Question:

Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.  As enforcement by the government is almost nonexistant, that shouldn’t be surprising.  These common practices do constitute theft in anyone’s book.

Obviously, you’ve never spent any time in eastern Montana where a lot of grazing is done on BLM. I can recall many times having the BLM officer who monitors the grazing permits in our area come around to check grass conditions, number of cattle, water hole conditions, whether or not the ranchers are pulling there cows off public ground at the designated time, etc., etc., etc. I also know of ranchers (not many, though) who lost their grazing permits (and they should) for not following the stipulated conditions on their permit. This same scenario (the proper management of grazing permits) happens all across the American West on both National Forest System Lands and Bureau of Land Management lands. You,  sir, are clueless. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

FISHING RELATED POST?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother. christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G. You never met a cattleman, period. —

Response:

Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.

Brian D. Nelson responded: I can recall many times having the BLM officer who monitors the grazing permits … I also know of ranchers (not many, though) who lost their grazing permits … You,  sir, are clueless.

Across the west you’ll find varying compliance with grazing permits. Ditto logging laws and so on. I regularily volunteer to help with multi-agency state/federal fish surveys in eastern Oregon, and it is not uncommon to find cattle grazing well outside their permitted range. In one case we were surveying for bull trout in a remote backcountry area where grazing permits had been eliminated several years before, and yet we still found cattle and signs of regular grazing activity *inside the former and still-fenced allotments*. Some of the agency folks were suppose to followup on that discovery. Thomas Gilg

Response:

eliminated several years before, and yet we still found cattle and signs of regular grazing activity *inside the former and still-fenced allotments*. Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.

I’m sure there are instances of illegal activity such as you described. However, from my experience, I don’t believe that these instances are "commonplace". — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

Even if they are, that just means more money needs to be spent on enforcing the current restrictions, not coming up with more.

And sadly the folks breaking the law are the same ones against any additional government enforcement of the law. Thomas Gilg

Response:

  George– This is Cindy… Brian’s wife writing now.  I cannot believe your comments regarding ranchers/cattlemen ripping off the consumer.  I grew up in Eastern Montana on a small ranch.  My father received 70-90 cents per pound for his calves sold every fall.  This fall the price given to cattlemen for their calves is still 70-75 cents per pound.  Not much of a raise over the past 20 years.

snipped: Just don’t like cattle on my Federal Lands stealing habitat that belongs to the American People’s wildlife inventories.  Cattle destroy much too much and are a financially bankrupting entity that needs to be removed from all our outdoor recreational lands. George Gehrke

Response:

Just don’t like cattle on my Federal Lands stealing habitat that belongs to the American People’s wildlife inventories.  Cattle destroy much too much and are a financially bankrupting entity that needs to be removed from all our outdoor recreational lands.

The American People’s wildlife inventories are not starving nor do they lack a home. So what I hear you saying is that multiple use on our public lands actually equates to ONLY recreation. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush too I suppose. Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G. You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother. christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G. You don’t have to like them, you have that right, but they are not stealing anything. As long as they have grazing permits it is legal.

Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.  As enforcement by the government is almost nonexistant, that shouldn’t be surprising.  These common practices do constitute theft in anyone’s book. Jon

Response:

  When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush too I suppose.

Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G.

Response:

Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past?

Boy, George, are you living in the netherworld if you think ranchers have ANY influence on the retail price of beef. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

What’s to do with FISHING anyways?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Boy, George, are you living in the netherworld if you think ranchers have ANY influence on the retail price of beef. What, are you suggesting that both ends are getting screwed by the large corporations in the middle? How un-American! Jon.

Response:

  When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – too I suppose. Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G. You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother.

christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush too I suppose. Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G. You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother. christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G.

You don’t have to like them, you have that right, but they are not stealing anything. As long as they have grazing permits it is legal.

Response:

I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother?

In this country, you are entitled to your own opinion…. even when it’s an incorrect one. Maybe if you’d actually get out there and meet a real cattleman, you’d change your tune. George– This is Cindy… Brian’s wife writing now.  I cannot believe your comments regarding ranchers/cattlemen ripping off the consumer.  I grew up in Eastern Montana on a small ranch.  My father received 70-90 cents per pound for his calves sold every fall.  This fall the price given to cattlemen for their calves is still 70-75 cents per pound.  Not much of a raise over the past 20 years.  Your accusations against the ranchers holds no water.  You are basically talking out of your rear-end.  If you would do some research and cared about your country, you would see that the family ranches are unable to support their families.  Any help we can give the ranchers in the use of public lands is money put back into our economy and assistance to families who are trying to make a living providing food for your table.  And just in case you are a vegetarian, don’t forget those ranchers who graze cattle on public land can then use the land they own to grow grain and barley for your bread.  Don’t be such a twit. Boy, George… did you ever step in it!! When Cindy reads over my shoulder and kicks me off the keyboard…. well, you get the drift. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

I was listening to a recent NPR program, discussing the problems of depopulation in rural communities back east – sorry, can’t remember the exact state, possibly one of the Dakotas. The program talked about how more people are getting college education and moving away to city jobs, leaving rural life. As a result some farmers are converting their land back to prairie. What little I know of the Eastern states, I’d guess this is some pretty decent farm land being lost.  I also recently read about farm land in Wisconsin being converted back to forest. I know that here in the Southwest, we are enduring one of the worst droughts ever. Phoenix has had just 2.24 inches of rain this year, and may get no more rain until February or March. People are leaving the East and moving out West in huge numbers, and so people & agriculture are competing for many natural resources. So, it doesn’t sound so bad to me, when  "Hard-line environmentalists" are simply helping to maximize the reward to the taxpayers, from the business use of  Federal land. In a free market economy the cost for federal grazing rights should b e"all the market will bear". I know that there is an argument that this policy will reduce domestic beef production & increase imports. Well……perhaps we should consider the most efficient way this country feeds its’self. As a taxpayer and an eater, I want the cheapest (safe) beef I can get. This allows me to spend more of my income on other (US-made) products. It’s a tough life being a farmer. My grandfather was a successful farmer in England. He changed & correctly predicted the trends and made a profit – he didn’t need subsidies. He changed a farm that was widely diversified (sugarbeet, chickens, barley & milk, were just some of the products) to a farm that was specialized – he was one of the first in the area to see the demand for oil seed rape. As a farmer it doesn’t seem fair that a successful way of life is being changed. But all forms of business change over time – including farming.

|         www.sfgate.com        Return to regular view | In the old West, a tense showdown over federal lands | JIM CARLTON, The Wall Street Journal | Monday, November 11, 2002 |

Question:

I am planning a trip to the Outer Banks of NC in August, probably staying on Cedar Island and boating over to the back of the core banks where I would like to do some fly fishing. My fly fishing experience is limited to cold water trout streams. I have no saltwater fly fishing experience, and I have not visited the Outer Banks before. Is my plan reasonable? Is the western side of the national seashore good for fly fishing? Are the waters around Cedar Island good for fly fishing? What species of fish can I expect to catch in this area on flies? What flies are good for use in this area? Thank you, Bob

Response:

I am planning a trip to the Outer Banks of NC in August, probably staying on Cedar Island and boating over to the back of the core banks where I would like to do some fly fishing. My fly fishing experience is limited to cold water trout streams. I have no saltwater fly fishing experience, and I have not visited the Outer Banks before. Is my plan reasonable? Is the western side of the national seashore good for fly fishing? Are the waters around Cedar Island good for fly fishing? What species of fish can I expect to catch in this area on flies? What flies are good for use in this area? Thank you, Bob

FWIW, if I were you I would consider hiring a guide for a day or two. Your trout equipment is going to be unsuitable in the salt due to salt water corrosion problems. In addition it is not uncommon to hook fish that run a long way, and without sufficient backing, you are likely to lose a fly line as well as ruin a reel.  A guide will help you with your casting which probably is going to be in windy conditions. Casting is much different in salt water conditions. I have no monetary connections with guides, but some of the best money I have ever spent was for guides when I was visiting in unfamiliar places and fishing unknown waters. Give ROFF a report when you get back.

Response:

Try contacting Gordon Churchill, a local guide in that area at http://www.geocities.com/capt_gordon/ .  He’s a good fellow and has always provided good information whether you hire him or not.   Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am planning a trip to the Outer Banks of NC in August, probably staying on Cedar Island and boating over to the back of the core banks where I would like to do some fly fishing. My fly fishing experience is limited to cold water trout streams. I have no saltwater fly fishing experience, and I have not visited the Outer Banks before. Is my plan reasonable? Is the western side of the national seashore good for fly fishing? Are the waters around Cedar Island good for fly fishing? What species of fish can I expect to catch in this area on flies? What flies are good for use in this area? Thank you, Bob

Response:

I am planning a trip to the Outer Banks of NC in August, probably staying on Cedar Island and boating over to the back of the core banks where I would like to do some fly fishing. My fly fishing experience is limited to cold water trout streams. I have no saltwater fly fishing experience, and I have not visited the Outer Banks before. Is my plan reasonable? Is the western side of the national seashore good for fly fishing? Are the waters around Cedar Island good for fly fishing? What species of fish can I expect to catch in this area on flies? What flies are good for use in this area? Thank you, Bob

http://www.google.de/search?q=NC+Cedar+Banks+fishing&hl=de&meta= Turned up over five thousand hits.  Must be at least a few with exactly the info you want. TL MC

Response:

Purely out of curiosity, I checked a few, sounds pretty good. http://www.coastalguide.com/packet/fishing01.htm http://www.icw-net.com/fish.htm http://www.outerbanks.com/fishing/fishcal.htm http://www.ufish.com/regions/_nc.htm#COASTAL These were all from the first hit. Wish I was going with you. TL MC

Response:

Thank you everyone for the replies. I E-mailed Capt. Churchill and am going to give serious thought to hiring him. Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Try contacting Gordon Churchill, a local guide in that area at http://www.geocities.com/capt_gordon/ .  He’s a good fellow and has always provided good information whether you hire him or not.   Tom I am planning a trip to the Outer Banks of NC in August, probably staying on Cedar Island and boating over to the back of the core banks where I would like to do some fly fishing. My fly fishing experience is limited to cold water trout streams. I have no saltwater fly fishing experience, and I have not visited the Outer Banks before. Is my plan reasonable? Is the western side of the national seashore good for fly fishing? Are the waters around Cedar Island good for fly fishing? What species of fish can I expect to catch in this area on flies? What flies are good for use in this area? Thank you, Bob

Response:

Question:

wish ‘em luck Peter

An article in The Electronic Telegraph, a London e-paper, has an article on the SAS unit.  Also mentioned was the deployment of Tornados to the "little" military exercise in Oman, with about 20,000 people.  I don’t think most people, on either side, are aware of the size of the wave about to break. Wayne to fish is human….to release Divine!

Response:

An SAS group was active for a brief time in South Yemen a few years ago (when there were *two* Yemens – now there is one).  These folks, like most shadow warriors are seldom seen, heard about only in rumor, and you surely wouldn’t want to wake up with them standing by your bed, if you are on the task list. This will likely be the sharpest edge of that terrible swift sword. Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter Collin: SAS = ? Special Air Service.  Roots from WWII.  It’s the Kippers’ answer to our SEALS, Special Forces, Rangers, etc.  Damn fine bunch even if they are Brits!  <g Dave According to the Washington Post, they’ve been training in the Pakistani mountains for the past five years and before that, with the Pathan warriors against the Soviets.  If they follow standard SAS ops, most will speak the local language – they’ll concentrate on recon, demolition, and ambush; vectoring in a larger force for the capture and covering it on the extraction.  Then they’ll disappear again and we’ll probably never hear about their contribution. If anyone wants to get an inkling of current SAS ops, check out Andy McNab’s "Bravo Two Zero" about the Gulf War.  An 8 man SAS patrol lead by McNab on a Scud busting mission, was dropped inadvertently in the middle of two Iraqi divisions.  Their mission compromised right from the start, they made a 110 mile escape and evasion to the Syrian border.  One made it, three died (two from exposure) and four were captured at the Euphrates River, the border with Syria.  On the way, it was estimated that they took out over 250 Iraqi soldiers. They were started in WWII by David Stirling, operating in the desert, doing recon and blowing up Rommel’s airplanes and ammunition dumps. The old TV series Rat Patrol was, as is usual for Hollywood, stolen from SAS service history.  The series does give some sense of what their WWII desert ops were like.  Hitler gave orders that any captured SAS soldiers were to be executed immediately as they were too dangerous to be left alive. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

The British SAS were used in the Iranian embassy siege in London a few years ago.  They went in from the roof and balcony and killed all, but one, of hostage takers.  The stroy goes that when they realised one of the hostage takers was hiding among the hostages outside the embassy, they went out to drag him inside to kill him.  Hostages pleaded for his life to be spared. He is serving life in jail. They took out IRA members in Gibraltar, leaving the bodies on the road. There was accusations of a "shoot-to-kill" policy. They turn up in many places where justice, law and order fails to take hold.  For example, an IRA man was found not guilty at the Old Bailey (Central Criminal Court, London) despite overwhelming evidence.  A few weeks later, he was shot dead, along with his mates, in a Northern Ireland churchyard, having just robbed a bank. The SAS are based at Hereford.  Its best to say "Sir" to anyone you speak to in Hereford. Bobby Bewl —

I haven’t seen it mentioned on CNN but the Toronto Sun has reported a fire fight between a Taliban force and an SAS recon patrol. Apparently, they’ve been in country for nearly a week, looking for bin Laden. wish ‘em luck Peter Visit The Streamer Page at

http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

and if you think *they’re* tough, wait ’til they get a whiff of the 24th foot…the south wales borderers.

Any relation to the 24th Yorkshire Foot and Mouth? Bobby

Response:

has long been the unwritten rule that one does NOT write about one’s life in the Regiment

Then this article, in yesterday’s Sunday Times, will not have gone down very well: www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/09/23/stiusausa02023.html "Tom Carew, an SAS soldier who helped turn Afghanistan’s fighters into an effective modern guerrilla force, on the daunting task facing allied troops in the air or on the ground.  My life with the mujaheddin." — Phil Jones

Response:

They were started in WWII by David Stirling, operating in the desert, doing recon and blowing up Rommel’s airplanes and ammunition dumps. I was in high school during WW II, but I remember reading about British "Commandos," which I vaguely recall was a word taken from a Dutch word "commando" used during the Boer War. Was "Commandos " another name for the SAS? vince norris

In WWII, the Commandos were Royal Marines whereas the SAS were drawn mostly from the army and RAF.  The Commandos specialized in amphibious raids while the SAS, as the name suggests, used airborne and overland approaches. There is a Royal Marine version of the SAS called the SBS (Special Boat Squadron) that is even more clandestine than the SAS (and if you ask a Marine – tougher.)  Just to confuse matters, the SAS has a Boat Troop that operates similarly to the SBS while the SBS also operates from naval helicopters.  Both the SAS and the SBS originated in WWII. http://business.thisisnorthscotland.co.uk/Nsco/a/r/m/armedforces/mari… http://www.britains-smallwars.com/main/SBS.htm Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

If there is a reasonably accurate account of the SAS in book form or official history, I woiuld like to add a copy to our Museum’s library.  We currently have a little material from W.W.II North African campaigns in the collection including some Desert Rats material.  Our collection includes significant material from England and Commonwealth counries from both World Wars and the Cold War.  We hold the largest ANZAC collection in the US and need to expand input from the British. Wayne to fish is human….to release Divine!!

Response:

They were started in WWII by David Stirling, operating in the desert, doing recon and blowing up Rommel’s airplanes and ammunition dumps.

I was in high school during WW II, but I remember reading about British "Commandos," which I vaguely recall was a word taken from a Dutch word "commando" used during the Boer War. Was "Commandos " another name for the SAS? vince norris

Response:

Thanks for getting back to us.  BTW, there are a number of regiment histories out there – preferences? Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Thanks for getting back to us.  BTW, there are a number of regiment histories out there – preferences?

One that was semi-officially sanctioned by the Regiment several years ago was "Who Dares Wins" by Tony Geraghty.  It is pretty factual, although obviously just a selection of stuff that can be made public.  Of interest is the fact that Tony Geraghty, an ex-Territorial (Reserve) paratrooper and journalist wrote a book about Northern Ireland only a couple of years ago and got himself arrested for spilling a few too many beans.  His earlier book mentioned above, is pretty accurate up to the Gulf War. There are numerous others, but most are either glamourizing tales of bravado written with an eye to the dollars, or semi-political works that try to make the authors’ pet point. The more accurate books are restricted circulation ones within the SAS Association or Special Forces Club library. There is one by Ken Connor, a long-time member of the Regiment, called "Ghost" I think from memory – it’s not too bad, but he does push his own barrow a fair bit, and has a slightly jaundiced view of things.  Some say he was in there too long.  I had just under 6 years in, and I saw enough to make me appreciate all the good things in life, and also to recognize what’s REALLY important in life as opposed to what society and peer- pressure try to tell us is important.  That’s why I enjoy fly-fishing! (Nifty, cunning return to topic there – heheh — NightStalker Email addy is nightstalker87 at hot(you know).com

Response:

British special forces (Special Air Service) – originated during WW II as a raiding force to fight Rommel’s forces in Africa, and obviously it stuck together.  The man who started it (Stirling) was knighted about 10 years ago I believe.

Just for the record, he was knighted back in the 1980s, and he died in 1991, just a few months before the Regiment’s jubilee (50th) birthday celebrations, which I attended and was marked by a touch of sadness that the founder had not quite made it. — NightStalker Email addy is nightstalker87 at hot(you know).com

Response:

I’m aware that McNab’s book hasn’t received the best of reviews from his former associates, though to the best of my knowledge, the 250 number came from other sources, not McNab.  Having had a former SAS Flt. Lt. as a training officer, I know about their reticence regarding any sort of publicity.  So I wonder whether the regiment’s dislike of the book comes from perceived inaccuracies in the story or the fact that McNab has profited from matters that should not have been made public.

Both.  The inaccuracies are real and grossly exaggerated.  It’s interesting that no mention of these huge body counts was made in the video-taped debriefings of both ‘McNab’ or ‘Ryan’.  And the other reason for the dislike of the books is that has long been the unwritten rule that one does NOT write about one’s life in the Regiment.  It’s for this reason that the two writers mentioned are now persona non grata in the Regiment and its Association.  Mind you – I’m sure they’re crying all the way to the bank…. (Cultural information note to the U.S. contingent in the ROFFian Universe.)  Over the past few decades the British and especially the Canadians have developed the bad habit of viciously tearing down their heros as soon as they’ve elevated them.  While it’s always wise to view claims to heroism with a clear eye, the counter-claims from these sources should be viewed, at the very least, the same way.

Just to balance the accounts a bit – let me just say that several ex- members of the Regiment HAVE written books that are held in much higher esteem than the ‘McNab’ and ‘Ryan’ books, but these are (a) factual, (b) usually limited distribution through the Association, and (c) not glorifying or exaggerating any deeds or misdeeds. Knocking down heroes is a peculiar sport, but in the opinion of most members and ex-members of the Regiment, neither ‘McNab’ or ‘Ryan’ were heroes – they just did a bloody good E + E (escape and evasion) effort, then tried to cash in on this stuffed up patrol and make ‘heroes’ out of themselves. — NightStalker Email addy is nightstalker87 at hot(you know).com

Response:

As a (shhh!) ex-member of the said regiment, back in the 60’s, allow me, as a long-time lurker here, to say a couple of words.  Andy ‘McNab’’s book is hugely exaggerated, especially about the number of Iraquis they allegedly ‘took out’ on the patrol which was a total stuff-up from day one.  There is another book about the same patrol, called "The One That Got Away" by Chris ‘Ryan’ (all pseudonyms) that is even more exaggerated and self-grandising. Now I’ll just fade silently back into "lurker-dom"

I’m aware that McNab’s book hasn’t received the best of reviews from his former associates, though to the best of my knowledge, the 250 number came from other sources, not McNab.  Having had a former SAS Flt. Lt. as a training officer, I know about their reticence regarding any sort of publicity.  So I wonder whether the regiment’s dislike of the book comes from perceived inaccuracies in the story or the fact that McNab has profited from matters that should not have been made public. (Cultural information note to the U.S. contingent in the ROFFian Universe.)  Over the past few decades the British and especially the Canadians have developed the bad habit of viciously tearing down their heros as soon as they’ve elevated them.  While it’s always wise to view claims to heroism with a clear eye, the counter-claims from these sources should be viewed, at the very least, the same way. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

SAS = ?

British special forces (Special Air Service) – originated during WW II as a raiding force to fight Rommel’s forces in Africa, and obviously it stuck together.  The man who started it (Stirling) was knighted about 10 years ago I believe. By the way, at one point Stirling was a POW in Colditz Castle, which was the inspiration for the computer game that "started it all" (yes, a shooter game that preceded Doom) – Castle Wolfenstein.  (There was also a board game called "Escape From Colditz".)  A later version of the computer game was "Spear of Destiny", where a commando was sent in to retrieve the spear that pierced the side of Christ, which was supposedly being kept by Himmler in the belief that Nazi armies would be invincible while it was in their possession (in keeping with his occult leanings.)  "Return to Castle Wolfenstein" is due out this fall, for more Nazi-killing goodness.  Boy is this OT.

Response:

An SAS group was active for a brief time in South Yemen a few years ago (when there were *two* Yemens – now there is one).  These folks, like most shadow warriors are seldom seen, heard about only in rumor, and you surely wouldn’t want to wake up with them standing by your bed, if you are on the task list. This will likely be the sharpest edge of that terrible swift sword. Tom

I was involved in that little lot.  It was in the Radfan mountains in the mid-60s, (1966 to be exact) the mountain range between what was then South Yemen and the Protectorate of Aden, as the Brits were withdrawing from Aden, we were basically covering their collective backsides.  The terrain there was like the flipside of the moon, about 50degrees Celsius by day, and sub-zero at night, with rocks underfoot that could cut through a pair of tough desert boots in no time. Special Air Service.  Roots from WWII.  It’s the Kippers’ answer to our SEALS, Special Forces, Rangers, etc.  Damn fine bunch even if they are Brits!  <g Dave

One small difference of opinion if I may – the SEALs were the USA’s answer to the SAS, not the other way around  The whole idea of Special FOrces, where small teams of highly-trained individuals could wreak more havoc than a company of grunts, originated in the fertile minds of David Stirling, his brother Bill Stirling, Paddy Maine, Jock Lewis, and a few others in 1942. According to the Washington Post, they’ve been training in the Pakistani mountains for the past five years and before that, with the Pathan warriors against the Soviets.  If they follow standard SAS ops, most will speak the local language – they’ll concentrate on recon, demolition, and ambush; vectoring in a larger force for the capture and covering it on the extraction.  Then they’ll disappear again and we’ll probably never hear about their contribution.

22SAS has had a very long involvement in the middle east, and particularly in desert terrain, including Aden as above, Oman (southern area called Dhofar) etc etc, and the regiment was actually started in the northern deserts of Africa in 1942.  They are long-time masters of ‘low- intensity’ campaigns, fighting guerilla tactics and winning hearts and minds as well as using all sorts of means to stay undetected deep behind enemy lines and across borders.  They are primarily a recon and special ops outfit rather than front-line engagement troops. If anyone wants to get an inkling of current SAS ops, check out Andy McNab’s "Bravo Two Zero" about the Gulf War.  An 8 man SAS patrol lead by McNab on a Scud busting mission, was dropped inadvertently in the middle of two Iraqi divisions.  Their mission compromised right from the start, they made a 110 mile escape and evasion to the Syrian border.  One made it, three died (two from exposure) and four were captured at the Euphrates River, the border with Syria.  On the way, it was estimated that they took out over 250 Iraqi soldiers. They were started in WWII by David Stirling, operating in the desert, doing recon and blowing up Rommel’s airplanes and ammunition dumps. The old TV series Rat Patrol was, as is usual for Hollywood, stolen from SAS service history.  The series does give some sense of what

As a (shhh!) ex-member of the said regiment, back in the 60’s, allow me, as a long-time lurker here, to say a couple of words.  Andy ‘McNab’’s book is hugely exaggerated, especially about the number of Iraquis they allegedly ‘took out’ on the patrol which was a total stuff-up from day one.  There is another book about the same patrol, called "The One That Got Away" by Chris ‘Ryan’ (all pseudonyms) that is even more exaggerated and self-grandising. Now I’ll just fade silently back into "lurker-dom" — NightStalker Email addy is nightstalker87 at hot(you know).com

Response:

Ditto Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – having read down to bobby’s post…..I’m impressed… john

Response:

having read down to bobby’s post…..I’m impressed… john

Response:

  The series does give some sense of what their WWII desert ops were like.  Hitler gave orders that any captured SAS soldiers were to be executed immediately as they were too dangerous to be left alive. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

        up the empire, peetah!         thanks to the brits from         their friend in the old north state         wayno         and if you think *they’re* tough, wait ’til they get a whiff of the 24th foot…the south wales borderers.

Response:

Peter Collin: SAS = ? Special Air Service.  Roots from WWII.  It’s the Kippers’ answer to our SEALS, Special Forces, Rangers, etc.  Damn fine bunch even if they are Brits!  <g Dave

According to the Washington Post, they’ve been training in the Pakistani mountains for the past five years and before that, with the Pathan warriors against the Soviets.  If they follow standard SAS ops, most will speak the local language – they’ll concentrate on recon, demolition, and ambush; vectoring in a larger force for the capture and covering it on the extraction.  Then they’ll disappear again and we’ll probably never hear about their contribution. If anyone wants to get an inkling of current SAS ops, check out Andy McNab’s "Bravo Two Zero" about the Gulf War.  An 8 man SAS patrol lead by McNab on a Scud busting mission, was dropped inadvertently in the middle of two Iraqi divisions.  Their mission compromised right from the start, they made a 110 mile escape and evasion to the Syrian border.  One made it, three died (two from exposure) and four were captured at the Euphrates River, the border with Syria.  On the way, it was estimated that they took out over 250 Iraqi soldiers. They were started in WWII by David Stirling, operating in the desert, doing recon and blowing up Rommel’s airplanes and ammunition dumps. The old TV series Rat Patrol was, as is usual for Hollywood, stolen from SAS service history.  The series does give some sense of what their WWII desert ops were like.  Hitler gave orders that any captured SAS soldiers were to be executed immediately as they were too dangerous to be left alive. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

SAS = ?

Special Air Service. — Gary (Email address is munged with x’s)

Response:

Peter Collin: SAS = ?

Special Air Service.  Roots from WWII.  It’s the Kippers’ answer to our SEALS, Special Forces, Rangers, etc.  Damn fine bunch even if they are Brits!  <g Dave

Response:

I haven’t seen it mentioned on CNN but the Toronto Sun has reported a fire fight between a Taliban force and an SAS recon patrol. Apparently, they’ve been in country for nearly a week, looking for bin Laden. wish ‘em luck Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Peter Charles: I haven’t seen it mentioned on CNN but the Toronto Sun has reported a fire fight between a Taliban force and an SAS recon patrol. Apparently, they’ve been in country for nearly a week, looking for bin Laden. wish ‘em luck

Damn straight, Peter!  Hope they get him.  Betcha you’re poppin’ some buttons! <g Dave

Response:

SAS = ?

Response:

aka "m-14" …special forces for Britain i believe… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – SAS = ?

Response:

Question:

Anybody here have experiance with the (made in Argentina) White River flyreels sold by Bass Proshops?  I’m interested in the largest model with disc drag and 300 yard backing capacity for some saltwater flyfishing on a budget.  They retail for $59.99.  Thanks for the input. Spy in Hawaii

Response:

Anybody here have experiance with the (made in Argentina) White River flyreels sold by Bass Proshops?  I’m interested in the largest model with disc drag and 300 yard backing capacity for some saltwater flyfishing on a budget.  They retail for $59.99.  Thanks for the input. Spy in Hawaii

Spy, I hope for your sake that you never hook a "big" fish on any $59.99 "Saltwater reel". I suspect it will melt on your rod like m&m’s in your mouth. However, I admit I’m not familiar with the brand, so I could be completely wrong….been there a few times. I’d shop around. You always get what you pay for. Walt —          The Blue Ridge Book Gallery      P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS/HOME.HTM

Response:

Question:

I am going to Lake Tahoe for a week in one week. Does anyone know anything about the fishing conditions this time of year? Is there any stream fishing in the vicinity in Late October?

Response:

Depends which end of the lake you are going to.  It’s been in the teen’s at night, so will be cold in the morning.  At North Shore (Tahoe City) there is the Truckee, and out of south Shore there are some streams, and the East Carson over the hill hwy 88.  Contact Trout Creek Fly’s in South Shore for up to date info on stream fishing.  The lake fishing will be good for Mackinaws, there are some charter boats available.  Kokanee will be heading up the streams.  Be sure to go to the stream chamber at Taylor Creek state park (near South Shore) to see the run.  Have an underwater viewing window. Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am going to Lake Tahoe for a week in one week. Does anyone know anything about the fishing conditions this time of year? Is there any stream fishing in the vicinity in Late October?

Response:

Question:

I picked up a habit from other hobby, jogging:  I never go out in the woods without pepper spray.  The stuff sold under the name "Halt" is made for dogs. Any dog that is not on a leash and within range of the spray is fair game.  A

Response:

So people like me who carry a sidearm can have a target if the fishing gets slow (OR THE FISH GET PUT DOWN!) Bob _____ Robert?  I can’t believe you said this or that you really mean it. sigh.

Absolutely tongue-in-cheek, Mr. G.!  I love dogs.  (If prepared properly…) No, really… I love dogs and cats.  My last dog was a constant companion, except for fly fishing trips.  He did get to go to the streams on walks though, and LOVED the water.  My favorite behavior of his was "dipping for smelt."  When the smelt would run up the tributaries of Lake George, NY, I’d take old Elmo to a nearby stream.  He’d wade in, trap one of the thousands of smelt against the bottom with his paw, stick his head under to grab it, then wade out of the stream to eat it.  Then back in, etc. etc.  I could never figure out why he wouldn’t eat it while in the stream…. He was known to jump out of the boat into the water after a jumping smallmouth or landlocked salmon.  He also was caught several times in the process of stealing fish from other ice fishermen in the winter.   His  bear ancestry came out in his appetite for fish.  He’d empty a minnow bucket in no time if you left the lid off.  (Bobbing for snacks). I miss him as much as any person I ever knew. Bob Scott

Response:

I have seen some very well behaved dogs at the waterside but you should only take your dog if you can guarantee it’s behaviour.

I have a 5 month old black labrador(Gwilym)…….I’ll say no more! He’s bloody gorgeous! — Bill

Response:

Bill, Labradors are the most loving and gentle dog I have ever seen.  They are quick learners and I am certain you can train it so it will be no trouble to any one on the stream.  Be careful around West Coast Salmon Rivers when the Salmon are Spawning.  A dog that eats dead salmon will get poisoned and die from it.  The vet has medication for this.  Once he has been Salmoned and recovers it will not bother him again. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen some very well behaved dogs at the waterside but you should only take your dog if you can guarantee it’s behaviour. I have a 5 month old black labrador(Gwilym)…….I’ll say no more! He’s bloody gorgeous! — Bill

Response:

Bill I am sure that your pup will be the very model of Welsh decorum — Regards, Peter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen some very well behaved dogs at the waterside but you should only take your dog if you can guarantee it’s behaviour. I have a 5 month old black labrador(Gwilym)…….I’ll say no more! He’s bloody gorgeous! — Bill

Response:

I am sure that your pup will be the very model of Welsh decorum

He’s at the stage when he’s teething and wants to mouth everything. People tell me this will pass, but will my hands and arm last that long? Come to think of it will my kitchen last that long?…:-) But he’s bloody gorgeous! — Bill

Response:

Went to local outdoors show recently and some idiot had a puppy about 6 mos. old on a leash walking around for everybody to trip on.  STUPID and VERY INCONSIDERATE OF OTHERS! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So people like me who carry a sidearm can have a target if the fishing gets slow (OR THE FISH GET PUT DOWN!) Bob

Response:

My friend Karen invited me on her family’s annual steelhead trip to the Klamath. Her dad had gone with his dad too, a fifty year tradition. I had never caught an adult steely on the fly in years of trying, never really knew what I was doing; this was my chance. She brought her Cocker Spaniel, Tio. It managed to keep up with us scrambling over boulders and cliffs with his short little legs, swimming valiantly where we’d wade across. He never barked, and kept us laughing all week after he rolled around in the fireside embers staying warm in the drizzle, singeing his tan coat with spots of brown burn and black charcoal. Karen and I were fishing a nice looking riffle where her dad had caught one the day before when Tio started a long low plaintive howl. By the end of the howl Karen was into a good fish. A few minutes later Tio howled again and I was into my first steelhead. Karen dunked herself landing it. There can never be payback for these kind of gifts, but I made a painting of it for her birthday and inscribed it "Howl me up a Steelhead Tio." Tio is blind now and hasn’t made the trip the last couple of years. We never know anymore when the fish will bite. Mark Vinsel www.vinsel.com

Response:

Piere writes: <sniped nothing was biting until it was black and real late and the damn dog ran out of energy. i hope that others don’t run into this but if you do let me know will start a club to ban animals from the rivers.! Pierre Some of us have the sense to teach our dogs the *down* and *stay*.  My Shepard will lie quietly on the bank until given permission to roam.  That may be a minute or it may be 2 hours, it’s up to me.  A good dog is one of God’s finest gifts. Patrick

  ______ Amen

Response:

Maybe if they do, the Western Ettiquite thing won’t kick in…. I mean, the dogs will chase off anyone within 100 feet (or 200 feet on the water, in the case of Lewellyns) and wiith the exception of George’s dogs..most of em can’t fish, so you’ll have no competition….and from some of the assinine posts here lately (this one included…=8^)) I’d bet the majority of folks here couldn’t get another HUMAN to fish with them!!! HAR HAR HAR…..

Response:

(lots of stuff previously posted deleted here) .  Do you own a dog by the way?

        well, george, now that you ask:  i don’t presently own a dog. i have often heard it said around piedmont n.c. that a man will be lucky with his women or lucky with his dogs, but never lucky with both.  thank god, i number myself among the former.  i have only owned two dogs.  the first, rachel, supposedly a high dollar english setter, ate two bobwhites i killed the first day i hunted her, and began to choke.  she crawled backwards (no lie) all the way back to the house, and damn near died.  i gave her away that weekend.  the next dog was a brittany named "rascal"; again, i was assured of the high quality breeding behind the noble animal.  papers, the whole nine yards, as we say in rowan county.  what i ended up with was a manic/depressive maddog that lived only to attack my two toddlers.  to this day they refuse to watch "lassie come home".  so, i guess i fall on the side of the anti-fishing dog argument.  anyway, thanks for all the good floating you have given my royal wulffs.         a. wayne harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have five Llewellyn Setters.  You should come fish with us sometime. Keep smiling.

Response:

IF…the dog does not bark at the slightest provocation….does not urinate on the tires of my Jeep….does not continually have to be watched because he’s wandered down to where I’m fishing and in the way of my backcast…then, perhaps, the dog is okay.  But, in fairness, there are some people that should be barred from the rivers along with the untrained dog. Barry P.S.  As an aside….something to be really careful about is allowing your dog to wander freely in a heavily fished area…where he may find the remains of a cleaned fish and eat it.  I’ve been told that such a lunch can poison a dog.  Maybe the biology experts in the Group can verify this one way or the other. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hehehe…my dog loves to fish! and I love having him along…..if someone "downstream" is bothered by this then the "downstream" person is fishing to close to me and should feel lucky to be in our presence.     I am writing this in hopes that the idiot who was fishing down the river from me will read it and remember that dogs and fish do not MIX!! [deleted] Unless’en ya gotchersef a gud fishin’ dog Pierre… …but perhaps you will not understand this… Hmmm…. Go watch the adventures of Yellow Dog.  Not Old Yeller….Yellow Dog, and chime back in afterwards. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

Response:

     I am writing this in hopes that the idiot who was fishing down the river from me will read it and remember that dogs and fish do not MIX!! This person was whistling and calling for his damn mutt every time he disappeared from view ..he was probably afraid that the thing would get killed by another fisherman. Between running and diving into the water nothing was biting until it was black and real late and the damn dog ran out of energy. i hope that others don’t run into this but if you do let me know will start a club to ban animals from the rivers.! Pierre

Response:

    I am writing this in hopes that the idiot who was fishing down the river from me will read it and remember that dogs and fish do not MIX!!

[deleted] Unless’en ya gotchersef a gud fishin’ dog Pierre… …but perhaps you will not understand this… Hmmm…. Go watch the adventures of Yellow Dog.  Not Old Yeller….Yellow Dog, and chime back in afterwards. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

Response:

hehehe…my dog loves to fish! and I love having him along…..if someone "downstream" is bothered by this then the "downstream" person is fishing to close to me and should feel lucky to be in our presence. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     I am writing this in hopes that the idiot who was fishing down the river from me will read it and remember that dogs and fish do not MIX!! [deleted] Unless’en ya gotchersef a gud fishin’ dog Pierre… …but perhaps you will not understand this… Hmmm…. Go watch the adventures of Yellow Dog.  Not Old Yeller….Yellow Dog, and chime back in afterwards. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

Response:

So people like me who carry a sidearm can have a target if the fishing gets slow (OR THE FISH GET PUT DOWN!) Bob

Response:

i hope that others don’t run into this but if you do let me know will start a club to ban animals from the rivers.! Pierre

Pierre,   Don’t judge all dogowners by one bad experience. Generally, I have found a good dog to be a better partner on the stream than most of the humans available…..when we ban animals from our rivers, do we just stick to the banks on back? Also, where are we going to put all the deer and bears and all? You may want to re-think this idea.                                                 Tom Littleton

Response:

i hope that others don’t run into this but if you do let me know will start a club to ban animals from the rivers.! Pierre

Please don’t make sweeping generalizations, a well trained dog can be a wonderful fishing companion.  If anything, at least attack the root of the problem.  Start a club that bans clueless humans (who bring untrained and unleashed dogs fishing) from the rivers. Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Response:

Piere writes:

<sniped nothing was biting until it was black and real late and the damn dog ran out of energy. i hope that others don’t run into this but if you do let me know will start a club to ban animals from the rivers.! Pierre

Some of us have the sense to teach our dogs the *down* and *stay*.  My Shepard will lie quietly on the bank until given permission to roam.  That may be a minute or it may be 2 hours, it’s up to me.  A good dog is one of God’s finest gifts. Patrick

Response:

I fished next to someone whose dog was an absolute pain in the ass. It stood on my line when casting, got in the way every time I hooked a fish and the last straw was that it jumped into the water on top of a fish I was about to net, fish and fly departed leaving an empty net, bare leader and livid ptk!! I have seen some very well behaved dogs at the waterside but you should only take your dog if you can guarantee it’s behaviour. — Regards, Peter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     I am writing this in hopes that the idiot who was fishing down the river from me will read it and remember that dogs and fish do not MIX!! This person was whistling and calling for his damn mutt every time he disappeared from view ..he was probably afraid that the thing would get killed by another fisherman. Between running and diving into the water nothing was biting until it was black and real late and the damn dog ran out of energy. i hope that others don’t run into this but if you do let me know will start a club to ban animals from the rivers.! Pierre

Response:

It’s the same with dogs as it is with people, it only takes a few bad ones to give them all a bad name. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i hope that others don’t run into this but if you do let me know will start a club to ban animals from the rivers.! Pierre Please don’t make sweeping generalizations, a well trained dog can be a wonderful fishing companion.  If anything, at least attack the root of the problem.  Start a club that bans clueless humans (who bring untrained and unleashed dogs fishing) from the rivers. Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Response:

okay I understand that I have raised a hornets nest here and my intention was to get things off my chest..I have two golden retrievers and they will come with me when I go fishing but they STAY when I go and move when I move.. All I wanted to make mention of was that a good dog and ao good owner go together .. I am not a dog hater in any way but sheesh think of others.. I was at the river and the hole first!!! If yoiu have a good hole be considerate Pierre

Response:

okay I understand that I have raised a hornets nest here and my intention was to get things off my chest..I have two golden retrievers

[deleted] Golden Retrievers should make EXCELLENT fishing dogs in the sierras. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

Response:

So people like me who carry a sidearm can have a target if the fishing gets slow (OR THE FISH GET PUT DOWN!) Bob

_____ Robert?  I can’t believe you said this or that you really mean it. sigh.

Response:

     I am writing this in hopes that the idiot who was fishing down the river from me will read it and remember that dogs and fish do not MIX!! This person was whistling and calling for his damn mutt every time he disappeared from view ..he was probably afraid that the thing would get killed by another fisherman. Between running and diving into the water nothing was biting until it was black and real late and the damn dog ran out of energy. i hope that others don’t run into this but if you do let me know will start a club to ban animals from the rivers.! Pierre

_____ Well gee, Pierre.  My dogs take me fishing all the time.  One (Bogey) will pick up my fly rod and try and cast it by slowly shaking his head from side to side AFTER he drags it to the river’s edge (believe it or not). Moral?  Don’t set your fly rod down.  It seems you ran into a dog that was having more fun than an otter.   I always move on when I run into a river otter.  They will put fish down every time, the same as this guy  did to me one day on the San Juan, who waded  right through my pool.  I knew I had a problem as soon as I saw he was wearing a base ball hat on backwards!  I do believe he bought a hat that didn’t come with instructions.  Then again, if you had been attacked by a rabid cougar or black bear, you would have had that dog to fake them out while you ran for your bloody life.  Naturally, this is something that triggers predators.  Something that runs.  (Or bitches a lot). Well, it was sad to hear how upset  you were  with this "other fellah’s dog."  Then again, I hate kids that throw rocks in the water, or the shrill sound of a woman screaming at her husband to get out of the river and come on in and EAT!  Or, you could have been distracted by a kayaker, a inner tuber high on grass, or worse yet (and God forbid) a game warden. Yah, life is tough.  City life is tough.  Dogs that don’t get out much is tough on them too.  I’m sure the owner of the dog was distracted by catching so many fish he failed to notice a problem existed.  Do you own a dog by the way? I have five Llewellyn Setters.  You should come fish with us sometime. Keep smiling.

Response:

Question:

I’ve had good success with both a wicker creel (with moss or damp grass) and an ‘ArtiCreel’ (soaked canvas bag). The canvas bag is easier to carry around and probably doesn’t look as pretentious as the wicker so it is probably safer to use<g. Charlie…

Response:

I’ve had good success with both a wicker creel (with moss or damp grass) and an ‘ArtiCreel’ (soaked canvas bag). The canvas bag is easier to carry around and probably doesn’t look as pretentious as the wicker so it is probably safer to use<g. Charlie…

It’s really a bummer that the ff industry (ok, Orvis) has made something like a wicker creel pretentious. I always fished with an old wicker creel my grandpa gave me when I was a lad, and would like to use one on any occasional trips I might want to take a couple, but I would feel like a fool carrying one these days. I should be able to say "screw it, I like ‘em, I grew up with ‘em, and I’m using one," but I guess I would hate to give people the wrong idea. Fish on, Allen

Response:

Ralph Heidecke writes: When I kill a fish or two to take home I do the following to keep it fresh: (snip) Share other tips you have please!

To me, a canvas creel is indispensible.  Any fish you decide to eat are kept fresh and cool.  Great beer keeper also, as George mentioned earlier.  When you’re not using it for either, it’s a convenient place to stow litter left by others.   Best of all, the sight of a well-used creel over your shoulder keeps away those pesky Orvis Grand Cherokee types, who refer to all the insects by their Latin names.  ;^) CQ

Response:

I should be able to say "screw it, I like ‘em, I grew up with ‘em, and I’m using one," but I guess I would hate to give people the wrong idea.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I still use mine on occasion, depends where I am fishing and how much I care about people think that day<g. Course I usually carry a cloth diaper to use as a rag (they’re great for cleaning fly lines and cameras, etc) so I suppose some folks may think I’m wierd anyway. Charlie…

Response:

[rip !] I do no use stringers as in my experience trout kokanee etc will die with in a quarter hour or so thus there is little gained from their

Yeah, those kokes are sure prissy fish….pretty damned good smoked though. A metal clasp stringer, I feel, is not all that cruel, the fish seem pretty calm generally and an old brown trout will stay alive and fresh all day, catfish and other sturdy species could be released after all day on a stringer and survive.  Stringers are indeed best suited for lake use.  I have also caught and stringered brookies while backpacking that stay alive a long, long time. Whatcha do, see, is you go down, take one of the stringer, clean it and cut off its head.  Then you can insert a ‘weenie’ stick and roast them with salt and pepper…nothing is better in this world… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

It’s really a bummer that the ff industry (ok, Orvis) has made something like a wicker creel pretentious. I always fished with an old wicker creel my grandpa gave me when I was a lad, and would like to use one on any occasional trips I might want to take a couple, but I would feel like a fool carrying one these days.

Jeez, I sometimes lash a sawed-off, perforated gallon milk jug to my fannypack, and I’ve never felt dumb about it once…er…well, the point is, go ahead and use the things if you like ‘em.  I won’t laugh, and I have to wonder how many people *would* really care.  What if they did, anyway?   Dave DeLacey – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fish on, Allen

Response:

Moe Skeeter writes: A metal clasp stringer, I feel, is not all that cruel, the fish seem pretty calm generally and an old brown trout will stay alive and fresh all day, catfish and other sturdy species could be released after all day on a stringer and survive.  Stringers are indeed best suited for lake use.  I have also caught and stringered brookies while backpacking that stay alive a long, long time.

That’s true, as long as you’re using it right. If you’re using a stringer to keep your catch fresh, forget the common method of stringing ‘em through the gills.  The fish will stay alive a lot longer if you string it through the thin part of the lower jaw (near the center). I don’t use a stringer anymore, but when I did, stringing the fish through the jaw worked much, much better.  A gill-strung trout usually dies so fast that you might as well knock it on the head in the first place.  (catfish, OTOH, are damn near unkillable, strung through the gills or not.) CQ

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s really a bummer that the ff industry (ok, Orvis) has made something like a wicker creel pretentious. I always fished with an old wicker creel my grandpa gave me when I was a lad, and would like to use one on any occasional trips I might want to take a couple, but I would feel like a fool carrying one these days. Jeez, I sometimes lash a sawed-off, perforated gallon milk jug to my fannypack, and I’ve never felt dumb about it once…er…well, the point is, go ahead and use the things if you like ‘em.  I won’t laugh, and I have to wonder how many people *would* really care.  What if they did, anyway? Dave DeLacey

Yeah, like I said in the clipped part of my original post, I know it’s a bit stupid to give much thought to that. I wouldn’t be embarassed to be seen anywhere with the milk jug – at least the people I meet on the stream wouldn’t be trying to sell me mutual funds. I keep hoping that this whole fishing craze will die out by the time I’m an old man and I can strap on my wicker creel and fish alone… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fish on, Allen

Response:

When I kill a fish or two to take home I do the following to keep it fresh: 1) stream fishing; place the fish in a plastic bag and either    cache the fish either in the sand or gravel of the bank or

I store the fish in a wet burlap sack out of the sun and clean ASAP. 2) float tube or boat:

Never kept one from a float tube trip!  See below for boat. I do no use stringers as in my experience trout kokanee etc will die with in a quarter hour or so thus there is little gained from their use: Share other tips you have please!

We used a stringer only once or twice for Kokanee. Very poor!  Instead we opted for a cage with chain attached with a little door.  This tied off to one of the cleats at the rear of the boat and could be lifted out of the water to insert another fish.  A few die, but several survive unless badly injured.  This is the best we could come up with to keep them fresh. -Burton — L. Burton Hawley         2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, OR

Response:

When I kill a fish or two to take home I do the following to keep it fresh: 1) stream fishing; place the fish in a plastic bag and either    cache the fish either in the sand or gravel of the bank or    gather some grass etc and place the fish amongst this in my    pack. 2) float tube or boat:    in my tube I put the fish in a side pocket of the tube and keep    the fabric wet; evaporation will keep it cool and fresh    in a boat I do much the same; keep the fish out of the sun and keep     it wet; ie cover with a wet cloth; again evaporation will keep it    very cool I do no use stringers as in my experience trout kokanee etc will die with in a quarter hour or so thus there is little gained from their use: the deterioration of the flesh will actually be quicker even if the air is warmer than the water because the transfer of heat from water to fish is much easier than from water to air. In all cases evaporation uses heat hence keeping a fish out of water but moist to encourage evaporation will help keep the fish cool and  fresh. It is advisable to clean a fish as soon as possible; keep the fish out of direct sun and put the fish on ice or refridgerate as soon as possible. Share other tips you have please! Ralph H  

Response:

Question:

I have gone up to the Sault for about 4 years now using standard spinning gear sn spoons for the Pink Salmon.  I have to say, despite seeing lots of fish, the "cast per fish" ratio is outrageous.  We would catch 1-2 each for about 8 hours of fishing.  I have heard that fly fishing for them is MUCH better, and I’m looking for advice on where and how to catch them.  I live in Michigan.  Thanks

Response:

I have gone up to the Sault for about 4 years now using standard spinning gear sn spoons for the Pink Salmon.  I have to say, despite seeing lots of fish, the "cast per fish" ratio is outrageous.  We would catch 1-2 each for about 8 hours of fishing.  I have heard that fly fishing for them is MUCH better, and I’m looking for advice on where and how to catch them.  I live in Michigan.  

Two local guides, one Canadian and one US, feature in Linsenman, Bob, and Steve Nevala Great Lakes Steelhead: a Guided Tour for Fly Anglers Backcountry Pubs., Woodstock Vt. (1995) — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

Response:

Question:

In mid October we’re headed from San Francisco up to fish the Olympic Peninsula and then on up to fish the Kispiox in upper BC.  I need a pair of hip boots, 5mm with lug soles (don’t wade deep any more so hippers should do fine).  Gear such as this are not available here in Hawaii. We’ll be going thru Portland.  Can anyone tell me where I can buy such an animal there, the address of the shop, and their phone number. Aloha, |Robert (aka: Bob) B. Graham – NINC-HON [retired]   Office: gone fishing  | |(Nerd-In-Chief Honolulu)                             Home: (808) 395-9360| |City & County of Honolulu         Prodigy: WTKW87A                       | I have a vice, that vice is fishing – time stops, I’m in a different world.

Response:

Im sure you’ve heard it before- but Kaufmann’s streamborn is located in tigard (basically portland) at 8861 SW Commercial in tigard- Just a little ways off of I 5. You can call (503) 639-6400 for more info and directions. Id really reccomend Kaufmann’s – im sure theyll have whatever you need. tight lines -matt petkun

: In mid October we’re headed from San Francisco up to fish the Olympic : Peninsula and then on up to fish the Kispiox in upper BC.  I need a pair : of hip boots, 5mm with lug soles (don’t wade deep any more so hippers : should do fine).  Gear such as this are not available here in Hawaii. : We’ll be going thru Portland.  Can anyone tell me where I can buy such an : animal there, the address of the shop, and their phone number. : Aloha, : |Robert (aka: Bob) B. Graham – NINC-HON [retired]   Office: gone fishing  | : |(Nerd-In-Chief Honolulu)                             Home: (808) 395-9360| : |City & County of Honolulu         Prodigy: WTKW87A                       | : I have a vice, that vice is fishing – time stops, I’m in a different world.

Response:

Bob, I’m going to have to disagree with Mary. Kaufmann’s does not carry hip waders. (They believe them dangerous and/or undesireable). If you are just looking for a place during a layover, then grab a cab and go to GI Joe’s at Jantzen Beach. Any cabbie should know where that is. Actually, I would suggest GI Joe’s even if it will be an extended stay. I might suggest getting felt sole waders, though. The rocks in shallow water are the most slippery, usually. Sean Williams Student, Teacher, Angler Portland, Ore., USA

Response:

You can also check with the Larry’s Sporting Goods in Oregon City or in Gresham.  There is also a GI Joes and another Larry’s Sporting Goods in Gresham, plus one more GI Joes in the Rockwood area (somewhere around 182nd and Burnside) in Portland.  That is presuming they are all still open, it’s been 8 years since I lived in the area. Do you really want 5 mil neoprene hippers?  They’re real warm.  Also, keep in mind that if you are trying to be stealthy around trout or steelhead you can’t kneel down with hippers as they will fill up even in shallow water.                                                                   Dan Dan Gracia Schools Coordinator Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

Response:

Question:

Hi gang: Since moving to Oregon I have been doing alot more fly fishing and I began to see the advantages of a drift boat or the like.  However Drift boats take up alot of space and require a trailer and cost$$$.  I have always enjoyed rafting and surf kyaking so it seemed logical to look at canoes.  What I need is something that can handle the equipment for fishing and camping for a few days and the ability to handle upto class III rapids. Am I dreaming?  Do any of you folks fish from a canoe and have some suggestions on what to look for.  I am willing to give up some initial stability for whitewater capability as most of the rivers I fish have at least a couple of class III and IV rapids. Thanx in advance! charles.

Response:

Hey If you find one let me know..I love fishing bones in a canoe..use an electric troller… and I’m due for a new one.

Response:

Canoes are great watercraft, but not the best fishing craft on streams.  I have a Mad River Explorer which I love, but it is quite difficult for a single person, i.e. stern paddler to manage the canoe in fast water and at the same time place the fisherman in the bow in optimal position to fish holding water.  This is particularly true if the canoe is loaded down with camping gear.  If fishing is you primary use, I would recommend a raft with rowing frame.  It takes up less space than a canoe or driftboat and you could probably pick up one at an end-of-season sale for little more than you’d spend for a canoe capable of negotiating whitewater safely.  On the other hand, if you mostly want to float and *stop* to fish likely areas, the canoe is faster and more fun.  Hope this helps.  One thing to remember is that you won’t stop at Class III if you’re like most of us.   Longspeer

Response:

I fish from canoes quite a bit but in somewhat different waters (ozark streams). My  experience is  that flyfishing while solo paddling required a canoe with good tracking otherwise one ends up having to correct my course during almost every cast. However note that  to run class III rapids you will probably want a play boat with plenty of rocker unless you are exceptionally good on a canoe. I have no solution for this opposing requirements. For what is worth, I use a Mad River Malacite. RioSimpson.

Response:

I used to have an Old Town Katahdin that I could stand in easily.  It has a 41" beam and is a good buy for the money!

Response:

writes: Canoes are great watercraft, but not the best fishing craft on

streams.  I……Longspeer   I Have to Agree that a canoe of any type would be less than ideal for fishing in most faster water.  Rafts are much more stable and forgiving when your attention is on that HUGE trout you have on.  We used to count on going swimming if we took a canoe, and we were on pretty tame waters.  I usually fish from a drift boat, but have fished from rafts and, if set up right, they are great! Steve May

Response:

Check out Aquaterra’s kayaks: Keowee, Keowee II and Gemini or Jocasse. I’ve had a Gemini, a two person 16′ kayak with a single 6′ opening, for six years or so. The big advantage over a canoe is that it’s less influenced by wind. It’s very stable and has a comfortable seating position. Downside: a little on the heavy side 65# and not very practical to carry overhead like a canoe but you can drag it just about over any type of terrain without worrying about damage. Glenn Lemke Manchester, VT

Response:

I agre with Glenn on the advantage of a Sea Kayak over a canoe.  I have an Aquaterra Chinook, BUT–if you ever hook into the bow portion, and I’ve done it with a clumsey cast, you’re screwed!  For all around use in flatwater of 50acres or less–the float tube is probably the way to go.

Response:

Charles: I’ve done considerable fishing from my Mad River "Courier" and it would be an excellent boat for what you want. It was designed to be an extended wilderness tripping boat. It is tough and handles rapids very well and has a semi-v bottom characteristic of Mad River canoes. The construction is of Royalex (or Mad River’s equivalent) so it will take a beating and keep on ticking. I use mine for camping, fishing and just tooting around. I would definitely buy another. Richard Warren Raleigh, NC

Response:

I am the one that suggested a Mad Rive Courier canoe. I forgot to add that this is a solo canoe. Buy yourself one of those cheap short paddles about 24" long to correct your drift with. It is a lot easier than reaching for a long heavy paddle. Richard Warren Raleigh, NC

Response: