Question:

Practical advice snipped… Patience, determination, something the rod can rest on and be turned (by hand or with a slow motor) while the wraps are being applied and while the epoxy dries.

For a "wrapping station," take a straight, flat piece of 1" x 4" to 8" X 4.5′ to 6.5′ (US meas.) board, plywood, MDF, etc, and cut two 6" or so pieces from one end, notch a "V" into one end of each piece, glue or tack (but if tacking, don’t put the tacks in the "V" but on the sides) a couple of layers of felt into the notches.  Attach these to the base board, in an upright position, with the "V" up and the point of the "V" aligned with the centerline of the base board, about 2 1/2′ apart  Take a bolt of sufficient length and diameter to hold your thread spools, but allow it to "free spool," 2 flat "fender"-style washers, and 6 wing nuts (4 to fasten the bolt to the brackets and 2, with the washers, to control tension on the spool), and a couple of "L" brackets, and attach as a thread holder at a mid-point between the two upright notched pieces on the long base board.and voila, a "wrapping station."  If the above doesn’t provide enough detail, or isn’t clear, and anyone wants more details, I’ll be happy to further describe. HTH, R

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There’s a message board at www.vfs.com that has a rodbuilding section.

See http://www.flyshop.com/centers/rodbuilding/ Has step by step instructions.  Good concise book is LA Garcia’s Handcrafting a Graphite Fly Rod.  Doesn’t really have much more info than the web site but has very good close-up photos.  Dale Clemens’ Advanced Custom Rod Building is the book you’ll want if you really start getting into rod-building. (some of what he says about his own products should be taken with a grain of salt). Good quality blank is a St. Croix SCIV.  If you build your own rods from premium blanks you can figure on saving 40% or so below the factory rod price (with the exception of Winston which sems to charge very high prices for its blanks in comparison with their finished rods). I’ve been pleased with Lamiglas rod blanks (www.anglersworkshop.com is a good place for these). A good value on blanks can often be found when a certain rod is being discontinued. St. Croix, Lamiglas and discontinued Sage blanks have all proven their worth in my experiences as a rod builder.  I did buy a Scott blank for full price.  Expensive but I really love that rod. www.hookhack.com www.anglersworkshop.com www.shofftackle.com www.feather-craft.com Good service all around but the first two are especially friendly and helpful.  I picked up a cosmetic-blem 8′ 4 pc 3 wt Lamiglas from anglersworkshop for $35.  Not even Cabelas can beat a price like that. Mu

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I’m a DIY’er.  Always have been.

me too The last time out on the river, < snipped for brevity—

I came to same conclusion fishing for little grayling and smaller trout-but I went with a 9′ – 4 weight    -what is included when one purchases a rod blank

just that- a blank- 2 piece, 3 piece, or whatever you order.    -what steps are involved in turning it into a rod

a.)spine the rod (i.e. find out what plane it wants to bend in- lots of discussion as to what side the guides go on- on the spine or opposite b.)fit the grip and epoxy it in place c.)fit the reel seat and epoxy it in place d) buff, file the guide feet to eliminate burrs that could damage the blank or create a "crack" in the thread wrap e.)determine the guide spacing and tape or temp wrap the guides in place f.)wrap the guides (do this well – a bad job and your rod works- but its ugly) g.)verify guide alignment and re-align if neeeded h.)verify guide alignment and re-align if neeeded i.)epoxy the wraps j) install tip top k)go fishing Check the VFS (virtual flyshop)- they have an excellent breakdown on the proceedure.  though it takes longer to read than to do it.    -what additional parts/supplies need to be purchased

If you buy a blank- you will need also to buy a tip top, guide set (most manufacturers will provide recommended guide spacing), hook keeper (optional), winding check (also optional) cork grip, reel seat  with spacer, rod winding thread, rod building epoxy for gluing the cork and reel seat in place, and rod wrap epoxy ( I use Flex Cote lite & I like it). Personally-for a first attempt I’d buy a kit- it comes with all of the above, Cabelas, hook and hackle, etc all offer beginner kits and some flexibility as to what blank you want to use.    -what tools/skills are needed

a magnifying light is helpful, some sort of device to cradle the rod while you turn the blank to wrap the threads ( look at various websites – its no prob to build these things- my first cradle was a bent up coat hanger- I built my latest contraption out of plywood with felt cushions)., something to tension the thread (many run the thread between the pages of the phone book and find that this adequately tensions the thread). You will need something to sand the inside of the cork handle to allow it to fit the but of the rod–I use sandpaper taped to a broken section of an old fly rod chucked into a cordless drill  (use garnet paper- not wet/dry–if the sandpaper comes off your mandrel inside the grip, garnet paper will fall apart if you hold it under the faucet- wet or dry just giggles-ask me how I know).  It is really nice to have a low rpm motor to turn the rod while you epoxy the wraps- it allows the epoxy to self level and keeps it from sagging.  I bought just the motor and made a cradle for the rod from cabelas.    -which particular blanks represent a good value

I’ve built a 2 St Croix rods (SCIII & SCIV), both 9′ 6 wts -I like them both- and I’ve built 2 GLoomis GL3 rods that I really like (9′ 4 wt and9′ 5wt). I am about to try a blank from hook and hackle 9′6 8wt Pointers to any printed material would be appreciated too.

print out the instructions from virtual fly shop- its all you need- cabelas kits also come with step by step instructions. I bough a 5.00 book at a local flyshop printed by Guidebrod (I think). Thanks! Bill Bill- its a fun project- not terribly difficult, and you can get a pretty good rod for some savings over a factory- but its yours, built to your specs- whatever grade of seat, guides , etc you want.  go for it. John

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    -what is included when one purchases a rod blank

The rod itself without tiptop, guides, thread, color protector, slow dry epoxy for wraps, cork grip, reel seat, quick dry epoxy (for grip, seat, tiptop). The blank price includes none of that stuff. I’m guessing that some blanks come with sock and tube, but only the high-end rods I believe. Otherwise you have to buy those yourself.     -what steps are involved in turning it into a rod

Assembling the stuff above.     -what additional parts/supplies need to be purchased

The stuff above.     -what tools/skills are needed

Patience, determination, something the rod can rest on and be turned (by hand or with a slow motor) while the wraps are being applied and while the epoxy dries.     -which particular blanks represent a good value

Compared to the cost of a new finished rod, all blanks are pretty much a good value if your time is worth nothing or if you enjoy DIY. If this is going to be a "keeper" rod, you might wanna go to a fly shop and find the best rod to meet your casting style and then order the blank. Closeout rod blanks (Sage SP and LL, for example) are especially a good deal but are sometimes hard to find. My opinion: if you’re gonna buy a no-name blank to save money I think you might as well just consider purchasing an already-finished Cabelas 7.5′ 4wt Stowaway or 3wt Three forks rod for much less money than you could build one. If you really wanna DIY, I’d recommend purchasing an inexpensive blank or even a kit for your first project and treat is as a potential throw-away. Learning how to get the wraps to look good isn’t rocket science but it does take a bit of practice. Pointers to any printed material would be appreciated too.

There’s a message board at www.vfs.com that has a rodbuilding section. Browse the archives and you’ll find way more than you need to know. Be extremely careful, though, because once you build one rod you’ll find that it’s *very, very* hard to stop HTH, –Steve

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Hi- I’m a DIY’er.  Always have been.  As I mentioned recently, I’ve begun tying my own flies, which I find enjoyable.  I like to tell myself that I do these things out of frugality, but I fear that it has more to do with a stubborn notion of "jeez, I’m *sure* I could do that just as well myself!"  Of course, I usually can’t, but I have a good time trying anyhow. The last time out on the river, while landing yet another 10" trout, I got to thinking that perhaps it might be more fun with a lighter weight rod.  I currently fish a 5 weight.  My fishing has yet to find me with any fish larger than 14" on the other end, and I think I’ve had one run line off the reel twice.  I’m thinking about a 3 weight, perhaps 7.5′.  I fish streams more frequently than rivers and normally am more concerned with casting the fly "right there" rather than "waaaay over there". That got me to looking through the catalogs, which, in turn, got me to thinking about rod blanks.  I’ve seen mention of these suckers here on ROFF, but am now more intrigued about what exactly is involved in turning one into a fishable rod. Could someone outline:     -what is included when one purchases a rod blank     -what steps are involved in turning it into a rod     -what additional parts/supplies need to be purchased     -what tools/skills are needed     -which particular blanks represent a good value Pointers to any printed material would be appreciated too. Thanks! Bill

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Hi- am now more intrigued about what exactly is involved in turning one into a fishable rod. Could someone outline:     -what is included when one purchases a rod blank

The blank.  The graphite and nothing but the graphite…. …unless you buy a rod building kit which usually includes all of the parts needed (guides, reel seat, grip, tip, etc).     -what steps are involved in turning it into a rod

It’s actually quite easy. – glue the reel seat on. – glue the cork grip on. – wrap all the guides on – varnish/epoxy the wraps – glue the tip on.     -what additional parts/supplies need to be purchased

All the stuff listed above if you don’t buy a kit. Epoxy and/or varnish, guides, reel seat, thread, cork grip, tip top, hook keeper     -what tools/skills are needed

No special skills are needed.  A rod turner is really handy to have for turning the rod while the guides are drying, but other than that nothing else is absolutely needed.     -which particular blanks represent a good value

Who knows, it’s pretty much up to your values. Try a bunch of finished rods and buy a blank of the rod you like.  Hook and Hackle has some inexpensive blanks, but who knows if you would like them. Have fun,      - Ken

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi- I’m a DIY’er.   That got me to looking through the catalogs, which, in turn, got me to thinking about rod blanks.  I’ve seen mention of these suckers here on ROFF, but am now more intrigued about what exactly is involved in turning one into a fishable rod. Could someone outline:    -what is included when one purchases a rod blank    -what steps are involved in turning it into a rod    -what additional parts/supplies need to be purchased    -what tools/skills are needed    -which particular blanks represent a good value Pointers to any printed material would be appreciated too.

I don’t say this to be rude or flippant, but mainly because you start off the post with the words "I’m a DIY’er." If you are like all DIY’ers I know, you are the type who not only learns "better" and faster by "tinkering" and doing, but enjoys the learning process more when doing that way.  If I’m incorrect about this, post as such, and I’ll offer more specific advice if I have any that seems helpful. That said, if I may:   There are numerous websites, a www.google.com search ought to keep you busy for weeks, and there are quite a few books out there as well, and of course, ROFF is a decent source.  Dale Clemens has a book, which IIRC, is called _Fiberglass Rod Making_ (I don’t have it handy at the moment).  I like his books, but some find them a bit too advanced (and some find it dated) – YMMV, of course.   As to the actual work, go get an assortment of REALLY used cheap rods (like the 1-5USD ones at charity stores, tag/garage sales, etc.) – fly rods, bait-casting rods, spinning rods, whatever.  Just try to get an assortment of types, and try to make sure most have cork handles. Condition, brand, etc. isn’t really important, even broken and incomplete rods are fine.  If you happen to stumble over something that might be a restorable "keeper," just put it away for now.  Once you have several "project rods," find a reference source you like, be it online, a book, or here, and start taking the rods apart, noting how they were assembled.  Then simply reverse the process, finishing the rods and learning while you go.   Use the worst of the bunch first, even broken rods, knowing full well they are simply learning projects.  You’ll likely have specific questions, and feel free to ask them on ROFF.  You’ll find lots of info here, some good, some not-so-good, and some, well, let’s just say it’s there. HTH?? R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Thanks! Bill

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Question:

If I have told Wally once, I have told him a thousand times:  "Don’t fish *my* stream without talkin’ to me first!"  I would have been more than happy to remove the spell I have cast upon the stream, had I known that the two of you were goin’ to fish up there.  Wally makes this same bet with other fishermen Steve.  There is one ‘bow that I haven’t been able to get through to, and he and Wally are buddies, so the whole thing was rigged against you. Next time you really want to catch trout on "Opie’s" stream, just let me know! Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I bought dinner for Waldo this evening. It seems I made a little streamside bet and he won. Here’s what happened…

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…eagerly awaiting Waldo’s dinner report…… john

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…eagerly awaiting Waldo’s dinner report…… john

well my friends, it all started innocently enough when steve (who by this time was wondering if there were any fish over 3" in opies crik) suggested that the first person who caught a trout of respectable size on a dry would be further rewarded with a free dinner by the other. that was the moment i decided to change flies. i had been fishing a hopper with a prince nymph dropper and snipped all that off and went to my good ole standby, a yellow humpy. as the day had progressed with little action on the muddy waters, i started skittering the humpy in some fast sluice runs. the only rainbow in the crik took offense, and nailed the humpy and i brought him to hand….. all the while singin that ‘ole blues ditty…. "justa’ catchin’ dinnuh… oh yeah…." i released the fish back into the waters knowing that it would be only a short time for steve to catch a trout. as dinner had been procured, i broke my fly off on a rhodo and let steve finish the stretch. he soon had a brookie at hand and seem satisfied. we pulled out and began the walk back to the car, both of us completely happy with the day. dinner was served at a local morganton eatery and when finished, steve headed home and i did likewise. one could wonder why we were happy with only a fish apiece of respectable size. well, i was overjoyed just to be back on some NC trout water after a hiatus of nearly two months….. long overdue and i’ll be damned if it will be that long…. ever again. –waldo

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I bought dinner for Waldo this evening. It seems I made a little streamside bet and he won. Here’s what happened… First off, I met Waldo at his brand spankin’ new fly shop this morning and it looks like a real winner. Nice location, nice inside layout, nice tackle just as on his Web site, with more brand name equipment to come soon as I understand it. Anyway, cool digs and I wish him success. Despite the heavy rains last night, we headed up "Opie’s" Creek for an afternoon of fishing. We had hoped to have legal representation during the trip, but none was available. A good lawyer is apparently hard to find these days. The water levels were rather high (from what I understand–this was my first visit to this particular stream) and the water was a bit murkier than normal, but it was nothing to be afraid of and certainly not conditions that would keep the two of us from fishing since neither one of us has fished the NC mountains in well over a month. That’s pretty much status quo for me, of course, but Waldo was visibly shaking by the time we got rigged up The water was cold–sorry JeffC1474 I forgot to take a streamside temperature reading–the weather was very nice, the company was grand. All the makings of a great day on the stream. Except that apparently someone forgot to tell the fish. As far as casting and fly placement goes, I had my best stuff today and left it all on the stream. I ended up catching about 14 sucker minnows all under 2 inches in length. Seriously. Neither one of us could buy a "real" fish even with nymphs and we both worked the water HARD. That stream has some of the most choice runs, ripples and pools I have ever seen and we got nothing. Nada. Bupkus. Finally, I needed to see if the master could break the spell and bring a trout to hand so I suggested that the first one to catch a fish longer than 2 inches on a dry fly should receive a free meal compliments of the loser. Lemme just say that Waldo sure knows how to work for a meal Actually, it looked for a time as though we would both go hungry, but finally Waldo was rewarded with a nice rainbow and then I caught a little brookie (over 2" but not by a whole heck of a lot) on the next cast. So, he won the dinner and I came in a close–oh so close–second. Bon apetite, Waldo me boy. Already looking forward to next time, –Steve

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Question:

It looks like I’ll be in Switzerland next August. I was thinking that this might be a chance to try some European flyfishing. Anyone have suggestions about what would be good that time of year? It doesn’t have to be near Switzerland. This is a free trip, so I can afford to splurge on extra travel.

August is not exactly the best time for fishing here, but whatever, drop me a mail a little before the time and I will arrange something. Do it at least a month or so beforehand, and I will try and organise a license and everything for you if you would like to have a go here in Germany. I will try and send you some info on Switzerland as well. Your best bet for reasonable fishing is probably Austria. Tight lines ! MC

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It looks like I’ll be in Switzerland next August. I was thinking that this might be a chance to try some European flyfishing. Anyone have suggestions about what would be good that time of year? It doesn’t have to be near Switzerland. This is a free trip, so I can afford to splurge on extra travel. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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Question:

My favorite river appears to have a hatch of what somebody told me was Crane Flys.  The insects torso hangs below the wings and the bottom of the torso comes around and looks like it connects with the thorax.  Imagine a flying J with wings on the top part of the J and you have the insect I am talking about. Does anybody have any information on these insects and if so, what patterns best imitate them. Thanks! Mike Wilson Fishing!! What else is there?

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FlyFis4fun: <<Does anybody have any information on these insects and if so, what patterns best imitate them. Patterns are in "Fly Patterns of Umpqua Feather Merchants", and Stewrt/Allen’s "Flies for trout".  Both adult and larva patterns are listed.  I can not imagine the crane fly as a major hatch, but if you say so…… Dave LaCourse

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My favorite river appears to have a hatch of what somebody told me was Crane Flys.  The insects torso hangs below the wings and the bottom of the torso comes around and looks like it connects with the thorax.  Imagine a flying J with wings on the top part of the J and you have the insect I am talking about.

If they are indeed crane flies, also know as "daddy long legs" they belong to the family tipulidae, and are terrestrials which often fall on the water in considerable numbers, especially when it is windy,  being very clumsy fliers.  They are often imitated using long trailing knotted pheasant tail or nylon legs, body, hackle, and hackle tip spent wings to match the colour, usually from light tan to dark brown, but olive and yellow variations are also common.  An excellent pattern may be made using detached buoyant mayfly bodies. TL MC

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Thanks for the information gentleman but it appears that the insect that I am seeing is something other then the Crane Fly.   The insect in question, as afore mentioned, is a pale tan to whiteish tan and flys with its torso bent around to connect near its thorax.  It hatches in fair numbers though I must admit, I have never seen any of them actually land on the water.  The primary food on this river is Stone Flys so this is more of a question exploration then anything else. Thanks for the help so far. Mike

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for the information gentleman but it appears that the insect that I am seeing is something other then the Crane Fly. The insect in question, as afore mentioned, is a pale tan to whiteish tan and flys with its torso bent around to connect near its thorax.  It hatches in fair numbers though I must admit, I have never seen any of them actually land on the water.  The primary food on this river is Stone Flys so this is more of a question exploration then anything else. Thanks for the help so far. Mike

Hi Mike, how big is this insect ?  Does it hatch from the water, or does it just appear on the water ? TL MC

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Many Crane Fly species are terrestial, living in damp soil.  Aquatic species are usually found in streams with bottoms of fine gravel silt or sand.  Pupation usually takes place in damp soil along stream margins and is therefore of little account to the flyfisherperson. The larvae are simple and tube like and usually not available to fish as they burrow rather deeply and have no swimming abilities.  They are available during spates and may be represented by wooly worms.  The "Muskrat", an old Polly Rosborough pattern is another Crane Fly larva imitation.  Adults seem to be more available during light summer rains and may be represented by any appropriately sized and colored dry fly. As I write this I am watching a hiuge cranefly llumbering around the room….here in the Northwest there is a species that frequents lawns(well watered) and in climax years actually causes quite a bit of damage to the turf. Thanks for the information gentleman but it appears that the insect that I am seeing is something other then the Crane Fly.   The insect in question, as afore mentioned, is a pale tan to whiteish tan and flys with its torso bent around to connect near its thorax.  It hatches in fair numbers though I must admit, I have never seen any of them actually land on the water.  The primary food on this river is Stone Flys so this is more of a question exploration then anything else. Thanks for the help so far. Mike

– Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state."                          Tom McGuane

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The insect in question, as afore mentioned, is a pale tan to whiteish tan and flys with its torso bent around to connect near its thorax.  It hatches in fair numbers though I must admit, I have never seen any of them actually land on the water.  The primary food on this river is Stone Flys so this is more of a question exploration then anything else. Thanks for the help so far. Mike

Hello Mike, I sometimes fish a limestone stream in Eastern Pennsylvania  where Orange Craneflys (orange head) gather in clusters all along the stream banks and edge of water.  The locals have an easy to tie pattern for the orange cranefly that is very effective..  Basically, your going to tie a dry fly without a tail or wings — just body, legs, & head.   Very lightly dubbed muskrat body with Dun colored hackle, use orange thread and build a small head.  I hope this helps. Dave

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My favorite river appears to have a hatch of what somebody told me was Crane Flys.  The insects torso hangs below the wings and the bottom of the torso comes around and looks like it connects with the thorax.  Imagine a flying J with wings on the top part of the J and you have the insect I am talking about. If they are indeed crane flies, also know as "daddy long legs"

I don’t know about where you live, Mike, but in the US Crane Flies and Daddy Long Legs are not at all the same thing. Crane Flies actually have wings and fly. They look like gigantic mosquitoes, but they don’t bite. Daddy Long Legs look like large spiders (but they aren’t spiders). They don’t have wings.

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Crane Flies:   When I was in Ireland a few summers ago, the gillie taught me how to "dibble" for salmon: He put a relatively heavy wet fly at the end of my leader, and then a bushy dry fly on a dropper, about 6′ up from the tippet.   The idea was to use the wet fly as an anchor, and then bob the rod tip, so the dry fly danced on the surface of the water…on the surface one second, then suddenly 6" above, like a big bug jumping up and down on the water.   So I haven’t tried this over hear yet, frankly, but talking about it did lead to some interesting new information. I told this story to George Anderson,   and he said  "Sure, the guys over in Dillon (MT) have been fishing the crane fly hatch on the Beaverhead that way for years!" — /* Sandy Pittendrigh                  –oO0  * http://www.nervana.montana.edu/~sandy  */

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They look like giant mosquitoes…so how about a size 2 mosquito??? George

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Fish the larvae The trout eat them Lots easier to tie too… a Beaver leech — Free Lake Fly Fishing On-Line Magazine Lake Fly Fishing CD’s, Videos, Books http://www.rural.escape.ca/angling_north/fishing/organz.htm

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Question:

That would be interesting… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I want to see you cast THAT setup Big Al

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Howdy All… Last July, I had the pleasure of spending some quality angling time on Yellowstone Lake in Yellowstone National Park. The weather was snipped headed out into the center of the lake. We began trolling from north to south, which was a bit of a chore with the winds blowing as hard as they were. I was the first to feel the tug. Unfortunately, with my slow 4 weight fly rod, it is often difficult to get a good hook set, so the fish got off. Many of you may be asking why I would be using a fly rod to troll with. The reasoning lies in the technique being used to land these cutthroats by the dozens. I learned this technique a few years back from my brother, who in turn learned it from a friend of his. You start with a fly reel loaded up with backing. Then, you tie to the backing 3 or 4 colors of leaded line. Leaded line is simply a lead centered line covered in some type of cloth-like material and is available for a reasonable price at most fishing shops. It has the consistency of soft wire. Lengths of leaded line are measured in colors, which run approximately 4 to 5 yards each. So, for example, if pictures at: http://home.earthlink.net/~reinkings Rick

I want to see you cast THAT setup Big Al

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Howdy All… Last July, I had the pleasure of spending some quality angling time on Yellowstone Lake in Yellowstone National Park. The weather was clear, though a strong breeze was blowing out of the southwest. We rented a boat and headed out into the center of the lake. We began trolling from north to south, which was a bit of a chore with the winds blowing as hard as they were. I was the first to feel the tug. Unfortunately, with my slow 4 weight fly rod, it is often difficult to get a good hook set, so the fish got off. Many of you may be asking why I would be using a fly rod to troll with. The reasoning lies in the technique being used to land these cutthroats by the dozens. I learned this technique a few years back from my brother, who in turn learned it from a friend of his. You start with a fly reel loaded up with backing. Then, you tie to the backing 3 or 4 colors of leaded line. Leaded line is simply a lead centered line covered in some type of cloth-like material and is available for a reasonable price at most fishing shops. It has the consistency of soft wire. Lengths of leaded line are measured in colors, which run approximately 4 to 5 yards each. So, for example, if you have two colors worth of line out, you can make an educated guess that your lure might be running four to six feet deep. Its a handy convention, and it makes keeping track of where the hits are coming from simple. Tie to the end of the leaded line 10 to 15 feet of six or eight pound monofilament. To the end of that tie a muddler’s minnow. I have found that there is no reason to tie a lighter leader to the end of the mono, just tie the fly directly onto the mono. As far as fly size goes, the fish did not seem to be particularly choosy. I fished muddlers ranging from size 4 all the way down to size 12. Over the course of the day I also found no evidence that larger muddlers produced larger fish or that smaller muddlers attracted smaller fish. For those of you who have never caught a Yellowstone Cutthroat, they are a beautiful fish indeed. When I was there, the fish had just finished spawning, and many still bore their spawning colors. Most of the fish we caught were in the 14" to 20" range, and each one put up a good fight. Many even took line. Yellowstone Lake is definitely a lake worth checking into if you enjoy the timelessness of nature and the serenity that it brings. The fact that the cutthroat trout are there, and will readily take a muddler’s minnow just adds to the experience. pictures at: http://home.earthlink.net/~reinkings Rick

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Question:

Right on. Al

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Right on. Al

Fly" while slicing  your sandwich in two with your fillet knife. —

Question:

The laws should be changed about land owners owning the stream and the government should begin purchasing a 100′ strip of property along all streams. This would prevent property owners from dumping unwanted substances into our waters and polluting them.  It is time we started treating our streams like the valuable resource they are.

        that was taken from Ernie’s Post and somehow i dont read PUBLIC land into that snip. I read private land.  if you read it you will find 100′ strip  on ALL streams.  Im taking the post as its said. and im aware of BLM leasing to ranches. and yes i feel that the those public streams need help but Ernie states ALL streams.         I can get into seizure of private land but this isnt a place for that discussion.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Ernie was referring to PUBLIC lands. Out West large tracts of public lands are leased to ranches for very small fees.  I also think that these leasees should be be required to care for OUR land.  On a number of these leases that I’m personally aware of, these leasees try to illegally keep the public off these public lands by posting No Trespassing signs. Some leasees routinely place many more animals on the leased land than the lease allows. Imposing & enforcing regulations on this group is very difficult.  In many areas of the West, they are a large group with alot of political clout. There have been articles in Audubon Magazine about these abuses. I also agree with you concerning land owners rights. Many of our rights as land owners are being threatened. The vast majority of land owners care for the own land far better than the public does for our public land. I’m in favor of tax incentives, grants etc. given to landowners to encourage good conservation practices, like you suggested. Willi

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dan, and others…. I am not a member of the game commission, but do know the policies of the DGIF of Virginia on these matters …. am past president of one of the chapters of Trout Unlimited and have had discussions with the DGIF and some of their board members on this topic…. So it is the policy of DGIF to discontinue stocking on sections of streams as they become posted…..   Will still stock above and below if not posted. The right of peaceful passage on any stream that will support boat traffic (canoes) is always available.   In case of land owner ship, but state stocked waters and the land owner owns both pieces… especially if a Land Grant dating from 1759 from King George you may not fish, anchor, step on the stream bottom or do anything but pass.   In cases where the land is owned but not a land grant you may stay in the stream and fish, but not get on the bank…  We have just had a big case resolved here in Virginia over this issue…..   so if someone tells you this is land grant property….. don’t argue… just say excuse me and move on… Best case is to take a gift to the land owner and ask permission…. works everytime. I don’t have any problem with any landowner posting property that had been stocked in the past and the state then discontinuing stocking… Alan E. Hoover Anglers’ Rest Powhatan, Va        *the trout teach many, lessons*I haven’t heard for a while, but it used to be in Pennsylvania that to be

allowed to wade legally, the waterway had to be classified as a "navigatible waterway". This meaning that the body of water was open to larger boat traffic, such as tugs, barges, etc.  This also included legally passing over on any type of boat as well as wading. These smaller waterways are owned to the middle of the river or creek, unless both sides are owned by the same person. I have never heard of this being changed.                                       Jim

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<snipAll streams should be fenced 100′ back from the edge to prevent cattle and sheep  from destroying them.

Where would the cattle and sheep drink? <snip Human access should be provided at convenient intervals in the form of  domestic animal proof gates.

My experience has been that the gate would be left open frequently, allowing the livestock to enter anyway. <snip It is time we started treating our streams like the valuable resource they are.

True, but we need to remember that there are more issues than fish. Unless we all forsake meat forever, livestock must be raised somewhere. The American west is a source of a rich heritage to many of us. I was born a cowboy, but I chose to become a fly fisher. There are many facets to the issues being discussed here, and the commments that you have made here overlooks most of them. Jeff Runner

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Canoe access would probably be fine on streams and rivers.  The question usually arises on lakes and ponds, which Maine is full of, including hundreds which support only trout.  Many of these are wild populations, but many with silty bottoms require stocking.  The public is guaranteed access to a "great pond" over 10 acres in size, but that doesn’t mean you can even walk down a road to get there.  The whole issue has never been seriously challenged in court.  I believe any pond with vehicular access which is not granted to the public would not be stocked under the present policy.  I’ve strayed off the subject a bit, but access is sure to become a hot issue in Maine in the coming decades. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – well does access mean total public access or does canoe/boat put in count? just curious In Maine, the Department of Inland Fisheries & Wildlife has a clear policy that they will not stock fish where public access is not allowed.

Response:

Where would the cattle and sheep drink?

Access to water would be provided at controlled points. My experience has been that the gate would be left open frequently, allowing the livestock to enter anyway.

There is animal proof access such as turnstiles. Unless we all forsake meat forever, livestock must be raised somewhere. The American west is a source of a rich heritage to many of us. I was born a cowboy, but I chose to become a fly fisher. There are many facets to the issues being discussed here, and the commments that you have made here overlooks most of them. Jeff Runner

I am not suggesting that we don’t raise cattle, only suggesting that we don’t let them continue to destroy the environment.   – Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail Ernie Harrison

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you should just post it (poem) and who cares about rhyming and for the hisroty lesson on Kings Land Grants thanks it was interesting. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -If you want my poem on the subject, called "King’s Grant," e-mail back.  It doesn’t rhyme. Dave

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi fellow FF, I’m glad we don’t have the same problem here, as You have in the US, accessing our favorite lakes and streams. In Norway people have had for ages the right to peaceful passage over land and water, whoever owns it. There is a set of laws which regulates this right. But in general everybody can walk, ski, paddle and camp wherever they want in the nature (not fields and gardens). In summer -96, my wife and I, took a trip to Montana to fish in the legendary rivers there. It was a little different for us, driving around looking for spots marked with small fishes (=fishing access) on the roadmaps. Back home we’re used to park the car, then walk straight to where we want to fish …. But don’t get me wrong, we loved the place, despite all the "No Trespassing" signs. Great fishing and the scenery was awesome. We will come back to Montana (or maybe Idaho ..) as soon as we can. regards, ON

Hi, Same with us here in Nova Scotia, we are allowed "on or across" any property with the intent to fish. Now, if everyone would shut the cattle gates after they get in, we’d all be happy ! Bill

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… We will come back to Montana (or maybe Idaho ..) as soon as we can.

Welcome (back) if and when you come to Idaho! Very little land here is posted as private, and we have what many states dream of: Wild Trout! Why all the fuss over lack of access to "stocked" trout? I find this utterly puzzling. Stocked trout are not Wild Trout! "Stocking" trout points to misplaced priorities, especially with regards to riparian zone and habitat. But that’s just my opinion. Now, stocking ducks that can’t fly (with notches in their wings); that’s okay, because I’m not a hunter…  ;-)                            - jqt –

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part II: Well why dont you start convincing land owners about a conservation easement… thats better than a mandatory fencing… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -My 2 cents on this subject is stop stocking those poor lazy, diseased hatchery trout with their fins chewed off and start using the money to protect and restore habitat.  All streams should be fenced 100′ back from the edge to prevent cattle and sheep  from destroying them.  I had not realized the damage done by allowing animals to graze up to and in the streams until I saw what fencing did for Yellow Creek in Northern California.  The stream changed from a barren shallow overgrazed area to one where the grass and flowers were waist high and the stream became a deep trout laden joy to fish.  I think the fees paid by people who rent this grazing land should be used to construct these fences and failure to maintain them by the people who rent the land should result in termination of their contract and removal of their animals.  Human access should be provided at convenient intervals in the form of  domestic animal proof gates.  This would improve habitat, reduce erosion and improve water quality.  The laws should be changed about land owners owning the stream and the government should begin purchasing a 100′ strip of property along all streams. This would prevent property owners from dumping unwanted substances into our waters and polluting them.  It is time we started treating our streams like the valuable resource they are. Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail

Response:

Hi fellow FF, I’m glad we don’t have the same problem here, as You have in the US, accessing our favorite lakes and streams. In Norway people have had for ages the right to peaceful passage over land and water, whoever owns it. There is a set of laws which regulates this right. But in general everybody can walk, ski, paddle and camp wherever they want in the nature (not fields and gardens). In summer -96, my wife and I, took a trip to Montana to fish in the legendary rivers there. It was a little different for us, driving around looking for spots marked with small fishes (=fishing access) on the roadmaps. Back home we’re used to park the car, then walk straight to where we want to fish …. But don’t get me wrong, we loved the place, despite all the "No Trespassing" signs. Great fishing and the scenery was awesome. We will come back to Montana (or maybe Idaho ..) as soon as we can. regards, ON

Response:

Well i’ll have to disagree with you there. Private owner ship is what made america I dont want some King owning MY land.  and as for dumping.  I see more people dumping on public water/land than I do private. I know more private land owners who respect the property than dont respect their land . They pay the bank and pay taxes on THEIR land.  I see more citizens abusing Public land. Id be more worried about your local company than some farmer sick and tired of people trespassing on HIS land.

Ernie was referring to PUBLIC lands. Out West large tracts of public lands are leased to ranches for very small fees.  I also think that these leasees should be be required to care for OUR land.  On a number of these leases that I’m personally aware of, these leasees try to illegally keep the public off these public lands by posting No Trespassing signs. Some leasees routinely place many more animals on the leased land than the lease allows. Imposing & enforcing regulations on this group is very difficult.  In many areas of the West, they are a large group with alot of political clout. There have been articles in Audubon Magazine about these abuses. I also agree with you concerning land owners rights. Many of our rights as land owners are being threatened. The vast majority of land owners care for the own land far better than the public does for our public land. I’m in favor of tax incentives, grants etc. given to landowners to encourage good conservation practices, like you suggested. Willi

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My opinion: They probably have a politician in their pocket. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was out brookie fishing in the Shenandoah NP in Virginia this weekend, and ran across something I never really thought about before.  Driving back, I passed by a long stretch of state-stocked trout water.  Not all of it was posted, but over half had clear signs saying NO TRESPASSING, HUNTING OR FISHING.  Just exactly how can property owners do this?  I am simply questioning the legality of restricting access to a publicly funded stocking site.  How are the regulations written to allow for this.  It seems to be a bit odd.  Anyone who can explain this or offer some more information would be appreciated. As I understand it, if a land owner owns on one side, they technically can control to the middle of the stream. If they own BOTH sides, they can control access to the entire stream. You would be trespassing, simply. My question would more likely be, if landowners have these controls(and they should) why is the area stocked by state/federal funds? This is what I would like explained. Regards, J. Webb Atlanta Mac User Group

Response:

I was out brookie fishing in the Shenandoah NP in Virginia this weekend, and ran across something I never really thought about before.  Driving back, I passed by a long stretch of state-stocked trout water.  Not all of it was posted, but over half had clear signs saying NO TRESPASSING, HUNTING OR FISHING.  Just exactly how can property owners do this?  I am simply As I understand it, if a land owner owns on one side, they technically can control to the middle of the stream. If they own BOTH sides, they can control access to the entire stream. You would be trespassing, simply. My question would more likely be, if landowners have these controls(and they should) why is the area stocked by state/federal funds? This is what I would like explained.

We often find (1) property and trespass laws vary between states, (2) they may be affected differently in each state when private water is stocked by the taxpayer.  I’ve been told, in New York State, posted water may be waded or boated if stocked by the state, so long as the visitor enters from public access or across private land where he has permission for access. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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In Maine, the Department of Inland Fisheries & Wildlife has a clear policy that they will not stock fish where public access is not allowed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -back, I passed by a long stretch of state-stocked trout water.  Not all of it was posted, but over half had clear signs saying NO TRESPASSING, HUNTING OR FISHING.  Just exactly how can property owners do this?  I am simply questioning the legality of restricting access to a publicly funded stocking site.

Response:

well does access mean total public access or does canoe/boat put in count? just curious – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -In Maine, the Department of Inland Fisheries & Wildlife has a clear policy that they will not stock fish where public access is not allowed. back, I passed by a long stretch of state-stocked trout water.  Not all of it was posted, but over half had clear signs saying NO TRESPASSING, HUNTING OR FISHING.  Just exactly how can property owners do this?  I am simply questioning the legality of restricting access to a publicly funded stocking site.

Response:

Private property. Just the sound of those two words conjures up day dreams of monster fish that have never seen a fly.  While I may not get too many invitations to fish on private property, I am sure thankful when I do. If all the private property were made public than these dreams would disappear forever. That is how I view it than.    Private property is simply where the caretakers of my dreams live.

My only concern with this is that the ‘private property’ may continue to grow so that unless you do know someone, you just read about fishing here and watch it on the cable stations(while this can be interesting, it does not compare). I have seen some waters along Forest Service roads bought and now posted. It used to be stocked regularly and was a great place to take kids from the youth organization I worked at. We often find (1) property and trespass laws vary between states, (2) they may be affected differently in each state when private water is stocked by the taxpayer.  I’ve been told, in New York State, posted water may be waded or boated if stocked by the state, so long as the visitor enters from public access or across private land where he has permission for access.

I neglected to add that those are the rules for Georgia. I try to remember that this is read over the whole planet. I am sure there are some vast differences in the laws. As I said, those are the laws in Georgia. It is not that it is a real problem but I guess it caught my attention due to seeing some fisheries long available become posted. It is certainly a dilemma. I might add that the reasoning for some individuals posting property was discovered to have nothing to do with creating or preserving a fishery nor even animal rights issues. The stream I mentioned was closed due to the exposure to liability if someone were to be injured on the owner’s property. This likely means that they would not push the issue in most cases but you would be fishing illegaly. Not a good idea to get into this situation. I am not sure how other areas are growing, but at least in N. Georgia growth has not brought larger numbers of trout anglers. Good and bad. Though there is no crowding(save opening day) more support would provide the impetus for Ga. DNR to do more in maintaining the populations. Though good streams exist, many are just put and take. Great responses to the original posters questions. Thanks for the input. Regards, J. Webb Atlanta Mac User Group

Response:

Dan, and others…. I am not a member of the game commission, but do know the policies of the DGIF of Virginia on these matters …. am past president of one of the chapters of Trout Unlimited and have had discussions with the DGIF and some of their board members on this topic…. So it is the policy of DGIF to discontinue stocking on sections of streams as they become posted…..   Will still stock above and below if not posted. The right of peaceful passage on any stream that will support boat traffic (canoes) is always available.   In case of land owner ship, but state stocked waters and the land owner owns both pieces… especially if a Land Grant dating from 1759 from King George you may not fish, anchor, step on the stream bottom or do anything but pass.   In cases where the land is owned but not a land grant you may stay in the stream and fish, but not get on the bank…  We have just had a big case resolved here in Virginia over this issue…..   so if someone tells you this is land grant property….. don’t argue… just say excuse me and move on… Best case is to take a gift to the land owner and ask permission…. works everytime. I don’t have any problem with any landowner posting property that had been stocked in the past and the state then discontinuing stocking… Alan E. Hoover Anglers’ Rest Powhatan, Va        *the trout teach many, lessons*

Response:

My 2 cents on this subject is stop stocking those poor lazy, diseased hatchery trout with their fins chewed off and start using the money to protect and restore habitat.  All streams should be fenced 100′ back from the edge to prevent cattle and sheep  from destroying them.  I had not realized the damage done by allowing animals to graze up to and in the streams until I saw what fencing did for Yellow Creek in Northern California.  The stream changed from a barren shallow overgrazed area to one where the grass and flowers were waist high and the stream became a deep trout laden joy to fish.  I think the fees paid by people who rent this grazing land should be used to construct these fences and failure to maintain them by the people who rent the land should result in termination of their contract and removal of their animals.  Human access should be provided at convenient intervals in the form of  domestic animal proof gates.  This would improve habitat, reduce erosion and improve water quality.  The laws should be changed about land owners owning the stream and the government should begin purchasing a 100′ strip of property along all streams. This would prevent property owners from dumping unwanted substances into our waters and polluting them.  It is time we started treating our streams like the valuable resource they are. Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail

Response:

Well i’ll have to disagree with you there. Private owner ship is what made america I dont want some King owning MY land.  and as for dumping.  I see more people dumping on public water/land than I do private.   I know more private land owners who respect the property than dont respect their land . They pay the bank and pay taxes on THEIR land.  I see more citizens abusing Public land. Id be more worried about your local company than some farmer sick and tired of people trespassing on HIS land. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The laws should be changed about land owners owning the stream and the government should begin purchasing a 100′ strip of property along all streams. This would prevent property owners from dumping unwanted substances into our waters and polluting them. Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail

Response:

Hello all:         I was out brookie fishing in the Shenandoah NP in Virginia this weekend, and ran across something I never really thought about before.  Driving back, I passed by a long stretch of state-stocked trout water.  Not all of it was posted, but over half had clear signs saying NO TRESPASSING, HUNTING OR FISHING.  Just exactly how can property owners do this?  I am simply questioning the legality of restricting access to a publicly funded stocking site.  How are the regulations written to allow for this.  It seems to be a bit odd.  Anyone who can explain this or offer some more information would be appreciated. Dan Johnson

Response:

Well the land owner can restrict people on his/her property. After all they own it, they pay taxes on the land.  Im sure if you were to float through and not get out of the canoe/jon boat youd be fine. Just because a state stocks a river doesnt mean every tom dick harry and jane can trespass on private land.   Or you could go to the county courthouse/county tax record find out who owns the land and ask permission.   My guess is the landowner got sick and tired of haing people tromping over his land, liter his property he payes taxes on, and finally decided to post.   Wildlife is owned by the "state" but the land may not be. My suggestion get a canoe, cover lots more ground. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello all:    I was out brookie fishing in the Shenandoah NP in Virginia this weekend, and ran across something I never really thought about before.  Driving back, I passed by a long stretch of state-stocked trout water.  Not all of it was posted, but over half had clear signs saying NO TRESPASSING, HUNTING OR FISHING.  Just exactly how can property owners do this?  I am simply questioning the legality of restricting access to a publicly funded stocking site.  How are the regulations written to allow for this.  It seems to be a bit odd.  Anyone who can explain this or offer some more information would be appreciated. Dan Johnson

Response:

I was out brookie fishing in the Shenandoah NP in Virginia this weekend, and ran across something I never really thought about before.  Driving back, I passed by a long stretch of state-stocked trout water.  Not all of it was posted, but over half had clear signs saying NO TRESPASSING, HUNTING OR FISHING.  Just exactly how can property owners do this?  I am simply questioning the legality of restricting access to a publicly funded stocking site.  How are the regulations written to allow for this.  It seems to be a bit odd.  Anyone who can explain this or offer some more information would be appreciated.

As I understand it, if a land owner owns on one side, they technically can control to the middle of the stream. If they own BOTH sides, they can control access to the entire stream. You would be trespassing, simply. My question would more likely be, if landowners have these controls(and they should) why is the area stocked by state/federal funds? This is what I would like explained. Regards, J. Webb Atlanta Mac User Group

Response:

Well if parts of the river are controlled by state/federal entities, the river might be flowing out of the NP, stocking would filter down to the landowners.  Somehow i doubt they drive down this chap’s land and stock the fish right there.   Also they might be stocked since access points along the river might be a govt operation. that way one couldfloat down the river catching stocked fish – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As I understand it, if a land owner owns on one side, they technically can control to the middle of the stream. If they own BOTH sides, they can control access to the entire stream. You would be trespassing, simply. My question would more likely be, if landowners have these controls(and they should) why is the area stocked by state/federal funds? This is what I would like explained. Regards, J. Webb Atlanta Mac User Group

Response:

Private property. Just the sound of those two words conjures up day dreams of monster fish that have never seen a fly.  While I may not get too many invitations to fish on private property, I am sure thankful when I do. If all the private property were made public than these dreams would disappear forever. That is how I view it than.    Private property is simply where the caretakers of my dreams live. Than, of course, there is "wilderness".   The word "wilderness" conjures up as much mystery and daydreaming as do the words "private property". And therein lies the secret, I believe, if you are willing to sort it all out. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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Unfortunately there are people who have no respect for someone’s property. They litter, break down fences, open gates and don’t close them, shoot holes in signs, even shoot livestock.  These are the reasons why land owners post their property.  This trend is increasing, all you have to do is look at the  stuff scattered along our highways.   — Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail Ernie Harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all:    I was out brookie fishing in the Shenandoah NP in Virginia this weekend, and ran across something I never really thought about before.  Driving back, I passed by a long stretch of state-stocked trout water.  Not all of it was posted, but over half had clear signs saying NO TRESPASSING, HUNTING OR FISHING.  Just exactly how can property owners do this?  I am simply questioning the legality of restricting access to a publicly funded stocking site.  How are the regulations written to allow for this.  It seems to be a bit odd.  Anyone who can explain this or offer some more information would be appreciated. Dan Johnson

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Question:

Where could I find pictures about waders, wading in water, rubbersuits, divers gasmasks, divers in gasmasks,…

Just when I thought the group was getting a little dull…

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Where could I find pictures about waders, wading in water, rubbersuits, divers gasmasks, divers in gasmasks,…

Response:

Where could I find pictures about waders, wading in water, rubbersuits, divers gasmasks, divers in gasmasks,… Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly,alt.sex.watersports,alt.sex.fetish.wet-and-messy

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Wow! The only thing missing is: alt.rec.fishing.tying.myself.in.a.knot.while.trying.to.cast

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Question:

hello fellow brewers.  I noticed an article in the local paper that cuaght my interest…. Washington AP – Fellowships fund strange, unusual post-graduate projects  ….. "Christian T. De Benedetti of Newberg, Ore., who is studying at Whitman College in Walla Walla, Wash., is going to Senegal, Niger, Britain, Ireland, Belgium and Germany to study beer making.  He has brewed his own beer and worked with barrels and casks in Oregon’s beverage industry.".    Oh man, some guys have all the luck.  Ok minus the air fare and lodging, i wonder how many pints his fellowship will buy?  They don’t indicate exactly how much he was awarded for the fellowship, but another recipient was allowed $16,000 to go fly fishing in exotic locations! Congratulations Christian! tas — Terry A. Stinnett, Ph.D.             Dept of Applied Behavioral Studies         Oklahoma State University       Stillwater, OK 74078-3063      

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I bet that’s a Watson Fellowship. They’re awarded to liberal arts undergraduates who have a dream to pursue some special topic for one year. Many are pretty unusual (both the dreams and the undergraduates, I guess!). The project does not have to be practical. Just passionate. I used to sit on a committee to select the local Watson nominees. Neat job. JEG – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hello fellow brewers.  I noticed an article in the local paper that cuaght my interest…. Washington AP – Fellowships fund strange, unusual post-graduate projects  ….. "Christian T. De Benedetti of Newberg, Ore., who is studying at Whitman College in Walla Walla, Wash., is going to Senegal, Niger, Britain, Ireland, Belgium and Germany to study beer making.  He has brewed his own beer and worked with barrels and casks in Oregon’s beverage industry.".    Oh man, some guys have all the luck.  Ok minus the air fare and lodging, i wonder how many pints his fellowship will buy?  They don’t indicate exactly how much he was awarded for the fellowship, but another recipient was allowed $16,000 to go fly fishing in exotic locations! Congratulations Christian! tas — Terry A. Stinnett, Ph.D.             Dept of Applied Behavioral Studies         Oklahoma State University       Stillwater, OK 74078-3063

– John Gastineau                  "The indoor life is the next best NCSU Physics                     thing to premature burial." Raleigh, NC, USA                 Edward Abbey

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Question:

Wayne Trzyna writes: I don’t know whether C&R kills fish or not, but it sure makes ‘em nervous. Nonetheless, I think that C&R is not as hard on the resource as catch & keep. There are some very productive C&R fisheries located next to major population centers.  (Productive, that is, if one is skilled in outsmarting extremely nervous fish.)  I know of no such heavily fished but productive C&K fisheries (except during the first several hours after the hatchery truck drives away).

Well said. Love those Nervous fish !

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Charles Nahm writes: I can’t believe that 2% of Pat’s catch is killed!  Responsible C&R with artificial bait  should result in much lower kills than that depending on hook type & size and handling technique.  Throwing fish over your shoulder probable doesn’t count as responsible C&R. I saw this technique recently on a fishing show. As a fly fisherman I can’t remember the last fish I had die.   I guess maybe I’ve had a few on large streamers.  Way under 1 in a thousand though.   One thing you may have overlooked and that Pat Heron may have been factoring in Chip, is the fact that not all catch and release deaths are immediate.  If a fish receives serious stress from a prolonged struggle, it may be liable to swim away after you release it and die somewhere else in the lake.  Although it is very admirable on your part to desire or attain to a 99.9% successful release rate.

Pat never claimed that 2% of his fish die with C&R.  Pat’s name was invoked by someone using his catch record as a justification or rationalization for keeping fish. A serious C&R fisherman never prolongs the struggle.  Even +20 inch trout on size 20 flys can be landed in a few minutes by a skilled angler.  Again if you release the fish slowly (I’ve held fish for 5 minutes or more and had them rest in the lee of my boot for another five minutes) in gentle water your kill rate will be much less than 2%.  "Lassen Trout" a trophy pond (stocking genetically altered trophy trout in a couple of ponds) estimates their losses at under 0.2% (These are fish that are in the 22 inch to + 10 pound range).  They’ve been operating for several years so they got pretty good data by now.  They’ve got a large investment in these fish, they have to know how to manage their resource.

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I haven’t followed this whole thread because I was fishing in Montana when it started, but I would like to contribute a thought I proposed in our local TU newsletter a couple years ago. Most people who responded supported the idea, but it hasn’t really led to anything yet. I proposed that people who want to fish blue-ribbon, C&R waters should have to pay a slightly higher license fee, and that the additional revenue from that fee should support hatchery programs. I reason thus: planting more trout in heavily fished streams close to the cities would encourage the "yahoos" (as one poster described them) to fish nearer home to fill their freezers. Those same people would probably not pay the higher fee to go farther to catch fish they couldn’t keep. Now, some might object that those of us who supposedly care more about protecting the "natural" resource shouldn’t have to pay more than those who would simply rape and pillage, especially to support their habit. I don’t disagree, but I think we have to recognize some realities. We’ll never turn all trout streams into blue ribbon streams, and the demand for kill your limit and higher limits will continue to put political pressure on fish and game departments (in some states at least) to resist too much quality fishing as the rest of us define it. I look at it as willingness to pay for a privilege. Any thoughts? gc

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says: I guess that put and take locations help keep the yahoos out of the more restricted locations. The yahoos (your term) do their share of filling their stringers but in many cases this is important because these C&K streams often don’t have the water quality past early summer to support trout.  The yahoos do an efficient job of cleaning out the trout before the hot weather takes over.

Anyone who spends his free time trying to outsmart creatures with an immeasurably small IQ is a yahoo.  ’Guess that includes all of us. — -Wayne Trzyna

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Wayne, YAHOO!!!!!  The bottom line…we all qualify.                                 Scott

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I proposed that people who want to fish blue-ribbon, C&R waters should have to pay a slightly higher license fee, and that the additional revenue from that fee should support hatchery programs. I reason thus: planting more trout in heavily fished streams close to the cities would encourage the "yahoos" (as one poster described them) to fish nearer home to fill their freezers. Those same people would probably not pay the higher fee to go farther to catch fish they couldn’t keep. Now, some might object that those of us who supposedly care more about protecting the "natural" resource shouldn’t have to pay more than those who would simply rape and pillage, especially to support their habit. I don’t disagree, but I think we have to recognize some realities. We’ll never turn all trout streams into blue ribbon streams, and the demand for kill your limit and higher limits will continue to put political pressure on fish and game departments (in some states at least) to resist too much quality fishing as the rest of us define it. I look at it as willingness to pay for a privilege. Any thoughts?

Anyone, can pay an extra fee for the privilege to fish a blue ribbon fee. That doesn’t guarentee that the person is more concerned about protecting the natural resource.  How about requireing that applicant for the special privileges license answer a few questions about preserving.  Sort of a drivers license for fishing.  If someone is going to allowed access to a blue ribbon stream, they should at least know the proper technique for releasing fish so that it may be there another day.   John

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I have just a little bit more to add to the C&R thread. Suppose Pat Heron catches 1000 fish a year, and releases them all like a good guy, and he’s careful so 98% of them survive. That’s 20 dead fish per year. Now I catch well under 100 fish per year (*well*). Why should I feel guilty if I kill 10 of them? I’m not being nearly as hard on the resource as Pat. -Not catching too many fish in New Jersey, and proud of it too! -john — John Danskin                    | Computer Science Graduate Student (609) 258-5386                  | Graphics systems: network graphics & m-media (609) 258-1771 fax              | Escape from Princeton planned 8/94.

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-Not catching too many fish in New Jersey, and proud of it too!

Hence the reason some want to put bag limits on CAR. Though too complex to implement, water temps and flows certainly have an effect on CAR mortality, and should probably determine the limit. Reasonable anglers regulate themselves already. Thomas Gilg

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| | I have just a little bit more to add to the C&R thread. | | Suppose Pat Heron catches 1000 fish a year, and releases them | all like a good guy, and he’s careful so 98% of them survive. | | That’s 20 dead fish per year. | | Now I catch well under 100 fish per year (*well*). Why should | I feel guilty if I kill 10 of them? I’m not being nearly as hard | on the resource as Pat. | | -Not catching too many fish in New Jersey, and proud of it too! | -john John, You are exactly RIGHT.  If keeping 10 fish/year will harm a resource, then no one should probably be fishing there anyway. A guy who golfs at the same golfcourse every day will probably dig it up more in a year than a guy who golfs 4 times a year.   However, the golfing fantatic may also be alot more consciencious about how he treats the grounds because it is his major avocation.  In the case of fishing, the avid angler may be more likely to belong to or contribute to organizations (such as NCWF) which actively seek to protect and improve resources.  I will add that I have not seen any *floaters* from the fish that I have released this year (although some may die later).   I wonder what the statistics are on catch-immediate release vs.  catch – livewell – tournament weigh-in-release. If the tourney boys claim 98-percent, certainly immediate release is somewhat better. I also think that in the summer in the South, 98-percent survival is a bit too generous.  When the water gets into the 90’s there is damn little 02 disolved.  I feel that when you hook a bass in 20ft of water in the summer, they are in cooler slightly more oxygenated water.  Still 02 is low, and the fish quickly aquires a severe oxygen debt during the fight.  When this severly stressed bass is returned to the hottest surface layer, they can have trouble. This problem is compounded if the fish goes into the sizzling hot livewell (B.A.S.S. recommends that you ice down your livewell and use continuous aeration in the summer). After weigh-ins at local tournaments there are often several floaters.  The smart clubs police the release location and pick up the fish who don’t make it so as not to add fuel to the fire of public sentiment against tournament angling. Not catching that many in NC lately either and damn embarrased…                         -Pat. BTW, can anyone recommend a good captain/boat for a tuna/dolphin (aka dorado) charter out of NC?

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says: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (wayne trzyna) writes: | I don’t know whether C&R kills fish or not, but it sure makes ‘em nervous. | Nonetheless, I think that C&R is not as hard on the resource as catch &    . keep | There are some very productive C&R fisheries located next to major         n populatio | centers.  (Productive, that is, if one is skilled in outsmarting extremely | nervous fish.)  I know of no such heavily fished but productive C&K        s fisherie | (except during the first several hours after the hatchery truck drives     . away) | | — | | -Wayne Trzyna Wayne, This sounds like sports fishing at its best.  Why not cut out the middle-man and allow anglers to fish in the back of the DNR truck? I guess that put and take locations help keep the yahoos out of the more restricted locations.                        -Pat.

COUPLE OF THOUGHTS:  In Pennsylvania the DER spends huge amounts managing C&K fisheries.  They work very well and the state has a close-to-religious experience with the opening of trout season (deer season also).  The kids are out of school and many people use a vacation day to skip work (or get a mysterious illness that coincides with opening day). The yahoos (your term) do their share of filling their stringers but in many cases this is important because these C&K streams often don’t have the water quality past early summer to support trout.  The yahoos do an efficient job of cleaning out the trout before the hot weather takes over. I would say (in our area) that this fishery helps to cut down on those inclined to violate the special regs areas.  We have a full gamut of special regs waters including entire streams of C&R, flyfish only, trophy waters etc. The good part of all this:  most of the early season "fishermen" hang up their equipment about the time the good hatches start!!  I’ve also spent some great opening weekends on special regs waters without seeing another person…and catching many more (and better quality) fish than I could in a stocked stream. Around here we tend to use the stocked streams as entertainment.  Always fun to watch the people struggle with each other, fish the kids out of the water after falling in, …you get the idea.  Scott Maitland

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| I don’t know whether C&R kills fish or not, but it sure makes ‘em nervous. | Nonetheless, I think that C&R is not as hard on the resource as catch & keep. | There are some very productive C&R fisheries located next to major population | centers.  (Productive, that is, if one is skilled in outsmarting extremely | nervous fish.)  I know of no such heavily fished but productive C&K fisheries | (except during the first several hours after the hatchery truck drives away). | | — | | -Wayne Trzyna Wayne, This sounds like sports fishing at its best.  Why not cut out the middle-man and allow anglers to fish in the back of the DNR truck? I guess that put and take locations help keep the yahoos out of the more restricted locations.                         -Pat.

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Suppose Pat Heron catches 1000 fish a year, and releases them all like a good guy, and he’s careful so 98% of them survive. That’s 20 dead fish per year. Now I catch well under 100 fish per year (*well*). Why should I feel guilty if I kill 10 of them? I’m not being nearly as hard on the resource as Pat.

I can’t believe that 2% of Pat’s catch is killed!  Responsible C&R with artificial bait  should result in much lower kills than that depending on hook type & size and handling technique.  Throwing fish over your shoulder probable doesn’t count as responsible C&R. I saw this technique recently on a fishing show. As a fly fisherman I can’t remember the last fish I had die.   I guess maybe I’ve had a few on large streamers.  Way under 1 in a thousand though.  

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| | This problem is compounded if the fish goes into the sizzling hot | | livewell (B.A.S.S. recommends that you ice down your livewell and | | use continuous aeration in the summer). | | I wonder about icing down your livewell too. I put a live pickerel into | an ice chest full of water and ice, and it died (convulsions and then nothing) | pretty much instantly. Temperature shocks in either direction can be harmful. | I guess you just have to use common sense when you decide hom much ice to | put in. I just wanted my pickerel to last until dinner time, and he (she it) | lasted just as well dead as he (she it) would have lasted alive. | | -john I agree,  I don’t think that pulling a bass from a 90f weedbed and throwing it into a 40f livewell (later to be released into 92f surface water) will do the bass alot of good. I also have had trouble with chain pickerel in the warmer months.  I have had several die while trying to practice C&R. I have found that they (along with lure of course) can get really tangled in a landing net having a fabric bag.  The little bit of time it takes to untangle them can be long enough for asphixiation. They can often be released much more quickly if landed by hand.  This exercise is not without its own perils.  I still laugh when I remember John sitting in the boat with the front treble of a Mann’s baby 1- stuck through his pants and into his leg, the back treble was in the mouth of a wildly thrashing 26-inch chain pickerel. (This was even more entertaining then the time when John was helping me remove the hook from a 7# channel cat, the cat grabbed his thumb and rolled and sprained his thumb).                         -Pat.

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It would be interesting to rank the relative importance of:      1. Hook selection            - single or treble            - wire diameter            - hook size      2. Playing time  **        - build up of acids            - exhaustion      3. Damage caused during fight            - damage from line strafing fish                 – body  **             – gills            - damage from fish hitting bottom or hard splash-downs            - setting hook to hard on small fish and launching them              airborne    Smolts especially susceptable.      4. Water conditions  *         – temperature            - pollution            - flow  *         – oxygenation      5. Condition of fish            - prespawn, postspawn, other times            - natural ability to handle stress      6. Handling of fish  *         – contact with gills  **        - damage to slime layer  *         – grip pressure resulting in internal damage  **        - time out of water – exposure to air            - damage caused from removing hook      7. Angler recovery period            - technique used for release      8. Post-Angler recovery period            - predators taking advantage of recovering fish  **        - Continued acid buildup and eventual recovery from Single "*" items seem to be touted in most CAR literature, and the "**" items have been called out in reports/studies I’ve seen as major factors. The better CAR studies track the fish for *days* after release, since most CAR mortality happens long after (12 hrs to 2 or 3 days) the angler releases the fish – even the zippy releases often turn fatal because of the continuing chemical buildups *after* CAR. Thomas Gilg

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Treble hooks should be banned, if anything.

I’ll second that!                                 Mark — <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Harris Space Systems            ::                         Melbourne, FL

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| This problem is compounded if the fish goes into the sizzling hot | livewell (B.A.S.S. recommends that you ice down your livewell and | use continuous aeration in the summer). I wonder about icing down your livewell too. I put a live pickerel into an ice chest full of water and ice, and it died (convulsions and then nothing) pretty much instantly. Temperature shocks in either direction can be harmful. I guess you just have to use common sense when you decide hom much ice to put in. I just wanted my pickerel to last until dinner time, and he (she it) lasted just as well dead as he (she it) would have lasted alive. -john

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Though too complex to implement, water temps and flows certainly have an effect on CAR mortality, and should probably determine the limit. Reasonable anglers regulate themselves already.

How fish are handled has more to do with mortality than total number of fish caught and released.  At least, that is my intuition.   Treble hooks should be banned, if anything. — -Wayne Trzyna

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