Question:

The 2IC wandered into my office yesterday and noted that the 1IC was detained and wouldn’t be in for the rest of the day … I looked at my duffle bag (which contains accoutrements for annoying fish) looked back at the 2IC and said "I might make it to 3:30 this afternoon …" I didn’t – at 2:50 I teed up the pick-up and we were well on our way by 3:30.  How is it that roadwork crews unfailingly select peak hour to rip up roadways? Does it take them all day to find the road to be ripped up?  Is it their way of making sure the maximum number of rate payers "notice" them? If so, they do a mighty fine job of it. Bugger ‘em. I’d scoped out a pool and glide a few weeks ago that provided some terrific dry-fly fishing mid-morning and that’s where we were heading. It was a bit warm waiting to get through the council induced traffic snarl but the air-con worked well as always – we just opened the windows wider.  Actually the weather looked a bit stormy before we hit the Divide and the cool mountain air. A few spots of rain as we geared up was all the inclemency suffered and the clouds gradually dissipated as the afternoon wore on. As I said, I scoped this stream a few weeks ago, and you guessed it: nary a fish in places I found them previously.  We fished, peeked, snuck, and skulked around and through through some nice looking water only picking up the odd fish.  We weren’t moving fast enough for me though – I really wanted to see that pool and its tailout. Bugger – a couple of fish in side channels. We did our best … he to catch them, me to get a wriggle on.   Columns of midges a metre in diameter and some 3-5 metres high  were evident over some of the backwaters – how many insects in those columns?   They twisted and gyrated like huge schools of baitfish being rounded up by predators.  A combination of the fluky breeze and the midges’ urges drove the column to writhe, twist and seemingly eject adults at the base of the column. There lay a single predator waiting and sipping the evicted with unhurried confidence.  Those that escaped that vortex trickled out of the backwater and down stream past us and into a drop pool.  You have to get your rocks off quick if you’re a midge. At last! The pool. They rose. All of them.  They rose and we cast, and we cast and we cast.  Then the takes started – one, two, three – six or more  missed.  Bigger fly same pattern – its getting dark. _Somebody_ was fairing a little better and had one, the bounder was using a swing I noticed on his second.  Not an unreasonable tactic considering the number of caddis about.  Same dry fly, cast to the same fish, cast across and drawn as it approached a fishes position bought good solid takes and hook-ups.   Certainly my imaginings about the pool had more than been matched by the reality at least on this occasion. A  pleasant surprise and a lovely place to put a bend in a new rod. As for Caddis: to dead-drift or not: that is the question: Whether ’tis nobler to suffer the rings and splashes of short takes, or to take arms against a battery of upstream dry-fly men and, by opposing, offend?  Yet by a swing we end the heart-ache and catch. Steve (humblest apologies to Bill … and any who got this far

Response:

…….(humblest apologies to Bill … and any who got this far

Yeah, well, billy’s on his own.  Besides, he understood the groundlings.  Nice stuff, Steve. Not sure exactly where you’re at.  I was almost enticed into a backpacking trip in the Blue Mountains a couple of years ago.  Any fish there? Wolfgang

Response:

Not sure exactly where you’re at.  I was almost enticed into a backpacking trip in the Blue Mountains a couple of years ago.  Any fish there?

It’s not my neck of the woods, but yes there are.  Small stream’s that you’d be used to, with populations of small browns and rainbows. The Cox’s River is rather larger and had (I haven’t heard much of it in the last few years) a significant rainbow run each winter (at least I think its winter).   Steve

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not sure exactly where you’re at.  I was almost enticed into a backpacking trip in the Blue Mountains a couple of years ago.  Any fish there? It’s not my neck of the woods, but yes there are.  Small stream’s that you’d be used to, with populations of small browns and rainbows. The Cox’s River is rather larger and had (I haven’t heard much of it in the last few years) a significant rainbow run each winter (at least I think its winter). Steve

Hm…….interesting.  One last questions then.  Ya’ll got any REAL beer down there?      :) Wolfgang

Response:

Hm…….interesting.  One last questions then.  Ya’ll got any REAL beer down there?      :)

Yep, you can also get Bud if you want it.   Steve

Response:

Question:

Have you done this walk up Hazel as an overnighter?  It has been my experience that what is a six hour walk with a fly rod is a whole different critter than hiking in with a backpack, tent, etc.  At any rate, I’m in if the sceduling can be worked out.  Any idea what the actual mileage is?

never done it…they wouldn’t let you fish up there FOR 25 YEARS!  why would i walk that far *not* to fish…  now that it’s open to fishing, i’m yearning to take a look at the water.  i’m thinking it’s 8-10 miles up to the walkers creek, proctor creek area based on my map. the cascade is about 13 miles… but maybe someone who’s a hiker and been in there can tell us –  and…the trail is a flat road, much easier walking than snowbird.  there are carts with big wheels…  can’t we do 8 miles in 6 hours? btw…i’m still wet-wading in october… neoprenes seem a bit much for carolina fall fishing. I agree about the neoprenes but my one experience fishing with you in October suggests that wading wet could be a bit iffy……

yeah, but that’s why we’ll be carryin the lightweight goretex <g.  it’s when you’re done fishin that the wetness and the evening chill gets you… the days are great, unless it rains. it’s o.k. if you’re naturally numb from the waist down

i can’t help it if you’re easily numbed… those of us with sturdy scrotum and "turtle" reflex find it invigorating… but for those of us who are of the neck up persuasion

…hmm, thought ee cummings described them as boston women… it would come down to a choice between walking on our hands or perhaps wearing lightweights.      :)

damn…if only i’d known what might have occurred if i’d gotten the lightweights instead of the socks… jeff (makin a note) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have you done this walk up Hazel as an overnighter?  It has been my experience that what is a six hour walk with a fly rod is a whole different critter than hiking in with a backpack, tent, etc.  At any rate, I’m in if the sceduling can be worked out.  Any idea what the actual mileage is? never done it…they wouldn’t let you fish up there FOR 25 YEARS!  why would i walk that far *not* to fish…  now that it’s open to fishing, i’m yearning to take a look at the water.  i’m thinking it’s 8-10 miles up to the walkers creek, proctor creek area based on my map. the cascade is about 13 miles… but maybe someone who’s a hiker and been in there can tell us –  and…the trail is a flat road, much easier walking than snowbird.  there are carts with big wheels…  can’t we do 8 miles in 6 hours?

"Got Speed Bumps?"

Response:

no speed bumps so far…but i’ve only been up about 3 miles.  i’ve been told wayno’s had the park rangers drive him up the road, so maybe he can describe upper hazel. i believe you could do it no problem.  didn’t you go up a ways when wayno hit his big rainbow? jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Got Speed Bumps?"

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have you done this walk up Hazel as an overnighter?  It has been my experience that what is a six hour walk with a fly rod is a whole different critter than hiking in with a backpack, tent, etc.  At any rate, I’m in if the sceduling can be worked out.  Any idea what the actual mileage is? never done it…they wouldn’t let you fish up there FOR 25 YEARS!  why would i walk that far *not* to fish…  now that it’s open to fishing, i’m yearning to take a look at the water.  i’m thinking it’s 8-10 miles up to the walkers creek, proctor creek area based on my map. the cascade is about 13 miles… but maybe someone who’s a hiker and been in there can tell us –  and…the trail is a flat road, much easier walking than snowbird.  there are carts with big wheels…  can’t we do 8 miles in 6 hours?

Shit, Tripper can do eight miles in six hours on a flat road in a big wheel cart……um……well, if Petah is pushing it. btw…i’m still wet-wading in october… neoprenes seem a bit much for carolina fall fishing. I agree about the neoprenes but my one experience fishing with you in October suggests that wading wet could be a bit iffy…… yeah, but that’s why we’ll be carryin the lightweight goretex <g.  it’s when you’re done fishin that the wetness and the evening chill gets you… the days are great, unless it rains.

I LOVE rain…..it’s warmer than the creek! it’s o.k. if you’re naturally numb from the waist down i can’t help it if you’re easily numbed… those of us with sturdy scrotum and "turtle" reflex find it invigorating…

Uh…….remind me not to watch you bathe up there…..o.k.?      :( but for those of us who are of the neck up persuasion …hmm, thought ee cummings described them as boston women…

I’ll have to defer to mr. harrison vis mr. cummings…..they speak the same language. it would come down to a choice between walking on our hands or perhaps wearing lightweights.      :) damn…if only i’d known what might have occurred if i’d gotten the lightweights instead of the socks…

Oh yeah, they’re indispensable, as Mr. Tup so eloquently put it. jeff (makin a note)

Uh huh, about a fourth register E if mine ear doth not deceive me. Wolfgang who would recommend a good geographer to explain the nice distinction between flat and level.    :)

Response:

On my topo map this looks to be a pretty ambitous trip. Approximately 13.5 miles and 2000 feet of elevation. Early in May my son and I walked up to the campsite at the confluence of Hazel and Sugar Fork. It’s about 5.6 miles by the trail and 425 feet vertically from the lake. Had a full pack with pasta and dehydrated meals for two days, tent, sleeping bag, thermarest, primus stove, waders, wading boots, rod, vest, etc. And one can of St. Louis’ best beer.  I figure the pack weighed at least 30 lbs. It seemed much heavier. The fishing apparatus added more weight (total = 40?) and hassle. Furthermore, I was pretty sadly out of shape. Having listed all those excuses, it took between four and five hours to make the trip. That included several stops along the way to admire the creek. You all have been on the trail before – it’s a gentle grade and fairly easy walk if you don’t try to take your entire net worth in equipment. But a 13 or 14 mile walk with full pack and fishing gear is a fairly major undertaking. Wet wading in Smoky mountain streams in October takes more fortitude than I have. I’m numb enough from the waist down already, and it gets worse every year. Bob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …well, this appears to be the beginnings of yet another fine idea. i suggest you take charge of it, establish some proposed dates, and we’ll set up a new thread to see what develops. if zimbo is still hereabouts, perhaps he’ll post the dates of his gathering – i’m gonna be in the smokies the week of oct 19-26th with rachel – the 21st is her birthday. i can probably manage a 3-day camping trip either before that week or at the latter part of that week, or i can take a 4 day weekend thursday-sunday at another time. the park service provides some carts we can use to roll supplies up the trail if anyone wants or needs to bring some special stuff. Have you done this walk up Hazel as an overnighter?  It has been my experience that what is a six hour walk with a fly rod is a whole different critter than hiking in with a backpack, tent, etc.  At any rate, I’m in if the sceduling can be worked out.  Any idea what the actual mileage is? btw…i’m still wet-wading in october… neoprenes seem a bit much for carolina fall fishing. I agree about the neoprenes but my one experience fishing with you in October suggests that wading wet could be a bit iffy……it’s o.k. if you’re naturally numb from the waist down but for those of us who are of the neck up persuasion it would come down to a choice between walking on our hands or perhaps wearing lightweights.      :) Wolfgang

Response:

"Got Speed Bumps?" no speed bumps so far…but i’ve only been up about 3 miles.  i’ve been told wayno’s had the park rangers drive him up the road, so maybe he can describe upper hazel. i believe you could do it no problem.  didn’t you go up a ways when wayno hit his big rainbow?

I know we went past the "town", maybe a mile or two up the road from there. It wasn’t a hard hike up to wherever we ended up. otoh, we nearly had to have a certain Boy Lawyer airlifted out of there after he caught a WAY-too-big-for-Hazel-Creek rainbow… /daytripper (You think he had the Rangers "salt" the creek for ‘im, too?

Response:

…nothing like a week in graham county to confirm i’ve wasted the better part of my life down here in the crowded flatlands of coastal nc… a situation i hope to correct in the next year or two. anyway, it was an incredible week of fiSSSSHing 5 of my favorite streams in nc, S[******], S[nowbird], S[assafrass], S[anteetlah], and H[azel], briefly recounted as follows: Saturday – rachel and i arrived at the snowbird house, bought some groceries, and settled in… well, sorta.  i was busy getting the fishing stuff settled on the table, rachel did the practical stuff – unpacked clothes and groceries. just before dark (it didn’t get dark until after 9), i walked the 10 feet to the stream out back and fished the two runs that always yield a fish or two – yup, still happenin! two rainbows on an ehc…one was the typical 8 incher caught in the deeper cut of the main current where wolfgang snapped a picture or two of me in   an evening stupor last october; the other was a nice 12 inches or more, caught by "bowling" the fly downstream about 50 feet around the bend of a deeper, quiet pool. satisfied the week was properly started, i ambled outta the stream, back up the gentle bank to a well-prepared spaghetti dinner and a chilly beer. thus began my week’s adventure of solitary fishing in some of the best streams in the smokies  …         SUNDAY – fished S.[******], the stream that yielded those 3 big rainbows last october.  arrived around 9 am, parked in the same place as last year.  the road was a bit worse, but manageable.  this was my day of paying proper devotion and respect – so, after humbly thanking all the spirits and deities, and making a silent oath not to break that commandment about the lord’s name, a kinder, gentler, easier-goin jeff set out up the road to the spot wally and i stopped in our october frenzy, the soul-filling gift of zimbo’s 6′ bamboo rod & the abandoned socks of wolfgang at the ready for a full day in the stream. didn’t see or hear another person the entire day.  S[******]is at about 3000 feet elevation at this point, and it’s headwaters are near a bald which is above 5000 feet. getting to it requires a drive up a steep, narrow grade of dirt and rocks for a mile or so until the road becomes unmanageable with a vehicle… the upper stretch is a rutted, rocky path only 4-wheelers can traverse safely.   from the point i entered the stream, until the pool i quit, with the exception of one pocket, i either caught a fish or had one rise to the fly. except for several brookies, all were rainbows of the usual size with a few approaching or just at ten inches.   size 14 and 16 ehc and parachute adams never failed to attract a fish. after a while, i started playing around with various dry flies just to see what would happen – color didn’t matter, but the size did. though they’d come up and look at the #12 stimulator, i guess it just looked a bit too big to tangle with, or it was easier to distinguish as a phony bug…i don’t know. but switch off to a smaller fly and no problem.  THE HIGHLIGHT – near the close of the day, once the leader had gotten cut back from all the fly changing, as a lark i tied on a flashy green and black bugger i had acquired from a mail order outfit in england a few years ago. i was at one of the deeper pools with a nice froth of white water formed by the stream falling from the pool above. casually tossed the bugger into the froth, let it sink a bit, twitched it back towards me and, damn…what’s this…quite a different feel… jeezusfuckingchri…(ok, i confess… i never was too good at keeping that particular commandment)… it was an honest 12" brookie (spec)- the biggest wild nc brook trout i’ve ever caught! fat, heavy, and healthy looking. what a day!  fellas, seeing a 12" spec in nc is an experience akin to seein pj in a tuxedo dancin a waltz at the terpsichorean ball in raleigh. … unique, if ya get my drift. …i continued up a few more pools with the bugger, catching rainbows, until i pulled out around 5 pm, then walked up the road for 30 minutes or so just exploring a bit…yup, there’s still a lot of water left for the next trip. [cont.]

Response:

Marvelous TR, Jeff. Hope you don’t keep us waiting too long for the next installment in the series! I’m sitting here in sultry Missouri reading your TR and listening to a segment on CBS Sunday Morning about the rhododendrons blooming in the appalachians. In fact, they juxtaposed that segment with a segment about subway musicians in New York. My GPS tells me that it’s 430 miles to my favorite spot on Snowbird. But my bank account tells me the office is a hell of a lot closer. Congratulations on having a wife who puts up with your fishing!! Bob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …nothing like a week in graham county to confirm i’ve wasted the better part of my life down here in the crowded flatlands of coastal nc… a situation i hope to correct in the next year or two. anyway, it was an incredible week of fiSSSSHing 5 of my favorite streams in nc, S[******], S[nowbird], S[assafrass], S[anteetlah], and H[azel], briefly recounted as follows: Saturday – rachel and i arrived at the snowbird house, bought some groceries, and settled in… well, sorta.  i was busy getting the fishing stuff settled on the table, rachel did the practical stuff – unpacked clothes and groceries. just before dark (it didn’t get dark until after 9), i walked the 10 feet to the stream out back and fished the two runs that always yield a fish or two – yup, still happenin! two rainbows on an ehc…one was the typical 8 incher caught in the deeper cut of the main current where wolfgang snapped a picture or two of me in   an evening stupor last october; the other was a nice 12 inches or more, caught by "bowling" the fly downstream about 50 feet around the bend of a deeper, quiet pool. satisfied the week was properly started, i ambled outta the stream, back up the gentle bank to a well-prepared spaghetti dinner and a chilly beer. thus began my week’s adventure of solitary fishing in some of the best streams in the smokies  … SUNDAY – fished S.[******], the stream that yielded those 3 big rainbows last october.  arrived around 9 am, parked in the same place as last year.  the road was a bit worse, but manageable.  this was my day of paying proper devotion and respect – so, after humbly thanking all the spirits and deities, and making a silent oath not to break that commandment about the lord’s name, a kinder, gentler, easier-goin jeff set out up the road to the spot wally and i stopped in our october frenzy, the soul-filling gift of zimbo’s 6′ bamboo rod & the abandoned socks of wolfgang at the ready for a full day in the stream. didn’t see or hear another person the entire day.  S[******]is at about 3000 feet elevation at this point, and it’s headwaters are near a bald which is above 5000 feet. getting to it requires a drive up a steep, narrow grade of dirt and rocks for a mile or so until the road becomes unmanageable with a vehicle… the upper stretch is a rutted, rocky path only 4-wheelers can traverse safely.   from the point i entered the stream, until the pool i quit, with the exception of one pocket, i either caught a fish or had one rise to the fly. except for several brookies, all were rainbows of the usual size with a few approaching or just at ten inches.   size 14 and 16 ehc and parachute adams never failed to attract a fish. after a while, i started playing around with various dry flies just to see what would happen – color didn’t matter, but the size did. though they’d come up and look at the #12 stimulator, i guess it just looked a bit too big to tangle with, or it was easier to distinguish as a phony bug…i don’t know. but switch off to a smaller fly and no problem.  THE HIGHLIGHT – near the close of the day, once the leader had gotten cut back from all the fly changing, as a lark i tied on a flashy green and black bugger i had acquired from a mail order outfit in england a few years ago. i was at one of the deeper pools with a nice froth of white water formed by the stream falling from the pool above. casually tossed the bugger into the froth, let it sink a bit, twitched it back towards me and, damn…what’s this…quite a different feel… jeezusfuckingchri…(ok, i confess… i never was too good at keeping that particular commandment)… it was an honest 12" brookie (spec)- the biggest wild nc brook trout i’ve ever caught! fat, heavy, and healthy looking. what a day!  fellas, seeing a 12" spec in nc is an experience akin to seein pj in a tuxedo dancin a waltz at the terpsichorean ball in raleigh. … unique, if ya get my drift. …i continued up a few more pools with the bugger, catching rainbows, until i pulled out around 5 pm, then walked up the road for 30 minutes or so just exploring a bit…yup, there’s still a lot of water left for the next trip. [cont.]

Response:

… it was an honest 12" brookie (spec)- the biggest wild nc brook trout i’ve ever caught! fat, heavy, and healthy looking. what a day!

Not too shabby at all

Response:

…well, this appears to be the beginnings of yet another fine idea. i suggest you take charge of it, establish some proposed dates, and we’ll set up a new thread to see what develops. if zimbo is still hereabouts, perhaps he’ll post the dates of his gathering – i’m gonna be in the smokies the week of oct 19-26th with rachel – the 21st is her birthday. i can probably manage a 3-day camping trip either before that week or at the latter part of that week, or i can take a 4 day weekend thursday-sunday at another time. the park service provides some carts we can use to roll supplies up the trail if anyone wants or needs to bring some special stuff.

Have you done this walk up Hazel as an overnighter?  It has been my experience that what is a six hour walk with a fly rod is a whole different critter than hiking in with a backpack, tent, etc.  At any rate, I’m in if the sceduling can be worked out.  Any idea what the actual mileage is? btw…i’m still wet-wading in october… neoprenes seem a bit much for carolina fall fishing.

I agree about the neoprenes but my one experience fishing with you in October suggests that wading wet could be a bit iffy……it’s o.k. if you’re naturally numb from the waist down but for those of us who are of the neck up persuasion it would come down to a choice between walking on our hands or perhaps wearing lightweights.      :) Wolfgang

Response:

Naw – that coven is down close to Stecoah.  Sometimes it meets in Bryson City depending on which politician is in town. This is way the hell too far in the boondocks.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  i’m thinking – we need to hike and camp near the cascade falls on hazel creek…who knows what a placid soul might discover up there. anyone interested? i hear tell that there’s a unsavory rattlersnake worshippin’ coven up in those parts…. –waldo d;^)

Response:

Naw – that coven is down close to Stecoah.  Sometimes it meets in Bryson City depending on which politician is in town. This is way the hell too far in the boondocks.

naaaahh bob, yer thinkin’ ufduh dolly parton mandolin strummin’ coppahead group that meets at tooties every udduh toosday. weird group, dancin widda coppaheads to 9-5… weird stuff but well worth da show if ya can drop in on toosday evenins…. whatever da hell ya do…. don’t go into the kitchen….bad, really bad mojo. duh group way up on hazel, well, bone creek pickahs. days banjo and jug tootin’ fellahs…… meanest dirty rotten sob’s you’d ever wanna come across….. hell, ask wayno, he’ll tell ya  d;^) –waldo, workin’ way too late….

Response:

Hell, Waldo, I don’t know if you’re thinking of the last Snowbird ROFF clave in the second case, or a stockholders meeting here, in the first case, both of which I missed but both of which sound familiar based on reports from observers . . .

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Naw – that coven is down close to Stecoah.  Sometimes it meets in Bryson City depending on which politician is in town. This is way the hell too far in the boondocks. naaaahh bob, yer thinkin’ ufduh dolly parton mandolin strummin’ coppahead group that meets at tooties every udduh toosday. weird group, dancin widda coppaheads to 9-5… weird stuff but well worth da show if ya can drop in on toosday evenins…. whatever da hell ya do…. don’t go into the kitchen….bad, really bad mojo. duh group way up on hazel, well, bone creek pickahs. days banjo and jug tootin’ fellahs…… meanest dirty rotten sob’s you’d ever wanna come across….. hell, ask wayno, he’ll tell ya  d;^) –waldo, workin’ way too late….

Response:

Never one to flinch from doing my duty for God and Country. October would be a fine time – even late October. If we could tie it in with Zimbo’s soiree that would be great. I feel like I made a three-day trip up Hazel in 2 days early in May. A six-hour walk up and a five-hour walk down didn’t leave much fishing time in two days. I’d agree three days is the minimum unless you really groove on walking. Also, if one has to walk five miles while wearing neoprenes, it’s more comfortable in October than in May. And by late October the bears should be doing their final snacking before settling in for the winter! Bob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – as you’ve probably heard, they’ve opened portions of hazel that have been closed to all fishing for 25 years – as an experiment to see if the fisherman actually affects the brook trout population in any meaningful way.  i believe it is our duty to participate in this grand experiment … but, it will require at least 3 days.  the hike in will be 6 hours at least…  if there’s any interest, it’s time to start planning.  i don’t know who is going where in october – zimbo floated a blue ridge gathering, i’ll be in the smokies with rachel the week of oct. 20. anyway, let me know if you’ve got a preference as far as dates and we’ll see what develops. jeff Jeff – I’d like to join up on such an expedition if it was planned well in advance. It’s an all-day drive for me, like it probably is for you. I would make a several-day trip of it and combine two or three days on Hazel with some other fishing – maybe on the Tellico river downhill from McDaniel Bald or on one of the creeks in the Snowbird/Santeetlah area. Bob //snip// i’m thinking – we need to hike and camp near the cascade falls on hazel creek…who knows what a placid soul might discover up there. anyone interested? jeff

Response:

…well, this appears to be the beginnings of yet another fine idea. i suggest you take charge of it, establish some proposed dates, and we’ll set up a new thread to see what develops. if zimbo is still hereabouts, perhaps he’ll post the dates of his gathering – i’m gonna be in the smokies the week of oct 19-26th with rachel – the 21st is her birthday. i can probably manage a 3-day camping trip either before that week or at the latter part of that week, or i can take a 4 day weekend thursday-sunday at another time. the park service provides some carts we can use to roll supplies up the trail if anyone wants or needs to bring some special stuff. btw…i’m still wet-wading in october… neoprenes seem a bit much for carolina fall fishing. jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Never one to flinch from doing my duty for God and Country. October would be a fine time – even late October. If we could tie it in with Zimbo’s soiree that would be great. I feel like I made a three-day trip up Hazel in 2 days early in May. A six-hour walk up and a five-hour walk down didn’t leave much fishing time in two days. I’d agree three days is the minimum unless you really groove on walking. Also, if one has to walk five miles while wearing neoprenes, it’s more comfortable in October than in May. And by late October the bears should be doing their final snacking before settling in for the winter! Bob as you’ve probably heard, they’ve opened portions of hazel that have been closed to all fishing for 25 years – as an experiment to see if the fisherman actually affects the brook trout population in any meaningful way.  i believe it is our duty to participate in this grand experiment … but, it will require at least 3 days.  the hike in will be 6 hours at least…  if there’s any interest, it’s time to start planning.  i don’t know who is going where in october – zimbo floated a blue ridge gathering, i’ll be in the smokies with rachel the week of oct. 20. anyway, let me know if you’ve got a preference as far as dates and we’ll see what develops. jeff Jeff – I’d like to join up on such an expedition if it was planned well in advance. It’s an all-day drive for me, like it probably is for you. I would make a several-day trip of it and combine two or three days on Hazel with some other fishing – maybe on the Tellico river downhill from McDaniel Bald or on one of the creeks in the Snowbird/Santeetlah area. Bob //snip// i’m thinking – we need to hike and camp near the cascade falls on hazel creek…who knows what a placid soul might discover up there. anyone interested? jeff

Response:

Good stuff Jeff. That certain Southern Style creeps in to all your writing. When you return from the HF you’ll be changed slightly bruce h

Response:

Good stuff Jeff. That certain Southern Style creeps in to all your writing. When you return from the HF you’ll be changed slightly

Yep, before you know it, you will be wearing big hats and cowboy boots, and have a three inch circle worn into your ass pocket by the Cope tin.  You will be driving a full- size American pickup truck with a gun rack and a Labrador retriever (or two) in back, and you won’t even unhitch the boat trailer to go to the grocery store.  Where, btw, you will be buying Rainier beer and beef, not chardonnay and green vegetables.  Your favorite rod will be a nine foot six or seven weight graphite, not the 6 foot bamboo.  Your fly vest will contain as many Woolly Buggers as anything else, and you will wear your waders into even the best restaurants. You will bitch about how the out-of-staters are ruining everything, even though you were one recently.  You will have NRA stickers on your truck, and will vote Republican religiously, even if the GOP candidate is a drooling idiot. The trout you catch will average 18 inches no matter how big they really were.  You will start conversations with "Cold enough for you?" "Hot enough for you?" "Seen any salmonflies yet?" or "Got your elk yet?" depending on the season. I could keep this up all day. Just remember to get some 130 gr. bullets for your .270, and eat the parsley, because it’s the only vegetable you’re getting. Kevin, part-time Montanan

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Great, well written report Jeff damn…what’s this…quite a different feel… jeezusfuckingchri…(ok, i confess… i never was too good at keeping that particular commandment)… it was an honest 12" brookie (spec)- the biggest wild nc brook trout i’ve ever caught! fat, heavy, and healthy looking. what a day!  fellas, seeing a 12" spec in nc is an experience

Congrats, beautiful fish! It may be the best Brookie you ever catch in NC! Willi

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When you return from the HF you’ll be changed slightly bruce h

… um…, uh oh. … not sure i catch yer drift there, pardner.   trust that ain’t wayno-speak…unless, of course, "bruiser" is the descriptive pseudonym for a henry’s fork working lady, in which case, i bruise quite easily.  <g however, just from looking at rw’s photos and some of the web sites for hf, i’m feeling a metamorphosis coming on already. looking forward to it all… jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Congrats, beautiful fish! It may be the best Brookie you ever catch in NC!

thanks…easily the "best" so far, although the ones wolfgang and i made acquaintance with up at the middle falls pool last october were pretty spec-tacular. … still, i plan to keep hunting for that next best one as long as i’m upright and forward moving. i’m thinking – we need to hike and camp near the cascade falls on hazel creek…who knows what a placid soul might discover up there. anyone interested? jeff

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Kevin wrote.Yep, before you know it. snip. Priceless…Thanks Kevin. Big Dale

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Congrats, beautiful fish! It may be the best Brookie you ever catch in NC! thanks…easily the "best" so far, although the ones wolfgang and i made acquaintance with up at the middle falls pool last october were pretty spec-tacular. … still, i plan to keep hunting for that next best one as long as i’m upright and forward moving. i’m thinking – we need to hike and camp near the cascade falls on hazel creek…who knows what a placid soul might discover up there. anyone interested? jeff

Does sound like a beautiful fish alright – I bet there’ll be a few more buggers and streamers in your future. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Jeff – I’d like to join up on such an expedition if it was planned well in advance. It’s an all-day drive for me, like it probably is for you. I would make a several-day trip of it and combine two or three days on Hazel with some other fishing – maybe on the Tellico river downhill from McDaniel Bald or on one of the creeks in the Snowbird/Santeetlah area. Bob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – //snip//  i’m thinking – we need to hike and camp near the cascade falls on hazel creek…who knows what a placid soul might discover up there. anyone interested? jeff

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 i’m thinking – we need to hike and camp near the cascade falls on hazel creek…who knows what a placid soul might discover up there. anyone interested?

i hear tell that there’s a unsavory rattlersnake worshippin’ coven up in those parts…. –waldo d;^)

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as you’ve probably heard, they’ve opened portions of hazel that have been closed to all fishing for 25 years – as an experiment to see if the fisherman actually affects the brook trout population in any meaningful way.  i believe it is our duty to participate in this grand experiment … but, it will require at least 3 days.  the hike in will be 6 hours at least…  if there’s any interest, it’s time to start planning.  i don’t know who is going where in october – zimbo floated a blue ridge gathering, i’ll be in the smokies with rachel the week of oct. 20. anyway, let me know if you’ve got a preference as far as dates and we’ll see what develops. jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff – I’d like to join up on such an expedition if it was planned well in advance. It’s an all-day drive for me, like it probably is for you. I would make a several-day trip of it and combine two or three days on Hazel with some other fishing – maybe on the Tellico river downhill from McDaniel Bald or on one of the creeks in the Snowbird/Santeetlah area. Bob //snip// i’m thinking – we need to hike and camp near the cascade falls on hazel creek…who knows what a placid soul might discover up there. anyone interested? jeff

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Question:

Actually they are not. Change in angle of attack (not pitch)  changes the airspeed. Pitch change and angle of attack change are not always coincident, as we both well know. And of course, increased  pitch can indeed make the aircraft go up, since it can change the airspeed and therefore the power requirement, and the excess power causes the aircraft to climb.

As we say in my field, "Everything is deeply intertwingled."  Most control inputs on aircraft are NOT isolated in their effects.

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Check out the latest instrument flying handbook (page 5-17). Entering a constant rate climb is different to managing a constant rate climb once you’re established – if you’re not entering it right and hence not getting established right then it probably is difficult to get it all sorted out. If you’re trying to do this in 500 foot chunks (pattern A, pattern B etc.) try a 3000 foot climb, that will give you plenty of time to work out all the relationships. Performance = power + attitude So know what power setting and what pitch angle gets the result you want, set those values and the plane will do what you want. Mat

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

Response:

Learn the pitch attitude on the AI and the power that give you specific performance. Maintain attitude/power setting to see if that gives you what you want and adjust accordingly. Just don’t chase the airspeed and VSI needles. Bracket it in with small pitch or power changes. Kind of like tracking a course .. track a heading .. evaluate it’s effect .. then change heading if needed. It might help to go out VFR and make a list of the attitude and power combos that give specific descent/climb/airspeed. Write these down and memorize them as starting points in the future. I think you’re on the right track with pitching to vertical speed and adjust airspeed with power.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

Response:

Well, I looked up "intertwingled", and I couldn’t find it. The nearest I  could find  is "intertwined" and "intermingled", so I will assume your word "intertwingled" is a coinage of a word to mean something between the two, or perhaps a combination thereof. The thing I fail to see is your point, unless you mean, for example, that there is an intertwingling when a  change of pitch results in a change of angle of attack which results in a change in airspeed which results in a change of the power required to maintain altitude, thus the aircraft cl;imbs. Which is what I said in the first place, so I agree.  It’s intertwingled.  So one could maintain that a pitch change is what makes the aircraft climb.   But it would indicate a lack of understanding, don’t you agree? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually they are not. Change in angle of attack (not pitch)  changes the airspeed. Pitch change and angle of attack change are not always coincident, as we both well know. And of course, increased  pitch can indeed make the aircraft go up, since it can change the airspeed and therefore the power requirement, and the excess power causes the aircraft to climb. As we say in my field, "Everything is deeply intertwingled."  Most control inputs on aircraft are NOT isolated in their effects.

Response:

Well, I looked up "intertwingled", and I couldn’t find it. The nearest I  could find  is "intertwined" and "intermingled", so I will assume your word "intertwingled" is a coinage of a word to mean something between the two, or perhaps a combination thereof.

You’re right, it’s a made up word, but it was coined by one of the key people in the field so it shows up from time to time. The thing I fail to see is your point, unless you mean, for example, that there is an intertwingling when a  change of pitch results in a change of angle of attack which results in a change in airspeed which results in a change of the power required to maintain altitude, thus the aircraft climbs.

Changing the pitch, changes the angle of attack, which increases lift and causes the plane to climb.  It also slows the plane down, which decreases lift.  Of course drag also plays into this, which all means that you just can’t change one control in isolation to the others no matter what you are trying to accomplish. Back when I was working for the Army, another Army lab nearby did some Human Engineering work with a fly-by-wire helicopter system.  They totally decoupled the controls as the pilot saw them:  The "collective" made you go up and down at a rate proportional to it’s displacment , the "cyclic" caused you to translate in the direction of it’s displacement, the pedals just rotated the aircraft at a speed proportional their displacment.  It evidentally drove anybody who really knew how to fly helicopters crazy as they wanted to put in the corrections that their training had conditioned them to know were required.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I looked up "intertwingled", and I couldn’t find it. The nearest I  could find  is "intertwined" and "intermingled", so I will assume your word "intertwingled" is a coinage of a word to mean something between the two, or perhaps a combination thereof. You’re right, it’s a made up word, but it was coined by one of the key people in the field so it shows up from time to time. The thing I fail to see is your point, unless you mean, for example, that there is an intertwingling when a  change of pitch results in a change of angle of attack which results in a change in airspeed which results in a change of the power required to maintain altitude, thus the aircraft climbs. Changing the pitch, changes the angle of attack, which increases lift and causes the plane to climb.  It also slows the plane down, which decreases lift.  Of course drag also plays into this, which all means that you just can’t change one control in isolation to the others no matter what you are trying to accomplish.

There may be a momentary increase in lift, which causes an acceleration upwards, but I would not call it "causing the plane to climb".  I think it is more aptly called "swooping", which takes place until the aircraft returns to steady state. Steady state climbing has nothing to do with increasing lift.  It is due to excess of power.   Lift is equal to weight as it was in level flight. (Yes I know: sum of upward forces = sum of downward forces, for the purists). And one other thing.  It is quite possible to change one control in isolation to the others.  Whjat is variable is the aircraft’s resulting performance. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Back when I was working for the Army, another Army lab nearby did some Human Engineering work with a fly-by-wire helicopter system.  They totally decoupled the controls as the pilot saw them:  The "collective" made you go up and down at a rate proportional to it’s displacment , the "cyclic" caused you to translate in the direction of it’s displacement, the pedals just rotated the aircraft at a speed proportional their displacment.  It evidentally drove anybody who really knew how to fly helicopters crazy as they wanted to put in the corrections that their training had conditioned them to know were required.

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Well, I looked up "intertwingled", and I couldn’t find it. The nearest I  could find  is "intertwined" and "intermingled", so I will assume your word "intertwingled" is a coinage of a word to mean something between the two, or perhaps a combination thereof. You’re right, it’s a made up word, but it was coined by one of the key people in the field so it shows up from time to time.

Which field is that?  And who? Just curious, John

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I looked up "intertwingled", and I couldn’t find it. The nearest I  could find  is "intertwined" and "intermingled", so I will assume your word "intertwingled" is a coinage of a word to mean something between the two, or perhaps a combination thereof. You’re right, it’s a made up word, but it was coined by one of the key people in the field so it shows up from time to time. Which field is that?  And who?

Systems Analysis.  Tom DeMarco (principle guy at Yourdon).

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Yes, I was taught to lead with a power setting. The instructor even had me make up a list of typical power settings and post them on the panel. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you know the power setting and pitch that will give you the desired performance it should be easy.  Just set the power and pitch and the plane will climb at the desired rate.  Same thing for descents.  Don’t chase the VSI. Mike MU-2 I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

– "ground zero" is clearing up, but the fallout from the towers still rains down around the world.

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I struggled with this too until a seemingly obvious discovery was made; I wasn’t using the AI to set pitch.  After years of flying slippery gliders w/o AIs, and transitioning to  flying lightly loaded light aircraft, it never occurred to me to use the AI to set pitch in a climb or descent. Why?  Well, the slippery stuff is quite sensitive to pitch and not as stable as light planes, but since you fly it in turbulent conditions most of the time, and because they lack good visible references over the nose, and because power is constant (0), and because they are usually cranked over in a steep bank, I ended up using the airspeed most of time (the glider VSI is useless in determining pitch).  That is, look at the horizon then calibrate it by looking at the airspeed (esp airspeed trend).  Anyway, this works quite well in lightplanes, even under the hood when you combine it with the VSI…. at least up to a point… My instructors never really noticed except that my climbs and descents weren’t always as crisp as they should be.  I slowly discovered that I could use the AI to set a specific pitch attitude along with a specific rpm/mp to get a specific climb or descent.  One bar up, one bar down, etc.  I know the old pros here are probably snickering but I wonder if they specifically tell students how to use line widths on the AI to set up a specific pitch (?). No one told me that since my first instructional flights back in the 70s — and they probably should have covered up the AI then.  Otis, you were the first person in this post to specifically state what  one should do.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Learn the pitch attitude on the AI and the power that give you specific performance. Maintain attitude/power setting to see if that gives you what you want and adjust accordingly. Just don’t chase the airspeed and VSI needles. Bracket it in with small pitch or power changes. Kind of like tracking a course .. track a heading .. evaluate it’s effect .. then change heading if needed. It might help to go out VFR and make a list of the attitude and power combos that give specific descent/climb/airspeed. Write these down and memorize them as starting points in the future. I think you’re on the right track with pitching to vertical speed and adjust airspeed with power. I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

Response:

Just fly the airplane. Get used to it. Add some power, pitch up if needed, trim, and maintain steady climb. Take power off, pitch down if needed, trim, and keep a steady descent. Just get a feel for it — there’s nothing mechanical about it. Getting a feel for the airplane you fly will tell you how much of each to do so that you can arrive at the desired point quickly and without too much fishing for the right settings. Go out on your own with the airplane, better without instructor on board, nobody to contaminate your thought process and play a couple of hours in changing its configuration to desired climbs and descents until you become smooth. Go slow flight, back and forth until you get a sense for the acceleration and deceleration while doing pitch and power changes and keeping level or exact VSI numbers. At one point I had memorized the setting on the Archer, until they rebuilt the engine and it felt like it got more power, then I had to get resettled so that I could fly my IFR routines smoothly.  Forget about the physics discussions, most folks love to talk about a subject they lack — you need solid differential calculus to truly claim to understand how exactly the forces interact but thankfully it is not needed. Just fly the damn thing.         D.         PP_ASEL IA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

Response:

Yeah, find a power and pitch combo that will give you the performance you want.  When you want a certain constant rate climb just set your power, set your pitch(and maintain it) wait till the aircraft stabilizes and then make final corrections.  Usually the aircraft will stabilize at the target airspeed if you are patient and you won’t find yourself chasing needles. Use the VSI only as a trend instrument unless you have a Vario or IVSI, even then (1) Power,for climb (2) Pitch, to airspeed (3) verify Rate when stabilized at target airspeed.  With a little practice this sequence becomes automatic , and very reliable.  Once the numbers are determined the only variant factors are mainly, load(gross wt.), altitude, configuration , and C.G. Happy Flying R.Wallace CFIAIM

Response:

That’s how I was taught early on .. and I learned back in the 70s too. One bar .. two bar .. up .. down .. xxxx rpm. I think most problems chasing the needles come from dwelling on certain instruments and not maintaining a good scan with the AI as "home base". Actually .. there’s an old book I have laying around somewhere .. I can’t recall the exact title .. I want to say "Performance Flying’"??? Anyway it explains a lot of this and actually gives examples of attitude and power for several different aircraft. I’ll try to find it and post exact title. Don’t know if it’s still available or not.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I struggled with this too until a seemingly obvious discovery was made; I wasn’t using the AI to set pitch.

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Thanks for all of your suggestions. Sounds like I need to go out and do a little experimenting with the plane on my own to find the right combinations of pitch/power to get the right results.

Response:

I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place.

I don’t want to get into a pitch/power argument here, but… You already have your constant airspeed climb and descent, right? Set up the exact same way. Note your climb or descent rate. Assuming a fixed pitch propeller, add or reduce power by 100 rpm increments, maintaining the same airspeed (you’re already trimmed for it, aren’t you?) until you get the rate you want. Now you’ll know the pitch/power combination for that rate in your airplane. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions?

You used the word "lag." So you already know the answer. WAIT the 5-6 seconds before you do anything else! – Mark Kolber APA, Denver, Colorado www.midlifeflight.com       email? replace "spamaway" with "mkolber

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Okay Capt…..   when you are 100′ agl on final in your Boeing and your speed degrades, you push the nose down right…???     Read the Delta crash report at DFW many years ago and you will be enlightened…. John….. an almost 20,000 hour pilot who has is figured out

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Excess power only means an airplane is capable of climbing……    increasing angle of attack makes it climb…. or changes the rate of climb

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I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

Many long years ago when I was in learning to fly instruments, I had the same problem. The trouble was that I found it very difficult to hold a constant pressure fore-and-aft on the yoke.  I solved the problem by locking my arm into position against the side wall of the aircraft and the arm rest.  If I needed to adjust elevators, I would move my whole arm slightly.  I could still adjust aileron with finger pressure.  Later, I learned what the trim tab was for. I still use the locked arm trick when it is bumpy.  It keeps the bumps from causing elevator inputs. The Comanche can be quite sensitive in pitch.  It works for me.  YMMV. Hank Henry A. Spellman Comanche N5903P

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I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed,

Wow!!!  20,000+ hours and never knew that this was the way that I should be doing it.  Maybe I needed a different flight instructor.  :-)  :-) Power make the airplane go up and down….. Pitch  makes the airplane go fast or slow……. These are basic aerodynamic principles. Bob Moore ATP ASMEL  B-707, B-727, L-188 CFI  ASE-IA USN  S-2F, P-2V, P-3B PanAm (retired)

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Power make the airplane go up and down….. Pitch  makes the airplane go fast or slow…….

        Not according to the FAA which recommends power to establish speed and pitch to stay on the glide slope.

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"Pitch to the glideslope, power to the airspeed." That’s the way I was taught to fly jets, and that’s the way the autopilot does it. Bob Gardner

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, Wow!!!  20,000+ hours and never knew that this was the way that I should be doing it.  Maybe I needed a different flight instructor.  :-)  :-) Power make the airplane go up and down….. Pitch  makes the airplane go fast or slow……. These are basic aerodynamic principles. Bob Moore ATP ASMEL  B-707, B-727, L-188 CFI  ASE-IA USN  S-2F, P-2V, P-3B PanAm (retired)

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Actually they are not. Change in angle of attack (not pitch)  changes the airspeed. Pitch change and angle of attack change are not always coincident, as we both well know. And of course, increased  pitch can indeed make the aircraft go up, since it can change the airspeed and therefore the power requirement, and the excess power causes the aircraft to climb. Unless, fo course, you are on the back side of the power curve, in which case… But I know you know all that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, Wow!!!  20,000+ hours and never knew that this was the way that I should be doing it.  Maybe I needed a different flight instructor.  :-)  :-) Power make the airplane go up and down….. Pitch  makes the airplane go fast or slow……. These are basic aerodynamic principles. Bob Moore ATP ASMEL  B-707, B-727, L-188 CFI  ASE-IA USN  S-2F, P-2V, P-3B PanAm (retired)

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Power make the airplane go up and down….. Pitch  makes the airplane go fast or slow……. These are basic aerodynamic principles.

This always reminds me of the joke where the student goes out on the runway and jams the control wheel forward and the instructor asks what he’s doing and he says "when this thing hits 60, you push the throttle in and we’ll climb."  :-)

Response:

I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

Response:

If you know the power setting and pitch that will give you the desired performance it should be easy.  Just set the power and pitch and the plane will climb at the desired rate.  Same thing for descents.  Don’t chase the VSI. Mike MU-2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

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Question:

Perfectly true, I also started with a seven weight rod. Far too heavy for most things I do, but I had no choice at the time, and was completely uninformed in any case.  I do feel that people tend to divorce the equipment from the intended purpose too much.  It may well be easier for a beginner to cast with a nine foot six weight rod and a weight forward line, but this is rarely the optimum equipment for actually fishing. If possible for stream fishing, I would probably choose a four weight about eight feet in length, if I was restricted to one rod. This offers delicacy and lightness, which are more conducive to stealthy fishing. I have several six weight rods, and although I do use them occasionally, I have not used them for stream fishing for a long time, they are just too heavy. This is not to say that they can not be used, but for me the experience is enhanced by the use of light delicate equipment which is suited to the job at hand. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de This is not directly about rod choice, but indirectly it is.  Especially

<SNIP

Response:

This is not directly about rod choice, but indirectly it is.  Especially for someone fishing small to medium sizes streams and rivers for trout, distance casting is not as important as the ability to place a short cast where you want it and in a relatively delicate, controlled manner. When trying out a new rod, the natural inclination seems to be to see how long of a cast you can make with the rod.  The fact is most of your fishing is going to be on casts thirty feet or less. The rod that is best for belting a cast may not be the best for you at close distances.   Based on my definition of a small to medium stream or river, I would recommend a four or five weight to start. I started with a six weight but now find it is either too heavy or too light for most fishing. It is my least used rod. For me, control in close is easier with a moderate or slower action rod. Willi

Response:

 I would start with an 8 1/2′ five weight. You can fish almost any water with that size rod and fish it comfortably.

….a rod like this one Wayne?    john http://www.ezflyfish.com/grfoutfits.html

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….a rod like this one Wayne?    john http://www.ezflyfish.com/grfoutfits.html

Tis what I started with. — Wayne Knight Expert in creating tailing loops and windknots Otherwise Fishless in Kansas

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As an instructor (ahem) I find that most of my adult male clients prefer a fast actioned 9′0 5/6wt rod. Floating line (because of its bright colour) is usually easier to see – and I reckon for a beginner FF is an extremely visual sport. Ladies seem prefer a lighter rod to start with. Around 8′0 and 4/5 wt is ideal. Not meaning to be sexist but I find that the ladies don’t like to wave a heavier rod around for too long. The longer you can keep the rod in their hands, the easier it is to keep them interested. Kids up to the age of 10ish or 11ish go for the shorter rods – 7′6" 3/4 wts. They understand that you don’t have to cast too far out to catch a fish. I spent an interesting weekend watching a 5 year old cast tighter (and further) loops on his 2/3wt 7′0 rod than most adults could. Allways fast actioned is the secret though in my opinion. Most beginners hava a tendency to false cast too rapidly, which can be a problem on slow rods. Ari Ari Bert                                        Gaelle Bert +27 (0) 83 232 9903                             +27 (0) 83 236 5308 Flyfishing Corner +27 (0) 11 447 7230                             Shop 94, Admirals Court +27 (0) 11 882 8537 (fax)                       Cnr Craddock & Tyrwhitt www.troutfishing.co.za                                Street, Rosebank P.O.Box 79067 Senderwood 2145 South Africa

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With all the manufacturers to choose from, I can sure use some assistance. I’ve  read all kinds of interesting things about what to purchase. Here’s what I’mlooking for. I fish small to medium sized streams for trout. I read that an 8′6wt is a perfect first setup. I also read that if you’re over 5′8, buy 8.5′rod and under 5′8 buy a 7.5 rod. All advise a slow to med action rod.

First off, forget that height to rod length crap unless you’re 10 years old. Myth Second, While I personally beleive a slow-medium action rod is a better rod, until you have a casting stroke it is a moot point. There are some people who say a fast action rod is a better rod to learn to fish on. Third, eventually several folks will ring in suggesting everything from a Cabelas to a top of the line Sage, In your price range there are several good rod and reel combos available from many makers. But each rod is a little different and each will require an adjustment from the fisherman. What might be a good rod to your buddy or one of us could be a poor tool for you. I would ignore and stay away from the Cabelas and the Bass Pro’s unless you are near one of the stores, because one, I have a minority view that they are pieces of crap and secondly read the next paragraph. I believe the best way to learn to fly fish is to obtain lessons from someone, while some colleges and clubs offer lessons, and some folks can even learn from video, the place you are going to get the most help initially is probably your local fly shop. If you must, buy your third and fourth, etc (its’ a disease I own some 30+ rods and reels)from the mail houses, but to start use a local dealer, have them give you the basic lessons in how to get started, (many schools or shops with lessons supply the equipment), try as many rods as you can once you get the basic stroke down and then decide what fits your needs and your style. You can save yourself a big headache later. I’ve been eyeing the Orvis Clearwater and the St. Crouix Pro- graphite.

About 6 years ago, St. Croix rods had a breakage problem, but they have a good following, Orvis speaks for itself. Also look at Reddington, Scott Alpha, Sage Discovery, T&T Emerger and Courtland among others. I would start with an 8 1/2′ five weight. You can fish almost any water with that size rod and fish it comfortably. – Wayne Knight Expert in creating tailing loops and windknots Otherwise Fishless in Kansas

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With all the manufacturers to choose from, I can sure use some assistance. I’ve read all kinds of interesting things about what to purchase. Here’s what I’m looking for. I fish small to medium sized streams for trout. I read that an 8′ / 6wt is a perfect first setup. I also read that if you’re over 5′8, buy 8.5′ rod and under 5′8 buy a 7.5 rod. All advise a slow to med action rod.

An 8′ 6wt??? Really? How big is "medium sized" for crying out loud? To me, small stream means there are certain sections I can jump across. Medium means I can’t jump across, but I can wade across just about anywhere. Large means, well, I have no idea what "large stream" means Regardless, unless you’re planning to fish exclusively with streamers or very-heavily-weighted nymphs, a 4wt or a 5wt would be better. In fact, based on *my* definitions of small and medium, I prefer something on the order of a 7.5′ 3wt or 4wt. –Steve

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With all the manufacturers to choose from, I can sure use some assistance. I’ve read all kinds of interesting things about what to purchase. Here’s what I’m looking for. I fish small to medium sized streams for trout. I read that an 8′ / 6wt is a perfect first setup. I also read that if you’re over 5′8, buy 8.5′ rod and under 5′8 buy a 7.5 rod. All advise a slow to med action rod. I’ve been eyeing the Orvis Clearwater and the St. Crouix Pro-graphite. I’m looking to spend around $200 for rod/reel combo. Since this is my first fly outfit, any advise on what to look at would be appreciated. Thanks.

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Question:

 I’m curious about the Cabelas Dry Plus – the article implied that the neoprene feet are too thin and will invite leaks. Has anyone had a problem with this? Sam

I have used the Cabelas Dry Plus waders for a year now and I have not had any problems. I tend to do a lot of walking when out on the stream and they have held up great. They have neoprene knee pads which is nice.  They also come with a patch kit that includes the same material that the waders are made out of. If you get a leak you just iron this material into the waders – kind of melts together on the inside. Good luck, Greg

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Thanks to everyone for the replies. I picked up the article on breathable waders in Fly Rod and Reel, and it was pretty informative. As always, there’s a tradeoff – between breathability, durability, and price. Find a match for any two of the variables and it might not match the third one. According to the article, Orvis Clearwaters sound the best for breathability/price but sacrifice puncture resistance. (But the warranty is nice.) The Hodgemans sounded like a good deal in that price range also. I’m curious about the Cabelas Dry Plus – the article implied that the neoprene feet are too thin and will invite leaks. Has anyone had a problem with this? Sam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There appears to be two typesof breathable waders; the gortex at $300 plus, and the Orvis type, now carried by many companies, at $129 to $160.  Orvis was first out with these they were mostly a dark green color.  I had a pair that worked fine until I lent them to my wife.  Then they developed  three holes in the seat.  Orvis replaced them free of charge.  LL Bean carries them and they guarantee there goods  beyond most companies. I liked them but they are too cold for float tubing, even with long underwear. JackKowalski e t… Here’s yet another equipment question: This topic has probably been covered here previously, but I’m looking for a breathable wader for hot spring/fall fishing in the Southwest. Hodgeman and Cabela’s both make a breathable wader in the $160 price range. Does anyone have any feedback they could give me about quality of these two, how well they’ve held up over time, etc? Thanks, Sam

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There is an article on breathable waders in the current issue of "Fly Rod & Reel".  They seemed to be most impressed with the Hodgman’s of the Cabela’s, Hodgman’s and Orvis. JS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – test t… Here’s yet another equipment question: This topic has probably been covered here previously, but I’m looking for a breathable wader for hot spring/fall fishing in the Southwest. Hodgeman and Cabela’s both make a breathable wader in the $160 price range. Does anyone have any feedback they could give me about quality of these two, how well they’ve held up over time, etc? Thanks, Sam

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very well made. writes: I’m wondering how well they’d hold up when float tubing. I won’t be doing a whole lot of float tubing, but I wonder whether I should get a cheap pair of neoprenes for the purpose. They hold up well. Wayne Knight Geneva IL

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1) Where can I find Orvis Clearwaters for $129? I have only seen them at the listed $165.

There is an ad in this month’s Fly Fisherman.  It seems that Orvis has had an "official" price reduction on the Clearwater Breathable.  All Orvis dealers should now be honoring this price.

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Anyone try the new Redington breatheable waders? I’ve seen them in a catalog only but they sound like a great deal. Four year unconditional warranty and $169. I’d like to see how they compare to the really expensive Simms. Thanks Michael L – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s yet another equipment question: This topic has probably been covered here previously, but I’m looking for a breathable wader for hot spring/fall fishing in the Southwest. Hodgeman and Cabela’s both make a breathable wader in the $160 price range. Does anyone have any feedback they could give me about quality of these two, how well they’ve held up over time, etc? Thanks, Sam

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I’m wondering how well they’d hold up when float tubing. I won’t be doing a whole lot of float tubing, but I wonder whether I should get a cheap pair of neoprenes for the purpose.

They hold up well. Wayne Knight Geneva IL                            

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I, too, have been considering entry level breathable waders.  In addition to the Hodgeman, Cabela’s and Orvis Clearwater, I am considering the LL Bean Streamlight Breathable Stockingfoot waders. Several comments/questions I have to Bill Kiene and others: 1) Where can I find Orvis Clearwaters for $129? I have only seen them at the listed $165.

Unicoi Outfitters in Helen, GA  had them at $129 when I was up there yesterday. — Charlie…

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There appears to be two typesof breathable waders; the gortex at $300 plus, and the Orvis type, now carried by many companies, at $129 to $160.  Orvis was first out with these they were mostly a dark green color.  I had a pair that worked fine until I lent them to my wife.  Then they developed  three holes in the seat.  Orvis replaced them free of charge.  LL Bean carries them and they guarantee there goods  beyond most companies. I liked them but they are too cold for float tubing, even with long underwear. JackKowalski

t… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Here’s yet another equipment question: This topic has probably been covered here previously, but I’m looking for a breathable wader for hot spring/fall fishing in the Southwest. Hodgeman and Cabela’s both make a breathable wader in the $160 price range. Does anyone have any feedback they could give me about quality of these two, how well they’ve held up over time, etc? Thanks, Sam

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test t… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s yet another equipment question: This topic has probably been covered here previously, but I’m looking for a breathable wader for hot spring/fall fishing in the Southwest. Hodgeman and Cabela’s both make a breathable wader in the $160 price range. Does anyone have any feedback they could give me about quality of these two, how well they’ve held up over time, etc? Thanks, Sam

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I am excited that breathables will be coming down in price, but our top selling

Jeez Bill, at $349.00 those Simms Guide Models had better guide me to some VERY nice holes! 8^} — To reply, please remove "hormel" from my address.  Diapers and politicians should be changed regularly,  often for the same reason.

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I, too, have been considering entry level breathable waders.  In addition to the Hodgeman, Cabela’s and Orvis Clearwater, I am considering the LL Bean Streamlight Breathable Stockingfoot waders. Several comments/questions I have to Bill Kiene and others: 1) Where can I find Orvis Clearwaters for $129? I have only seen them at the listed $165. 2) I like the Orvis and LL Bean models because they come in both men’s and women’s cuts/sizes.  When I buy, I plan to get two pair; one for myself and one for my wife. 3) I am concerned about the lack of knee protection (for we clumsy) on the Clearwater and Hodgeman waders.  Orvis, of course, has the excellent warranty.  But both the Cabela’s and the Streamlight waders have reinforced knees and LL Bean’s warranty is even better. I am only trying to get more information to make a decision.  Any and all comments would be appreciated. Jonathan Williamson

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I am excited that breathables will be coming down in price, but our top selling Jeez Bill, at $349.00 those Simms Guide Models had better guide me to some VERY nice holes! 8^}

I’m planning to buy a pair of Simms. (Fortunately, I can get them wholesale). I’m wondering how well they’d hold up when float tubing. I won’t be doing a whole lot of float tubing, but I wonder whether I should get a cheap pair of neoprenes for the purpose. — something bogus to avoid spam)

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Here’s yet another equipment question: This topic has probably been covered here previously, but I’m looking for a breathable wader for hot spring/fall fishing in the Southwest. Hodgeman and Cabela’s both make a breathable wader in the $160 price range. Does anyone have any feedback they could give me about quality of these two, how well they’ve held up over time, etc? Thanks, Sam

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Here’s yet another equipment question: This topic has probably been covered here previously, but I’m looking for a breathable wader for hot spring/fall fishing in the Southwest. Hodgeman and Cabela’s both make a breathable wader in the $160 price range. Does anyone have any feedback they could give me about quality of these two, how well they’ve held up over time, etc? Thanks, Sam

Hi Sam, I am sure that Hodgeman and Cabela’s both make good waders and stand behind them, but Orvis has the hottest deal on entry level breathables( anything under $200) Their Clearwater stocking foot breathable chest waders come with a neoprene foot and suspenders for $129. They also have a prorated 4 year warranty. I am excited that breathables will be coming down in price, but our top selling Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

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Question:

James

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Can anyone tell me where I can find salmon fly patterns on the net. I am looking for patterns from Iceland. I have tried two patterns and the colour in them is great, have had great luck with the patterns and would like to get more. Thank you.

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Can anyone tell me where I can find salmon fly patterns on the net. I am looking for patterns from Iceland. I have tried two patterns and the colour in them is great, have had great luck with the patterns and would like to get more. Thank you.

Just curious.  Do you fish these patterns the Icelandic way with the 14′ long rods?  If so, what do you think of that particular style of fishing? Mike

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Question:

I’m looking for info on a fly-fishing school for women.  My girlfriend wants to get  into the sport, but would feel more comfortable learning with and from other women.  Does anyone know of such a school in New England?

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Orvis runs separate schools for women (and also mixed). LL bean also has classes. Both are in New England. Also check with individual shops – many are now starting to offer classes for women. Ann

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Orvis runs separate schools for women (and also mixed). LL bean also has classes. Both are in New England. Also check with individual shops – many are now starting to offer classes for women. Ann

Also, Lori Ann Miller runs schools out west. Used to be out of Jackson, but now I think she is headquartered out of Idaho. She can be reached through the Orvis shop in Jackson, and her name and number are also in the Orvis Catalogue. She runs an outfit called "Reel Women." Christy Ball was in this business with her, but I don’t know if she still is. I am sure Christy still does the same thing, and probably can be reached through the same Orvis store in Jackson. I understand they are exceptional. Kevin Williams

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In Northern California, Clearwater House presents their "Mastering the Art of Fly Fishing" for women only.  I’ve taken a number of classes there, know the staff, and can’t recommend them any higher. If you’re interested, check out <http://www.ecenter.net/clearwater/, or you can call, 415.381.1173. Kim — —– Kim St. John Woodward         |   "When the ship lifts, all bills are paid. St. John Software             |    No regrets." http://www.EveningRise.com

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Hi-    I teach women-only classes to those who want them. Our school is in the town of Truckee about 20 minutes north of Lake Tahoe. We’re booked into October of this year but do keep an on-deck list to cover cancellations.    -Tight lines, Lisa —

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208 787 2657 Fax 208 787 2691 Gary Baja on the Fly

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Hi,   Great Basin College in Elko, Nevada will be running a lady’s school on July 26 and 27. For mor info, contact Pat Warren at (702) 753-2231 Jim, Nevada Jim’s Outdoor Sports, Elko, NV

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Question:

I’ll be turkey hunting in the florida area next week and was wondering if anyone has any experiance fishing the cold upstream of rte 2. Ive never fished it but seen it deep in the woods and it looks tasty but I never threw a fly there. Any info would be great!! P.S. I dont mind walking

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: I’ll be turkey hunting in the florida area next week and was wondering if : anyone has any experiance fishing the cold upstream of rte 2. Ive never : fished it but seen it deep in the woods and it looks tasty but I never : threw a fly there. : Any info would be great!! : P.S. I dont mind walking The Deerfield River guidebook describes it as a highly variable flowing stream with a small population of wild brookies.  I know the state stocks it, but I’m not sure with what, and there’s always the chance that big fish from that nice pool on the deerfield that the cold empties into could have come upstream.  I don’t know if the state stocks this river anywhere upstream of the last route 2 bridge.  They may, but I’m sure most of the fishing pressure is on the lower stretches.

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        I am interested in starting up my own guide service to those people in Japan who enjoy fly fishing.  I have been fly fishing for several years all over Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana.  I also speak Japanese fluently.  I am just looking to see if there is an interest among the Japanese in fly fishing.  I am close to graduation and the idea of being stuck in an office is horrifying.  If I can combine my language skills with something I love to do- fly fishing- I would be very happy.         If anyone can give me some advice on the best way to do some advertising I would greatly appreciate it.  If you are Japanese and can give me some feedback please e-mail me. (Eigo ka Nihongo…dochidemo ii desu)         Thanks for your help.

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I work for Japanese company and next to golf the Japaneses are getting into fly fishing in big way.  You idea sounds interesting and I have the same sentiments, however I have been working in Japan and Seattle for away.  Let me know your plans in more detail. Wayne

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Question:

                                                                    The thing that got me was that i read Lyman Hugh’s response, when he stated that he was always disappointed to see them on the end of the line.  My question is, if the fish fight well (which they really do), and if they aren’t too ugly (which, in my book, they’re not), then why the disappointmentR?

A)…..white fish can’t jump! B)…..they fight hard for few moments, and then poop out, perhaps        because their mouths are so small, so they run out of oxygen        faster. C)…..they’re good smoked, a delicacy, in fact. Because of their        oily flesh, they take the smoke better. (But they’re hard to        keep lit). —

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I’m pretty sure you are now talking about 2 different species of fish. The whitefish in Montana looks a lot like a grayling/sucker, relatively long and thin.  The Great Lakes whitefish, a delicacy, is a chunky, somewhat oily fish that is a high-priced restaurant meal, commercially netted.  I have caught them in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area, rising at dusk to the white may flies that come in August.  They are usually broiled with paprika, andthe fillets are delicious. Whitefish are sought after up here in Ontario. You guys don’t know what

you’re missing. They fillet great and are also stuffed/baked. They must be good ifthey are sold commeircially here but I get mine thru the ice on Simcoe andwould rank them behind crappie and walleye in terms of tastiness They – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -will also hit minnows and jigs. — Richard Park    

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Well, I ditched work for the afternoon yesterday and ventured out upon the local waters and managed to catch my first brown trout (2 of ‘em, actually — I’m a novice ffisherman).  I also caught a mountain whitefish.  I’ve caught a couple of whitefish now.  The fishing proclamation calls them gamefish here in Utah, but to my knowledge, most fishermen treat them as trash fish.

Jay, I’ve caught mountain whitefish and a couple of species of lake w’fish. They taste just fine. Despite the scales, they’re salmonids (as are grayling). The mountain species lives in substantially the same waters as trout, eats almost the same stuff, and fights quite respectably. Unfortunately, there is a perception on some waters that fish fall into one of two categories (trout & trash). Sad — 3798 Woodland Drive     voice: (604) 368-9315 Trail, BC               data:  (604) 368-9341

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inhis posting on whitefish, Jay stated The fishing proclamation calls them gamefish here in Utah, but to my knowledge, most fishermen treat them as trash fish. Does anyone know if whitefish are edible?  (Well, of *course* they’re edible, but does anybody purposely fish for them and take them home for supper?)

     Whitefish are excellent eating, and they are truly wonderful smoked, which is easy to do. There is a good article and recipe in the latest issue of Big Sky Journal. Whitefish are best eaten when caught in the colder weather months, i.e. November through April.       In addition, whitefish provide some pretty good sport to any Ffisher with an open mind. They take dry flies, love nymphs, and fight respectably. They are NOT a trash fish. The term Trash Fish usually conjures up images of fish species that take over sections of river that become either too warm or too polluted to sustain hte more desireable game fish.  Also, trash fish are often accused, either rightly or wrongly,  of having a negative impact on trout or other gamefish populations, which is certainly not the case with Whitefish.      Whitefish, require the same pristine river conditions that trout do. Chances are that a river that can no longer sustain breeding trout populations can’t sustain whitefish either. They too are an indicator species for water quality. Finally they are a member of the overall family of which trout are also members, like second or third cousins, so they cant be all bad!  I wish trout fishermen who catch them would stop throwing them on the banks to die needlessly, and either return them to the rivers or take them home and make use out of them Dale Owens

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Well, Me and my girlfriend caught a couple on accident while fishing for crappie.  We took it home, and filleted them.  We froze them and then took them out of the freezer to thaw.  The thawed for a while (we went somewhere that weekend), and when we came back, they were ruined.  They filleted real nicely and had a lot of boneless meat to them, so They would not be a problem to try them and see if they are any good.  I hear they are good smoked.  We hear about them all the time in our hunting and fishing news, they are active about the same time the other fishes are spawning (they eat eggs).  People catch them on whitefish flies (what are whitefish flies), and also with a maggot on the fly.  This did not answer the question, but had to say my piece.

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Whitefish are sought after up here in Ontario. You guys don’t know what you’re missing. They fillet great and are also stuffed/baked. They must be good if they are sold commeircially here but I get mine thru the ice on Simcoe and would rank them behind crappie and walleye in terms of tastiness They will also hit minnows and jigs. — Richard Park    

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.. would not be a problem to try them and see if they are any good.  I hear they are good smoked. …

I really like them smoked (although a lot of bones, but I don’t mind) … Peter

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Jay  Clibern writes:

"The fishing proclamation calls them gamefish here in Utah, but to my knowledge, most fishermen treat them as trash fish. Does anyone know if whitefish are edible?  (Well, of *course* they’re edible, but does anybody purposely fish for them and take them home for supper?)" Jay – As ugly as they are, they are edible – smoked is the only way that I know of.  I can’t say I am a big fan, but lots of folks like them.  If you fish around Ennis, MT on the Madison, you can take 4 or 5 (or fewer) whitefish into the Resvedts Meat market, give them a fish and a dollar for each fish, and they will give you an already smoked whitefish. A big surprise to me is the fact that the whitefish is part of the trout family.  Hard to believe.  I don’t like whitefish (could you tell?), and to me nothing is as frustration as thinking you ahve a big trout on the line only to see that slimey rubber lipped head appear.  But that’s ony one man’s opinion. Lyman Hughes Ennis, MT Dallas, TX                                               Dallas, TX                                               Ennis, MT

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The round whitefish is another Great Lakes species. Locally they are called "Menominee." I catch them off Michigan piers in October to freeze up. In 1994 I fished as late as after Christmas. They bite on a single poached salmon egg on the bottom. They are timid biters and the real trick is to know when they are after the bait. My family considers them delicious. Incidently, nobody fishes for them on the Wisconsin side of the lake. Wisconsin comercial fishermen net them but I’ve never seen anyone fishing for them in the Michigan manner.

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you are correct about the Lake witefishes.  But the mountain whitefish of the Rockies and the Truckee drainage in California/Nevada ( The answer to a trivia question about distribution of Western Salomids before coming of the european )  are a completely different case then the  whitefish of the Great Lakes.        The Mountain Whitefish, otherwise Known as Salmo ( as they are a salmonid )  Carpi, have been extending their range.  It seams that with all the "progress"  and the wonderful benefit that strip mining brings to the landscape and the stream.  That the Mountain Whitefish is able to withstand the rapid changes in its environment, better then the trout.

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I think that all the answers to the original note follow pretty much what I have read and heard about Whitefish.  I have just one other thought.  I am a catch-and-releaser, mainly because I really don’t like trout that much.  But that’s another story.  I have caught a zillion whitefish in Montana and Wyoming and I can truly say that in most cases I didn’t know they were whitefish until I got them up close in the stream.  That says that they gave me the fight I was looking for and if you don’t keep the fish, what difference does it make if it isn’t a trout but gives you pleasure in catching it?  I’ll have to admit I’m always a little disappointed when I see it’s not a trout since I came to catch trout.  But – accept the fun of the catch and the fight and enjoy the experience. John B. in Mpls..

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Re: white fish-Not to rehash other wf remarks, but … they do fight well and taste great! Have caught them in Madison fried them for breakfast and grilled them. Meat is white and chunky. I caught 16 last year on dry files in about 30 minutes. Way to tell if guy down stream has a wf, the rod tip will jiggle up and down and trout have more steady bend. I got ‘em, turned away from crowd to release them, still in water and everyone thought I was catching trout!!! Was fun.

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