Question:

Since it seems my employeer is blocking post’s to UseNet – it is a little old but . . .

Neat report.  Sounds like you already had a chance to fly fish some quality water.  Tight lines. Mu

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Nice TR, Marshall. Sounds like you had a pretty good guide.

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Merced River:   This is the river that flows right through the middle of Yosemite, and gets heavy fishing pressure in the summer.  The guide I hired took us down below where most of the crowd fish.

Marshall, it was very close to there that I decided to take up fly fishing more seriously!  I had dabbled a little, but I was spinning on this particular trip to Yosemite.  I saw some trout in a feeding lane in a small clear pool, and there was no way I could catch them on my little spinner. It drove me nuts.  I decided then and there I was going to flyfish and next time I see some fish like those, I’m gonna get ‘em, dammit!  Fun trip.  I hiked down a trail (Tuolomne?) and ran into a couple guys camping who had a massive wild brown they caught on a Rapala in a deep canyon section.  Yup, different techniques are best for different conditions

Response:

Since it seems my employeer is blocking post’s to UseNet – it is a little old but . . . My first TR, so here goes . . . Location:  Merced River – Yosemite National Park, CA            Off Hwy 140, 1 mile below the 120/140 stop sign Elevation: 4,000 ft Date/Time: Saturday, Nov. 4th, 2001 [11am-4:30pm] Pictures located at: http://homepage.mac.com/mkrasser/PhotoAlbum4.html This is still my freshman year of flyfishing, [I started last Aug. 2001 on the Big Wood River in Sun Valley, ID.  Followed by a trip in Sept to the Feather River [Ca], 5 weeks ago I was at Putah Creek, [Ca], 4 weeks ago the Russian River [Ca], and 2 weeks ago a trip on the Klamath River [Ca] (K.R. pictures included at above web location). A quick Mini-TR on the Kamath,  the Salmon fishing was hot!  BUT, since we were NOT using flies I will not detail the 20 fish we caught and released [barbless hooks and roe] we did keep 2 for the smoker. I will mention the Steelhead that we were targeting with flies in the fast water . . . I forgot to "bow to the fish" do I need to say more? I lost the nice 6-7 pounder (guide est.) when it jumped for joy.  I had another major slam that I missed [using a mossback fly] as well.  We did manage to catch/release several nice native trout in our quest for Mr. Steelhead [top lft picure]. Merced River:   This is the river that flows right through the middle of Yosemite, and gets heavy fishing pressure in the summer.  The guide I hired took us down below where most of the crowd fish. This was mega-pocket water!!!  This late in the year, the water level is rather low and is super clear [16 ft leaders, ouch].  Lucky for us, the valley received a light rain the Wed. before our arrival, so the system received a last minute boost before winter.  Anyway, we were climbing over bus size granite boulders and rock hopping cross-stream, to get the perfect angle for the pockets.   I should mention that I dragged my wife along on her first flyfishing outing this day.  I was hoping that I could provide here with a positive experience on this trip, but according to the guide . . . this time of year, and on this river, a PHD is required.  The guide was very hands on and worked with both of us to get the technique down, but he tended to want to do most of the casting himself [we could hold the rod under his hand, though].  Using this technique, he was able to get her hooked into a nice bright orange native male – I was too far away to snap a photo   Even on this cool November day [30's rising to the mid 60's] there was a Baetis and Caddis hatch happening.  When we arrived at the first pool, our guide went nuts – there were at least 5 trout rising to the hatch at the head of the pool and at least one was a brown.   He worked with both of us at this pool, and we both missed our strikes – we then headed up stream to rest these fish.  And found others just as eager to miss our flies as well. I could just NOT see the sz18 Baetis fly in the pocket water.  Cool a swirl, guide say’s ah that was your fly he was swirling at!   We then went back down to pool #1 for try #2 at the fish – same result.  So we headed back upstream again.   We climbed up on this huge boulder and butt dragged to look over the edge – wow TWO 18-20 inchers directly below us.  Hmmm the Guide forgot to warn my wife as to why he and I were moving this way . . . so she walked right up to the edge and said, "oh look – fishies", and they said, "oh look human – goodbye".  Luckly this boulder was so huge it was in 2 zip codes, so they crawled [see pic: guide w/wife] to the head of the rock, and worked that pool. They just could not get the distance needed from here, so the guide and I moved down to water level and I missed another nice one.   We split sides here and I headed to a pool on the left and they headed to what looked like a prime pool.  With the guide’s assistance, BAM – she hooked-up and landed the bright male [14 incher].  On that note we headed back down to pool #1 again [my wet leg and all <grin].   The fish were happily slurping up the emergers and this time I connected.  As my wife pointed out . . . mine was not as big or as pretty as her’s [whatever].  We then hopped in our 4×4’s and headed downstream to what would be prime pocket water for me.   The guide worked a little more with my wife on her casting, but he was not quite patient enough [in my opinion], and I could tell she was getting bored and frustrated.   She said, go on ahead – I’ll rest here – ya right . . . she whipped out her knitting from her backpack and that was the end of that.   The guide and I headed into the land of small pocket water [I was casting rather well un-assisted by now - the guide was surprised - I was one with the line].  Interesting note that probably has no bearing on my flycasting targeting – but I was a deadly bait caster from my Table Rock Lake days – growing up in Missouri – I could flip that plastic worm or jig-n-pig right were I wanted it in the fallen/flooded timber at rather great distances [no use here in California].   Anyway,  I pulled 2 nice ones out of the first pocket just above the main pool and missed another 3 as well.  We figured they had moved up out of the still water to feed.  I was using a caddis pattern [that I could see] for these puppies.   We moved on up to one more small pocket, and the guide made me call where the strike would occur [he nailed it exactly in the previous pocket].  I called it, but after 4 casts and no take – the guide said let’s go home – must not be there.  One more cast I pleaded and that one did it – right where I called it <grin.   As the light started to fade we walked back to our vehicles and called it a day, in this land of giant rocks and golden sunlight. Sorry for the length, Marshall

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Question:

Planning on Rock Creek, then to Libby, first week August.  Any info on the better campgrounds for us tent campers appreciated.  I was raised on Rock Creek, long, long ago– before electification.    Also info on guides in Libby for drifting, Also info on cabins, accomodations as well as campgounds  (if it rains us out)   Al Schuh-fly

Response:

I’d check on the water levels at Rock Creek first, if you mean THE Rock Creek East of Missoula.  The last report I heard was fishing could be over there for the season in the next week or so- water levels are way below normal – check with Doug at the Rock Creek Mercantile (406)825-6440 John

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Planning on Rock Creek, then to Libby, first week August.  Any info on the better campgrounds for us tent campers appreciated.  I was raised on Rock Creek, long, long ago– before electification.    Also info on guides in Libby for drifting, Also info on cabins, accomodations as well as campgounds (if it rains us out)   Al Schuh-fly

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Planning on Rock Creek, then to Libby, first week August.  Any info on the better campgrounds for us tent campers appreciated.  I was raised on Rock Creek, long, long ago– before electification.    Also info on guides in Libby for drifting, Also info on cabins, accomodations as well as campgounds  (if it rains us out)   Al Schuh-fly

Bring your roller skates! — /* Sandy Pittendrigh                  –oO0  * http://montana-riverboats.com/  */

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For river reports. check this URL: http://www.fourrivers.net/index.htm They’re saying that the flow of Rock Creek is down to 332 cfs, which ain’t too good. We’re going out there tomorrow (7/8) and will be back on the 16th. The campground where we’re staying is on Rock Creek, but we’re going to concentrate on fishing the Blackfoot and the Bitterroot. For tent camping, see the following: http://travelmontana.state.mt.us/faq/links.htm …it has links to all sorts of travel and accomodation sites all over the state. Regards, LR

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Planning on Rock Creek, then to Libby, first week August.  Any info on the better campgrounds for us tent campers appreciated.  I was raised on Rock Creek, long, long ago– before electification.    Also info on guides in Libby for drifting, Also info on cabins, accomodations as well as campgounds (if it rains us out)   Al Schuh-fly

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http://montana.usgs.gov/rt-cgi/gen_tbl_pg for Montana streamflows. http://montana.usgs.gov/rt-cgi/gen_stn_pg?station=12334510 for current Rock Creek conditions. The creek is definitely low but then all the rivers are (at least this side of the divide). The bigger waters are fishing extremely well right now. Lots of Golden Stone and evening caddis right now with good PMD’s late morning to early afternoon. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm 406-626-4022

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d check on the water levels at Rock Creek first, if you mean THE Rock Creek East of Missoula.  The last report I heard was fishing could be over there for the season in the next week or so- water levels are way below normal – check with Doug at the Rock Creek Mercantile (406)825-6440 John Planning on Rock Creek, then to Libby, first week August.  Any info on the better campgrounds for us tent campers appreciated.  I was raised on Rock Creek, long, long ago– before electification.    Also info on guides in Libby for drifting, Also info on cabins, accomodations as well as campgounds (if it rains us out)   Al Schuh-fly

Response:

Question:

Are there such things as clear polarised glasses. All the ones I’ve seen are tinted which defeats the purpose on a darkish day. Or can you get you existing perscription glasses coated with a polarizing layer?

I asked my optomitrist (sp?) exactly that and he said, "No." — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Are there such things as clear polarised glasses. All the ones I’ve seen are tinted which defeats the purpose on a darkish day. Or can you get you existing perscription glasses coated with a polarizing layer? Ari Ari Bert 083 232 9903 Gaelle Bert 083 236 5308 Flyfishing Corner www.troutfishing.co.za +27 11 447 7230 Cnr Craddock & Tyrwhitt Street, Rosebank (Behind Std Bank)

Response:

Are there such things as clear polarised glasses. All the ones I’ve seen are tinted which defeats the purpose on a darkish day. Or can you get you existing perscription glasses coated with a polarizing layer? Ari

if not you might want to try a pair w/ photochromatic lenses (they lighten and darken depending on the conditions).  i have a pair and they work great in the northwest, and we have our share of dark and gloomy days where the only reason for wearing glasses is because of that large fly tearing past our head <G. chris

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From my experience in photography and applying some intuitive reasoning, a polarizing lens with no additional shading will be at a minimum around 50% gray.  This is so because the lens filters out light significantly outside the polarizing plane of the lens. I believe you can order prescription polarized lenses with no additional tint.  At least you used to be able to because I have a pair (with glass lenses) that I bought 20 years ago. Ken (to reply via email remove "zz" from address)

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Are there such things as clear polarised glasses. All the ones I’ve seen are tinted which defeats the purpose on a darkish day. Or can you get you existing perscription glasses coated with a polarizing layer?

I use amber colored lenses.  Don’t know how much light they actually block but it must be considerably less than the other colors as they give the illusion of brightening while cutting down on glare….at least in strong light.  At dusk the true darkening effect is more noticeable, but still less than darker colors.

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Quite by chance I discovered a very interesting little trick.  I use the clip-on/flip-up type of polarised lenses, and these are often only available in either amber or green, and are quite heavily tinted.  I use the amber ones usually, as the contrast is better. I have several pairs, as I like them for driving etc as well as fishing.  I left a pair of these lying on the dashboard of my car for several weeks, with the back of the lenses uppermost, and when I came to use them again, I discovered that the dark tint had more or less disappeared, but the polarising effect had not. Apparently the strong sunlight had bleached the colour out, without damaging the polarising properties.  I have now done this purposely with several sets, and one can reduce the tint quite considerably, in fact a couple of sets are almost clear, but still polarise. This is very useful indeed, especially in dark weather, or in the evening, when the normal lenses block too much light. Might be worth a try for anyone wishing to reduce the tint in such lenses. The lenses are plastic by the way. TL MC — "In order to know what is possible one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are there such things as clear polarised glasses. All the ones I’ve seen are tinted which defeats the purpose on a darkish day. Or can you get you existing perscription glasses coated with a polarizing layer? I use amber colored lenses.  Don’t know how much light they actually block but it must be considerably less than the other colors as they give the illusion of brightening while cutting down on glare….at least in strong light.  At dusk the true darkening effect is more noticeable, but still less than darker colors.

Response:

Are there such things as clear polarised glasses. All the ones I’ve seen are tinted which defeats the purpose on a darkish day. Or can you get you existing perscription glasses coated with a polarizing layer?

I don’t know if you’ll find this helpful or not, but I personally can’t stomach sunglasses over $100.  I bought a pair from Stren (www.basspro.com maybe?) that cost around $35 and come with 2 interchangeable polarized lenses.  The tan/amber color are much better in lower light conditions than the gray color. Regards, Jeff

Response:

I’m not sure i understand very well what you say Ken, (I’m french and sometime i misinterpret some things) so if i say the same thing as you in different words please pardon me. But my background is also in photography. Polarizing glass can be completely clear with no tint at all! But nonetheless there will be an impression of shading because of the re-orientation of the light rays, but the effect won’t be exactly like shading, it’s more like more intense color. Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

Are there such things as clear polarised glasses. All the ones I’ve seen are tinted which defeats the purpose on a darkish day. Or can you get you existing perscription glasses coated with a polarizing layer?

As others have point out, the maximu theoretical transmission of a polarizing film for unpolarized light is 50%. That is because the component of the wrong polarization, approximately 50% of the light present has to be absorbe. Polaroid Corporation, and presumably other film suppliers make several different kinds of polarizers for different puposes. The maximum real transmission possible is about 35%. Sunglass manufacturers use what they think will sell. Several years ago, I was able to find some clipons that were about 35% transmissive at the local 99

Question:

Hello, Does any one have any suggestions for white water rafting or freshwater fishing in the Cairns area? My wife and I will be renting a motorhome for two weeks in may. Also what is the cost and procedures for obtaining a fishing license for a US citizen? Thanks Terry Guerrero

Response:

Terry, There are many options in Cairns for both activities. Most of the whitewater trips are on the Tully River – though others use the south Johnstone River also. The best freshwater fishing is in Lake Tinaroo – mind you that’s not fly fishing, the target fish are barramundi. John Hello, Does any one have any suggestions for white water rafting or freshwater fishing in the Cairns area? My wife and I will be renting a motorhome for two weeks in may. Also what is the cost and procedures for obtaining a fishing license for a US citizen? Thanks Terry Guerrero

   http://www.newsfeeds.com       The Largest Usenet Servers in the World!

Response:

There is also White Water Rafting on the Barron River and there are some multi-day rafting adventures. The most popular one and supposedly the best is the Tully River, it is a full day trip and is being offered by 2 companies, Raging Thunder and R&R. Both are exactly the same price (app. AUD 130,-) and raft exactly the same stretch of river and have lunch at exactly the same spot. Both offer a light meal afterwards, have videos and pictures on sale etc. I have done the trip with both of them and the only real difference I could detect was the "clubhouse" not that one was better than the other but Raging Thunder had a little bit more atmosphere. Most important for your trip are the equipment, appeared to be in good condition at both companies, and the river guides. I had 2 completely different individuals as a guide but both seemed to be very competent. You will find plenty of brochures of both companies once you get to the area, they are also on the internet (somewhere). good luck, Peter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Terry, There are many options in Cairns for both activities. Most of the whitewater trips are on the Tully River – though others use the south Johnstone River also. The best freshwater fishing is in Lake Tinaroo – mind you that’s not fly fishing, the target fish are barramundi. John Hello, Does any one have any suggestions for white water rafting or freshwater fishing in the Cairns area? My wife and I will be renting a motorhome for two weeks in may. Also what is the cost and procedures for obtaining a fishing license for a US citizen? Thanks Terry Guerrero   http://www.newsfeeds.com       The Largest Usenet Servers in the World!

==—–

Response:

Hi Terry For White Water Rafting I went with Raging Thunder on their full day Tully River option, talk about fun!!! http://www.ragingthunder.com.au For Fishing I would recommend Fishing the Tropics. They offer river and estuary fishing depending on what you want to do. They are local guides with alot of knowledge on fishing in the Cairns area. http://www.fishingthetropics.com.au Enjoy your stay. Shil – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, Does any one have any suggestions for white water rafting or freshwater fishing in the Cairns area? My wife and I will be renting a motorhome for two weeks in may. Also what is the cost and procedures for obtaining a fishing license for a US citizen? Thanks Terry Guerrero

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Do you recommend the day trip on the Tully River? Is it quite exciting? Last summer we made a rafting day trip on the Zambezi River in Vic Falls Zimbabwe, that was great fun but also quite dangerous. Every raft flipped on this river. Anne Marie

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Question:

Truely, here in ROFF, one man’s light is another’s lightening rod and we are all illumed by the interchange.

Well said, and while the occasional violent discharge may generate a lot of noise and smoke, the sound and the smell dissipate quickly. — Charlie…

Response:

I don’t think this is quite true. Many people here make every possible effort to help newbies and others at every opportunity, and also welcome new posters.  We also however have a duty as a group to see that misleading information, or bigoted or arbitrary ideas  are at least answered, and in some cases dashed to the ground at once. Continued exposure to such dangerous claptrap might infect the odd newbie or other poster to the extent that he believes at least some of it. This must be avoided at all costs.  Most anglers I know are decent kind generous people, and have no need or wish to spread poisonous or elitist ideas. They just mainly love fishing. They do not go around behaving like pariahs and foisting their ideas or opinions on others in an unpleasant way. It might be that you looked in at just the wrong moment. I do not have the impression that this is an exclusive club as you maintain.  I am rather surprised at the somewhat limited number of regular participants, considering the number of anglers out there, and that this is basically the only show in town, but this could be for a host of reasons, other than those you describe. The only person here in this particular case who started trying to exclude and ridicule people for all sorts of things, was the person you mentioned. There have not been many others, in fact at the moment I can not recall any others of this overt nature. A couple of rather nutty views and comments have been jumped upon immediately, but that is all. At one point every single post emanating from the particular source you mentioned was either misleading, untrue, defamatory, overbearing, bigoted, or otherwise insulting. This sort of thing is bound to cause retaliation to some extent, and a damn good thing too. This group is in my opinion usually very fair in its reactions as a whole. If someone is a racist or a bigot , then his views must be challenged and combated at every turn. The same goes for extremist views. They have no place in fly-fishing which as you say is a haven and a solace for everybody. Hope you have a nice trip. Tight lines ! MC

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(a worthwhile perspective other than mine snipped) Barry, The very diversity of opinion on controversial subjects which gives you alarm is one of the strengths of this group.  What you see over and over is not the stringent "party line" of a narrow focused group, but rather the many colored viewpoints which strenghten our individual world views.  Truely, here in ROFF, one man’s light is another’s lightening rod and we are all illumed by the interchange. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

Yes well, perfectly true, I was rather of the same impression, but was also of the impression that I had spread more than enough shit myself recently, so refrained from the straightforward forthright path evident in your post. Agree with the sentiments though. Must admit to not having seen all that many worthwhile or camaraderie inducing posts from Barry either, but then who the hell am I to judge, just another loud mouthed asshole. But there again, at least my title was officially bestowed, ( and well earned I might add ! ) )) TL MC

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Joe F: <<It is often said that ROFF is Darwinian, and that is certainly true, not from the "survival of the fittest" perspective that our frequent battles would imply; but because it is constantly evolving.   New folks come, some folks go, the subject of immediate interest keeps changing. (rest of excellent post snipped) Wish I had said that, Joe.  That is *exactly* what roff is all about.  Thank you. Louie http://cdesb.com/albolene.html

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Oh well, that’s why I have message filters.

Yeah, for some the internet is a place where they feel they can say anything they please.  For others it is the only place that they have the power to hide from unpleasantness.  After all, that’s why you message filters.

Response:

Brian, Bullseye. Also, it’s obvious that the few loudmouths now dominating ROFF do not have enough knowledge about flyfishing to say much about it. Therefore, they are quick to change the subject.

I’m going to go way out on a limb here and guess that I may be perceived as one of those offensive loudmouths.  And your right, I don’t know enough about fly fishing to offer advice to my betters.  In fact I don’t know enough about ANYTHING to offer my services as a mentor to the world at large.  Your presence here coupled with your contempt for those who have nothing to offer suggests that you are in such a position.  I am delighted.  Please teach me. A popular off-topic twist is to spew on and on about beer and alcohol. So, add a few drinks and bottle of liquor to big egos that know little about flyfishing and you have a newsgroup that is like the current state of ROFF.

Most of the talk about drinking comes from a group who have individually and collectively shown themselves to be very knowledgeable and remarkably devoid of inflated ego.  One occasionally hears someone whine about what a clever bunch of people they think they are.  In fact, they ARE clever.  The exercise of their wit is often mistaken by the intellectually challenged as nastiness and inflated ego.  Damned shame, a lot of good stuff passes a whole bunch of people by. Nonetheless, it is sometimes entertaining.  In time, we’ll get some serious flyfishers back. Bob Elliott

Please recommend some serious fly fishers.  I’d like to see what one looks like.

Response:

Absolutely excellent post, and I believe the truest to date on this subject. Thank you very much indeed. TL MC

Response:

<sanctimonious sneer snipped Well, if it isn’t our old friend Barry, back to drop his second little incendiary device in about as many months and then scurry away as before with his superior morals tucked firmly up his tight ass. I read seventeen responses on this thread before beginning my own.  As usual the majority of respondents are a great deal more courteous and reasonable then your little slap in the face should have earned you.  Does the word irony mean anything to you Barry?  How many of the people you have denigrated here begin a thread by not so slyly telling the rest of us what assholes we are?  And how many of them then run away?  Do you really believe that your little diatribe contributes to the camaraderie you so miss from the good old days before the fractious loudmouths took over?  And just how was this thinly disguised tirade related to fly fishing? Generally speaking and despite your sophomoric conclusions, the majority here are not especially exclusionary.  However, I for one, would be delighted to make an exception in your case.  Note that there was very little gnashing of teeth and rending of clothing attendant upon your last departure.  One suspects there would be no more this time.  In the meantime here’s a little thought for you to mull over whenever you have a moment free from your self appointed labor of defending the moral high ground.  The world is full of people just like the evil folks you find here; there are even more like me!  And this is the only planet you’ll ever get to live on.  Welcome to Hell Barry! p.s.  You never did answer my question the last time your stuck your oh so superior head in the door.  You amy recall that we were discussing whether or not the native Americans should have their treaty rights revoked because nobody should have special privileges.  We ended with my asking you whether or not the playing field is level.  Well?  Is it? Note:  For those who found themselves in accord with Barry’s post.  There is little danger that he will respond to this post.  Last time he showed up he spewed forth his muddle headed position and then promptly disappeared when he was taken to task for it.  Presumably he will do so again.  It is not in his nature to sully himself by wading through the muck that he so freely strews about him.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is often said that ROFF is Darwinian, and that is certainly true, not from the "survival of the fittest" perspective that our frequent battles would imply; but because it is constantly evolving.   New folks come, some folks go, the subject of immediate interest keeps changing.   The camaraderie we share goes on.   It is unreasonable, however, to expect the camaraderie to exist without the multitude of off-topic subjects we discuss. I’m as guilty as most, I suppose, but its the exploration of views, interests, and personalities outside our common interest that brings us together as friends.   Without it, we’re just boring and homogenous. I’m not a great fly fisherman.   I don’t have a lot to share on that subject compared to many here.   But these are great guys, and I enjoy hanging out here and sharing jokes and lies in between my occasional substantive on-topic contributions.   I’ve made friends here, a phenomenon that still astounds me.   If I say something stupid, I expect to be called on it or justifiably ridiculed.   I expect intelligent and opinionated discussion on any subject as if I were in person with "live" fly fishermen.   My fly fishing friends are not friends because they think like me or act like me or have only fishing in common with me.   They are my friends because we learn from each other, enjoy our differences, and debate serious issues with civility.   That is why ROFF is such a great place, and why I think you’re wrong in your conclusions. It’s just that the rules are different here.   When tempers flare, and they surely do, the opportunities for resolution are different than in real life. You can’t punch anybody in the nose, you can’t raise your voice, and you can’t make them leave.   Shouting and name calling are really the only avenue available to let off steam.   Frequent offenders receive frequent criticism and may be ostracized.   It’s usenet, what else are you gonna do? New visitors, in my experience, are welcomed with open arms and helpful advice.   Those that stay become "one of us" and we’re glad for the company. Some newbies start out as rectums right from the start and receive a less than warm welcome.   So be it.   There are too many people here with too many diverse opinions to get along all the time.   There’s a lot of crap I don’t like and don’t bother with, but that doesn’t define the group for me. We are the forum that makes the discussion possible among fly fishermen, and that’s what I like. Joe F.

Thanks Joe. I don’t think, no, I know I couldn’t have said it better. Tight lines to all you opinionated rascals! Walt — Ezflyfish.com http://www.ezflyfish.com BRBG http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

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There was a time when I posted regularly to ROFF and read most of the posts. I enjoyed the camaraderie that we all shared because of our love of fly fishing and the positive nature of the newsgroup.  <snip

It is often said that ROFF is Darwinian, and that is certainly true, not from the "survival of the fittest" perspective that our frequent battles would imply; but because it is constantly evolving.   New folks come, some folks go, the subject of immediate interest keeps changing.   The camaraderie we share goes on.   It is unreasonable, however, to expect the camaraderie to exist without the multitude of off-topic subjects we discuss. I’m as guilty as most, I suppose, but its the exploration of views, interests, and personalities outside our common interest that brings us together as friends.   Without it, we’re just boring and homogenous. I’m not a great fly fisherman.   I don’t have a lot to share on that subject compared to many here.   But these are great guys, and I enjoy hanging out here and sharing jokes and lies in between my occasional substantive on-topic contributions.   I’ve made friends here, a phenomenon that still astounds me.   If I say something stupid, I expect to be called on it or justifiably ridiculed.   I expect intelligent and opinionated discussion on any subject as if I were in person with "live" fly fishermen.   My fly fishing friends are not friends because they think like me or act like me or have only fishing in common with me.   They are my friends because we learn from each other, enjoy our differences, and debate serious issues with civility.   That is why ROFF is such a great place, and why I think you’re wrong in your conclusions. It’s just that the rules are different here.   When tempers flare, and they surely do, the opportunities for resolution are different than in real life. You can’t punch anybody in the nose, you can’t raise your voice, and you can’t make them leave.   Shouting and name calling are really the only avenue available to let off steam.   Frequent offenders receive frequent criticism and may be ostracized.   It’s usenet, what else are you gonna do? New visitors, in my experience, are welcomed with open arms and helpful advice.   Those that stay become "one of us" and we’re glad for the company. Some newbies start out as rectums right from the start and receive a less than warm welcome.   So be it.   There are too many people here with too many diverse opinions to get along all the time.   There’s a lot of crap I don’t like and don’t bother with, but that doesn’t define the group for me. We are the forum that makes the discussion possible among fly fishermen, and that’s what I like. Joe F.

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tripper: <<Truely, here in ROFF, one man’s light is another’s lightening rod and we are all illumed by the interchange.

I was illumed by the interchange once. Cost me a bundle in repair bills… I got illumed in Subic Bay many years ago.  Pretty good, but it cost a helluva lot!  Risky too. Dave L.

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wayno complains: (snip for brevity) <<wayno; a man not to be toyed with wayno, did I ever tell you about my good friend Michael Era

Question:

Based on 47 years of fly fishing experience, this how to book will help you learn more simply and improve your fly fishing success. STALKING THE SABERTOOTH RAINBOW is now in over 80 stores in Oregon and Montana. It works!

Response:

Based on 47 years of fly fishing experience, this how to book will help you learn more simply and improve your fly fishing success. STALKING THE SABERTOOTH RAINBOW is now in over 80 stores in Oregon and Montana. It works!

Whassat? Hey, Walt, Did you get Marie an AOL account? — Tom Brown The Signal Group Wake Forest, NC Nine words never seen on a tombstone: " I wish I’d spent more time at the office."                                                                 …author unknown

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Based on 47 years of fly fishing experience, this how to book will help you learn more simply and improve your fly fishing success. STALKING THE SABERTOOTH RAINBOW is now in over 80 stores in Oregon and Montana. It works! Whassat?

That’s a post from someone who doesn’t know ezflyfishing’s URL. – Mu

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Question:

Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy

vendettas. "supply a service ?" You have a serious misconception of the usenet don_in_ottawa. I am incensed by the gall of your post. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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"supply a service ?" You have a serious misconception of the usenet don_in_ottawa. I am incensed by the gall of your post. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

  Go get him Timbo "release the hounds"

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy vendettas. "supply a service ?" You have a serious misconception of the usenet don_in_ottawa. I am incensed by the gall of your post. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

I agree with you Tim….if he wants service…I think he ought to send us some friggin’ money. TANSTAAFL  ..uhhh…US dollars please. –Wataugan Walt

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Damn, there are sharks in this stream! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy vendettas. "supply a service ?" You have a serious misconception of the usenet don_in_ottawa. I am incensed by the gall of your post. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…" I agree with you Tim….if he wants service…I think he ought to send us some friggin’ money. TANSTAAFL  ..uhhh…US dollars please. –Wataugan Walt

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Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy vendettas.

        oh, golly, don, thanks for putting us in our place.  let’s see:  do you think sage rods are better than orvis?  here’s the hot tip on the yellowstone this week:  tie on (with an improved clinch, of course) a adams in the morning, a royal wulff in the mid-day, and an elk hair caddis near dark.  btw, do you think 2mm waders are sufficient for late june on the au sable?  hey, have you got a load of the new 50 pocket vest from l.l. bean?  it holds all 350 patterns of bwo’s i’ve identified after a long weekend in the loving arms of a.k. best.  ad infinitum.  ad nauseum.  nighty night.         a. wayne harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Don writes: Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy vendettas. Welcome to ROFF, Don! Like it or not, that’s the way this newsgroup goes. You can sort through for the useful info, as it will be there. You are, however, asking for trouble with posts like this,as the rabid dogs will search you out. Tim Patterson may even post a web page about you, but I think his server is pretty well Ginked up….                                         Tom Littleton

______  ha!  that’s funny, Tim.  In fact,you’re not far off from our famous motto and in Tim Patterson’s case,  "Gink Keeps It Up" includes him.  Isn’t what your saying is, "Without me, Tim Patterson couldn’t make it?" hum?  You may have a point? I have a problem though, Tim.  I keep releasing him but he keeps coming back.  Possibly we should start a new group?  rec.outdoors.fishing.boomerang.suckers.tim (?) mercy.

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Yea, good idea!  Let’s start!!  You go first!! Uh.. hello?  You there Don? Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy vendettas.

-Mark/Particle Salad Particle Salad/Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad

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Ya I’m here but after many years of intermittent fly fishing on west coast and back east in Ontario and Quebec, I modestly don’t feel I have the expertese to significantly contribute  to the body of knowledge in the literature and what is commonly known. That being the case, I peruse this UG occasionally to see if anything of note has been said. I am well tackled (no pun intended) but am a very unaccomplished tyer. I am no purist and do not practice C & R, primarily because my friends and I have been doing our own stocking for many years in lakes which do not permit natural reproduction of either specs or rb. Rarely do I meet an opportunity to use dries and we normally use nymphs and streamers, of which we have developed a few local patterns. I have my own ideas which I do not inflict on others, except I cast right, real left and preach this to anybody who will listen. And I’ve been using George’s stuff for many years, which I suppose will bring more brick-bats….. Unfortunately, I don’t get out as much as I would like but hope springs eternal amd I have asperations of hooking one of the Ottawa River browns which are coming along nicely, so I am told. For those of you who do get out and into the back country, who love maps etc. and are interested in GPS as an aid to your travels, check out this URL where most of my time on line goes:           http://www.synapse.net/~dbartlett/gpsutm.htm This is NOT a commercial site. Don Bartlett Yea, good idea!  Let’s start!!  You go first!! Uh.. hello?  You there Don?

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Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy vendettas.

Response:

Don writes: Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy vendettas.

Welcome to ROFF, Don! Like it or not, that’s the way this newsgroup goes. You can sort through for the useful info, as it will be there. You are, however, asking for trouble with posts like this,as the rabid dogs will search you out. Tim Patterson may even post a web page about you, but I think his server is pretty well Ginked up….                                         Tom Littleton

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Question:

Does anyone know how good the fishing is NJ. Also where would be some of the better spots. I won’t be back there for another 10 months. I have taken it up here in Alaska and I don’t know what I would if I had to give up this new passion of mine. — Ralph Muro TwinTech "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms…disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes… Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." -Thomas Jefferson

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i live in nj and can tell you that there are some really hot spots,then i read your little proclamation about guns. having been shot by some idiot in the past i think i’ll keep the honey hole to myself, and keep you gun toting kooks away.

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Hey Mickey, I leave near NJ, in Philly, and Have a house in Browns Mills NJ.. What are some of the Hot spots. Please send some E-Mail. -Steve — I think a good product would be "Baby Duck Hat". It’s a fake baby duck, which you strap on top of your head. Then you go swimming underwater until you find a mommy duck and her babies, and you join them. Then, all of a sudden, you stand up out of the water and roar like Godzilla. Man, those ducks really take off! Also, Baby Duck Hat is good for parties. -Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -i live in nj and can tell you that there are some really hot spots,then i read your little proclamation about guns. having been shot by some idiot in the past i think i’ll keep the honey hole to myself, and keep you gun toting kooks away.

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Question:

Just bought a 17′ Boston Whaler, plan to do alot of Striper Fishing with it (Fly Fishing) in the Chesapeake Bay. What do I want in a Fish/Depth Finder? I’m open for suggestions; I’ve researched Humminbird, Eagle, Bottom Line, Apelco. Whats the best buy? Nick DelleDonne

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I’ve been very happy with my Apelco 530 with optional GPS receiver.  I purchased it with the thru-hull transducer and have good performance up to 20 MPH.  I have metered Rockcod down to 500 ft (slower speeds) and can see the bottom down to 1000 ft.  My only complaint is that at 3500 RPM I get a hydraulic sound from the transducer.  This maybe because I didn’t get it mounted straight with the boat, but it does not bother enough to try messing around with it.  The GPS works great too.  The unit is totally water proof but I have not verified this since it is mounted in a radio box. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just bought a 17′ Boston Whaler, plan to do alot of Striper Fishing with it (Fly Fishing) in the Chesapeake Bay. What do I want in a Fish/Depth Finder? I’m open for suggestions; I’ve researched Humminbird, Eagle, Bottom Line, Apelco. Whats the best buy? Nick DelleDonne

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- I’ve been very happy with my Apelco 530 with optional GPS receiver. – I purchased it with the thru-hull transducer and have good – performance up to 20 MPH.  I have metered Rockcod down to 500 ft – (slower speeds) and can see What happens after 20 MPH? ajc

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been very happy with my Apelco 530 with optional GPS receiver.  I purchased it with the thru-hull transducer and have good performance up to 20 MPH.  I have metered Rockcod down to 500 ft (slower speeds) and can see the bottom down to 1000 ft.  My only complaint is that at 3500 RPM I get a hydraulic sound from the transducer.  This maybe because I didn’t get it mounted straight with the boat, but it does not bother enough to try messing around with it.  The GPS works great too.  The unit is totally water proof but I have not verified this since it is mounted in a radio box. Just bought a 17′ Boston Whaler, plan to do alot of Striper Fishing with it (Fly Fishing) in the Chesapeake Bay. What do I want in a Fish/Depth Finder? I’m open for suggestions; I’ve researched Humminbird, Eagle, Bottom Line, Apelco. Whats the best buy? Nick DelleDonne Hook directly to the battery.  

Happy fishing!

Response:

I have a Bottom Line with sidefinder and find when I an fly fishing I can locate fish to the side of my boat out to 120 ft. not under the boat( I have yet to find a way to cast a fly 20 ft under the stern).

Response:

I have a Bottom Line with sidefinder and find when I an fly fishing I can locate fish to the side of my boat out to 120 ft. not under the boat( I have yet to find a way to cast a fly 20 ft under the stern).

I’ve been thinking about buying that one. Is the coverage of the Bottomline’s beam (less than 10 degrees, I’m told) enough to tell you what’s out there 30 to 100 feet from your boat? Does it do a good job telling you what’s in fairly shallow water — less than 10 feet deep, and 10 to 20 feet deep, for example? I wonder how it compares with the Eagle, say, with the side-viewing transducers. —

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Question:

Hi, I just wanted to relate a good experience I’ve recently had with Orvis. I bought my first Orvis rod back in 1982 and built about a dozen rods from Orvis blanks for myself and others during the 80’s and early 90’s. Back in the early 80’s, when graphite was just beginning to emerge as the dominant rod blank material, Orvis basically had a stronghold on the market and concepts like lifetime guarantees on flyrods were pretty much unheard of. But today, there is fierce competition for the flyfishing tackle dollar and most vendors offer lifetime guarantees on both pre-built rods *and* blanks. Since Orvis does not offer guarantees on blanks, however, most of the rods I’ve built lately have been from other vendors’ components. So, when my Orvis PM-10 8wt rod snapped during a cast a couple of months ago, I basically said to myself: "Well, it looks like I’m going have to buy a new 8wt blank – and it’s *not* going to be an Orvis!" Instead of just giving up, however, I had the San Francisco Orvis shop send the rod back to the factory in Manchester, VT for "evaluation" (which I assumed meant they would soon be sending me a bill for repairs) and in the meantime I started making plans to buy a GLoomis IMX blank at a good sale price to replace it. But, to my suprise, the people in Manchester came through and replaced the blank free of charge after evaluating the blank as being defective – which seemed only reasonable, since the rod had snapped in a segment which was not related to any of my rodbuilding work. So, just when I had all but written Orvis off as being out of step with companies like GLoomis, Redington, Sage, etc. they came through for me in a big way even though there was no formal guarantee requiring them to do so. Anyway, I don’t intend this as an unfettered endorsement of Orvis over other vendors (I’ll certainly continue to buy my blanks from a wide cross section of vendors). But, I just felt I should give a little credit where credit was due. Regards, Fred

Response:

 IMX blank at a good sale price to replace it. But, to my suprise, the people in Manchester came through and replaced the blank free of charge after evaluating the blank as being defective – which seemed only reasonable, since the rod had snapped in a segment which was not related to any of my rodbuilding work. So, just when I had all but written Orvis off as being out of step with companies like GLoomis, Redington, Sage, etc. they came through for me in a big way even though there was no formal guarantee requiring them to do so.

Hi Fred, I know some of the people on this group are not happy with Orvis but I’ve always found them to be a good company to do business with.  Maybe in the future I’ll change my mind but nothing has happened yet to encourage that. – Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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I ordered a pair of hippers from Orvis.  I was not happy with the fabric (I wanted canvas not nylon/rubber).   I returned them immediately to Orvis for a full refund.   A month later I received a notice of recall for the hippers.  There was a defect in the waders which caused them to rub on your leg.  Included in the letter was a prepaid mailing label.  I had already mailed mine back so the label did not help me. BUT, the letter also mentioned that a $125.00 gift certificate (for my time and effort) would be issued as soon as the waders were returned.  I immediatly called Orvis with my explaination and I received the gift certificate a few days later. Now thats CUSTOMER SERVICE. David Clemmons

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I ordered a pair of hippers from Orvis.  I was not happy with the fabric (I wanted canvas not nylon/rubber).   I returned them immediately to Orvis for a full refund. A month later I received a notice of recall for the hippers.  There was a defect in the waders which caused them to rub on your leg.  Included in the letter was a prepaid mailing label.  I had already mailed mine back so the label did not help me. BUT, the letter also mentioned that a $125.00 gift certificate (for my time and effort) would be issued as soon as the waders were returned.  I immediatly called Orvis with my explaination and I received the gift certificate a few days later. Now thats CUSTOMER SERVICE. David Clemmons

I’ve also had great luck with them regarding returns. I’m sure this note will be followed by endless sob stories, but last year I had a long thorn streamside tear my waders. I took them back, and although they were more than 12 months old, they were replaced at no cost to me. Dittos! Keith in Waterford, VA

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I also recently had an incredibly great experience with Orvis Customer Service.  While in Yellowstone in mid-September, one of my fishing partners broke the butt section of my little HLS 4 wt One-Ouncer.  I knew I had a 25-year guarantee, but I wondered what Orvis would do since they no longer make that rod.  I’ve tried their other one ounce rods and I don’t like them nearly as much as that old model. I returned the rod to the shop in Montana where I purchased it.  Since I carry my rods in a travel case while on the road, I didn’t have the case or sleeve. Low-and behold, 8 days after I dropped the rod off with the dealer, I got a big FedEx overnight package from Orvis.  It was a brand-new One Ouncer, complete with new case, and sleeve.  I was hoping I’d get a new butt section, but to get a whole new setup, and in such a short period of time was very impressive.  Needless to say, I’m extremely happy with their customer service. Bruce Jones

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