Question:

The 2IC wandered into my office yesterday and noted that the 1IC was detained and wouldn’t be in for the rest of the day … I looked at my duffle bag (which contains accoutrements for annoying fish) looked back at the 2IC and said "I might make it to 3:30 this afternoon …" I didn’t – at 2:50 I teed up the pick-up and we were well on our way by 3:30.  How is it that roadwork crews unfailingly select peak hour to rip up roadways? Does it take them all day to find the road to be ripped up?  Is it their way of making sure the maximum number of rate payers "notice" them? If so, they do a mighty fine job of it. Bugger ‘em. I’d scoped out a pool and glide a few weeks ago that provided some terrific dry-fly fishing mid-morning and that’s where we were heading. It was a bit warm waiting to get through the council induced traffic snarl but the air-con worked well as always – we just opened the windows wider.  Actually the weather looked a bit stormy before we hit the Divide and the cool mountain air. A few spots of rain as we geared up was all the inclemency suffered and the clouds gradually dissipated as the afternoon wore on. As I said, I scoped this stream a few weeks ago, and you guessed it: nary a fish in places I found them previously.  We fished, peeked, snuck, and skulked around and through through some nice looking water only picking up the odd fish.  We weren’t moving fast enough for me though – I really wanted to see that pool and its tailout. Bugger – a couple of fish in side channels. We did our best … he to catch them, me to get a wriggle on.   Columns of midges a metre in diameter and some 3-5 metres high  were evident over some of the backwaters – how many insects in those columns?   They twisted and gyrated like huge schools of baitfish being rounded up by predators.  A combination of the fluky breeze and the midges’ urges drove the column to writhe, twist and seemingly eject adults at the base of the column. There lay a single predator waiting and sipping the evicted with unhurried confidence.  Those that escaped that vortex trickled out of the backwater and down stream past us and into a drop pool.  You have to get your rocks off quick if you’re a midge. At last! The pool. They rose. All of them.  They rose and we cast, and we cast and we cast.  Then the takes started – one, two, three – six or more  missed.  Bigger fly same pattern – its getting dark. _Somebody_ was fairing a little better and had one, the bounder was using a swing I noticed on his second.  Not an unreasonable tactic considering the number of caddis about.  Same dry fly, cast to the same fish, cast across and drawn as it approached a fishes position bought good solid takes and hook-ups.   Certainly my imaginings about the pool had more than been matched by the reality at least on this occasion. A  pleasant surprise and a lovely place to put a bend in a new rod. As for Caddis: to dead-drift or not: that is the question: Whether ’tis nobler to suffer the rings and splashes of short takes, or to take arms against a battery of upstream dry-fly men and, by opposing, offend?  Yet by a swing we end the heart-ache and catch. Steve (humblest apologies to Bill … and any who got this far

Response:

…….(humblest apologies to Bill … and any who got this far

Yeah, well, billy’s on his own.  Besides, he understood the groundlings.  Nice stuff, Steve. Not sure exactly where you’re at.  I was almost enticed into a backpacking trip in the Blue Mountains a couple of years ago.  Any fish there? Wolfgang

Response:

Not sure exactly where you’re at.  I was almost enticed into a backpacking trip in the Blue Mountains a couple of years ago.  Any fish there?

It’s not my neck of the woods, but yes there are.  Small stream’s that you’d be used to, with populations of small browns and rainbows. The Cox’s River is rather larger and had (I haven’t heard much of it in the last few years) a significant rainbow run each winter (at least I think its winter).   Steve

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not sure exactly where you’re at.  I was almost enticed into a backpacking trip in the Blue Mountains a couple of years ago.  Any fish there? It’s not my neck of the woods, but yes there are.  Small stream’s that you’d be used to, with populations of small browns and rainbows. The Cox’s River is rather larger and had (I haven’t heard much of it in the last few years) a significant rainbow run each winter (at least I think its winter). Steve

Hm…….interesting.  One last questions then.  Ya’ll got any REAL beer down there?      :) Wolfgang

Response:

Hm…….interesting.  One last questions then.  Ya’ll got any REAL beer down there?      :)

Yep, you can also get Bud if you want it.   Steve

Response:

Question:

I was given my first fly rod …. a cheap cane one bought at Sears …. a Ted Williams or something, as I recall I took it to Yellowstone in 1970 on vacation and caught my first fly caught trout …. and it changed my life. What was the "value" of that old "cheap, give away’ rod?     To me, it has been priceless …. the rod, itself is long gone…. but, what it started grows faster each passing year… a love of trout, fly fishing, and the places both require About 20 years ago I gave a ‘kid" that worked for me an old Fenwick glass fly rod, I had "advanced" to graphite.    To make a long story short, he got hooked, went to school in fisheries biology, and now works for  Fish and Game.    I just got a phone call from him, to tell me where the ducks and geese where at, in case I wanted a good hunt, in a little known spot. The value of the old glass rod?…. well, what is somehing that points a young person towards a good career worth?  What is an "insider" phone call worth when the fishing gets hot?… I get several a year because of that rod. A number of  years ago, a fellow, then in his 80’s,  that I barely knew gave me an E.C. Powell rod and told me it’s history.  To my "why me?" he answered, " I saw you fishing Silver Creek, and it’s rare to see a person enjoying the sport that much, I walked by you within feet and you never even noticed, you were totally absorbed, in your fishing.   The rod comes with a requirement …do no ‘collect’ this rod.   I’m giving it to you becasue I want it FISHED, not collected." I do fish it, too, a few times each year.  It could be "collected"…  Walton Powell, wanted it for his collection when he was still alive.   But, when I get to the point where I can’t fish it, you will see me walking the banks, looking for the right person to pass it on to …. and he will be told to fish it, not collect it. Got an old rod, that you don’t really use?  Consider giving it to a "kid" …. even if it’s "just a rod" to you, it won’t be to him, if it gets him out on the streams Got a valuable collectors item …. at least consider fishing it, now and then.   Imho, that is the best way to honor it’s maker

Response:

  A number of  years ago, a fellow, then in his 80’s,  that I barely knew gave me an E.C. Powell rod and told me it’s history.  To my "why me?" he answered, " I saw you fishing Silver Creek, and it’s rare to see a person enjoying the sport that much, I walked by you within feet and you never even noticed, you were totally absorbed, in your fishing.   The rod comes with a requirement …do no ‘collect’ this rod.   I’m giving it to you becasue I want it FISHED, not collected."

Your settings are right on the mark, Larry.

Response:

Larry, Were you born on March 25th 1945 ? — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com   I was given my first fly rod …. a cheap cane one bought at Sears …. a Ted Williams or something, as I recall   I took it to Yellowstone in 1970 on vacation and caught my first fly caught trout …. and it changed my life.   What was the "value" of that old "cheap, give away’ rod?     To me, it has been priceless …. the rod, itself is long gone…. but, what it started grows faster each passing year… a love of trout, fly fishing, and the places both require   About 20 years ago I gave a ‘kid" that worked for me an old Fenwick glass fly rod, I had "advanced" to graphite.    To make a long story short, he got hooked, went to school in fisheries biology, and now works for  Fish and Game.    I just got a phone call from him, to tell me where the ducks and geese where at, in case I wanted a good hunt, in a little known spot.   The value of the old glass rod?…. well, what is somehing that points a young person towards a good career worth?  What is an "insider" phone call worth when the fishing gets hot?… I get several a year because of that rod.   A number of  years ago, a fellow, then in his 80’s,  that I barely knew gave me an E.C. Powell rod and told me it’s history.  To my "why me?" he answered, " I saw you fishing Silver Creek, and it’s rare to see a person enjoying the sport that much, I walked by you within feet and you never even noticed, you were totally absorbed, in your fishing.   The rod comes with a requirement …do no ‘collect’ this rod.   I’m giving it to you becasue I want it FISHED, not collected."   I do fish it, too, a few times each year.  It could be "collected"…  Walton Powell, wanted it for his collection when he was still alive.   But, when I get to the point where I can’t fish it, you will see me walking the banks, looking for the right person to pass it on to …. and he will be told to fish it, not collect it.   Got an old rod, that you don’t really use?  Consider giving it to a "kid" …. even if it’s "just a rod" to you, it won’t be to him, if it gets him out on the streams   Got a valuable collectors item …. at least consider fishing it, now and then.   Imho, that is the best way to honor it’s maker

Response:

  Larry,   Were you born on March 25th 1945 ?   —   ahhh…pretty close…right age group, for sure.   but, I don’t know the significance of that date … am I being dumber than my normal, very dumb, self ???  

Response:

Question:

There are some theories based on comparative analysis of DNA from rainbows native to this region versus that from rainbows native further north which point at them possibly being genetically the least changed and therefore the oldest. This is alluded to by Loev in his book "Flyfishing For Sharks."

Someone once told me that rainbow trout originated on the Pacific coast of Siberia. This guy is an outfitter on the Kamchatka Peninsula, so I took it with a grain of salt (bullshit detectors at work, Wayno , but it’s an interesting idea. I’m pretty sure that rainbows are native to Siberia, so there’s no reason they might not have originated there rather than in North America. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

I’m pretty sure that rainbows are native to Siberia, so there’s no reason they might not have originated there rather than in North America.

Rainbows originated in the North Pacific basin, along with cutts and Pacific salmon. They were first classified by a Swedish scientist studying fish from Kamchatka, but there is no real evidence that they actually evolved there.

Response:

Someone once told me that rainbow trout originated on the Pacific coast of Siberia. This guy is an outfitter on the Kamchatka Peninsula, so I took it with a grain of salt (bullshit detectors at work, Wayno , but it’s an interesting idea. I’m pretty sure that rainbows are native to Siberia, so there’s no reason they might not have originated there rather than in North America.

The Russians certainly think this.  There are even some that think there’s evidence Oncorhynchus sp. as a group originated there.  The evidence is purely phenotypic, though, and they concede the evidence admits other possibilities.  Go to: http://www.psmfc.org/workshops/shconf98.html and scroll down to the last abstract, "The Diversity of Pacific Trouts in Kamchatkan Water Bodies". A "final" answer will probably have to await complete sequencing of the DNA from a number of native populations across the entire range of the species.  That’s no doubt a long way off.  There’s a lot of research being done on the genetics of rainbow trout (a complete nucleotide sequence for mitochondrial DNA was published in ‘95).  Much, probably most, of it is on hatchery and/or introduced populations rather than native ones. JR

Response:

… a complete nucleotide sequence for mitochondrial DNA was published in ‘95) …

Datapoint – within each cell of a human, there is one strand of mitochondrial DNA and 23 pairs (46 strands) of nuclear DNA. For salmon/trout, there is again just one strand of mitochondrial DNA but anywhere from ~26 to 39 pairs of nuclear DNA. The mitochondrial DNA is interesting because it is passed down maternally, so it is useful for tracking lineage. It is also the case that it is only ~16,500 base pairs (roughly letters) long and not highly variable. Nuclear DNA (also called genomic or genetic DNA) on the other hand is passed down from both parents, is constantly mixed up in each individual, and is really the stuff that controls who/what each of us is and or could be. In humans, genetic DNA represents roughly 3 billion base pairs, and in salmon/trout, roughly 2.4 billion base pairs. Many fish studies to date have tried to draw conclusions from the easier-to-work-with mitochondrial DNA, but the really interesting results will come from an in-depth study of the nuclear DNA.  As of last year, the more advanced studies going on in the Columbia Basin were drawing conclusions based on 17/1000 of 1% of the nuclear DNA. Thomas Gilg

Response:

Steelhead trout originated in Southern California … or points south in Mexico. San Diego county drainages had steelhead and salmon runs as late as the 1940’s. Recently, steelhead were discovered in San Mateo creek, just north of Camp Pendleton in San Diego county, and efforts are underway to return this stream to a viable steelhead fishery.  (A very uphill battle!) If you live in the San Diego/Orange County area and would like to participate in a ‘Camping/Cleanup" being conducted on September 8 and 9 (no fishing, strictly a habitat improvement mission), send me email and I’ll send you the details. FiddleAway

Response:

Steelhead trout originated in Southern California … or points south in Mexico.

?? JR

Response:

Steelhead trout originated in Southern California … or points south in Mexico. ??

At least when the last ice age retreated 10-13,000 years ago, there were ice sheets on both sides of the Columbia River, hence the Columbia is where salmon held over during the last ice age, and once the ice retreated, those salmon spread north and south to their current range. Going back in time, it would be interesting where else salmon many have "held over" and "originated". –tg

Response:

Steelhead trout originated in Southern California … or points south in Mexico. ?? JR

There are some theories based on comparative analysis of DNA from rainbows native to this region versus that from rainbows native further north which point at them possibly being genetically the least changed and therefore the oldest. This is alluded to by Loev in his book "Flyfishing For Sharks." Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories Phone: (650)-857-5491               Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971          

Response:

There are some theories based on comparative analysis of DNA from rainbows native to this region versus that from rainbows native further north which point at them possibly being genetically the least changed and therefore the oldest. This is alluded to by Loev in his book "Flyfishing For Sharks."

That’s interesting. I’ll steal a glance at that section of the book on my next visit to Borders, if they haven’t gone and sold it yet. (Sorry, Rich). Still, even if southern stocks of native rainbows are the oldest, it doesn’t necessarily mean that those stocks were the first to adopt anadromy. FiddleAway:  Do folks know where the steelhead "discovered" in Mateo Creek came from?  Are they strays or what?  Also, if you haven’t yet seen it, you might be interested in: http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/species/steelhead/ JR

Response:

Michael McGuire There are some theories based on comparative analysis of DNA from rainbows native to this region versus that from rainbows native further north which point at them possibly being genetically the least changed and therefore the oldest. This is alluded to by Loev in his book "Flyfishing For Sharks."

One theory is that Colorado Cutts are the grandaddies of the west coast trout strains.  The theory is that seagoiong cutts migrated into the Sea of Cortez and down the east coast of Baja, when the latter had a much wetter climate. Eventually these strains migrated down around Cabo and up the Pacific Coast, becoming the Steelhead/Rainbows we know today. The sourthern steelhead eventually developed a tolerance for warmer waters and a life cycle that could tolerate their home streams not being open to the sea every year. As I said before, salmon and steelhead were caught in San Diego county through the 1940’s (maybe later).  There is currently a trout fishery in Mexico on the Pacific side of its central mountain range.  The Melling Ranch is a commercial outfit that caters to people who wish to try this fishery … these trout are not seagoing trout, however. Today, there are still a few steelhead that return to Malibu Creek just north of LA.  At one time, NMFS had set Malibu as the southernmost point for giving special protection status to the fishery.  They’ve balked at extending the protective unit as far as San Mateo creek on the border of Orange/San Diego county, but DNA evidence has shown the trout found there to be a unique strain of southern steelhead.  Not sure what the current legal status is.  I think NMFS is still dragging its heels, but local clubs and conservation associations are continuing to push for restoration of this fishery. Hence, the clean up. FiddleAway

Response:

John Russell  wrote FiddleAway:  Do folks know where the steelhead "discovered" in Mateo Creek came from?  Are they strays or what?  Also, if you haven’t yet seen it, you might be interested in:

The folks I talked to pretty much subscribe to the theory I posted in another response. The study of the creek ensued after trout where caught in its upper reaches. Fin clippings from some 40 odd individuals showed that all of the trout were in the same, 2 year old, generation.  This fact correlated to a heavier winter, two years prior, that had opened up the mouth of the Creek to the ocean. DNA analysis ruled out any relation to stocked strains.  These were natural fish that chose to migrate into the creek from the ocean. FiddleAway

Response:

John Russell  wrote FiddleAway:  Do folks know where the steelhead "discovered" in Mateo Creek came from?  Are they strays or what?  Also, if you haven’t yet seen it, you might be interested in: The folks I talked to pretty much subscribe to the theory I posted in another response.

You’ll have to excuse me if I seem dense, but in your response to Michael (which is the only other one I’ve seen on my server, and I’m assuming is the one you mean), you only say that "DNA evidence has shown the trout found there to be a unique strain of southern steelhead."   The study of the creek ensued after trout where caught in its upper reaches. Fin clippings from some 40 odd individuals showed that all of the trout were in the same, 2 year old, generation.  This fact correlated to a heavier winter, two years prior, that had opened up the mouth of the Creek to the ocean. DNA analysis ruled out any relation to stocked strains.  These were natural fish that chose to migrate into the creek from the ocean.

So you’re saying that these are resident San Mateo rainbows that two years ago, for the first time in decades (or longer) migrated to sea–which is not at all impossible.  Or, in other words, that they are *not* strays from a neighboring population (either wild or stocked). Here’s the reason I asked (taken from the comments of the Southern California Steelhead Recovery Coalition to NMFS proposed extension of the S. Cal Steelhead ESU): "Although steelhead are known to have well-developed homing abilities (see P. B. Moyle, Inland fishes of California, [1976]), it is also known that southern steelhead commonly stray from their natal streams. This straying may be selectively advantageous because it would allow spawners to opportunistically utilize more favorable streams when their natal streams dried up or were blocked.  (See P. Higgins, Southern California Steelhead Recovery Assessment [1991]). An additional feature of southern steelhead is that they ‘miraculously’ reappeared in large spawning runs when flows became suitable in streams that had been dry or otherwise inaccessible during the previous one or more years. The implication is that streams within the historic range of the Southern California Steelhead ESU that are currently unoccupied may be rediscovered by steelhead at anytime. These unoccupied streams are likely to be discovered when habitat conditions in currently occupied streams are less favorable, indicating that all of the historical range of the Southern California Steelhead ESU is essential for the survival and recovery of this ESU." There’s a larger issue at stake here than the fate of the San Mateo population, as important as that is. JR

Response:

So you’re saying that these are resident San Mateo rainbows that two years ago, for the first time in decades (or longer) migrated to sea–which is not at all impossible.  Or, in other words, that they are *not* strays from a neighboring population (either wild or stocked).

No.  I haven’t heard of any evidence for that.  The DNA evidence shows that these trout are related to other southern steelhead. However, I’d be surprised if there aren’t at least anecdotal reports of people catching steelhead in San Mateo creek earlier in the century when all of the drainages in San Diego county were less impacted by development.  This would be consistent with the passage you quoted from the SCSRC. There’s a larger issue at stake here than the fate of the San Mateo population, as important as that is.

I agree, if you are talking about Southern Steelhead in general as the ‘larger issue’. FiddleAway

Response:

One theory is that Colorado Cutts are the grandaddies of the west coast trout strains.  … An interesting theory…I have not read that one.  

I haven’t either.  I have to admit, I am passing on information I got from someone I know who I take to be well informed on the subject. FiddleAway

Response:

One theory is that Colorado Cutts are the grandaddies of the west coast trout strains.  The theory is that seagoiong cutts migrated into the Sea of Cortez and down the east coast of Baja, when the latter had a much wetter climate. Eventually these strains migrated down around Cabo and up the Pacific Coast, becoming the Steelhead/Rainbows we know today.

An interesting theory…I have not read that one.  My understanding is that the rainbow and cutthroat ancestral lines diverged perhaps as long ago as the Pliocene, and then each ancestral line diverged again to become the species/subspecies that we find today (redband and coastal rainbows and the various subspecies of cutts). Interestingly enough, the southernmost known species of salmonids occurring in watersheds that drain to the Pacific (the Mexican Golden Trout, Apache Trout, and Gila Trout) all appear to be more closely related to rainbows than to cutts.  I would expect the reverse to be true if Colorado River cutts represent the ancestral strain.

Response:

At least when the last ice age retreated 10-13,000 years ago, there were ice sheets on both sides of the Columbia River, hence the Columbia is where salmon held over during the last ice age, and once the ice retreated, those salmon spread north and south to their current range. Going back in time, it would be interesting where else salmon many have "held over" and "originated".

Actually, there appear to have been perhaps 4 evolutionary lines of Rainbow (or Rainbow ancestors) in the Sea of Cortez during the four Pleistocene glacial maxima.  These evolutionary lines are thought to be the source of Apache trout, Gila trout, Mexican Golden trout, and several other unclassified strains (if not distinct species) in the Sierra Madre Occidental range in Mexico.

Response:

Question:

Ken you want to respond to this one?

I didn’t see the original post.  Wouldn’t have known about it except for your response.  Did my server overlook something on ROFF, or did you find this somewhere else? Wolfgang

Response:

<SNIPPED Is anyone else seeing the "Hard Working Latinos" thread?  And _I_ get branded a racist for a clearly over-the-top post in the midst of it all?  Sheesh… They are LONG posts, so here is some header info if anyone wants to go to Deja and read it the whole saga:

TC, R

Response:

Original went out to 4 news groups rec.outdoors.fishing.saltwater, rec.outdoors.fishing.fly, rec.outdoors.national-parks, rec.outdoors.rv-travel So you must have missed all of Muskies posts

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did it get filtered or did your server miss it. The original post went to a bunch of newsgroups. I replied to only this one. Bellsout.net filters out crossposted spam, I’m not sure how many crossposted newsgroups in a post it takes to get filtered – maybe 10 or so. — Charlie…

Response:

So you must have missed all of Muskies posts

I filter them myself<g. This one must have met some other criteria, I know a lot of the really outrageous one’s I see replies to never get to me in their original form. — Charlie…

Response:

Sorry, I had meant to snip it.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Geez, Paul, did you have to quote that thing?  My ISP was nice enough to filter it for me… <snipped

Response:

Is anyone else seeing the "Hard Working Latinos" thread?  And _I_ get branded a racist for a clearly over-the-top post in the midst of it all?  Sheesh… Are you really unable to see why people would be more likely to respond to your posts than to an infrequent, obvious troll by someone who doesn’t participate in this newsgroup?

Well, no.  I didn’t post the joke for responses, I posted it as a commentary, hence the stuff before and after the "joke."  But when certain "hall monitors" got on their high horses, I did gig ‘em (No, that wasn’t an Aggie slur).   One thing I do find odd, however: most replies were cries of "Racist!" yet only one "race" was mentioned in the "joke" proper and two total in the entire post, and the "joke" didn’t overtly involve it as an issue.  I really believe these types are no better than real racists because they _think_ they are being righteous without even knowing much about the labels _they_ are so ready to go slapping on people. Richard, the joke you posted did not suprise me. What suprised me is that you apparently thought the joke was funny enough to share.

OK, time to come clean, I guess – the original joke was told to me without the race of the girl or the nationality of the others seemingly being important.  I think it was meant to be strictly a "Jewish lawyer" joke – told to me _by_ a Jewish lawyer, BTW.  I have no idea if the French and Italians (I think they were included because if the "Oo-la-la" and "Mama mia" factors – itself somewhat of a stereotype, however) were being purposefully stereotyped by the writer, but I am fairly sure they were not by the person who related it to me.  I happened to notice those somewhat less obvious stereotypes, and hence, it seemed a good basis for the point of my post. That said, you’re (obviously) free to continue to post whatever jokes you feel like posting. In the future, what would you have other members of the newsgroup do if they find those jokes offensive?

Well, that really isn’t my business – they are free to respond in any way they wish, as am I, or they are free to ignore it, as am I, or they can killfile all they want.  I guess ROFF is destined to become splintered groups who only see about 10% of the posts.  FWIW, I don’t believe in killfiles (other than in a case as discussed re: costs).  I have enough willpower to simply ignore what I don’t want to read, and certainly enough to not respond to what I don’t want to respond to _after_ having read it.  But I don’t begrudge anyone who wishes to use them. An aside:  IIRC, I have posted what would be termed as "Stereotype" humor 3 times – go back and look at what else was being posted at the time, and reread what I posted in light of that. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —Steve

Response:

Is anyone else seeing the "Hard Working Latinos" thread?  And _I_ get branded a racist for a clearly over-the-top post in the midst of it all?  Sheesh…

Are you really unable to see why people would be more likely to respond to your posts than to an infrequent, obvious troll by someone who doesn’t participate in this newsgroup? Richard, the joke you posted did not suprise me. What suprised me is that you apparently thought the joke was funny enough to share. That said, you’re (obviously) free to continue to post whatever jokes you feel like posting. In the future, what would you have other members of the newsgroup do if they find those jokes offensive? –Steve

Response:

These threads are obviously being filtered by somebody with a lot of sense at server propagation levels, probably due to cross-posting. I have seen no posts about racist poets or Latinos. If not for some of the replies here, I would not have known of them.  Really just another piece of useless knowledge I could happily dispense with. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is anyone else seeing the "Hard Working Latinos" thread?  And _I_ get branded a racist for a clearly over-the-top post in the midst of it all?  Sheesh…

Response:

I started getting them again. The original was sent to many newsgroups and it gets picked up occasionally. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <SNIPPED

Response:

Did it get filtered or did your server miss it. The original post went to a bunch of newsgroups. I replied to only this one. I think rw may be correct since the host node that the message was sent from did not match any of the email addresses. The host was on Frontier Internet. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ken you want to respond to this one? Interesting that my newsgroup filter blocked the original message, but I’ve never filtered the supposed author.   Probably from some other regular troublemaker.   (Could have lived without the repost, though.) Joe F.

Response:

Did it get filtered or did your server miss it. The original post went to a bunch of newsgroups. I replied to only this one.

Bellsout.net filters out crossposted spam, I’m not sure how many crossposted newsgroups in a post it takes to get filtered – maybe 10 or so. — Charlie…

Response:

Geez, Paul, did you have to quote that thing?  My ISP was nice enough to filter it for me…

<snipped

Response:

Ken you want to respond to this one?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "the threat of negroe sperm"  Black and ugly  nigger sperm  get it in you  it grows like a worm  once inside  a maggot sprouts  nine months later  a monster jumps out!!!! — — Brookings, S.D. | My private address appears on the left.   itctel .com   | http://members.fortunecity.com/jvipond/

Response:

Paul G asked: Ken you want to respond to this one?<

Why bother?  Unless you respond to his ISP, of course.

Response:

Ken you want to respond to this one?

My guess is that someone is trying to screw James Vipond. No one in his right mind would attach his name to this sort of thing. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Ken you want to respond to this one?

Interesting that my newsgroup filter blocked the original message, but I’ve never filtered the supposed author.   Probably from some other regular troublemaker.   (Could have lived without the repost, though.) Joe F.

Response:

Ken you want to respond to this one? Interesting that my newsgroup filter blocked the original message, but I’ve never filtered the supposed author.   Probably from some other regular troublemaker.   (Could have lived without the repost, though.)

I didn’t see the original either. — Charlie…

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Question:

Lawrence, Just as long as you don’t wee on anyone.  :-) Ernie "lawrence" wrote Hi I hope you don’t mind sometimes I like to have a wee prattle! <snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Regards Lawrence

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Come out to Oregon and we’ll go for summer steelies on the Deschutes. Remember, you don’t have to tie your line to your reel! Then we’ll send you out bonefishing with Randall Kaufmann… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  you could possible do without tying your line to your real as that end of the line rarely sees daylight.

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My fly reel holds about 250 metres/yards of line and backing and when 200 yards gets stripped by a fish hooked on a size 14 treble I start running Of course (Ernie from previous reply) others have been known to wee themselves Lawrence — http://www.f-deans.freeserve.co.uk http://www.flytyer.co.uk off my Lily Pad by writing: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Come out to Oregon and we’ll go for summer steelies on the Deschutes. Remember, you don’t have to tie your line to your reel! Then we’ll send you out bonefishing with Randall Kaufmann…  you could possible do without tying your line to your real as that end of the line rarely sees daylight.

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My post was pretty snide. Wasn’t personal! At least when a fish that big strips your spool, you know it’s moving in the opposite direction!

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Hi I hope you don’t mind sometimes I like to have a wee prattle! When I were a lad I remember fishing one day with a stick a cord and a piece of pin for a hook. I had at least three or four knots in the cord when this old codger said to me.  "Son you’ll never catch a fish with that it’s got too many knots in it" Whats knots got to do with it I replied. He said with a smile  "If you hook a fish, every knot between you and the fish is a weak spot. You have at least three or four weak spots, you can guarantee that it will be easier for the bigger fish to break one of these weak spots" "If you can son aim for one knot between you and the fish" I said which one would that be then? "The one that ties on the hook" he grinned and off he went. His legacy left to me all those years ago is with me to this day. Do not have more weak links between you and the fish than you need. I guess it’s impossible to fish with only one knot, between you and the fish, but you can minimise the effect. My fishing setup has a knot joining my line to my reel and a knot joining my line to my hook these two are a necessity. Well almost you could possible do without tying your line to your real as that end of the line rarely sees daylight. In between that (the weak spots) I have a permanently whipped loop on the end of my fly line. This joins to the leader with another loop and that is it! The only other weak spot I have is that I like to prattle every now and then Regards Lawrence — http://www.f-deans.freeserve.co.uk http://www.flytyer.co.uk

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The power company last spring stated that for new lines to be strung an Impact report had to be filed  because the home was within 300′ of the river.No trees or brush could be removed till he had permission from the BLM and CFG.

snip Harry – I appreciate your friend’s difficulties. I will not defend, and in fact will oppose, unreasonable restrictions on property rights. But, on the other hand, protection of our resources will require some restrictions – where the rabbit goes in the hat is what is "reasonable".   I can assure you that this conference does not have as its pupose the extinguishment of our property rights. Mark Faulkner

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Sheesh Harry: I’m holding the registration brochure/abstract listing in my hand and I’m sorry, but I fail to see anything about government confiscation of property or abridgement of 5th Amendment Rights.  There will however, be sessions on stream bank fencing, the benefits of streambank riparian buffers on aquatic habitats and lo and behold… also sessions on landowner assistance, and the purchase of easements for riparian habitat enhancement work. That’s purchase, you know… a wiling buyer and a willing seller.  From what I can glean from your description, your friend on the Klamath is yet another example where the "One Size Fits All" proclivity of government has exhibited from time to time in being inflexible and profoundly unfair to citizens and property owners. He has been wronged.. This type of abuse deserves the same vigorous exposure and correction as the unmasking and pursuit of those who would use the guise of whining about property rights violations to hedge and fudge existing environmental standards.  For as long as I can recall, this entire discussion has been overly long on the proclamation of "rights" and far too brief on the discussion of "responsibilities". Enough of that. This conference is not about how to mount a night raid to seize Uncle John’s south woods along the North Fork of Hometown Run and add them to the public trust.  Its about why trees with good root systems tend to hold streambanks in place and stuff like that. The luncheon and presentations are great, but conspiracies are in short supply, I’m afraid.  

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RLPPT   You are correct, I was ahead of myself.    The one size fits all dogma of the Fed is derived in no small part from  those groups and experts that know "what’s best for the Resource".  I’m sorry if I implied that the Keystone Conference in of it’s self is responsible for this type of thought process. That was not my intension. What I am saying is that over time, the Ecological and Philosophical solution to the premise that the Riparian habitat is being destroyed is; prohibit entrence.There is no reference to conspiracy or rights or responsibilities in that statement, nor were there in my other note. HM electrons to read: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Sheesh Harry: I’m holding the registration brochure/abstract listing in my hand and I’m sorry, but I fail to see anything about government confiscation of property or abridgement of 5th Amendment Rights.  There will however, be sessions on stream bank fencing, the benefits of streambank riparian buffers on aquatic habitats and lo and behold… also sessions on landowner assistance, and the purchase of easements for riparian habitat enhancement work. That’s purchase, you know… a wiling buyer and a willing seller. From what I can glean from your description, your friend on the Klamath is yet another example where the "One Size Fits All" proclivity of government has exhibited from time to time in being inflexible and profoundly unfair to citizens and property owners. He has been wronged.. This type of abuse deserves the same vigorous exposure and correction as the unmasking and pursuit of those who would use the guise of whining about property rights violations to hedge and fudge existing environmental standards.  For as long as I can recall, this entire discussion has been overly long on the proclamation of "rights" and far too brief on the discussion of "responsibilities". Enough of that. This conference is not about how to mount a night raid to seize Uncle John’s south woods along the North Fork of Hometown Run and add them to the public trust.  Its about why trees with good root systems tend to hold streambanks in place and stuff like that. The luncheon and presentations are great, but conspiracies are in short supply, I’m afraid.  

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the electons to read: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The 2/20 conference at Penn State is jointly sponsored by Pennsylvania and National TU, the Chesapeake Bay Foundation, Pa Fish & Boat Commission, Pa Audubon, PA-DEP, PA-DNCR (PA’s Environmental Regulatory Agencies), and several private sector companies like Orvis, etc. This is the third annual conference and if it comes off like the first two, there will be over 300 folks there from agencies and the conservation community networking and talking and planning on what is best for the resource and our coldwater fisheries.  Registration is open until 2/6. Call one of the folks in the previous post.  Last year,I think we had attendees from 11 states. This is getting to be some event and I for one won’t miss it. Thanks Bob, you saved me some typing.  I’ll see you there.  Not sure where Harry was coming from there.   Mark Faulkner

  I have a friend who lives on the Upper Klamath,outside of Happy camp. He is a Nam vet and has ‘retired’ to a home he inheritated from his father in 88.His place sits on about 30 acres of ground with about an 1/8 of mile of river front. The heavy winter of last year did a number on his power lines and he spent time and money to replace what he could till last spring so the major line could be replaced. The power company last spring stated that for new lines to be strung an Impact report had to be filed  because the home was within 300′ of the river.No trees or brush could be removed till he had permission from the BLM and CFG.The report cost $1750.  They have succeeded in impeding any improvements ,maintenance to his property till he got "permission". The road to his place needed attention of a D9 cat , he could not do it.  They have for all intents and purposes, confiscated his property. He could sell but then he, by law, has to state that the Fed will not allow improvements or the like… that means no buyers. After much legal hassle and expense the power was replaced under a "one time" grandfather clause. His is still fighting to get what’s left back.   So when a group, any group gets together to "decide what’s best for the resource" my ears perk up. If, like on the "Post Spill" Upper Sac here in Ca. a group or town (Dunsmire) can demand the fishing regs reflect it’s desire to allow more bait fishing, then the jump in the opposite direction,i.e. No fishing at all is not as Quantum as you may think.It depends on who is yelling the loudest  The environmental extension to the question of what’s best for the resource is; no human interaction. After all, if C&R is deemed harmful to the resource by a group that wields the power or the public backing, we as a group are not left with much to do except fish from our SUV’s with  3 D helmets on.  I agree with those that are trying to improve what can be and have and do jump in myself, but given the radical days of Green Political correctness we are in, the outlawing of fishing and or boating is not nearly as far fetched as it was 10 years ago. What will the next 10 hold ?   harry Other than that, I off to tye at the ISE show… Have a good one

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the electons to read: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The 2/20 conference at Penn State is jointly sponsored by Pennsylvania and National TU, the Chesapeake Bay Foundation, Pa Fish & Boat Commission, Pa Audubon, PA-DEP, PA-DNCR (PA’s Environmental Regulatory Agencies), and several private sector companies like Orvis, etc. This is the third annual conference and if it comes off like the first two, there will be over 300 folks there from agencies and the conservation community networking and talking and planning on what is best for the resource and our coldwater fisheries.  Registration is open until 2/6. Call one of the folks in the previous post.  Last year,I think we had attendees from 11 states. This is getting to be some event and I for one won’t miss it. Thanks Bob, you saved me some typing.  I’ll see you there.  Not sure where Harry was coming from there.   Mark Faulkner

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The 2/20 conference at Penn State is jointly sponsored by Pennsylvania and National TU, the Chesapeake Bay Foundation, Pa Fish & Boat Commission, Pa Audubon, PA-DEP, PA-DNCR (PA’s Environmental Regulatory Agencies), and several private sector companies like Orvis, etc. This is the third annual conference and if it comes off like the first two, there will be over 300 folks there from agencies and the conservation community networking and talking and planning on what is best for the resource and our coldwater fisheries.  Registration is open until 2/6. Call one of the folks in the previous post.  Last year,I think we had attendees from 11 states. This is getting to be some event and I for one won’t miss it.

Thanks Bob, you saved me some typing.  I’ll see you there.  Not sure where Harry was coming from there.   Mark Faulkner

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projected the electons to read: THIRD ANNUAL KEYSTONE COLDWATER CONFERENCE:                           MULTIPLE BENEFITS OF STREAMSIDE BUFFERS The time is coming when this "Quite" sport in which we participate will come to be looked upon as invasive, detrimental and  damaging to the riparian environment. Harry, get a grip, man.  One just doesn’t follow from the other.  Now put down your copy of "The Turner Diaries", kick back and enjoy the millenium. Anything being sponsored by Penn State University has to be good.

 Fiddle on Nero , Actually I just finished Tyer’s Benchside cover to cover, very nice book. In general  schools east of the Divide are just to Provincial… Hm (helmet in place )

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The 2/20 conference at Penn State is jointly sponsored by Pennsylvania and National TU, the Chesapeake Bay Foundation, Pa Fish & Boat Commission, Pa Audubon, PA-DEP, PA-DNCR (PA’s Environmental Regulatory Agencies), and several private sector companies like Orvis, etc. This is the third annual conference and if it comes off like the first two, there will be over 300 folks there from agencies and the conservation community networking and talking and planning on what is best for the resource and our coldwater fisheries.  Registration is open until 2/6. Call one of the folks in the previous post.  Last year,I think we had attendees from 11 states. This is getting to be some event and I for one won’t miss it.

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THIRD ANNUAL KEYSTONE COLDWATER CONFERENCE:                           MULTIPLE BENEFITS OF STREAMSIDE BUFFERS

The time is coming when this "Quite" sport in which we participate will come to be looked upon as invasive, detrimental and  damaging to the riparian environment.

Harry, get a grip, man.  One just doesn’t follow from the other.  Now put down your copy of "The Turner Diaries", kick back and enjoy the millenium. Anything being sponsored by Penn State University has to be good.

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Seminars will include: River viewing from afar. Casting over the Riparian zone with bow and arrow. Landing trout remotely from viewing area. Who to contact in the Fed. to get permission to ask someone if you can touch the water.   A feasibility study of "virtual" fly fishing in 3D  from your now outlawed SUV. Pay for view The time is coming when this "Quite" sport in which we participate will come to be looked upon as invasive, detrimental and  damaging to the riparian environment. You may say, it’s a matter of degree, FF’ers don’t damage the "Zone" as much as say  Cattle .You would be correct, the problem is: we do not define the Degree and wading is invasive, trails are damaging and sticking little fish for joy is or will not  be PC. It’s only a matter of time, sorry to say. HM (I don’t see Black Helicopters or Grays, but I do not inhale sand either.) projected the electons to read: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -THIRD ANNUAL KEYSTONE COLDWATER CONFERENCE:                           MULTIPLE BENEFITS OF STREAMSIDE BUFFERS      SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 20, 1999 To inform individuals from grassroots groups, including watershed organizations and trout unlimited chapters, about the value and function of natural and planted riparian vegetation along upland coldwater streams in enhancing both terrestrial and aquatic ecosystems. There will be sessions on:                 Fish and Water Quality                 Bird Abundance and Diversity                 Landscape Ecology                 Stream Bank Fencing                 Geographical Information Systems For up to date conference information: http://www.outreach.psu.edu/C&I/Coldwaterconservation For More Information About program content: Janie French (814) 768-9584 Jack Williams (814) 764-3368 About registration or access: Mark Bernhard, Penn State Conferences and Institutes 225 The Penn Stater Conference Hotel State College  PA  16802 Phone: (814)863-5121 Fax: (814) 863-5190

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An interesting novel that I found with some great fly-fishing sequences. Not only about fishing, a murder mystery, but ties fishing in as a part of life – right on! Its an E-Book. http://www.spiritvirtualbooks.com/Trone.htm Learn the recipe for a hot new fly. "The Blonde Armpit"  :)

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http://www.getfishy.com/picks for the top ten fly fishing books.  –ed – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – An interesting novel that I found with some great fly-fishing sequences. Not only about fishing, a murder mystery, but ties fishing in as a part of life – right on! Its an E-Book. http://www.spiritvirtualbooks.com/Trone.htm Learn the recipe for a hot new fly. "The Blonde Armpit"  :)

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— You should have told him about St. Regis, MT.  I don’t think you can get an outastate licence outastate!  

You can also get Idaho licenses in Missoula, at a big sporting goods store, the name of which I forget. — -Wayne Trzyna

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Try telephoning (800)55HUNT5.  Idaho Fish & Game will mail within two weeks.  It’s a great service.  By the way, a neat way to contribute to Idaho’s trout is to buy a season’s license no matter how many days you intend to fish.  I’ve done it for years and it makes me feel good.  (p.s. I live in West Des Moines, Iowa)

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: Can anyone suggest a location to purchase an Idaho fishing licence in either : Coeur D’Alene or Wallace?  I will be driving thru soon and need to pick up an : out-of-state licence.  I used to buy them in St. Regis, but they stopped : selling them. Stop in Coeur d’Alene at just about any gas station or store.  It’s risky to wait until Wallace… it’s a small town and besides… Wallace was destroyed by that volcano.  Didn’t you see the movie? —

You should have told him about St. Regis, MT.  I don’t think you can get an outastate licence outastate!   Go Vandals! john wheaton (boise & plummer) my opinion is always my own…

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Can anyone suggest a location to purchase an Idaho fishing licence in either Coeur D’Alene or Wallace?  I will be driving thru soon and need to pick up an out-of-state licence.  I used to buy them in St. Regis, but they stopped selling them. thanks! -John

Hi John In CDA you can get them at Tom’s Sportco on 4th St or in Wallace there is a sports shop (the name slips past right now) that is on the main st in town. Good luck on your trip. Email me how things turn out — I suspect you are going to the Joe. Take care & … — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products On line catalog – tips & tricks at: http://www.btsflyfishing.com

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: Can anyone suggest a location to purchase an Idaho fishing licence in either : Coeur D’Alene or Wallace?  I will be driving thru soon and need to pick up an : out-of-state licence.  I used to buy them in St. Regis, but they stopped : selling them. Stop in Coeur d’Alene at just about any gas station or store.  It’s risky to wait until Wallace… it’s a small town and besides… Wallace was destroyed by that volcano.  Didn’t you see the movie? — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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Can anyone suggest a location to purchase an Idaho fishing licence in either Coeur D’Alene or Wallace?  I will be driving thru soon and need to pick up an out-of-state licence.  I used to buy them in St. Regis, but they stopped selling them. thanks! -John

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. and.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!warwick!newsfeed.ed.ac.uk!nerc-keyw o

Question:

Does anyone know where I can get a hold of a hatch matcher chart?? Iam just starting out flyfishing and I need all the  help I can get. None of the fly shops in my area carry them. I would appreciate any advice on where to get a hold of one. RON

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: Does anyone know where I can get a hold of a hatch matcher chart?? : Iam just starting out flyfishing and I need all : the  help I can get. None of the fly shops in my area carry them. I would : appreciate any advice on where to get a hold of one. : RON A good book for beginners is Dick Pobst’s guide to insects. It is an Orvis streamside guide.

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PLEASE DO NOT PUMP THE STOMACHS OF THE FISH…  This causes them to adjust their eating habits for several days and can harm the fish permanately.

Yep, leads ‘em down the wayward path to anorexia/bolemia. If you think whirling disease is a problem, let me tell you, once the fish get into a binge and purge cycle, you’ve got a bigger problem.  How you gonna provide psychotherapy to all them fish?  The costs would be astronomical! — -Wayne Trzyna

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Does anyone know where I can get a hold of a hatch matcher chart?? Iam just starting out flyfishing and I need all the  help I can get. None of the fly shops in my area carry them. I would appreciate any advice on where to get a hold of one. RON

 There are a couple of good books out on the market to match the  Hatch with.  Almost any major bookstore can get a copy of the  "Hatch Bible" called MATCHING THE HATCH.  It is a good book but the best  way to match the hatch is by seining the water.  PLEASE DO NOT PUMP THE  STOMACHS OF THE FISH…  This causes them to adjust their eating habits  for several days and can harm the fish permanately.  Since there are so many new anglers out there we need to preserve what we got.

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