly on the distant lakes where I plan to trailer my boat. Not too sure I need a VHF radio, though. I’ve got twelve gallons of gas and I am an awful cautious. I switch over a tank leaving enough to get back on in the empty. I prefer to have a HONKIN’ bilge pump with a redundant back-up to buy me enough time to get to safety or shore. I have been in a thirteen foot Ghenoe on a river when it was raining so hard and the boat was filling with water so fast that I couldn’t stop bailing long enough to set the gear out of the boat on the bank! I’ve also paddled the Ocoee river in my kayak a few of times and gotten chewed up by Double Trouble and Diamond Splitter, as well as Hell Hole and Double Suck, but I’ll say this…it wasn’t as thrilling as cruising the lake in MY BASS BOAT!!! See you on the water.

Response:

Congratulations!  You’re about to find out why B.O.A.T. stands for Break Out Another Thousand! <gg However…. I am new to powered boats, but have driven friend’s boats. This boat will fly! I am not sure how fast, though – no GPS, yet. I plan to add…

But first do the rest of us on Lanier–and yourself–a HUGE favor: take a Coast Guard Auxiliary or US Power Squadron boating safety course! For one thing, you’ll learn that GPS isn’t a speedometer…it stands for Global Positioning System…it’s a computerized satellite navigation system that tells you where you are and what course to steer in latitude/longitude terms. Since you can always see the shore on all sides, you don’t need one to find your way home on Lanier! You DO need a VHF radio, however…so you can call for help when you run out of gas. <GG A boating safety course costs nothing but the time to do it. You’ll learn the rules of the road, correct VHF procedure, how to read a chart, how to recognize when weather is building and get to shelter before the storm hits (I’ve been on Lanier in sudden squalls packing 45 knot winds–NOT where someone in a 17′ open boat wants to be!)…safety gear and how to use it–what’s required…a whole BUNCH of information that could save your life–or mine. <g Have fun and be safe!  When you get the radio (and learn how to use it), call SOLITAIRE…I’d love to see your boat. Peggie Hall/Peal Products Specializing in marine toilet systems since 1987 Peggie

Response:

I think its great that you got you’re first boat. I bought my first boat as well last week. Its an old boat a ‘72 Starcraft with a small motor (35 HP). We took it out Sunday and ran around a local lake. Sonce i was a kid I’ve wanted a boat. Someday, I’ll upgrade, but I’m just in heaven from this boat. I did not catch any fish my first time out, but I did not really try. Have fun and be safe. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – WARNING – This post will have little content. I picked up my first bass boat on Saturday and I am gleaming from ear to ear. I bought a 17ft Grumman with console steering with a 50HP Johnson with pwr trim/ tilt. Two casting decks, aerated livewell, and a Johnson foot-operated trolling motor. My wife and I went out both Saturday and Sunday on Lake Lanier (north of Atlanta) and just had a blast. I caught a small spotted bass (about 1-1/4#) and she made me bring him home and clean him, since it was the inaugural bass, in the first 15 minutes of fishing! I am new to powered boats, but have driven friend’s boats. This boat will fly! I am not sure how fast, though – no GPS, yet. I plan to add a Bimini top, fishfinder(s), bilge pump (not included!), and a tachometer, once the checkbook balances out. I even have to add tie-down cleats! I put in another 6 gallon tank. This boat sips fuel, though. My wife loves it and the dogs were great for their first trip out. Got to get that bimini top on, though, for everyone’s sake. There was hardly anybody on the lake, especially yesterday. Although, it was partly sunny, we saw only a dozen boats. Great time for us to try out our new baby. The name of our new boat? Well, I guess we’re getting silly as we age, but we call our new Ford truck the "Golden Boy" (after the "Seinfeld" episode), so our aluminum boat is called the "Silver Queen", after the corn we love to pick out of our teeth. See you on the water…

Response:

This is what it is all ABOUT!!! Tear it up Tom & family…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – WARNING – This post will have little content. I picked up my first bass boat on Saturday and I am gleaming from ear to ear. I bought a 17ft Grumman with console steering with a 50HP Johnson with pwr trim/ tilt. Two casting decks, aerated livewell, and a Johnson foot-operated trolling motor. My wife and I went out both Saturday and Sunday on Lake Lanier (north of Atlanta) and just had a blast. I caught a small spotted bass (about 1-1/4#) and she made me bring him home and clean him, since it was the inaugural bass, in the first 15 minutes of fishing! I am new to powered boats, but have driven friend’s boats. This boat will fly! I am not sure how fast, though – no GPS, yet. I plan to add a Bimini top, fishfinder(s), bilge pump (not included!), and a tachometer, once the checkbook balances out. I even have to add tie-down cleats! I put in another 6 gallon tank. This boat sips fuel, though. My wife loves it and the dogs were great for their first trip out. Got to get that bimini top on, though, for everyone’s sake. There was hardly anybody on the lake, especially yesterday. Although, it was partly sunny, we saw only a dozen boats. Great time for us to try out our new baby. The name of our new boat? Well, I guess we’re getting silly as we age, but we call our new Ford truck the "Golden Boy" (after the "Seinfeld" episode), so our aluminum boat is called the "Silver Queen", after the corn we love to pick out of our teeth. See you on the water…

Response:

WARNING – This post will have little content. I picked up my first bass boat on Saturday and I am gleaming from ear to ear. I bought a 17ft Grumman with console steering with a 50HP Johnson with pwr trim/ tilt. Two casting decks, aerated livewell, and a Johnson foot-operated trolling motor. My wife and I went out both Saturday and Sunday on Lake Lanier (north of Atlanta) and just had a blast. I caught a small spotted bass (about 1-1/4#) and she made me bring him home and clean him, since it was the inaugural bass, in the first 15 minutes of fishing! I am new to powered boats, but have driven friend’s boats. This boat will fly! I am not sure how fast, though – no GPS, yet. I plan to add a Bimini top, fishfinder(s), bilge pump (not included!), and a tachometer, once the checkbook balances out. I even have to add tie-down cleats! I put in another 6 gallon tank. This boat sips fuel, though. My wife loves it and the dogs were great for their first trip out. Got to get that bimini top on, though, for everyone’s sake. There was hardly anybody on the lake, especially yesterday. Although, it was partly sunny, we saw only a dozen boats. Great time for us to try out our new baby. The name of our new boat? Well, I guess we’re getting silly as we age, but we call our new Ford truck the "Golden Boy" (after the "Seinfeld" episode), so our aluminum boat is called the "Silver Queen", after the corn we love to pick out of our teeth. See you on the water…

Response:

Question:

:   : Fishing Company and we have the Fly Tech waders in our online catalog at : I have been hearing good things about these waders and suspect that they I bought a pair of Fly-Techs 2 summers ago, looking for low-cost, light wieght pack waders. These were *junk*! The seam broke on the second use — the store took them back and said every one they sold ripped rightaway. They sent what they had left back, and will not stock FlyTech stuff again. I definitely wouldn’t buy these mail-order. But I’m just relating my experience; perhaps others have had better. Because of the boot-foot’s popularity in hunting, etc., you can get decent (though heavy) boot-foot waders at a reasonable price (my Red Balls are still going strong). But I’m still searching for some stocking-foot waders FRU (For the Rest of Us)… JonCook.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :   : Fishing Company and we have the Fly Tech waders in our online catalog at : I have been hearing good things about these waders and suspect that they I bought a pair of Fly-Techs 2 summers ago, looking for low-cost, light wieght pack waders. These were *junk*! The seam broke on the second use — the store took them back and said every one they sold ripped rightaway. They sent what they had left back, and will not stock FlyTech stuff again. I definitely wouldn’t buy these mail-order. But I’m just relating my experience; perhaps others have had better. Because of the boot-foot’s popularity in hunting, etc., you can get decent (though heavy) boot-foot waders at a reasonable price (my Red Balls are still going strong). But I’m still searching for some stocking-foot waders FRU (For the Rest of Us)… JonCook.Jammerlab

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Rich, In response to your inquiry about boot foot vs stocking foot waders I prefer the bootfoot waders since my waders pull double duty for waterfowl hunting. I am always concerned about losing a boot when encoutering the muck associated with waterfowling. I am a representative of Champion Fishing Company and we have the Fly Tech waders in our online catalog at http://championfishing.com I have been hearing good things about these waders and suspect that they will be a good seller for us. Both stocking foot and boot foot waders are offered in both 3.5 and 5 mm weights as well as wading boots for the stocking foot waders. If you are interested in the Champion Fishing Company business opportunity check out my website at http://members.aol.com/blind10691/index.htm or e mail me for more info and a copy of our 200 page print catalog. Happy Fishing, Brett Lindsey

Brett,      I just pulled up "http://championfishing.com" and I was at the "Kerrville Telephone Company’s I-NET service" web page.  You may want to have someone look into this. However:    http://www.championfishing.com seems to work fine. Brian

Response:

Hi Rich, In response to your inquiry about boot foot vs stocking foot waders I prefer the bootfoot waders since my waders pull double duty for waterfowl hunting. I am always concerned about losing a boot when encoutering the muck associated with waterfowling. I am a representative of Champion Fishing Company and we have the Fly Tech waders in our online catalog at http://championfishing.com I have been hearing good things about these waders and suspect that they will be a good seller for us. Both stocking foot and boot foot waders are offered in both 3.5 and 5 mm weights as well as wading boots for the stocking foot waders. If you are interested in the Champion Fishing Company business opportunity check out my website at http://members.aol.com/blind10691/index.htm or e mail me for more info and a copy of our 200 page print catalog. Happy Fishing, Brett Lindsey

Response:

I fish exclusively in southern chile. I used to fish with boots. not anymore. shoes are far more pleasant to use than boots. I use Hodgman shoes and like them. That is my experience. Others may disagree. Mario http://www.inteligente.cl/Clientes/Sur_de_Chile/sur.html

Response:

Fished in bootfoot wader for years and its time for a new pair.   Before I make the plunge for new ones would like to hear some of your opinions on which kind to buy (boot or stocking) as I can only afford one pair.  Also any comments on brands, types and/or styles would be appreciated. Thanks Rich

Hi Rich, Boot foot waders are very fast and easy to put on and are warmer in extreme cold. Great for certain situations. Stocking foot with lace up boots give you better foot protection and stability for hiking on streams. In our store in California we sell  99% stocking foot waders. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

Response:

How about durability ? I have owned a pair of Orvis stockingfoot for 5 years, I have used them a lot, and as a result there is still some neoprene between the patches and the aquaseal, I believe. Anyway, I have notices that even though I use gravel cuffs, I tend to get leaks in the foot area, because of friction between the boot and the wader (it is unavoidable, the shoe is flexible, thus there is friction). I am wondering if bootfoot waders are better from the viewpoint of leaks, or if they develop leaks at the joint between the wader and the boot. -Vittorio – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fished in bootfoot wader for years and its time for a new pair. Before I make the plunge for new ones would like to hear some of your opinions on which kind to buy (boot or stocking) as I can only afford one pair.  Also any comments on brands, types and/or styles would be appreciated. Thanks Rich Hi Rich, Boot foot waders are very fast and easy to put on and are warmer in extreme cold. Great for certain situations. Stocking foot with lace up boots give you better foot protection and stability for hiking on streams. In our store in California we sell  99% stocking foot waders. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

Response:

Fished in bootfoot wader for years and its time for a new pair.   Before I make the plunge for new ones would like to hear some of your opinions on which kind to buy (boot or stocking) as I can only afford one pair.  Also any comments on brands, types and/or styles would be appreciated. Thanks Rich

Response:

Fished in bootfoot wader for years and its time for a new pair. Before I make the plunge for new ones would like to hear some of your opinions on which kind to buy (boot or stocking) as I can only afford one pair.  Also any comments on brands, types and/or styles would be appreciated. Thanks Rich

i think that it depends on what time of year you do most of your fishing and how much walking you do in them.  i would never be without my bootfoots for winter fishing (they keep your feet so much toastier, and are so easy to get in and out of)  since you already own a pair you know the one major drawback is that they are a pain to dry out, from taking a cold water dunking or sweat.  in warmer weather i wear stocking foots, but am thinking of getting some bootfoots, because they are so much easier to get in and out of.  one other thing, if you have bad or weak ankles, bootfoots may not provide you with enough ankle support.  i would recommend quiet sport or bare waders.  both have great reputations.

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Best advise don’t buy rotten/cheap wading shoes….get the Borger shoe company that makes them ….sorry no address in WI somewhere…Millwaukee? Anyway once in awhile they have seconds which are of the high end boots like Simms, Streamline as they won’t wear any better or worse than any of the others. use a pair of nlyon Hodgeman’s about $40…..again 3 years old just died due to barb wire…….Cabela’s neoprenes are $90 aren’t bad……Mike — Enter the WWW fly tying contest by visiting my web site:http://www.commonlink.com/~Midwestflytying

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Fished in bootfoot wader for years and its time for a new pair. Before I make the plunge for new ones would like to hear some of your opinions on which kind to buy (boot or stocking) as I can only afford one pair.  Also any comments on brands, types and/or styles would be appreciated. Thanks Rich

I find that stockingfoot/boot combo feels more secure and gives me better ability to cope with uneven river bottoms in the current. However, I keep my first pair of bootfoots around for use in the salt, so I don’t have to worry about corrosion of grommets, etc. on the boots. By the way, I got a pair of Danners, which are kind of pricey, but certainly not as much as a good pair of hiking boots. If you like to get into strong current from time to time, I would highly recommend trying a pair on. The Danners feel like good athletic shoes compared to some of the stiffer wading boots. I have seen an ad for a wading shoe by Bare that looks very similar in construction to the Danner, and may have the same benefits. Fish on, Allen

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Question:

I’m looking for a manual showing all the flys and a picture or a drawing.

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: I’m looking for a manual showing all the flys and a picture or a drawing. ALL the flies?  No way! Impossible!  Too many thousands of patterns. There are some good books out there that act as listings of flies. You may want to try the library and see what they have. You will quickly see what a variety there actually is. Jon Porter

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: I’m looking for a manual showing all the flys and a picture or a drawing. ALL the flies?  No way! Impossible!  Too many thousands of patterns. There are some good books out there that act as listings of flies. You may want to try the library and see what they have. You will quickly see what a variety there actually is. Jon Porter

There are two books that do a fairly good job with photos and recipes for a lot of flies, not even close to all.  They are called Best 1000 Flies by Randall Scott (something) and Umpqua Fly Patterns,or something to that nature.  They are both great books with color photos and specific receipes.  Any fly enthusuist would love either one.You local fly shop should have it, or could order it.  If you run into any problems let  me know.  My store has them available. Take care, Clark Shafer Lost River Outfitters

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I’m looking for a manual showing all the flys and a picture or a drawing.

Hi Your request is difficult but two book that may help are Fish Flies volumes I & II by Terry Hellekson. Those two books come close to covering most of flies. You can get them at a local book store or fly shop OR from Frank Amato Publications. 503-653-8108 Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

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