Question:

Larry I probably watched you fly over with the sling loaded. I was there in 67-68 most of my time was around Chu Chi, Long Benh, and Ben Wha. I left Siagon just two days before TET 1968 to come home. Got home and watched on TV places being blown up in Siagon that I had been at two days before. Jerry (also wondering where the time has gone) Springer

It just slipped by, one day at a time. Bob Reed www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com      (KIS Builders Site) KIS Cruiser in progress…Slow but steady progress…. "Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice, pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!" (M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)    

Response:

As he said lets start a war.:) I did not think that highway looked like the ones I remember in Vietnam in 1967 and 68. Jerry

Jerry:  Did the Vietnamese ever paint centerlines?  I think that highway is either in Mass. or in Wisconsin.  I forget…it’s been too long. See my post below.  I know I didn’t fool you older coots.  I was pulling the legs of the younger bucks. BWB

Response:

Here’s a shot just north of An Loc, north of Siagon in 1971 flying the hwy just inside the Cambodian Border.

Same shot is on your website…. http://www.angelfire.com/nv/rvpilot/Helicopter.html Caption reads: A shot going from Sprinfield Mass over to Albany New York in the summer of 1973. I’m flying in the left seat most of the time while everyone else sleeps although I’m not rated I’m having a blast. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I was working for the company in them thar days, flying up to the border (but not crossing) looking for NVA supplies coming from the north down the Ho Chi Minh trail, through Cambodia then back into South Viet Nam.  We were flying real high here….up in the nose-bleed section.  Actually this was a stupid move to be this high.  We were sitting ducks to any sporting young gook who was trying to make his mark and bring down a "Big Bird."  When we flew this high we always placed our service pistola under our genitalia to stop any spurious bulletos from removing our reproductive organals in one surgical swipe of a 25 grain piece of lead moving at 2000 fps vertically and through your seat. BWB

Response:

As he said lets start a war.:) I did not think that highway looked like the ones I remember in Vietnam in 1967 and 68. Jerry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s a shot just north of An Loc, north of Siagon in 1971 flying the hwy just inside the Cambodian Border. Same shot is on your website…. http://www.angelfire.com/nv/rvpilot/Helicopter.html Caption reads: A shot going from Sprinfield Mass over to Albany New York in the summer of 1973. I’m flying in the left seat most of the time while everyone else sleeps although I’m not rated I’m having a blast. I was working for the company in them thar days, flying up to the border (but not crossing) looking for NVA supplies coming from the north down the Ho Chi Minh trail, through Cambodia then back into South Viet Nam.  We were flying real high here….up in the nose-bleed section.  Actually this was a stupid move to be this high.  We were sitting ducks to any sporting young gook who was trying to make his mark and bring down a "Big Bird."  When we flew this high we always placed our service pistola under our genitalia to stop any spurious bulletos from removing our reproductive organals in one surgical swipe of a 25 grain piece of lead moving at 2000 fps vertically and through your seat. BWB

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Was in Vietnam 67-68,  in the south most of the time, with 2 different Companies. We had 3 chinooks, use for recovery standby. Our job was sling loading back to base shot down aircraft and some maintenance aircraft. As a crewchief we have to do all maintance work on the CH-47 also. Slept many nights on them. When gunship pilots were in Vienam after 2 months, a lot of them though they were cowboys that could not be shot down. A lot of dumb pilot errors. One of our 330th Chinooks, after 1 1/2 years of flight time, had recovered many hundreds of aircraft. Some day I will have to show a picture of the right side of the Ch-47, with all the painted emblems of the recovered aircraft. One time at Vung Tau, we are working on the aft rotors. We are right next to the refueling depot. A huey is refueling, Another huey set beside him to refuel also. Ah,  the 2 hueys well, they connected rotor blades.What a mess. One of my crew was working on the aft rotor, Jumped to the ground, thats a long jump.. What a mess of chopper parts all over. Came back from service and got my Comm helicopter rating and flew 6 different types. Now days, the cost per hour, is to high to fly them any more. So now, build  fix wing aircraft full time. Now 55 years old. Where did the last 34 Larry Fitzgerald

Larry I probably watched you fly over with the sling loaded. I was there in 67-68 most of my time was around Chu Chi, Long Benh, and Ben Wha. I left Siagon just two days before TET 1968 to come home. Got home and watched on TV places being blown up in Siagon that I had been at two days before. Jerry (also wondering where the time has gone) Springer

Response:

Bob, If it was not for the AFCS it would be a bear to fly. We practice with the AFCS in the off position just to keep in touch with the bird. When the back wheels are on the ground the AFCS is only working 3/4 gain. Once that switch opens the AFCS goes to full gain and if you are not ready you will be along for a ride. We practice two wheel taxi too. It is a difficult balance of controls. A good person does it all without the brakes. There is a sweet spot with the nose in the air. That is the spot where the aircraft will stay put. Raise the nose a little higher than that and you go backward, a little lower and you move forward. This technique is used to back-up without hovering. I think one of the most scariest things is to hover or taxi backward.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All valid points but just a little trivia for ya, The CH-47 has a stick position indicator that must be at zero on the ground. Anything other than that will cause it to do weird things. (Snip) As Artie Johnson used to say, "Verrrrrrrry interesting!"  The AFCS in those ships must be incredible. Back in the 1960s, New York Airways operated the tandem rotor BV-107.  I was an excited twelve year-old, onboard one day when we touched down at JFK on the rear wheels, then taxied toward the Pan Am terminal with the front wheel still off the ground and the ship at a decidedly nose-up attitude.  Neato! My dad flew the predecessor of the CH-47, the Piasecki HUP-1 and HUP-2 way back in the day.  He related that they flew crappy in forward flight, as each rotor wanted to be "lead."  It wasn’t until Frankie’s team developed a workable helipilot for them that they got it to fly reasonably well. I landed in a buddies front yard last weekend in an R-44.  He’d told me to come by and do that anytime I was out screwing around. But, I never thought about his damn dogs.  As soon as I landed he came out and so did his two dogs.  Well, as dogs do, they went nuts watching this goofy machine sitting in their poop zone and ran at me.  They also ran at my tail for some reason. It is strange that dogs run for the tail rotor, and I’ve had that experience too and cannot explain it.  Luckily, the t/r of a 206 on high skids is, as you know, higher than most dogs, so they’d have to jump up to get it.  So far, *that* has thankfully not happened yet.  But with my luck…

Response:

All valid points but just a little trivia for ya, The CH-47 has a stick position indicator that must be at zero on the ground. Anything other than that will cause it to do weird things.

(Snip) As Artie Johnson used to say, "Verrrrrrrry interesting!"  The AFCS in those ships must be incredible. Back in the 1960s, New York Airways operated the tandem rotor BV-107.  I was an excited twelve year-old, onboard one day when we touched down at JFK on the rear wheels, then taxied toward the Pan Am terminal with the front wheel still off the ground and the ship at a decidedly nose-up attitude.  Neato!   My dad flew the predecessor of the CH-47, the Piasecki HUP-1 and HUP-2 way back in the day.  He related that they flew crappy in forward flight, as each rotor wanted to be "lead."  It wasn’t until Frankie’s team developed a workable helipilot for them that they got it to fly reasonably well. I landed in a buddies front yard last weekend in an R-44.  He’d told me to come by and do that anytime I was out screwing around. But, I never thought about his damn dogs.  As soon as I landed he came out and so did his two dogs.  Well, as dogs do, they went nuts watching this goofy machine sitting in their poop zone and ran at me.  They also ran at my tail for some reason.

It is strange that dogs run for the tail rotor, and I’ve had that experience too and cannot explain it.  Luckily, the t/r of a 206 on high skids is, as you know, higher than most dogs, so they’d have to jump up to get it.  So far, *that* has thankfully not happened yet.  But with my luck…

Response:

Was in Vietnam 67-68,  in the south most of the time, with 2 different Companies. We had 3 chinooks, use for recovery standby. Our job was sling loading back to base shot down aircraft and some maintenance aircraft. As a crewchief we have to do all maintance work on the CH-47 also. Slept many nights on them. When gunship pilots were in Vienam after 2 months, a lot of them though they were cowboys that could not be shot down. A lot of dumb pilot errors. One of our 330th Chinooks, after 1 1/2 years of flight time, had recovered many hundreds of aircraft. Some day I will have to show a picture of the right side of the Ch-47, with all the painted emblems of the recovered aircraft. One time at Vung Tau, we are working on the aft rotors. We are right next to the refueling depot. A huey is refueling, Another huey set beside him to refuel also. Ah,  the 2 hueys well, they connected rotor blades.What a mess. One of my crew was working on the aft rotor, Jumped to the ground, thats a long jump.. What a mess of chopper parts all over. Came back from service and got my Comm helicopter rating and flew 6 different types. Now days, the cost per hour, is to high to fly them any more. So now, build  fix wing aircraft full time. Now 55 years old. Where did the last 34 Larry Fitzgerald

Response:

The problem with crouching or ducking when approaching a helicopter is that people who are looking down at their sneakers are not looking where they’re going.  To paraphrase Martha Stewart, this is "a bad thing."   People talk about how a rotor can dip low.  And yes, approaching (or departing) any helicopter when the blades are not up to at least idle rpm is dangerous. Do not walk under undriven rotor blades!  Simple as that. Once the ship is idling, there is *usually* no danger to a man in a normal walk.  Although having said that, there are some small helicopters on low skid gear where the rotor is not all that high off the ground to begin with, in which the "idle" speed can be quite low (e.g. Enstrom).  Of the larger machines, only the Sikorsky S-76 poses a real danger (because of the low landing gear and forward tilt of the mast), but even it can be mitigated if the pilots simply pull back far enough on the cyclic to keep the tip path plane out of harm’s way. In all my years (20+) of flying helicopters, I’ve never had a gust of wind cause my idling rotor to do anything hinky.  Never.  Not saying it’ll won’t or couldn’t happen – just hasn’t.  (Start-up and shut-down?  Different story.) When I fly Bells, I keep the cyclic a little bit aft to hold the tip path plane up.  But I’ve seen pilots who are not very diligent about this.  Cyclics tend to fall forward if left unattended. A lot depends on which ship we’re talking about…  But if you’re a passenger who’s approaching a LongRanger on high-skids.  Can you depend on the pilot to make sure he keeps the tip path plane up and out of your way?  Sadly, no.  You better crouch a little just to be on the safe side.  Even I do, most of the time.  But please, "crouching" does not mean staring at the ground in a low-crawl.  Keep your head up so you can see, okay?  No baseball caps, and no fishing poles held over your shoulder. And no walking around the back of the ship.  That kind of thing makes our hearts stop…and could easily make yours stop too – permanently. "If you don’t know where you’re going,  Any road will take you there."                                          George Harrison

Response:

Slick = UH-1C or D model configured to haul bullits in and bodies out.  The bullets were "preventive medicine" called "dustoff"  now. LOH Light observation helicopter.  Forerunner of the 500 series helo’s. Worked in Hunter Killer teams usually, the loach would draw fire and the gunships would finish the fire.  One neat thing to note,  If a minigun was fixed on a hardpoint you had to have foreward momentum in order to fire, else the recoil would play havoc with the helicopter. BTW the LOH has evolved and is still in the inventory as the AH-6 and MH-6 of 160th SOAR fame. Instead of one minigun they now have two and FFAR boot. Still aimed the same way tho…….high tech grease pencil. and I was born in 71, am i yung enough fer ya ? all the best Sean "still dumpin shell casings out of the ruck and picken HE shrapnel outta the kevlar" Trost

Response:

    First Squadron, Ninth Cav         "Head Hunters"  First Cavalry Division (Airmoble)          1968 – 1969 I flew as a LOH crewchief for about 9 months. Hueys the rest of the year. Shot down twice. Crashed twice due to stupid pilot stunts. Yeah, the first time I was shot at, it was kind of "exhilerating".  The next 10 months weren’t so much fun. My "official" body count was 83, but I think 20 or 25 would be closer to reality.  It’s a Viet Nam thing. You wouldn’t understand… SP5 Richard Lamb       DFC

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s a shot just north of An Loc, north of Siagon in 1971 flying the hwy just inside the Cambodian Border. I was working for the company in them thar days, flying up to the border (but not crossing) looking for NVA supplies coming from the north down the Ho Chi Minh trail, through Cambodia then back into South Viet Nam.  We were flying real high here….up in the nose-bleed section.  Actually this was a stupid move to be this high.  We were sitting ducks to any sporting young gook who was trying to make his mark and bring down a "Big Bird."  When we flew this high we always placed our service pistola under our genitalia to stop any spurious bulletos from removing our reproductive organals in one surgical swipe of a 25 grain piece of lead moving at 2000 fps vertically and through your seat. BWB

Bill, I seem to remember a Shorts Skyvan poping into our base (Phu Loi 69-70) every once in a while. Along with the usual single engine stuff. Bill Higdon

Response:

Bob, All valid points but just a little trivia for ya, The CH-47 has a stick position indicator that must be at zero on the ground. Anything other than that will cause it to do weird things. For example; A little forward cyclic while on the ground the computers will slowly drive the rotors forward until the back wheels come off the ground and the squat switch opens. Then the forward tilt will be so fast that you will not be able to react to it and the aircraft will flip on its back. A little too much aft on the ground; if the breaks are set it will raise the nose until the aft rotor strikes the ground. If the breaks are not set it will start rolling backward.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The problem with crouching or ducking when approaching a helicopter is that people who are looking down at their sneakers are not looking where they’re going.  To paraphrase Martha Stewart, this is "a bad thing." People talk about how a rotor can dip low.  And yes, approaching (or departing) any helicopter when the blades are not up to at least idle rpm is dangerous. Do not walk under undriven rotor blades!  Simple as that. Once the ship is idling, there is *usually* no danger to a man in a normal walk.  Although having said that, there are some small helicopters on low skid gear where the rotor is not all that high off the ground to begin with, in which the "idle" speed can be quite low (e.g. Enstrom).  Of the larger machines, only the Sikorsky S-76 poses a real danger (because of the low landing gear and forward tilt of the mast), but even it can be mitigated if the pilots simply pull back far enough on the cyclic to keep the tip path plane out of harm’s way. In all my years (20+) of flying helicopters, I’ve never had a gust of wind cause my idling rotor to do anything hinky.  Never.  Not saying it’ll won’t or couldn’t happen – just hasn’t.  (Start-up and shut-down?  Different story.) When I fly Bells, I keep the cyclic a little bit aft to hold the tip path plane up.  But I’ve seen pilots who are not very diligent about this.  Cyclics tend to fall forward if left unattended. A lot depends on which ship we’re talking about…  But if you’re a passenger who’s approaching a LongRanger on high-skids.  Can you depend on the pilot to make sure he keeps the tip path plane up and out of your way?  Sadly, no. You better crouch a little just to be on the safe side.  Even I do, most of the time.  But please, "crouching" does not mean staring at the ground in a low-crawl.  Keep your head up so you can see, okay?  No baseball caps, and no fishing poles held over your shoulder. And no walking around the back of the ship.  That kind of thing makes our hearts stop…and could easily make yours stop too – permanently. "If you don’t know where you’re going,  Any road will take you there."                                          George Harrison

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The rotor of a Huey is some 11 feet up. It can dip to six, and in a gust, lower than that. 1000 hours combat assault time and I still duck. You flew Hueys? Lemme guess…. WO-1 out of Ft. Rucker, then Air Cav in country. Who with? I remember at Fritsche Field being out on the main ramp sometimes when the Cav detachment would come in. I just loved that unique Huey thump-thump-thump in chorus. Everyone transitioned to hover at about 3 feet, then taxied single-file to the Cav ramp. Always reminded me of circus elephants walking head-to-tail behind each other. David Ah, yes, the days of the Air Cav!!!!  I’m sure this dude was a WO-1 out of Rucker….hell, who wasn’t in them thar days?  You spent your time there before you went out and killed gooks in gun ships or flew dust off in slicks. (any of you younger punks know what a slick is/was?  How about a loach? LOH?)

The kids may not but I remember. At Ft. Ord we’d go over to the Navy Post Graduate School (NPG) O Club since the Navy had the good sense in WWII to buy (appropriate?) the Del Monte Hotel and adjoining grounds. In the bar different units would paint their logos on the 3′x3′ ceiling tiles. The one right above my barstool was an OH-6 Loach hovering under a spreading oak. The inscription read, "Army Loaches do it under the trees!" And Pasture Dave…the UH-1 Huey didn’t go thump-thump-thump….it went WOP-WOP-WOP when you dropped collective pitch for the descent.

Spelling how a sound sounds is not the easiest thing in the world to do, but thump-thump-thump sounds a lot more like a Huey than does Wop-Wop-Wop. I’ll split the difference with you… we’ll call it Whump-Whump-Whump. David

Response:

and I was born in 71, am i yung enough fer ya ? all the best Sean "still dumpin shell casings out of the ruck and picken HE shrapnel outta the kevlar" Trost

At-a-boy Sean!  Nice commentary.  I should have mentioned that I also love the smell of High Explosive (HE) in the mornings. Ahhhh for them good ole days when we blew up the jungle just for kicks. BWB

Response:

A lot depends on which ship we’re talking about…  But if you’re a passenger who’s approaching a LongRanger on high-skids.  Can you depend on the pilot to make sure he keeps the tip path plane up and out of your way?  Sadly, no.  You better crouch a little just to be on the safe side.  Even I do, most of the time.  But please, "crouching" does not mean staring at the ground in a low-crawl.  Keep your head up so you can see, okay?  No baseball caps, and no fishing poles held over your shoulder.

Nice post Bob.  I tell all my pax to maintain eye contact with me from the front as they approach the helicopter and stop outside of the rotor tip radius until I wave them in.  Then walk toward me always maintaining eye contact until you are right up to the cockpit.  Same thing upon disembarking.  You can’t maintain eye contact, but simply walk STRAIGHT FORWARD from the cockpit until you clear the rotors and crouch over a bit while you do. And no walking around the back of the ship.  That kind of thing makes our hearts stop…and could easily make yours stop too – permanently.

I landed in a buddies front yard last weekend in an R-44.  He’d told me to come by and do that anytime I was out screwing around. But, I never thought about his damn dogs.  As soon as I landed he came out and so did his two dogs.  Well, as dogs do, they went nuts watching this goofy machine sitting in their poop zone and ran at me.  They also ran at my tail for some reason.  I think they were drawn to the tailrotor spinning and thought it was a toy to play with.  Luckily I was still spooled up to 104% when they did.  I pulled pitch and lifted off.  From a 5 foot hover I motioned with the back of my hand at the dogs and he got the message, then put them in the house so I could land. I worry more about the tail rotor than anything since I can’t see it. Even landing here at the house there are kids on dirt bikes that drive up all the time while I’m winding down.  I’ve decided to put a fence around the pad just to protect them.  And, as you said above.  If you want to stop the heart of any helicopter pilot, just walk around toward the back of the ship.  I got a belt of lightening through my spine just reading your sentence and thinking about it. BWB – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"If you don’t know where you’re going, Any road will take you there."                                         George Harrison

Response:

Here’s a shot just north of An Loc, north of Siagon in 1971 flying the hwy just inside the Cambodian Border. I was working for the company in them thar days, flying up to the border (but not crossing) looking for NVA supplies coming from the north down the Ho Chi Minh trail, through Cambodia then back into South Viet Nam.  We were flying real high here….up in the nose-bleed section.  Actually this was a stupid move to be this high.  We were sitting ducks to any sporting young gook who was trying to make his mark and bring down a "Big Bird."  When we flew this high we always placed our service pistola under our genitalia to stop any spurious bulletos from removing our reproductive organals in one surgical swipe of a 25 grain piece of lead moving at 2000 fps vertically and through your seat. BWB

Response:

Just like many here have stated. The rotorhead my be way up there but the tip-path-plan can get REALLY low. I fly the CH-47D Chinook. The rotorhead is up there some 25 feet but the tip-path-plan of the front rotor can easily dip to 4 feet or less. The AH-64 and AH-1 is way up there to but it is not uncommon in a radical control movement to take out the gunner in the front seat. When you are around a helicopter with all its moving pieces you should do two thing. Err on the safe side ALWAYS. Second just as important as the first, FOLLOW DIRECTIONS. If it is a helicopter with crewchiefs make sure they see you and you watch them ALWAYS. If it just a pilot, make absolutely sure he sees you before you come under the rotors.

Response:

yea… that’s who we need to get over hear from rec.aviation.rotorcraft. There was a good thread awhile back on this one and an "OSHA"/collegiate based attorney put up an entertaining battle over theoretical law and 2nd grade common sense.  That was a fun one!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Chris Woodhouse wrote … I have a question for you.  Why does everyone on tv bend over when they walk up to a helicopter with the rotors spinning?  I mean the rotors are way over their head so why duck? May not need to duck, but the rotors aren’t all that much higher. Back in September a Latin American pop star exited a copter & waved to his waiting fans — promptly losing several fingers to the rotors. Google for details.

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You flew Hueys? Lemme guess…. WO-1 out of Ft. Rucker, then Air Cav in country. Who with? I remember at Fritsche Field being out on the main ramp sometimes when the Cav detachment would come in. I just loved that unique Huey thump-thump-thump in chorus. Everyone transitioned to hover at about 3 feet, then taxied single-file to the Cav ramp. Always reminded me of circus elephants walking head-to-tail behind each other. David

Ah, yes, the days of the Air Cav!!!!  I’m sure this dude was a WO-1 out of Rucker….hell, who wasn’t in them thar days?  You spent your time there before you went out and killed gooks in gun ships or flew dust off in slicks. (any of you younger punks know what a slick is/was?  How about a loach? LOH?) And Pasture Dave…the UH-1 Huey didn’t go thump-thump-thump….it went WOP-WOP-WOP when you dropped collective pitch for the descent. I loved the Hueys.  Hell, I’ve got about 2000 hours logged just sleeping on the cot in the back. You speak about the transition from ETL (effective translational lift) into a hover.  What a roar that was in a UH-1.  The whole thing shook like the world was coming to an end.  Those days were a ball…taking enemy fire as you let down between the trees (chopping branches off) as your gunner was dusting the gooks with 50 cal rounds….the smell of napalm and death everywhere…it was exhilerating.   I was in Fire-3 (a HU-1H) one day when we took three bullets through the tail cone and the drive shaft to the tail rotor was severed.  It was a ball, we flew back to base at Pleiku at treetop level and about 120 knots then did a run on landing at about 60 knots into a rice paddy in water about 6 feet deep.  We didn’t give a shit.  We were half drunk and it was government equipment anyway…trashed the fucking  Huey.  That night back in my hooch we drank distilled pineapple juice that was about 100 proof and told lies about the day. I remember some guys had smuggled some whores in from the Qui Nhon who were real pretty and hid them in my buddies hooch next to mine.  They were giggling and laughing and drunk too.  We had some God damn fucking Major in there for inspections, but the other guys got him drunk early on and dished one of the whores to him to make him look the other way. One of my buddies (Rich Gilmore, call sign Gillous) took a few hard hits to his main rotor system in a loach and had to dump it in a hot zone.  I guess the gooks were everywhere.  Gillous called in the air boss for a naplm run and a couple F-4 Phantoms were handy.  They napalmed the whole area for about 15 minutes until he could use that 100 mph aluminum tape on his fucked up rotorblade to put the skin back together enough to fly it.  He spooled it up, pulled pitch and blew out of the hot LZ shaking like a God damn volcano or an earthquake at full roar.  The tape held half way back to Kontum but over Dak To she let go and he had to land agian for more field repair with 100 mph tape.  He took on fire the instant they got below treeline from some unfriendlies… it got worse when they landed, so…what do you do? What any red blooded WO-1 would do… more air support by the Air Farce to burn down the jungle and any unsuspecting shooting gook. Once the gooks were creamated and he’d rotor-braked the thing to a stop he jumped on a half cut down tree to grab the blade with the torn skin…three wraps of tape around it and he was back in spooling up the turbine before Charlie woke up and started firing again. Like the Air Cav that he was, he was off once again, roaring south to our base just north of Kontum…and he made it because he was drinking "hot" pinapple juice with us that night and telling us how brave he was. And to the guy who asked the quesiton about ducking as you walk up to the cockpit.  Jesus, you better duck.  A gust or a pilot simply scratching his balls might hit the cyclic (Stick to you fixed wing assholes), deflect it full left, right or forward and the rotor tips might even hit the damn ground.  The smart guy not only ducks when getting close to one of these contraptions, he crawls on the ground to mount one…especially in combat because the pilot might be drunk as hell to begin with. BWB

Response:

Chris Woodhouse wrote … I have a question for you.  Why does everyone on tv bend over when they walk up to a helicopter with the rotors spinning?  I mean the rotors are way over their head so why duck?

May not need to duck, but the rotors aren’t all that much higher. Back in September a Latin American pop star exited a copter & waved to his waiting fans — promptly losing several fingers to the rotors. Google for details.

Response:

The rotor of a Huey is some 11 feet up. It can dip to six, and in a gust, lower than that. 1000 hours combat assault time and I still duck.

You flew Hueys? Lemme guess…. WO-1 out of Ft. Rucker, then Air Cav in country. Who with? I remember at Fritsche Field being out on the main ramp sometimes when the Cav detachment would come in. I just loved that unique Huey thump-thump-thump in chorus. Everyone transitioned to hover at about 3 feet, then taxied single-file to the Cav ramp. Always reminded me of circus elephants walking head-to-tail behind each other. David

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 [Image]

I have a question for you.  Why does everyone on tv bend over when they walk up to a helicopter with the rotors spinning?  I mean the rotors are way over their head so why duck? — Chris

Response:

I have a question for you.  Why does everyone on tv bend over when they walk up to a helicopter with the rotors spinning?  I mean the rotors are way over their head so why duck?

Speak for yourself, Shorty!  :-) Seriously, I think it is both a natural reaction, and a wise one.  When I was in the Army, we constantly lost soldiers to main rotor strikes.  Not as common as problems with people running into the rear rotor, but at least once a year.  If the ground is uneven, or something strange causes the blades to flex, they can take the head off of a six foot individual.  A Blackhawk is a big bird, but even though the mast is way up over head, that doesn’t mean the tips are not closer than 6 feet to the ground where you are walking. Eric

Response:

The rotor of a Huey is some 11 feet up. It can dip to six, and in a gust, lower than that. 1000 hours combat assault time and I still duck. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a question for you.  Why does everyone on tv bend over when they walk up to a helicopter with the rotors spinning?  I mean the rotors are way over their head so why duck? Speak for yourself, Shorty!  :-) Seriously, I think it is both a natural reaction, and a wise one.  When I was in the Army, we constantly lost soldiers to main rotor strikes.  Not as common as problems with people running into the rear rotor, but at least once a year.  If the ground is uneven, or something strange causes the blades to flex, they can take the head off of a six foot individual.  A Blackhawk is a big bird, but even though the mast is way up over head, that doesn’t mean the tips are not closer than 6 feet to the ground where you are walking. Eric

Response:

Question:

The raising of children cannot be delegated to day-care, nannies and the boob-tube.  It requires constant attention and care.  The economic reality for many families these days is that both parents work.  It is indeed a complex and difficult problem.

    It is a problem that is difficult and not a single simple answer will do. Are the parents or the child to blame? In some cases the parents are to blame but, not in all, there are cases where the kids are plain rebellious and the parents are wonderful.      It is a sad state of affairs that the TV or video games are the surrogate parents. Many homes where there is two parents consist of both of them working long hours to provide extra. I also understand where some families choose to have a little less extras and have a parent around during the children’s years at home. I guess it breaks down to what is the most important.     Thanks I will step off the box and get back into the background.. D.S.

Response:

   I really do feel sorry for the parents though because kids these days dont talk with parents like they used to. I honestly think it would be fair

I don’t believe that it is the kids that are the cause of this… -Eric

Response:

The raising of children cannot be delegated to day-care, nannies and the boob-tube.  It requires constant attention and care.  The economic reality for many families these days is that both parents work.  It is indeed a complex and difficult problem.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    I really do feel sorry for the parents though because kids these days dont talk with parents like they used to. I honestly think it would be fair I don’t believe that it is the kids that are the cause of this… -Eric

Response:

Why?  Because one kid broke a couple windows with an airplane? Mike MU-2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Raise the minimum age for getting PPL to 21. Personally, I have been very happy with the teens I have seen flying. Most of them are earnest types who work very hard. I have a tough time picturing any of the teens that I have instructed doing any of the crazy stunts you hear about. Nevertheless, I fear that Rick Cremer is correct in predicting that there will be stricter age limits on learning to fly. It will be a sad day when these are enacted. I might not have as much sympathy for the parents as you, however. Did these people not have a clue that their kid was a UBL fan? What kind of parents were they? What kinds of values were they teaching their son, anyway? And if he was rejecting reasonable standards and values, why the heck were they letting him take flying lessons? | Ok the deal is everyone needs to get along and stop arguing. The bottom line | is one person screwed up and now everyone is disagreeing. The same thing | happened sept 11th, the only difference is we all agreed because we all | wanted to fly, now the adults don’t care what happens to the kids because | the adults aren’t at risk here. | | -one kid screwed up, he’s an idiot, that’s the bottom line. Sure he may have | had problems but he’s screwed us all over and no I don’t care that he died | and no im not being immature by not caring. While I really dont care about | him I do feel sorry for his parents, I cant imagine my parents if I did | something like that. Suicide is not the answer to solving your problems. I’m | not the problem here, I don’t make fun of people, I don’t put people down | (unless they start it), I talk to anyone no matter what others think. I give | everyone a fair chance no matter what others think until they give me a | reason to do otherwise. Now if everyone would do the same this may not have | happened. | -Some teens are mature (I would say most teens that fly are, at least it | shows they have the devotion to do something) and some teens are immature. | -Some adults are mature, some are immature. | -sure they can raise the soloing age to 21 or even 21 before you start | training but what happens when some 40 y/o man does the same thing? | -We all need to stick together because we are all at risk for losing what we | love. | -The best thing to do is hope that this time next year the media is focused | on some other pointless topic such as high school sports games! | -Dont make me feel like im not wanted here, I love reading the topics in | this group and love posting my questions but I dont like reading about how | people think I shouldnt be flying. | | |

Response:

It’s on-going, and please don’t attack me, as it would appear most are getting attacked when they voice their opinions now…

We’re with you, Casey.  As a teenage pilot, you’re living the dream I had to wait another 20 years to achieve, and I tip my hat to you. This isn’t an age thing — it’s a mental health issue, and should be treated as such. — Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Warrior N33431

Response:

    I really do feel sorry for the parents though because kids these days dont talk with parents like they used to. I honestly think it would be fair to say my parents are great parents yet if I was to do something like this they would never know until its to late. My parents love me, care about me, and are great but I still, along with most teens, try to push them away. When they talk to me I dont want to talk to them, its none of their business, etc. Not only that but most parents have nothing in common with their kids. For instance my dad likes baseball cards, being outside, and fishing. My mom likes dolls, shopping, and being outside. I like computers and flying. I hate doing everything they do and they pretty much hate everything I do except my mom will fly occasionally. Sure I try to do what they like to do sometimes to make them happy, after all they are my parents and Im their last "baby" and soon ill be leaving home to. When I get home I eat and goto my room and come out when its time to leave, its the way kids do. I personally think the parents are still great parents for not knowing, it shows they trusted their kid. Unfortunatly this kid couldnt be trusted and I dont know the family history, only what ive heard. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Personally, I have been very happy with the teens I have seen flying. Most of them are earnest types who work very hard. I have a tough time picturing any of the teens that I have instructed doing any of the crazy stunts you hear about. Nevertheless, I fear that Rick Cremer is correct in predicting that there will be stricter age limits on learning to fly. It will be a sad day when these are enacted. I might not have as much sympathy for the parents as you, however. Did these people not have a clue that their kid was a UBL fan? What kind of parents were they? What kinds of values were they teaching their son, anyway? And if he was rejecting reasonable standards and values, why the heck were they letting him take flying lessons? | Ok the deal is everyone needs to get along and stop arguing. The bottom line | is one person screwed up and now everyone is disagreeing. The same thing | happened sept 11th, the only difference is we all agreed because we all | wanted to fly, now the adults don’t care what happens to the kids because | the adults aren’t at risk here. | | -one kid screwed up, he’s an idiot, that’s the bottom line. Sure he may have | had problems but he’s screwed us all over and no I don’t care that he died | and no im not being immature by not caring. While I really dont care about | him I do feel sorry for his parents, I cant imagine my parents if I did | something like that. Suicide is not the answer to solving your problems. I’m | not the problem here, I don’t make fun of people, I don’t put people down | (unless they start it), I talk to anyone no matter what others think. I give | everyone a fair chance no matter what others think until they give me a | reason to do otherwise. Now if everyone would do the same this may not have | happened. | -Some teens are mature (I would say most teens that fly are, at least it | shows they have the devotion to do something) and some teens are immature. | -Some adults are mature, some are immature. | -sure they can raise the soloing age to 21 or even 21 before you start | training but what happens when some 40 y/o man does the same thing? | -We all need to stick together because we are all at risk for losing what we | love. | -The best thing to do is hope that this time next year the media is focused | on some other pointless topic such as high school sports games! | -Dont make me feel like im not wanted here, I love reading the topics in | this group and love posting my questions but I dont like reading about how | people think I shouldnt be flying. | | |

Response:

I feel it man, I feel it…Flying is all I have (well other than my semi-good looks ) -J

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just my opinion, and I support everything said by CJ in this thread… I am 17 and a pilot like Zach. If my right to fly was taken away, I would probably just sit at home and have nothing to do. You see, flying has GIVEN me my maturity… it has shown me how to be responsible with earning every dime it takes to fly (I work at a grocery store) and also the responsibility in the air. For us teens that do take flying very seriously, we’re just as good as the 40 y/o pilot. It’s sad that this kid died, but that’s no reason to take away my right to fly and share my dream with others. Last year, 4 of my friends died in a car accident. Should I not be able to drive? It’s on-going, and please don’t attack me, as it would appear most are getting attacked when they voice their opinions now… Clear Skies- Casey Hansen Iowa, USA PP-ASEL   -Dont make me feel like im not wanted here, I love reading the topics in this group and love posting my questions but I dont like reading about how people think I shouldnt be flying. Take it easy, Zach; the regulars know you’re alright. Ignore the trollers. — Dan N9387D at BFM

Response:

Ironic coincidence is that one of the recent issues of AOPA Pilot (the one with the 2001 Bonanza on the cover) shows a 16 year old CAP cadet shaking hands with her instructor after soloing both gliders and a 172 on her 16th birthday. David Reinhart – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does that mean that my daughter shouldn’t be able to get her glider pilot license or that air cadet’s should be abolished? Sounds like a politicians knee jerk reaction to me. I think that 15 year old kids shouldn’t be allowed to fly airplanes into buildings and that we as a society should take "reasonable" precautions to prevent it from happening. Enough said. Willy Raise the minimum age for getting PPL to 21. Personally, I have been very happy with the teens I have seen flying. Most of them are earnest types who work very hard. I have a tough time picturing any of the teens that I have instructed doing any of the crazy stunts you hear about. Nevertheless, I fear that Rick Cremer is correct in predicting that there will be stricter age limits on learning to fly. It will be a sad day when these are enacted. I might not have as much sympathy for the parents as you, however. Did these people not have a clue that their kid was a UBL fan? What kind of parents were they? What kinds of values were they teaching their son, anyway? And if he was rejecting reasonable standards and values, why the heck were they letting him take flying lessons? | Ok the deal is everyone needs to get along and stop arguing. The bottom line | is one person screwed up and now everyone is disagreeing. The same thing | happened sept 11th, the only difference is we all agreed because we all | wanted to fly, now the adults don’t care what happens to the kids because | the adults aren’t at risk here. | | -one kid screwed up, he’s an idiot, that’s the bottom line. Sure he may have | had problems but he’s screwed us all over and no I don’t care that he died | and no im not being immature by not caring. While I really dont care about | him I do feel sorry for his parents, I cant imagine my parents if I did | something like that. Suicide is not the answer to solving your problems. I’m | not the problem here, I don’t make fun of people, I don’t put people down | (unless they start it), I talk to anyone no matter what others think. I give | everyone a fair chance no matter what others think until they give me a | reason to do otherwise. Now if everyone would do the same this may not have | happened. | -Some teens are mature (I would say most teens that fly are, at least it | shows they have the devotion to do something) and some teens are immature. | -Some adults are mature, some are immature. | -sure they can raise the soloing age to 21 or even 21 before you start | training but what happens when some 40 y/o man does the same thing? | -We all need to stick together because we are all at risk for losing what we | love. | -The best thing to do is hope that this time next year the media is focused | on some other pointless topic such as high school sports games! | -Dont make me feel like im not wanted here, I love reading the topics in | this group and love posting my questions but I dont like reading about how | people think I shouldnt be flying. | | |

Response:

Does that mean that my daughter shouldn’t be able to get her glider pilot license or that air cadet’s should be abolished? Sounds like a politicians knee jerk reaction to me. I think that 15 year old kids shouldn’t be allowed to fly airplanes into buildings and that we as a society should take "reasonable" precautions to prevent it from happening. Enough said. Willy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Raise the minimum age for getting PPL to 21. Personally, I have been very happy with the teens I have seen flying. Most of them are earnest types who work very hard. I have a tough time picturing any of the teens that I have instructed doing any of the crazy stunts you hear about. Nevertheless, I fear that Rick Cremer is correct in predicting that there will be stricter age limits on learning to fly. It will be a sad day when these are enacted. I might not have as much sympathy for the parents as you, however. Did these people not have a clue that their kid was a UBL fan? What kind of parents were they? What kinds of values were they teaching their son, anyway? And if he was rejecting reasonable standards and values, why the heck were they letting him take flying lessons? | Ok the deal is everyone needs to get along and stop arguing. The bottom line | is one person screwed up and now everyone is disagreeing. The same thing | happened sept 11th, the only difference is we all agreed because we all | wanted to fly, now the adults don’t care what happens to the kids because | the adults aren’t at risk here. | | -one kid screwed up, he’s an idiot, that’s the bottom line. Sure he may have | had problems but he’s screwed us all over and no I don’t care that he died | and no im not being immature by not caring. While I really dont care about | him I do feel sorry for his parents, I cant imagine my parents if I did | something like that. Suicide is not the answer to solving your problems. I’m | not the problem here, I don’t make fun of people, I don’t put people down | (unless they start it), I talk to anyone no matter what others think. I give | everyone a fair chance no matter what others think until they give me a | reason to do otherwise. Now if everyone would do the same this may not have | happened. | -Some teens are mature (I would say most teens that fly are, at least it | shows they have the devotion to do something) and some teens are immature. | -Some adults are mature, some are immature. | -sure they can raise the soloing age to 21 or even 21 before you start | training but what happens when some 40 y/o man does the same thing? | -We all need to stick together because we are all at risk for losing what we | love. | -The best thing to do is hope that this time next year the media is focused | on some other pointless topic such as high school sports games! | -Dont make me feel like im not wanted here, I love reading the topics in | this group and love posting my questions but I dont like reading about how | people think I shouldnt be flying. | | |

Response:

Just my opinion, and I support everything said by CJ in this thread… I am 17 and a pilot like Zach. If my right to fly was taken away, I would probably just sit at home and have nothing to do. You see, flying has GIVEN me my maturity… it has shown me how to be responsible with earning every dime it takes to fly (I work at a grocery store) and also the responsibility in the air. For us teens that do take flying very seriously, we’re just as good as the 40 y/o pilot. It’s sad that this kid died, but that’s no reason to take away my right to fly and share my dream with others. Last year, 4 of my friends died in a car accident. Should I not be able to drive? It’s on-going, and please don’t attack me, as it would appear most are getting attacked when they voice their opinions now… Clear Skies- Casey Hansen Iowa, USA PP-ASEL

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   -Dont make me feel like im not wanted here, I love reading the topics in this group and love posting my questions but I dont like reading about how people think I shouldnt be flying. Take it easy, Zach; the regulars know you’re alright. Ignore the trollers. — Dan N9387D at BFM

Response:

Why, because one goofball killed himself?  What about all the goofballs of all ages that kill themselves in cars everyday?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Raise the minimum age for getting PPL to 21. Personally, I have been very happy with the teens I have seen flying. Most of them are earnest types who work very hard. I have a tough time picturing any of the teens that I have instructed doing any of the crazy stunts you hear about. Nevertheless, I fear that Rick Cremer is correct in predicting that there will be stricter age limits on learning to fly. It will be a sad day when these are enacted. I might not have as much sympathy for the parents as you, however. Did these people not have a clue that their kid was a UBL fan? What kind of parents were they? What kinds of values were they teaching their son, anyway? And if he was rejecting reasonable standards and values, why the heck were they letting him take flying lessons? | Ok the deal is everyone needs to get along and stop arguing. The bottom line | is one person screwed up and now everyone is disagreeing. The same thing | happened sept 11th, the only difference is we all agreed because we all | wanted to fly, now the adults don’t care what happens to the kids because | the adults aren’t at risk here. | | -one kid screwed up, he’s an idiot, that’s the bottom line. Sure he may have | had problems but he’s screwed us all over and no I don’t care that he died | and no im not being immature by not caring. While I really dont care about | him I do feel sorry for his parents, I cant imagine my parents if I did | something like that. Suicide is not the answer to solving your problems. I’m | not the problem here, I don’t make fun of people, I don’t put people down | (unless they start it), I talk to anyone no matter what others think. I give | everyone a fair chance no matter what others think until they give me a | reason to do otherwise. Now if everyone would do the same this may not have | happened. | -Some teens are mature (I would say most teens that fly are, at least it | shows they have the devotion to do something) and some teens are immature. | -Some adults are mature, some are immature. | -sure they can raise the soloing age to 21 or even 21 before you start | training but what happens when some 40 y/o man does the same thing? | -We all need to stick together because we are all at risk for losing what we | love. | -The best thing to do is hope that this time next year the media is focused | on some other pointless topic such as high school sports games! | -Dont make me feel like im not wanted here, I love reading the topics in | this group and love posting my questions but I dont like reading about how | people think I shouldnt be flying. | | |

Response:

I agree… -J – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Personally, I have been very happy with the teens I have seen flying. Most of them are earnest types who work very hard. I have a tough time picturing any of the teens that I have instructed doing any of the crazy stunts you hear about. Nevertheless, I fear that Rick Cremer is correct in predicting that there will be stricter age limits on learning to fly. It will be a sad day when these are enacted. I might not have as much sympathy for the parents as you, however. Did these people not have a clue that their kid was a UBL fan? What kind of parents were they? What kinds of values were they teaching their son, anyway? And if he was rejecting reasonable standards and values, why the heck were they letting him take flying lessons? | Ok the deal is everyone needs to get along and stop arguing. The bottom line | is one person screwed up and now everyone is disagreeing. The same thing | happened sept 11th, the only difference is we all agreed because we all | wanted to fly, now the adults don’t care what happens to the kids because | the adults aren’t at risk here. | | -one kid screwed up, he’s an idiot, that’s the bottom line. Sure he may have | had problems but he’s screwed us all over and no I don’t care that he died | and no im not being immature by not caring. While I really dont care about | him I do feel sorry for his parents, I cant imagine my parents if I did | something like that. Suicide is not the answer to solving your problems. I’m | not the problem here, I don’t make fun of people, I don’t put people down | (unless they start it), I talk to anyone no matter what others think. I give | everyone a fair chance no matter what others think until they give me a | reason to do otherwise. Now if everyone would do the same this may not have | happened. | -Some teens are mature (I would say most teens that fly are, at least it | shows they have the devotion to do something) and some teens are immature. | -Some adults are mature, some are immature. | -sure they can raise the soloing age to 21 or even 21 before you start | training but what happens when some 40 y/o man does the same thing? | -We all need to stick together because we are all at risk for losing what we | love. | -The best thing to do is hope that this time next year the media is focused | on some other pointless topic such as high school sports games! | -Dont make me feel like im not wanted here, I love reading the topics in | this group and love posting my questions but I dont like reading about how | people think I shouldnt be flying. | | |

Response:

  -Dont make me feel like im not wanted here, I love reading the topics in this group and love posting my questions but I dont like reading about how people think I shouldnt be flying.

Take it easy, Zach; the regulars know you’re alright. Ignore the trollers. — Dan N9387D at BFM

Response:

Raise the minimum age for getting PPL to 21. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Personally, I have been very happy with the teens I have seen flying. Most of them are earnest types who work very hard. I have a tough time picturing any of the teens that I have instructed doing any of the crazy stunts you hear about. Nevertheless, I fear that Rick Cremer is correct in predicting that there will be stricter age limits on learning to fly. It will be a sad day when these are enacted. I might not have as much sympathy for the parents as you, however. Did these people not have a clue that their kid was a UBL fan? What kind of parents were they? What kinds of values were they teaching their son, anyway? And if he was rejecting reasonable standards and values, why the heck were they letting him take flying lessons? | Ok the deal is everyone needs to get along and stop arguing. The bottom line | is one person screwed up and now everyone is disagreeing. The same thing | happened sept 11th, the only difference is we all agreed because we all | wanted to fly, now the adults don’t care what happens to the kids because | the adults aren’t at risk here. | | -one kid screwed up, he’s an idiot, that’s the bottom line. Sure he may have | had problems but he’s screwed us all over and no I don’t care that he died | and no im not being immature by not caring. While I really dont care about | him I do feel sorry for his parents, I cant imagine my parents if I did | something like that. Suicide is not the answer to solving your problems. I’m | not the problem here, I don’t make fun of people, I don’t put people down | (unless they start it), I talk to anyone no matter what others think. I give | everyone a fair chance no matter what others think until they give me a | reason to do otherwise. Now if everyone would do the same this may not have | happened. | -Some teens are mature (I would say most teens that fly are, at least it | shows they have the devotion to do something) and some teens are immature. | -Some adults are mature, some are immature. | -sure they can raise the soloing age to 21 or even 21 before you start | training but what happens when some 40 y/o man does the same thing? | -We all need to stick together because we are all at risk for losing what we | love. | -The best thing to do is hope that this time next year the media is focused | on some other pointless topic such as high school sports games! | -Dont make me feel like im not wanted here, I love reading the topics in | this group and love posting my questions but I dont like reading about how | people think I shouldnt be flying. | | |

Response:

Personally, I have been very happy with the teens I have seen flying. Most of them are earnest types who work very hard. I have a tough time picturing any of the teens that I have instructed doing any of the crazy stunts you hear about. Nevertheless, I fear that Rick Cremer is correct in predicting that there will be stricter age limits on learning to fly. It will be a sad day when these are enacted. I might not have as much sympathy for the parents as you, however. Did these people not have a clue that their kid was a UBL fan? What kind of parents were they? What kinds of values were they teaching their son, anyway? And if he was rejecting reasonable standards and values, why the heck were they letting him take flying lessons?

| Ok the deal is everyone needs to get along and stop arguing. The bottom line | is one person screwed up and now everyone is disagreeing. The same thing | happened sept 11th, the only difference is we all agreed because we all | wanted to fly, now the adults don’t care what happens to the kids because | the adults aren’t at risk here. | | -one kid screwed up, he’s an idiot, that’s the bottom line. Sure he may have | had problems but he’s screwed us all over and no I don’t care that he died | and no im not being immature by not caring. While I really dont care about | him I do feel sorry for his parents, I cant imagine my parents if I did | something like that. Suicide is not the answer to solving your problems. I’m | not the problem here, I don’t make fun of people, I don’t put people down | (unless they start it), I talk to anyone no matter what others think. I give | everyone a fair chance no matter what others think until they give me a | reason to do otherwise. Now if everyone would do the same this may not have | happened. | -Some teens are mature (I would say most teens that fly are, at least it | shows they have the devotion to do something) and some teens are immature. | -Some adults are mature, some are immature. | -sure they can raise the soloing age to 21 or even 21 before you start | training but what happens when some 40 y/o man does the same thing? | -We all need to stick together because we are all at risk for losing what we | love. | -The best thing to do is hope that this time next year the media is focused | on some other pointless topic such as high school sports games! | -Dont make me feel like im not wanted here, I love reading the topics in | this group and love posting my questions but I dont like reading about how | people think I shouldnt be flying. | | |

Response:

Ok the deal is everyone needs to get along and stop arguing. The bottom line is one person screwed up and now everyone is disagreeing. The same thing happened sept 11th, the only difference is we all agreed because we all wanted to fly, now the adults don’t care what happens to the kids because the adults aren’t at risk here. -one kid screwed up, he’s an idiot, that’s the bottom line. Sure he may have had problems but he’s screwed us all over and no I don’t care that he died and no im not being immature by not caring. While I really dont care about him I do feel sorry for his parents, I cant imagine my parents if I did something like that. Suicide is not the answer to solving your problems. I’m not the problem here, I don’t make fun of people, I don’t put people down (unless they start it), I talk to anyone no matter what others think. I give everyone a fair chance no matter what others think until they give me a reason to do otherwise. Now if everyone would do the same this may not have happened. -Some teens are mature (I would say most teens that fly are, at least it shows they have the devotion to do something) and some teens are immature. -Some adults are mature, some are immature. -sure they can raise the soloing age to 21 or even 21 before you start training but what happens when some 40 y/o man does the same thing? -We all need to stick together because we are all at risk for losing what we love. -The best thing to do is hope that this time next year the media is focused on some other pointless topic such as high school sports games! -Dont make me feel like im not wanted here, I love reading the topics in this group and love posting my questions but I dont like reading about how people think I shouldnt be flying.

Response:

Question:

Looking for Evil Colorful Nymphs Flash in the net.. Anyone have some ideas ? Thanks… Phil..

Response:

Looking for Evil Colorful Nymphs Flash in the net.. Anyone have some ideas ? Thanks… Phil..

What, we didn’t ignore you enough the first time you posted this question? Kavin

Response:

Looking for Evil Colorful Nymphs Flash in the net.. Anyone have some ideas ? Thanks… Phil..

Hey, Phil.  I started on a CB550 but also owned a 1998 Sportster.  Sold it to finance becoming certified to teach art in Pennsylvania.  I’d rather have the Sporty back though.  Getting a f-t art teaching position is durn difficult.  I own an old 650 now which is fun, but not an H-D. Uh, *on topic*, though, I’d recommend you visit Yahoo! and just do a search for Tattoos. That’s going to be needle-in-a-haystack, but it may be the only way. Whatever you do, don’t type _nymph flash_ unless you enjoy fly fishing, okay? Good luck. — Curt

Response:

I scribbled: [snip] Whatever you do, don’t type _nymph flash_ unless you enjoy fly fishing, okay? Good luck.

Hey, check out: http://www.madeinthephilippines.com/hermesalegre/ http://hsa.brown.edu/~maicar/NYMPHS.html http://hsa.brown.edu/~maicar/000Free/000NYMPHS/source/14.html http://www.tanglewave.com/nymphs.html http://www.nymphart.com/ There’s always Playboy magazine as well, Phil. — Curt 2 tattoos, 2 rings… and a bunch o’ search engines!

Response:

Looking for Evil Colorful Nymphs Flash in the net.. Anyone have some ideas ? Thanks… Phil..

Try a search for Dave Bolt, he may do what you are looking for…. TQ

Response:

"Help, I’ve scribbled and I can’t put my little golfer’s pencil down!" I scribbled:

[snip] Search for Boris Vallejo and Julie Bell.   Here’s one link: http://www.imaginistix.com/searchprocess.cfm — Curt (Okay, that’s it for Phil.  No more.  I promise.)

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Try a search for Dave Bolt, he may do what you are looking for….

Yeah, http://www.artspace.com/ – Bollt has some *really* cool dark/wicked faeries and nymphs etc. GOOD stuff. I think I own all of his stuff, well, except the set of "butterflys and moths" or whatever that is. All his mythical/fantasy stuff is top notch, and great "sellers" at the shop. Cat — — oO$8$Oo.,oo,.oO$$88$Oo 8$:`   .8$$8.  ’;8$’ 8$.   ,8$  $8,  :8$ `8$$..8$o..o$8..;8$ http://www.catbones.com/

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Question:

I was driving back to Montreal on the Eastern Townships autoroute and crossed the Yamaska River.  My brief glimpse of it was pretty favourable so I looked it up on the map.  Are there fish in it, eg north of Farnham, or is it one of the rivers polluted by runoff from adjacent farms?  Where are access points for fly fishing, i.e. places to park?

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I was driving back to Montreal on the Eastern Townships autoroute and crossed the Yamaska River.  My brief glimpse of it was pretty favourable so I looked it up on the map.  Are there fish in it, eg north of Farnham, or is it one of the rivers polluted by runoff from adjacent farms?  Where are access points for fly fishing, i.e. places to park?

Have you tried posting this question to can.rec.fishing?  I’ve crossed this river too and wondered the same thing. Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Question:

In my minds eye, I saw incredible stress occuring on the primary thong knot, upper rear, but was relieved to see a perfectly executed bimini twist by a man who knows his knots. There is a God.

Some glorious power must deliver us from this place.

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In my minds eye, I saw incredible stress occuring on the primary thong knot, upper rear, but was relieved to see a perfectly executed bimini twist by a man who knows his knots. There is a God. Some glorious power must deliver us from this place.

Why? Mike

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I currently subscribe to a couple of different fishing mag’s but would like to know what some of the newsgroup members subscribe to and which ones are the best.

I wish I could afford Gray’s.  Seems like s gud’n…. TimW

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I currently subscribe to a couple of different fishing mag’s but would like to know what some of the newsgroup members subscribe to and which ones are the best.

I used to subscribe to a few different ones as a kid, but the only one that remains is Fly Rod & Reel. My brother very thoughtfully renews my subscription each year as a gift, kind of a tradition. If he didn’t I would have dropped FR&R by now as well. All fly fishing rags are geared to the same purpose: presenting readers with a glossy, unattainable image of the "Modern Angler" and delivering their gullible brains to advertisers who hawk mass-produced, plastic flyrods at $600 a pop. Have a nice day Spinolio

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Craig I like Grays and Fly Fishing In Saltwater Jay

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My favourite fishing mag is "Fish & Game New Zealand" P.O.Box 1746 Auckland New Zealand ph.  64-9-579-3000 fax. 64-9-579-3993 ISSN 1172-434X It costs $6.95 NZD = about $4.20 USD.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I would agree with some of what Jason says, though not all of it. A couple of the titles, Fly Rod & Reel and Fly Fisherman, do seem to me too much taken up in destination-type articles (FR&R more so). I still subscribe to Fly Fisherman though…guess I’m a magazine junkie (I work in publishing). However, I find American Angler in general to have less of the destination stuff and more of the fishing stuff. Most recent issue arrived yesterday, featuring articles on midge fishing (complete with patterns and recipes), damsel flies, nymphing techniques, buying bamboo rods, and small stream fishing. Plus, I love C. Boyd Pfeiffers tips column. I’ve now built my own bobbin rest/cradle, and am planning a rod wrapping stand and gallows-type tool based on some of his suggestions. The entymology column is also interesting. I look forward to my American Angler every month (although they spend too much time on eastern fisheries–I’m in California. I also subscribe to Western Fly Fishing and Western Fly Tying (as some one in publishing, let me take a minute to say hey Amato! get an art director with a sense of design and restraint), and Fly Tyer. In particular, I find the fly tying publications, as Jason said, full of useful info. And like I said, I’m a magazine junkie. All that having been said, much of this info is also available to you on the internet now…but you can’t take it in the john with you. Roger

Personally, I dropped American Angler, as they have become another Trout mag. There Saltwater flyfishing seems pretty good. Don’t bother with Fly Fishing In Saltwater, unless you have lots of bucks to travel. Charlie

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I currently subscribe to a couple of different fishing mag’s but would like to know what some of the newsgroup members subscribe to and which ones are the best.

   I subscribe to all the fishing mags (including foreign ones). It’s my job to be up on what’s new and even the ads get my attention. One tidbit pays for the issue (and quite frankly I do get something of value out almost all the magazines).    If I were allowed only one rag it would be IN-FISHERMAN (gasp!). It is the only magazine that consistantly has in-depth articles about fish and fisheries rather than peripheral stuff like thermometer reviews or streamside fashions.     After the fifteenth incarnation of "All you ever wanted to know about strike indicators", you really have to wonder how long the average reader has been subscribing to ANY of the flyishing magazines.    -Ralph

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With all of this magazine talk, I’ve got to wonder when a FF mag will finally come out with a February Swimsuit issue. Who would grace the cover – Lefty Kreh in thog briefs casting to bonefish??

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Lefty Kreh in thog briefs casting to bonefish??

Thank you, Sean, for putting that wonderous image into our heads. Steve

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[snip] :     After the fifteenth incarnation of "All you ever wanted to know about : strike indicators", you really have to wonder how long the average reader : has been subscribing to ANY of the flyishing magazines. Or how much there really is to know about our beloved hobby! — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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: Lefty Kreh in thog briefs casting to bonefish?? : Thank you, Sean, for putting that wonderous image into our heads. No good becomes the man who uses the words thong and Lefty in the same sentence.   (Unless it is done in a anatomical context, as in "Men wearing thongs are predisposed to hang lefty.") — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/

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I currently subscribe to a couple of different fishing mag’s but would like to know what some of the newsgroup members subscribe to and which ones are the best. Craig,    After subscribing to countless magazines ( Flyfishing, fishing, hunting, etc.) over many years I have come to the conclusion that the money is better spent on new  equipment, better tying vice, gas, or other…. Most magazines recycle , perhaps modify somewhat … but still generally write about the same stuff…  It becomes quite boring and a waste of money IMHO… Some are better than others.

Magazines in any area, be it fishing or fly tying or computers or baby rearing or what-have-you, recycle material because over time their readership changes and they have proportionally more readers who are new to the field than they do "old timers".  This can be an annoyance to the old hands who find themselves reading the same type of material over and over again, but it’s great for authors who can make a fine living recycling old material.  Hmmm…maybe it’s time to consider a career change?  :-) — Bob Jarvis Mail addresses hacked to foil automailers!

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: Lefty Kreh in thog briefs casting to bonefish?? : Thank you, Sean, for putting that wonderous image into our heads. No good becomes the man who uses the words thong and Lefty in the same sentence. (Unless it is done in a anatomical context, as in "Men wearing thongs are predisposed to hang lefty.")

Great. Just great. Now, not only do we have Lefty in a thong but we know which way he’s hanging! Bring me a bucket… I’m gonna ROFF! Spinolio

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Lefty Kreh in thog briefs casting to bonefish?? : Thank you, Sean, for putting that wonderous image into our heads. No good becomes the man who uses the words thong and Lefty in the same sentence. (Unless it is done in a anatomical context, as in "Men wearing thongs are predisposed to hang lefty.") Great. Just great. Now, not only do we have Lefty in a thong but we know which way he’s hanging! Bring me a bucket… I’m gonna ROFF!

In my minds eye, I saw incredible stress occuring on the primary thong knot, upper rear, but was relieved to see a perfectly executed bimini twist by a man who knows his knots. There is a God. TimW

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I currently subscribe to a couple of different fishing mag’s but would like to know what some of the newsgroup members subscribe to and which ones are the best. Craig T

Dear Craig; I have found most flyfishing mags. superfluous.  They are O.K. for getting vacationing FFermen to know about destinations (and, in the local’s point of view, ruining them, with some legitimacy), and some techniques, (usually casting), but that is about it. I am not independently wealthy, so I don’t go jetting around the continent to fantastic, exotic waters.  So I find it of little utility for me.   After I learned enough about locations, hatches, tying, casting and the fish in general and had knowlegeable people to talk to, the magazines were, as I said, became superfluous. The applicability was really nil. Now, fly tying mags, like "Fly Tyer" are much different. I can apply techniques seen there to flies I use right here.  Of most utility are the local sporting publications.  I fish in Pennsylvania, so knowing what’s going on here is important to me.  Also, these publications keep track of local and state legislation, special regs. areas, local pollution, stream recover and projects, recent reports on new waters for me to fish, etc.  I don’t give a flyin’ fig about that damnable DePuy’s spring creek.  So what.  It is not a critical national or for me, local issue.  There is time and effort better spent elsewhere. JB

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: for me to fish, etc.  I don’t give a flyin’ fig about that damnable : DePuy’s spring creek.  So what.  It is not a critical national or for : me, local issue.  There is time and effort better spent elsewhere. Jason, I’d like you to reconsider.  There are good trout streams and there are trout streams without trout.  Consider all these resources, resources of our natural world.  We need to work together to protect the remaining good resources and work together to reclaim the wasted resources.  If we don’t work together, they will all be gone.  It might take years and years, but they will all go away.  The first step (IMO) in working together is education and awareness.  It’s good to know what makes a resource good, and how it stacks up with local conditions with which we might be more familiar.  It’s important to know what is excellent, what is good and what is weak, because it helps us draw distinctions and priorities.  I argue it’s improtant to know other countries, because it helps imagine what it was like here 100 years ago (of course, Idaho is still like it was 100 years ago), and what it can be again. I encourage you and others to try to maintain at least a minimal interest in the rest of the world.  We are all local fisherfolk. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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I would agree with some of what Jason says, though not all of it. A couple of the titles, Fly Rod & Reel and Fly Fisherman, do seem to me too much taken up in destination-type articles (FR&R more so). I still subscribe to Fly Fisherman though…guess I’m a magazine junkie (I work in publishing). However, I find American Angler in general to have less of the destination stuff and more of the fishing stuff. Most recent issue arrived yesterday, featuring articles on midge fishing (complete with patterns and recipes), damsel flies, nymphing techniques, buying bamboo rods, and small stream fishing. Plus, I love C. Boyd Pfeiffers tips column. I’ve now built my own bobbin rest/cradle, and am planning a rod wrapping stand and gallows-type tool based on some of his suggestions. The entymology column is also interesting. I look forward to my American Angler every month (although they spend too much time on eastern fisheries–I’m in California. I also subscribe to Western Fly Fishing and Western Fly Tying (as some one in publishing, let me take a minute to say hey Amato! get an art director with a sense of design and restraint), and Fly Tyer. In particular, I find the fly tying publications, as Jason said, full of useful info. And like I said, I’m a magazine junkie. All that having been said, much of this info is also available to you on the internet now…but you can’t take it in the john with you. Roger

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Amen to all that before. Much superflous caca in these magazines. Of them, American Angler is by far the best. Fly Rod & Reel isn’t very well written but the fiction issue is well worth buying. They also ran an interesting piece an issue or two ago about how bamboo rods are built. Of course, American Angler did that too…

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Wonderful advise, Rick.  Concern for local issues is only an important starting point.

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I currently subscribe to a couple of different fishing mag’s but would like to know what some of the newsgroup members subscribe to and which ones are the best. Craig T

Craig,    After subscribing to countless magazines ( Flyfishing, fishing, hunting, etc.) over many years I have come to the conclusion that the money is better spent on new  equipment, better tying vice, gas, or other…. Most magazines recycle , perhaps modify somewhat … but still generally write about the same stuff…  It becomes quite boring and a waste of money IMHO… Some are better than others. Just some thoughts !                                                                                              Jody

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I currently subscribe to a couple of different fishing mag’s but would like to know what some of the newsgroup members subscribe to and which ones are the best. Craig T

A couple of my favs are Fly Fisherman and Flyfishing.  I also like Salmon, Trout, Steelheader. -Burton — L. Burton Hawley 2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, OR

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I currently subscribe to a couple of different fishing mag’s but would like to know what some of the newsgroup members subscribe to and which ones are the best. Craig T

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I don’t subscribe to it, but I just found a magazine called "Wild Steelhead & Salmon" that looks pretty good if you’re into those fish.   I can’t say how consistent it is because I’ve only seen this one issue, and it is a little expensive, but it’s out there if you’re curious.

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I currently subscribe to a couple of different fishing mag’s but would like to know what some of the newsgroup members subscribe to and which ones are the best. Craig THi Craig,

I subscribe to American Angler, Fly Rod & Reel, Fly Tying, Fly Tyers, Fly Fish America (the national version of the regional free magazine), and Fly Fisherman. I think American Angler is real good. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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Question:

I totally agree with Ausable 1 (?) about Rick Westerberg – he is one of the best guides I have ever used.  Unfortunately, he only guides out of Westbank Anglers, and therein lies a problem.  My friends and I have guided through Westbank on two occasions, and both times got into disputes with the owners (and a couple of the other guides, too) over excessive charges, for flies, leaders, etc.  If your guide ties on a length of tippet for you (which they are very willing to do) you will most likely find a charge on your bill for a whole spool of tippet.  Likewise flies – the guides typically choose a selection of flies for you to use from the shop, and you get charged for them whether you use them or not.  Its an annoying way they have of doing business, and we have decided we won’t ever book with them again. Too bad, because Rick is the best.  He needs to get out on his own, in my opinion. Don

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I totally agree with Ausable 1 (?) about Rick Westerberg – he is one of the best guides I have ever used.  Unfortunately, he only guides out of Westbank Anglers, and therein lies a problem.  My friends and I have guided through Westbank on two occasions, and both times got into disputes with the owners (and a couple of the other guides, too) over excessive charges, for flies, leaders, etc.  If your guide ties on a length of tippet for you (which they are very willing to do) you will most likely find a charge on your bill for a whole spool of tippet.  Likewise flies – the guides typically choose a selection of flies for you to use from the shop, and you get charged for them whether you use them or not.  Its an annoying way they have of doing business, and we have decided we won’t ever book with them again. Too bad, because Rick is the best.  He needs to get out on his own, in my opinion. DonDon,

        That’s outrages to hear that a fly shop would charge you for tippet used. I can understand being charged for flys used, but not for flys not used. I’ve been a guide for a very long time and have never saw such a practice. We, as guides in the shop that I work for, buy all terminal tackle to use on trips, and the client pays for the flys that they use. I’m sure that a shop that charges for tippet used and flys not used, will not be in business for long, and your favorite guide will be working for someone else.—–T Wigs

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I totally agree with Ausable 1 (?) about Rick Westerberg – he is one of the best guides I have ever used.  Unfortunately, he only guides out of Westbank Anglers, and therein lies a problem.  My friends and I have guided through Westbank on two occasions, and both times got into disputes with the owners (and a couple of the other guides, too) over excessive charges, for flies, leaders, etc.  If your guide ties on a length of tippet for you (which they are very willing to do) you will most likely find a charge on your bill for a whole spool of tippet.  Likewise flies – the guides typically choose a selection of flies for you to use from the shop, and you get charged for them whether you use them or not.  Its an annoying way they have of doing business, and we have decided we won’t ever book with them again. Too bad, because Rick is the best.  He needs to get out on his own, in my opinion. DonDon,         That’s outrages to hear that a fly shop would charge you for tippet used. I can understand being charged for flys used, but not for flys not used. I’ve been a guide for a very long time and have never saw such a practice. We, as guides in the shop that I work for, buy all terminal tackle to use on trips, and the client pays for the flys that they use. I’m sure that a shop that charges for tippet used and flys not used, will not be in business for long, and your favorite guide will be working for someone else.—–T Wigs

Hi T Wigs, I’m guide as well and the outfit I work for does about the same as you discribe.  Any flies not used are returned for a refund unless the client wants to keep them.  Often this is the case and that’s fine.  Regarding tippet:  our clients usually buy what ever tippet spools they want.  If they don’t have them or forget I just use my own. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some friends and I are looking at going to Jackson Hole next summer for some flyfishing.  Wive will be going as well and will only fish a day or two.  I need suggestions on lodges to stay at and rivers to fish. thanks Hi You might consider staying at Jackson Lake Lodge.  It’s a beautiful place with fishing options in every direction – Yellowstone Park, Snake River, etc. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog) I can certainly second Al’s recommendation on Jackson Lake Lodge.   The Snake is about a 5 minute drive from there.  Bring your money.  Try the buffalo steak.  Don’t pet the moose.   Hey Al – the plumbing still works _great_ there, too.  Thanks for your help last Spring!   Cheers, -Mark Anderson Hi Mark, Glad to help. When you were there did you try the beaver pond in the meadow behind the lodge? — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog)

On where to stay in Jackson…I can tell you DO NOT stay at the Hitching Post Lodge.  My wife and I made reservations there months in advance.  I picked-up their advertisement on the Net.  Our stay there was miserable, plus some stuff came-up missing out of my room (the maid service).  I reported it to the manager, who seemed not to care, but told me she would check into it.  I waited…no response.  I asked the manager about it when I checked out…she said the maid-service didn’t know anything about it.  I had also made additional reservations after a few days in Yellowstone.  After the poor service and theft from my room I cancelled the future reservations.  Guess what?  They charged my Visa card for the cancelled reservation.  I’m disputing that with Visa at this moment.  Be careful where you stay…you are doing the right thing in asking for recommendations…wish I had gotten recommendations before hand.  The Hitching Post Lodge in Jackson, Wyoming is BAD NEWS. Cheers, Snuggs

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some friends and I are looking at going to Jackson Hole next summer for some flyfishing.  Wive will be going as well and will only fish a day or two.  I need suggestions on lodges to stay at and rivers to fish. thanks Hi You might consider staying at Jackson Lake Lodge.  It’s a beautiful place with fishing options in every direction – Yellowstone Park, Snake River, etc. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog)

I can certainly second Al’s recommendation on Jackson Lake Lodge.  The Snake is about a 5 minute drive from there.  Bring your money.  Try the buffalo steak.  Don’t pet the moose.   Hey Al – the plumbing still works _great_ there, too.  Thanks for your help last Spring!   Cheers, -Mark Anderson

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some friends and I are looking at going to Jackson Hole next summer for some flyfishing.  Wive will be going as well and will only fish a day or two.  I need suggestions on lodges to stay at and rivers to fish. thanks Hi You might consider staying at Jackson Lake Lodge.  It’s a beautiful place with fishing options in every direction – Yellowstone Park, Snake River, etc. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog) I can certainly second Al’s recommendation on Jackson Lake Lodge.  The Snake is about a 5 minute drive from there.  Bring your money.  Try the buffalo steak.  Don’t pet the moose.   Hey Al – the plumbing still works _great_ there, too.  Thanks for your help last Spring!   Cheers, -Mark Anderson

Hi Mark, Glad to help. When you were there did you try the beaver pond in the meadow behind the lodge? — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog)

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Some friends and I are looking at going to Jackson Hole next summer for some flyfishing.  Wive will be going as well and will only fish a day or two.  I need suggestions on lodges to stay at and rivers to fish. thanks

Hi You might consider staying at Jackson Lake Lodge.  It’s a beautiful place with fishing options in every direction – Yellowstone Park, Snake River, etc. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog)

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Headed to Jackson, As long as you are going to be in the Jackson area be sure to fish the Snake.  My favorite stretch is from Moose to Wilson.  Call West Bank Anglersn and book Rick Westerburg as your guide.  You should also consider driving over the "hill" and fish the South Fork.  I like the run from Palisades to South Fork Lodge. Good luck, AuSable 1

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Some friends and I are looking at going to Jackson Hole next summer for some flyfishing.  Wive will be going as well and will only fish a day or two.  I need suggestions on lodges to stay at and rivers to fish. thanks

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Question:

Did anyone see the segment on the opening of "trout" season in Missouri on the Osgood show this AM?  Call me a snob if you wish, but I thought the show was somewhere between disgusting and hilarious. Why don’t they save everyone the trouble, and give all applicants vouchers for 5 free trout at the local fish market? I’d love to hear your comments. Some sport there.

I’m a Missouri fly fisherman. Those openings in the trout parks are a tradition in this state, and the way I see it, the trout stamps and the one-day tags those folks buy pay for  the care of some pretty good water elsewhere that those crowds prob’ly don’t even know exist… Bob –

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I’m from Missouri and fish often at the state trout parks. I didn’t see the show but can imagine what it looked like. 3000 people isn’t unusual for opening day. No, I don’t consider you a snob. I don’t go to opening day and haven’t for 20 years. It’s a circus. The trout parks serve a purpose for us in Missouri (where are you from?) in that most of our water is too warm to support trout. There are some streams in the Ozarks that have trout but they are few and far between. So, during the summer, rather than not go at all a lot of us frequent the trout parks. After the crowd dies down. But, the best time is during the winter. We have a winter season from Oct. to Feb. Catch and Release only. That keeps most people away. I’ve been there when there were only 30 – 40 people on the entire stream. In some areas of the country that still would be a lot but it’s the best we have. Anyhow, one trip last winter my son and I were all alone for as far as we could see. No fish are stocked during the winter but there are some left over from the season stocking. Good luck, and tight lines.

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The State of MO is providing a product that is obviously in great demand. The people were all there by choice, I’m assuming. The funds generated at the four MO "trout parks" provide a big dose of bucks to the conservation efforts in MO. Also, if you’ve ever taken an eight year-old fishing only to have them give up after 15 minutes, you can appreciate the trout parks even more. Almost guaranteed results can be a real boon to a child.  My nephew vividly remembers a trip we to one of these parks. He’s kept his enthusiasm, in part to his success at a park I hope, through many fishless days. No, you won’t catch me at opening day. Nor will you see me there unless I’m there with a kid. And that will be mid-week. John Nesselrode Shawnee, KS

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 if you’ve ever taken an eight year-old fishing only to have them give up after 15 minutes, you can appreciate the trout parks even more. Almost guaranteed results can be a real boon to a child.  My nephew vividly remembers a trip we to one of these parks. He’s kept his enthusiasm, in part to his success at a park I hope, through many fishless days. No, you won’t catch me at opening day. Nor will you see me there unless I’m there with a kid. And that will be mid-week.

John, I agree. My 12-year old has very vivid memories of a couple of trips we made to one of the parks.  It’s a marvelous way to introduce kids to fly fishing. Bob

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    Organization: Temple University, Academic Computer Services    Misha,    Personally, I would bag the idea of using clip swivels at all.  From    personal experience, they tend to sink dry flys and they also are    difficult to get your fly onto (which if you’re using a dry will almost    certainly cause you to crush the hackles, tail, etc.). How ’bout pre-tying on the tippet, with a loop at the end, for a loop-to-loop -type of connection? — Matt Meola NRA Life, Libertarian, Militiaman Gun control means using two hands. Live free or die!

Matt, A loop-to-loop connection between the tippet and the next section of the leader might not allow the fly to turn over as easily (compared with, say a surgeons or barrel knot).  Also, it would seem to be a little too bulky for my taste, which could possibly put down some fish. Also, I have my doubts concerning the practicality of carrying around a hundred or so flys with tippets already attached (I’m implying that this was what you were getting at previously.  I apologize in advance if I misinterpreted your posting.). Best Regards, Jim Davis Philadelphia, PA Temple University

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It gets rather tiring when I have to switch Flies and have to continue retying different Flies onto my line.. I use #14 and was wondering are their any types of Clip Swiviles out there for quick Fly changing..

Clips or swivels are too heavy and are not made in sizes small enough for the flies needed sometimes by trout. The simplest solution is to learn the turle knot, which is easy (can almost be tied blindfold or at night) and does not mash hackles. —  |          Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Rd., Carlsbad         |  |        Springs, Ont., Canada K0A 1K0; tel: (613) 822-0734       |  |  "What I’ve always liked about science is its independence from |  |  authority"–Ontario Science Centre (name on file) 10 July 1981 |

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   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    Organization: Temple University, Academic Computer Services    Misha,    Personally, I would bag the idea of using clip swivels at all.  From    personal experience, they tend to sink dry flys and they also are    difficult to get your fly onto (which if you’re using a dry will almost    certainly cause you to crush the hackles, tail, etc.). How ’bout pre-tying on the tippet, with a loop at the end, for a loop-to-loop -type of connection? — Matt Meola NRA Life, Libertarian, Militiaman Gun control means using two hands. Live free or die!

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It gets rather tiring when I have to switch Flies and have to continue retying different Flies onto my line.. I use #14 and was wondering are their any types of Clip Swiviles out there for quick Fly changing.. Misha

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It gets rather tiring when I have to switch Flies and have to continue retying different Flies onto my line.. I use #14 and was wondering are their any types of Clip Swiviles out there for quick Fly changing.. Misha

Misha, Personally, I would bag the idea of using clip swivels at all.  From personal experience, they tend to sink dry flys and they also are difficult to get your fly onto (which if you’re using a dry will almost certainly cause you to crush the hackles, tail, etc.). Best Regards, Jim Davis Philadelphia, PA Temple University

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Try the AMI Rec Net at: http://www.aminews.com/ami Centralized source for outdoor news and info. Several fly fishing pages linked. Looking for good stats and other pages on fly fishing. Enjoy, Rob Brown Webmaster

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: Here is a listing I maintain on the Missouri Flyfishing Page of other : flyfishing links: : State or Regional Flyfishing Pages : Arizona : California : Colorado : Montana : Oregon This has shamed me.  Nothing in Idaho.  But will it motivate me?  I’ve been thinking of listing all the rivers in Idaho I know of which offer at least 5 miles of good trout water.  The barrier to my action has been that the list is over 150 in number.  Just the larger streams, nothing small.  So…would anyone out there be interested in this type of info?  I’m usually against these types of lists.  All it does is add to the crowds, but perhaps I’m wrong.  Advice? Rick — T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.  

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i just got www access and would like the www sites of any fly or not fly fishing pages.  email or post in reply please. –

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i just got www access and would like the www sites of any fly or not fly fishing pages.  email or post in reply please. –

The Virtual Flyshop: http://rmii.com/~flyshop/flyshop.html Enjoy! — Mike Tucker- The Virtual Flyshop, The Complete Resource              Web Page:  http://rmii.com/~flyshop/flyshop.html              Tel. 970-498-8779   FAX 970-491-2585 If you try 970 and it doesn’t work use 303.  Leave it to US WEST to change our area code and not tell the rest of the world……

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| In some cases, rainbows have been stocked into rivers. One | example of this is the River Derwent which is a tributary of | the River Tyne here in the NE of England. The Tyne, I should | point out is now a rapidly improving salmon river now that | estuary pollution has been cleared up (!!almost!!). | I thought the Wye in Derbyshire was the only English river with a natural population of rainbows. If the Derwent has them reproducing, i would love to hear more. Of course, most of the chalk-streams have been ruined by overstocking of both rainbows and browns. | | There have, however, been some reports of rainbows being | caught at sea by commercial fishermen but these have been | ignored by the government agencies responsible for overseeing | fisheries (Ministry of Agriculture & Fisheries aka MAFF and | the National Rivers Authority aka NRA) who apparently just | didn’t believe it possible until one had been slapped across | the table. Give me a ring about this, at work — 071-956-1682 — and I willput you through to my frinsd the rural affairs correspondent. It would make a good story if we talked to kthe netsman. | | Yesterday evening I was talking with a local netsman who told | me he had been catching quite a number recently and had just | succeeded in convincing the NRA that they existed. These fish | are, according to this guy, akin to steelheads with a mouth | full of teeth, and are voracious feeders. Furthermore they are | not small, running to several pounds. Completely different | from the tame little fish reservoir anglers are used to!! | | What worries me about this is the possibility that these | things are going to start running up our salmon rivers. I | don’t know if they’re going to continue feeding in freshwater. | If so, on what? Not nymphs and flies I expect, unless they | lose those teeth. In Denmark and Southern Sweden, many of the rivers with trout farms on them have a run of steelhead, too. Certainly the Goeta Aelv (which runs through Gothenburg) did. We used to catch them occaionally in the stuary while trying for sea trout. They did not real harm: certainly a lot less than the greedy touristic masses of stocked, non-migratory fish. — Religious Affairs Correspondent | phone +44-71-253-1222 xt 1682 | London, England                 | I’m not paid to have opinions |

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Informed opinion has it that these fish will not breed naturally in our waters and the presence of overwintered, egg bound females in the early part of our season (March) would seem to confirm this.

Aren’t they spring spawners? If so then March would be pre spawn period. Anyways, it may be just possible that they are laying eggs but the habitat does not induce success. Would there be a clear creek for one of the lakes that they could run for spawning? What worries me about this is the possibility that these things are going to start running up our salmon rivers. I don’t know if they’re going to continue feeding in freshwater. If so, on what? Not nymphs and flies I expect, unless they lose those teeth.

Steelhead are spring spawners by nature and will eventually revert back to spring spawning after several generations. This means most will run the rivers in the spring. But some run the rivers in the fall holding overwinter. The fall runners would probably feed on loose salmon eggs, insects, minnows. But during winter their metabolism is slow and would suspect they don’t feed much. In the sea they feed to grow but in the river they would feed to sustain energy spent. So can I ask you all for some info about these things in the wild?? 1. If they do run our rivers and continue to feed avidly, will they threaten existing fish stocks of salmonids by feeding on eggs, fry or smolts.

I doubt this especially if you have a healthy run of salmons. 2. What breeding conditions do they need?

Same as a salmon but they probably would have a higher fry success rate than salmon. 3. Do they run a river, breed and die/return to the sea like atlantic salmon?

Run, spawn, return. or 4. Will they run up a river, graze until the larders empty and then return to the sea?

No! This could be a real problem for us, I’d appreciate some or any info you might have. Finally, In the event the River Tyne ends up with a steelhead run know any good fly patterns??  =8-(

Anything black works here, nymphs, wigglers. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tight lines

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Hi! In the UK our experience with rainbows has, in the past, been largely limited to stillwaters (mostly reservoirs), which are stocked with hatchery reared fish at intervals. I understand, **though I may be completely wrong on this**, that two basic types (shasta and steelhead) were imported into this country a number of years ago but that insufficient care/understanding by breeders has lead to a thorough mixing of the two. What we have now, in nearly all stillwaters, are, as you can guess, pretty poor specimens which apparently bear absolutely NO RESEMBLANCE WHATSOEVER to the REAL thing. You can, however, still pick up obviously different fish which, presumeably, relate more closely to either of the wild types. Informed opinion has it that these fish will not breed naturally in our waters and the presence of overwintered, egg bound females in the early part of our season (March) would seem to confirm this. In some cases, rainbows have been stocked into rivers. One example of this is the River Derwent which is a tributary of the River Tyne here in the NE of England. The Tyne, I should point out is now a rapidly improving salmon river now that estuary pollution has been cleared up (!!almost!!). There have, however, been some reports of rainbows being caught at sea by commercial fishermen but these have been ignored by the government agencies responsible for overseeing fisheries (Ministry of Agriculture & Fisheries aka MAFF and the National Rivers Authority aka NRA) who apparently just didn’t believe it possible until one had been slapped across the table. Yesterday evening I was talking with a local netsman who told me he had been catching quite a number recently and had just succeeded in convincing the NRA that they existed. These fish are, according to this guy, akin to steelheads with a mouth full of teeth, and are voracious feeders. Furthermore they are not small, running to several pounds. Completely different from the tame little fish reservoir anglers are used to!! What worries me about this is the possibility that these things are going to start running up our salmon rivers. I don’t know if they’re going to continue feeding in freshwater. If so, on what? Not nymphs and flies I expect, unless they lose those teeth. So can I ask you all for some info about these things in the wild?? 1. If they do run our rivers and continue to feed avidly, will they threaten existing fish stocks of salmonids by feeding on eggs, fry or smolts. 2. What breeding conditions do they need? 3. Do they run a river, breed and die/return to the sea like atlantic salmon? or 4. Will they run up a river, graze until the larders empty and then return to the sea? This could be a real problem for us, I’d appreciate some or any info you might have. Finally, In the event the River Tyne ends up with a steelhead run know any good fly patterns??  =8-( Tight lines

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…two basic types (shasta and steelhead) were imported…

For *trout*, I believe most of Europe was stocked with "Eagle Lake" rainbow – a lake not far from Shasta in California, USA. For *steelhead*, I could only guess you have the Skamania steelhead from Washington State, USA.   It has been selected for transplant all over because of its suitability with hatchery operations (i.e. cheap and easy to raise). Trout and steelhead are different critters.   Trout are landlocked, and steelhead are typically sea-run, though if you landlock them, they’d probably do fine – the great lakes in the U.S. are an example where they do just fine, and make runs, the only difference is their ocean is freshwater. What we have now … apparently bear absolutely NO RESEMBLANCE …

The U.S. was stocked primarly with two strains of brown trout from Europe.   Old timers said it was once possible to tell them apart. Now they too have interbred and don’t look quite like the real thing.   Still fun to catch though Informed opinion has it that these fish will not breed naturally in our waters and the presence of overwintered, egg bound females in the early part of our season (March) would seem to confirm this.

Rainbows and cutthroat are spring spawners. Steelhead spawn from fall to spring, depending on latitude.   I suspect you’re close to Oregon and Washington – winter (December) through spring (late April) spawning. Only guessing – stocking stillwaters isn’t too successful (spawning wise) for trout.    Most lakes for example in Oregon, were stocked with trout in the 1920’s, or there abouts, and require repeat stockings every few years.   Only those lakes with small creeks incoming, or gravel banks with lots of hydrodynamics, seem to maintain populations without stocking. Rivers however, trout stock fairly easily.   Ditto steelhead if they have a large body of stillwater and running water to run between. There have, however, been some reports of rainbows being caught at sea by commercial fishermen …..

Wouldn’t surprise me. Some Atlantic Salmon were raised next to a coastal stream in Washington State – some accidently got into the river.   Recently, there have been reports of *large* Atlantic Salmon being caught.   I could imagine the Steelhead in Europe finally establishing themselves. What worries me about this is the possibility that these things are going to start running up our salmon rivers. I don’t know if they’re going to continue feeding in freshwater. If so, on what? Not nymphs and flies I expect, unless they lose those teeth.

I don’t know the spawning period for Atlantics.   Read the article enclosed below – there will certainly be competition at some points in the life cycle.   BTW – Young steelhead (egg – alvein – parr – smolt) are aggressive feeders of anything while in fresh water, which is usually from 6 to 24 months, some 36 months. 1. If they do run our rivers and continue to feed avidly, will they threaten existing fish stocks of salmonids by feeding on eggs, fry or smolts.

Adult Steelhead only come into fresh water to spawn, and don’t feed much.   Also, unlike Atlantics, they don’t do as much repeat spawning. In a given run, maybe 35% are one time repeaters, 10% two time. 2. What breeding conditions do they need?

For Steelhead, Very fast tailout water – 3 to 5 mph or up to 8 kph.  Small gravel in tributaries.   For early incoming steelhead, deep holding pools prior to the spawning season. 3. Do they run a river, breed and die/return to the sea like atlantic salmon?

Yep, except more Atlantic repeat the process. 4. Will they run up a river, graze until the larders empty and then return to the sea?

What’s a larder? know any good fly patterns??  =8-(

Many Atlantic Salmon patterns have been modified for Steelhead. Thomas Gilg FYI – From a back issue of our clubs newsletter:                 Mid-Willamette Fly Fishers Newsletter VOLUME X NO.5                                           May 1993 *** Introduction to Stream Habitat Improvement *** Summarized and adapted by Frank Cochrane from ODF&W publication "An Introduction to Stream Habitat Improvement" For a stream to produce large numbers of trout or salmon, the stream habitat must be in good condition.  This requires cold, clean water, food, and cover.  Most of Oregon’s streams have been degraded by man’s activities.  Therefore, the streams cannot support as many fish as they once could. Loss of spawning gravels, rearing areas, streamside vegetation, instream woody debris, and access to productive areas are some of the major results of man’s careless treatment of the aquatic environment. Many of those problems can be overcome in sections of some streams through habitat improvement projects.  The Conservation Committee is presently looking into possibilities for meaningful projects by the Mid Willamette Fly Fishers to improve the aquatic habitat in some of the nearby streams — and improve our fishing opportunities.  The material below gives an introduction to the basic principles of stream habitat improvement. The "Bottleneck Concept" If some limiting factor exists, a stream’s fish production is restricted or "bottlenecked".  Fish numbers are lower than optimum as a result.  Here are two examples:    o If spawning area is limited, spawning success is low.      Therefore, fish numbers are restricted by the small      number of eggs that hatch and develop into fry.    o If the rearing area is poor or the food supply is      inadequate, the fish become stunted or their numbers      are reduced.  Therefore, the mature fish are not      healthy, or there are not many mature fish. In either case, fish numbers cannot be increased until the stream habitat is improved and the bottleneck is reduced. It is important to understand what is limiting fish production in a particular situation so that efforts to increase the numbers of fish are not misdirected and wasted. What are common Habitat Problems?    o Water Quality.  Temperatures may be too high for trout      or salmon.  Various types of pollution may be having a      negative effect on fish and aquatic insect production.    o Barriers to Production Areas.  These may be either      natural, such as falls or log jams, or man- made, such      as dams and improperly installed culverts.    o Abused Riparian Zone.  Overgrazing, logging, road      building, and urban development often result in loss of      streamside vegetation.  Good plant growth along a      stream provides shade that helps keep water cool,      reduces erosion and silt loads, and contributes insects      to the fish food supply.    o Lack of Spawning Area.  Some streams lack suitable      spawning areas because of scouring by floods, channel      alterations from human activity, or the lack of proper      size gravels in the stream.    o Inadequate Juvenile Rearing Areas.  A mixture of      riffles and pools, undercut streambanks, side channels,      and instream boulders plus a certain amount of large      woody structures are necessary to provide juvenile fish      with an environment for survival and growth.    o Adult Holding Areas are Missing.  Adult fish need pools      for hiding and resting.  This is especially true for      some salmon and steelhead that return several months      before spawning.  Many streams lack sufficient holding      pools for adults. How to Conduct a Project to Improve Stream Habitat Each project to improve stream habitat requires individual consideration to tailor it to the need and the site.  The steps below are essential for a successful project.   1. Identify the Problem.  Before starting a project to      improve stream habitat, we need to find out where and      what is needed, with the help and guidance of ODF&W or      other fishery professionals.  Stream surveys must be      done to collect appropriate information, and the      results must be evaluated.  What are the bottlenecks?   2. Prescribe a Treatment.  We should determine what      actions can be taken to reduce the bottlenecks.   3. Treat the Bottlenecks.  The treatment prescribed above      is then carried out.   4. Evaluate the Results.  Is the treatment accomplishing      the desired result?  We should consider both short and      long term effects.  Are there more healthy fish in the      stream?  Are there lessor bottlenecks that need      treatment?   5. Maintain the Habitat Improvement.  Periodic inspection      and maintenance may be needed to ensure the retention      of any beneficial effect. It is sometimes tempting to get in too big of a hurry to do Steps 1, 4 and 5.  Let’s not fall into that trap! Look for more from the Conservation Committee in the near future concerning projects to improve stream habitat — and to improve fishing opportunities at the same time.

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