Question:

Thailand seems to treat Americans well.  I recall being stopped while sitting in a Thai cab by the police at what appears to be regular police check points for cabs. The Thai policemen noticed that I was American and had instructed the cab drive to treat me well and to get me to where I was going without delay responding in English that I enjoy my visit to Thailand. I have a fond memory of Bankok and enjoyed my stay there.

This sound like the reception Americans now receive in Phnom Penh, where it has recently been discovered that tourism is a huge money earner for everyone from coconut sellers in the streets to top dog Cambodiana Hotel owners. In Siem Reap, tourists coming from Bangkok are so popular, the guest house owners welcome them with extra security! See the latest news from Siem Reap from Gordon Sharpless on http://talesofasia.com/Cambodia/Updates/index.htm The Lao guys don’t seem to care much where anyone comes from, but in Vietnam, Americans are today even more popular than ever! Watch out when those Honda om drivers proposed to visit a bia om!! They dream only of dollars!! Cheers,

Response:

Thailand seems to treat Americans well.  I recall being stopped while sitting in a Thai cab by the police at what appears to be regular police check points for cabs. The Thai policemen noticed that I was American and had instructed the cab drive to treat me well and to get me to where I was going without delay responding in English that I enjoy my visit to Thailand. I have a fond memory of Bankok and enjoyed my stay there.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I remember distinctly that the admission to go up the 1000 steps to the top of Marble Mountain in Da Nang was US$10 for foreign tourists, which all 40 people in my tour thought excessive, and none would take the tour!  The admission for Vietnamese natives was $1. There were 4 policemen seating glumly under a shade at the entrance to go up the mountain and probably many more further up. A Swedish national, the nicest guy in the tour, who bought a lot of souvenirs along the way and gave money to begging children, got very upset and put up a noisy fight when he was shortchanged by a shop selling marble figurines!  He was again shortchanged in Hue by a girl selling brass gifts on a tour boat! The government’s 2-tier pricing scheme in most government services like airlines, trains etc…just make tourists feel cheated. The feelings among the tourists are that the Vietnamese government does not understand or care what service is.  They are obviously still waging a guerrilla warfare against the world. Merchants inflate their prices with tourists and look for every chance to short change them! It wasn’t long into this tour when some of the nicest and well-meaning people in the tour became very angry and leery of the Vietnamese government and its officials. In other tour groups in non-communist countries in Asia, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia etc…I had observed much more relaxed, happier and fun interaction between tourists and local people! There is Vietnamese official statitics that only 10% tourists return to Vietnam for a second visit, compared to 50% in Thailand.  Vietnam government and people  have to clean up their acts a great deal to make tourists feel welcomed.  The first thing that should go is that guerrilla warfare mentality among government officials, us against all those foreign devils, before Vietnam can be a friend with the world! VIET THIET

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At many other tourists’ attractions in Vietnam where foreign tourists are charged 10 times Vietnamese for admission, in the range of US$5 to US$10, . . . . . . On the outside chance you were telling the truth about not knowing the value of the US dollar over there (boy, they must have loved you!), the range of entrance fees for foreigners is about $.75 to $4.00, with most falling in the $1.00 category. The few up near $4.00 are the former presidential palace in Saigon, and the three king’s tombs and the Forbidden City in Hue. And yes, Vietnamese nationals pay less. So what? Doug

Response:

Fully concur.  I saw some statistic whereby the Vietnamese communists have arrested some 25,000 people since the close of the conflict most of whom remain in jail or have disappeared off the face of the earth.   The statistics on health problems in Vietnam seem to be accurate to some degree since they tend to mirror WHO related data. Does anyone know the reason for the HIV problem in Vietnam and whether it is related to the "Green Monkey" virus in Vietnam – cousin of the African Green monkey of being spread by heroin – needle  related issues as to spread of the infection. The situation does not look good at all and since HIV can cause severe immune problems that leaves one open for other infections it would be wise to stay clear locations where such problems exist. Of course there is TB and other endemic diseases on the rise in Vietnam.  Thus, a degree of caution is warranted regardless of where you travel in Southeast Asia. While I have long taken a like to Vietnamese food and music having served in country during the war years I will stick to my favorite Vietnamese Restaurant here in the NY metro area (Flushing, Queens County).

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Mr. Hakpheng, Laotian people are indeed gentle. It’s the communists, Lao, Cambodian, Chinese or Vietnamese, who are the lowliest, crudest trash who have no respect for anyone or anything!   They are just a bunch of animals, given to satisfy their animalistic desires.  Nothing is sacred to them! Khmer Rouge and Pathet Laos were well known for raping, torturing, murdering women and children. I had posted in this group a true story by a then 14 year-old girl under Pol Pot’ horrible Khmer Rouge regime, who witnessed her close friends raped, sodomized, tortured then buried live in concentration camp by a bunch of Pol Pot’s soldier not much older then she. She now lives and works for the County of Los Angeles! These Communist savages should be driven from all countries on earth! VIET THIET Sabaydi THanouxay, I am so shock by this language you use. We have many of the young and innocent one here in SCL. We can not use this kind of the language to give them the bad idea. If you  have the bad word, you have to use the and this kind of the thing. It is the civilize way in America call as Etiquette language. Hakpheng

Response:

I remember distinctly that the admission to go up the 1000 steps to the top of Marble Mountain in Da Nang was US$10 for foreign tourists, which all 40 people in my tour thought excessive, and none would take the tour!  The admission for Vietnamese natives was $1.

Wrong again, Bucko! It is NOT, I repeat NOT $10!!!!! I’ve been up there more times than I can remember – the most recent about May 28. I’ve had hundreds of clients go there. I’ll find out the exact entrance fee, but it’s something like $1 for foreigners – less for Vietnamese. Doug PS. It may seem like 1,000 steps, escpecially as you near the top, but it’s really about 300.

Response:

I remember distinctly that the admission to go up the 1000 steps to the top of Marble Mountain in Da Nang was US$10 for foreign tourists, which all 40 people in my tour thought excessive, and none would take the tour!  The admission for Vietnamese natives was $1. There were 4 policemen seating glumly under a shade at the entrance to go up the mountain and probably many more further up. A Swedish national, the nicest guy in the tour, who bought a lot of souvenirs along the way and gave money to begging children, got very upset and put up a noisy fight when he was shortchanged by a shop selling marble figurines!  He was again shortchanged in Hue by a girl selling brass gifts on a tour boat! The government’s 2-tier pricing scheme in most government services like airlines, trains etc…just make tourists feel cheated. The feelings among the tourists are that the Vietnamese government does not understand or care what service is.  They are obviously still waging a guerrilla warfare against the world. Merchants inflate their prices with tourists and look for every chance to short change them! It wasn’t long into this tour when some of the nicest and well-meaning people in the tour became very angry and leery of the Vietnamese government and its officials. In other tour groups in non-communist countries in Asia, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia etc…I had observed much more relaxed, happier and fun interaction between tourists and local people! There is Vietnamese official statitics that only 10% tourists return to Vietnam for a second visit, compared to 50% in Thailand.  Vietnam government and people  have to clean up their acts a great deal to make tourists feel welcomed.  The first thing that should go is that guerrilla warfare mentality among government officials, us against all those foreign devils, before Vietnam can be a friend with the world! VIET THIET – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At many other tourists’ attractions in Vietnam where foreign tourists are charged 10 times Vietnamese for admission, in the range of US$5 to US$10, . . . . . . On the outside chance you were telling the truth about not knowing the value of the US dollar over there (boy, they must have loved you!), the range of entrance fees for foreigners is about $.75 to $4.00, with most falling in the $1.00 category. The few up near $4.00 are the former presidential palace in Saigon, and the three king’s tombs and the Forbidden City in Hue. And yes, Vietnamese nationals pay less. So what? Doug

Response:

The $5 toll was what I remember mentioned by the cab driver.  However, I was and still am unfamiliar with Vietnamese currencies, so I was unsure of how much changed hands at both stages.

Let me see if I understand you correctly – - You are Vietnamese. You speak Vietnamese. You have many Vietnamese friends & relatives who have taken trips back to Vietnam. You took a trip back yourself and spent at least 2-3 weeks there. You hung out a bit with VCP types. You used a fake accent to make people think you were undercover police. Finally – you don’t know the difference between $5.00 and $.85? At many other tourists’ attractions in Vietnam where foreign tourists are charged 10 times Vietnamese for admission, in the range of US$5 to US$10, . . . . . .

On the outside chance you were telling the truth about not knowing the value of the US dollar over there (boy, they must have loved you!), the range of entrance fees for foreigners is about $.75 to $4.00, with most falling in the $1.00 category. The few up near $4.00 are the former presidential palace in Saigon, and the three king’s tombs and the Forbidden City in Hue. And yes, Vietnamese nationals pay less. So what? Doug – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Between Noi Bai and Ha Noi, there is a new bridge whose toll costs all vehicles about $5 each way . . . . . . At about 14,000 VND per US dollar, that would be about 70,000 VND if you were correct. You aren’t, of course, but that should surprise no one. The tolls on that bridge and the specially built airport highway (the toll is for both) are as follows: Car   –            12,000 VND Bus (9-30 seats) – 20,000 VND Bus (31-50 seats – 30,000 VND Doug

Response:

Dear Mr. Hakpheng, Laotian people are indeed gentle. It’s the communists, Lao, Cambodian, Chinese or Vietnamese, who are the lowliest, crudest trash who have no respect for anyone or anything!   They are just a bunch of animals, given to satisfy their animalistic desires.  Nothing is sacred to them! Khmer Rouge and Pathet Laos were well known for raping, torturing, murdering women and children. I had posted in this group a true story by a then 14 year-old girl under Pol Pot’ horrible Khmer Rouge regime, who witnessed her close friends raped, sodomized, tortured then buried live in concentration camp by a bunch of Pol Pot’s soldier not much older then she. She now lives and works for the County of Los Angeles! These Communist savages should be driven from all countries on earth! VIET THIET – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sabaydi THanouxay, I am so shock by this language you use. We have many of the young and innocent one here in SCL. We can not use this kind of the language to give them the bad idea. If you  have the bad word, you have to use the and this kind of the thing. It is the civilize way in America call as Etiquette language. Hakpheng

Response:

The $5 toll was what I remember mentioned by the cab driver.  However, I was and still am unfamiliar with Vietnamese currencies, so I was unsure of how much changed hands at both stages. While the specific toll amount may been different, or may have been changed, the bribing and cheating scheme was true.  In fact, bribing and cheating are the norm is everything in Vietnam. Everyone in Vietnam engage in full time  creative career of screwing the Vietnamese government (Laos and Cambodian too I assume) out of its high taxes! At many other tourists’ attractions in Vietnam where foreign tourists are charged 10 times Vietnamese for admission, in the range of US$5 to US$10, I was able to use my thick Hanoi-accented Vietnamese to impress upon the gate keepers that I was an undercover security police on inspection mission.  Of course I was allowed free admission and granted a lot of other privileges and perks! I will ask for a thorough, personal inspection of your passionate wife and daughters on the spot next time, dear comrade Thanouxay. Capitalists’ tools work wonder in Communist countries! VIET THIET – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dough, Thank you for updating us with nominal rate for the toll from Hanoi to Noi Bai. I have been travelling tens of times on this route and had never encountered such so-called US$ 5 extorsion as fabricated by this "respectable" Viet Thiet. If my calculation is right, Viet Thiet is a shameless liar and a real trouble maker. On top of it, he was "intelligent" enough to reveal the real purpose of his visit to Mexico and that is to find out some "cheap fuck"… With regard of this kind of traveller, I do strongly think that Laos and its neighbour Viet Nam, better kick out of their respective country as soon as this garbage landed at our airport. sok dee Thanouxay Between Noi Bai and Ha Noi, there is a new bridge whose toll costs all vehicles about $5 each way . . . . . . At about 14,000 VND per US dollar, that would be about 70,000 VND if you were correct. You aren’t, of course, but that should surprise no one. The tolls on that bridge and the specially built airport highway (the toll is for both) are as follows: Car   –            12,000 VND Bus (9-30 seats) – 20,000 VND Bus (31-50 seats – 30,000 VND Doug

Response:

It’s true that the VCP keeps their officals’ salaries very low compared to the cost of living, that it’s well known that people cannot live on government wages. They take on government jobs only to use the power and authority to make money on the side. Therefore, everywhere one goes, one has to grease palms.  Even government agencies have to bribe one another to conduct business!  That’s how corruption are widely accepted in Vietnam! Their poverty and hopelessness among the Hanoi government officials is sometimes heart rending! During my visit to Hanoi a year ago as a tourist, one of the middle-level managers of a state-owned company took the time during his normal work days to show me around Hanoi, introducing me to his family and friends. I was grateful for his friendship and the chance to learn first hand how they suffered during the war, the extremely limited means they presently have to contend with, and how well they manage to care for one another etc… At the end when I had to leave Hanoi, the official made it clear that he expected me to compensate him for his time taken from work, loudly complaining about his expenses while touring Hanoi with me, which made me reduce my level of regards I had for him, his ethics and his family!  While I complied with his request for payment, he could have had far more lucrative offers from me as a friend before he made his demand! This was a man who had travelled to many civilized countries to learn business practices, but when one is hungry, one is less likely to have very high regards for ethics! The "BIA OM" (literally translated – hugging beers), that George Moore mentioned, are protitution dens which proliferate everywhere in Vietnam. There is a very serious unemployment problem for women in Vietnam. A government officials even puts it at 90%! The women who do not want to do the hard labor and poor return of growing rice on the ever increasingly scarce farm land, have very few choices.  Most of them migrate to the city looking for better life styles, eventually have to resort to prostitution, or the hard work of cleaning hotels, to stay alive. The surplus supply of women turns just about every activity in Vietnam into "om," beer om, coffee om, hair cut om, massage om, facial om, fishing om, beaching om, bath om…as fronts for the prostitutes to ply their trade! These prostitutes and their touts are well known to be not so discreet, fighting noisily among themselves, pulling tourists off motorcycles into their stores… (this actually happened to me and my respectable old highschool teacher in saigon!) Considering that these prostitution dens are just about everywhere in Vietnam, from Hanoi to Saigon, the chance to catch some mysterious diseases via third, fourth, fifth…parties are very high! Official VN government statistics in 2000 puts the known number of prostitutes in the 200,000’s, with 1 out of 5 carrying HIV.  The true figures are most likely much higher! Extra medical precautions while visiting Vietnam are highly advised! VIET THIET – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would not even think about trying to change their system. Only the Vietnamese can do that.  However, the Vietnamese who have taken up residence in the U.S. and/or who have become citizens seem to adhere to a higher level of ethics than those who reside in Vietnam under the communists.  What I find disturbing is that if the corruption has become moreso rampart in Vietnam one might be concerned about the flow of narcotics which has the tendency not only to corrupt the system — it is indicative of just how serious the nature of the corruption can have its impact on the spread of addiction and disease resulting from same. There has to be some reasoning for the massive growth of HIV cases in Vietnam.  One might say if they stay clear of the bars and prostitutes one does not have to worry. Such is not the case — people who developed HIV or full blown Aides tend to have no immune system response and therefore they are prone to a wide of disease including TB known to be capable of spreading among humans in Vietnam and to visitors as well.  Some people including myself refuse to travel to SF, CA where the issue of public health is so serious one may merely develop a wide range of infections just by talking and/or handling a telephone receiver. When traveling to Vietnam carrying a bottle of antibiotic soap(liquid or soap bars), or wipes just to keep your hands clean.  I know some people who have returned from Vietnam who have developed fevers of unknown origin. Reminds me of the days following the return of large numbers of troops in late 1966 with the same problem. One of the problems with most U.S. medical facilities is that there are very few people with backgrounds in tropical medicine which can spell problems for returning tourists seeking medical care. Restaurants in Vietnam do not meet the same health standards of restaurants in the U.S. which must meet health codes and inspections.  Carry band aids and tube of triple antibiotic ointment for cuts and abrasions. Of course you can listen to your tourist agent who will tell you everything is just fine in Vietnam and you will dam well know he or she is full of crap. I have traveled extensive in third world countries and have found the following to be true.  Please don’t associate understanding the system

Response:

Sleazy sex tour operators like Dog Grease are therefore given the red carpet treatment personally by the VCP politburo!

For those few of you who aren’t already aware – Viet Thiet is a liar. Put up or shut up, liar. Prove what you say or shut up. $1,000 says you can’t. How much are you willing to put up? For once, stop running your foul mouth, surprise me, and show a little backbone. Prove it or shut up. Doug Who is now waiting for the usual obscenity-filled reply which totally avoids addressing my request.

Response:

On top of it, he was "intelligent" enough to reveal the real purpose of his visit to Mexico and that is to find out some "cheap fuck"… sok dee Thanouxay

Sabaydi THanouxay, I am so shock by this language you use. We have many of the young and innocent one here in SCL. We can not use this kind of the language to give them the bad idea. If you  have the bad word, you have to use the and this kind of the thing. It is the civilize way in America call as Etiquette language. Hakpheng

Response:

The bribes and extortion money are finely divided up the chain of command of the Vietnamese Commnist Party and government, just like the MAFIA! All the lucrative jobs where the officials can extort / blackmail for money are sold to the highest bidders.  Custom jobs at major airports are reported to go for 50 ounces of gold, whereas street/highway patrol jobs for policemen in major cities, where they usually take cash from violators rather than writing tickets, go for 20 to 30 ounces! Flight attendant jobs for Vietnam Air cost 12 ounces….regardless whether they can read or write! My relatives have gone through all these job buying schemes with just about every government agencies in Vietnam! In Vietnam all competitions for jobs and privileges are based on how "red" one is. All college and advanced degrees can be easily purchased from corrupt educators and school administrators. To get jobs, one has to have impecable proletariat and revolutionary family backgrounds, lots of party connections, or one has to pay a lot of money.  Vietnam ends up being tp loaded with the most corrupt, the least competent people. This is why Vietnam under the corrupt Communist system will forever be the poorest, most oppressed, most corrupt, sleaziest country on earth! This is the main reason a large percentage of the people fo Vietnam must engage and benefit directly or indirectly from prostitution, drug traffiking and other vices, in discreet ways so as to save face for the Communist Party leadership! The VCP leaders know full well that their meal tickets come from income derived from foreign tourists, who mostly seek the only commodity readily available very cheaply in vietnam: PROSTITUTES! Who ever come to stone-age Communist Vietnam for any other recreation? None is available anyway! Sleazy sex tour operators like Dog Grease are therefore given the red carpet treatment personally by the VCP politburo! VIET THIET – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don’t you mean to say that the money goes right into the pockets of those "bia om" workers? In fact, the next time you are there, why not ask the border guards directly about where the money goes? The question usually results in huge smiles!! And if you are really good, you can sometimes find the "bia om" just behind the border station! Those border guards are a riot! I wonder if their bosses know what goes on locally? Probably not… Cheers,

Response:

Dough, Thank you for updating us with nominal rate for the toll from Hanoi to Noi Bai. I have been travelling tens of times on this route and had never encountered such so-called US$ 5 extorsion as fabricated by this "respectable" Viet Thiet. If my calculation is right, Viet Thiet is a shameless liar and a real trouble maker. On top of it, he was "intelligent" enough to reveal the real purpose of his visit to Mexico and that is to find out some "cheap fuck"… With regard of this kind of traveller, I do strongly think that Laos and its neighbour Viet Nam, better kick out of their respective country as soon as this garbage landed at our airport. sok dee Thanouxay – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Between Noi Bai and Ha Noi, there is a new bridge whose toll costs all vehicles about $5 each way . . . . . . At about 14,000 VND per US dollar, that would be about 70,000 VND if you were correct. You aren’t, of course, but that should surprise no one. The tolls on that bridge and the specially built airport highway (the toll is for both) are as follows: Car   –            12,000 VND Bus (9-30 seats) – 20,000 VND Bus (31-50 seats – 30,000 VND Doug

Response:

As this stupid, ignorant, pitiful trash of a man below, who uses a dead man’s name as his screen name, and who cannot read or write English, or Vietnamese for that matter, pretends that he can find faults with Viet Thiet’s writing, he just shows the world the stupid, deceitful nature of the Communists! This desparate man, who woud stoop so low, try so hard, use any sort of trickeries to gain the notoriety and credibility with the people in SCV, just lost it all! This is how a small bunch of of stupid, ignorant, violent savages, calling themselves Communists, headed by Ho Chi Minh, lied, cheated, terrorized, murdered their ways to seize power of Vietnam, then brought the country into isolation, and forced the people to their knees, begging and prostituting to foreigners just for a few cups of rice at the end of the day! EL CHIMPO and his commie cohorts are dumber than dogs!  They are also shameless and brazen-faced like a bunch of monkeys. They deserve to be despised by everyone. VIET THIET – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – La.i the^m mo^.t tie^?u tu+? so^`n so^`n cu?a Viet [gian?]cong hoa [hoac cua ngo dinh diem hoac cua nguyen van thieu deu giong nhau]. Tie^?u tu+? na`y cu~ng dda(.t ba`y american-english [ddie^`u na`y kho^ng he^` gi`] nhu+ng muo^’n xua^’t co+` thi` i’t ra cu~ng bie^’t lu+o+.ng su+’c mi`nh cho+, vie^’t dda.i thi` vu+`a xa^’u ho^? cho ca’ nha^n chu’ vu+`a ho^? the.n cho ho^`n ma ngo dinh va nguyen van thieu co’ nhu+~ng thu+’ dde^. tu+? do^’t ma` la.i o^`n a`o the^’ na`y; thie^.t dda’m vgch na`y no’ thua co^.ng sa?n mie^`n Ba(‘c la` mo^.t ddie^`u dda.i phu+o+’c cho da^n ta. Ta va.ch nhu+~ng cho^~ sai tu`m lum ve^` american-english cu?a chu’ cho ma` xem na`y [ta khong correct da^u, ve^` ho?i ma^'y tha^`y o+? lo+'p esl o+? adult school ddo' [tie^?u tu+? ma` so vo+'i Le chino thi` gio^'ng nhu+ con chuo^.t chu` be^n ca.nh con su+ tu+? ddo'. Sau la^`n na`y thi` la(.n ddi chu' ma`y!]: Dda^y nhu+~ng cho^~ sai ta bo trong bracket do: EL CHIMPO repeated [ sai thu nhat --- use of extreme obscenity ](D. M.)in SCV shows him to be a sick, old, twisted little pervert, who would not stop [sai thu hai--- at raping] his own mother! [ sai thu ba: khong biet dung English phrase va` cu' pha'p---- EL must have been severely abused as a child, perhaps sodomized daily by his own stupid, ignorant commie dad, and his despicable, animalistic relatives in Hanoi, such that he continually let his [sai thu ba, chua biet gi ve Freud ma dam viet au, viet sai Psychoanalysis Terminology ------ oedipal complex show! El must be sitting around fantasizing about murdering his dad and raping his mom everyday!] [ chua biet cach su dung tu, dat cau, chuyen y [noi chung trinh do rat so dang ---- With his obscenity-filled posts in SCV, El only acts out his frustration [ chua biet cach dung gioi tu 'preposition' --- at the fact that noone takes him seriously for his shameless commies' boot licking act, hoping to make a few quick dollars off the communists for himself! Of course El will take the short cuts and engage in the oldest profession to get what he wants! EL is just a little common, uneducated, unprincipled trash, despised by both communists and anti-communists alike! VIET THIET [Tom tat: khong du trinh do English composition, ma` da'm vie^'t tie^'ng Anh, chu+a ddu? tri`nh do^. die^~n dda.t tu+ tu+o+?ng Viet ngu, thi` la`m sao da'm ca? gan di 'debate' hay 'chu+?i ' ngu+o+`i kha'c. Chu' ma^`y ne^n la(.n ddi dde^? kho?i xa^'u ca? nha` Vie^.t gian.  QUANG TRUNG DAI CO VIET Why I disagreed with Mr World Justice in practically all of his posts, I at least recognize that He tried to be truthfull at least in the

Response:

La.i the^m mo^.t tie^?u tu+? so^`n so^`n cu?a Viet [gian?]cong hoa [hoac cua ngo dinh diem hoac cua nguyen van thieu deu giong nhau]. Tie^?u tu+? na`y cu~ng dda(.t ba`y american-english [ddie^`u na`y kho^ng he^` gi`] nhu+ng muo^’n xua^’t co+` thi` i’t ra cu~ng bie^’t lu+o+.ng su+’c mi`nh cho+, vie^’t dda.i thi` vu+`a xa^’u ho^? cho ca’ nha^n chu’ vu+`a ho^? the.n cho ho^`n ma ngo dinh va nguyen van thieu co’ nhu+~ng thu+’ dde^. tu+? do^’t ma` la.i o^`n a`o the^’ na`y; thie^.t dda’m vgch na`y no’ thua co^.ng sa?n mie^`n Ba(‘c la` mo^.t ddie^`u dda.i phu+o+’c cho da^n ta. Ta va.ch nhu+~ng cho^~ sai tu`m lum ve^` american-english cu?a chu’ cho ma` xem na`y [ta khong correct da^u, ve^` ho?i ma^'y tha^`y o+? lo+'p esl o+? adult school ddo' [tie^?u tu+? ma` so vo+'i Le chino thi` gio^'ng nhu+ con chuo^.t chu` be^n ca.nh con su+ tu+? ddo'. Sau la^`n na`y thi` la(.n ddi chu' ma`y!]: Dda^y nhu+~ng cho^~ sai ta bo trong bracket do: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – EL CHIMPO repeated [ sai thu nhat --- use of extreme obscenity ](D. M.)in SCV shows him to be a sick, old, twisted little pervert, who would not stop [sai thu hai--- at raping] his own mother! [ sai thu ba: khong biet dung English phrase va` cu' pha'p---- EL must have been severely abused as a child, perhaps sodomized daily by his own stupid, ignorant commie dad, and his despicable, animalistic relatives in Hanoi, such that he continually let his [sai thu ba, chua biet gi ve Freud ma dam viet au, viet sai Psychoanalysis Terminology ------ oedipal complex show! El must be sitting around fantasizing about murdering his dad and raping his mom everyday!] [ chua biet cach su dung tu, dat cau, chuyen y [noi chung trinh do rat so dang —- With his obscenity-filled posts in SCV, El only acts out his frustration [ chua biet cach dung gioi tu ‘preposition’ — at the fact that noone takes him seriously for his shameless commies’ boot licking act, hoping to make a few quick dollars off the communists for himself! Of course El will take the short cuts and engage in the oldest profession to get what he wants! EL is just a little common, uneducated, unprincipled trash, despised by both communists and anti-communists alike! VIET THIET [Tom tat: khong du trinh do English composition, ma` da’m vie^’t tie^’ng Anh, chu+a ddu? tri`nh do^. die^~n dda.t tu+ tu+o+?ng Viet ngu, thi` la`m sao da’m ca? gan di ‘debate’ hay ‘chu+?i ‘ ngu+o+`i kha’c. Chu’ ma^`y ne^n la(.n ddi dde^? kho?i xa^’u ca? nha` Vie^.t gian.

QUANG TRUNG DAI CO VIET – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why I disagreed with Mr World Justice in practically all of his posts, I at least recognize that He tried to be truthfull at least in the

Response:

Between Noi Bai and Ha Noi, there is a new bridge whose toll costs all vehicles about $5 each way . . . . . .

At about 14,000 VND per US dollar, that would be about 70,000 VND if you were correct. You aren’t, of course, but that should surprise no one. The tolls on that bridge and the specially built airport highway (the toll is for both) are as follows: Car   –            12,000 VND Bus (9-30 seats) – 20,000 VND Bus (31-50 seats – 30,000 VND Doug

Response:

EL CHIMPO repeated use of extreme obscenity (D. M.)in SCV shows him to be a sick, old, twisted little pervert, who would not stop at raping his own mother! EL must have been severely abused as a child, perhaps sodomized daily by his own stupid, ignorant commie dad, and his despicable, animalistic relatives in Hanoi, such that he continually let his oedipal complex show! El must be sitting around fantasizing about murdering his dad and raping his mom everyday! With his obscenity-filled posts in SCV, El only acts out his frustration at the fact that noone takes him seriously for his shameless commies’ boot licking act, hoping to make a few quick dollars off the communists for himself! Of course El will take the short cuts and engage in the oldest profession to get what he wants! EL is just a little common, uneducated, unprincipled trash, despised by both communists and anti-communists alike! VIET THIET – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why I disagreed with Mr World Justice in practically all of his posts, I at least recognize that He tried to be truthfull at least in the

Response:

Why I disagreed with Mr World Justice in practically all of his posts, I at least recognize that He tried to be truthfull at least in the details (the Devils are in the details!) in his posts so He might preserve some credibility with his Anti Communist followers. Mr Vietthiet is a schizophrenic psychopath.  On one hand he used sexual innuendos to accuse people he know nothing about of which Mr Reese of conducting sex tours, Mr Justice of various sexual offenses for money or not and El Chino his Bete noire, his Jesus Christ he prayed to everyday of kissing VC asses,  are examples! (In a previous post I analysed Mr Vietthiet’s psychpathology as being sexually frustrated.  His obsession with Asses pointed to a latent or overt Homosexuality) On the other hand, He claimed to be advisor to the Politburo members of the VCP, travel up-and-down Vietnam insulting the VC or collecting information where to find sex.  Now He did it in Mexico as well ! All this pointed to a grave state of self delusion or frustrated Megalomania unsuccessfully controlled by visiting whorehouses! We should put VIETTHOT in the same Category as Veekhung, i.e., sexually repressed old men who use SCV as a Group Therapy medium. Elchino Boat People’s conscience had castrated him so thoroughly that he is now incapable of producing a coherent thought. The poor quality of his posts brought to nought his credibility forcing him to make outlandish claims such as this "advisory" role for the VCP Politburo. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have spent a lot of time in Vietnam on business and have mingled with the top party and government officials. Vietnam is a country corrupt from top to bottom. Corruption, cheating and gouging are everywhere. VIETTHIET has been calling everyone else who even suggested the idea of talking to Hanoi’s officials as pimps and whores, yet VIETTHIET admitted that he did businesses and spent a lot of time in Vietnam with party officials.  What a hypocrite! You can guess where I spend all my vacations! VIET THIET PS: Mexican customs (won’t tell you where) even allowed me to fly a beautiful girl, with no passport or any ID, to Cabo San Lucas for a great vacation…That’s how friendly the Mexican law can be if you genuinely try to speak Spanish to them…. What is this? VIETTHIET has been on illegal sex tour in Mexico yet he charged that the entire population of women in Vietnam are either sexually abused or sold as prostitutes by Hanoi. Go to soc.culture.vietnamese and search for all of VIETTHIET’s posts. Everyone can see that VIETTHIET is a double-standard double-face and a sick man. He acted as an anti-communist calling Hanoi as the place where prostitutes are sold by officials.  Now he showed the world that he is on illegal (bringing a beautiful girl with no passport and no ID through the border etc.) sex tour in Mexico. Now we all know why he is so familiar with sex tours.  He is a big client. World Justice

Response:

Shame on you. . . . again. Doug – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The only SEX in this tour was what was burning inside Dog Grease’s old, ugly and horny mother as she cleans the sheets and vacumm the floor of the Mexican resort… VIET THIET PS: Mexican customs (won’t tell you where) even allowed me to fly a beautiful girl, with no passport or any ID, to Cabo San Lucas for a great vacation…That’s how friendly the Mexican law can be if you genuinely try to speak Spanish to them…. What is this? Sounds like some sort of sex tour to me. Shame on you! Doug

Response:

VIETTHIET has been calling everyone else who even suggested the idea of talking to Hanoi’s officials as pimps and whores, yet VIETTHIET admitted that he did businesses and spent a lot of time in Vietnam with party officials.  What a hypocrite!

Feeding monkeys does not make one a monkey! PS: Mexican customs (won’t tell you where) even allowed me to fly a beautiful girl, with no passport or any ID, to Cabo San Lucas for a great vacation…That’s how friendly the Mexican law can be if you genuinely try to speak Spanish to them…. What is this? VIETTHIET has been on illegal sex tour in Mexico yet he charged that the entire population of women in Vietnam are either sexually abused or sold as prostitutes by Hanoi.

Ms. Just Tits is still trying to deny that prostitution is the biggest industry in Vietnam! That a very large percentage of businesses and people in Vietnam derive their living directly and indirectly from prostitution! Everywhere one goes, men, women, children, cab drivers, cyclos are all out selling prostitutes! There have been many reports in the party-controlled press about rampant prostitutes performing sex acts on streets and parks in Saigon and Hanoi, even in the Hoa Lo Hilton Museum, sometimes in broad day light! Only Hanoi has the notoriety of an old college professor, Son Do, who would beat, rape and black mail dozens of his young students into prostitution for the wealthy Communist party apparachiks! How many more Son Do have not been caught? Commercial sex aspracticed by Ms. Just Tits is completely different from flying your girl friend to Cabo for a vacation!  If Ms. Justtits jumps into bed with her syphyllis-ridden boyfriends, is she taking sex tours? Like street girls in Vietnam,  Ms. Just Tits pretends she doesn’t know what sex is, but if someone flashes a few dolar bills, then she is all business….  What a flaming hypocrite she is! Ms. Justtits could not argue on issues so she must attack VIETTHIET with her trashy smear campaign!  And she uses a screen name that laugh! Is the ugly, smelly and therefore sexless Ms. Just Tits getting jealous? VIETTHIET

Response:

The only SEX in this tour was what was burning inside Dog Grease’s old, ugly and horny mother as she cleans the sheets and vacumm the floor of the Mexican resort… VIET THIET – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PS: Mexican customs (won’t tell you where) even allowed me to fly a beautiful girl, with no passport or any ID, to Cabo San Lucas for a great vacation…That’s how friendly the Mexican law can be if you genuinely try to speak Spanish to them…. What is this? Sounds like some sort of sex tour to me. Shame on you! Doug

Response:

I have spent a lot of time in Vietnam on business and have mingled with the top party and government officials. Vietnam is a country corrupt from top to bottom. Corruption, cheating and gouging are everywhere.

VIETTHIET has been calling everyone else who even suggested the idea of talking to Hanoi’s officials as pimps and whores, yet VIETTHIET admitted that he did businesses and spent a lot of time in Vietnam with party officials.  What a hypocrite! You can guess where I spend all my vacations! VIET THIET PS: Mexican customs (won’t tell you where) even allowed me to fly a beautiful girl, with no passport or any ID, to Cabo San Lucas for a great vacation…That’s how friendly the Mexican law can be if you genuinely try to speak Spanish to them….

What is this? VIETTHIET has been on illegal sex tour in Mexico yet he charged that the entire population of women in Vietnam are either sexually abused or sold as prostitutes by Hanoi. Go to soc.culture.vietnamese and search for all of VIETTHIET’s posts. Everyone can see that VIETTHIET is a double-standard double-face and a sick man. He acted as an anti-communist calling Hanoi as the place where prostitutes are sold by officials.  Now he showed the world that he is on illegal (bringing a beautiful girl with no passport and no ID through the border etc.) sex tour in Mexico. Now we all know why he is so familiar with sex tours.  He is a big client. World Justice

Response:

PS: Mexican customs (won’t tell you where) even allowed me to fly a beautiful girl, with no passport or any ID, to Cabo San Lucas for a great vacation…That’s how friendly the Mexican law can be if you genuinely try to speak Spanish to them….

What is this? Sounds like some sort of sex tour to me. Shame on you! Doug

Response:

Since one could also be nailed for bribing, I had to tough it out, demanding, in very loud voice, that the officials in charge check out my visa and resolve the problems!   They let me go through with sly smiles…

So you didn’t actually have to pay any bribes then, did you! Between Noi Bai and Ha Noi, there is a new bridge whose toll costs all

I don’t think its new – its been there 5 years or so… The variety of taxis I’ve used have never used second hand tickets. (A counterfoil is retained as the ticket is torn.) Not saying it never happens though…. You say: Mexico, compared to Vietnam, is cleaner, safer, less hassled, far more civilized

but then: PS: Mexican customs (won’t tell you where) even allowed me to fly a beautiful girl, with no passport or any ID, to Cabo San Lucas for a great vacation…That’s how friendly the Mexican law can be

It seems you are ranking Mexico ahead of Vietnam on the basis of your ability to corrupt local officials. I think that says more about you and Mexico than it says about Vietnam. Jim

Response:

I was blatantly hassled for bribes many times by Vietnamese Communist Custom officials arriving and departing at both Tan Son Nhut and Noi Bai airport! Since one could also be nailed for bribing, I had to tough it out, demanding, in very loud voice, that the officials in charge check out my visa and resolve the problems!   They let me go through with sly smiles… Between Noi Bai and Ha Noi, there is a new bridge whose toll costs all vehicles about $5 each way (roughly a week salary for a teacher – all public utilities are  very expensive in vietnam, relative to cost of living, as a policy to gouge tourists!). To prevent cheats, the toll is sold by a ticket booth manned by a few policemen, to be checked and collected by other policeman down the road.  The cab drivers, however had worked out arrangements with both the ticket sellers and ticket checkers, to pay $1 at each stage to be able to use an old ticket, saving himself $3 for each passage. I have spent a lot of time in Vietnam on business and have mingled with the top party and government officials. Vietnam is a country corrupt from top to bottom. Corruption, cheating and gouging are everywhere. Eventhough Vietnam was my country of birth, it’s very sad to admit that presently the psychology of cheating, extorting, gouging, stealing and aggression seem to be ingrained in a very large percentage of the population in Vietnam. People in Hanoi tend to be more traditional, even submissive, nice, sweet, helpful, less aggressive. People in South Vietnam are far ruder and more aggresive, and will blatantly try to take advantage of tourists at every turn. Since the criminal laws in Vietnam is very vague,  it is safer for tourists to assume that every local government officials can throw them in jail for long term without any legal process, and they are most likely to extort, harm and steal from the people in need! I have traveled to just about every state in Mexico, a poor third world country, doing business and spending long vacations there.  In contrast, the people of Mexico, even in poor and rural areas, are far more honest, friendly, upfront and helpful with tourists, even for someone who cannot speak the language.  They sell everything at the same prices to locals or tourists.  I never had a problem or was cheated in Mexico!  NOT EVEN ONCE in my hundreds of trips to Mexico! Unlike Vietnam whose Communist government sets higher prices for tourists and actively forces the tourist-related services to gouge and cheat tourists by imposing high taxes…. Mexico, compared to Vietnam, is cleaner, safer, less hassled, far more civilized and fun for tourists. Mexico with  clean beaches, warm water, good food, honest, fun and friendly people, low crimes, large varieties of arts, crafts, jewelry,  reasonable prices, great parties, and many water sports, great big game fishing  ( Vietnamese tunas only grow to 12 inch maximum before they are dynamited out of the water…) is much better place to do business or to vacation.  My top Mexico vacation spots :  Cancun, Isla Cozumel, Acapulco, Cabo San Lucas, Guadalajara, Puerta Vallarta, Ixtapa, Ensenada…. You can guess where I spend all my vacations! VIET THIET PS: Mexican customs (won’t tell you where) even allowed me to fly a beautiful girl, with no passport or any ID, to Cabo San Lucas for a great vacation…That’s how friendly the Mexican law can be if you genuinely try to speak Spanish to them…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It may be old information; but, my wife and I were shaken down by customs guards at Tan Son Nyut Airport. And it was very subtle.  It turned into a very vocal argument concerning the amount of the bribe.  The price went down from $50 to $20.  Of course, the shakedown at the Hanoi Airport was far more subtle.

Response:

Question:

Al, you are inviting PETA here?  That is tantamount to inviting meowers here.  Sometimes you are amusing, but now you have gone too far, if this is your intent. —    Go Fishing.  And may your fish be as big as your tales.    Columbia, SC  Lake Murray

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was at walmart last night and i didn’t see Steve (Stoner Lake) there. Walmart is quite the place for tackle. I was looking for live bait harnesses. Couldn’t find any. Probably because there isn’t a big market for them. Is there any instrucions anywhere how to make them for frogs, crickets, grasshoppers, hellgramights, crayfish etc. Also is part of the aversion to livebait the fact that you are sacrificing livebait for fishing. But fishing is hooking fish so what’s the big deal i was wondering what Peta types would think of it. Al

Response:

Bob writes: Al, you are inviting PETA here?  That is tantamount to inviting meowers here.  Sometimes you are amusing, but now you have gone too far, if this is your intent. —   Go Fishing.  And may your fish be as big as your tales.   Columbia, SC  Lake Murray

Bob If i feel like it I’ll invite a peta type who is also a jetskier. How does that grab you? Al

Response:

I was looking for live bait harnesses. Couldn’t find any. Probably because there isn’t a big market for them. Is there any instrucions anywhere how to make them for frogs, crickets, grasshoppers, hellgramights, crayfish etc.

OK Al, here’s something that will help you out, I found it in an outdoor magazine.  The entire ad is as follows: "Bait Stick" is a stretchy, sticky glue that will attach live insects to a hook.  Wrap a match-head-sized glob on a hook and touch the glue to an ant, salmon egg…whatever.  The bug won’t die because the glue is non-toxic; instead, the insect will thrash and kick around.  Can you think of a better fish attractant?  The glue never dries out and continues to work underwater. Insects will even stay attached when being cast with a fly rod.  ($7.50; 734-676-7772) There, now quit worrying about finding a harness to fish your live bait from.  Call the phone number, part with $7.50 US and go feed some fish. Also is part of the aversion to livebait the fact that you are sacrificing

livebait for fishing. But fishing is hooking fish so what’s the big deal The aversion has nothing to do with "sacrificing" livebait.  The aversion lies in the fact that often times while fishing livebait, a fish is gut hooked, rendering them unreleasable, or if you do, there is a strong possibility that the fish will die.  If you are paying attention to the overall attitude of the members of this newsgroup, you will notice that the majority of us would rather fish, catching and releasing them to enjoy another day.  I’m sure that most of us release in excess of 90% of the fish we catch.  It’s harder to do when the fish are gut hooked as happens more often when fishing livebait.  Also, many members feel that there is more skill involved in fooling a fish into striking an artificial than to feed livebait to a bass.  To many of us, it’s not the actual fish being caught, it’s the process of getting the strike in the first place that trips our triggers.  And if you don’t understand that, maybe you should take up golf. i was wondering what Peta types would think of it.

My thoughts on what PETA types would think of it???   Who cares??? —

Response:

I was at walmart last night and i didn’t see Steve (Stoner Lake) there. Walmart is quite the place for tackle. I was looking for live bait harnesses. Couldn’t find any. Probably because there isn’t a big market for them. Is there any instrucions anywhere how to make them for frogs, crickets, grasshoppers, hellgramights, crayfish etc. Also is part of the aversion to livebait the fact that you are sacrificing livebait for fishing. But fishing is hooking fish so what’s the big deal i was wondering what Peta types would think of it. Al

Response:

lso is part of the aversion to livebait the fact that you are sacrificing livebait for fishing. But fishing is hooking fish so what’s the big deal i was wondering what Peta types would think of it. Al

Hello Albert,   Have you ever had a mess of crickets get loose n your truck or had earthworms bust out in your fridge and crawl on the meatloaf or had a minnow jump out the bucket and wedge his way underneath the seat where he would stay and stink for Tommy Rilee

Response:

Hello Albert,   Have you ever had a mess of crickets get loose n your truck or had earthworms bust out in your fridge and crawl on the meatloaf or had a minnow jump out the bucket and wedge his way underneath the seat where he would stay and stink for Tommy Rilee

Tom No i have never had that happen to me. I’ve heard the fridge thing before. Rotting minnows under a seat make a fishing boat smell like what it should smell like. I’m not afraid of the bait or getting my hands dirty. If your afraid of the bait how are you with the fish. It’s best to think like your quarry (fish) then you will have no qualms about the bait. Al

Response:

Al, if you try and analyze what the PETA people think, it’ll drive you crazy, because they are crazy.  I’m not any proponent of hurting animals needlessly, and would never do it purposely.  I used to hunt (a lot when younger) and fished both then and now, and it doesn’t bother me to eat what I shot or caught, which meant having to dispatch them.  PETA nuts equate the equality of animals to people.  I don’t.  That includes live bait.  If you’re interested in live bait harnesses, you can probably find them on line at BPS or Cabela’s. Warren2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was at walmart last night and i didn’t see Steve (Stoner Lake) there. Walmart is quite the place for tackle. I was looking for live bait harnesses. Couldn’t find any. Probably because there isn’t a big market for them. Is there any instrucions anywhere how to make them for frogs, crickets, grasshoppers, hellgramights, crayfish etc. Also is part of the aversion to livebait the fact that you are sacrificing livebait for fishing. But fishing is hooking fish so what’s the big deal i was wondering what Peta types would think of it. Al

Response:

Question:

No doubt, Chan is the expert. He and Skip Morris have a new book, called Morris and Chan on Fly Fishing Trout Lakes, Frank Amato publications. It is an excellent book, and well worth the investment. It really will improve you lake fishing overall. Another good source on lake and midge fishing is Chan’s video Flyfishing Stillwaters Vol II. You won’t be dissapointed. I had the privledge of Meeting Brian Chan when staying at a lodge in the Kamloops area. He is a fisheries biologist, and came to the lodge to do some assesment and management work. He is quite a nice fellow. Tim Lysyk

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve just learned that a lake I will be going to this spring contains a great chironomid hatch (Thanks Will).  Unfortunately, in my 7 years of FF’ing, I’ve never really been inclined to explore the possibilities of chironomids.   I’ve heard wonderful things about it and now, I have reason to actually make an effort to learn as much as I can about fishing them. I understand that you are basically supposed to just let it drift on a fine long leader with a strike indicator, without retrieving line (am I wrong?). It actually sounds a bit boring…. I have dreadful visions of fishing Well, Ken, you almost have it right.  Most Americans I meet in Canada and here in the states do fish with a bobber and never feel the take.  But the Canadians do it better….floating line (they alternate two rods each with a single fly), let it sink and just work the fly near the bottom finger over finger. Very slowly.  You will feel the take and have a ball.  Look up Brian Chan of Fish B.C. on the web….he often writes about fishing chironomids. Good Luck. Fred

Response:

Mike, Lake fishing here, we regularly get the chance to fish a fourth stage – midge balls. The adults have orgies in the evenings, often during or after hatches. We palmer a grizzly hackle on size 14, 16 or 18 hooks. Like Ernie was saying – The fly imitates the balls of midges clustered together exchanging body fluids.

That’s interesting John. They have ‘balling buzzers’ in Ireland, just as you describe and imitate them with a similar pattern (hook tightly palmered with a grizzle hackle and maybe a red game hackle in the centre of the ‘ball’). Strangely, I have never come across this phenomenon on the English reservoirs. We might not have the species that does this. BTW, sorry guys for my earlier thread coming through in triplicate. I don’t know what’s going on. I only sent it once and it has happened somewhere else, too. Interesting thread, though. Some very informative links. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

Lake fishing here, we regularly get the chance to fish a fourth stage – midge balls. The adults have orgies in the evenings, often during or after hatches.

ok…you guys are obviously napping.  time was this would have gotten at least 4 or 5 erudite comments… jeff

Response:

Lake fishing here, we regularly get the chance to fish a fourth stage – midge balls. The adults have orgies in the evenings, often during or after hatches. ok…you guys are obviously napping.  time was this would have gotten at least 4 or 5 erudite comments… jeff

        right you are, jeffie; but a moment such as that, once lost, can never be recaptured.  i put it down to age. wayno

Response:

Hi fellow FF’ers. Can any of you shed some light on chironomids: methods, techniques, leaders

Ken, I’d love to help but I had mine removed years ago. Sorry. Kiyu

Response:

I bought a chironomid when I was in the service, best damn wrist watch I ever had. Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi fellow FF’ers. Can any of you shed some light on chironomids: methods, techniques, leaders Ken,

Response:

I picked up the book The Gilly, a Flyfishers Guide by Alfred Davy when I was in BC.  It was pretty good.  It has a little red sticker that says: national best seller.  I think they have to sell 25 books in Canada before it’s a best seller…  just kidding now, don’t get that Candadian blood all heated up.  Keep yer stick on the ice. Most places in BC they use pretty large flies.  Your standard variety western topwater flies will all work, but the rules are reversed as to size (in MT smaller is usually better).  In BC, larger is usually better.  I didn’t fish chronomids but I heard about the slow bottom and slowly rising to the surface film presentations of large chronomids (size 12 & 10, but it’s been a couple of yrs… I may be wrong there). Lake Louis in Bannf Prov Park is the best mtns in N Am, some say.  You might try and go there if you can. Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bob Church, Tom Saville and Charles Jardine have all written decent books on this subject.

Response:

Tony, Downunder we have stacks of midge fishing but our midges are all very small (all in the #20s). It’s not uncommon to have a hundred fish in one bay going berserk, gorging on midges every night at the peak of summer. IMO it’s the only time Aussie trout get terribly selective in the flies they take. Midge balls are fun because you get the surface takes and sometimes the trout will really chase them. It’s very hard to fish single emergers or adults – some guys do well with #18 or #20 klinkhammers – but you need much more light to keep track of your fly. Cheers JK

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike, Lake fishing here, we regularly get the chance to fish a fourth stage – midge balls. The adults have orgies in the evenings, often during or after hatches. We palmer a grizzly hackle on size 14, 16 or 18 hooks. Like Ernie was saying – The fly imitates the balls of midges clustered together exchanging body fluids. That’s interesting John. They have ‘balling buzzers’ in Ireland, just as you describe and imitate them with a similar pattern (hook tightly palmered with a grizzle hackle and maybe a red game hackle in the centre of the ‘ball’). Strangely, I have never come across this phenomenon on the English reservoirs. We might not have the species that does this. BTW, sorry guys for my earlier thread coming through in triplicate. I don’t know what’s going on. I only sent it once and it has happened somewhere else, too. Interesting thread, though. Some very informative links. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

I picked up the book The Gilly, a Flyfishers Guide by Alfred Davy when I was in BC.  It was pretty good.  It has a little red sticker that says: national best seller.  I think they have to sell 25 books in Canada before it’s a best seller…  just kidding now, don’t get that Candadian blood all heated up.  Keep yer stick on the ice. Most places in BC they use pretty large flies.  Your standard variety western topwater flies will all work, but the rules are reversed as to size (in MT smaller is usually better).  In BC, larger is usually better.  I didn’t fish chronomids but I heard about the slow bottom and slowly rising to the surface film presentations of large chronomids (size 12 & 10, but it’s been a couple of yrs… I may be wrong there). Lake Louis in Bannf Prov Park is the best mtns in N Am, some say.

We have some pretty large chironomids here in the British Isles. The large black and the orange/silver (Grey Boy) can be imitated on 10 and 12. The famous Irish ‘Duck Fly’ is probably about a 12. We would probably go down to 14 and 16 for the smaller ginger, olive and apple green species. Only a few of the more skilful still water fly fishers of my acquaintance bother with chironomid imitations of 18 or smaller. They can be very successful when they do so, but a 20 hook or anything smaller must be regard as a rarity on a British still water. Mostly, we get away with patterns dressed skinny and short on what most Americans would regard as ‘large’ hooks. From John Knight’s comments, the general run of chironomids on his Australian waters are rather smaller in size than we have here. If anyone is really interested in the entomology of these insects: ‘The Chironomidae – The biology and ecology of non-biting midges’, edited by Armitage, Cranston & Pinder. Pub. Chapman Hall. ISBN 0 412 45260 X Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

Mike, Lake fishing here, we regularly get the chance to fish a fourth stage – midge balls. The adults have orgies in the evenings, often during or after hatches. We palmer a grizzly hackle on size 14, 16 or 18 hooks. Like Ernie was saying – The fly imitates the balls of midges clustered together exchanging body fluids. The balls move around on the surface and are reminiscent of those drops of water that sometimes can’t break the surface tension. Because of the random movement, you can very slowly retrieve the fly, allowing you to feel when a trout grabs it among all the other rises and balls. Finding good protected  bays with hatches night after night is the trick. Cheers JK

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ken wrote <<  I’ve just learned that a lake I will be going to this spring contains a great chironomid hatch (Thanks Will).  Unfortunately, in my 7 years of FF’ing, I’ve never really been inclined to explore the possibilities of chironomids.   I’ve heard wonderful things about it and now, I have reason to actually make an effort to learn as much as I can about fishing them. Can any of you shed some light on chironomids: methods, techniques, leaders (lengths), strike indicators (distance away from fly)… anything at all. I understand that you are basically supposed to just let it drift on a fine long leader with a strike indicator, without retrieving line (am I wrong?). It actually sounds a bit boring…. I have dreadful visions of fishing chironomids as I see many similarities of float fishing with a worm and a bobber.  Is that true?  (please prove me wrong!) Well Ken, you are partially right.  Fishing chironimids can be REALLY boring and it does resemble fishing with a worm and bobber at

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – it can also provide dynamite fishing at times. There are basically 3 main stages of the midge hatch to be concerned with and I will do my best to butcher it for you. In the first stage I believe it is known as the larva.  The insect resembles a small red worm.  This is often called a blood worm and the fish go nuts for them.  I would make sure to have some flies tied up with red v-rib or thread and some red or pink floss off the end so it flutters in the water.   Fish these on a longer leader and a strike indicator. Phase two is the pupal stage and this is what is referred to as the chironomid stage.  You have to experiement a bit on depth to find where the fish are feeding.  It could be right off the bottom all the way up to the surface film. I would make sure to take a good selection of sizes in black, green and red. The bead head varient also works well and it sinks quickly.  You can fish this pattern on a drift if there is a small breeze or if it is dead still, slowly twitch it. The final phase is the emerger.  The midge is in the surface film drying its wings and shedding its casing.  If you see lots of surface action then the fish are hitting these either on top or just right before they reach the surface.  A Griffith nat is a good pattern for feeding on the surface since it imitates several midges bunched together.  There are also several emerger patterns of chironomids that use a small piece of foam for the wing casing that allow it to float right in the surface film. Good luck and have a great trip. Mike Wilson

Response:

Hi Ken, Check out the site below, Brian Chan is the guru of chironomid fishing from Canada. Confessions of a Chironomid Addict Vic – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi fellow FF’ers. I stumbled upon this newsgroup one evening about a week ago and glanced at a few threads hoping to find some answers to some issues I had regarding new lines for a rod. Now it seems I’m totally absorbed as I check ROFF out almost as often as I check my e-mails.   Really scary stuff.   ROFF’s enlightening and humourous.. what more can you ask for? Can any of you shed some light on chironomids: methods, techniques, leaders (lengths), strike indicators (distance away from fly)… anything at all. I see many similarities of float fishing with a worm and a bobber.  Is that true?  (please prove me wrong!) Hoping you can stir some excitement into a new realm of fly fishing for me. Thanks! Ken.

– http://home.earthlink.net/~vicbrockett

Response:

I’ve just learned that a lake I will be going to this spring contains a great chironomid hatch (Thanks Will).  Unfortunately, in my 7 years of FF’ing, I’ve never really been inclined to explore the possibilities of chironomids.   I’ve heard wonderful things about it and now, I have reason to actually make an effort to learn as much as I can about fishing them. I understand that you are basically supposed to just let it drift on a fine long leader with a strike indicator, without retrieving line (am I wrong?). It actually sounds a bit boring…. I have dreadful visions of fishing

Well, Ken, you almost have it right.  Most Americans I meet in Canada and here in the states do fish with a bobber and never feel the take.  But the Canadians do it better….floating line (they alternate two rods each with a single fly), let it sink and just work the fly near the bottom finger over finger.  Very slowly.  You will feel the take and have a ball.  Look up Brian Chan of Fish B.C. on the web….he often writes about fishing chironomids. Good Luck. Fred

Response:

There are several articles and fly patterns for chironomid fishing at:           http://www.rural.escape.ca/angling_north/fishing/organz.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi fellow FF’ers. Can any of you shed some light on chironomids: methods, techniques, leaders (lengths), strike indicators (distance away from fly)… anything at all. Ken.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi fellow FF’ers. I stumbled upon this newsgroup one evening about a week ago and glanced at a few threads hoping to find some answers to some issues I had regarding new lines for a rod. Now it seems I’m totally absorbed as I check ROFF out almost as often as I check my e-mails.   Really scary stuff.   ROFF’s enlightening and humourous.. what more can you ask for? Anyways,  back to the reason why I’m making a new post. I’ve just learned that a lake I will be going to this spring contains a great chironomid hatch (Thanks Will).  Unfortunately, in my 7 years of FF’ing, I’ve never really been inclined to explore the possibilities of chironomids.   I’ve heard wonderful things about it and now, I have reason to actually make an effort to learn as much as I can about fishing them. Can any of you shed some light on chironomids: methods, techniques, leaders (lengths), strike indicators (distance away from fly)… anything at all. I understand that you are basically supposed to just let it drift on a fine long leader with a strike indicator, without retrieving line (am I wrong?). It actually sounds a bit boring…. I have dreadful visions of fishing chironomids as I see many similarities of float fishing with a worm and a bobber.  Is that true?  (please prove me wrong!) Hoping you can stir some excitement into a new realm of fly fishing for me. Thanks! Ken.

Hi Ken, Midge fishing is a lengthy subject.  Someone else pointed you to Chan’s web page – do read it.  Chan is a real authority on the subject.  I buy his books and read his articles – its good stuff.  I love midge fishing myself .  I don’t find it boring even if it is a bit lazy.  First, lake midges come in a huge size range, from about size 12 to 20+.  I always start with the larger end of the spectrum, or go to the nearest match to whats on the water.  I use a floating line and the largest tippet I can get away with, which is seldom larger than 3x.  4x florocarbon(sp?) is my usual.  Lay out a 40-50 foot cast down wind (to help keep the line straight) and use a very slow hand twist retrieve.  Go to the strike indicator if you need to cast across the wave action and can’t keep your line straight.  (or if you just like the visual indication).  There are many special circumstances that need to be mastered – check the literature for those.  One worthwhile trick I will describe is to use two flies when using the strike indicator.  Make one something like a Rickards Stillwater and the other any of the midge patterns.   When the midges are actively emerging ( and fish are visibly feeding near the surface) most fish will be caught within a couple feet of the surface.  Othertimes you may need to do whats necessary to fish near the bottom. Pickups while using the hand twist retrieve are always interesting, and varied. somtimes you just sense the line is moving and a fish will be there.  Other times fish will hit so hard they snap the tippet before you can react at all. That is part of the fun. Best of luck

Response:

There is nothing mystical or difficult about chironmid fishing at all. Neither is it boring. There two basic methods sinking line or floating – both work much the same. Get the fly to where the fish are feeding and move it in a way to imitate the rising chironmid pupae.The floating technique is most hyped but not necessarily the best.  In really deep water, sinking lines are the way to go – unless you want to spend most of your time waiting for the fly to sink. BC Chironmids are relatively large flies sized # 8 down to #16 cover virtually all sizes. TDC’s, frost bite chironmids, tunkwanamids and a variety of similar patterns all work. Carry a selection of colours – black, olive, brown, red  and green is fairly basic. I’ve done best with a very slow figure 8 retrieve. Retrieve as slowly as you think possible then cut the speed in half! Keep a straight line to the fly and you’ll feel a sublte weight when a fish takes. Actually using an indicator can be fun – since I was a kid I’ve gotten a big thrill watching a bobber dip into the water.. RalphH – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi fellow FF’ers. I stumbled upon this newsgroup one evening about a week ago and glanced at a few threads hoping to find some answers to some issues I had regarding new lines for a rod. Now it seems I’m totally absorbed as I check ROFF out almost as often as I check my e-mails.   Really scary stuff.   ROFF’s enlightening and humourous.. what more can you ask for? Anyways,  back to the reason why I’m making a new post. I’ve just learned that a lake I will be going to this spring contains a great chironomid hatch (Thanks Will).  Unfortunately, in my 7 years of FF’ing, I’ve never really been inclined to explore the possibilities of chironomids.   I’ve heard wonderful things about it and now, I have reason to actually make an effort to learn as much as I can about fishing them. Can any of you shed some light on chironomids: methods, techniques, leaders (lengths), strike indicators (distance away from fly)… anything at all. I understand that you are basically supposed to just let it drift on a fine long leader with a strike indicator, without retrieving line (am I wrong?). It actually sounds a bit boring…. I have dreadful visions of fishing chironomids as I see many similarities of float fishing with a worm and a bobber.  Is that true?  (please prove me wrong!) Hoping you can stir some excitement into a new realm of fly fishing for me. Thanks! Ken.

Response:

Midge info beyond what one could write here can be found at these sites: Entomology http://www.sci.ouc.bc.ca/fwsc/iwalker/intpanis/ Fishing info http://www.rural.escape.ca/angling_north/fishing/organz.htm Hope these help.   Joe — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Hi fellow FF’ers. I stumbled upon this newsgroup one evening about a week ago and glanced at a few threads hoping to find some answers to some issues I had regarding new lines for a rod. Now it seems I’m totally absorbed as I check ROFF out almost as often as I check my e-mails.   Really scary stuff.   ROFF’s enlightening and humourous.. what more can you ask for? Anyways,  back to the reason why I’m making a new post. I’ve just learned that a lake I will be going to this spring contains a great chironomid hatch (Thanks Will).  Unfortunately, in my 7 years of FF’ing, I’ve never really been inclined to explore the possibilities of chironomids.   I’ve heard wonderful things about it and now, I have reason to actually make an effort to learn as much as I can about fishing them. Can any of you shed some light on chironomids: methods, techniques, leaders (lengths), strike indicators (distance away from fly)… anything at all. I understand that you are basically supposed to just let it drift on a fine long leader with a strike indicator, without retrieving line (am I wrong?). It actually sounds a bit boring…. I have dreadful visions of fishing chironomids as I see many similarities of float fishing with a worm and a bobber.  Is that true?  (please prove me wrong!) Hoping you can stir some excitement into a new realm of fly fishing for me. Thanks! Ken.

Response:

Can any of you shed some light on chironomids: methods, techniques, leaders (lengths), strike indicators (distance away from fly)… anything at all.

Chironomids -non-biting midges- are a huge family of insects that occur just about everywhere and in a wide climatic range. The larval and pupal stages of many chironomid species exist in rivers and still waters. In still waters they are frequently the largest constituent of the invertebrate population and -as such- a major component of the diet of many species of fish. On British reservoirs, certainly, ‘buzzers’ (as they are often called here), are regarded as the most important flies to the imitative fly fisher. There have been countless patterns devised to imitate particularly the pupal form and, to a lesser extent, the larval and winged adult stages. If you want to know more about chironomid fishing, patterns etc., I would suggest you get hold of a British still water fly fishing book. Bob Church, Tom Saville and Charles Jardine have all written decent books on this subject. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

Hi Ken,   Chironomid fishing is difficult.  Some tiers tie a fly that resembles a group of midges on the water.  They think it improves the chances that a fish will take the fly in preference to the thousands that are on the water. Ernie

<snip Can any of you shed some light on chironomids: methods, techniques, leaders (lengths), strike indicators (distance away from fly)… anything at all.

<snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Ken.

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They are just the "nymph" stage of the midge. Here in Colorado these buzzers can be imitated using hooks up to about size 12. They can be very large. (Normal midge pupa are imitated by 18-24 size hooks. Don’t get bored. Fish the buzzer about 3-4 feet below a dry fly. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi fellow FF’ers. I stumbled upon this newsgroup one evening about a week ago and glanced at a few threads hoping to find some answers to some issues I had regarding new lines for a rod. Now it seems I’m totally absorbed as I check ROFF out almost as often as I check my e-mails.   Really scary stuff.   ROFF’s enlightening and humourous.. what more can you ask for? Anyways,  back to the reason why I’m making a new post. I’ve just learned that a lake I will be going to this spring contains a great chironomid hatch (Thanks Will).  Unfortunately, in my 7 years of FF’ing, I’ve never really been inclined to explore the possibilities of chironomids.   I’ve heard wonderful things about it and now, I have reason to actually make an effort to learn as much as I can about fishing them. Can any of you shed some light on chironomids: methods, techniques, leaders (lengths), strike indicators (distance away from fly)… anything at all. I understand that you are basically supposed to just let it drift on a fine long leader with a strike indicator, without retrieving line (am I wrong?). It actually sounds a bit boring…. I have dreadful visions of fishing chironomids as I see many similarities of float fishing with a worm and a bobber.  Is that true?  (please prove me wrong!) Hoping you can stir some excitement into a new realm of fly fishing for me. Thanks! Ken.

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Ken wrote <<  I’ve just learned that a lake I will be going to this spring contains a great chironomid hatch (Thanks Will).  Unfortunately, in my 7 years of FF’ing, I’ve never really been inclined to explore the possibilities of chironomids.   I’ve heard wonderful things about it and now, I have reason to actually make an effort to learn as much as I can about fishing them. Can any of you shed some light on chironomids: methods, techniques, leaders (lengths), strike indicators (distance away from fly)… anything at all. I understand that you are basically supposed to just let it drift on a fine long leader with a strike indicator, without retrieving line (am I wrong?). It actually sounds a bit boring…. I have dreadful visions of fishing chironomids as I see many similarities of float fishing with a worm and a bobber.  Is that true?  (please prove me wrong!)

Well Ken, you are partially right.  Fishing chironimids can be REALLY boring it can also provide dynamite fishing at times. There are basically 3 main stages of the midge hatch to be concerned with and I will do my best to butcher it for you.   In the first stage I believe it is known as the larva.  The insect resembles a small red worm.  This is often called a blood worm and the fish go nuts for them.  I would make sure to have some flies tied up with red v-rib or thread and some red or pink floss off the end so it flutters in the water.   Fish these on a longer leader and a strike indicator. Phase two is the pupal stage and this is what is referred to as the chironomid stage.  You have to experiement a bit on depth to find where the fish are feeding.  It could be right off the bottom all the way up to the surface film. I would make sure to take a good selection of sizes in black, green and red. The bead head varient also works well and it sinks quickly.  You can fish this pattern on a drift if there is a small breeze or if it is dead still, slowly twitch it. The final phase is the emerger.  The midge is in the surface film drying its wings and shedding its casing.  If you see lots of surface action then the fish are hitting these either on top or just right before they reach the surface.  A Griffith nat is a good pattern for feeding on the surface since it imitates several midges bunched together.  There are also several emerger patterns of chironomids that use a small piece of foam for the wing casing that allow it to float right in the surface film. Good luck and have a great trip. Mike Wilson

Response:

Hi fellow FF’ers. I stumbled upon this newsgroup one evening about a week ago and glanced at a few threads hoping to find some answers to some issues I had regarding new lines for a rod. Now it seems I’m totally absorbed as I check ROFF out almost as often as I check my e-mails.   Really scary stuff.   ROFF’s enlightening and humourous.. what more can you ask for? Anyways,  back to the reason why I’m making a new post. I’ve just learned that a lake I will be going to this spring contains a great chironomid hatch (Thanks Will).  Unfortunately, in my 7 years of FF’ing, I’ve never really been inclined to explore the possibilities of chironomids.   I’ve heard wonderful things about it and now, I have reason to actually make an effort to learn as much as I can about fishing them. Can any of you shed some light on chironomids: methods, techniques, leaders (lengths), strike indicators (distance away from fly)… anything at all. I understand that you are basically supposed to just let it drift on a fine long leader with a strike indicator, without retrieving line (am I wrong?). It actually sounds a bit boring…. I have dreadful visions of fishing chironomids as I see many similarities of float fishing with a worm and a bobber.  Is that true?  (please prove me wrong!) Hoping you can stir some excitement into a new realm of fly fishing for me. Thanks! Ken.

Response:

Hi fellow FF’ers. I stumbled upon this newsgroup one evening about a week ago and glanced at a few threads hoping to find some answers to some issues I had regarding new lines for a rod. Now it seems I’m totally absorbed as I check ROFF out almost as often as I check my e-mails.   Really scary stuff.   ROFF’s enlightening and humourous.. what more can you ask for?

        well, it’s obvious that if you don’t already need psychiatric help, you soon will.  but if you’re (often spelled "your" by the dumbasses in this outfit) going to stay for a while, kindly adopt a handle that will distinguish your "ken-ness" from that of the several other "kens" around here.  if you don’t, you will be mystified at the hostile response your posts arouse, for no apparent reason. Can any of you shed some light on chironomids: methods, techniques, leaders (lengths), strike indicators (distance away from fly)… anything at all.

        unfortunately, since "chironomids" are simply little bitty ol yankee bugs that you can’t hardly see ( as folks say in rowan county, "they ain’t no bigger than a piss-ant!), and thereby of no interest to a self-respecting flyfisher, i am unable to provide information at the level i normally do. I see many similarities of float fishing with a worm and a bobber.  Is that true?  (please prove me wrong!)

        most folks around here can’t satisfactorily prove that the sun rose this morning. Hoping you can stir some excitement into a new realm of fly fishing for me.

        i know an ol boy from down in pitt county, name of pamlico jim, who makes excitement an integral part of fly fishing, not to speak of gettin there and comin back.  but he doesn’t know how to type.         your new pal in the old north state,         wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Thanks! Ken.

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Question:

Hi Bob, I have never fly fished for or oio in Hawaii.  I don’t fish much anymore since fishing is not that good.  I remember fishing for them with lures using ultralight spinning gear when they were more plentiful. I fished the shallow reefs especially in the sandy holes.  I used yellow feathered gig or buck tails.  Plastic lures worked too.  I would bounce them in the sand. I caught fish over five pounds.  Once I hooked them, I would walk out to them rather than reeling them in.  The coral would cut the line if I tried to reel them in.  I lost more fish than I brought in, but it sure was a lot of fun.  I fished ultrlight using four pound test line.  I’m sure you could use the same techniques using fly gear. One of my favorite places used to be on the reef across the channel from Ft. Derussey.  The shallow surf in Bellows produced small oio also. I’ve also caught them on reefs and sand bars in Kaneohe.  All this was ten-thirty years ago. Aloha, Fred E. Nakaguma Aiea, Hawaii I’d like to try for bonefish (Oio) here in Hawaii. I’m looking for someone who’s done it to get some ideas of where and how to start. I’m retired now and have the time to learn. Aloha – bob    ooo_ — http://www.aloha.net/~bgraham

– Sincerely, Fred E. Nakaguma Aiea, Hawaii

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I’d like to try for bonefish (Oio) here in Hawaii. I’m looking for someone who’s done it to get some ideas of where and how to start. I’m retired now and have the time to learn. Aloha – bob    ooo_ — http://www.aloha.net/~bgraham

Response:

Bob, I have been hearing of bonefish in Hawaii for fifteen years. I hope it is true. Remembering back, those bones were caught off the rocks. Start with a good shrimp, crust’s, or small minnow pattern. Then start changing your flylines. If you are fishing 8,9, or 10 weights… I have some lines (shooting heads and full sink), that I can send you for free. Just let me know your address. I would be more than willing to help in your quest. Bob, It is guys like you that search and find new undiscovered fisheries. God Bless You, and good luck. Sincerely, Capt. Greg Rahe

Response:

I’d like to try for bonefish (Oio) here in Hawaii. I’m looking for someone who’s done it to get some ideas of where and how to start. I’m retired now and have the time to learn. Aloha – bob    ooo_ — http://www.aloha.net/~bgraham

Hi Bob, There are bones in the ‘islands’, but they are referred to as ‘deep water’ bones. I think if you can find some water that is 2 feet deep, you might be successful. The south side of Molokai is all shallow flats. If you go there for a week, I think you might be able to find some bones on these shallow flats. Warmer weather is better, so I would not expect them to be on the ‘flats’ in cool weather. There is a guide out of the Hotel Molokai that can take you for bones and trevally. If you can ask around and find any other shallow areas, you might find some bones on any island. Catching bones in deep water on bait is not anything to get excited about. The big deal with bones is finding them in 12" of water about 100 yards from the drop off.  They like the incoming tide and feed on the bottom. An 8 weight rod, floating line, 9′ 0x leader, Crazy Charlies in Gold, Pearl or Pearl Orange, light colored Polarized glasses, hat, sun screen and foot protection are some of the essentials for bone fishing. Bill Kiene www.kiene.com

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! Just one warning from disappointed customer! I had an accident in last august and i broke my Orvis rod. Of course my rod has so called no questions asked quarantee for 25 years since i’m the original owner. So i left my rod in local dealer which send it to local importer – This all happened in during august last year and now it is the beginning of the fishing season and the rod is still in repair!! Nice work Orvis – it is the last of your rods that i’m going to buy! I would be even willing to pay for a decent repair time but this is ridiculous. May this Orvis 25year quarantee means that i have to now wait for 23 years to get my rod repaired… Disappointed customer -Timo ps. IMHO No questions asked quarantees are not good for fly fishing – i’m afraid that smaller rod makers will suffer eventually since the amount of broken rods will increase when the rods gets older…

Same with me Timo, I had similar problem with Orvis in the Netherlands. Their unconditional waranty works great in USA, but outside you will have to wait about a full year to get your repair done or your rod replaced. I changed to Sage and my local dealer replaces every broken (if ever) Sage immediately and gets his from Sage within a few weeks. Ger.

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I disagree, Dave. Having broken my PM-10 9′0" 8 wgt rod two years ago, I did some inquiries and found significant turnaround time between going thru the dealer and mailing it back directly to Orvis. My shipping costs were bearable given the fact that it was the height of saltwater season, and it took only 3 weeks to get it back.  Time is money, and when it comes to my fishing time, it’s worth $1000 an hour…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any Orvis dealer will take care of it for you.  Or you could ship directly to Orvis in Manchester, VT, but you’d pay the shipping charge.  Let your closest Orvis dealer do it.   Dave LaCourse

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<<I disagree, Dave. Having broken my PM-10 9′0" 8 wgt rod two years ago, I did some inquiries and found significant turnaround time between going thru the dealer and mailing it back directly to Orvis. My shipping costs were bearable given the fact that it was the height of saltwater season, and it took only 3 weeks to get it back. First time I broke a rod (tip in a door – dumb), it took 4 weeks — through the dealer.  Second time (butt – fell on it — dumb) it took two weeks.  We’re about even.   Dave L.

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When I needed my PM-10 9-wt replaced (I bought the rod for $145, on "clearance"), I walked into the Orvis Manchester, VT store, and the clerk walked into the back room and came out with a new rod.  I’d have to say it took about 30-40 seconds. Bob Scott Orvis fan

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well that’s still better than a Reddington which is worth nothing – – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -What do you expect them to do after you paid eight times what the rod cost to build? — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail I had great success with the Orvis guarantee.  I bought a trident in early 1997 that was a 1996 model discounted by about $100.00.  I broke the rod in the Summer of 1997 and returned it to my Orvis dealer here in Houston to get it repaired under the guarantee. The manager of the Houston store, Dave Haywood,  loaned me a replacement rod, a brand new Trident, and took my broken rod and sent it to Orvis in VT.  I didn’t even pay shipping charges.  Three weeks later Orvis sent me a brand new trident,  worth over $100.00 more than I had invested in the original rod.  I returned the loaner and have yet to spend a penny or to be inconvenienced much because of the broken rod.  When I think I could have been out a $400.00 rod I become ever more appreciative of the manner in which the whole affair was handled. I am not some crony of the store manager.  I met him when I bought the rod.  He had no reason to treat me any different than anyone else so I have to assume this is standard policy, at least here in the Houston area. It sounds like the troubles experienced with the guarantee are a function of the dealer.  I would bet a direct contact with the Orvis customer service people would get you the action you deserve. Tom

Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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Yes, I suppose the Reddington won’t be worth much either since Orvis bought them. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail GO TO http://users.ccnet.com/~emh FOR TRAVEL TIE BOX PLANS

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – well that’s still better than a Reddington which is worth nothing – What do you expect them to do after you paid eight times what the rod cost to build? — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail I had great success with the Orvis guarantee.  I bought a trident in early 1997 that was a 1996 model discounted by about $100.00.  I broke the rod in the Summer of 1997 and returned it to my Orvis dealer here in Houston to get it repaired under the guarantee. The manager of the Houston store, Dave Haywood,  loaned me a replacement rod, a brand new Trident, and took my broken rod and sent it to Orvis in VT. I didn’t even pay shipping charges.  Three weeks later Orvis sent me a brand new trident,  worth over $100.00 more than I had invested in the original rod.  I returned the loaner and have yet to spend a penny or to be inconvenienced much because of the broken rod.  When I think I could have been out a $400.00 rod I become ever more appreciative of the manner in which the whole affair was handled. I am not some crony of the store manager.  I met him when I bought the rod.  He had no reason to treat me any different than anyone else so I have to assume this is standard policy, at least here in the Houston area. It sounds like the troubles experienced with the guarantee are a function of the dealer.  I would bet a direct contact with the Orvis customer service people would get you the action you deserve. Tom Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

Response:

Finally, someone who understands the truth behind these "Guarantees". – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -What do you expect them to do after you paid eight times what the rod cost to build? — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail I had great success with the Orvis guarantee.  I bought a trident in early 1997 that was a 1996 model discounted by about $100.00.  I broke the rod in the Summer of 1997 and returned it to my Orvis dealer here in Houston to get it repaired under the guarantee. The manager of the Houston store, Dave Haywood,  loaned me a replacement rod, a brand new Trident, and took my broken rod and sent it to Orvis in VT.  I didn’t even pay shipping charges.  Three weeks later Orvis sent me a brand new trident,  worth over $100.00 more than I had invested in the original rod.  I returned the loaner and have yet to spend a penny or to be inconvenienced much because of the broken rod.  When I think I could have been out a $400.00 rod I become ever more appreciative of the manner in which the whole affair was handled. I am not some crony of the store manager.  I met him when I bought the rod.  He had no reason to treat me any different than anyone else so I have to assume this is standard policy, at least here in the Houston area. It sounds like the troubles experienced with the guarantee are a function of the dealer.  I would bet a direct contact with the Orvis customer service people would get you the action you deserve. Tom

Response:

What do you expect them to do after you paid eight times what the rod cost to build? — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had great success with the Orvis guarantee.  I bought a trident in early 1997 that was a 1996 model discounted by about $100.00.  I broke the rod in the Summer of 1997 and returned it to my Orvis dealer here in Houston to get it repaired under the guarantee. The manager of the Houston store, Dave Haywood,  loaned me a replacement rod, a brand new Trident, and took my broken rod and sent it to Orvis in VT.  I didn’t even pay shipping charges.  Three weeks later Orvis sent me a brand new trident,  worth over $100.00 more than I had invested in the original rod.  I returned the loaner and have yet to spend a penny or to be inconvenienced much because of the broken rod.  When I think I could have been out a $400.00 rod I become ever more appreciative of the manner in which the whole affair was handled. I am not some crony of the store manager.  I met him when I bought the rod.  He had no reason to treat me any different than anyone else so I have to assume this is standard policy, at least here in the Houston area. It sounds like the troubles experienced with the guarantee are a function of the dealer.  I would bet a direct contact with the Orvis customer service people would get you the action you deserve. Tom

Response:

  I had an accident in last august and i broke my Orvis rod.   Of course my rod has so called no questions asked quarantee   for 25 years since i’m the original owner. So i left my rod in   local dealer which send it to local importer – This all happened   in during august last year and now it is the beginning of the   fishing season and the rod is still in repair!! Nice work Orvis –   it is the last of your rods that i’m going to buy! I would be even   willing to pay for a decent repair time but this is ridiculous.

I’ve had no problem with them at all – nor has anyone I’ve ever talked to.  They are prompt and courteous.  Even so, I’d never leave a rod and not do anything about it for months.  I always keep close tabs on my repairs, and have never had problems with _any_ company’s guarantee.  Things occasionally get lost or misplaced. What you didn’t tell us is what you have actually done to rectify the situation.  A simple call to Orvis would handle this without problem – something you should have done about 6 months ago.  It would be a hell of a lot more productive than taking time to rant on this newsgroup. Also, if you feel so strongly that these guarantees are bad for flyfishing, then 1) why did you not buy a rod from someone who doesn’t offer one and 2) why did you send your rod in for warrantee work?  If you actually feel this way, both of those actions are more than a little hypocritical. -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

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Dave, thanks for the info. I was hoping I could do this. I still have the card that was attached to the registration card (which was already sent in) and it talks about shipping to their Vermont site. My problem was just trying to figure out how to get a box that it would fit in. Thanks again. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bob Bently writes: <<With regards to the Orvis guarantee, can I take a rod to any Orvis dealer and have him ship it back for repair/replacement, or do I have to take it to the dealer I bought it from? Any Orvis dealer will take care of it for you.  Or you could ship directly to Orvis in Manchester, VT, but you’d pay the shipping charge.  Let your closest Orvis dealer do it. Dave LaCourse

Response:

Bob Bently writes:

<<With regards to the Orvis guarantee, can I take a rod to any Orvis dealer and have him ship it back for repair/replacement, or do I have to take it to the dealer I bought it from? Any Orvis dealer will take care of it for you.  Or you could ship directly to Orvis in Manchester, VT, but you’d pay the shipping charge.  Let your closest Orvis dealer do it.   Dave LaCourse

Response:

I had great success with the Orvis guarantee.  I bought a trident in early 1997 that was a 1996 model discounted by about $100.00.  I broke the rod in the Summer of 1997 and returned it to my Orvis dealer here in Houston to get it repaired under the guarantee. The manager of the Houston store, Dave Haywood,  loaned me a replacement rod, a brand new Trident, and took my broken rod and sent it to Orvis in VT.  I didn’t even pay shipping charges.  Three weeks later Orvis sent me a brand new trident,  worth over $100.00 more than I had invested in the original rod.  I returned the loaner and have yet to spend a penny or to be inconvenienced much because of the broken rod.  When I think I could have been out a $400.00 rod I become ever more appreciative of the manner in which the whole affair was handled. I am not some crony of the store manager.  I met him when I bought the rod.  He had no reason to treat me any different than anyone else so I have to assume this is standard policy, at least here in the Houston area. It sounds like the troubles experienced with the guarantee are a function of the dealer.  I would bet a direct contact with the Orvis customer service people would get you the action you deserve. Tom

Response:

With regards to the Orvis guarantee, can I take a rod to any Orvis dealer and have him ship it back for repair/replacement, or do I have to take it to the dealer I bought it from? I ask, because I broke my new Silver Label 8wt of the weekend. There is a dealer nearby, but I bought it from another dealer which is 3.5 hours away? Thanks for any info. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had great success with the Orvis guarantee.  I bought a trident in early 1997 that was a 1996 model discounted by about $100.00.  I broke the rod in the Summer of 1997 and returned it to my Orvis dealer here in Houston to get it repaired under the guarantee. The manager of the Houston store, Dave Haywood,  loaned me a replacement rod, a brand new Trident, and took my broken rod and sent it to Orvis in VT.  I didn’t even pay shipping charges.  Three weeks later Orvis sent me a brand new trident,  worth over $100.00 more than I had invested in the original rod.  I returned the loaner and have yet to spend a penny or to be inconvenienced much because of the broken rod.  When I think I could have been out a $400.00 rod I become ever more appreciative of the manner in which the whole affair was handled. I am not some crony of the store manager.  I met him when I bought the rod.  He had no reason to treat me any different than anyone else so I have to assume this is standard policy, at least here in the Houston area. It sounds like the troubles experienced with the guarantee are a function of the dealer.  I would bet a direct contact with the Orvis customer service people would get you the action you deserve. Tom

Response:

Timo Harjunen writes:

<<I had an accident in last august and i broke my Orvis rod. Of course my rod has so called no questions asked quarantee for 25 years since i’m the original owner. So i left my rod in local dealer which send it to local importer – This all happened in during august last year and now it is the beginning of the fishing season and the rod is still in repair!! Nice work Orvis – it is the last of your rods that i’m going to buy! I would be even willing to pay for a decent repair time but this is ridiculous. It may be your local dealer that is the trouble, Timo.  I accidently broke two Orvis rods (at different times over the years) and they were "in the shop" four weeks (the longest period).  You should write to Orvis in Manchester, Vermont, USA, and ask them about it.   Do not expect your dealer to work for you on this.   I suspect you are in Finland — good Finnish names — so the mail may also be the culprit in all of this. Dave LaCourse

Response:

Hello! Just one warning from disappointed customer! I had an accident in last august and i broke my Orvis rod. Of course my rod has so called no questions asked quarantee for 25 years since i’m the original owner. So i left my rod in local dealer which send it to local importer – This all happened in during august last year and now it is the beginning of the fishing season and the rod is still in repair!! Nice work Orvis – it is the last of your rods that i’m going to buy! I would be even willing to pay for a decent repair time but this is ridiculous. May this Orvis 25year quarantee means that i have to now wait for 23 years to get my rod repaired… Disappointed customer -Timo ps. IMHO No questions asked quarantees are not good for fly fishing – i’m afraid that smaller rod makers will suffer eventually since the amount of broken rods will increase when the rods gets older…

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Among the old timers of our beloved sport it it was considered something of a coup to slay a 20" trout with a #20 fly. This is quite a feat, of for no other reason than the size of the tippet that will fit through the eye of a #20 hook; and these guys were fishing with gut leaders, where 5X was about a pound.   How about reversing the hook to fish ratio? What’s the smallest fish you can recall catching on the biggest fly?   Today I hiked up to a small creek at 9000 ft, where the brookies aren’t expected to go much over 6". The rod in hand was already strung up with the rig that worked the last time I fished it, which happened to be a #10 Adams. The challenge immediately became apparent. I left the #10 on and proceeded to fish, determined to hang in there until I hooked one or darkness fell. Well, lo and behold, I began catching brookies by the buckets, some of them as small as 3". BTW, the jaw gape of a 3" brookie is less than the hook gape of a #10 hook, so these fish were all hooked because they charged the fly from head on, and they didn’t have to spread their jaws over the whole fly.   My question to the group is this: Whats the smallest fish you’ve caught on the biggest fly? I expect the salmon, steelhead, and pike guys to come in with the winning answers, simply due to the size of the flies they normally fish with.

Well, mine has to be a brown trout of about 3" on a muddler tyed on a size six long shank. I was fishing for salmon and sea trout on the Sligachan River on the Isle of Skye at the time. I caught several more of his similarly sized breatheren as well. They would come up from the bottom like polaris missiles and come clear out of the water in their eagerness to be the first one there. There was also the 1" dace on a size 10 dry Wickhams fancy, but that dosen’t count as he foul hooked himself. Colin. — Colin J. McPherson B.Eng. Design and Structures Group, School of Mechanical Engineering, University of Bath,Bath,U.K.

Response:

Among the old timers of our beloved sport it it was considered something of a coup to slay a 20" trout with a #20 fly. This is quite a feat, of for no other reason than the size of the tippet that will fit through the eye of a #20 hook; and these guys were fishing with gut leaders, where 5X was about a pound.   How about reversing the hook to fish ratio? What’s the smallest fish you can recall catching on the biggest fly?   Today I hiked up to a small creek at 9000 ft, where the brookies aren’t expected to go much over 6". The rod in hand was already strung up with the rig that worked the last time I fished it, which happened to be a #10 Adams. The challenge immediately became apparent. I left the #10 on and proceeded to fish, determined to hang in there until I hooked one or darkness fell. Well, lo and behold, I began catching brookies by the buckets, some of them as small as 3". BTW, the jaw gape of a 3" brookie is less than the hook gape of a #10 hook, so these fish were all hooked because they charged the fly from head on, and they didn’t have to spread their jaws over the whole fly.   My question to the group is this: Whats the smallest fish you’ve caught on the biggest fly? I expect the salmon, steelhead, and pike guys to come in with the winning answers, simply due to the size of the flies they normally fish with.

Response:

Whenever fishing a small brook stream in WVA, small 3 inch always hit a size 10 adult stonefly.  The best was while fihing the same stream with my father, we came across a stonefly fluttering in the grass, thinking this should tempt great grandfather of all brookies, he removed his fly and casted the live stone into a small pocket.  I kid you not the brookie that hit and was hooked about 3.5 inches long.  The stone was approx. 2 inches with a 3 inch wingspand.

Response:

  My question to the group is this: Whats the smallest fish you’ve caught on the biggest fly? I expect the salmon, steelhead, and pike guys to come in with the winning answers, simply due to the size of the flies they normally fish with.

Don’t be too sure.  The bass guys use fairly large flies around blue gill and tiger perch.  I caught a three inch tiger perch on a #6 3x long wooly bugger last night.  Counting the tail, the bugger was three fourths the length of the fish! — Tight Threads,         Charley Renn         Corvallis, OR

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Question:

How about some Montana freemen, Tim? They’re coming to take you away, they’re coming to take you away, oh boy. Don B. FREEMEN? Aren’t those the guys that just got put in jail? Bronco

Jail? We don’t have jails anymore. They’re going to urban recreation centers. <g Don B.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How about some Montana freemen, Tim? They’re coming to take you away, they’re coming to take you away, oh boy. Don B. FREEMEN? Aren’t those the guys that just got put in jail? Bronco Jail? We don’t have jails anymore. They’re going to urban recreation centers. <g

That’s true and just think of how many Adams you could tie doing 5-10. TimW

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How about some Montana freemen, Tim? They’re coming to take you away, they’re coming to take you away, oh boy. Don B. FREEMEN? Aren’t those the guys that just got put in jail? Bronco Jail? We don’t have jails anymore. They’re going to urban recreation centers. <g That’s true and just think of how many Adams you could tie doing 5-10. TimW

The problem is making good hooks from spoons! Musconet

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Just received Orvis’s gift and clothing catalog. There is an African American model on just about every other page. It may not be their fishing catalog, but it goes to show that they are not racist. Lets hope that this dispenses with this valuable but(now)tiresome thread that has occupied so much of the bandwidth on ROFF over the last few weeks.

Yeah…but I saw NO asians pal !  Damned if there wasn’t a SINGLE Aleut ! Can you beleive that ?!?!?  And Mongols…? Ha ! nowhere in sight… you know what, I saw no dwarves or midgets eithers… Orvis, those Eskimidgetmongolphobic bastards… TimW

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Seriously…no midgets!!! God that makes me angry. I’m going to write Perk Perkins and give that bastard hell.

Response:

Just received Orvis’s gift and clothing catalog. There is an African American model on just about every other page. It may not be their fishing catalog, but it goes to show that they are not racist. Lets hope that this dispenses with this valuable but(now)tiresome thread that has occupied so much of the bandwidth on ROFF over the last few weeks.

Response:

writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Oh Well….. Just received Orvis’s gift and clothing catalog. There is an African American model on just about every other page. It may not be their fishing catalog, but it goes to show that they are not racist. Lets hope that this dispenses with this valuable but(now)tiresome thread that has occupied so much of the bandwidth on ROFF over the last few weeks. Yeah…but I saw NO asians pal !  Damned if there wasn’t a SINGLE Aleut ! Can you beleive that ?!?!?  And Mongols…? Ha ! nowhere in sight… you know what, I saw no dwarves or midgets eithers… Orvis, those Eskimidgetmongolphobic bastards… TimW

Response:

Just received Orvis’s gift and clothing catalog. There is an African American model on just about every other page. It may not be their fishing catalog, but it goes to show that they are not racist. Lets hope that this dispenses with this valuable but(now)tiresome thread that has occupied so much of the bandwidth on ROFF over the last few weeks.

I totally agree!  I used to live near Manchester, VT and got to know many of the Orvis people (I also did some of the catalog photography). They’re nice people and _not_ racist, like most people aren’t. Jim Benenson Los Alamos, NM "To save your rivers, save your mountains" Emperor Yu of China, circa 1600 BC

Response:

Just received Orvis’s gift and clothing catalog. There is an African American model on just about every other page. It may not be their fishing catalog, but it goes to show that they are not racist. Lets hope that this dispenses with this valuable but(now)tiresome thread that has occupied so much of the bandwidth on ROFF over the last few weeks.

Maybe it also shows that they read r.o.f.f…. — Richard W. (Dick) Lander; sportsman, Macintosh devotee, proponent of personal liberty. *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *

Response:

Just received Orvis’s gift and clothing catalog. There is an African American model on just about every other page. It may not be their fishing catalog, but it goes to show that they are not racist. Lets hope that this dispenses with this valuable but(now)tiresome thread that has occupied so much of the bandwidth on ROFF over the last few weeks.

AMEN!!!       Gene

Response:

writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just received Orvis’s gift and clothing catalog. There is an African American model on just about every other page. It may not be their fishing catalog, but it goes to show that they are not racist. Lets hope that this dispenses with this valuable but(now)tiresome thread that has occupied so much of the bandwidth on ROFF over the last few weeks. Yeah…but I saw NO asians pal !  Damned if there wasn’t a SINGLE Aleut ! Can you beleive that ?!?!?  And Mongols…? Ha ! nowhere in sight… you know what, I saw no dwarves or midgets eithers… Orvis, those Eskimidgetmongolphobic bastards… TimW

How about some Montana freemen, Tim? They’re coming to take you away, they’re coming to take you away, oh boy. Don B.

Response:

This is my first post to a newsgroup, so bear with me if I blunder. I attempted, with little success, to tie a Dark Hendrickson Nymph this evening.  All aspects of tying the fly are understandable, and I am able to accomplish them except dubbing.  Is this a concept with which most beginners (like myself) have trouble? Specifically, I cannot get the Muskrat fur to "adhere" to the thread.  I use dubbing wax and dab the fur onto it, but it never gets thick enough to tighten into something that will form the body/thorax. Can someone provide some much-needed advice/hints on how I can make this happen? Thanks in advance…

Response:

. . . Specifically, I cannot get the Muskrat fur to "adhere" to the thread.  I use dubbing wax and dab the fur onto it, but it never gets thick enough to tighten into something that will form the body/thorax.

There are several different methods, described in books by Eric Leiser, Poul Jorgensen, Peter Gathercole etc. e.g. single thread or double loop (chenille) depending on factors like your thread (silk or nylon or polyester) and aims:  so feel free to experiment, if you cannot get to the library.   E.g. you can sprinkle cut fur on a clean cloth on your knee, take a separate piece of waxed thread, and roll it on the fur until it picks up a smooth "sausage" of dubbing.  If your dubbing goes onto the nymph but fails to stay on, counter-winding with self-coloured ribbing may be all you need. Some people tie successfully without ever using wax, especially wets because they should sink, not float.  Saliva holds many furs well enough to many threads. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -This is my first post to a newsgroup, so bear with me if I blunder. I attempted, with little success, to tie a Dark Hendrickson Nymph this evening.  All aspects of tying the fly are understandable, and I am able to accomplish them except dubbing.  Is this a concept with which most beginners (like myself) have trouble? Specifically, I cannot get the Muskrat fur to "adhere" to the thread. I use dubbing wax and dab the fur onto it, but it never gets thick enough to tighten into something that will form the body/thorax. Can someone provide some much-needed advice/hints on how I can make this happen? Thanks in advance…

  Try spinning the dubbing onto the thread.  Dabbing creates a spikey dubbed body.  Try this – dab the fur onto the waxed thread, and pinch the dubbing between your forefinger and thumb and spin the fur onto the line.  Be careful to spin in one direction only.  this should create a nicely formed "noodle" which you then wind on. You can also form the "noodle" loosely, before dabbing.  lay out the fur (or better a mixture of several colors layered, then pinch it onto the thread, and wind on. This gives you a nicely mottled thorax. good luck,

Response:

Specifically, I cannot get the Muskrat fur to "adhere" to the thread.  I use dubbing wax and dab the fur onto it, but it never gets thick enough to tighten into something that will form the body/thorax.

Gary, In addition to the suggestions made by J. J. Gordon, you might want to try using a dubbing loop:  Form a loop of thread that is several inches long at the rear of the fly.  Wind the bobbin to the front of the fly where the dubbing will end.  Hang a dubbing twister on the end of the loop.  I made a simple dubbling twister using a couple of paper clips and a bell sinker–it’s essentially a hook of wire with a weight.  Wax the loop and place the dubbing in the loop.  Spin the twister until the dubbing has formed a chenille-like strand of the desired tightness.  If you "twang" the thread as you are twisting it, hair-type dubbing will tend to stand out more, making a more "spiky" body.  Then just wind the loop onto the hook like chenille and tie it off. I’ve found loops to be easier to handle than the single thread methods. Good luck! –Stephen Wong P.S. You might want to check out the flytying newsgroup: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying.

Response:

How about some Montana freemen, Tim? They’re coming to take you away, they’re coming to take you away, oh boy. Don B. FREEMEN? Aren’t those the guys that just got put in jail? Bronco

Response:

Geecee, Dubbing’s a bitch for beginners. Just keep at it, soon you will be able to do it without wax. Suggestion: after dubbing onto a single thread, loop back to the body of the hook. Then twist the bottom of the newly formed loop. That tends to hold the dubbing on the thread snugly. Bronco

Response:

. . . Specifically, I cannot get the Muskrat fur to "adhere" to the thread.  I use dubbing wax and dab the fur onto it, but it never gets thick enough to tighten into something that will form the body/thorax.

I have never used wax… well, except to experiment. I just pull off the bits of muskrat and make certain I didn’t also pull off some hide . Then, while holding it between my index finger and thumb, I roll it around the thread. You can add as much or as little as you want and there is no waste. If you roll it loosely, it sticks out and is nice and buggy looking. If you roll it tightly, it looks more like a dry fly dubbing job. Maybe I am being too vague about my technique… I pull the hairs off with the standard thumb and forefinger method any child would employ. Grab some and pull. Then I kind of slide the tying thread into the hairs (parallel to the hairs) and start to roll my fingers as though I was trying to twist the thread one way, then the other. I work my fingers up and down the thread to evenly distribute the hair quantity and this also allows me to taper the body quite well. I can adjust the weight of the bug by changing how much hair I put on at a time. Less hair means more thread and more wraps, more weight and more strength to the finished fly but the body is also harder when the fish bites. Opinions may fly rampant here but the fish never seem to comment on it one way or the other. Hope this helps, David Buschhorn Known on IRC as "Dubbing"

Response:

writes: Can someone provide some much-needed advice/hints on how I can make this happen?

    Everybody’s right and nobody’s wrong on this.  I don’t think any two tyers do this exactly the same way.  I prefer the single thread to the loop for most patterns, but that’s me.  I’m also not as good or consistent as I may sound in postings.  My hint: put a big hook in the vise and work on dubbing for an hour without trying to tie a fly.  Try different threads, waxes, furs, and methods.  Your way will come to you.  In the long run it will save you time and frustration.  Also, join us on ROFFT — good stuff every day, all are welcome.   –Roger

Response:

In addition to the other methods you may want to look at the thread you are using and the way you apply the wax. If you are using a pre-waxed thread there is no need to add wax to the thread. Instead put the wax on your fingers. Most of the times that I have seen people having problems with dubbing it has been fixed by keeping the fingers dry a bit of low tack wax works well.

Response:

Question:

I am planning a short trip to the Bay Area in mid-march. Can anyone suggest good trout waters within a couple hours of San Francisco?

Response:

Because the general trout season doesn’t open until May 1st, trout waters are hard to come by near San Francisco in mid-March.  However, there is one trout stream that remains open, about a one and a half hour drive. It’s called Putah Creek.  It’s a tailwater, flowing out of a man-made reservoir, called Lake Berryessa.  It’s a bit north of a town called Vacaville, east of San Francisco off Highway 80, on the way to Sacramento.  Easy to find on a map.  Make local inquiries as to how to get to the section below the dam. If you want to get into some big trout, (and I’m talking 6-8 lbs.) drive north on Highway 5 for about 3 1/2 hours.  Between the towns of Anderson and Red Bluff, on the Sacramento River, a guide can be had to float you through that water.  This is a blue ribbon fishery, and open at this time of year.  Make inquiries for guides, etc.  through the "Redding Fly Shop."  Their phone number is (916) 222-3555. Those guys really know the water in that area, and can put you into good fishing, and will arrange good guides for you. Tight Lines! Old Deep

Response:

: I am planning a short trip to the Bay Area in mid-march. Can anyone : suggest good trout waters within a couple hours of San Francisco? Here are the Lakes that are now open: From nearest to the farthest: Lake Merced: Right in the Heart of San Francisco San Pablo Dam Reservoir: Take San Pablo Dam Road in Richmond Lake Del Valle: This is south of Livermore Parkway Lake: Private lake, open to anyone even without a license for a fee Lake Chabot Lake Berryessa: Napa County Lake Pardee Lake Camanche Lake Amador

Response:

writes: If you want to get into some big trout, (and I’m talking 6-8 lbs.) drive north on Highway 5 for about 3 1/2 hours.  Between the towns of Anderson and Red Bluff, on the Sacramento River, a guide can be had to float you through that water.  This is a blue ribbon fishery, and open at this time of year.  Make inquiries for guides, etc.  through the "Redding Fly Shop." Their phone number is (916) 222-3555. Those guys really know the water in that area, and can put you into good fishing, and will arrange good guides for you.

Be sure to call ahead to check on flows.  You can wade the Lower Sac in the town of Redding and down to Anerson when the flows are 4000cfs or lower.  5000cfs gets a little tough to wade and above 8000cfs you can use a boat, but probably won’t find many fish.  Currently the Lower Sac flows are 35,000 cfs.  We had some warm weather which filled Shasta lake up too much from run-off so they are dumping it like crazy now. If the flows are good in March, there are usually great caddis hatches and both good nymphing and dry fly fishing.   About 2 hrs out of SF you can fish the Mokulemne River below Comanche Dam or the lower part of the Stanislaus River.  Both can be good in March. Also may be decent Striper fishing in the Delta then.                                             Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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Question:

Spectra. I have used unbraided spectra equivalent ( I believe it is Kevlar strands) for both pike and barracuda on the fly and have yet to have a problem.  I have heard that spectra does like going around sharp corners such as through eyes of hooks or swivels. There is a braided microfibre sold under the brandd name ‘CORASTRONG’ in the UK that I use for bonefish backing.  Its fine diameter means that you can lots of backing on a smallish reel.  The stuff is abrasion resistant across coral heads unlike micron or other dacron braids.  I have yet to use for leader but see no reason why it should not work. Chris Enstone – ‘fishing is just like work except that you don’t get paid for it and you enjoy it’

Response:

        After taking one trip to nor. Saskatchewan for pike on a fly in summer ‘94, and dealing with the hassels of wire tippets, I wondered if there has been any experience with the new braided micro-filament lines used more often in the baitcasting (shh,;)) world.  They are low-stretch, supposedly are more abraision resitant, and super-strong for their respective diameter.  Would these lines be worth their lack of stiffness (for turning over pike flies) in order to take advantage of their fish fighting abilities?         Also, would they work well enough to be used as backing?                                                 Response by e-mail or                                                 posting appreciated,                                                 Starving College Student — Ryan Maas

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Question:

I am in need of some fly-fishing spots.  I live in the Chicago area . . .

I, too, live near Chicago and have been looking for places to go that are nearby.  So far as I can tell, there’s not one bloody trout stream anywhere in the state.  The good news is that just a short hop away, in SW Wisconsin (I’m told) there are some fairly decent trout streams, some of which are designated no-kill streams.  I’ve also heard of various streams in Michigan that might be decent, but don’t know any specifics. I got this information from the Trout & Grouse store, which is located in Northfield (right off the Edens expressway).  I took a fly-fishing course there just recently (I’m just beginning), and they apparently have guides that know these WI and MI streams really well.  Sorry, I don’t have their phone or address handy, though I’m sure they’re in the directory if you want to give them a call. Hope this helps.  Keith — Keith Ludwig, Odesta Systems Corporation,

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Being a displaced Coloradoan here in the land of Lincoln, I am in need of some fly-fishing spots.  I live in the Chicago area . . . does anyone have any suggestions or secret spots they might care to divulge.  I will throw a fly at anything but catfish or carp Thanks, Kevin

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