Question:

Wolfgang writes:  Evidently, there is more than one way to tie a "surgeon’s" knot.

and yours is better, my man. Had real pretty knots fishing on Thursday. You should be proud!                    your grateful Clavemeister

Response:

By now, the second annual Penn’s creek clave is mostly history and well chronicled at that.  However, there remain a few items worthy of note. Snapshot:  Half a dozen or so guys stand on a bridge, munching hot dogs thoughtfully provided and cooked by Mike Shaw, and watching one of their brothers kneeling on the bank, casting repeatedly to a sporadically rising fish.  Many suggestions about where to put the fly are offered, as well as commentary on casting technique.  No one says anything but one thought looms in all minds……lean forward just a bit more, Frank….just a wee bit more!      :)

and you didn’t push – you’re all slipping. I sat on the bank of Pine creek next to Tom Littleton one evening while waiting for a hatch to come off and watched him make a couple of desultory casts to pass the time.  After a few moments I politely inquired, "What the fuck did you do to that leader?"  Evidently, there is more than one way to tie a "surgeon’s" knot. I want to talk to the Pennsylvania Guy Who Names Things.  A "creek" might be adequate to render a Suburban invisible but should not be large enough to hide a suburb in. Ya’ll got too many Pine creeks!

So they ran outta names – not an erudite lot, eh? Had this event been held the third week in June, with it’s longer days, me and Asadi might have had just about enough daylight to discover New York and plant the ROFFian flag, thus claiming it as our own for all time…..maybe next year.

Can we give it back after? (hate to be stuck with a noow yawk) I caught a brookie on an orange caddis provided by George Cleveland.  I win!  Thanks, George. Snapshot:  Wayno wears running bras.  Boy needs a lesson in anatomy, though.  Nuff said.

He’s had too many lessons, that’s the problem. The typical coloration of a whitetail deer faun provides excellent camouflage and it’s practice of sitting motionless is a time tested survival strategy……in its native habitat…..sucks on a gray gravel road though.  Photos available soon.

any blood splats? For those who have not yet heard:  I misplaced my Gerber (not to be confused with gerbil) multitool….one of those collapsible combination pliers, bottle opener, knife, etc., etc., thingies.  If it turns up anywhere, I will consider any reasonable ransom demand.

sorry, no gerbil here – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I fished my new fly rod for the first time….seven and a half foot, three weight, built on a St. Croix Legend Ultra blank by our own Joel Axelrad…..sweet, VERY sweet!  Thank you Joel (who will not see this for some time as he is presumably somewhere in Minnesota, en route to the Prairie Pike Clave). Everybody who attends a ROFFian clave brings (and/or purchases on site) more beer and/or distilled spirits than he himself consumes.  This is the best evidence to date of some sort of cross dimensional transport. Hail does NOT improve the fishing! Pennsylvania blackflies suck just like our version up here in the Great Lakes region.    :( Don’t bother fishing Lyman lake.   No fish.  Not all that surprising, come to think of it….. no water. Frog’s Fanny works. Having just completed the calculations, I am pleased to announce that Frank Reid’s fly box has a surface area of about 3.63 acres. Just prior to my departure for home yesterday, I returned to Mike Makela the bulk of the half cord of toilet paper with which he supplied the clavesters…..evidently we all went home as full of shit as when we arrived.

from what I heard, a lot got shot as well However they may state it, most ROFFians believe that their chosen avocation is a means of getting closer to God, or some such metaphysical rumination.  I got real close the other day.  He yelled at me….said, "GET THE HELL OUT OF MY CREEK!", or something to that effect.  I listened……FAST!      :(

wazzat you? I enjoyed the week immensely.  It was great to catch up with friends and make new ones.  Shit, even Willi isn’t near as mean in person as he looks on ROFF! Wolfgang and pj really IS a sweetheart!

Louie has a real dumbfuck picture of you.  better pay him off real quick. Cheers Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Wolfgang writes:  Evidently, there is more than one way to tie a "surgeon’s" knot. and yours is better, my man. Had real pretty knots fishing on Thursday. You should be proud!                    your grateful Clavemeister

Delighted to be of service!  It DOES sort of highlight the difficulties inherent in this medium though, don’t it?       Wolfgang o.k., so, would someone please explai……ah shit, never mind.    

Response:

Great report, Wolfie. I look forward to my first opportunity to attend a clave. -Jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – By now, the second annual Penn’s creek clave is mostly history and well chronicled at that.  However, there remain a few items worthy of note. Snapshot:  Half a dozen or so guys stand on a bridge, munching hot dogs thoughtfully provided and cooked by Mike Shaw, and watching one of their brothers kneeling on the bank, casting repeatedly to a sporadically rising fish.  Many suggestions about where to put the fly are offered, as well as commentary on casting technique.  No one says anything but one thought looms in all minds……lean forward just a bit more, Frank….just a wee bit more!      :) I sat on the bank of Pine creek next to Tom Littleton one evening while waiting for a hatch to come off and watched him make a couple of desultory casts to pass the time.  After a few moments I politely inquired, "What the fuck did you do to that leader?"  Evidently, there is more than one way to tie a "surgeon’s" knot. I want to talk to the Pennsylvania Guy Who Names Things.  A "creek" might be adequate to render a Suburban invisible but should not be large enough to hide a suburb in. Ya’ll got too many Pine creeks! Had this event been held the third week in June, with it’s longer days, me and Asadi might have had just about enough daylight to discover New York and plant the ROFFian flag, thus claiming it as our own for all time…..maybe next year. I caught a brookie on an orange caddis provided by George Cleveland.  I win!  Thanks, George. Snapshot:  Wayno wears running bras.  Boy needs a lesson in anatomy, though.  Nuff said. The typical coloration of a whitetail deer faun provides excellent camouflage and it’s practice of sitting motionless is a time tested survival strategy……in its native habitat…..sucks on a gray gravel road though.  Photos available soon. For those who have not yet heard:  I misplaced my Gerber (not to be confused with gerbil) multitool….one of those collapsible combination pliers, bottle opener, knife, etc., etc., thingies.  If it turns up anywhere, I will consider any reasonable ransom demand. I fished my new fly rod for the first time….seven and a half foot, three weight, built on a St. Croix Legend Ultra blank by our own Joel Axelrad…..sweet, VERY sweet!  Thank you Joel (who will not see this for some time as he is presumably somewhere in Minnesota, en route to the Prairie Pike Clave). Everybody who attends a ROFFian clave brings (and/or purchases on site) more beer and/or distilled spirits than he himself consumes.  This is the best evidence to date of some sort of cross dimensional transport. Hail does NOT improve the fishing! Pennsylvania blackflies suck just like our version up here in the Great Lakes region.    :( Don’t bother fishing Lyman lake.   No fish.  Not all that surprising, come to think of it….. no water. Frog’s Fanny works. Having just completed the calculations, I am pleased to announce that Frank Reid’s fly box has a surface area of about 3.63 acres. Just prior to my departure for home yesterday, I returned to Mike Makela the bulk of the half cord of toilet paper with which he supplied the clavesters…..evidently we all went home as full of shit as when we arrived. However they may state it, most ROFFians believe that their chosen avocation is a means of getting closer to God, or some such metaphysical rumination.  I got real close the other day.  He yelled at me….said, "GET THE HELL OUT OF MY CREEK!", or something to that effect.  I listened……FAST!      :( I enjoyed the week immensely.  It was great to catch up with friends and make new ones.  Shit, even Willi isn’t near as mean in person as he looks on ROFF! Wolfgang and pj really IS a sweetheart!

Response:

By now, the second annual Penn’s creek clave is mostly history and well chronicled at that.  However, there remain a few items worthy of note. Snapshot:  Half a dozen or so guys stand on a bridge, munching hot dogs thoughtfully provided and cooked by Mike Shaw, and watching one of their brothers kneeling on the bank, casting repeatedly to a sporadically rising fish.  Many suggestions about where to put the fly are offered, as well as commentary on casting technique.  No one says anything but one thought looms in all minds……lean forward just a bit more, Frank….just a wee bit more!      :) I sat on the bank of Pine creek next to Tom Littleton one evening while waiting for a hatch to come off and watched him make a couple of desultory casts to pass the time.  After a few moments I politely inquired, "What the fuck did you do to that leader?"  Evidently, there is more than one way to tie a "surgeon’s" knot. I want to talk to the Pennsylvania Guy Who Names Things.  A "creek" might be adequate to render a Suburban invisible but should not be large enough to hide a suburb in. Ya’ll got too many Pine creeks! Had this event been held the third week in June, with it’s longer days, me and Asadi might have had just about enough daylight to discover New York and plant the ROFFian flag, thus claiming it as our own for all time…..maybe next year. I caught a brookie on an orange caddis provided by George Cleveland.  I win!  Thanks, George. Snapshot:  Wayno wears running bras.  Boy needs a lesson in anatomy, though.  Nuff said. The typical coloration of a whitetail deer faun provides excellent camouflage and it’s practice of sitting motionless is a time tested survival strategy……in its native habitat…..sucks on a gray gravel road though.  Photos available soon. For those who have not yet heard:  I misplaced my Gerber (not to be confused with gerbil) multitool….one of those collapsible combination pliers, bottle opener, knife, etc., etc., thingies.  If it turns up anywhere, I will consider any reasonable ransom demand. I fished my new fly rod for the first time….seven and a half foot, three weight, built on a St. Croix Legend Ultra blank by our own Joel Axelrad…..sweet, VERY sweet!  Thank you Joel (who will not see this for some time as he is presumably somewhere in Minnesota, en route to the Prairie Pike Clave). Everybody who attends a ROFFian clave brings (and/or purchases on site) more beer and/or distilled spirits than he himself consumes.  This is the best evidence to date of some sort of cross dimensional transport. Hail does NOT improve the fishing! Pennsylvania blackflies suck just like our version up here in the Great Lakes region.    :( Don’t bother fishing Lyman lake.   No fish.  Not all that surprising, come to think of it….. no water. Frog’s Fanny works. Having just completed the calculations, I am pleased to announce that Frank Reid’s fly box has a surface area of about 3.63 acres. Just prior to my departure for home yesterday, I returned to Mike Makela the bulk of the half cord of toilet paper with which he supplied the clavesters…..evidently we all went home as full of shit as when we arrived. However they may state it, most ROFFians believe that their chosen avocation is a means of getting closer to God, or some such metaphysical rumination.  I got real close the other day.  He yelled at me….said, "GET THE HELL OUT OF MY CREEK!", or something to that effect.  I listened……FAST!      :( I enjoyed the week immensely.  It was great to catch up with friends and make new ones.  Shit, even Willi isn’t near as mean in person as he looks on ROFF! Wolfgang and pj really IS a sweetheart!

Response:

Question:

But, Roy, none of the planes I fly starts with a 7.  :-)

I fly a 7AC, but not in IMC.

Response:

Many responses to your question have been good and logical, but don’t consider the confusion and disorientation that can come with suddenly seeing indications on the instruments that don’t make sense or don’t agree with what you expected.

I was hoping you’d pipe in here.  It was my confusion in a holding pattern up there with you that got me searching for some way to call time out–or the closest thing I can get to that.  That’s probably why you were able to address the question so poignantly despite me not knowing how to ask it. Anyway, thanks.  You da man. — Jim

Response:

7ECA…. Yours is cooler though (Champ, right?) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But, Roy, none of the planes I fly starts with a 7.  :-) I fly a 7AC, but not in IMC.

Response:

Makes sense to me – but best laid plans are sometimes difficult to follow in the soup. Flying the missed assumes situational awareness.Yes, I could have done my best guess as per the DG – but that would have meant a lot more figuring things out. Seemed prudent to talk to ATC and get back on track. Having said that, the missed was close to coming into play, so your scenario would have been the next step.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Again, I am relatively new to IFR, but I am confused why this would be a problem. Even if all your radios and navs spin around and spit pea soup, you have a heading, and even having the DG go out leaves you with compass heading. If things go seriously wrong, I would hopefully remember the heading, stop the drop if on approach, and go missed if required. It seems to me the neat thing about a missed is you can do that with a heading only if required. I was never lost, but I was once confused in that my two CDI’s gave different info on the same approach. I called for ATC, explained the situation, got vectors and finally figured out which CDI was messed up. (Turned out to be interference between avionics equipment) I have to admit it was disconcerting to be IMC and get two completely different indications from the CDIs on an ILS, but ATC was very helpful. — True knowledge is what you learn after you know everything.

Response:

You probably won’t need to ask.  If you’re operating in a radar environment, your first indication that there’s a significant difference between where you’re heading and where you should be heading will likely be a query from the controller.

I can attest to that.  When I had my DG failure in IMC, the first hint I had that anything was wrong was a "say heading?" query from NY Approach. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA

Response:

Lost?  On instruments?  Never happened to me.  But, you twirl the knobs on the VORs and get unlost.

Tell that to the crew that flew a 757 into the mountains near Cali, Columbia.  Tell that to the crew of the flight that wandered into Soviet airspace by accident and got shot down.  Tell that to the crew that flew a perfectly good 747 into the ground in Guam. Never think it can’t happen to you. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA

Response:

Good point, and a good reminder. -Ryan Lost?  On instruments?  Never happened to me.  But, you twirl the knobs on the VORs and get unlost. Tell that to the crew that flew a 757 into the mountains near Cali, Columbia.  Tell that to the crew of the flight that wandered into Soviet airspace by accident and got shot down.  Tell that to the crew that flew a perfectly good 747 into the ground in Guam. Never think it can’t happen to you. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA

– Ryan Ferguson Pitts S-2C N312PS Twin Comanche 8259Y My flying pictures are at: http://www.fergworld.com

Response:

Lost?  On instruments?  Never happened to me.  But, you twirl the knobs on the VORs and get unlost. Tell that to the crew that flew a 757 into the mountains near Cali, Columbia.  Tell that to the crew of the flight that wandered into Soviet airspace by accident and got shot down.  Tell that to the crew that flew a perfectly good 747 into the ground in Guam. Never think it can’t happen to you.

But, Roy, none of the planes I fly starts with a 7.  :-) Matt

Response:

On the other hand, if I was at 2,000 in the L.A. basin and lost and had any doubt about the terrain, I would climb like hell while asking for help from the controller.  Better to bust a clearance than wind up flying into a mountain. The probably with this is then you might eat an airliner.

Given a choice between a possible CFIT and a possible mid-air, I’ll risk the mid-air any day.  Not only are the mountains bigger targets than the airliners, they also don’t have TCAS. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA

Response:

<snip of exactly the type of stuff I was looking for but wasn’t sure exactly how to ask–You, too, Ron Non-Critical emergency: An emergency such that no matter what action you

take, you will die. Snicker.  Filed in mental "quotable quotes" folder. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

As the other posters have pointed out, the ‘where’, ‘when’, and ‘how’ of lost is a big factor.   Assuming you have at least a NAV/AID available this simply shouldn’t happen at least in the big picture.   If you don’t have it sorted out soon (especially if you are on ‘own nav’) you better ask on the radio! Here’s something I used to do to sharpen my ‘where the hell am I’ skills… I would call up a regional map on my IFR sim (IFT Pro was great for this). Close my eyes and click the mouse to position my A/C on some unforseen random location and then start up the sim, plane in the air, IMC.  Since I new generally where I was (within a 100 miles) I’d start dialing up the VOR’s trying to fix my position.  Of course this is child’s play with a VOR/DME but get’s more challenging if you resign yourself to just the ADF or just the DME.  One of my instructors was so good about teaching VOR/CDI tricks (will this heading intercept the 245 radial?  How close to the station are you?) that getting lost with a working NAV/AID just doesn’t seem likely to me anymore.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Most of these issues rely on the principle that if you are headed accurately from a know position, then suddenly switching to a much less accurate form of navigation will result in a badly off position only given a lot of time. Ie., you know your heading, should have a good idea when your next fix eta is, you aren’t going to be far off even if murphy suddenly sticks you back into a dark cockpit with only a flashlight aimed at the compass and your watch. No matter what the situation, radio working or not, is to perform what you were cleared to do. Thats what you last knew, thats what they expect. Circling, doing something odd, whatever, its just going to make the situation worse, IMHO. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course.  But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

– True knowledge is what you learn after you know everything.

Response:

I was never lost, but I was once confused in that my two CDI’s gave different info on the same approach. I called for ATC, explained the situation, got vectors and finally figured out which CDI was messed up. (Turned out to be interference between avionics equipment) I have to admit it was disconcerting to be IMC and get two completely different indications from the CDIs on an ILS, but ATC was very helpful.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Lost?  On instruments?  Never happened to me.  But, you twirl the knobs on the VORs and get unlost.  The needles are pretty hard to misinterpret.  If you lose electrical you get on your handheld and start talking to ATC. Ryan http://www.fergworld.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course.  But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

If I would unsure I would just ask.  It’s that ten second position check. "Center, Cessna 1234, verify that you who me 10 miles from Podunk VOR on the 120 radial." jerry

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Whoops, should be you SHOW me 10 miles….

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If I would unsure I would just ask.  It’s that ten second position check. "Center, Cessna 1234, verify that you who me 10 miles from Podunk VOR on the 120 radial." jerry Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over?

ATC would probably not appreciate an unannounced circle and ascent. And, obviously, pulling over isn’t an option.  I’m guessing this is a troll question, but I’ll give it a serious answer anyway. I’ve never had this happen, but it if did, I’d immediately confess to ATC that I’d lost situational awareness and ask them where I was! Matt

Response:

What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?

You probably won’t need to ask.  If you’re operating in a radar environment, your first indication that there’s a significant difference between where you’re heading and where you should be heading will likely be a query from the controller. Immediately circle and ascend?

I suppose it depends where you are.  If you’re in Alaska and in uncontrolled airspace climbing probably won’t make your situation any worse.  In controlled airspace over Iowa it’s a different story. Call "time out" and pull over?

Are you flying a helicopter?  Beware of the traffic behind you.

Response:

On the other hand, if I was at 2,000 in the L.A. basin and lost and had any doubt about the terrain, I would climb like hell while asking for help from the controller.  Better to bust a clearance than wind up flying into a mountain.

The probably with this is then you might eat an airliner. Bottom line is life is not good if you loss situational awareness. The penalty for not paying attention while flying in IMC can be death.  Serious stuff.

Response:

Again, I am relatively new to IFR, but I am confused why this would be a problem. Even if all your radios and navs spin around and spit pea soup, you have a heading, and even having the DG go out leaves you with compass heading. If things go seriously wrong, I would hopefully remember the heading, stop the drop if on approach, and go missed if required. It seems to me the neat thing about a missed is you can do that with a heading only if required. I was never lost, but I was once confused in that my two CDI’s gave different info on the same approach. I called for ATC, explained the situation, got vectors and finally figured out which CDI was messed up. (Turned out to be interference between avionics equipment) I have to admit it was disconcerting to be IMC and get two completely different indications from the CDIs on an ILS, but ATC was very helpful.

– True knowledge is what you learn after you know everything.

Response:

Well, there are always those time/distance exercises you had to learn: go wandering off the airway while you’re lost so you can figure out how far it is to the next checkpoint. Personally, if I had a radio aid to use for that I would just fly to the radio aid and not give a dead rat how far away it is. Basically, lost in IMC is done the same way as lost in VMC: figure out your last know position, check your heading and time from there to approximate your current position, check it against radio aids. Maintain last assigned altitude and heading. Call for radar vectors. Climbing in circles is likely to induce vestibular problems, so don’t do that. If you’ve lost your electrics, backup radios and handheld GPS can be of some help. Again, check your last known position, use your heading and time to approximate where you are now. Check that against MEAs/MORAs. Climb in a straight line, if necessary, and follow IFR lost comm procedures. If you really haven’t got a clue and no help is available, consider other options. If you know you are near a coastline, for example, consider flying out over the ocean and gingerly descending until you can see the water, turn around and fly back to the coast. Use a deliberate offset so that you know you are coming in south, for example, of a known point on the coastline, then follow the coastline up to that point. If you are in a single engine plane in mountainous terrain, IMC at night, lost, and low on fuel, you have what is called a non-critical emergency. Critical emergency: An emergency such that if prompt action is not taken, you will die. Non-Critical emergency: An emergency such that no matter what action you take, you will die.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up!

Consider two kinds of lost.  One is being unable to accurately locate your position due to complete electrical failure or some such.  For that kind of case, I carry a handheld GPS in my flight bag (with spare batteries), and I turn it on every week or so for 30 minutes or so to let it update its almanac.  The unit is always kept where I can reach it and retrieve it without looking.  I also carry a handheld radio.  With this, I can find my lat/long quickly and can then dead reckon toward a letdown point, using the GPS occasionally to refine my navigation.  I have practiced this. The other kind of lost is a temporary loss of positional awareness during a busy instrument approach or even a hold.  Many responses to your question have been good and logical, but don’t consider the confusion and disorientation that can come with suddenly seeing indications on the instruments that don’t make sense or don’t agree with what you expected. This can lead to panic.  In some terrain you just can’t keep flying while you try to figure it out or wait for ATC to call you and ask what the hell is going on, you need to do something fast.  I have been developing the habit of defining my "lost" procedure before entering an approach.  It consists of a heading and an altitude, and I jot it down on my kneeboard and draw a square around it.  The heading is the final aproach course and the altitude is the MSA.  If I get "lost", meaning I have lost positional awareness of exactly where I am relative to the procedure and am confused, my default procedure is to climb like hell and turn to the FAC.  Then I can call ATC and ask for vectors for the missed if I’m still lost.  Not a perfect solution nor a universal one, but it is something, and seems to me to be better than doing nothing and flying into a mountain. This kind of "lost" results from a breakdown or interruption of the mental processes required to execute a procedure while keeping the "picture" in your mind.  If you suddenly "lose the picture", especially while in a maneuver, the resulting disorientation and confusion negates recovery procedures based on application of logical thought processes.  If you can stabilize your situation, such as by just flying a heading, the ability to think logically can return quickly, and then you can puzzle out the problem, but you don’t always have time to do that.  I have heard that this mental lapse of "losing the picture" happens to controllers also. I got "lost" in a hold once in IMC.  I was flying a MAHP with GPS, there was a hefty wind, I got a little off track flying inbound to the holding fix, and somehow misjudged when to start my turn.  When I rolled out of the turn, I couldn’t immediately make any sense of the indications and got confused. I was "lost" in the sense of not knowing where I was relative to the fix. Not good.  In a hold, my default is to fly the outbound heading. I think Jim’s question, which is similar to one posted by Mike Horowitz a while back, is a good one.  Especially for inexperienced instrument pilots, or insufficiently proficient ones, there will be times, however infrequent, when confusion sets in, and it is worthwhile to think through these things and try to come up with no-brain default actions that, while not perfect, are likely to be better than doing nothing. I’m sure some people are so cool and competent that they never get lost or never get confused or panicked when something goes wrong, and I envy them. I have been lost in IMC, in the second sense and on an approach, and it is about the scariest thing I could imagine.  When that happened, I realized that I had to have some simple no-brain procedure to do something if I temporarily lost my thinking power due to confusion.  Otherwise, I would do nothing for a while, perhaps too long. Stan Prevost

Response:

Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over?

I’ve never been lost in IMC, but if I were, it would depend where I was flying.  If I was over Iowa at 5,000 I would tell the controller I was lost and get some help.  On the other hand, if I was at 2,000 in the L.A. basin and lost and had any doubt about the terrain, I would climb like hell while asking for help from the controller.  Better to bust a clearance than wind up flying into a mountain. BTW, how lost is "lost"?  A mile off course?  A hundred miles?  You’re never totally lost, I mean, you know what state your in, right?  :) So you’ll have some basic info about the terrain.   If you get lost while having a total electrical failure you’re on your own, so you better not be lost.  If you are, then use your head and think about the weather and terrain.  Where is the VMC?  Where is the low terrain?  Around here, the lowest terrain is over the ocean.  If I had to get down and had no nav or com capability and widespread low IMC that I couldn’t climb on top of, I’d fly out over the ocean and descend until I was below the clouds, then scud run my way back to the coast.   Of course, with a handheld nav/com, a handheld GPS, extra batteries, etc. I doubt it would ever come to that.  A lot of things would have to break at the same time that the weather was at its absolute worst and I’d have to get lost on top of it all. There are a lot of little failure modes that they don’t necessarily teach you about when you’re training for the instrument rating.  But you learn enough to be able to use your head and make educated decisions when fate (or your own idiocy) throws you a curveball. –Ron

Response:

Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course.  But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

So long as my  navigation equipment is working, I won’t get lost in IMC. I worry about aircraft control, getting into a steep bank or something, but getting lost is not something that has ever come close to happening. IT is not impossible, if I was out of radio comm and lost my navigation both GPS and VOR (or out of range of VOR). But it’s not likely. Lots of other more likely things to worry about. So long as I am in radar contact and have radio contact, and have Gyros I am OK. Most important navigation equipment is a radio, IMHO. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course.  But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Question:

Hi John, there is a great deal of help available on the net.  A couple of these sites should be of considerable help to you with basic stuff. Most of them have specific beginners sections.  If you have trouble with any of the terms etc, then just post to the group again, somebody will help you. Here are the URL

Question:

Hello: Regarding the proper use of a Wading Staff: Based on users experiences, is the proper/best placement of the staff on the upstream or downstream side of the user when fording? Bob

Response:

Hello: Regarding the proper use of a Wading Staff: Based on users experiences, is the proper/best placement of the staff on the upstream or downstream side of the user when fording? Bob

Downstream, IMHO. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Based on users experiences, is the proper/best placement of the staff on the upstream or downstream side of the user when fording? Bob

Bob, I don’t know that there’s a difinitive answer to your question, but I prefer to keep the staff on my upstream side. It simply feels more stable to me. George Adams

Response:

Well Bob Rose, you got two different answers/opinions: <<Downstream, IMHO. <<Bob, I don’t know that there’s a difinitive answer to your question, but I prefer to keep the staff on my upstream side. It simply feels more stable to me. I favor the downstream, because as George says, "it simply feels more stable".  I can lean into it if need be and if I slip, it is down- stream from me so that I can get a better purchase if I lose it.   Having said this, I *have* used it up-stream, but in "kinder, gentler" water.  <g Dave L.

Response:

Wading in difficult water takes planning. the important thing is to hold it in your right hand – if right handed, for the best grip – then keep the staff to the right side of your body. If the water flows from right to left and you are right handed . Putting the staff downstream will put it across your body – you can trip on it then. Wading very heavy water you’ll  want to lean into the wading staff for extra support as you move one foot – get a firm footing – move the other foot – get a firm footing and then move the staff. – you’ll be leaning into it downstream to minimize the force of the current. In such situations orient yourself downstream and crab walk side ways heading across and somehwat downstream.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello: Regarding the proper use of a Wading Staff: Based on users experiences, is the proper/best placement of the staff on the upstream or downstream side of the user when fording? Bob

Response:

Let’s make that three different answers/opinions Dave, I am right handed and prefer to keep the wading staff in my right hand at all times. Ernie Harrison Have you tried a Blood Knot Machine?  http://home.pacbell.net/ernie2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Well Bob Rose, you got two different answers/opinions: <<Downstream, IMHO. <<Bob, I don’t know that there’s a difinitive answer to your question, but I prefer to keep the staff on my upstream side. It simply feels more stable to me. I favor the downstream, because as George says, "it simply feels more stable".  I can lean into it if need be and if I slip, it is down- stream from me so that I can get a better purchase if I lose it. Having said this, I *have* used it up-stream, but in "kinder, gentler" water.  <g Dave L.

Response:

I favor the downstream, because as George says, "it simply feels more stable".  I can lean into it if need be and if I slip, it is down- stream from me so that I can get a better purchase if I lose it.   Having said this, I *have* used it up-stream, but in "kinder, gentler" water.  <g Dave L.

In heavy current, always downstream for balance no matter what the hand.  On rocky, uneven bottoms in slower water, the right hand for strength.  On sharply sloping bottoms (a.k.a. the wing dam,) down slope side.  I also use it to climb in and out of the water on steep banks (right hand.) Peter

Response:

Hello: Regarding the proper use of a Wading Staff: Based on users experiences, is the proper/best placement of the staff on the upstream or downstream side of the user when fording? Bob

Well, if you’re wading, the directions that mainly seem to matter are upstream and downstream. And, well, if through some herculean (‘fortenberrian?’) effort, you manage to fall upstream, you’re soon enough going to be headed downstream with that whole current thing going on. So, for me, it stands to reason, in lieu of exceptional circumstances, you’d pretty much want that baby sticking out on your downstream side. Can’t we all just get along? – sid

Response:

Peter Charlles: <<I also use it to climb in and out of the water on steep banks (right hand.) And a machete in your left hand to cut through the mountain laurel.  <g Dave L.

Response:

Hello Bob: Always put your staff up stream and be wary of wading down stream. Sometimes you can wade down current but find you cannot wade back up current. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello: Regarding the proper use of a Wading Staff: Based on users experiences, is the proper/best placement of the staff on the upstream or downstream side of the user when fording? Bob

Response:

My problem with a staff has always been what to do with the damn thing when I’m not using it — hang it over my back (it slips off), let it float (it bangs on rocks and tries to trip me). Always glad to have it when I need it though…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello Bob: Always put your staff up stream and be wary of wading down stream. Sometimes you can wade down current but find you cannot wade back up current. Hello: Regarding the proper use of a Wading Staff: Based on users experiences, is the proper/best placement of the staff on the upstream or downstream side of the user when fording? Bob

Response:

_______  Wading Staff can be replaced with a Wading Cane.  These have a crook in the handle which can be draped over one arm, a shoulder or hooked into the top of a set of chest waders.   There is no such thing as the ‘carefree’ wading staff or cane.  But a wading cane does offer different ways to hang or carry them out of the way. Mr. G.

Response:

Palmer writes:

<<My problem with a staff has always been what to do with the damn thing when I’m not using it — hang it over my back (it slips off), let it float (it bangs on rocks and tries to trip me). Always glad to have it when I need it though… I know a ffer who has wrapped and taped foam over the handle, and the staff floats harmlessly out of his way.  The  collapsable type are easy to fold up when not in use, but a pain to take the time to do so.  It’s a big trade-off — if you need it, you will have to put up with a little inconvenience.  In the water I fish, I can’t live without it.  <g Dave L.

Response:

In heavy current, always downstream for balance no matter what the hand.

Crap! As soon as you lift the staff from the bottom, you’re toppled off balance by the current and away off downstream! Thrilling stuff, but not what you’re after. In really heavy current: lean INTO the stream; both hands on the pole if necessary. If you have to ’shoot the rapids’, best to do it feet forwards. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

Tony,    That was  spoken like a man who has learned the art of wading fast water the hard way. Ernie Harrison Have you tried a Blood Knot Machine?  http://home.pacbell.net/ernie2 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In heavy current, always downstream for balance no matter what the hand. Crap! As soon as you lift the staff from the bottom, you’re toppled off balance by the current and away off downstream! Thrilling stuff, but not what you’re after. In really heavy current: lean INTO the stream; both hands on the pole if necessary. If you have to ’shoot the rapids’, best to do it feet forwards. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

I usually keep mine high up in the air flailing as I’m falling – usually in 1 foot or less of water.  Funny, I bought the thing so I wouldn’t fall in, but I have only fallen in when I’m using a staff. Maybe I’m less careful when using a staff? When I’m not falling I like to use it on both sides – the side opposite the foot I’m moving- and I push on the staff to balance back to that foot. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello: Regarding the proper use of a Wading Staff: Based on users experiences, is the proper/best placement of the staff on the upstream or downstream side of the user when fording? Bob

Response:

Crap! As soon as you lift the staff from the bottom, you’re toppled off balance by the current and away off downstream! Thrilling stuff, but not what you’re after. In really heavy current: lean INTO the stream; both hands on the pole if necessary. If you have to ’shoot the rapids’, best to do it feet forwards. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Some of us make sure our feet are planted before we lift our staffs. Peter

Response:

Tony Deacon: Crap! As soon as you lift the staff from the bottom, you’re toppled off balance by the current and away off downstream! Thrilling stuff, but not what you’re after. In really heavy current: lean INTO the stream; both hands on the pole if necessary. If you have to ’shoot the rapids’, best to do it feet forwards. Tight Lines,

Crap back at ya, Tony.  <g  With it down stream you *are* leaning into the current, both hands on the pole if necessary.  You are pushing yourself into the current with it down-stream.  If the pole should slip up-stream, you’re gonna have a tuff time replanting it. Not so on a down stream plant.  Besides, as Peter has said, make sure you feet are planted before you lift the staff (regardless it is up or down-stream). Dave L.

Response:

Tony Deacon: Crap! As soon as you lift the staff from the bottom, you’re toppled off balance by the current and away off downstream! Thrilling stuff, but not what you’re after. In really heavy current: lean INTO the stream; both hands on the pole if necessary. If you have to ’shoot the rapids’, best to do it feet forwards. Tight Lines, Crap back at ya, Tony.  <g  With it down stream you *are* leaning into the current, both hands on the pole if necessary.  

I read something not long ago about wading staff use and it made what seemed at the time to be a pretty good argument for upstream use. I’ll try to remember where I read it. — Charlie…

Response:

Hello: Regarding the proper use of a Wading Staff: Based on users experiences, is the proper/best placement of the staff on the upstream or downstream side of the user when fording?

I can’t imagine it makes much difference so long as it keeps you right side up, but I use mine on the downstream side, usually. Joe F.

Response:

Tony,   That was  spoken like a man who has learned the art of wading fast water the hard way.

You bet Ernie! I have ‘dan grade’ in falling in, which I’ve practised since an early age. It doesn’t bother me much (I swim like a fish) and sometimes I quite like the adventure. But as I get older, priorities change and I’m not quite so keen on a ducking in Scotland in February. Besides, fishing time is precious (and expensive) and I’ve better things to be doing than admiring the view as I float off towards Aberdeen or the Moray Firth. Back to topic: I use lead shot loaded ski poles as wading staffs, with an over shoulder lanyard attached to the TOP of the pole handle (where the wrist strap of a ski pole normally attaches). This way, the staff can ‘trail’ unobtrusively out-of-the-way when not needed. Wading staffs usually have the lanyard attached below the handle, which creates an irritating angle between lanyard and handle that catches the fly line/fences/bushes/gate bars, etc. I can catch up my staff easily without looking because the lanyard is exactly the right length: I just hook my thumb under the lanyard; push out my arm to full stretch and close my hand. The grip of the pole is always right there. I’ll say this again: in REALLY strong current, you need the full advantage of the triangular base formed by your feet and the wading staff, with the staff and your centre of gravity UPSTREAM of your feet. You should be leaning on the pole and INTO the current. Every placement of foot or staff has to be careful, but you can’t afford to dither. Once you lose it, it’s very hard to recover … and then you’re off sightseeing. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

Tony,    Sounds like an effective outfit, thanks for the tips.  I might add that I find Cross Country Ski Poles are better to use for wading staffs because they are longer. Ernie Harrison Have you tried a Blood Knot Machine?  http://home.pacbell.net/ernie2

<snip I use lead shot loaded ski poles as wading staffs, with an

over shoulder lanyard attached to the TOP of the pole handle (where the wrist strap of a ski pole normally attaches). This way, the staff can ‘trail’ unobtrusively out-of-the-way when not needed. Wading staffs usually have the lanyard attached below the handle, which creates an irritating angle between lanyard and handle that catches the fly line/fences/bushes/gate bars, etc. I can catch up my staff easily without looking because the lanyard is exactly the right length: I just hook my thumb under the lanyard; push out my arm to full stretch and close my hand. The grip of the pole is always right there. I’ll say this again: in REALLY strong current, you need the full advantage of the triangular base formed by your feet and the wading staff, with the staff and your centre of gravity UPSTREAM of your feet. You should be leaning on the pole and INTO the current. Every placement of foot or staff has to be careful, but you can’t afford to dither. Once you lose it, it’s very hard to recover … and then you’re off sightseeing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tony Deacon

Response:

Tony,   Sounds like an effective outfit, thanks for the tips.  I might add that I find Cross Country Ski Poles are better to use for wading staffs because they are longer.

Yes, those are the ones I use too. TL, Tony Deacon

Response:

Hello: Regarding the proper use of a Wading Staff: Based on users experiences, is the proper/best placement of the staff on the upstream or downstream side of the user when fording? Bob

Down stream side with a landyard long enought to just reach the handle of the staff.   I would buy old ski poles and pull the bottom gizmo off, then drill a hole in the handle for the landyard……it works great, and cheap. Sharp Hooks, Pat Holdzit Fishing Products Inc. http://www.holdzit.com Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

Hi My sentiments are similar to Christian’s first posting. I prefer a slightly stiffer rod when Spey casting, I started with a so called "Spey" but found it difficult to achieve distance without perfect timing. You need to slow down your whole casting action, wait for the rod to load before applying the power. Timing is everything when using a traditional Spey actioned rod. They are not suitable for using with any kind of sinking line, the action is just too slow and this gives the line time to sink between the "back cast" and forward cast. I soon changed to a 15′ 1" Sage with a stiffer action and found this to be near perfect for me, with both floating and sinking lines. It can be used with shooting heads as Christian mentions (12 meters of #12 line is perfect) and casts of 40+ yards are fairly routine with this method. It is tireing though having to strip in nearly 30 yards of line every cast. As for breakages, the more expensive the rod the better the guarentee (usually), my Sage has a lifetime guarentee, the Diawa doesn’t have any guarentee. As usual it all comes down to "how much you want to spend". Bruce & Walker rods are a range I can recommend – buy the "Walker" rods they have the stiffer action. The Norway or Speycaster range are excellent rods. The Diawa Amorphous is a good range. At the top of the tree are the Sage and the Hardy Ultralite/Elite range. Only my opinions. Chris

Response:

Hi Chris

Hi Chris I would like to make a couple of small but very important points here regarding your change from one rod to another. It is my humble opinion  your first rod didn’t quite suit your casting style and or body shape. With the greatest respects that doesn’t mean that particular rod is not suitable for somebody else. Just as your move to a Sage doesn’t mean that a Sage will suit everybody. My point is that the individual must buy a rod that suits/fits him or her. Two of my mates fish and cast perfectly well with 19ft (yes 19 feet) B&W’s but I cannot cast very well with them. I can cast however the same amount of line (as them) with a 15ft B&W, I can also cast a few of the other available rods, including almost all of the Daiwa rods, equally well. Other rods that I cannot come to grips with are the B&W Hexograph the Sage (Chris’s rod) and some of the Walkers although I think with practice I could master the Walkers. My point is that someone buying a new rod must try a few out first and choose the one that they think suits them. I fish regularly with a stiff rod the B&W 15ft heavy duty Expert, but this rod has a very fast action, unlike the slower action of the ones I cannot use. As mentioned before there are many X’s in the equation and here are some of them. A stiff rod with a fast action A stiff rod with a slow action A soft rod with a slow action ( I can’t think of a soft rod that’s got a fast action) The size of line you choose to fish with your chosen rod, (normally rods are rated for three sizes, but there is a tremendous difference between a 9 and an 11. This will also has an impact on how soft the rod feels and casts) Floating etc…etc…etc…. Okay I’m off the pedastal ) Regards Lawr, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi My sentiments are similar to Christian’s first posting. I prefer a slightly stiffer rod when Spey casting, I started with a so called "Spey" but found it difficult to achieve distance without perfect timing. You need to slow down your whole casting action, wait for the rod to load before applying the power. Timing is everything when using a traditional Spey actioned rod. They are not suitable for using with any kind of sinking line, the action is just too slow and this gives the line time to sink between the "back cast" and forward cast. I soon changed to a 15′ 1" Sage with a stiffer action and found this to be near perfect for me, with both floating and sinking lines. It can be used with shooting heads as Christian mentions (12 meters of #12 line is perfect) and casts of 40+ yards are fairly routine with this method. It is tireing though having to strip in nearly 30 yards of line every cast. As for breakages, the more expensive the rod the better the guarentee (usually), my Sage has a lifetime guarentee, the Diawa doesn’t have any guarentee. As usual it all comes down to "how much you want to spend". Bruce & Walker rods are a range I can recommend – buy the "Walker" rods they have the stiffer action. The Norway or Speycaster range are excellent rods. The Diawa Amorphous is a good range. At the top of the tree are the Sage and the Hardy Ultralite/Elite range. Only my opinions. Chris

Response:

My fishing buddy and I have obseved a few people Spey casting up here on the Miramichi.  It looks like fun.  They cast a mile-long line.  But, we have always wondered if the method helps them catch more fish?  We cover the same amount of water (or more) by fishing from a canoe.  If there are fish that are out of our reach, we just move the boat into a position so that we get a good swing over them. JB

Response:

Hi Lawr You are right to make these valid points but I thought I had mentioned them in my original posting, I checked and I had. I prefer a slightly stiffer rod when Spey casting Timing is everything when using a traditional Spey actioned rod. I soon changed to a 15′ 1" Sage with a stiffer action and found this to be near perfect for me

I think these snippits confirm that the information I gave was MY preferences, I was not trying to make hard and fast rules that apply to everybody. As for hard and fast rules I still believe the only comment I made against traditional actioned "spey" rods was They are not suitable for using with any kind of sinking line, the action is just too slow and this gives the line time to sink between the "back cast" and forward cast.

and this is something I still maintain. Thanks for keeping us on our toes Lawr. Chris

Response:

I’m sorry Chris!! I wasn’t trying to have a go at your opinions, postings can often come across a bit strong. My intention was to add other considerations to all the other opinions including yours. Don’t mind me I rattle on a bit when it’s a subject I like ) however I can say sorry and I can do a U-Turn if I’m wrong ) Best Regards Lawr, PS Have you checked out the Ness System reports etc…on my website?? www.f-deans.freeserve.co.uk – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Lawr You are right to make these valid points but I thought I had mentioned them in my original posting, I checked and I had. I prefer a slightly stiffer rod when Spey casting Timing is everything when using a traditional Spey actioned rod. I soon changed to a 15′ 1" Sage with a stiffer action and found this to be near perfect for me I think these snippits confirm that the information I gave was MY preferences, I was not trying to make hard and fast rules that apply to everybody. As for hard and fast rules I still believe the only comment I made against traditional actioned "spey" rods was They are not suitable for using with any kind of sinking line, the action is just too slow and this gives the line time to sink between the "back cast" and forward cast. and this is something I still maintain. Thanks for keeping us on our toes Lawr. Chris

Response:

Hi, I am interested in buying a double handed salmon rod, It should be quite allround, so I am thinking of a rod of about 14′ for #9/10. I have been casting both (still having to learn a lot) and like the single and double Spey and rollcasts. Should I choose the somewhat softer "old" design Speycastrods or would a modern stiffer design be better ???? I don’t want to start with just a cheap rod, then a fair rod, a good rod and after that buying a realy nice rod. Good advise is welcome……. Regards, Ger.

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It should be quite allround, so I am thinking of a rod of about 14′ for #9/10. [...] Should I choose the somewhat softer "old" design Speycastrods or would a modern stiffer design be better ????

I say go for the modern stiffer design.  Not that you especially need a stiff rod, but because the old design speyrods were designed with traditional speycasting in mind, meaning loading the rod all the way around the spey cast. Nowadays, you would just go with a shooting head and a spiced up roll cast. I’ll happily admit, I’m drawing up two extremes here, and even though your question kinda opened that door, it isn’t particularly useful in terms of fishing. The old style spey casting would enable you to cast a 45 yard DT line in a single casting motion, but it required very good technique and it was also hard work. Rods had to be heavy and slow action to perform such a cast, and I think you need to wear tweed to get it right, as well..   That time has past, basically. — At least here in Norway. ( it seems the time of rivers packed with salmon are gone up here too..)  Lightweight, fast rods are dominating, and shooting heads are getting more popular. Some still use WF-lines or other taperings, in contrast to the now rare, but formerly very popular DT line. Most people tend to retrieve quite a bit of line before making the cast (especially with shooting heads), and the cast isn’t really a jolly old God save the Queen spey cast (Hi there, Brits! , but more like an advanced roll cast. It works, and I’ve found it to be much easier than real spey casting. The distance potential is impeccable, and its only drawback is that you have your fly less in the water than with real spey casting (due to line retrieval between casts). Also, sinking vs. floating line can make a difference in your choice. To handle a sinking line, a light weight, fast tip-action rod might not be sufficient. But for WF or ST floating lines, the faster and lighter rod would excel. So, I think you need to ask yourself, do you want to fish effectively and easily with a two-handed rod, or do you in fact want to learn the traditional spey casting?  Absolutely nothing wrong with the latter. I may be off with my definitions. The last time I responded to a spey cast question, several knowledgeable people objected and offered alternative views, and I can’t guarantee I got it right this time. I just feel that you perhaps shouldn’t go for the heavy, slow action rod, based solely on tradition, without considering more modern applications of two-handed casting (and besides, slow action rods doesn’t have to be heavy – I just made that up.. ). As always when buying a rod, test casting several options is the best way to go. We all have our quirks and preferences. Too fast of an action can be very bad, considering you’re dealing with a 14′ rod here –the longer the rod, the more accuracy is needed in handling it. Personally, I would put great emphasis on weight. I use to have a Bruce & Walker Powerlite 15′, an absolutely wonderful rod, extremely light weight for its size. It broke, and most other rods I’ve tried, made me and especially my back longing for my B&W.. Its successor is the B&W Powerlite Speycaster, and if you have the chance, I’d suggest you have a look at it. — Christian Figenschou – http://figen.com

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Should I choose the somewhat softer "old" design Speycastrods or would a modern stiffer design be better ????

If you plan to use switch, single and double spey casts, then go with a true "spey" rod. If you plan to use casts like one would with a trout rod (i.e. overhand + false casting), then go with a more modern rod. The big difference is that the spey rod flexes for the entire length of the shaft, and it can handle flexing in all directions.  More modern rods have a "progressive taper" where the butt section of the shaft hardly bends and most of the flex occurs in the top 1/3-rd of the shaft.  Modern rods have also been optimized for front-back casting, and may not handle flexing in all directions as well as a spey rod. Finally, don’t confuse stiffness with power.  Modern rods have a quick snappy tip designed to generate high line speed over a short distance.  Older rods, including glass, generate moderate line speed, but over a greater distance. In part because of my decent but not super-powerful wrist and forearm strength, I feel like I can toss a line farther and more accurately with the softer rods. Thomas Gilg

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Thomas and Christian have given you very good advice however it is my humble opinion that you must buy a rod that suits/fits  *you*.  When buying a pair of shoes you do not buy a pair that fits somebody else and this is the case with Spey Rods. When Spey casting/fishing there are many many X’s in the equation and without trying a rod on to see if it *fits* you (and the type of water you are fishing) you will be unaware of them. This is why it takes years to perfect a good Spey cast. You are right however to go for a good quality rod first time round. On the river Ness System Scotland, a great Spey casting area, the most common rod is the Daiwa  Amorphous 15 or 16 ft, I don’t own one at the moment but if buying a new rod I would buy the 15ft. The extra lightweight rods *may* have a tendency to break as Christian pointed out especially if using a sink tip or full sinking line. HTH Lawr, www.f-deans.freeserve.co.uk         "Fishing On The Fly"               :{)< – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi, I am interested in buying a double handed salmon rod, It should be quite allround, so I am thinking of a rod of about 14′ for #9/10. I have been casting both (still having to learn a lot) and like the single and double Spey and rollcasts. Should I choose the somewhat softer "old" design Speycastrods or would a modern stiffer design be better ???? I don’t want to start with just a cheap rod, then a fair rod, a good rod and after that buying a realy nice rod. Good advise is welcome……. Regards, Ger.

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Oh! dear does your friend have a licence ) (only kidding) When you get accustomed to a rod it is difficult to make the transition to another rod. Even two rods from the same maker with exactly the same specifications (i.e. two B&W 15ft heavy duty Experts) can have different actions. Over the years I have seen quite a few Spey rods broken during casting (the noise is a bit like a gun going off) with no particular rod type being the worst case.  IMHO it would be more difficult to break an Expert than say a Powerlight especially if using a sinking line or sink tip coupled with 3 inch leaded waddington. I know the above is an extreme case but you may need a rod that is capable of fishing all the extremes. Regards Lawr, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The extra lightweight rods *may* have a tendency to break as Christian pointed out especially if using a sink tip or full sinking line. In this particular case, I’ve found them to have a tendency of breaking when your friend runs over them with his car..   — Christian Figenschou – http://figen.com

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Lost set up, hard drive kaput. need name of the usenet fly tying group. Any help appreciated. —  *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *       *  *  Skip Summer             From somewhere in the Huron River, *  *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *       *

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Lost set up, hard drive kaput. need name of the usenet fly tying group. Any help appreciated.

rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying — Charlie…

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Olympus Pro-Master Twin. Water resistant. Great lens. Great pictures. Gary C. "Lie ? Me ? Never!  No, no, no, the truth is far too much fun !" – Captain Hook

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 One other thing to consider….choose a camera that has "macro focus". This feature allows you to have clearly focussed shots of fish that are between 1 to 4 feet away from you.  Such as, right at your feet, or on your lap while in a float tube.  Many cameras don’t have this capaability and you will end up with a blurred image of your prize…….

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I use one of those cheap-ass disposable jobs.  It doesn’t take the greatest pictures but all I care about is "evidence."  Besides, I wade too deep and fall too much. I don’t want to have to worry about a camera when I should be worried about the fish (and myself for that matter.)

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I carry a Pentax 90WR.  This is a "showerproof" zoom fully automatic compact.  It is slightly larger and heavier than most compacts but I prefer that.  When turned off, it would survive a complete dunking (shallow water) – certainly if it was in a case or in a vest pocket – and will operate in rainy conditions if required. Laurie Melbourne, Victoria Australia – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I’m new to flyfishing and I’d trying to decide what kind of camera to permanently carry in my fly vest. What do you guys use? _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ Neil Summers Calgary, Alberta Canada _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/

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  Hi   I’m new to flyfishing and I’d trying to decide what kind of camera to   permanently carry in my fly vest. What do you guys use?

        In addition to those already mentioned you might want to look into an Olympus camera I think is called the "Stylus." (?) I have an older model Olympus which isn’t made anymore but which I *think* was replaced by the Stylus, which I also think has the features I bought mine for: I.e. not only a 35 mm wide angle lens but also a 70 mm lens which is very nice, and a "splashproof" rating saying it is seriously water-resistant, usable even in the rain. (Just not good for use underwater.) In fact I’ve had it submerged for a good 10 minute dunk once on accident and it has showed no ill effects, and it has gotten wet many times in the rain, even in the cold rain while duck hunting. Mine cost me about $170 if I recall right.         As stated, I *think* the Stylus is its replacement, and the only change I know of is that it is smaller. But if not, then I’d look for a camera giving you at least those two features of a "zoom"-type second lens (which has really turned out to be very very nice if not indispensable) and at least some degree of water-proofedness.         Cheers, and good luck. Let us know what you decide. Tom B. (P.S. Though, as one other poster noted, if you really are after very very fine quality shots don’t get a camera with two lenses; get the one with the Zeiss lens. But expect to pay, and if you are just after casual snaps, expect to wish that you had something other than a wide-angle lens.)

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HI and thanks, I’ll be in New Orleans early next month.  If you can recommend a guide, or other contact,  for redfish or other local fishing targets, I be very appreciative.   — Tim Ackerman "everyone lives downstream"

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HI and thanks, I’ll be in New Orleans early next month.  If you can recommend a guide, or other contact,  for redfish or other local fishing targets, I be very appreciative. — Tim Ackerman "everyone lives downstream"

Hi- I checked this out last year. There is a guide there by the name (I think) of Bubba Rodriguez (which I think they pronounce Buh-bee) who has been featured on ESPN in the past and was kind of a fly fishing pioneer in New Orleans. Unfortunately, I have lost his phone number, but maybe someone from New Orleans can help. I got the info by placing a post on Good Luck!

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Someone posted a really nice list of web sites for flyfishing within the last week, but I inadvertantly deleted it.  Could you be so kind as to re-post it?

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Try http://www.eaglenet.com/PaxP/mstrs/fishing.html

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Hi there, Anyone have advice on driftboats?  We live in Seattle and can’t help but slobber at the parade of drift dories you see on the rivers around here.  From what I’ve been able to gather, it seems 16 feet is a good all around size but what about materials?  Wood, aluminum or fiberglass?  Wood seems to be making a comeback. Can fiberglass be durable enough? Hmmm. What about necessary gizmos and accessories? Help!

Darren Wooden driftboats can be very nice.  Can last a long time if you take care of them.  But they do take more maintenance than a glass or aluminum boat. Wood boats arn’t cheap if you buy a new one.  Some of the used ones can be pretty junky.   Jim

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Mr Gehrke, is this you speaking or the imposter? how do we know? (I thought you resigned from this group.)   BWalter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jim.  If you’re going to do it . . . do it right!  Spend the money.  Its cheap enough entertainment as it is.  Beats hanging around in the bars. Trust me. George Gehrke Mr. Gink

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi there, Anyone have advice on driftboats?  We live in Seattle and can’t help but slobber at the parade of drift dories you see on the rivers around here.  From what I’ve been able to gather, it seems 16 feet is a good all around size but what about materials?  Wood, aluminum or fiberglass?  Wood seems to be making a comeback. Can fiberglass be durable enough? Hmmm. What about necessary gizmos and accessories? Help! Darren Wooden driftboats can be very nice.  Can last a long time if you take care of them.  But they do take more maintenance than a glass or aluminum boat. Wood boats arn’t cheap if you buy a new one.  Some of the used ones can be pretty junky. Jim

JIM tells you correct.  Wood boats are higher in maintenance but are also heavier to handle around the trailer. Fiberglass with a Jell-Coated Bottom such as a Don Hill will last you the rest of your life.  Metal boats (aluminum) are noisy and cold and hang up on rocks with a vengence.  Don’t ever commit to an aluminum drift boat.  BIG mistake!  All day in a cold river and your feet will be talking too you.  16 feet is exactly the best size as it floats shallower than a 14 footer and you can haul more and/or you don’t have to work as hard holding an oared position while you cast. Remember, overall a McKenzie Drift Boat Design is a two person operation.  One rows and one fishes.  You can go alone but it will be anchor and fish or dead drift and fish.  It works but not as efficiently with any boat. Don Hill (Springfield Or PH: 541-747-7430) Drift Boats are strong and have all the design features you need.  They have a very nice front casting deck with stripping line area and hip brace recess so you can stand without fear of falling.  You will have GOBS of storage and plent of storage space and even a large floor area for extra coolers and gear. You will want a quick release anchoring system and of course lead anchors, which I sometimes make special for friends at only a dollar a pound plus shipping.  You will want two anchors.  One for front and rear. You will need rope, and three oars.  (A backup or spare)  You will need to buy a trailer.  Don Hill does it all.  If you call him, say hello for me. I’ve owned one of his boats for over ten years now.  It has seen the wars on volcano rock rivers, boulders, and gravel bars.  It is the kind of boat I have put my life at stake in and it has always come through. If you have never shot "The Narrows" on the No-Name River here with me . . . you won’t know what I mean.  Ray Baker has owned a lot of drift boats in his guiding career and a Don Hill  boat had always been high on his list. There are other McKenzie Brand of Drift Boats but dollar for dollar, a Hill boat will serve you well.  They take a lot of abuse. When just starting out in this arena of fly fishing or fishing, you will need to spend some bucks to set yourself up right . . . because if you don’t, where a drift boat will take you . . . and you WILL GO THERE NOW, you will be glad you did.  Remember to have life-vests for everyone aboard and never have them hidden away. Hang your wooden oars vertically off some wall with none of it standing on the floor so your oars don’t ever take a warp or bend.  Never store your oars horizonally, anywhere.  Always hang them up. This is all the advise I have for now.  I’ve been drift boat fishing all my life.  I think you can count on what I offer here with confidence. It is also the safest kind of boat to own for the family and they are very stable.  Whatever you do, do NOT purchase a Clackacraft as you will be sorry in a number of ways.  Cheap is not the way to go in this arena Jim.  If you’re going to do it . . . do it right!  Spend the money.  Its cheap enough entertainment as it is.  Beats hanging around in the bars. Trust me. George Gehrke Mr. Gink

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Fiberglass is plenty durable for all but the roughest conditions.  I have a glass reinforced wood boat, which serves me well in the lower reaches of puget sound rivers, but I wouldn’t use it in rougher waters. I’ve had wood and fiberglass.  Fiberglas is much easier to care for, but wood is much cooler.  Especially if you build it yourself.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi there, Anyone have advice on driftboats?  We live in Seattle and can’t help but slobber at the parade of drift dories you see on the rivers around here.  From what I’ve been able to gather, it seems 16 feet is a good all around size but what about materials?  Wood, aluminum or fiberglass?  Wood seems to be making a comeback. Can fiberglass be durable enough? Hmmm. What about necessary gizmos and accessories? Help! Hi Darren I own a wood drift boat.  They are beautiful but do take a bit of extra maintenance.  Fiber glass is very good and I personally think the Hyde drift boat is top of the line.  You can contact those people at 208-529-4343. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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Hi there, Anyone have advice on driftboats?  We live in Seattle and can’t help but slobber at the parade of drift dories you see on the rivers around here.  From what I’ve been able to gather, it seems 16 feet is a good all around size but what about materials?  Wood, aluminum or fiberglass?  Wood seems to be making a comeback. Can fiberglass be durable enough? Hmmm. What about necessary gizmos and accessories? Help!

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Can fiberglass be durable enough?

Hi Darren, Don’t know much about driftboats but I was on the Yakima with a guide recently in a Lavro driftboat (fiberglass).  I asked him about durability and he said Lavro (they’re in Monroe, I think) guarantees the hull for life for recreational users and 5 years for guides.  His is still in good shape after 6 years. I don’t know any more about them, though. BTW, no affiliation with Lavro. If you become expert on the subject I’d be interested in your findings. If my wife knew I was even THINKING about spending big dough on some 16 foot garage monster. . .<g Good Luck, August Kristoferson Watercolor Fish Art http://www.eskimo.com/~augustk

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Hi there, Anyone have advice on driftboats?  We live in Seattle and can’t help but slobber at the parade of drift dories you see on the rivers around here.  From what I’ve been able to gather, it seems 16 feet is a good all around size but what about materials?  Wood, aluminum or fiberglass?  Wood seems to be making a comeback. Can fiberglass be durable enough? Hmmm. What about necessary gizmos and accessories? Help!

In my area in southwest Montana,  I’d have to say that the 15-16′ fiberglass drift boat is the most popular.  However, from what I know of the river’s in your area on the west coast, I’d consider aluminum.  Wood is nice, quiet, and warm, but the upkeep is high. Don’t think fiberglass is durable enough for your coastal rivers.  As far as the gizmos go, I’d suggest anchor system and plenty of watertight storage.  Seat configuration is different on the coast, I think.  I’d try and talk to a couple of guides in the area who aren’t selling a line of boats.  Good luck! — Dave Kumlien Montana Troutfitters 1716 W. Main St., Bozeman, MT 59715 http://www.gomontana.com/Business/Trout/trout.html http://www.ffa.com/montana/montanatroutfitters.html

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Hi there, Anyone have advice on driftboats?

snip Hey Darren- 16 ft drift boats give you a little more room, but turn slower than a 15′. I have a Alumaweld 15′ that has been around since Jesus was in high school!  I am very happy with mine.  After a day on the river, I just tip it up and run a hose over it for a couple of minutes.  I could not tell you the difference in "stickiness" on rocks as compared with a glass boat, but I have not had any problems.  I would think that Aluminum has to be stronger than fiberglass when your bouncing off the rocks MTCW. Hope this helps — Keep their Heads Up! Bob Crossley Tillamook Country Smoker, Inc.

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Hi there, Anyone have advice on driftboats?  We live in Seattle and can’t help but slobber at the parade of drift dories you see on the rivers around here.  From what I’ve been able to gather, it seems 16 feet is a good all around size but what about materials?  Wood, aluminum or fiberglass?  Wood seems to be making a comeback. Can fiberglass be durable enough? Hmmm. What about necessary gizmos and accessories? Help!

Hi Darren I own a wood drift boat.  They are beautiful but do take a bit of extra maintenance.  Fiber glass is very good and I personally think the Hyde drift boat is top of the line.  You can contact those people at 208-529-4343. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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