Question:

Think caddis flies in June, Frank.  Green Rock Worm, tan LaFontaine caddis emerger, throw in a few small PTs (they always work) and a few Goddard Caddis, and voila, you’re there. Dave Well, I’ll start tying now if I can find my vise.  Now, wasn’t that on top of the truck?

What girls did you "visit" while in Coburn? Sounds like you were in a real hurry to get out of town. — TL, Tim

Response:

I forgot to add: I took a ful Reid (without water).  My rock hopping days are surely limited. My feet went out from underneath me like I was on an icy slope.  Smashed by back up pretty good (or is that pretty bad?).  The same shit I suffered through a few months back.  If I bend over, I have trouble getting back up.  (No smart-ass remarks either!) d;o)

Response:

I forgot to add: I took a ful Reid (without water).  My rock hopping days are surely limited. My feet went out from underneath me like I was on an icy slope.  Smashed by back up pretty good (or is that pretty bad?).  The same shit I suffered through a few months back.  If I bend over, I have trouble getting back up.  (No smart-ass remarks either!) d;o)

hey, take care Louie, you’ve got an important fishing date coming up. Hey Dave, if it hurts when you bend, don’t bend.  You have to come and see us soon.  I’m practicing on my new stove.   This is the Jag of all Jags.   The Thanksgiving turkey, the meat pies will all be waiting for you. Did I mention the pumpkin pie? Love Suzie XOXOXO

Response:

…   The Thanksgiving turkey, …

Canadian Thanksgiving makes WAY more sense than the American version. The second Monday of October is a great time to have a real fall harvest fest. The end of November sucks, and besides it’s too close to Xmas. — Ken Fortenberry- left in disgust at the start of the 4th quarter

Response:

Suzie Homemaker writes: he Thanksgiving turkey, the meat pies will all be waiting for you. Did I mention the pumpkin pie? Love Suzie XOXOXO

You’re too much, Jo.  Is it any wonder Petah loves you so.  My Jo says hi.  See you in a week.  Pumpkin pie, eh? Dave

Response:

Suzie Homemaker writes: he Thanksgiving turkey, the meat pies will all be waiting for you. Did I mention the pumpkin pie? Love Suzie XOXOXO You’re too much, Jo.  Is it any wonder Petah loves you so.  My Jo says hi.  See you in a week.  Pumpkin pie, eh? Dave

Can’t wait to see you both on the 13th. Love Suzie

Response:

 Smashed my back up pretty good (or is that pretty bad?).

Enjoyed your TR but sorry to hear about your bad luck. You reminded me that some years ago, an announcer at a Penn State football game announced that a player who had been hurt, and was coming off the field, was "limping pretty good."  I wondered if that was the opposite of "limping pretty bad," or if it meant he was doing it in an accomplished and artistic manner. Hope you get well soon. vince

Response:

Vince Norris writes: You reminded me that some years ago, an announcer at a Penn State football game announced that a player who had been hurt, and was coming off the field, was "limping pretty good."  I wondered if that was the opposite of "limping pretty bad," or if it meant he was doing it in an accomplished and artistic manner. Hope you get well soon. vince

Fortunately I wasn’t hurt badly.  A friend (in his early 70s) saw it, and thought I had to be hurt bad (good?), so he got on his rather sophisticated radio and called his son fishing downriver at Harbeck Pool.  His son started back to help in the "rescue", but when my friend saw me up and about, he called and told the son I was ok.  Nice to know someone was watching out for me. Dave

Response:

ok.  Nice to know someone was watching out for me. Dave

Hey, I worry about you big guy.  With all the luck you’ve had, a wonderful wife, trips to Lakewood left, right and center, that land yacht of yours, I figure your lucks gotta run out sometime. Good report.  I can’t wait to get up there next year.  Ya gotta give me an idear as to what those flies were and if you tinks dayums would work in June. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply

Response:

Frank Reid writes: Ya gotta give me an idear as to what those flies were and if you tinks dayums would work in June.

Think caddis flies in June, Frank.  Green Rock Worm, tan LaFontaine caddis emerger, throw in a few small PTs (they always work) and a few Goddard Caddis, and voila, you’re there.   Dave

Response:

Think caddis flies in June, Frank.  Green Rock Worm, tan LaFontaine caddis emerger, throw in a few small PTs (they always work) and a few Goddard Caddis, and voila, you’re there. Dave

Well, I’ll start tying now if I can find my vise.  Now, wasn’t that on top of the truck? — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply

Response:

The boat was waiting for us when we arrived at South Arm.  It is always amusing to see Henry jump from the car, run down to the dock and get aboard Lakewood’s boat.  (Lakewood owns the boat, so the apotrophe is correct)   After a quick lunch, I headed to the dam.  No one in sight.  I picked one of the good spots and started with Bruiser’s #20 PT, tied on a scudd hook.  Second cast and I had a decent brookie, dressed to the nines in her fall colors.  A few casts later, another brookie.  It went on like this until I lost the fly. %, I only had one.  Fortunately I brought along the fly box that Bruiser gave me at the SJ clave two years ago.  It was filled with little size 20 – 24 jewels.  I selected something similar, and it was *better*.  What an outstanding afternoon.  The catch of brookies to salmon was about 5 to 1.  I can remember when it was 10 to 1 salmon to brookies.  And it wasn’t that long ago.  C & R works (sorry Timbo) On Monday morning I went to Pond in the River – not much happening with the standard stuff.  However, an old stand-by, the Jail Bird tied on a size 20 dry fly hook brought two very nice brook trout from the wing dam pool.  That fly has never failed me!  Very simple tie, too.  After a sumptuous lunch, I was a bit tired, so I napped until mid-afternoon and then hit the dam.   As before, Bruiser’s tiny SJ flies did their magic.  I dredged Zimbo’s Run and landed several nice (+14 inch) brookies, as well as some  salmon about the same size.  The fish looked to be in remarkable condition, especially the brookies. Only a couple of salmon that I caught (the entire week) had sores on their jaws from being hooked.  There was a team of biologists surveying the river for the power company.  I had a conversation with them at dinner and asked about the mortality of C&R.  Although they didn’t give me a percentage, their feelings were that the brookies are very strong and their mortality is very, very low, whereas the salmon, dumber and not as strong, still have a low mortality.  With the number of fish I caught that looked healthy, I’d say they were spot on in their estimation. Tuesday was a repeat of Monday, with the exception of a 19 inch brookie taken on one of Bruisers #20 nymphs.  I also worked some rising salmon.  There was a hatch on, and I cast a tiny little black fly.  In general, they were small fish – in the 8 to 12 inch range, and no brookies.  So, I switched back to the little nymphs and continued to have luck at any spot at the dam.  Again, the brookies were ferocious with Bruiser’s flies. Wednesday, Thursday and Friday were the same, except Friday it rained harder than it did at Henry’s Fork (if that is possible).  We got about 4 inches of water in less than 24 hours.  Fishing remained fairly good, however, and I finally got a chance to wear my SST jacket.  Kept me dry and warm.  Sleeping in one of Lakewood’s cabins is always a treat, but when it is cold and raining, it is extra sweet.   The season ends on Tuesday.  I’ve been home three hours and I’m ready to go back.  It is gonna be a long winter……. Dave

Response:

Question:

wish ‘em luck Peter

An article in The Electronic Telegraph, a London e-paper, has an article on the SAS unit.  Also mentioned was the deployment of Tornados to the "little" military exercise in Oman, with about 20,000 people.  I don’t think most people, on either side, are aware of the size of the wave about to break. Wayne to fish is human….to release Divine!

Response:

An SAS group was active for a brief time in South Yemen a few years ago (when there were *two* Yemens – now there is one).  These folks, like most shadow warriors are seldom seen, heard about only in rumor, and you surely wouldn’t want to wake up with them standing by your bed, if you are on the task list. This will likely be the sharpest edge of that terrible swift sword. Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter Collin: SAS = ? Special Air Service.  Roots from WWII.  It’s the Kippers’ answer to our SEALS, Special Forces, Rangers, etc.  Damn fine bunch even if they are Brits!  <g Dave According to the Washington Post, they’ve been training in the Pakistani mountains for the past five years and before that, with the Pathan warriors against the Soviets.  If they follow standard SAS ops, most will speak the local language – they’ll concentrate on recon, demolition, and ambush; vectoring in a larger force for the capture and covering it on the extraction.  Then they’ll disappear again and we’ll probably never hear about their contribution. If anyone wants to get an inkling of current SAS ops, check out Andy McNab’s "Bravo Two Zero" about the Gulf War.  An 8 man SAS patrol lead by McNab on a Scud busting mission, was dropped inadvertently in the middle of two Iraqi divisions.  Their mission compromised right from the start, they made a 110 mile escape and evasion to the Syrian border.  One made it, three died (two from exposure) and four were captured at the Euphrates River, the border with Syria.  On the way, it was estimated that they took out over 250 Iraqi soldiers. They were started in WWII by David Stirling, operating in the desert, doing recon and blowing up Rommel’s airplanes and ammunition dumps. The old TV series Rat Patrol was, as is usual for Hollywood, stolen from SAS service history.  The series does give some sense of what their WWII desert ops were like.  Hitler gave orders that any captured SAS soldiers were to be executed immediately as they were too dangerous to be left alive. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

The British SAS were used in the Iranian embassy siege in London a few years ago.  They went in from the roof and balcony and killed all, but one, of hostage takers.  The stroy goes that when they realised one of the hostage takers was hiding among the hostages outside the embassy, they went out to drag him inside to kill him.  Hostages pleaded for his life to be spared. He is serving life in jail. They took out IRA members in Gibraltar, leaving the bodies on the road. There was accusations of a "shoot-to-kill" policy. They turn up in many places where justice, law and order fails to take hold.  For example, an IRA man was found not guilty at the Old Bailey (Central Criminal Court, London) despite overwhelming evidence.  A few weeks later, he was shot dead, along with his mates, in a Northern Ireland churchyard, having just robbed a bank. The SAS are based at Hereford.  Its best to say "Sir" to anyone you speak to in Hereford. Bobby Bewl —

I haven’t seen it mentioned on CNN but the Toronto Sun has reported a fire fight between a Taliban force and an SAS recon patrol. Apparently, they’ve been in country for nearly a week, looking for bin Laden. wish ‘em luck Peter Visit The Streamer Page at

http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

and if you think *they’re* tough, wait ’til they get a whiff of the 24th foot…the south wales borderers.

Any relation to the 24th Yorkshire Foot and Mouth? Bobby

Response:

has long been the unwritten rule that one does NOT write about one’s life in the Regiment

Then this article, in yesterday’s Sunday Times, will not have gone down very well: www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/09/23/stiusausa02023.html "Tom Carew, an SAS soldier who helped turn Afghanistan’s fighters into an effective modern guerrilla force, on the daunting task facing allied troops in the air or on the ground.  My life with the mujaheddin." — Phil Jones

Response:

They were started in WWII by David Stirling, operating in the desert, doing recon and blowing up Rommel’s airplanes and ammunition dumps. I was in high school during WW II, but I remember reading about British "Commandos," which I vaguely recall was a word taken from a Dutch word "commando" used during the Boer War. Was "Commandos " another name for the SAS? vince norris

In WWII, the Commandos were Royal Marines whereas the SAS were drawn mostly from the army and RAF.  The Commandos specialized in amphibious raids while the SAS, as the name suggests, used airborne and overland approaches. There is a Royal Marine version of the SAS called the SBS (Special Boat Squadron) that is even more clandestine than the SAS (and if you ask a Marine – tougher.)  Just to confuse matters, the SAS has a Boat Troop that operates similarly to the SBS while the SBS also operates from naval helicopters.  Both the SAS and the SBS originated in WWII. http://business.thisisnorthscotland.co.uk/Nsco/a/r/m/armedforces/mari… http://www.britains-smallwars.com/main/SBS.htm Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

If there is a reasonably accurate account of the SAS in book form or official history, I woiuld like to add a copy to our Museum’s library.  We currently have a little material from W.W.II North African campaigns in the collection including some Desert Rats material.  Our collection includes significant material from England and Commonwealth counries from both World Wars and the Cold War.  We hold the largest ANZAC collection in the US and need to expand input from the British. Wayne to fish is human….to release Divine!!

Response:

They were started in WWII by David Stirling, operating in the desert, doing recon and blowing up Rommel’s airplanes and ammunition dumps.

I was in high school during WW II, but I remember reading about British "Commandos," which I vaguely recall was a word taken from a Dutch word "commando" used during the Boer War. Was "Commandos " another name for the SAS? vince norris

Response:

Thanks for getting back to us.  BTW, there are a number of regiment histories out there – preferences? Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Thanks for getting back to us.  BTW, there are a number of regiment histories out there – preferences?

One that was semi-officially sanctioned by the Regiment several years ago was "Who Dares Wins" by Tony Geraghty.  It is pretty factual, although obviously just a selection of stuff that can be made public.  Of interest is the fact that Tony Geraghty, an ex-Territorial (Reserve) paratrooper and journalist wrote a book about Northern Ireland only a couple of years ago and got himself arrested for spilling a few too many beans.  His earlier book mentioned above, is pretty accurate up to the Gulf War. There are numerous others, but most are either glamourizing tales of bravado written with an eye to the dollars, or semi-political works that try to make the authors’ pet point. The more accurate books are restricted circulation ones within the SAS Association or Special Forces Club library. There is one by Ken Connor, a long-time member of the Regiment, called "Ghost" I think from memory – it’s not too bad, but he does push his own barrow a fair bit, and has a slightly jaundiced view of things.  Some say he was in there too long.  I had just under 6 years in, and I saw enough to make me appreciate all the good things in life, and also to recognize what’s REALLY important in life as opposed to what society and peer- pressure try to tell us is important.  That’s why I enjoy fly-fishing! (Nifty, cunning return to topic there – heheh — NightStalker Email addy is nightstalker87 at hot(you know).com

Response:

British special forces (Special Air Service) – originated during WW II as a raiding force to fight Rommel’s forces in Africa, and obviously it stuck together.  The man who started it (Stirling) was knighted about 10 years ago I believe.

Just for the record, he was knighted back in the 1980s, and he died in 1991, just a few months before the Regiment’s jubilee (50th) birthday celebrations, which I attended and was marked by a touch of sadness that the founder had not quite made it. — NightStalker Email addy is nightstalker87 at hot(you know).com

Response:

I’m aware that McNab’s book hasn’t received the best of reviews from his former associates, though to the best of my knowledge, the 250 number came from other sources, not McNab.  Having had a former SAS Flt. Lt. as a training officer, I know about their reticence regarding any sort of publicity.  So I wonder whether the regiment’s dislike of the book comes from perceived inaccuracies in the story or the fact that McNab has profited from matters that should not have been made public.

Both.  The inaccuracies are real and grossly exaggerated.  It’s interesting that no mention of these huge body counts was made in the video-taped debriefings of both ‘McNab’ or ‘Ryan’.  And the other reason for the dislike of the books is that has long been the unwritten rule that one does NOT write about one’s life in the Regiment.  It’s for this reason that the two writers mentioned are now persona non grata in the Regiment and its Association.  Mind you – I’m sure they’re crying all the way to the bank…. (Cultural information note to the U.S. contingent in the ROFFian Universe.)  Over the past few decades the British and especially the Canadians have developed the bad habit of viciously tearing down their heros as soon as they’ve elevated them.  While it’s always wise to view claims to heroism with a clear eye, the counter-claims from these sources should be viewed, at the very least, the same way.

Just to balance the accounts a bit – let me just say that several ex- members of the Regiment HAVE written books that are held in much higher esteem than the ‘McNab’ and ‘Ryan’ books, but these are (a) factual, (b) usually limited distribution through the Association, and (c) not glorifying or exaggerating any deeds or misdeeds. Knocking down heroes is a peculiar sport, but in the opinion of most members and ex-members of the Regiment, neither ‘McNab’ or ‘Ryan’ were heroes – they just did a bloody good E + E (escape and evasion) effort, then tried to cash in on this stuffed up patrol and make ‘heroes’ out of themselves. — NightStalker Email addy is nightstalker87 at hot(you know).com

Response:

As a (shhh!) ex-member of the said regiment, back in the 60’s, allow me, as a long-time lurker here, to say a couple of words.  Andy ‘McNab’’s book is hugely exaggerated, especially about the number of Iraquis they allegedly ‘took out’ on the patrol which was a total stuff-up from day one.  There is another book about the same patrol, called "The One That Got Away" by Chris ‘Ryan’ (all pseudonyms) that is even more exaggerated and self-grandising. Now I’ll just fade silently back into "lurker-dom"

I’m aware that McNab’s book hasn’t received the best of reviews from his former associates, though to the best of my knowledge, the 250 number came from other sources, not McNab.  Having had a former SAS Flt. Lt. as a training officer, I know about their reticence regarding any sort of publicity.  So I wonder whether the regiment’s dislike of the book comes from perceived inaccuracies in the story or the fact that McNab has profited from matters that should not have been made public. (Cultural information note to the U.S. contingent in the ROFFian Universe.)  Over the past few decades the British and especially the Canadians have developed the bad habit of viciously tearing down their heros as soon as they’ve elevated them.  While it’s always wise to view claims to heroism with a clear eye, the counter-claims from these sources should be viewed, at the very least, the same way. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

SAS = ?

British special forces (Special Air Service) – originated during WW II as a raiding force to fight Rommel’s forces in Africa, and obviously it stuck together.  The man who started it (Stirling) was knighted about 10 years ago I believe. By the way, at one point Stirling was a POW in Colditz Castle, which was the inspiration for the computer game that "started it all" (yes, a shooter game that preceded Doom) – Castle Wolfenstein.  (There was also a board game called "Escape From Colditz".)  A later version of the computer game was "Spear of Destiny", where a commando was sent in to retrieve the spear that pierced the side of Christ, which was supposedly being kept by Himmler in the belief that Nazi armies would be invincible while it was in their possession (in keeping with his occult leanings.)  "Return to Castle Wolfenstein" is due out this fall, for more Nazi-killing goodness.  Boy is this OT.

Response:

An SAS group was active for a brief time in South Yemen a few years ago (when there were *two* Yemens – now there is one).  These folks, like most shadow warriors are seldom seen, heard about only in rumor, and you surely wouldn’t want to wake up with them standing by your bed, if you are on the task list. This will likely be the sharpest edge of that terrible swift sword. Tom

I was involved in that little lot.  It was in the Radfan mountains in the mid-60s, (1966 to be exact) the mountain range between what was then South Yemen and the Protectorate of Aden, as the Brits were withdrawing from Aden, we were basically covering their collective backsides.  The terrain there was like the flipside of the moon, about 50degrees Celsius by day, and sub-zero at night, with rocks underfoot that could cut through a pair of tough desert boots in no time. Special Air Service.  Roots from WWII.  It’s the Kippers’ answer to our SEALS, Special Forces, Rangers, etc.  Damn fine bunch even if they are Brits!  <g Dave

One small difference of opinion if I may – the SEALs were the USA’s answer to the SAS, not the other way around  The whole idea of Special FOrces, where small teams of highly-trained individuals could wreak more havoc than a company of grunts, originated in the fertile minds of David Stirling, his brother Bill Stirling, Paddy Maine, Jock Lewis, and a few others in 1942. According to the Washington Post, they’ve been training in the Pakistani mountains for the past five years and before that, with the Pathan warriors against the Soviets.  If they follow standard SAS ops, most will speak the local language – they’ll concentrate on recon, demolition, and ambush; vectoring in a larger force for the capture and covering it on the extraction.  Then they’ll disappear again and we’ll probably never hear about their contribution.

22SAS has had a very long involvement in the middle east, and particularly in desert terrain, including Aden as above, Oman (southern area called Dhofar) etc etc, and the regiment was actually started in the northern deserts of Africa in 1942.  They are long-time masters of ‘low- intensity’ campaigns, fighting guerilla tactics and winning hearts and minds as well as using all sorts of means to stay undetected deep behind enemy lines and across borders.  They are primarily a recon and special ops outfit rather than front-line engagement troops. If anyone wants to get an inkling of current SAS ops, check out Andy McNab’s "Bravo Two Zero" about the Gulf War.  An 8 man SAS patrol lead by McNab on a Scud busting mission, was dropped inadvertently in the middle of two Iraqi divisions.  Their mission compromised right from the start, they made a 110 mile escape and evasion to the Syrian border.  One made it, three died (two from exposure) and four were captured at the Euphrates River, the border with Syria.  On the way, it was estimated that they took out over 250 Iraqi soldiers. They were started in WWII by David Stirling, operating in the desert, doing recon and blowing up Rommel’s airplanes and ammunition dumps. The old TV series Rat Patrol was, as is usual for Hollywood, stolen from SAS service history.  The series does give some sense of what

As a (shhh!) ex-member of the said regiment, back in the 60’s, allow me, as a long-time lurker here, to say a couple of words.  Andy ‘McNab’’s book is hugely exaggerated, especially about the number of Iraquis they allegedly ‘took out’ on the patrol which was a total stuff-up from day one.  There is another book about the same patrol, called "The One That Got Away" by Chris ‘Ryan’ (all pseudonyms) that is even more exaggerated and self-grandising. Now I’ll just fade silently back into "lurker-dom" — NightStalker Email addy is nightstalker87 at hot(you know).com

Response:

Ditto Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – having read down to bobby’s post…..I’m impressed… john

Response:

having read down to bobby’s post…..I’m impressed… john

Response:

  The series does give some sense of what their WWII desert ops were like.  Hitler gave orders that any captured SAS soldiers were to be executed immediately as they were too dangerous to be left alive. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

        up the empire, peetah!         thanks to the brits from         their friend in the old north state         wayno         and if you think *they’re* tough, wait ’til they get a whiff of the 24th foot…the south wales borderers.

Response:

Peter Collin: SAS = ? Special Air Service.  Roots from WWII.  It’s the Kippers’ answer to our SEALS, Special Forces, Rangers, etc.  Damn fine bunch even if they are Brits!  <g Dave

According to the Washington Post, they’ve been training in the Pakistani mountains for the past five years and before that, with the Pathan warriors against the Soviets.  If they follow standard SAS ops, most will speak the local language – they’ll concentrate on recon, demolition, and ambush; vectoring in a larger force for the capture and covering it on the extraction.  Then they’ll disappear again and we’ll probably never hear about their contribution. If anyone wants to get an inkling of current SAS ops, check out Andy McNab’s "Bravo Two Zero" about the Gulf War.  An 8 man SAS patrol lead by McNab on a Scud busting mission, was dropped inadvertently in the middle of two Iraqi divisions.  Their mission compromised right from the start, they made a 110 mile escape and evasion to the Syrian border.  One made it, three died (two from exposure) and four were captured at the Euphrates River, the border with Syria.  On the way, it was estimated that they took out over 250 Iraqi soldiers. They were started in WWII by David Stirling, operating in the desert, doing recon and blowing up Rommel’s airplanes and ammunition dumps. The old TV series Rat Patrol was, as is usual for Hollywood, stolen from SAS service history.  The series does give some sense of what their WWII desert ops were like.  Hitler gave orders that any captured SAS soldiers were to be executed immediately as they were too dangerous to be left alive. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

SAS = ?

Special Air Service. — Gary (Email address is munged with x’s)

Response:

Peter Collin: SAS = ?

Special Air Service.  Roots from WWII.  It’s the Kippers’ answer to our SEALS, Special Forces, Rangers, etc.  Damn fine bunch even if they are Brits!  <g Dave

Response:

I haven’t seen it mentioned on CNN but the Toronto Sun has reported a fire fight between a Taliban force and an SAS recon patrol. Apparently, they’ve been in country for nearly a week, looking for bin Laden. wish ‘em luck Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Peter Charles: I haven’t seen it mentioned on CNN but the Toronto Sun has reported a fire fight between a Taliban force and an SAS recon patrol. Apparently, they’ve been in country for nearly a week, looking for bin Laden. wish ‘em luck

Damn straight, Peter!  Hope they get him.  Betcha you’re poppin’ some buttons! <g Dave

Response:

SAS = ?

Response:

aka "m-14" …special forces for Britain i believe… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – SAS = ?

Response:

Question:

"A-Sad-Eye" wrote… Walt…how much would it take to open up a fly shop?….NC is the first place I have ever been that made me think twice about retiring in South America…

Did I read that right?? Norht Carolina = South America? That explains why I can’t understand anyone when I go through a drive-up window. <g John, it sounds like you’re in for a long month. –Steve

Response:

"A-Sad-Eye" wrote… NC is the first place I have ever been that made me think twice about retiring in South America… Did I read that right??

No. Try again and this time parse it like John already intends to retire near his wife’s home in South America. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Thanks for the analysis re these hazards to graphite rods.  Makes sense.  However, most non-purist ffers are not going to stop fishing nymphs, which have to be weighted by some method, whether beadheads, lead wrap, or split shot. To the extent possible we have to avoid banging our rod tip when casting, by refining or modifying our casting technique. Casting with a more open loop works for me. PatK – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hooks are bad enough on graphite tips but bead heads and lead weighted nymphs are worse.  As many of the modern gentry use space age gadgets to tie their flies with, they snap more and more graphite tips because the bead head flies smack at high velocity against the graphite rod tips nicking them.  Oh, they may not snap right away, or next week or the next day but they  will snap soon enough. Nicking graphite is exactly like scratching a pane of glass. Apply the pressure at just the right spot and the glass follows the scratch longitude.  The cross section loads on a tip that is only 3/32 more or less in diameter has Pound Per Inch loads on the cross section that can exceed 185,000 – 250,000 psi at any given time.  Put one imperfection into that circumference and you will have a fiber explosion that can sound like a small bolt of lightening when she pops!  Anyone that sends a graphite tip back to a manufacturer  that has snapped but who has fished Bead Heads with it, are not being fair to the companies that make them.  Frankly, I don’t think any Graphite Fly Rod Company today realizes this fact regarding why they are getting so many fly rods back with broken tips. Frankly, fly fishing to me means "All’s Fair With Fur or Feather," just as in upland hunting over a nice brace of Llewellyn Setters.  But it isn’t fair when fly fishermen are beating perfectly made fly rod tips with Brass, Metal or Lead Bead Heads other than normal hook hazards which is bad enough as it is, breaking them and then claiming foul. The extra glitter most get with bead heads is the same as fishing with pistol petes and calling it fly fishing, I suppose.  A little mix of the spinning world into fly fishing is the rogue these days and still claiming its fly fishing in the purist sense of the word. Well, it may be fly fishing but it isn’t pure to the traditions of old. It is compromises in order to take advantage using ingenious methods. The array of glittering materials have seen a huge explosion such as crystal hair, etc.  But Flashabou or Crystal Hair doesn’t smash against the rod tips like bird shot like items do, damaging the fly rods to certain ruin, sooner or later. I think it is only fair that we all consider being absolutely fair with fly rod companies turning out excellent products.  "Well, I slammed the car door on it and it broke," is the complaint and if the fly rod company doesn’t replace it for free . . . oh my! This is why I never use bead head flies and/or nymphs.  At least, not yet I haven’t.  It just doesn’t hold the magic for me as it does for others.  I guess it all depends upon which generation you learned to fly fish in. I have no regrets. Mr. G. http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Hooks are bad enough on graphite tips but bead heads and lead weighted nymphs are worse.  As many of the modern gentry use space age gadgets to tie their flies with, they snap more and more graphite tips because the bead head flies smack at high velocity against the graphite rod tips nicking them.  Oh, they may not snap right away, or next week or the next day but they  will snap soon enough. Nicking graphite is exactly like scratching a pane of glass.  Apply the pressure at just the right spot and the glass follows the scratch longitude.  The cross section loads on a tip that is only 3/32 more or less in diameter has Pound Per Inch loads on the cross section that can exceed 185,000 – 250,000 psi at any given time.  Put one imperfection into that circumference and you will have a fiber explosion that can sound like a small bolt of lightening when she pops!  Anyone that sends a graphite tip back to a manufacturer  that has snapped but who has fished Bead Heads with it, are not being fair to the companies that make them.  Frankly, I don’t think any Graphite Fly Rod Company today realizes this fact regarding why they are getting so many fly rods back with broken tips. Frankly, fly fishing to me means "All’s Fair With Fur or Feather," just as in upland hunting over a nice brace of Llewellyn Setters.  But it isn’t fair when fly fishermen are beating perfectly made fly rod tips with Brass, Metal or Lead Bead Heads other than normal hook hazards which is bad enough as it is, breaking them and then claiming foul. The extra glitter most get with bead heads is the same as fishing with pistol petes and calling it fly fishing, I suppose.  A little mix of the spinning world into fly fishing is the rogue these days and still claiming its fly fishing in the purist sense of the word. Well, it may be fly fishing but it isn’t pure to the traditions of old. It is compromises in order to take advantage using ingenious methods. The array of glittering materials have seen a huge explosion such as crystal hair, etc.  But Flashabou or Crystal Hair doesn’t smash against the rod tips like bird shot like items do, damaging the fly rods to certain ruin, sooner or later. I think it is only fair that we all consider being absolutely fair with fly rod companies turning out excellent products.  "Well, I slammed the car door on it and it broke," is the complaint and if the fly rod company doesn’t replace it for free . . . oh my!   This is why I never use bead head flies and/or nymphs.  At least, not yet I haven’t.  It just doesn’t hold the magic for me as it does for others.  I guess it all depends upon which generation you learned to fly fish in. I have no regrets. Mr. G. http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

Response:

The extra glitter most get with bead heads is the same as fishing with pistol petes and calling it fly fishing, I suppose.

It’s quite easy to get a little flash with other materials, as you pointed out.  I would guess that beadheads seem to catch more fish simply because it’s like a built in split shot – most people catch more fish simply because the nymph ends up deeper. Regards, Jeff

Response:

The extra glitter most get with bead heads is the same as fishing with pistol petes and calling it fly fishing, I suppose. It’s quite easy to get a little flash with other materials, as you pointed out.  I would guess that beadheads seem to catch more fish simply because it’s like a built in split shot – most people catch more fish simply because the nymph ends up deeper. Regards, Jeff

______  A spherical bead head always has a flash spot or bright spot on it.  A glint that attracts whenever it gets into sunlight.  Besides what you point out about getting nymphs down to xink to the bottom, there are other ways besides beads.   — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

Response:

Man I’ve got so much to say…… Opie…you’re good and I’m sorry to hear about Mom.  Wish her the best. I know how you care for her and have you seen Walt…how much would it take to open up a fly shop?….NC is the first place I have ever been that made me think twice about retiring in South America. But I almost blew it because Wayno…..I  could have used you in Chicago because the weather was rainy and it got real drunk out before I went into the Orvis shop and thought, I wish Wayne was here because… Wayne, even tho’ I hate brand name labels….Orvis does make some good shit and I’d buy one of everything if I could afford it, but I couldn’t and I didn’t and I really wish – Wofgang would have been there to drive me back to the hotel because I got really lost and at times found myself in the deepest darkest alleys but now I’m home and the wife left  to visit her folks for a month and although I have scoured this town , nowhere is to be found, Low Down Brown and I wish… Ken were here to recommend a substitute, because… Charlie, I’ve only my beer and I’m down to stems and seeds again, and I’m   – Daytripper just about every damn day until she gets back and although I want to head south I might not make it because the horror and agony of knowing that countless gazzillions of insects died because they couldn’t xink to the bottom ….. ……well…..never mind.  But if there is something to get a nymph…or wooly down to the bottom  in some of the places I fish…..bring a camera ’cause I will xuck your dick……. …a month she is going to be gone gentlemen.  A month. This could get ugly…… john – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The extra glitter most get with bead heads is the same as fishing with pistol petes and calling it fly fishing, I suppose. It’s quite easy to get a little flash with other materials, as you pointed out.  I would guess that beadheads seem to catch more fish simply because it’s like a built in split shot – most people catch more fish simply because the nymph ends up deeper. Regards, Jeff ______  A spherical bead head always has a flash spot or bright spot on it.  A glint that attracts whenever it gets into sunlight.  Besides what you point out about getting nymphs down to xink to the bottom, there are other ways besides beads. — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

Response:

Man I’ve got so much to say…… Wayno…..I  could have used you in Chicago because the weather was rainy and it got real drunk out before I went into the Orvis shop and thought, I wish Wayne was here because…

        well, john, i doubt i will be able to make the connection, but here’s a little help to put in your pocket when things get tough; just follow the bouncing ball:         then take me disappearin through the smoke rings of my mind,         down the foggy ruins of time, far past the frozen leaves,         the haunted, frightened trees, out to the windy beach,         far from the twisted reach of crazy sorrow.         yes, to dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free,         silhouetted by the sea, circled by the circus sands,             with all memory and fate driven deep beneath the waves,         let me forget about today until tomorrow.                 b. dylan  (but you knew that) your friend in the old north state wayno

Response:

…I don’t know Mr. G., but in my book an unconditional warranty on a rod is just that. ..and if we all want to be purists, wouldn’t we be using bamboo and braided hair lines?     I think you might be right though when you suggest that a definition of fly fishing might depend upon which generation you learned to fish in. Or, more than it being something to do with different generations, it could be that how you are introduced to fly fishing plays a larger part in shaping definitions. After all,the generation gap is a lot more narrow than we sometimes can recognize (lord knows, my once incredibly dense father keeps getting smarter and smarter the older I get).   In my case, no one I ever grew up with threw a fly; a casting book by Joan Wulff was my introduction. So I’ve never really had anyone tell me that "x" is fly fishing and "y" is not. My feeling is that if it’s an artificial lure and If I can cast it, then the fish and the trees should best beware.     …thanks for the great post, you got me thinking about my Pops.. and on fathers day at that. Later, Patrick

Response:

I like that! — Opie  –Planning for the Past– – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …I don’t know Mr. G., but in my book an unconditional warranty on a rod is just that. ..and if we all want to be purists, wouldn’t we be using bamboo and braided hair lines?     I think you might be right though when you suggest that a definition of fly fishing might depend upon which generation you learned to fish in. Or, more than it being something to do with different generations, it could be that how you are introduced to fly fishing plays a larger part in shaping definitions. After all,the generation gap is a lot more narrow than we sometimes can recognize (lord knows, my once incredibly dense father keeps getting smarter and smarter the older I get).   In my case, no one I ever grew up with threw a fly; a casting book by Joan Wulff was my introduction. So I’ve never really had anyone tell me that "x" is fly fishing and "y" is not. My feeling is that if it’s an artificial lure and If I can cast it, then the fish and the trees should best beware.     …thanks for the great post, you got me thinking about my Pops.. and on fathers day at that. Later, Patrick

Response:

…I don’t know Mr. G., but in my book an unconditional warranty on a rod is just that. ..and if we all want to be purists, wouldn’t we be using bamboo and braided hair lines?

purist because the term purist has not been defined except in the loosest sense.  I said, I was glad I learned to fly fish in my generation.  That in itself is definition enough.  I see you confirm that below.  Thank you for your thoughts and input.  There is a big difference between fly fishing and jig fishing with plastic worm these days.     I think you might be right though when you suggest that a definition of fly fishing might depend upon which generation you learned to fish in. Or, more than it being something to do with different generations, it could be that how you are introduced to fly fishing plays a larger part in shaping definitions. After all,the generation gap is a lot more narrow than we sometimes can recognize (lord knows, my once incredibly dense father keeps getting smarter and smarter the older I get).   In my case, no one I ever grew up with threw a fly; a casting book by Joan Wulff was my introduction. So I’ve never really had anyone tell me that "x" is fly fishing and "y" is not. My feeling is that if it’s an artificial lure and If I can cast it, then the fish and the trees should best beware.     …thanks for the great post, you got me thinking about my Pops.. and on fathers day at that. Later, Patrick

– Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

Response:

If this is just the beginnings of *could get bad,* I fear the future! — Opie  –Planning for the Past–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Man I’ve got so much to say…… Opie…you’re good and I’m sorry to hear about Mom.  Wish her the best. I know how you care for her and have you seen Walt…how much would it take to open up a fly shop?….NC is the first place I have ever been that made me think twice about retiring in South America. But I almost blew it because Wayno…..I  could have used you in Chicago because the weather was rainy and it got real drunk out before I went into the Orvis shop and thought, I wish Wayne was here because… Wayne, even tho’ I hate brand name labels….Orvis does make some good shit and I’d buy one of everything if I could afford it, but I couldn’t and I didn’t and I really wish – Wofgang would have been there to drive me back to the hotel because I got really lost and at times found myself in the deepest darkest alleys but now I’m home and the wife left  to visit her folks for a month and although I have scoured this town , nowhere is to be found, Low Down Brown and I wish… Ken were here to recommend a substitute, because… Charlie, I’ve only my beer and I’m down to stems and seeds again, and I’m   – Daytripper just about every damn day until she gets back and although I want to head south I might not make it because the horror and agony of knowing that countless gazzillions of insects died because they couldn’t xink to the bottom ….. ……well…..never mind.  But if there is something to get a nymph…or wooly down to the bottom  in some of the places I fish…..bring a camera ’cause I will xuck your dick……. …a month she is going to be gone gentlemen.  A month. This could get ugly…… john The extra glitter most get with bead heads is the same as fishing with pistol petes and calling it fly fishing, I suppose. It’s quite easy to get a little flash with other materials, as you pointed out.  I would guess that beadheads seem to catch more fish simply because it’s like a built in split shot – most people catch more fish simply because the nymph ends up deeper. Regards, Jeff ______  A spherical bead head always has a flash spot or bright spot on it.  A glint that attracts whenever it gets into sunlight.  Besides what you point out about getting nymphs down to xink to the bottom, there are other ways besides beads. — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

Response:

Question:

This subject has probably been done here before, but I’ll post this anyway. I do about 90% of my fishing in the surf or on jetties for Bluefish, Striped Bass and Weakfish.  The balance is for warmwater species, and when I’m feeling particularly masochistic, I might try for some trout which usually only laugh at me. Anyway, the question is: When is a fly a fly?   Does it have to represent or suggest some stage of an insect’s life?  I’d guess most of you would call the things I throw "Streamers"  or for the English, "Lures", but they are called "Flies" by everyone I know who uses them, even though some of them can be (and have been) cast by ultralight or even light action spinning rods. Here’s some more things to chew on:  What about materials?  Do they have to be natural or will synthetic be acceptable? How about epoxy, a material I love to use because it stands up to big teeth. So far as I am concerned, as long as the offering is too light to be cast by conventional or spinning rods that can reasonably be expected to subdue the fish you’re looking for but must be cast by line weight instead of lure weight, then it’s a fly, even if it is 14" long… — Tight Lines and Fair Winds! Ed

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This subject has probably been done here before, but I’ll post this anyway. I do about 90% of my fishing in the surf or on jetties for Bluefish, Striped Bass and Weakfish.  The balance is for warmwater species, and when I’m feeling particularly masochistic, I might try for some trout which usually only laugh at me. Anyway, the question is: When is a fly a fly?   Does it have to represent or suggest some stage of an insect’s life?  I’d guess most of you would call the things I throw "Streamers"  or for the English, "Lures", but they are called "Flies" by everyone I know who uses them, even though some of them can be (and have been) cast by ultralight or even light action spinning rods. Here’s some more things to chew on:  What about materials?  Do they have to be natural or will synthetic be acceptable? How about epoxy, a material I love to use because it stands up to big teeth. So far as I am concerned, as long as the offering is too light to be cast by conventional or spinning rods that can reasonably be expected to subdue the fish you’re looking for but must be cast by line weight instead of lure weight, then it’s a fly, even if it is 14" long… — Tight Lines and Fair Winds! Ed

Ed, My understanding of the definition of a fly is a "lure" made from fur and feather, of couse synthetic materials are also allowed in conjunction with fur and feather. Darin

Response:

Question:

Jess, I support catch and release of wild trout, (deleted) The phrase "Catch and Release of Wild Trout" is an oxymoron.

<snip Maybe "Catch and Release Non-Hatchery Reared Fish" wouldn’t fit on the license plate frame. You know very well what Ernie meant. I win lots of debates with my wife by pretending not to understand what she is talking about when she makes a good point, but I am an amateur compared to you. Jeff Runner

Response:

William Loehman wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Black and white arguments are almost always untrue or come down to a strict definition of a word and don’t apply to the real world. Trout can be caught a number of times and still have what is to me , the essence of their wildness: they fear people.  It takes constant daily contact with people and numerous hookups  to over-ride this instinct.  The Juan, The Green & The Pan are the prime samples of this. The fish in these rivers are attracted to wading anglers because of the food they kick up rather than fearing them. This was a necessary adaptation for them in order to survive in the presence of the hoards of fishermen, but make for a very unnatural existance. They are no longer "trout" but trained fish.

I agree with all of this.  However, I still enjoy fishing the San Juan when I take my annual trip.  It may be that pound for pound a truly wild fish would give a better fight than one that’s grown up in the San Juan – but I find that many of the fights I’ve had have been plenty exciting.  I admit that aesthetically I value catching truly wild fish, but I have very little opportunity to do so, and since I’m not a 40 fish a day guy, even on the San Juan, I haven’t become sated by the tailwater-nymphing experience like some have. Perhaps someday I will.  Even so, I still think I’ll support the existence of these kinds of fisheries to accommodate all of the fishers who enjoy it.  I accept the fact that in order to get to ‘purer’ fishing, I’ll have to go to the less accessible places or conform to far more restrictive regulations. —                                                             -dnc- to reply, change ‘dnc’ to ‘dcollins’ in email address

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Not to beat a dead horse, but… Moe Skeeter wrote fiddleaway wrote It is not an oxymoron the very first time a wild trout is caught (in its life).  You have a point that repeated catchings may cause trout to behave less ‘wildly’ – though your anecdote is not proof, I will admit that your assertion stands to reason. I do not understand how you can say that…100 is bigger than 1, but 1 is just as valid a number. You seemed to understand as I explained further (see below), but to reiterate; if I take (what seems to be) your definition of wild< – a trout that has had no interaction with humans – then the trout is wild until it is caught the first time (well, I suppose you could say that the trout is wild until it is hooked.  

- forgive guys but the idea that any animal that has interacted with people is ‘no longer wild’ is absurd. As usual what we’ve got is some people getting confused with the basics  of the English Language. The word ‘wild’ can have a number of meanings depending on the context of the statement. So to say a land is wild or even ‘wilderness’ (two different words with different meanings) indicating it is uneffected by the action of man – or more acurately ‘in it’s natutal state’ has zip to do with weather a fish is wild. A couple of years ago my wife and I were on a early morning hike before spending a few hours on our favourite lake. We saw a deer and the deer saw us. Both parties stopped to contemplate each other, the deer not sure what we were up to. My wife and I whispered to each other and we could see the deer’s big ears swivel to pick up our speech. That’s interaction! Did it tame the deer? Does a fish cease to be wild when it’s been hooked and lost? Does it cease to be wild because it has seen a person and fled or conversely has not fled? (as often happens with wild salmon in these parts – you practicaly have to step on them before they retreat downstream.) What we’ve got here is someone trying to use ‘wild’ as a sort of weasel word to continue to condemn c&r. I can’t see how many times a fish is released effects it’s wildness. As long as they continue to have a flight reaction to the hook and pull of the line they are untamed. Until they swim right to me and roll over to let me stroke their bellies they are wild. Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "take_this_out" for email reply

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A couple of years ago my wife and I were on a early morning hike before spending a few hours on our favourite lake. We saw a deer and the deer saw us. Both parties stopped to contemplate each other, the deer not sure what we were up to. My wife and I whispered to each other and we could see the deer’s big ears swivel to pick up our speech. That’s interaction! Did it tame the deer? Does a fish cease to be wild when it’s been hooked and lost? Does it cease to be wild because it has seen a person and fled or conversely has not fled? (as often happens with wild salmon in these parts – you practicaly have to step on them before they retreat downstream.) What we’ve got here is someone trying to use ‘wild’ as a sort of weasel word to continue to condemn c&r. I can’t see how many times a fish is released effects it’s wildness. As long as they continue to have a flight reaction to the hook and pull of the line they are untamed. Until they swim right to me and roll over to let me stroke their bellies they are wild.

I agree with most of this but the trout in some of our heavilly fished tailwaters do just about what you suggest.  They are attracted to rather than disturbed by wading anglers. They will actually set up feeding stations just downstream of the angler. This IS tamed & trained. Willi

Response:

[some deleted] forgive guys but the idea that any animal that has interacted with people is ‘no longer wild’ is absurd.

You seem to acknowledge ‘degrees’ of wildness…let’s start there. Again, I will quote the current High Priest of Flyfishing Philosphy himself, John Gierach (That is what he is called on the back cover of "Another Lousy Day In Paradise").   Where, when fishing in a spot that had never been fished by anyone, he referred to the fish as "perfectly" wild.  His definition or "Perfectly" Wild was fish that had not been fished for by man. We are *all* on the same page on this score, oui ? I am not saying that a fish C&R-ed is ‘no longer wild’.  I am saying that it is ‘less wild’.  Further, the continued practice of C&R on that same fish will remove the ‘wild’ from it completely and this is clearly evidenced in those heavily fished places where the so called ‘wild’ trout bear no resemblence to the real McCoy. I stick by my guns. "C&R WILD TROUT" *is* an oxymoron. Every time you release it it becomes less and less wild until it is no longer wild.  If you don’t agree with this..well, than you must at least agree that it is (at the very least) *counterproductive* if the goal of C&R’ing fish is to preserve ‘Wild Trout’, which is what people (ostensibly) believe they are doing when they buy the license plate frame for their Orvis Jeep and release 7 pound "park trout" back into the upper Frying Pan river. This is not simple conjecture Ralph. It is hard fact based on empirical observations. A couple of years ago my wife and I were on a early morning hike before spending a few hours on our favourite lake. We saw a deer and the deer saw us. Both parties stopped to contemplate each other, the deer not sure what we were up to. My wife and I whispered to each other and we could see the deer’s big ears swivel to pick up our speech. That’s interaction! Did it tame the

deer? Yes.  In fact you *really* surprise my by this comment.  That animal lose their fear of humans when exposed to them, for example in public campgrounds, and city dumps is a really bad thing and might be fatal for the animal.  If you would have thrown a rock at the deer and chased it with a stick, you would have done it a huge favor, IMO. Even if your wife thinks you’re an asshole for the act. Does a fish cease to be wild when it’s been hooked and lost? Does it cease to be wild because it has seen a person and fled or conversely has not fled? (as often happens with wild salmon in these parts – you practicaly have to step on them before they retreat downstream.)

Every time a fish encounters man and is not killed it becomes less and less wild.  This is pretty clear based on the definition of wild, and apparently, many people agree.   Including The Prophet. What we’ve got here is someone trying to use ‘wild’ as a sort of weasel

word to continue to condemn c&r. Pure C&R is self-condemning, it doesn’t need me. I can’t see how many times a fish is released effects it’s wildness.

*THIS* has been *CLEARLY* established. Like I said Ralphie.  You’ve got no heart.  No feeling for this subject at all.  Why not take up a sport that doesn’t involve the exploitation of Wild Animals, I’ll give you a good homebrew recipe ?  Whaddya say ?  You obviously need a break. As long as they continue to have a flight reaction to the hook and pull of the line they are untamed.

Bullshit. Do a little experiment Ralphie.   Tie up some milk-bone imitations on a 2/0 Sproat and sight cast to Ms. Wilson’s poodle. What happens when you hook the little beggar ? Oh…I forgot…you live in BC where the Poodles are Wild and the Men have huge plonkers. Until they swim right to me and roll over to let me stroke their bellies they are wild.

Like I said, the invitation to come fish the Frying Pan or the San Juan remains open big boy.  Mitch will guide us and I will be the photographer (I refuse to fish there…10 pound lipless park trout or not). I just hope I can capture the ‘essence’ of your disappointment on film when they roll over and let you stroke their bellies. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

Moe Skeeter wrote Ralph H wrote [some deleted] forgive guys but the idea that any animal that has interacted with people is ‘no longer wild’ is absurd. You seem to acknowledge ‘degrees’ of wildness…let’s start there. … John Gierach ….  His definition or "Perfectly" Wild was fish that had not been fished for by man. We are *all* on the same page on this score, oui ?

Everybody step close together and smile for this Kodak moment – I think we can all get behind this, so far. I am not saying that a fish C&R-ed is ‘no longer wild’.  I am saying that it is ‘less wild’.

So far, so good. Further, the continued practice of C&R on that same fish will remove the ‘wild’ from it completely and this is clearly evidenced in those heavily fished places where the so called ‘wild’ trout bear no resemblence to the real McCoy.

Oops! Hyperbole alert!  completely< and no resemblance to the real McCoy<.  Tim’s world view surfaces.  Fine.  We know your values.  Ours are different. (and better of course <g) I stick by my guns. "C&R WILD TROUT" *is* an oxymoron. Every time you release it it becomes less and less wild until it is no longer wild.

In the immortal words of Ronnie, "There you go again!"  It is at best now a very weak oxymoron since a really strong one (like guest host) requires words having strongly opposing values.  "Continued catch & release of a wild fish"…now that’s waxing a little more oxymoronic … but it doesn’t quite have that ring you want for a license plate slogan.  Keep trying though, playing with words is fun, just as long as you don’t take yourself so seriously that you use such games to support serious conclusions. Here’s a good example to get you started:  When you honor a fish by killing and eating it you are exhibiting a cruel kindness<. If you don’t agree with this..well, than you must at least agree that it is (at the very least) *counterproductive* if the goal of C&R’ing fish is to preserve ‘Wild Trout’, which is what people (ostensibly) believe they are doing when they buy the license plate frame for their Orvis Jeep and release 7 pound "park trout" back into the upper Frying Pan river. This is not simple conjecture Ralph. It is hard fact based on empirical observations.

What have you observed other than seeing people return their catch.  This is hardly evidence for the motivations for doing so.  Or have you carried out extensive, scholarly research on the subject?  (The use of the word ‘ostensibly’ makes me think the answer is no). No, it is not counterproductive.  Released fish spawn and their offspring are wild.  Not so for caught fish. I have never assumed that the singular goal of C&R is preserving wild trout.  Although, it does quite nicely in many situations.  For example, if I hike into a less accessible spot and catch trout that (a) have never been caught before or (b) are a tad less wild because they’ve been caught once, then releasing these trout still allows them to be fairly wild (as opposed to dead) and to continue to produce wild offspring.  So no, I do not feel compelled to agree with your imperative.  But keep working at it, my ears are open. Pure C&R is self-condemning, it doesn’t need me.

The fact that you are the only one on ROFF who seems to believe this belies the statement. Convince me otherwise.  (Boy I like that phrase…thanks) I can’t see how many times a fish is released effects it’s wildness. *THIS* has been *CLEARLY* established.

Point taken.  (again)   Like I said Ralphie.  You’ve got no heart.  No feeling for this subject at all.  Why not take up a sport that doesn’t involve the exploitation of Wild Animals, I’ll give you a good homebrew recipe ?  Whaddya say ?  You obviously need a break.

It’s obvious to me from your posts that you are a fairly bright guy, so when I see statements like this I can only think you must be suffering from overindulgence in your own homebrew.  (BTW – telling someone they have no heart, especially after they’ve indicated that they respect what you say, could be construed as a particularly heartless act) Ralph H. wrote As long as they continue to have a flight reaction to the hook and pull of the line they are untamed. Bullshit.

Sorry, I have you on record (see Kodak moment above) as saying that there are varying degrees of wildness, so your BS is BS (so what else is new?) Like I said, the invitation to come fish the Frying Pan or the San Juan remains open big boy.  Mitch will guide us and I will be the photographer (I refuse to fish there…10 pound lipless park trout or not).

I’ll probably be at the San Juan the 2nd or 3rd week of next October.  If you want, we can meet there and if more than 10% of the fish I catch have injured lips, I’ll give you a hundred bucks and you will give me a hundred bucks if less than 10% have injured lips.  (Exactly 10% will be a push). Plus the loser will submit an appropriately humble posting on ROFF. —                                                             -dnc- to reply, change ‘dnc’ to ‘dcollins’ in email address

Response:

I’ll probably be at the San Juan the 2nd or 3rd week of next October.  If you want, we can meet there and if more than 10% of the fish I catch have injured lips, I’ll give you a hundred bucks and you will give me a hundred bucks if less than 10% have injured lips.  (Exactly 10% will be a push). Plus the loser will submit an appropriately humble posting on ROFF.

I’ll take that bet. Willi

Response:

I don’t bet against friends, no matter what the outcome, we both lose. — TimW Halfordian Golfer – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll probably be at the San Juan the 2nd or 3rd week of next October.  If you want, we can meet there and if more than 10% of the fish I catch have injured lips, I’ll give you a hundred bucks and you will give me a hundred bucks if less than 10% have injured lips.  (Exactly 10% will be a push). Plus the loser will submit an appropriately humble posting on ROFF. I’ll take that bet.

Response:

Willi,         Don’t you think that this could be classified as being opportuinistic or at least a learned behavior?  If you could find somewhere where a repeated action produced something you were eager to experience(a certain hatch at a certain time at a certain place) that you would learn to be there?  tamed? maybe just taking advantage. jim

To me, a wild animal is tamed when it no longer displays its instinct fear of man.  When people teach animals behavior, they are trained.  We may disagree about definitions, but these "trout" display unnatural behavior. Willi

Response:

As is often the case, a singular action is not bad in and of itself.  It only becomes bad when done to excess (and then of course the term excess becomes the point of controversy).

I agree completely. Black and white arguments are almost always untrue or come down to a strict definition of a word and don’t apply to the real world. Trout can be caught a number of times and still have what is to me , the essence of their wildness: they fear people.  It takes constant daily contact with people and numerous hookups  to over-ride this instinct.  The Juan, The Green & The Pan are the prime samples of this. The fish in these rivers are attracted to wading anglers because of the food they kick up rather than fearing them. This was a necessary adaptation for them in order to survive in the presence of the hoards of fishermen, but make for a very unnatural existance. They are no longer "trout" but trained fish. Willi

Response:

.I take your point about fish that have been caught and released several times.  Take your pick: Would you rather catch 5 lb. trout that have been to school, or 10" hatchery fish?

Neither, one has been trained by man and the other one made by him. I like to fish for fish that at least approach being wild. Willi

Response:

Not to beat a dead horse, but… Moe Skeeter wrote fiddleaway wrote It is not an oxymoron the very first time a wild trout is caught (in its life).  You have a point that repeated catchings may cause trout to behave less ‘wildly’ – though your anecdote is not proof, I will admit that your assertion stands to reason. I do not understand how you can say that…100 is bigger than 1, but 1 is just as valid a number.

You seemed to understand as I explained further (see below), but to reiterate; if I take (what seems to be) your definition of wild< – a trout that has had no interaction with humans – then the trout is wild until it is caught the first time (well, I suppose you could say that the trout is wild until it is hooked.  So, even the act of landing the wild trout would be oxymoronic.  However, I think this sophistry is quickly becoming simply moronic).  Bottom line, the primary way you distinguish yourself from other flyfishers with regard to resource management is what you do with a wild trout after< it’s caught.  So, my point is, verbiage aside, catching a wild trout the first time is not oxymoronic.  Catching it a second time would be (given your definition of wild). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But, according to your definition, a wild trout can only be caught once .. whether it is released or eaten, it ceases to be a wild trout upon catching. so far so good… Now I’ll grant you that once a wild trout is caught, it’s fair to say that it is no longer wild so I guess its then fair to say that ‘release’ and ‘wild trout’ are oxymoronic.  But no less oxymoronic than saying, "Tonight I’m serving wild trout for dinner." I don’t rememember seeing "Tonight I am Serving Wild Trout For Dinner" License plate frames or as a slogan for our national fisheries management coalition…<g… (but…I like the sound of it and might have some printed up….HEY LICENSE FRAME DUDE !!! WHERE ARE YOU ???) It fits very neatly with the "Halfordian Golfer" theme.

I think its fair to attribute such a statement to you (especially since you like the sound of it).  And my point that such a statement is just as oxymoronic as "Catch and Release a Wild Trout" stands.  So if it’s oxymorons that lead to the decline of fisheries ( a strange notion…Caused by the mold?  -see below) you’re just as guilty as those who champion the release of wild trout. But, you’re shooting yourself in the foot and contradicting your first argument.   If the FIRST time is a freebie and it is still purely wild, it IS a wild trout whenn you kill and eat it.

No, you are contradicting your argument.  If it’s wild when you kill it, then its wild when you release it.  Ergo, no oxymoron.  The oxymoron exists for both or for neither. Now…eating Wild Trout…is that a bad thing ?  Of course not.   I mean…in colorado a valid management phrase could be… "EAT A WILD BROOKIE…SAVE A NATIVE CUTTHROAT".

As is often the case, a singular action is not bad in and of itself.  It only becomes bad when done to excess (and then of course the term excess becomes the point of controversy).  Catching and releasing a wild trout…is that a bad thing?  You< must say no, if I understand your SH method correctly (if a slot limit is used to implement it, for example). My point?  Neither your assertion of the goodness of a singularity nor your claim of oxymoronic practice distinguishes C&R from SH.  (With regard to wild fish…your definition of wild). As far as I know, Ernie was talking mainly about catching wild trout that meet your definition (never caught before).  Much the same attitude some guys have about virgins, I guess. Well, he *is* doing the same thing to them….<g

The picture this paints was worth the whole thread.  LMAO.  (Sorry Ernie – I’m sure you can counter with a clever rejoinder) Claiming that an oxymoron is somehow counter-productive to having real Wild Trout is the kind of statement one might expect from one having the fertile mind of a fruitcake Actually,  if you leave fruitcake lying around, molds will grow…unless it is rum soaked.  Someone said that’s how they knew Christmas was over….you mistake your fruitcake for your ghia pet.

At least you don’t have to worry about going bald. —                                                             -dnc- to reply, change ‘dnc’ to ‘dcollins’ in email address

Response:

[deleted] Now if want to look at a phrase that’s oxymoronic and invented by an oxymoron just think of ‘pure catch and release’

I must say that this attack on our use of the phrase Pure C&R for purposes of discussion around here to be really frustrating.  It is fairly obviously simply an attempt at accuracy. Also, I must point out that it was not me that originally coined it…although I did adopt it at as fairly obvious and positive contribution to the discussion.   It has served the discussion really well, IMO, it is just that Anesthesized Testicles himself (Jimbo) doesn’t like it…truth is I don’t know what Jimbo likes as the only thing he ever posts are bitches about me. Oh…BTW – I like your disclaimer ralph… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

 It has served the discussion really well, IMO, it is just that Anesthesized Testicles himself (Jimbo) doesn’t like it…truth is I don’t know what Jimbo likes as the only thing he ever posts are bitches

I suppose we can assume (ouch) he likes that! Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

Response:

Ernie Harrison wrote [snip] The best recipe for wild trout is to coat them with flour and corn meal and fry them over the camp fire.    

Don’t forget the butter! —                                                             -dnc- to reply, change ‘dnc’ to ‘dcollins’ in email address

Response:

Ernie Harrison wrote [snip] The best recipe for wild trout is to coat them with flour and corn meal and fry them over the camp fire. Don’t forget the butter!

C’mon SPRING ! — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

The slogan "Catch and Release Wild Trout"  *is* an oxymoron and really, really counter-productive to having real Wild Trout. Convince me otherwise.

It’s not an oxymoron. Let’s say you’re on a wilderness river.  You catch a native trout that’s never seen a fly or even a fisherman’s shadow.  It’s wild, right?  OK, we’re halfway there. Now you release it.         Steve Barnard I take your point about fish that have been caught and released several times.  Take your pick: Would you rather catch 5 lb. trout that have been to school, or 10" hatchery fish?

Response:

Yes.  Fried.  In butter. Fishie fishie in the brook, Daddy catch ‘em on a hook. Momma fry ‘em in a pan, Baby eat ‘em like a man. I know, today, "Daddy" and "Momma" and "man" are interchangable, but it’s an old bit of poetry. Prometheus, no doubt out of pity for shivvering humans stuck with eating raw fish, stole fire from the gods on Mt. Olympus and gave us earthlings this warm present.  Somebody invented the skillet, somebody the wheel. Now, we get in our buggies and roll out to the creek or the lake and bring home FOOD.  To cook. Perhaps those who consider themselves higher than this, beyond this, holier than this, belong not with humans, but with the gods–who felt no pity for humans.   Ethically, morally, rationally, philosophically, NATUR-ALLY, anti-fishers, anti-eaters,  seem to lack understanding of what life’s all about for us poor mortals.  They seem to have no true feelings for humans OR for (other) animals.  They seem to be not nature lovers, but to see themselves as above nature, a holy lot, and so are in the way here, and belong in heaven, as Mark Twain said of those who do not repent of the "good" they try to do.   Love nature?  Love fish?  Love animals?  And still eat them?  Of course we go.  They give us milk, butter, meat, clothing.   And just as Prometheus had to swipe fire from Mt. Olympus, so must we yet continue to wrestle these "gifts" from the self-elected gods of today. Honestly, I try to understand all points of view, but I admit to discomfort in the company of  the self-righteous. Jess Thompson

Response:

Jess, I support catch and release of wild trout, (not hatchery), but I don’t want you to get the idea that I never eat one or would try to tell you not to.  I don’t like the idea of filling the freezer with wild trout to take home with you.  We all have pictures of our ancestors standing beside 50 dead trout with a big smile on their face.  There are days when you could seriously deplete the trout population in a stream with a fly rod and fly.  We spend enough money to buy the fish in a store by the time we get to the stream, so we must be fishing for the experience, not the food. The best recipe for wild trout is to coat them with flour and corn meal and fry them over the camp fire.     — Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail Ernie Harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes.  Fried.  In butter. Fishie fishie in the brook, Daddy catch ‘em on a hook. Momma fry ‘em in a pan, Baby eat ‘em like a man. <snip Honestly, I try to understand all points of view, but I admit to discomfort in the company of  the self-righteous. Jess Thompson

Response:

Jess, I support catch and release of wild trout, (deleted)

The phrase "Catch and Release of Wild Trout" is an oxymoron. Perhaps the ultimate oxymoron. It is not unlike "Break and Release of a Wild Horse". Think hard. What *is* a wild trout ?  A trout born and raised in "The Wild". What  *is* The Wild ?  Nature as God left it without the interference of man. Every time man visits the wild it is a little less wild. Every road or trail built into wilderness, it is a little less wild. and yes… Every time you catch and release a wild trout, it is less wild than it was before. If you *honestly* seek truth, this would be a pretty inescapable one. Consider: The fish are so used to people on The Frying Pan river now, that a careful stalk is less important than an exact imitation of the natural.  This is *EXACTLY* opposite of what fishing in Wilderness, to Wild Trout, is.   Yet, you see the "Catch and Release Wild Trout" License plate frames on virtually all of the SUV’s and mini-vans in The Parking Lot. This irony drives me mad ! On The Frying Pan river, I once landed a +5 LBS Wild Trout (Your words, not mine) in the current on 7X and a #20 biot emerger. This was no wild trout, I contend, as this would be impossible with a real 5 pound wild trout fighting for its life. But that’s just it, isn’t it ? The trout are not fighting for their life, not after being released a half a dozen times.  They come to hand like old boots up there. The slogan "Catch and Release Wild Trout"  *is* an oxymoron and really, really counter-productive to having real Wild Trout. Convince me otherwise. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

Moe Skeeter wrote The phrase "Catch and Release of Wild Trout" is an oxymoron.

[clever argument snipped] The slogan "Catch and Release Wild Trout"  *is* an oxymoron and really, really counter-productive to having real Wild Trout. Convince me otherwise.

It is not an oxymoron the very first time a wild trout is caught (in its life).  You have a point that repeated catchings may cause trout to behave less ‘wildly’ – though your anecdote is not proof, I will admit that your assertion stands to reason. But, according to your definition, a wild trout can only be caught once … whether it is released or eaten, it ceases to be a wild trout upon catching.  Now I’ll grant you that once a wild trout is caught, it’s fair to say that it is no longer wild so I guess its then fair to say that ‘release’ and ‘wild trout’ are oxymoronic.  But no less oxymoronic than saying, "Tonight I’m serving wild trout for dinner." As far as I know, Ernie was talking mainly about catching wild trout that meet your definition (never caught before).  Much the same attitude some guys have about virgins, I guess. Claiming that an oxymoron is somehow counter-productive to having real Wild Trout is the kind of statement one might expect from one having the fertile mind of a fruitcake Convince me otherwise. —                                                             -dnc- to reply, change ‘dnc’ to ‘dcollins’ in email address

Response:

… The slogan "Catch and Release Wild Trout"  *is* an oxymoron and really, really counter-productive to having real Wild Trout. Convince me otherwise.

Well, Tim, you just have to consider humans as *part of* the wild!                            - jqt –

Response:

It is not an oxymoron the very first time a wild trout is caught (in its life).  You have a point that repeated catchings may cause trout to behave less ‘wildly’ – though your anecdote is not proof, I will admit that your assertion stands to reason.

I do not understand how you can say that…100 is bigger than 1, but 1 is just as valid a number. But, according to your definition, a wild trout can only be caught once … whether it is released or eaten, it ceases to be a wild trout upon catching.

so far so good… Now I’ll grant you that once a wild trout is caught, it’s fair to say that it is no longer wild so I guess its then fair to say that ‘release’ and ‘wild trout’ are oxymoronic.  But no less oxymoronic than saying, "Tonight I’m serving wild trout for dinner."

I don’t rememember seeing "Tonight I am Serving Wild Trout For Dinner" License plate frames or as a slogan for our national fisheries management coalition…<g… (but…I like the sound of it and might have some printed up….HEY LICENSE FRAME DUDE !!! WHERE ARE YOU ???) It fits very neatly with the "Halfordian Golfer" theme. But, you’re shooting yourself in the foot and contradicting your first argument.   If the FIRST time is a freebie and it is still purely wild, it IS a wild trout whenn you kill and eat it. Now…eating Wild Trout…is that a bad thing ?  Of course not.   I mean…in colorado a valid management phrase could be… "EAT A WILD BROOKIE…SAVE A NATIVE CUTTHROAT". As far as I know, Ernie was talking mainly about catching wild trout that meet your definition (never caught before).  Much the same attitude some guys have about virgins, I guess.

Well, he *is* doing the same thing to them….<g Claiming that an oxymoron is somehow counter-productive to having real Wild Trout is the kind of statement one might expect from one having the fertile mind of a fruitcake

Actually,  if you leave fruitcake lying around, molds will grow…unless it is rum soaked.  Someone said that’s how they knew Christmas was over….you mistake your fruitcake for your ghia pet. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

The slogan "Catch and Release Wild Trout"  *is* an oxymoron and really, really counter-productive to having real Wild Trout. Convince me otherwise. Well, Tim, you just have to consider humans as *part of* the wild!

OK..Big boy, what does Wild and Wilderness mean …? — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jess, I support catch and release of wild trout, (deleted) The phrase "Catch and Release of Wild Trout" is an oxymoron. Perhaps the ultimate oxymoron. It is not unlike "Break and Release of a Wild Horse". Think hard. What *is* a wild trout ?  A trout born and raised in "The Wild". What  *is* The Wild ?  Nature as God left it without the interference of man.

if a wild trout is as you describe then "Catch and Release of Wild Trout" is not oxymoronic regardless if the fish has been caught the first time or the fifth time. However ‘wild’ means untamed or not domesticated or specifically ‘not requiring the hand of man to survive.’ That’s why a horse; an equine species domesticated and bred by man can be wild. Naturally spawned cutts in the little creek on my mother-in-laws property are wild even though the land is not or the fact me and my kids prick their lips from time to time. Kokanee is Colorado are another matter and clearly are not wild. Now if want to look at a phrase that’s oxymoronic and invented by an oxymoron just think of ‘pure catch and release’ ;^) Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

Response:

Question:

I am trying to answer the following fishing facts, that maybe some of you have the answers to: 1.      What is the current world record for King Salmon? Where was it caught and when? 2.      What is the current world record for Rainbow Trout and when was it caught? 3.      The Rainbow Trout world record used to be something like 42 lbs from Lake Pend Oreille. If that record does not still hold, what were the details surrounding that old record? If you know any of these, please e-mail to *                                                                       * * "Sedulously eschew obfuscatory hyperverbosity or prolixity."          *

Response:

1.     What is the current world record for King Salmon? Where was it caught and when?  97 1/4 lbs, 1986.  This was in an article in this month’s Salmon, Trout,  and Steelheader magazine.  greg pavlov

…and, caught on the Kenai River, AK.  It was a big second-run king. -tgades

Response:

1.  What is the current world record for King Salmon? Where was it caught and when?

The record sport-caught King was ninety some pounds, caught in Alaska’s Kenai River.  The record commercially-netted king was in excess of 120 lbs, as I recall, caught in the Cook Inlet. Several years ago a sport fisherman on the Kenai tied into what experienced guides believed was a King exceeding 120 lbs.  The guy played it for several days (sic) before it finally broke off.  It was kind of fun to check the newspaper every morning and see how the fight was going. — -Wayne Trzyna

Response:

While where on the record… Does anyone know the flyfishing record for arctic grayling?  I can only find an all tackle record. Thanks, Lynn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am trying to answer the following fishing facts, that maybe some of you have the answers to: 1. What is the current world record for King Salmon? Where was it caught and when? 2. What is the current world record for Rainbow Trout and when was it caught? 3. The Rainbow Trout world record used to be something like 42 lbs from Lake Pend Oreille. If that record does not still hold, what were the details surrounding that old record? If you know any of these, please e-mail to *                                                                       * * "Sedulously eschew obfuscatory hyperverbosity or prolixity."          *

Response:

Question:

I’ll be teaching at Hollins College in Roanoke for the spring semester, February-May, and wonder if I should bring my gear with me…I know nothing about the nearby fishing, though I’ve fished some of the eastern streams.

Response:

I spend some time down in the Blacksburg area (Va Tech grad) and I’d like to hear about fly fishing opportunities in SW VA.  So if you find out anything, let me know!   Thanks

Response:

South fork of the HOlston river.  Opposite the hatchery for about 200 yards up and downstream.  incredibly huge trout.  average is around 4 pounds.  tough turf.  go small and pray for rain.  two weeks ago i landed a 23" rainbow.  no joke.  Bob Crawshaw  Flyfishing Virginia, L.L.C.   804-467-6668

Response:

Response:

Question:

Does anyone have infro. on fishing the Cumberland River below Wolfcreek Dam… Access, Flies to use and water coditions? Thanks Tom Becker Louisville,Ky

Response:

Does anyone have infro. on fishing the Cumberland River below Wolfcreek Dam… Access, Flies to use and water coditions? Thanks Tom Becker Louisville,Ky

Tom, check with the nice folks at the Lac Loon flyfishing shop. Don Mclean, the owner, can give you info, point you to guide services or take you himself. He also has a lot of good equipment and supplies, all flyfishing. Your neighbor, Bob

Response:

Question:

I am planning a 4 day FF trip to Juneau, Alaska at the end of August. I sure could use some info on the following: Fly patterns and sizes Techniques Favorite streams Line size (I will be fishing with a G. Loomis 9′ 6wt) I have a friend who lives in Alaska and fishes quite a bit, but, when I told him that I wanted to come and fly fish he said that he hasn’t seen anyone around Juneau fly fishing and that it was not the method of choice for that area.  I plan on fly-fishing. Am I being too optomistic? Thanks in advance.

Response:

One reason there is so little fly fishing in Juneau is that it is relatively hard to get to a stream. The airport is on a small island off the coast, and there is essentially only 1 road north and south a short distance.  Most people have boats that they use to troll for fish in the inland waterway. I fished there once, on Montana Creek. You want to be careful of bears, especially late in the summer when the spawning fish are in the rivers in numbers.  The scenery is beautiful; have a great time. In article – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am planning a 4 day FF trip to Juneau, Alaska at the end of August. I sure could use some info on the following: Fly patterns and sizes Techniques Favorite streams Line size (I will be fishing with a G. Loomis 9′ 6wt) I have a friend who lives in Alaska and fishes quite a bit, but, when I told him that I wanted to come and fly fish he said that he hasn’t seen anyone around Juneau fly fishing and that it was not the method of choice for that area.  I plan on fly-fishing. Am I being too optomistic? Thanks in advance.

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi, Since moving to New Hampshire I’ve become interested in fly fishing, but when I started looking into it, including getting some introductory books to read I was startled at how expensive it is.  Basically, I was looking at somewhere around $400 to get started.  Of course, I can go to Kmart and buy the beginners set for around $40, but all the books claim this inexpensive stuff is garbage and that I should be spending close to $200 for a rod, etc.  I’m wondering at the experiences others have had with bargain equipment.  Is it worth it to start with cheap stuff and move up to good equipment later, or will I be totally wasting my time?  Does anyone have suggestions as to good beginner equipment?  How about sources for used equipment?  I’m definately open to suggestions. Thanks, — | Dartmouth College                                  Home:  603-448-5677 | | 6211 Sudikoff Laboratory, Rm 108                                       | | Hanover, NH  03755                                                     |

Wow, a fellow Tri-towner, I am from lebanon, NH…actually I see you have a 448#, which indicates lebanong, but anyway, I have a cheap K-Mart brand one, and it works for me, I don’t go out and catch 50 pound brown trout on it, I catch a few Rainbow’s on it that MAY go a pound, and they don’t seem to notice that I have a ceap outfit. I feel that if you are a good enough fisherman, and you know where the fish are and what they are eating, that you can catch them on a stick with a piece of line tied on to it with you bait. Afterall, the guy who set the record for Largemouth bass probably wasn’t using much more than that, that must have been one HELL of a fight… $cott Goodwin Lebanon, NH — |      /|~~~ |EAT. SLEEP. FISH.   "PLAY BALL!" (my 2 favorite words) |   /   |___ |$cott WAY up -N- the wilds of New Hampshire

Response:

: Hi, : Since moving to New Hampshire I’ve become interested in fly fishing, : but when I started looking into it, including getting some introductory Cheap is fine but look for an outfit that provides a double tapered flyline and is balance 5 weight line with a 5 weight rod. Director of Economic Development        Voice (206) 683-2025 — Director of Economic Development        Voice (206) 683-2025

Response:

Hello Fellow Granite-Stater, I’m 40 miles away in Warner, and I can’t catch a thing.  Even on the old $400 LL Bean Deluxe.  I’d trade it in any day for your stick and string if I knew where to catch some trout.  So where are the fish? Always Skunked, Brad

Response:

Hi, Since moving to New Hampshire I’ve become interested in fly fishing, but when I started looking into it, including getting some introductory books to read I was startled at how expensive it is.  Basically, I was looking at somewhere around $400 to get started.  Of course, I can go to Kmart and buy the beginners set for around $40, but all the books claim this inexpensive stuff is garbage and that I should be spending close to $200 for a rod, etc.  I’m wondering at the experiences others have had with bargain equipment.  Is it worth it to start with cheap stuff and move up to good equipment later, or will I be totally wasting my time?  Does anyone have suggestions as to good beginner equipment?  How about sources for used equipment?  I’m definately open to suggestions. Thanks, — | Dartmouth College                                  Home:  603-448-5677 | | 6211 Sudikoff Laboratory, Rm 108                                       | | Hanover, NH  03755                                                     |

Response: