Question:

Ever heard of a test being run? Any body with two sets of fins and a GPS could run a test for us.

Next time I’m out with my Force Fins, I’ll just have the water skier hold the GPS for me.  That way I can watch where I’m going bruce h

Response:

I need a new pair of fins. Although I find it hard to justify paying a hundred bucks for a pair of fins, Bill’s post was pretty convincing and yours clinched it. I HATE getting blown across a lake. Willi

Ditto.  Sounds like my next purchase. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply.

Response:

I’m impressed.  I always assumed it was the float tube design that sucked, maybe it was just the caddis fins. I eagerly await daytripper’s test results, but I may jump the gun. Thanks much, Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I need a new pair of fins. Although I find it hard to justify paying a hundred bucks for a pair of fins, Bill’s post was pretty convincing and yours clinched it. I HATE getting blown across a lake. Willi Ditto.  Sounds like my next purchase. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply.

Fix underscore in address to reply

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Dick, We sell them one a time for 50% of the cost of a pair. Just call our USA toll free number and tell us what size and right or left fin? We carry the Original and the Adjustable in black only. 1-800-400-0359 We can ship one to you tomorrow any where in the USA. Do feel alone, this happens all the time. There is nothing like the Force Fin for float tubes and pontoon boats. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

Thanks Bill, I’ve become accustomed to fishing without boots – just using a neoprene booty which is pretty comfortable for long days on the lake.   In an another post "Bruiser" indicated originals fit better for this application than the adjustables? Although it isn’t often, I have had occassions where it would have been an advantage to be wearing boots – so I’m wondering if the adjustable model is just for boots or is it as comfortable as the original without boots?  And of course, is there enough slack in the adjustment to accomodate both modes? Thanks for your time, – Dick

Response:

I need a new pair of fins. Although I find it hard to justify paying a hundred bucks for a pair of fins, Bill’s post was pretty convincing and yours clinched it. I HATE getting blown across a lake. Willi Ditto.  Sounds like my next purchase. I’m impressed.  I always assumed it was the float tube design that sucked, maybe it was just the caddis fins. I eagerly await daytripper’s test results, but I may jump the gun.

Don’t hold your breath. It’ll be some time before I can do tube time trials with my Force Fins… fwiw, though, I don’t think the Force Fins are all that special wrt to making good time, but they’re the only fins I’ve ever owned that I can walk *forward* in while wearing a tube without inevitably doing a face plant. They’re definitely worth it for that, though there is that risk of a tether failure losing one to the deep… /daytripper (T-13 Hours)

Response:

I cant remember exactly when it was…maybe around 1990, the maker of force fins was in the process of developing fins that float.  I haven’t shopped for much fishing gear in last few years so I’m not sure if there are any on the market Go Oregon Ducks…The  Big Green Scoring Machine

Response:

I am a believer. Force Fins are the best.     I agree. If you do much float tubing where I live, you are going to find yourself out on the water when the wind picks up to 40-60 mph, and as often as not it will blow you away from your put-in spot. When I used Caddis fins I was unable to overcome the wind, and I usually ended up walking back from the far side of the lake. With Force fins I can power my way into a pretty stiff headwind and save myself a three mile walk (usually through a marsh, wearing neoprenes and carrying a tube, fins, and rod).

I need a new pair of fins. Although I find it hard to justify paying a hundred bucks for a pair of fins, Bill’s post was pretty convincing and yours clinched it. I HATE getting blown across a lake. Willi

Response:

I am a believer. Force Fins are the best.

    I agree. If you do much float tubing where I live, you are going to find yourself out on the water when the wind picks up to 40-60 mph, and as often as not it will blow you away from your put-in spot. When I used Caddis fins I was unable to overcome the wind, and I usually ended up walking back from the far side of the lake. With Force fins I can power my way into a pretty stiff headwind and save myself a three mile walk (usually through a marsh, wearing neoprenes and carrying a tube, fins, and rod).

Response:

Any body with two sets of fins and a GPS could run a test for us.

Yeah. That’ll happen.

Response:

Has anyone done any testing to compare these fins.  I noticed the other day that my hand held GPS will show the speed, even for slow things like belly boats and turtles.  I checked out my pontoon/kayak boat and found I could paddle it at a max of about 2.5mph.  I’m sure belly boats are slower, but I wonder what the relative speed is with different fins. Ever heard of a test being run? Any body with two sets of fins and a GPS could run a test for us. Thanks Chas

…  snip … Do[n't] feel alone, this happens all the time. There is nothing like the Force Fin for float tubes and pontoon boats. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

Fix underscore in address to reply

Response:

   good vibes to you

As long as they’re not in the doc’s hands. <g Good luck DT. — Charlie…

Response:

Hello All, I use to do lots of float tubing but in the last decade I have done more fishing from small boats. Last spring, I took my wife out for her first time ever float tubing. We were both in fairly similar V-boats but I gave her the Force Fins($100) and I had a pair of Caddis fins($40). I felt with our difference in "horse power" that it would be about an equal race. Well, I could never keep up with her and I tried so hard to catch her I almost killed myself. I was "steaming" to the back of a small lake to get to a fishing spot where a small stream comes in. I made a straight line and kicked with everything I had. My wife would come by me and then make circles around me, talking all the time about how fun this was and I still could not "leave her in the dust" ??? I am a believer. Force Fins are the best. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone done any testing to compare these fins.  I noticed the other day that my hand held GPS will show the speed, even for slow things like belly boats and turtles.  I checked out my pontoon/kayak boat and found I could paddle it at a max of about 2.5mph.  I’m sure belly boats are slower, but I wonder what the relative speed is with different fins. Ever heard of a test being run? Any body with two sets of fins and a GPS could run a test for us. Thanks Chas …  snip … Do[n't] feel alone, this happens all the time. There is nothing like the Force Fin for float tubes and pontoon boats. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com Fix underscore in address to reply

Response:

FWIW, I really like the adjustable Force Fins. They fit better over wading boots.  The regular Force fins seem to fit better if you just wear a small neoprene bootie. bruce h

Response:

Hi Dick, We sell them one a time for 50% of the cost of a pair. Just call our USA toll free number and tell us what size and right or left fin? We carry the Original and the Adjustable in black only. 1-800-400-0359 We can ship one to you tomorrow any where in the USA. Do feel alone, this happens all the time. There is nothing like the Force Fin for float tubes and pontoon boats. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jump’n cheese & crackers, got all muddy! I bought a pair of force fins many, many years ago, and haven’t paid much attention to new products for just about as long.  After a gazillion near misses of loosing my fins, (force fins sink), I finally lost one.  In case your wondering, yes, I did have them tethered, and no, that wasn’t good enough.  Somehow slipped it’s snap  in the middle of a fight with a 20" rainbow.  I think the fish did it. Anyhoo, onto why I’m writing: Criminy, those fins got expensive!  I like them a lot but fer cry’n out loud, when I bought mine I’m sure it was less than fifty bucks. Depending on the model, they want nearly three times that today. The two models I’m looking at are the originals and the Adjustable Deluxe.  The least expensive Adjustable Deluxe pair I could find was from Cabella’s at $125.  Replacing the originals is $100. I know I haven’t stayed up with the latest and greatest (I bet I look like an antique dealer when I go fishing) so I’m wondering if the Adjustable force fins are worth the dough? Anyone out there had experience with both? Lastly, is there anyone out there with a single medium size original force fin with buckle on the right side? Thanks, – Dick

Response:

Jump’n cheese & crackers, got all muddy!

        what the fuck do you think this is—the mickey mouse club? wayno

Response:

Jump’n cheese & crackers, got all muddy!    what the fuck do you think this is—the mickey mouse club? wayno

hey, Boy Lawyer! I thought there was a cardinal rule among people of your occupation about never asking a question unless you already know the answer.

Response:

Jump’n cheese & crackers, got all muddy!        what the fuck do you think this is—the mickey mouse club? wayno hey, Boy Lawyer! I thought there was a cardinal rule among people of your occupation about never asking a question unless you already know the answer.

        hey, man, i will bust your ass for that response…if you promise me that you will get through this *last* bit of surgery in good shape!         good vibes to you, from your friend in the old north state wayno

Response:

Jump’n cheese & crackers, got all muddy! I bought a pair of force fins many, many years ago, and haven’t paid much attention to new products for just about as long.  After a gazillion near misses of loosing my fins, (force fins sink), I finally lost one.  In case your wondering, yes, I did have them tethered, and no, that wasn’t good enough.  Somehow slipped it’s snap  in the middle of a fight with a 20" rainbow.  I think the fish did it. Anyhoo, onto why I’m writing: Criminy, those fins got expensive!  I like them a lot but fer cry’n out loud, when I bought mine I’m sure it was less than fifty bucks.   Depending on the model, they want nearly three times that today.   The two models I’m looking at are the originals and the Adjustable Deluxe.  The least expensive Adjustable Deluxe pair I could find was from Cabella’s at $125.  Replacing the originals is $100. I know I haven’t stayed up with the latest and greatest (I bet I look like an antique dealer when I go fishing) so I’m wondering if the Adjustable force fins are worth the dough? Anyone out there had experience with both? Lastly, is there anyone out there with a single medium size original force fin with buckle on the right side? Thanks, – Dick

Response:

Question:

We then played a game of chase me with the bull. We then took turns distracting the bull while the other one retrieved pieces of our gear. After numerous trips and more chases, we had assembled everything we had brought and headed home.

Did it seem funny at the time? It sure is now. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

that is a great story……thanks. reminds me of the time we backpacked near the susquehanna river close to a railroad track. At about 2 am a train came up the valley  and I jumped up out of the sleeping bag. I was sure that our tent was right on the tracks. It wasnt funny then but I sure do laugh about it now. -Walter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ken’s trashing of the fishing in central Illinois and another thread that discussed setting up camp in the dark brought back a memory of a trip I made with a fishing buddy named John when I was in college. After classes one Friday in Spring, we took off for the weekend to fish a couple of feeder creeks.  The Smallmouths had moved into these small stream from the larger rivers to spawn earlier in the year. Some had stayed on to feed on the Chubs that also used the streams for breeding. These small creeks ranged from ten to twenty feet in width and wound their way through farmers’ fields of soybeans, cattle and corn.  Most farmers left stands of trees bordering the creeks. Being the only wooded stands amidst miles of farmers’ crops, these small pockets of nature drew the wildlife. Deer, raccoons, opossums, muskrats, rabbits, pheasants, ducks, hawks and a wide range of songbirds kept us company. In the Spring, the creeks generally held some color but they were clear enough to see several feet into the water and were easy, pleasant wading.  Some of them were spring creeks or at least, spring-like with their flows running through layers of fragmented limestone. They held some disproportionately large fish for such small bodies of water. During the day we caught Smallmouths, Chubs, Rockbass and other assorted panfish, Catfish and an occasional Carp on the tiny lures we tossed with our ultra light gear. But in the evening and early mornings, the bigger Smallmouths, up to four pounds, would smash the weird balsa wood poppers we concocted that we flung at them with our fly rods. John felt that the bigger fish were literate and usually painted "EAT ME" on the bottom of his hoping to lure the bigger fish. These bigger, surface feeding Smallmouths were a kick, especially in streams so tiny. We got to the area we wanted to fish and with our backpacks on, we worked our way upstream. I don’t remember the fishing on that day but it must have been pretty good because it was dark when we decided to set up camp.  We ate a dinner of fresh caught fish next to the stream but because of the darkness and the uneven terrain, we couldn’t find a level place to sleep. At the edge of the wooded area, we came to a barbed wire fence that we climb over to look for level ground. We finally found what we felt was a suitable place, unrolled our sleeping bags and called it a night. Numerous times during the night I was awaken by something. Most times, since I heard nothing, I ignored it and went back to sleep. Several times I sat up to look around, but without my contact lenses, I could see nothing in the moonless night. However, I heard some pounding sounds that trailed off from where we slept. After several such episodes, I was very spooked.  I finally decided to wake up John to see if he had heard anything, but since he slept like a dead man, he had heard nothing, called me an idiot, and told me to leave him alone and go back to sleep. After a very disruptive sleep, I awoke again at dawn and when I looked around, I saw a herd of cows standing in a circle around us. When I sat up, they ran off with pounding hooves. I yelled at John to wake up. We talked about our invasion of the cow’s territory and had a good laugh. We got dressed and when we went to pick up our sleeping bags, we found them encrusted with slimy, green cow shit.  John’s had just one small spot, but my blue bag looked like it had been painted green because of the acrobats I had performed during my fitful night. John gave me some more "shit" as we assembled our gear. Holding the sleeping bags in our arms, we spotted an unusually large "cow" standing alone, about fifty feet across the field who was staring at us with a lowered head. The "cow" then charged us. Dropping our gear, I went one way, John another. The bull chose me to chase but luckily I was close to the fence and got through before the bull reached me. The bull then went after John. John made it to the fence before the bull but as he was making his way through, his shirt got stuck on a barb and the bull ended up giving him a final, not too gentle, nudge through the fence. We then played a game of chase me with the bull. We then took turns distracting the bull while the other one retrieved pieces of our gear. After numerous trips and more chases, we had assembled everything we had brought and headed home. Willi

—–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Nice one Willi, that is how I prefer my bullshit ! TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de Ken’s trashing of the fishing in central Illinois and another thread that discussed setting up camp in the dark brought back a memory of a trip I made with a fishing buddy named John when I was in college.

<SNIP

Response:

[nice story snipped] your story calls to mind a day when I was fishing a small trout river near where I live last season. Most of the river runs through heavily wooded country but on one section it runs through a couple of acres of pasture. It was on this section where the casting is easier that I was fishing from the shallows, intently absorbed on getting my Greenwells to drift in a convincing fashion past what appeared to be a reasonable sized brownie that was rising every couple of minutes.  I must have been there about 10 minutes or so when I heard a low snuffle type sound and then got that hairs rising on the back of the neck feeling that I was being watched.   I turned around and standing all around me in a tight semi-circle no more than twenty feet away were about 30 or more bullocks and heifers all staring intently at me like they were fascinated by what I was doing. how they had snuck up on me without my hearing and how I had managed to avoid hooking one on the backcast I don’t know. They weren’t doing me any harm, but I discovered its just as off- putting being closely and silently observed by cattle as it is by people.  Each time I waded a bit further upstream my bovine gallery moved along with me.  Ordering them to fuck off and waving my rod at them produced no more than a bit of foot shuffling and guilty looks on their part.  Eventually had to give it up and head for the woods, where the solitude more than compensated for the snagged bushes and trees. traprain

Response:

They weren’t doing me any harm, but I discovered its just as off- putting being closely and silently observed by cattle as it is by people.  Each time I waded a bit further upstream my bovine gallery moved along with me.  Ordering them to fuck off and waving my rod at them produced no more than a bit of foot shuffling and guilty looks on their part.  Eventually had to give it up and head for the woods, where the solitude more than compensated for the snagged bushes and trees. traprain

Hey Trapain,  I get the curious cows   in the meadows  too.  They frightened me as a 9 year old,  but since then I learned that they are just scared/inquisitive of you.    Sounds like you and I fish similar rivers too; wooded sections and then relatively open meadow.  My biggest foe on the river is the pesky flies that persist the open areas in July and August. The little sods fly in your face when you are trying hard to concentrate, etc.  When moving into the wooded sections,  I find a blissful escape,  as the flies don’t seem to plague these areas.

Response:

Ken’s trashing of the fishing in central Illinois and another thread that discussed setting up camp in the dark brought back a memory of a trip I made with a fishing buddy named John when I was in college. After classes one Friday in Spring, we took off for the weekend to fish a couple of feeder creeks.  The Smallmouths had moved into these small stream from the larger rivers to spawn earlier in the year. Some had stayed on to feed on the Chubs that also used the streams for breeding. These small creeks ranged from ten to twenty feet in width and wound their way through farmers’ fields of soybeans, cattle and corn.  Most farmers left stands of trees bordering the creeks. Being the only wooded stands amidst miles of farmers’ crops, these small pockets of nature drew the wildlife. Deer, raccoons, opossums, muskrats, rabbits, pheasants, ducks, hawks and a wide range of songbirds kept us company. In the Spring, the creeks generally held some color but they were clear enough to see several feet into the water and were easy, pleasant wading.  Some of them were spring creeks or at least, spring-like with their flows running through layers of fragmented limestone. They held some disproportionately large fish for such small bodies of water. During the day we caught Smallmouths, Chubs, Rockbass and other assorted panfish, Catfish and an occasional Carp on the tiny lures we tossed with our ultra light gear. But in the evening and early mornings, the bigger Smallmouths, up to four pounds, would smash the weird balsa wood poppers we concocted that we flung at them with our fly rods. John felt that the bigger fish were literate and usually painted "EAT ME" on the bottom of his hoping to lure the bigger fish. These bigger, surface feeding Smallmouths were a kick, especially in streams so tiny. We got to the area we wanted to fish and with our backpacks on, we worked our way upstream. I don’t remember the fishing on that day but it must have been pretty good because it was dark when we decided to set up camp.  We ate a dinner of fresh caught fish next to the stream but because of the darkness and the uneven terrain, we couldn’t find a level place to sleep. At the edge of the wooded area, we came to a barbed wire fence that we climb over to look for level ground. We finally found what we felt was a suitable place, unrolled our sleeping bags and called it a night. Numerous times during the night I was awaken by something. Most times, since I heard nothing, I ignored it and went back to sleep. Several times I sat up to look around, but without my contact lenses, I could see nothing in the moonless night. However, I heard some pounding sounds that trailed off from where we slept. After several such episodes, I was very spooked.  I finally decided to wake up John to see if he had heard anything, but since he slept like a dead man, he had heard nothing, called me an idiot, and told me to leave him alone and go back to sleep. After a very disruptive sleep, I awoke again at dawn and when I looked around, I saw a herd of cows standing in a circle around us. When I sat up, they ran off with pounding hooves. I yelled at John to wake up. We talked about our invasion of the cow’s territory and had a good laugh. We got dressed and when we went to pick up our sleeping bags, we found them encrusted with slimy, green cow shit.  John’s had just one small spot, but my blue bag looked like it had been painted green because of the acrobats I had performed during my fitful night. John gave me some more "shit" as we assembled our gear. Holding the sleeping bags in our arms, we spotted an unusually large "cow" standing alone, about fifty feet across the field who was staring at us with a lowered head. The "cow" then charged us. Dropping our gear, I went one way, John another. The bull chose me to chase but luckily I was close to the fence and got through before the bull reached me. The bull then went after John. John made it to the fence before the bull but as he was making his way through, his shirt got stuck on a barb and the bull ended up giving him a final, not too gentle, nudge through the fence. We then played a game of chase me with the bull. We then took turns distracting the bull while the other one retrieved pieces of our gear. After numerous trips and more chases, we had assembled everything we had brought and headed home.   Willi

Response:

Question:

Hello lost a 3lb+ fish in a tourney the other day, throwing a tube on 8lb test Trilene XL. Hooked into her, watched her jump once and saw the size, immediately loosened the drag, then a couple seconds later, the fish was gone. Could have been a weak spot in the line, but I am guessing the line was frayed on rocks or something else under water as the fish was running. Does anyone else use 8lb test in tourneys for spinning finesse situations, or should I go higher? How about any super lines in the same test diameter. Don’t want any more breakoffs! I also need a line with high visibility out of water and limited visibility under. Thanks to all. John

I use 4/10 FireLine for all my spinning requirements with the exception of slip bobbers.  I catch walleye and smallmouth in clear water without problem.  What I really like is when I fish the cribs and brushpiles.  The FireLine has the needed strength to pull them away from cover. —

Response:

Does anyone else use 8lb test in tourneys for spinning finesse situations, or should I go higher?

I had the same problem with XL.  Now I use 10lb XT on all my spinning gear, it’s tougher and a lot more abrasion resistant.   Chad

Response:

Thanks Graig… brought back some of my own memories!!…Now I got the tears…. Fishing Couldn’t be finer in South Caroliner! * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping.  Smart is Beautiful

Response:

Craig Baugher wrote!! my buddy got too close and I hooked him in the crotch with three sets of treble hooks, and him saying "Oh God, pleaseeeee, don’t let him set the hook" Good one Craig!!! ROTFLMAO Abe Watson

Response:

Right after I bought my new 7′6" Flipping stick, I smacked myself right in the face with a two pound bass on the hook-set.  I was so shocked, I almost fell out of the boat.

Talk about rippin’ lips…wow…beats the heck out of my setting the hook to soon and having a Spittin’ Image wiz past my head. — Early to Bed, Early to Rise…    Fish all Day, Make up Lies    Shawn

Response:

Been There. . . Done That! The best was when I was fishing with a friend in a small 16′ tracker.  I was using a 7′ rod trying to skip a jerkbait under overhanging brush when my buddy got too close and I hooked him in the crotch with three sets of treble hooks, and him saying "Oh God, pleaseeeee, don’t let him set the hook" (I’m crying thinking about it).  You would’ve had to been there and seeing the look on his face, his stance, and him going "I’m afraid to move, Oh God, I’m afraid to move!  I know those hooks are as sharp as a razor blade!".  I was laughing so hard and he just standing there blabbing away.  "What are you laughing at! I can feel the points on those hooks in places they’re not suppose to be!".  I really did feel bad, but I couldn’t stop laughing., and the more afraid he got, the harder I laughed.  I finally suggested he slowly take off his pants so that we could remove the lure from his pants.  As he started taking his pants off, sure enough, one hook went through his jeans and underwear very close to his scrotum.  I handed him a pair of wire cutters to cut the hook off.  Every time I think about that day, I laugh so hard I cry.  You know, come to think about it, we haven’t fished together since that day.  I’m going to have to ask him if he wants to go fishing next time I see him. (I’m crying) — Craig Baugher — Craig Baugher

Response:

I must sound like a broken record by now, but I am passionate on this subject. I fish Flame Green Fireline exclusively on all my rigs, except for fly fishing of course. Other than being a little noisy, I think it is great. On the three spinning rigs I use regularly, I am rigged with 10#, 14# and 20#. On each I use 10′ long mono or fluorocarbon leaders of matching strength attached with blood-knots, although dual uni-knots would surely do as well. I love these setups because they cast incredibly well, are extremely reliable (I change leaders only once daily), cost effective (I have yet to change the Fireline on any reel), knot strength and integrity is great, visibility is superb and the sensitivity is such that I can feel a minnow fart from 20′ away. I leave my drags set reasonably and have never knowingly lost a fish as a result of lack of line stretch. I do have to stay conscious and sober when fishing so I don’t over-react and force things, but that is a small price to pay. I just don’t see a reason to compromise all these virtues just because I am afraid of pulling a hook out of a fish’s mouth, which I believe is usually avoidable. I promise not to repeat this diatribe for at least a week.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi John, I tournament fish quite a bit (7 since May 27) and do pretty well (Redman, Federation, Angler’s Choice, Opens, etc.).  Out of the seven I have fished so far, I was only out of the top 5 in one (15th place).  The reason I mention my record is because I don’t  use anything below 10 pound test.  I have become convinced that the only one who cares what line size we use is us, the fish don’t appear to care at all. But confidence is an important factor in successful fishing, and if you are not convinced that heavy line will catch fish, it won’t. On my spinning rods, I use 10 pound in ultra clear water and 12 or 14 pound test in must situations.  In my baitcasters, I use 17, 20, and 25 pound test.  I mostly use Trilene XT (Green), except I do have one flipping stick spooled with 17 Pound Vanish for flipping clear water.  I have to admit, I was nervous about going heavy at first.  But now, I love it.  That’s because I now have an extremely high confidence that once a fish is hooked, it’s coming to the boat.  Break offs are a thing of the past. But I do have to warn you about flipping with heavy line, especially on a short flip.  Fish Fly On Hook-set.  Right after I bought my new 7′6" Flipping stick, I smack myself right in the face with a two pound bass on the hook-set.  I was so shocked, I almost fell out of the boat. — Craig Baugher

Response:

Question:

return more hits on "scotch" than on "steelhead".   (I might actually try that.)

Joe please do not ever see how many hits you get about bluegill. Most respectfuly requested. Big Dale

Response:

Dejanews is a service which stores and indexes most if not all all usenet posts. Incredible, come to think of it. If you ever goof up in here, it won’t be forgotten.. Altavista has a Usenet search enigine too, I haven’t really compared it with the Deja service yet. Herman, having one or two unpleasant memories in the archives.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Where is deja.news and how do you access it? I’d be willing to bet that a deja news search of ROFF will return more hits on "scotch" than on "steelhead".   (I might actually try that.) I was wrong.   (There’s something you won’t hear often here, Brian.) "Steelhead" appeared in 1,095 posts in the last 12 months; while I had to allow "malt" as well as "scotch" to bring that total up to a creditable, if distant, 495.   (It’s luchtime and I had a few minutes, okay?) Joe F.

– Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

Hello all, I am new to this group.  I just found it the other day, and I have been very impressed by the courtesy and information found here (unlike a lot of Usenet). I have recently moved to Vancouver WA (just across the Columbia from Portland) from Wisconsin to follow my wife (good idea). Over the past several years, my father-in-law has made sure that I got out here to fish the Deschuttes with him.  Until I walked in that water, I had not know true trout.  We would put in at Trout Creek and take out 4 days later at Harpham Flats.  Normally we went during the salmon fly hatch (it is quite a thing having a "Redsides" take such a big bug). Needless to say, now that we have moved here, we have done a lot more fishing and my wife has wished a pox on the two of us for how much we are spending! To the point – On Sept. 24th, I am returning the favor and taking her father on the Deschuttes for a 4 day Steelhead trip.  I have never fished for them before, and I am very excited.  Any advice you all have would be greatly appreciated.  I already made the mistake (sort of – I got some great gear) of going to Kaufman’s and saying "I am going Steelhead fishing…what do I need?"  $1200 later I was out the door and ready for action (since I don’t drink I have to spend the money somewhere). Anyway, now that I have spewed all over this message, I would like to thank in advance for your help, and advice. Brian Blazer http://www.blazertechnologies.com

Response:

I am new to this group.  I just found it the other day, and I have been very impressed by the courtesy and information found here  <snip

Damn, are we doing that again? Welcome aboard, although we’re going to have to work on that not drinking thing.   I’d be willing to bet that a deja news search of ROFF will return more hits on "scotch" than on "steelhead".   (I might actually try that.) Seriously though, welcome.   Thicken your skin and jump in.   It ain’t always that cordial; but it’s always fun. Joe F.

Response:

Where is deja.news and how do you access it?

Deja News is at www.deja.com; but it’s easier to get specific answers if you use their "power search" at  www.deja.com/home_ps.shtml. Joe F.

Response:

Why do you persist in omitting "meniscus"?   Besides, I said a few minutes, not a few days.  :-)

meniscus?  What means?

Response:

Why do you persist in omitting "meniscus"?   Besides, I said a few minutes, not a few days.  :-) meniscus?  What means?

You know, that interface between the beer and the foam.   Recently mentioned in a remarkable 110 posts. Joe F.

Response:

meniscus?  What means? You know, that interface between the beer and the foam.   Recently mentioned in a remarkable 110 posts.

Mmmmmmm, BEER!  Now you’re speaking my language.  110 posts, really?  Wow, makes me feel like an influential guy.  Anybody care to define fly?

Response:

Mmmmmmm, BEER!  Now you’re speaking my language.  110 posts, really?  Wow, makes me feel like an influential guy.  Anybody care to define fly?

Sure.   It’s what men think with.  :-) Joe F.

Response:

To the point – On Sept. 24th, I am returning the favor and taking her father on the Deschuttes for a 4 day Steelhead trip.  I have never fished for them before, and I am very excited.  Any advice you all have would be greatly appreciated. Anyway, now that I have spewed all over this message, I would like to thank in advance for your help, and advice. Brian Blazer http://www.blazertechnologies.com

Brian, The Deschutes is spelled like what I wrote.   It sounds like the folks at Kaffmans got you all set up.   Your guide will do the rest with the type of fly’s that you should use.   If I only had one fly and was going to the Deschutes I would have a Frieght Train tied on to the leader.   Be sure to use a wading staff for you and your dad, it will save your butt from falling in so many times.  But when you do fall in keep your feet pointing down river, that will save your life. Sharp Hooks, Pat Holdzit Fishing Products Inc. http://www.holdzit.com Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …..(It’s luchtime and I had a few minutes, okay?) If you’ve got a few more minutes Joe please try: bastard loon PETA dam C&R C&K If you STILL have time on your hands I’ll try to come up with a more comprehensive list!

Why do you persist in omitting "meniscus"?   Besides, I said a few minutes, not a few days.  :-) Joe F.

Response:

I’d be willing to bet that a deja news search of ROFF will return more hits on "scotch" than on "steelhead".   (I might actually try that.)

I was wrong.   (There’s something you won’t hear often here, Brian.) "Steelhead" appeared in 1,095 posts in the last 12 months; while I had to allow "malt" as well as "scotch" to bring that total up to a creditable, if distant, 495.   (It’s luchtime and I had a few minutes, okay?) Joe F.

Response:

I’d be willing to bet that a deja news search of ROFF will return more hits on "scotch" than on "steelhead".   (I might actually try that.) I was wrong.   (There’s something you won’t hear often here, Brian.) "Steelhead" appeared in 1,095 posts in the last 12 months; while I had to allow "malt" as well as "scotch" to bring that total up to a creditable, if distant, 495.   (It’s luchtime and I had a few minutes, okay?) Joe F.

Thanks for the welcome… Maybe there are more posts about steelhead because of the few posts about scotch?  Or maybe the quantity of steelhead posts are because of the ammount of scotch? Brian http://www.blazertechnologies.com

Response:

…..(It’s luchtime and I had a few minutes, okay?)

If you’ve got a few more minutes Joe please try: bastard loon PETA dam C&R C&K If you STILL have time on your hands I’ll try to come up with a more comprehensive list!

Response:

Where is deja.news and how do you access it? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d be willing to bet that a deja news search of ROFF will return more hits on "scotch" than on "steelhead".   (I might actually try that.) I was wrong.   (There’s something you won’t hear often here, Brian.) "Steelhead" appeared in 1,095 posts in the last 12 months; while I had to allow "malt" as well as "scotch" to bring that total up to a creditable, if distant, 495.   (It’s luchtime and I had a few minutes, okay?) Joe F.

Response:

Question:

_______ I spent so much money today . . . buying the final Bastard Assembly Line Items, I don’t know how MUCH the Certified Check was for, but just the ink on it weighted 3 pounds.  (From what Gladys says)  The postage to send it Priority Mail cost her $22! I do know this.  Bastards are going to be worth every bit of $1800 – $2400 dollars right out of the starting blocks.  That I’m crazy enough to offer them for $300 as an introductory challenge to the world of fly fishing, does NOT mean I’m forced to hold these prices forever. Why don’t you guys move the conclave to here and help me build your fly rods? Today it is a steady, cold, spring rain.  My fax machine blew up.  Had to buy a new one.  Just now finished hooking it up. This was AFTER we mailed that BIG check. See your Grand American & Bastard Updates.  Order a reel with that Bastard Beauty that you have coming.  You only live once.  This is what a lot of you are doing. Visit: http://www.gink.com I’m looking for a good golf ball wax for this one golf ball I have.  Any suggestions Walt?  It is, by the way, beginning to look its age.  I’ve only played 112 rounds of golf with it.  Wayne will make it 113 which will be his spook number.  Possibly we should write a book about this one.  "How to Play With One Ball," by F. Burywood?  Forward by:  Wayne Harrison? Mr. G.

Response:

_______ I spe I’m looking for a good golf ball wax for this one golf ball I have.  Any suggestions Walt?  It is, by the way, beginning to look its age.  I’ve only played 112 rounds of golf with it.  Wayne will make it 113 which will be his spook number.  Possibly we should write a book about this one.  "How to Play With One Ball," by F. Burywood?  Forward by:  Wayne Harrison? Mr. G.

 George…you’re askin the wrong guy. I lose more damn balls than a schizoid squirel loses nuts. Hell, last time out I lost 18 damn balls in one round. I’d smack my tee shot and lose sight of the dang thing. After ’bout 4 hours of this crap I headed for the bar.  About 15 minutes later this guy walked in with his wife and gave me my damn 18 titleists back. He said, it’s proper golf ettiquette to remove the ball from the holes after you sink ‘em. Go figure. Waldo —          The Blue Ridge Book Gallery      P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604       http://www.mercury.net/~wgwinter to view our ongoing auctions at Ebay, click below… http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=blue…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – _______ I spe I’m looking for a good golf ball wax for this one golf ball I have.  Any suggestions Walt?  It is, by the way, beginning to look its age.  I’ve only played 112 rounds of golf with it.  Wayne will make it 113 which will be his spook number.  Possibly we should write a book about this one.  "How to Play With One Ball," by F. Burywood?  Forward by:  Wayne Harrison? Mr. G.  George…you’re askin the wrong guy. I lose more damn balls than a schizoid squirel loses nuts. Hell, last time out I lost 18 damn balls in one round. I’d smack my tee shot and lose sight of the dang thing. After ’bout 4 hours of this crap I headed for the bar.  About 15 minutes later this guy walked in with his wife and gave me my damn 18 titleists back. He said, it’s proper golf ettiquette to remove the ball from the holes after you sink ‘em. Go figure. Waldo

Mr.  G.

Response:

Question:

Give me a ‘desecrated fishery’ in solitude any day of the

But if it was "in solitude" it wouldn’t be desecrated.  My point is that desecration comes from problems much deeper than C&R.  I can show you plenty of desecrated C&K fisheries.  Have you fished the Miracle Mile? — -Wayne Trzyna

Response:

[deleted] But you and I have both lived and fished in Colorado long enough to have seen fisheries desecrated long before the recent upsurge in the popularity of C&R flyfishing.  C&R the source of our problems?  Do you really believe that?

Yes I do.  Give me a ‘desecrated fishery’ in solitude any day of the week over a tailwater stock pond with hordes of fishermen. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

and the only pure C&K places I have seen are fish farms<g. pure C&R stretches are more like fish farms then real fishing to me. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

What about fishing in the salt? Most saltwater fly fishing is c&r. –tony

Response:

pure C&R stretches are more like fish farms then real fishing to me. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Most of them are extremely crowded fish farms. Willi

Response:

We nailed 19-20 inch cutts this weekend.  And I’ll be god damned if I’ll tell any pure C&R-er where they are.  You see, a C&K-er might go nail a few, but a C&R-er is likely to commercialize the place and have my best friend Dave banned from ever going there. See the danger ?

Well, yes and no.  I’ve been following your arguments for several years, Tim, and while I see your point on some stuff, there is one major weakness: Unable to deal with the bigger problems of commercialization, development, and over-crowding of fisheries, you constantly scape-goat C&R. C&R is a symptom, not a cause.  It is no surprise that its religious fervor has grown greatest at high-visibility destination fisheries, since the outfitters there were quick to recognize that their livelihood was being threatened by over-fishing. But the problems of commercialization, development, and crowding are bigger than just fly-fishing or C&R.   There is always some unwitting well-meaning soul who will tell his friends about a good fishery, and on down the line, some blatantly selfish bastard seeking to profit by exploiting an area The latter comes in many forms, including real-estate developers and slimey policitians financing tax-cuts by selling or leasing off public assets. It’s a big problem, and we seem only to loose ground.  With such frustrating problems it’s easy to throw up our hands and seek a scape-goat.  I guess yours is C&R. But you and I have both lived and fished in Colorado long enough to have seen fisheries desecrated long before the recent upsurge in the popularity of C&R flyfishing.  C&R the source of our problems?  Do you really believe that?  I admit, the whole C&R fly-fishing "scene" is tightly interwoven with the problem and makes a great symbol for it.  But it’s a symtom.  You can eliminate C&R, but you won’t eliminate the problem. Your best bet is not to tell *anyone* about your secret cutthroat hole. It has nothing to do with C&R.  Zebco has a bigger cash-flow than Sage. — -Wayne Trzyna

Response:

and the only pure C&K places I have seen are fish farms<g.

pure C&R stretches are more like fish farms then real fishing to me. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

[a very typical multi use urban watershed described, deleted] While your point may apply in other places or conditions, in this case I think: Yes, the non-C&R public does not deserve access to their land.

I’m sorry Steve, but this really, really is what bugs me about pure C&R fishing.  Elitism.  Pure and simple.  I watched my friend Dave Erickson, a swede with fish blood in his veins, pick the cans and crap out of someone elses camp pit yesterday as we packed out…. Dave is a troller, a flyfisher, a bait fisher, a lure caster… No, Dave is just an angler…and he deserves access to that stretch you described.  As much or more then even you… And, I’ll tell you what… We nailed 19-20 inch cutts this weekend.  And I’ll be god damned if I’ll tell any pure C&R-er where they are.  You see, a C&K-er might go nail a few, but a C&R-er is likely to commercialize the place and have my best friend Dave banned from ever going there. See the danger ? — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

[deleted] How does that "overcrowded and food deficit situation" occur? (honest question). Fish at high altitude have a rough go of it.  Brookies reproduce like guppies and there is not enough food (because of mommy nature) and not enough predation (because of daddy dearest).

I have fished some high altitude steams and lakes (ponds really) in Colorado but none of them were C&R. In fact I don’t think I have ever fished in a ‘pure’ C&R stream, and the only pure C&K places I have seen are fish farms<g. — Charlie…

Response:

…snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In terms of multiple use of the waterway and crap in the bushes, why is C&R the answer to a littering problem…?  This has come up before and it bugs me. It is saying to the general public that does not flyfish that they are not welcome on their own public land. Finally…*pure* C&R is never necessary, this is plain scientific fact.  "Restricted Selective Harvest" is a much much better watch phrase for our community, IMO as it is based in science and not philosophy and can not be targetted s such. Respectfully, — TimW Halfordian Golfer

My home water is a mountain stream on "public" land at high elevation.  The trout population is mostly rainbow with a few cutts and crosses up high, and a few Dolly Varden.  We also have a summer steelhead and salmon run.  All the trout are wild and, because of the elevation, and the resulting short season, the fish must struggle a bit to survive.  The substrate is relatively alkaline however, so the fish food is good when the water finally warms up.  Lots of caddis, stone and mays, as well a "mountain" terrestrials — mostly termites and ants.  I’ve also seen a few sculpins.  Water level varies widely, from 500+ cfs in winter and spring, to 50-70 cfs in autumn. This stream’s drainage is also a recreation destination for four-wheelers and campers who live in the nearby metropolis, and is also a popular hunting area.  Much of the drainage has been logged in that last thirty years and the only old-growth forest remaining occurs in small patches — very few as large as a full section. This little speech serves as preface for my point: I have never seen a C&R fly fisher litter the stream or vandalize the forest.  I have seen all manner of disgusting behavior from other users.  Abandoned cars are the largest (and most easily removed) of the garbage that is dumped along the river, and trees have been hacked or shot down at every "campsite".  It’s amazing what a semi-automatic rifle will do to a stand of young firs.  I have also seen dead herons, crows, kites and ouzels.  I have seen four-wheel drive vehicles driving up the middle of the stream though perfect spawning beds.  I have also seen ten little six-inch or less rainbows laid out in a frying pan over a fire next to the river.  The limit on this steam is 2 over 12. I spend ten to thirty hours a week on this stream and I know most of the C&R fishers who frequent it.  None of them are among the criminal population mentioned above.   While your point may apply in other places or conditions, in this case I think: Yes, the non-C&R public does not deserve access to their land. Steve

Response:

[lots deleted] I think Selective Harvest in the situation described is completely ethical, while in a body with low populations, C&R makes more sense.

Isn’t pure C&R a form of Selective Harvest when that mortality which is incidental to pure C&R equals that culling which is optimal for maintaining or increasing the quality of a fishery.  If any amount of culling would be detrimental, then the fishery should be closed (to wit the greenies in RMNP) and not open to number counting C&R fanatics. I’d be happy if we shit-canned the phrase C&R in favor of selective harvest… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

Charlie Choc writes: <<I fish mostly in N GA where the streams are primarily stocked and "catch and stock freezer" is practiced. Many times I have seen folks following the stock trucks around and fishing out the pools, often ‘releasing’ smaller fish from their stringers to make room for bigger ones I had the pleasure of fishing the Chatooga River in N.E Ga this past March and saw the exact same thing.  

I just found out the other day the the Chatooga has some rather historical significance as well.  It’s where Deliverance was filmed. John Fereira

Response:

: : "It should be considered unethical to practice pure C&R : :  on a species of wild fish when that population : :  is in a overcrowded and food deficit situation." : Why?  We do not have gills (at least I don’t.)  Are you sure we are a : natural predator of the trout? The other post did a good job of questioning your reasoning of us not being a natural predator, but if you still think we aren’t, why make it a point anyways? Stunted western brook trout populations certainly aren’t "natural", and for that matter bows (mostly) and browns aren’t either. : I doubt the big fish practice C&R… let them do the natural : selection.   In many of these populations there *are no* big fish, no gill-based predators. : This is among the weakest arguments you have provided on this : topic.   Go to your room Tim. Watch out for the rebound  [sed s/Tim/Rick/g] JonCook.

Response:

: : How does that "overcrowded and food deficit situation" occur? (honest : question). Umm, good spawning habitat and not enough fish-eating predators? Surely you’ve caught stunted, big-headed [brookies, bluegill, bass, etc] somewhere? JonCook.

Actually not in ‘the wild’. I have fished farm ponds with an overpopulation of bluegill but they usually just poisoned the pond and restocked it. Still not sure what that has to do with C&R vs C&K, what if there were no fishing at all? Seems like the situation would take care of itself over time. — Charlie…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Charlie Choc writes: <<I fish mostly in N GA where the streams are primarily stocked and "catch and stock freezer" is practiced. Many times I have seen folks following the stock trucks around and fishing out the pools, often ‘releasing’ smaller fish from their stringers to make room for bigger ones I had the pleasure of fishing the Chatooga River in N.E Ga this past March and saw the exact same thing.   I just found out the other day the the Chatooga has some rather historical significance as well.  It’s where Deliverance was filmed. John Fereira

The movie was also filmed on the Talulla River (west of the Chatooga). I think that the big falls that Bert and the boys went over was on the Talulla. I used to fish a lot on the Talulla over twenty years ago when I lived in Georgia. North Georgia had some really pretty trout waters, I hope that it still does.

Response:

[deleted] How does that "overcrowded and food deficit situation" occur? (honest question).

Fish at high altitude have a rough go of it.  Brookies reproduce like guppies and there is not enough food (because of mommy nature) and not enough predation (because of daddy dearest). — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Charlie Choc writes: <<I fish mostly in N GA where the streams are primarily stocked and "catch and stock freezer" is practiced. Many times I have seen folks following the stock trucks around and fishing out the pools, often ‘releasing’ smaller fish from their stringers to make room for bigger ones I had the pleasure of fishing the Chatooga River in N.E Ga this past March and saw the exact same thing.  A majority of the fishermen were bait chuckers and spin casters.  The Chatooga is one of the few cold water rivers in Georgia capable of sustaining temperatures below 74 degrees, besides tailwaters (Chatahoochi below Bufford Dam for instance).  The pity of it is that the state has not made the Chatooga a catch and release river.  I know there is controversy on ROFF about catch and release, but on the Chatooga, it would make sense.  A majority of the fish released are caught within 24 hours.  But the thing that concerns me is the up-keep of the river.  The area around Burrells Ford is one giant trash heap.  Crap in the water, the woods, the road, you name it.  I walked upstream for about two miles before I got away from the chaos that the Chatooga has become.  It is a wonderfully beautiful river, not unlike what you might find in Maine.  If the state of Georgia does not do something quickly, they will lose this natural waterway.  Make it catch and release — no more stocking above the Rt 28 bridge.  If they don’t, it will soon look like the fair ground on Monday morning after the circus has left.

Couple O’ Questions and an observation… What is the biggest fish taken from Chatooga each year ? What would the effect of a selective harvest of say 1 fish of this size per day per angler, all others must be released, regulation be ? Do the fish reproduce successfully in the Chatooga ? In terms of multiple use of the waterway and crap in the bushes, why is C&R the answer to a littering problem…?  This has come up before and it bugs me. It is saying to the general public that does not flyfish that they are not welcome on their own public land. Finally…*pure* C&R is never necessary, this is plain scientific fact.  "Restricted Selective Harvest" is a much much better watch phrase for our community, IMO as it is based in science and not philosophy and can not be targetted s such. Respectfully, — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

From my journal… "It should be considered unethical to practice pure C&R  on a species of wild fish when that population  is in a overcrowded and food deficit situation." In other words, I will try not to throw rubber bones to starving dogs… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

: From my journal… : "It should be considered unethical to practice pure C&R :  on a species of wild fish when that population :  is in a overcrowded and food deficit situation." Why?  We do not have gills (at least I don’t.)  Are you sure we are a natural predator of the trout? I doubt the big fish practice C&R… let them do the natural selection.  This is among the weakest arguments you have provided on this topic.   Go to your room Tim. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

: From my journal… : "It should be considered unethical to practice pure C&R :  on a species of wild fish when that population :  is in a overcrowded and food deficit situation."

Consider that soon the human race will be stunted.  Do you think we’ll have big heads and little bodies? Why?  We do not have gills (at least I don’t.)  Are you sure we are a natural predator of the trout? I doubt the big fish practice C&R… let them do the natural selection.  This is among the weakest arguments you have provided on this topic.   Go to your room Tim.

Hmm.   It’s a plausible theory, Rick, but only a theory.  I know of many, many alpine lakes that are overpopulated with stunted fish.  There is size-threshold beyond which the fish just don’t grow. I’ve seen this condition with each of the following species:         brookies  (brookies, brookies, and more brookies)         cutts         bows         goldens The limiting factor is not genetic, either.  For instance the Montana dept of fish and game takes goldens out of Sylvan lake, where they are stunted, and plants them in other lakes where they grow to large sizes. Now that you mention it, I can’t understand why predation doesn’t solve the problem. — -Wayne Trzyna (Bobber Boy)

Response:

From my journal… "It should be considered unethical to practice pure C&R on a species of wild fish when that population is in a overcrowded and food deficit situation." In other words, I will try not to throw rubber bones to starving dogs…

How does that "overcrowded and food deficit situation" occur? (honest question). I fish mostly in N GA where the streams are primarily stocked and "catch and stock freezer" is practiced. Many times I have seen folks following the stock trucks around and fishing out the pools, often ‘releasing’ smaller fish from their stringers to make room for bigger ones. That seems to be about as pur C&K as one can get<g. Is it the ‘wild fish’ designation that makes the difference? — Charlie…

Response:

: From my journal… : "It should be considered unethical to practice pure C&R :  on a species of wild fish when that population :  is in a overcrowded and food deficit situation." Why?  We do not have gills (at least I don’t.)  Are you sure we are a natural predator of the trout? I doubt the big fish practice C&R… let them do the natural selection.  This is among the weakest arguments you have provided on this topic.   Go to your room Tim.

I just don’t think you read it… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

: From my journal… : "It should be considered unethical to practice pure C&R :  on a species of wild fish when that population :  is in a overcrowded and food deficit situation." Why?  We do not have gills (at least I don’t.)  Are you sure we are a natural predator of the trout?

Hmmm, are bears a natural predator of the trout?  They don’t have gills. What about Herons or other kinds of birds that feed on fish.  They don’t have gills either.  Should we therefore deem these animals to be somehow in the wrong to catch fish.  Shall I proceed further?  Would we consider hunting regulations to be unethical when, due to an increase in population the bag limit increases?  Is this not the same issue? I doubt the big fish practice C&R… let them do the natural selection.  This is among the weakest arguments you have provided on this topic.   Go to your room Tim.

I’m sorry, but, this is one of the strongest arguments which could be presented on this subject.  Perhaps we should apply this "C&R" concept to hunting.  I’m sure many hunters would agree that "the thrill of the hunt" is the most important part of hunting and the game they get to keep afterwards for food is a pleasurable byproduct of the hunt.  Should we therefore define hunters who kill their quarry unethical?  Maybe we shouldn’t hunt deer because we don’t have antlers.  Should hunters be imposed with regulations which would require them to only use tranquilizer guns to shoot the game?  They could then "release" the game to be hunted again at a later date. It should be our ethical responsibility to catch and kill fish when they are in an overpopulated, undernourished environment.  The results otherwise will end in large numbers of fish dying.  Then, depending upon extent of the fish kill, there is the time of repopulation.  It is more "humane" (take that as you may) to be allowed to "remove" a certain number of the population of any game species to prevent these things from happening. Mr. Fletcher, the logic which you are using to argue your point is fundamentally flawed.  Tim’s post could not have been more on track. I apologize to anyone who found the length of this response offensive.  I do not apologize for the content. John

Response:

If I remember my basic biology right, there may not be any big fish to do the natural selection. Each body of water has a carrying capacity of so many pounds per acre of life. If that number was, say, 10 lbs. then there could be one 10 lb. fish, 10 one lb. fish or 100 one-tenth pound fish. Mother Nature doesn’t care. When the body of water reaches capacity, fish populations start to stunt and all you have are small fish. As far as mankind being a natural predator for trout, we rank right up there with bears, raccoons, eagles and many other critters without gills. I think Selective Harvest in the situation described is completely ethical, while in a body with low populations, C&R makes more sense. — Web-Guides.com on the Internet at — http://web-guides.com FREE sample issue, subscription to Outdoor Adventure Digest     Webtours, Outdoor Adventures, ABC Books and more<< – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : From my journal… : "It should be considered unethical to practice pure C&R :  on a species of wild fish when that population :  is in a overcrowded and food deficit situation." Why?  We do not have gills (at least I don’t.)  Are you sure we are a natural predator of the trout? I doubt the big fish practice C&R… let them do the natural selection.  This is among the weakest arguments you have provided on this topic.   Go to your room Tim. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

Charlie Choc writes:

<<I fish mostly in N GA where the streams are primarily stocked and "catch and stock freezer" is practiced. Many times I have seen folks following the stock trucks around and fishing out the pools, often ‘releasing’ smaller fish from their stringers to make room for bigger ones I had the pleasure of fishing the Chatooga River in N.E Ga this past March and saw the exact same thing.  A majority of the fishermen were bait chuckers and spin casters.  The Chatooga is one of the few cold water rivers in Georgia capable of sustaining temperatures below 74 degrees, besides tailwaters (Chatahoochi below Bufford Dam for instance).  The pity of it is that the state has not made the Chatooga a catch and release river.  I know there is controversy on ROFF about catch and release, but on the Chatooga, it would make sense.  A majority of the fish released are caught within 24 hours.  But the thing that concerns me is the up-keep of the river.  The area around Burrells Ford is one giant trash heap.  Crap in the water, the woods, the road, you name it.  I walked upstream for about two miles before I got away from the chaos that the Chatooga has become.  It is a wonderfully beautiful river, not unlike what you might find in Maine.  If the state of Georgia does not do something quickly, they will lose this natural waterway.  Make it catch and release — no more stocking above the Rt 28 bridge.  If they don’t, it will soon look like the fair ground on Monday morning after the circus has left. Dave LaCourse

Response:

Question:

I’m having a real problem finding a pair of wading boots that don’t slip.

I think the footwear you need are two different beasts.  You are asking one pair of boots to adequately perform two wildly different tasks; if your boot works well for hiking it’s no good for wading, and if it works well wading it’s a crummy hiking boot.  I don’t think one boot will meet both your needs. You’ve just got to be willing to carry the extra weight. Anglerboy — Trout fear me, Women want me.

Response:

I’m having a real problem finding a pair of wading boots that don’t slip. I had Orvis boots with carbide cleats that worked pretty well for 5 or 6 trips but then they lost traction. Part of the problem may be that to get to the good fishing on the little local creeks I fish, a 5-10 mile hike over broken terrain is required. I’ve used tennis shoes, but they fall apart after 3 or 4 trips. My last 3 trips I’ve tried rubber wading shoes ( uncomfortable after 5 miles and not much traction) and regular hiking boots, which are great for the walk in but clumsy and slippery in the stream. I’m thinking about sandals with cleats but hate to keep throwing out $50 a pop to experiment. If anyone can advise me I’d be eternally grateful.

Response:

I’m having a real problem finding a pair of wading boots that don’t slip. I had Orvis boots with carbide cleats that worked pretty well for 5 or 6 trips but then they lost traction. Part of the problem may be that to get to the good fishing on the little local creeks I fish, a 5-10 mile hike over broken terrain is required. I’ve used tennis shoes, but they fall apart after 3 or 4 trips. My last 3 trips I’ve tried rubber wading shoes ( uncomfortable after 5 miles and not much traction) and regular hiking boots, which are great for the walk in but clumsy and slippery in the stream. I’m thinking about sandals with cleats but hate to keep throwing out $50 a pop to experiment. If anyone can advise me I’d be eternally grateful.

I usually have shorter walks in the one to two mile range, mostly on gravel or over forest paths with my Weinbrenner studded boots.  The soles are felt with a metal stud.  They have lasted well, probably because the studs support the soles over rock etc.  I’m in to my fifth season with them and they have probably been used on over 100 occasions, most involving some kind of hike.  The studs on my boots are hardly worn despite the use. Peter

Response:

I’m having a real problem finding a pair of wading boots that don’t slip. I had Orvis boots with carbide cleats that worked pretty well for 5 or 6 trips but then they lost traction. Part of the problem may be that to get to the good fishing on the little local creeks I fish, a 5-10 mile hike over broken terrain is required. . . .

You can make your own chain sandals with supplies from the hardware store, that weigh less than a pound so are worth carrying on a hike.  In use they often slip, but once customized you can usually add extra hooks to one or two eyelets to keep them in place. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

Response:

Last year I was given a pair of wading boots from LL Bean that have a special rubber bottom which was supposedly designed by a company that manufactures rock climbing shoes. The soles are designed to grip wet rocks well instead of slipping. I was a bit dubious about these boots when I first got them, but I have used them now for awhile and they work quite well. They are at least as stable as felt soles when wading and work just like hiking boots on the way to the stream. They are called "Aqua-Stealth" wading boots and cost $90/ pair. I would think that they might be ideal for someone who likes to hike a long ways into a stream. You may want to give LL Bean a call (800) 221-4221. I have no financial interest in LL Bean (sigh…) but thought this might help solve your problem. Steve Rosenblum Ann Arbor, MI

Response:

I’m having a real problem finding a pair of wading boots that don’t slip. I had Orvis boots with carbide cleats that worked pretty well for 5 or 6 trips but then they lost traction. Part of the problem may be that to get to the good fishing on the little local creeks I fish, a 5-10 mile hike over broken terrain is required. I’ve used tennis shoes, but they fall apart after 3 or 4 trips. My last 3 trips I’ve tried rubber wading shoes ( uncomfortable after 5 miles and not much traction) and regular hiking boots, which are great for the walk in but clumsy and slippery in the stream. I’m thinking about sandals with cleats but hate to keep throwing out $50 a pop to experiment. If anyone can advise me I’d be eternally grateful.

I’ve a similar problem. . . only I walk in on sharp gravel access roads that tear all the felt off the boot. . . So I got a pair of cheap Fly-Tech boots. . . really just a glorified canvas boot with a rubber boot sole ($27.00). Then I use galoshes style cleats that slip over the boot. I can carry the cleats in a vest or fanny pack until I get where I’m going. The other option is to pack a day pack and stash it or lug it around with you all day. . . or wet wading and fishing from the bank a great deal.

Response:

I think the footwear you need are two different beasts.  You are asking one pair of boots to adequately perform two wildly different tasks; if your boot works well for hiking it’s no good for wading, and if it works well wading it’s a crummy hiking boot.  I don’t think one boot will meet both your needs. You’ve just got to be willing to carry the extra weight.

I disagree.  Gym shoes are my favorite hiking attire, and make decent wading shoes. Besides, like it or not, all hiking shoes tend to become wading shoes at stream crossings or during heavy rains. — -Wayne Trzyna

Response:

Question:

I live in Denver, Colorado and fish the South Platte in Deckers and also Cheesman Canyon. I’ve been fishing nymths 98% of the time and do quite well. I fly cast okay, but seem to have a hard time fishing the dries. Keeping them floating right,ect… Anyway, I’ve wondered if its best to fish in short casts and if its possible to fish riffles and choppy waters? Should I only fish the eddies? Any suggestions would be appreciated because I’m going to be fishing dries more often. Thanks, Cliff

Response:

I live in Denver, Colorado and fish the South Platte in Deckers and also Cheesman Canyon. I’ve been fishing nymths 98% of the time and do quite well. I fly cast okay, but seem to have a hard time fishing the dries. Keeping them floating right,ect… Anyway, I’ve wondered if its best to fish in short casts and if its possible to fish riffles and choppy waters? Should I only fish the eddies? Any suggestions would be appreciated because I’m going to be fishing dries more often. Thanks, Cliff

Hi Cliff, Fishing dry flies is a fun, rewarding experience. You didn’t say but are you using a dry fly floatant like Loon, Gink, or BT’s?  That helps keep the flies floating. In time any fly will become water logged and should be placed on the fleece patch on your vest to dry and a replacement tied on. Yes it’s quite ok to fish riffles and choppy waters but that does not mean to pass up the softer water and eddies.  I really recommend you fish the same water you nymph fish in.  If you catch fish in this water with nymph, then a dry fly should work as well.  Also it’s really important to observe what the fish are doing.  If they are rising in an area ten minutes spent just seeing what they seem to be feeding on can give an idea what you want to use as a fly.  If nothing is happening on the surface I find attractor flies like Royal Wulff, Humpy, or Stimulator to be a good searching pattern. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

Response:

<snip Anyway, I’ve wondered if its best to fish in short casts and if its possible to fish riffles and choppy waters? Should I only fish the eddies? Any suggestions would be appreciated because I’m going to be fishing dries more often. Thanks, Cliff

Hi Cliff, In addition to the points made in Al Beatty’s excellent post I might add that we sometimes fish heavily dressed flies in heavy water and lightly dressed flies on smooth water. I hope this helps,   Alan.   Alan Barnard   Kiene’s Fly Shop   Sacramento, California   WWW Fly Tyer   http://www.ns.net/~barnard

Response:

I live in Denver, Colorado and fish the South Platte in Deckers and also Cheesman Canyon. I’ve been fishing nymths 98% of the time and do quite well. I fly cast okay, but seem to have a hard time fishing the dries. Keeping them floating right,ect… Anyway, I’ve wondered if its best to fish in short casts and if its possible to fish riffles and choppy waters? Should I only fish the eddies? Any suggestions would be appreciated because I’m going to be fishing dries more often. Thanks, Cliff

Another thing you should try is to fish more upstream than across to get better drifts.  The more of your line that you can get in the same current lane the easier the drift is.  You’ll notice it takes a softer touch to mend line on dry flies than on nymphs.  If you treat the leader with paste floatant before you get it wet, it will stay on top instead of in the surface film and allow you to mend the entire leader if needed.  Otherwise the leader will absorb enough water in about 10 minutes to just sink into the surface film, and when you try to mend it, the line will mend but the leader won’t and it will drag the fly under or out of position. Also, a short excellent drift (5-10ft) is better than a long mediocre drift (20+ feet).  Practice your stealth and remember the first cast into the right spot has the best chance of success.                                         Good Luck,                                                Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

Response:

I live in Denver, Colorado and fish the South Platte in Deckers and also Cheesman Canyon. I’ve been fishing nymths 98% of the time and do quite well. I fly cast okay, but seem to have a hard time fishing the dries. Keeping them floating right,ect… Anyway, I’ve wondered if its best to fish in short casts and if its possible to fish riffles and choppy waters? Should I only fish the eddies? Any suggestions would be appreciated because I’m going to be fishing dries more often. Thanks, Cliff

Start doing it.  The trout will tell you if you’re doing it right or wrong.

Response:

I live in Denver, Colorado and fish the South Platte in Deckers and also Cheesman Canyon. I’ve been fishing nymths 98% of the time and do quite well. I fly cast okay, but seem to have a hard time fishing the dries. Keeping them floating right,ect… Anyway, I’ve wondered if its best to fish in short casts and if its possible to fish riffles and choppy waters? Should I only fish the eddies? Any suggestions would be appreciated because I’m going to be fishing dries more often. Thanks, Cliff

Ty finding a copy of "Prospecting for Trout" a great book. Don Burns

Response:

I think you’re slightly missing the point about dry fly fishing as to whether to make long casts or short, fish riffles, etc. The thing about fishing dries is that you are casting to trout that are rising for flies. That is, when they rise and make a swirl at the surface, the fish is telling you where it is. So you have to cast to it, no matter whether it is a short or long cast, whether it is rising in a riffle or an eddy. You have to make the cast that will get your fly to it. In my opinion that’s what makes dry fly fishing much more exciting that fishing wet flies or nymphs and just covering the water in hopes that a fish will hit.   It is a totally visual type of fishing, as you cast that dry to the rising fish and watch with excitement and hope that the fish will be fooled by your artificial. I realize there are times when there are no fish rising and I just cast an attractor fly in hopes that a fish will hit it. But the real excitement comes when you’re fishing a hatch of mayflies and fish are rising everywhere for them. Of course this type of fishing can become very frustrating as you go thru your flybox trying to figure out what fly the fish are taking. Of course, you’ll get a lot of practice tying knots at times like that.  That’s what sets dry fly fishing apart from other types of fishing.  

Response:

Question:

The Madison River is open from Hebgen to Quake Lakem, year around.   It’s closed from Quake to Macatee till the 3rd Saturday in May.  It’s open from Macatee to Ennis Bridge, year around, and it is closed from Ennis Bridge to Ennis Lake from December 1 through the 3rd Saturday in May. Dave Kumlien, Montana Troutfitters,Bozeman html

Hi Dave, Thanks for the information, it’s right on. I enjoy your posts, keep them up. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

Response:

Does anyone know if the special closure on the Madison between Lyons and Pallisades is in effect for 1996?

From what I have heard it is open. Take Care,

Response:

   Here’s the deal on the upper Madison.  Quake to Lyons will open on the 3rd Saturday in May and will close at the end of November.  Lyons to Squaw creek is open the same way.  Squaw to Windy Point is permanently closed as a study/control section.  Windy Point to Macatee is closed right now, but it will reopen on the 3rd Saturday in May.  Macatee to Ennis Bridge is open right now, and will remain open year around.  Ennis Bridge to the Ennis Lake is closed(critical goose nesting habitat by the lake), and it will reopen the 3rd Saturday in May.  If you can keep track of all of that, you pass the bar exam! http://www.gomontana.com/Business/Trout/trout.html

Response:

Does anyone know if the special closure on the Madison between Lyons and Pallisades is in effect for 1996?

as far as I know the river is currently closed from quake lake to ennis until the 3rd saturday in may….

Response:

I think its open in the upper stretch because my nephew was fishing around the Raynolds Pass bridge during spring break.

Response:

I think its open in the upper stretch because my nephew was fishing around the Raynolds Pass bridge during spring break.

Probably illegally…as I understand it the rive ris closed from Quake Lake to below Ennis until sometime in May..

Response:

The Madison River is open from Hebgen to Quake Lakem, year around.   It’s closed from Quake to Macatee till the 3rd Saturday in May.  It’s open from Macatee to Ennis Bridge, year around, and it is closed from Ennis Bridge to Ennis Lake from December 1 through the 3rd Saturday in May. Dave Kumlien, Montana Troutfitters,Bozeman html

Response:

Does anyone know if the special closure on the Madison between Lyons and Pallisades is in effect for 1996?

Response:

Does anyone know if the special closure on the Madison between Lyons and Pallisades is in effect for 1996?

Looks like it will be open.  See http://www.cyberport.net/flyfish/cent_reg.html for regs.  A phone call may be in order. — "If the facts do not conform to the theory, they must be disposed of."      Maier’s Law

Response:

Question:

writes: Can anyone give me some good advice on flyfishing in CentralNorth Jersey.  I’m new to the area and have fished on the south branch of the Raritan (Califon), but it’s incredibly crowded.  Would appreciate any pointers E-mail me back! Thanks Paul Amatangelo

Paul, Along with the Musconetcong River, you may want to try the Pequest, Paulinskill, and Big Flatbrook in New Jersey.  However, you may want to drive the extra distance and fish such rivers as the Bushkill and Lackawaxen in Pennsylvania, as well as the Beaverkill, Esopus, and the East & West branches of the Delaware River in New York. All these rivers are within two hours driving time from northern New Jersey.     Good Luck!

Response:

I am 15 years old and live in Princeton NJ. I just started Fly Fishing a year ago and have tried many a spots in this area. Right in Princeton is the Stoney Brook which is stocked with trout and other fish and is known to produce bass and perch. The Assunpink River (not lake) has alot of perch and Shad and has produced a few trout and bass for me. The Pequest and Flatbrook rivers are also very good for trout. But for bass fly I would recomend a spot that I found two years ago when I was a spin fisher. It is in the Delaware Raritan canal. IT is right by the main entrance to the Bulls Island Campground on the Delaware River. Its on the New Jersey side in case your confused. Thats all I can THink of but if you would like advice on other spots feel free to write. Matt

Response:

Saturday, May6 I went to the North branch of the Raritan at Rte 206 and 287. Very little crowd.  I didn’t catch any trout but another fellow had 3 on a stringer.

Response:

Can anyone give me some good advice on flyfishing in CentralNorth Jersey.  I’m new to the area and have fished on the south branch of the Raritan (Califon), but it’s incredibly crowded.  Would appreciate any pointers E-mail me back! Thanks Paul Amatangelo

Response:

Try the Musky west of the route 24 bridge just pass the fly stretch. This area has produced some 8 lb fish. I know, from first hand experience I didnt catch it, put a witnessed the fight and landing of the monster. The person who caught it was a rookie, only his third time out. Some people have all the luck. Good Luck.

Response: