Question:

______  RW?  I want to talk to you at: — http://www.gink.com/chat If you are up.  I’m going there now. George

Response:

Ernie, I’ve seen these but have never had the guts to use them.  Do they stay in the flyline when you hook a big fish?  They look like they would slip out.

Vern; This topic comes up every few weeks here.  If you do a Deja News search you can find quite a bit of discussion of it over the past year or so.  It seems that Ernie and I are the biggest fans of leader links.  I’ve used them for over fifteen years, as have a number of my friends.  I know of no case in which they have failed, except when they are so old that repeated dragging over rocks etc., has abraded them badly.  Of course, any knot used to attach a leader to the fly line would have fared just as badly. Like anything else, a leader link has a finite useable life.  But bearing that in mind they are very reliable, cheap, and easy to use, and should be more than adequate for anything less demanding than large salt water species.  I’ve personally caught quite a few steelhead and salmon while rigged with leader links and never had a problem. Someone else recently suggested knotting the ends of the leader and line together before reinserting them into the leader link.  This is unnecessary for most applications but can’t hurt if you can actually tie a knot small enough.

Response:

Vern,    They are surprisingly strong.  The only thing to watch out for is to tie a figure 8 knot or double overhand when attaching leader butt’s with diameters of .017 or less to make a larger knot.  You should check the line where it enters the Leader Link vocationally to see that it hasn’t cracked. They seem to last forever, I have worn out lines and moved the Leader Link to a new line.  Changing leaders is so easy that I replace the whole leader rather than tie on a new tippet while I am fishing.  I save the leaders and rebuild them when I am not fishing. Ernie Harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ernie, I’ve seen these but have never had the guts to use them. Do they stay in the flyline when you hook a big fish? They look like they would slip out. Vern Don,    Try using the Leader Link from Eagle Claw. Eagle Claw Country Store Phone 1-800-628-0108 4245 East 46th Avenue Denver Colorado 80216 Leader Link For tapered lines (LL1) For level lines     (LL2) There are 3 links per package and cost $2.83 per pack.

Response:

Are you guys differentiating between the kind that slip over and the kind that poke through (with barbs) the end of your flyline?……john – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Vern,   They are surprisingly strong.  The only thing to watch out for is to tie a figure 8 knot or double overhand when attaching leader butt’s with diameters of .017 or less to make a larger knot.  You should check the line where it enters the Leader Link vocationally to see that it hasn’t cracked. They seem to last forever, I have worn out lines and moved the Leader Link to a new line.  Changing leaders is so easy that I replace the whole leader rather than tie on a new tippet while I am fishing.  I save the leaders and rebuild them when I am not fishing. Ernie Harrison Ernie, I’ve seen these but have never had the guts to use them. Do they stay in the flyline when you hook a big fish? They look like they would slip out. Vern Don,    Try using the Leader Link from Eagle Claw. Eagle Claw Country Store Phone 1-800-628-0108 4245 East 46th Avenue Denver Colorado 80216 Leader Link For tapered lines (LL1) For level lines     (LL2) There are 3 links per package and cost $2.83 per pack.

Response:

John,    A Leader Link looks like a large grain of rice with a hole drilled through the center lengthwise and with the sides cut out in the middle. Your line slides into the hole in one end and out the hole in the side,  You tie an overhand knot in it, trim off the excess and pull it back through the hole in the side.  Then you do the same with your leader in the hole in the other end. Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you guys differentiating between the kind that slip over and the kind that poke through (with barbs) the end of your flyline?……john

Response:

ahhhh….those rascals……thanks….john

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -John,   A Leader Link looks like a large grain of rice with a hole drilled through the center lengthwise and with the sides cut out in the middle. Your line slides into the hole in one end and out the hole in the side, You tie an overhand knot in it, trim off the excess and pull it back through the hole in the side.  Then you do the same with your leader in the hole in the other end. Ernie Are you guys differentiating between the kind that slip over and the kind that poke through (with barbs) the end of your flyline?……john

Response:

I’ve been experimenting with different connections between my fly line and leader.  My local flyshop has a habit of tying a perfection loop into a line and then using a loop-to-loop connection but if I’m going to get a wind knot that’s where it will happen 90% of the time.  I’ve taken recently to tying a short section (18") of butt directly to the end of the line using a nail knot, then tying in a tapered leader, then tying in a tippet.  I end up clipping off a 1/2" of line anytime I have to change out that butt section which is more often than I’d like. Any other suggestions? TIA, Don — Don Anderson

Response:

going to get a wind knot that’s where it will happen 90% of the time.  I’ve taken recently to tying a short section (18") of butt directly to the end of the line using a nail knot, then tying in a tapered leader, then tying in a tippet.  I end up clipping off a 1/2" of line anytime I have to change out that butt

Don, I wonder how many posts you are going to get like this one. You know, where your question is addressed but no advice given? Myself, I use the perfection not on both the butt section and the leader.  I like the way it forms the loop to loop as far as turn over goes.  Less likelihood of the ‘hinging effect.’ I do recall this question coming up a long time ago and I saved the question and all of the answers….course I lost a whole big file of stuff while learning some of the various functions of my computer.  And I don’t remember what the answer was….I think it had something to do with casting…in order to avoid the knots. I must have retained something on a subconscious level because it moved the knots down into the tippet section. All I know is that it’s a real pickle trying to flyfish with a short term

Response:

Hi Don, I like to first needle nail knot a new tapered knotless monofilament leader directly to the end of my flyline. I am actually ’snelling’ on the leader. Then after I have used up all the taper by adding tippet material, I cut the leader at about 12 to 18 inches from the flyline and then attach another tapered leader. This gives me the same diameter and the same constancy of monofilament. You can shorten the new leader by cutting 12 to 18 inches from the butt before tying it on. This is not ‘thee way to do it’, but just another way to do it. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop http://www.kiene.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been experimenting with different connections between my fly line and leader.  My local flyshop has a habit of tying a perfection loop into a line and then using a loop-to-loop connection but if I’m going to get a wind knot that’s where it will happen 90% of the time.  I’ve taken recently to tying a short section (18") of butt directly to the end of the line using a nail knot, then tying in a tapered leader, then tying in a tippet.  I end up clipping off a 1/2" of line anytime I have to change out that butt section which is more often than I’d like. Any other suggestions? TIA, Don — Don Anderson

Response:

Don,    Try using the Leader Link from Eagle Claw. Eagle Claw Country Store Phone 1-800-628-0108 4245 East 46th Avenue Denver Colorado 80216 Leader Link For tapered lines (LL1) For level lines     (LL2) There are 3 links per package and cost $2.83 per pack. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’ve been experimenting with different connections between my fly line and leader.  My local flyshop has a habit of tying a perfection loop into a line and then using a loop-to-loop connection but if I’m going to get a wind knot that’s where it will happen 90% of the time.  I’ve taken recently to tying a short section (18") of butt directly to the end of the line using a nail knot, then tying in a tapered leader, then tying in a tippet.  I end up clipping off a 1/2" of line anytime I have to change out that butt section which is more often than I’d like. Any other suggestions? TIA, Don — Don Anderson

Response:

I use a nail knot to tie a butt to the leader and then I put a surgeons loop at the end of that.I use a loop to loop connection to attach the leader.I don’t like to use a loop connection to my tippet because I believe it will affect the ability of the leader to lay out straight.Art Lee recommends never using a loop anywhhere on your leader but using a uni-knot to connect which is easier to tie than a nail knot and serves the same function.I have switched to this knot and I haven’t had any problems.

Response:

Don,    Try using the Leader Link from Eagle Claw. Eagle Claw Country Store Phone 1-800-628-0108 4245 East 46th Avenue Denver Colorado 80216 Leader Link For tapered lines (LL1) For level lines     (LL2) There are 3 links per package and cost $2.83 per pack.

Hear, Hear!  I’ve been using Leader Links for 20 years now, and wouldn’t waste my time trying anything else.  They work great, but I hardly know anybody else that uses them.  They don’t look as though they would be all that strong, but they are a hell of a lot stronger than the tippet of your leader (unless maybe you are fishing for blue marlin or something), which is all that you need. Kevin

Response:

Hear, Hear!  I’ve been using Leader Links for 20 years now, and wouldn’t waste my time trying anything else.  They work great, but I hardly know anybody else that uses them.  They don’t look as though they would be all that strong, but they are a hell of a lot stronger than the tippet of your leader (unless maybe you are fishing for blue marlin or something), which is all that you need.

When I recommended leader links to a friend of mine in Idaho he turned up his nose at them. Said he was a "purist". I pointed out that he was using a graphite rod, a nylon leader, and a synthetic flyline. It turned out that the guy didn’t even know how to tie a nail knot or a needle knot. He had it done at the tackle shop. Sheesh! — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Ernie, I’ve seen these but have never had the guts to use them.

Question:

Orvis has a "sink tip system’ that includes 5 foot sink-tip sections that will convert a floating line to a sink-tip one. Has anyone tried this? Does it work ok or would I be better off buying an actual sink-tip line?

I have one of these.  I use it on a six weight.  Casts like hell -hinging, etc…  It will get a streamer or nymph down a little, though.  Effective to about six or eight feet.  In general, I would not suggest it.  You can do as well with a longer leader and a couple of split shot with a floating line. J

Response:

Orvis has a "sink tip system’ that includes 5 foot sink-tip sections that will convert a floating line to a sink-tip one. Has anyone tried this? Does it work ok or would I be better off buying an actual sink-tip line?

Frank, I have one of these and they work ok in a pinch if you hit one or two deep sections and then go back to more moderate depths but if you are going to be fishing deep for extended periods of time my advice would be to buy a sink tip.  I do carry the Orvis sink tip for emergency use but they are a pain to cast and don’t get you down as well as a real sink tip fly line would in my experience. Good Fishing, C. Segina

Response:

Orvis has a "sink tip system’ that includes 5 foot sink-tip sections that will convert a floating line to a sink-tip one. Has anyone tried this? Does it work ok or would I be better off buying an actual sink-tip line?

I haven’t seen Orvis’ up close but Cortland’s tend to be too heavy for my 4 wt.  I have a beat up old full sinking 9 wt line and the thin running portion of it is perfect for making mini sink tips.  The only drawback is that this requires a loop to loop connection.  I prefer nail-knotting a piece of thick leader material and then tying a perfection loop at the end since it lands on the water more softly than a fly-line looped end. Mu

Response:

Frank, Splurge and go for the full line in a medium density.  Use it on a longer rod with a short (3 to 4 ft) leader.  The rod length is for mending and good control.  Don’t believe those who say any old rod and a long leader.  You need to mend and the fly needs to sink.  The longer the distance between the fly and the weight of the tip section, the higher the fly will ride.  You can use leader length to fine tune your drift depth. I made those mini sink tips from lead core years ago.  They’ll sink your fly, but you won’t like the casting unless you’re using 8 wt line+.  They cast like slinky weights on running line — chuck and duck. Mike If you buy a sink tip that has too much tip for your needs, you can just cut it down and reattach your leader butt.  

Response:

Frank: I’ve used the Orvis lead head sections – I don’t think they offer them any more – that must be similar (though shorter) than the 5 ft sink -tip head that you are looking at. These things came in 12 inch and 24 inch sections, and could be looped in at the end of the regular fly line, and the leader looped on the other end.  I think they are quite useful in certain circumstances.  I keep them in my vest, and if I need to go deeper in a spot they work very well – but they are not a substitute for a true sink tip line, say for lake fishing. Mark Faulkner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Orvis has a "sink tip system’ that includes 5 foot sink-tip sections that will convert a floating line to a sink-tip one. Has anyone tried this? Does it work ok or would I be better off buying an actual sink-tip line? Frank

Response:

Orvis has a "sink tip system’ that includes 5 foot sink-tip sections that will convert a floating line to a sink-tip one. Has anyone tried this? Does it work ok or would I be better off buying an actual sink-tip line? Frank

Response:

I have tried these and they will sink your line well but, having a sudden transition to denser line,they are far more difficult to cast than a true sink tip line (but also cheaper). If you have the money for a line and spool, go for the full line. The most effective place for your weight lies in the fly though. Go with a longer leader and a weighted fly for the best effect. Orvis has a "sink tip system’ that includes 5 foot sink-tip sections that will convert a floating line to a sink-tip one. Has anyone tried this? Does it work ok or would I be better off buying an actual sink-tip line? Frank

– Remove "nospam" from address if emailing direct.

Response:

Question:

Here are the facts. I am 70 years old and an avid fly fisherman. I am looking for a canoe I can fish from (stability), doesn`t weigh over 55 lbs (liftability by me). The canoe will mostly be used in lakes and ponds and large slow moving rivers. I am not budget conscious but do not want to have to give up a gold bar for this item. Please help

Response:

Get the lightest canoe you can. There are so many to chose from.

Response:

You know, I took the photograph, I am in the store enough (even help fill in), but I can’t for the life of me remember what kind of boat this is. It’s the top left yellow fiberglass canoe with the really wide beam, click on ‘canoes’ in the left frame on: http://members.aol.com/Froggie405/ It is really light, under 500.00, a price I would like to see on a fiberglass sea kayak… really light.  extremely stable.  pretty well made.  Roomy enough to fit that last fish that got away. The owner of the shop is on the list and could identify it for you. He could also prbably tell you where to find it in your area. — gabriel l romeu http://members.aol.com/romeug     studio furniture http://members.aol.com/romeugp    paintings, photos, prints, etc. http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR  a daily photo journal

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You know, I took the photograph, I am in the store enough (even help fill in), but I can’t for the life of me remember what kind of boat this is. It’s the top left yellow fiberglass canoe with the really wide beam, click on ‘canoes’ in the left frame on: http://members.aol.com/Froggie405/ It is really light, under 500.00, a price I would like to see on a fiberglass sea kayak… really light.  extremely stable.  pretty well made.  Roomy enough to fit that last fish that got away. The owner of the shop is on the list and could identify it for you. He could also prbably tell you where to find it in your area.

It might be the We-No-Nah Fisherman, the 14′ is good for one, 16′ for two.  Quite light in Tuf-Weave, lighter still in Kevlar.  Very stable but not terribly slow.  Great Outdoor Provision Company in North Carolina used to stock them.  Call the Raleigh location for the best selection. — Delete all the occurences of the letter q to reply. — Andrew (no q) Gooding

Response:

Here’s this years advice. For the weight you will have to get a kevlar boat. For initial stability for fly fishing I would suggest at least 36 inches wide. If it is only going to be used for day trips there is no point in anything over 16 feet long. There are lots of manufacturers that make something in this area. Sincerely, Carey Robson President – Recreational Canoeing Association of British Columbia Master Instructor http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/CanoeBC     Here are the facts. I am 70 years old and an avid fly fisherman. I am     looking for a canoe I can fish from (stability), doesn`t weigh over 55     lbs (liftability by me). The canoe will mostly be used in lakes and     ponds and large slow moving rivers. I am not budget conscious but do not     want to have to give up a gold bar for this item. Please help

Response:

You may want to consider a sportspal canoe. They have some very stable stuff around 12 to 14 feet, excellent for fishing. If you don’t mind the price a kevlar is also a good canoe. One person wrote that you will want to keep it somewhat wide, that will help with the stability.

    Here are the facts. I am 70 years old and an avid fly fisherman. I am     looking for a canoe I can fish from (stability), doesn`t weigh over 55     lbs (liftability by me). The canoe will mostly be used in lakes and     ponds and large slow moving rivers. I am not budget conscious but do not     want to have to give up a gold bar for this item. Please help

Response:

Wardensworry, you need to check into Merrimack Canoes out of Crossville, Tenn. These are very beautiful  wood (ash&cherry) and fiberglas hand layup canoes And the company  will get you a boat pretty much whereever you are. Randy Pew is the owner(&Grandson of founder) and can be called at 931-484-4556. His boats aren’t cheap but once you see one you’ll wonder why they’re not more.They are  not for whitewater but flyfishing and tripping. Ask him about his Osprey and Tennessean, they sound like what you’re looking for.. I’m not a salesman or affiliated w/ Merrimack, just a friend of Randy’s and an admirer of his work.         Barnett

Response:

Depending upon where you are located, we carry the Northern Paddler line of glass canoes. They make a 10′6" model with a 40" beam. We have one in stock in yellow at $489.00. This would fit your stability and weight requirements. This is a solo boat. If interested, we are in Bordentown, NJ. Paint Island Canoe & Kayak. If you are in the east, there may be a dealer in your area. Give us a call. 609-324-8200 www.riversport.com/paintisland/

Response:

Question:

Hello, I will have occassion to travel to Montana in September or October of this year.   can anyone suggest spots to flyfish – is that a reasonable time of ear to fish in those places? any info would be helpful: please email to either: or thanks, earl "So having said, a while he stood, expecting  Their universal shout and high applause  To fill his ear; when, contrary, he hears,  On all sides from innumerable tongues  A dismal universal hiss, the sound  Of public scorn."                 Paradise Lost. Book 10 (lines 504 – 509)                           John Milton

Response:

The Mo. below Wolf Creek would be a good place to fish. Also walking in to the ponds in the Pintlars or Pioneers would also be fun. You would need to be mindful of snow.

Response:

Try the Big Hole in September between Wisdom and Wise River.  Accessible and pretty good fishing.

Response:

Question:

I recently posted a question regarding Scott Alpha poles. Thanks to all that replied. Since then I’ve been looking at the ST. Croix Legend Ultra which is also in the same price category. I already own a ST. Croix Imperial and I think it’s a good rod. I was wondering if anyone has any opinion regarding the differences between the 5wt 3 piece Scott Alpha and the 5wt 4 piece St.Croix Legend Ultra? Which do you think is a better quality pole? Ron

Response:

Hi, I couple of weeks ago I fished the Gunnison in the Black Hole area. The outfitter supplied me with a 9′ 5 wgt. St. Croix Legend Ultra.  I found it to be an excellent rod, one which handled many of the Gunnison’s best fish that weekend.  I was very favorably impressed by the rod. I never tried a Scott so I wouldn’t know.  I will, hawever, give the St. Croix two thumbs up! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recently posted a question regarding Scott Alpha poles. Thanks to all that replied. Since then I’ve been looking at the ST. Croix Legend Ultra which is also in the same price category. I already own a ST. Croix Imperial and I think it’s a good rod. I was wondering if anyone has any opinion regarding the differences between the 5wt 3 piece Scott Alpha and the 5wt 4 piece St.Croix Legend Ultra? Which do you think is a better quality pole? Ron

Response:

Which do you think is a better quality pole? Ron

Scott, by far in my experience. Bob

Response:

Next January I will be traveling to Costa Rica to do some fly fishing.  I was wandering if anybody could give me some clues on where to go, what to fish for, and what to use.  I’m open to any ideas.  Thank you. Ole Buch Humboldt State University Arcata, CA

Response:

Question:

This summer I fished the interior of B.C.,I came across a small flyshop out of 100 mile house that was selling weird looking leaders. The leaders had a clear rubber section in it about 6 in. Has anybody seen this type of leader before? What is it’s advantage or disadvantages? I think they look like a gimmic,since they were $6.00 Canadian for a single pack. -I fish because I love to; because I love the environs where trout are found, which are invariably beautiful….and….not because I regard fishing as so terribly important, but because I suspect that so many of the other concerns of men are equally unimportant and not nearly so much fun…. R.Traver

Response:

Frank: It’s probably a version of a "bungee-type" leader used to land big fish on small tippets. The "rubber" absorbs the shock and allows you to fight a heavier fish than you normally would if the "rubber" wasn’t there. The concept is used quite often by those trying for International Game Fish Assoc. (IGFA) records with 2# or 4# tippets. RIO sells small spools of the "bungee" material, so you can construct your own custom leaders. Hope this helps. Bob E. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This summer I fished the interior of B.C.,I came across a small flyshop out of 100 mile house that was selling weird looking leaders. The leaders had a clear rubber section in it about 6 in. Has anybody seen this type of leader before? What is it’s advantage or disadvantages? I think they look like a gimmic,since they were $6.00 Canadian for a single pack.

Response:

This summer I fished the interior of B.C.,I came across a small flyshop out of 100 mile house that was selling weird looking leaders. The leaders had a clear rubber section in it about 6 in. Has anybody seen this type of leader before? What is it’s advantage or disadvantages? I think they look like a gimmic,since they were $6.00 Canadian for a single pack. -I fish because I love to; because I love the environs where trout are found, which are invariably beautiful….and….not because I regard fishing as so terribly important, but because I suspect that so many of the other concerns of men are equally unimportant and not nearly so much fun…. R.Traver

Rio makes the Shock Gum leaders and sells spools of the Shock Gum. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

Response:

That sound like a shock leader to be.  Some fishermen here in Oregon when fishing for hard striking fish like sea-run cutthroat or Kokanee will include in their gear a 6 inch section of rubber tubing that will strech and absorb the shock of a hard strike instead of snapping the leader. -Burton – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This summer I fished the interior of B.C.,I came across a small flyshop out of 100 mile house that was selling weird looking leaders. The leaders had a clear rubber section in it about 6 in. Has anybody seen this type of leader before? What is it’s advantage or disadvantages? I think they look like a gimmic,since they were $6.00 Canadian for a single pack. -I fish because I love to; because I love the environs where trout are found, which are invariably beautiful….and….not because I regard fishing as so terribly important, but because I suspect that so many of the other concerns of men are equally unimportant and not nearly so much fun…. R.Traver

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -That sound like a shock leader to be.  Some fishermen here in Oregon when fishing for hard striking fish like sea-run cutthroat or Kokanee will include in their gear a 6 inch section of rubber tubing that will strech and absorb the shock of a hard strike instead of snapping the leader. -Burton This summer I fished the interior of B.C.,I came across a small flyshop out of 100 mile house that was selling weird looking leaders. The leaders had a clear rubber section in it about 6 in. Has anybody seen this type of leader before? What is it’s advantage or disadvantages? I think they look like a gimmic,since they were $6.00 Canadian for a single pack. -I fish because I love to; because I love the environs where trout are found, which are invariably beautiful….and….not because I regard fishing as s

Used to be a company out of Montana called Beartooth that sold a leader with a short clear rubber like section tied into a braided leader. I had a couple. Idea was to provide stretch and reduce tippet breaks. I haven’t seen these for a while and after using them I short regarded them as Rube Goldberg devices; impressive but of no real value or utility. Ralph H

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That sound like a shock leader to be.  Some fishermen here in Oregon when What is it’s advantage or disadvantages? I think they look like a gimmic,since they were $6.00 Canadian for a single pack. -I fish because I love to; because I love the environs where trout are found, which are invariably beautiful….and….not because I regard fishing as s Used to be a company out of Montana called Beartooth that sold a leader with a short clear rubber like section tied into a braided leader. I had a couple. Idea was to provide stretch and reduce tippet breaks. I haven’t seen these for a while and after using them I short regarded them as Rube Goldberg devices; impressive but of no real value or utility. Ralph H

I seem to remember a humor column in one of the fishing magazines a few years back where the hero invents a leader that has stretch in it to protect his tippets.  The first thing he caught with it was a rattle snake.   Quite humorous all of his antics to try to break of a angry snake.   Patrick McManus?  Maybe, I don’t really remember. Steve My Rod and Reel They comfort me.

Response:

Question:

I doubt if you’d be safe from commercial sex site solicitations even at rec.fly-fishing.

   - uh…you said `Fly’ –

Response:

I doubt if you’d be safe from commercial sex site solicitations even at rec.fly-fishing.

Hey, I’d not object to a jpg of christine in some hip waders… TimW

Response:

Question:

Hello Ron, and welcome          Forget the Rouge River. Its closer to an industrial waste carrier than a habitat for any life. Probably your closest shot to a local place is Paint Creek in Rochester, or the Huron River near Wixom, at the Proud Lake Recreation area.       Tight lines,       Damian

Response:

Hi Ron, If you are going to be here in April,  and you don’t mind catching and releasing planted Browns, then bring your stuff.  There is a place that is less than 30 minutes from Southfield. Tight Lines, Henry

: I have to go to Southfield Michigan on business this month.  Are there : any good fly shops in the area?   : My maps show the "River Rouge" going through this area.  Any good : fishing, or would I have to worry about the river catching on fire? : Any urban anglers out there that can help this Boardman River : fisherman? : Ron : : : Hello Ron, : : There are a (at least) 2 good fly shops near Southfield: : : 1) The Riverbend, 313-350 8484, Southfield :    29229 Northw. Hwy (north of 12 mile Road) : : 2) Bueters Outdoors, 810-349 3677, Northville, :    120 E Main Street (8 mile Rd x Novi Rd) : : I am new to this area myself so I don’t know much about : the fishing in the "River Rouge". : Good luck / Stefan

Response:

Question:

My cocern with Pike would be ythe necessity to use some sort of wire leader to defeat the teeth.   While I’ve never caught one one a fly rod I have caught them on lures and a steel leader is necessary. But what a fight it would be!

        Appropos to the pike and steel leader, last summer I was fishing off a dock in the Rideau River near here. I usually fish trout in lakes and was using a 3# tippet with a small nondescript green wet fly, about #12. I was trying for bass, I think a #7 rod and line. Anyway, I had a hard strike and very soon realized that it was no bass but a small muskie, about 36". Well, I had no expectations whatsoever of landing the fish but fought on valiantly anyway until the fish decided to go under the dock. My attempt to pass the rod under failed and I lost the fish when the line caught in the dock and the tippet-fly knot failed.         What I gathered from all of this is that the fish was hooked in the corner of the mouth and as a consequence, the teeth did not have an opportunity to touch the tippet. I have not been back to the spot again to attempt to test the theory but hope to this summer.         Earlier last year, in attempting to entice a pike in the Ottawa River, I had tied up some gaudy attractor flies on #6 X4 long shanks with a relatively fine coated braided steel snell. Even with the heaviest leaders, these were at the upper level of weight for casting and it was this experience that led me to try the Rideau without a steel tippet. —

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My cocern with Pike would be ythe necessity to use some sort of wire leader to defeat the teeth.  

I’ve caught a lot of them on flies and yes a wire leader is a necessity if you actually intend to land them. Not to say you can’t catch them without the wire, but they tend to snip off even heavy mono tippets. Keep it short, 6" or so and you should be fine. Now if you _REALLY_ want to try something scary, try them out of a float tube!!! The bigger ones are _quite_ interesting to handle in your lap! *** Lance

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Hi All. Pike on a fly rod are *GREAT*!  Here are my suggestions. 1) 7 wt or heavier.  Make sure that you have backing on the reel, and that the drag is smooth.  Trust me on this one.  Most of the time you won’t need it, but every now and then, watch out. 2) You should (must?) use some kind of a shock tippet.  Either wire or 25-50 lb mono.  I used to use about 6" tied to the end of a 0x leader. 3) Generally, use large streamers.  Sometimes the gaudy ones work, sometimes the more realistic ones.  Big muddlers are great.  Mickey Finns are also good.  Size depends somewhat on where you are fishing, but a 15" pike will be able to eat just about anything you throw at it, so size 2 or bigger is not out of the question.  Pike get much bigger than this of course. 4) Fish the streamer in sharp fast jerks along the edges of weedbeds. The strike is usually brutal, but somethimes the pike will just follow the fly right up to the point at which you make the next cast, then nail it just as you start your backcast.  This almost always loses a fly.  Oh well, it’s worth it. Have fun.  By the way, watch out for the teeth – the bites are painful. Regards, John — Dr. John G. Hardie Indiana University Cyclotron Facility

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Pike can be very interesting. Several years ago I was prowling the banks of the North Saskatchewan River (inside the city of Edmonton) and I saw a group of anglers all kind of excited. It was near noon on a bright day in June and some of the group were wearing polarized glasses. They had spotted a fair-sized Pike just hanging in the slack water just past the drop off. They had tried to get a reaction from a whole bunch of spoons, jigs and bait. The old slough-shark just hung there like in mid-air and just ignored everything.  I had a #7 fly-rod and a rather ugly- looking muddler which I had attempted to tie. I was not using any special leader or anything. I catch a lot of pike on jigs with no leader and don’t lose that many because they seem to take it on the lip. Anyway it was no big deal to cast to the pike because he was just six or eight feet from the bank. Maybe the bright light made it hard for him to see because he just basked and didn’t move. I let the muddler drift by him a couple of times and he just ignored it. I them let it drift near his nose and gave it a couple of short, sharp jerks. He nailed it. It was quite a fight. River pike just seem to have a lot more in them than the ones in our prairie lakes. He was about four pounds and a lot of fun to play. He had swallowed the fly and the leader went to the side of his mouth and missed the teeth. I would have let him go but the fly had caused some major bleeding. I gave him to one of the chinese fellows who spotted him in the first place. It is kind of neat to think that fly fishing can be the best way to take a pike. (ps If this message isn’t too clear, please forgive as it is my first posting to a newsgroup)

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You also might try some saltwater streamers, particularly Lefty’s Deceivers. And for a good idea of how to construct a steel tippet, check out a saltwater flyfishing book to see what’s used for bluefish, which have teeth even nastier than a Great Northern’s.

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Pike with a fly?

The largest "trout" I ever caught turned out to be an 11 pound Northern. I was fishing the Wolf river in Wisconsin (nymphs) and thought I had hooked a world record Brown. Great fight. Labbe

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I’ve heard that Duramax kevlar braided stuff probably won’t cut on a pike’s teeth, although it makes a crappy leader because it’s so limp. How about 2 feet of it as tippet, anyone ever used it for pike? In a few lakes out here, pike and pelicans are really doing a number on the trout populations, I’ve heard of people throwing the pike to the pelicans (when they’re of legal size, we have slot limits on pike most lakes) to feed the pelicans and reduce the number of predator fish. First time I saw a pelican in the rocky mountains, I sure did a double take… — Cray Computer Corporation    http://www.craycos.com/~ferguson/ferguson.html Colorado Springs, CO                                     Solely my opinions

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Fear not about "clarity", first poster. Your story was nice, concise, and fun! Thanks. — David A. Calderisi

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Wayne Trzyna writes: I don’t know whether C&R kills fish or not, but it sure makes ‘em nervous. Nonetheless, I think that C&R is not as hard on the resource as catch & keep. There are some very productive C&R fisheries located next to major population centers.  (Productive, that is, if one is skilled in outsmarting extremely nervous fish.)  I know of no such heavily fished but productive C&K fisheries (except during the first several hours after the hatchery truck drives away).

Well said. Love those Nervous fish !

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Charles Nahm writes: I can’t believe that 2% of Pat’s catch is killed!  Responsible C&R with artificial bait  should result in much lower kills than that depending on hook type & size and handling technique.  Throwing fish over your shoulder probable doesn’t count as responsible C&R. I saw this technique recently on a fishing show. As a fly fisherman I can’t remember the last fish I had die.   I guess maybe I’ve had a few on large streamers.  Way under 1 in a thousand though.   One thing you may have overlooked and that Pat Heron may have been factoring in Chip, is the fact that not all catch and release deaths are immediate.  If a fish receives serious stress from a prolonged struggle, it may be liable to swim away after you release it and die somewhere else in the lake.  Although it is very admirable on your part to desire or attain to a 99.9% successful release rate.

Pat never claimed that 2% of his fish die with C&R.  Pat’s name was invoked by someone using his catch record as a justification or rationalization for keeping fish. A serious C&R fisherman never prolongs the struggle.  Even +20 inch trout on size 20 flys can be landed in a few minutes by a skilled angler.  Again if you release the fish slowly (I’ve held fish for 5 minutes or more and had them rest in the lee of my boot for another five minutes) in gentle water your kill rate will be much less than 2%.  "Lassen Trout" a trophy pond (stocking genetically altered trophy trout in a couple of ponds) estimates their losses at under 0.2% (These are fish that are in the 22 inch to + 10 pound range).  They’ve been operating for several years so they got pretty good data by now.  They’ve got a large investment in these fish, they have to know how to manage their resource.

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I haven’t followed this whole thread because I was fishing in Montana when it started, but I would like to contribute a thought I proposed in our local TU newsletter a couple years ago. Most people who responded supported the idea, but it hasn’t really led to anything yet. I proposed that people who want to fish blue-ribbon, C&R waters should have to pay a slightly higher license fee, and that the additional revenue from that fee should support hatchery programs. I reason thus: planting more trout in heavily fished streams close to the cities would encourage the "yahoos" (as one poster described them) to fish nearer home to fill their freezers. Those same people would probably not pay the higher fee to go farther to catch fish they couldn’t keep. Now, some might object that those of us who supposedly care more about protecting the "natural" resource shouldn’t have to pay more than those who would simply rape and pillage, especially to support their habit. I don’t disagree, but I think we have to recognize some realities. We’ll never turn all trout streams into blue ribbon streams, and the demand for kill your limit and higher limits will continue to put political pressure on fish and game departments (in some states at least) to resist too much quality fishing as the rest of us define it. I look at it as willingness to pay for a privilege. Any thoughts? gc

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says: I guess that put and take locations help keep the yahoos out of the more restricted locations. The yahoos (your term) do their share of filling their stringers but in many cases this is important because these C&K streams often don’t have the water quality past early summer to support trout.  The yahoos do an efficient job of cleaning out the trout before the hot weather takes over.

Anyone who spends his free time trying to outsmart creatures with an immeasurably small IQ is a yahoo.  ’Guess that includes all of us. — -Wayne Trzyna

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Wayne, YAHOO!!!!!  The bottom line…we all qualify.                                 Scott

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I proposed that people who want to fish blue-ribbon, C&R waters should have to pay a slightly higher license fee, and that the additional revenue from that fee should support hatchery programs. I reason thus: planting more trout in heavily fished streams close to the cities would encourage the "yahoos" (as one poster described them) to fish nearer home to fill their freezers. Those same people would probably not pay the higher fee to go farther to catch fish they couldn’t keep. Now, some might object that those of us who supposedly care more about protecting the "natural" resource shouldn’t have to pay more than those who would simply rape and pillage, especially to support their habit. I don’t disagree, but I think we have to recognize some realities. We’ll never turn all trout streams into blue ribbon streams, and the demand for kill your limit and higher limits will continue to put political pressure on fish and game departments (in some states at least) to resist too much quality fishing as the rest of us define it. I look at it as willingness to pay for a privilege. Any thoughts?

Anyone, can pay an extra fee for the privilege to fish a blue ribbon fee. That doesn’t guarentee that the person is more concerned about protecting the natural resource.  How about requireing that applicant for the special privileges license answer a few questions about preserving.  Sort of a drivers license for fishing.  If someone is going to allowed access to a blue ribbon stream, they should at least know the proper technique for releasing fish so that it may be there another day.   John

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I have just a little bit more to add to the C&R thread. Suppose Pat Heron catches 1000 fish a year, and releases them all like a good guy, and he’s careful so 98% of them survive. That’s 20 dead fish per year. Now I catch well under 100 fish per year (*well*). Why should I feel guilty if I kill 10 of them? I’m not being nearly as hard on the resource as Pat. -Not catching too many fish in New Jersey, and proud of it too! -john — John Danskin                    | Computer Science Graduate Student (609) 258-5386                  | Graphics systems: network graphics & m-media (609) 258-1771 fax              | Escape from Princeton planned 8/94.

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-Not catching too many fish in New Jersey, and proud of it too!

Hence the reason some want to put bag limits on CAR. Though too complex to implement, water temps and flows certainly have an effect on CAR mortality, and should probably determine the limit. Reasonable anglers regulate themselves already. Thomas Gilg

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| | I have just a little bit more to add to the C&R thread. | | Suppose Pat Heron catches 1000 fish a year, and releases them | all like a good guy, and he’s careful so 98% of them survive. | | That’s 20 dead fish per year. | | Now I catch well under 100 fish per year (*well*). Why should | I feel guilty if I kill 10 of them? I’m not being nearly as hard | on the resource as Pat. | | -Not catching too many fish in New Jersey, and proud of it too! | -john John, You are exactly RIGHT.  If keeping 10 fish/year will harm a resource, then no one should probably be fishing there anyway. A guy who golfs at the same golfcourse every day will probably dig it up more in a year than a guy who golfs 4 times a year.   However, the golfing fantatic may also be alot more consciencious about how he treats the grounds because it is his major avocation.  In the case of fishing, the avid angler may be more likely to belong to or contribute to organizations (such as NCWF) which actively seek to protect and improve resources.  I will add that I have not seen any *floaters* from the fish that I have released this year (although some may die later).   I wonder what the statistics are on catch-immediate release vs.  catch – livewell – tournament weigh-in-release. If the tourney boys claim 98-percent, certainly immediate release is somewhat better. I also think that in the summer in the South, 98-percent survival is a bit too generous.  When the water gets into the 90’s there is damn little 02 disolved.  I feel that when you hook a bass in 20ft of water in the summer, they are in cooler slightly more oxygenated water.  Still 02 is low, and the fish quickly aquires a severe oxygen debt during the fight.  When this severly stressed bass is returned to the hottest surface layer, they can have trouble. This problem is compounded if the fish goes into the sizzling hot livewell (B.A.S.S. recommends that you ice down your livewell and use continuous aeration in the summer). After weigh-ins at local tournaments there are often several floaters.  The smart clubs police the release location and pick up the fish who don’t make it so as not to add fuel to the fire of public sentiment against tournament angling. Not catching that many in NC lately either and damn embarrased…                         -Pat. BTW, can anyone recommend a good captain/boat for a tuna/dolphin (aka dorado) charter out of NC?

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says: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (wayne trzyna) writes: | I don’t know whether C&R kills fish or not, but it sure makes ‘em nervous. | Nonetheless, I think that C&R is not as hard on the resource as catch &    . keep | There are some very productive C&R fisheries located next to major         n populatio | centers.  (Productive, that is, if one is skilled in outsmarting extremely | nervous fish.)  I know of no such heavily fished but productive C&K        s fisherie | (except during the first several hours after the hatchery truck drives     . away) | | — | | -Wayne Trzyna Wayne, This sounds like sports fishing at its best.  Why not cut out the middle-man and allow anglers to fish in the back of the DNR truck? I guess that put and take locations help keep the yahoos out of the more restricted locations.                        -Pat.

COUPLE OF THOUGHTS:  In Pennsylvania the DER spends huge amounts managing C&K fisheries.  They work very well and the state has a close-to-religious experience with the opening of trout season (deer season also).  The kids are out of school and many people use a vacation day to skip work (or get a mysterious illness that coincides with opening day). The yahoos (your term) do their share of filling their stringers but in many cases this is important because these C&K streams often don’t have the water quality past early summer to support trout.  The yahoos do an efficient job of cleaning out the trout before the hot weather takes over. I would say (in our area) that this fishery helps to cut down on those inclined to violate the special regs areas.  We have a full gamut of special regs waters including entire streams of C&R, flyfish only, trophy waters etc. The good part of all this:  most of the early season "fishermen" hang up their equipment about the time the good hatches start!!  I’ve also spent some great opening weekends on special regs waters without seeing another person…and catching many more (and better quality) fish than I could in a stocked stream. Around here we tend to use the stocked streams as entertainment.  Always fun to watch the people struggle with each other, fish the kids out of the water after falling in, …you get the idea.  Scott Maitland

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| I don’t know whether C&R kills fish or not, but it sure makes ‘em nervous. | Nonetheless, I think that C&R is not as hard on the resource as catch & keep. | There are some very productive C&R fisheries located next to major population | centers.  (Productive, that is, if one is skilled in outsmarting extremely | nervous fish.)  I know of no such heavily fished but productive C&K fisheries | (except during the first several hours after the hatchery truck drives away). | | — | | -Wayne Trzyna Wayne, This sounds like sports fishing at its best.  Why not cut out the middle-man and allow anglers to fish in the back of the DNR truck? I guess that put and take locations help keep the yahoos out of the more restricted locations.                         -Pat.

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Suppose Pat Heron catches 1000 fish a year, and releases them all like a good guy, and he’s careful so 98% of them survive. That’s 20 dead fish per year. Now I catch well under 100 fish per year (*well*). Why should I feel guilty if I kill 10 of them? I’m not being nearly as hard on the resource as Pat.

I can’t believe that 2% of Pat’s catch is killed!  Responsible C&R with artificial bait  should result in much lower kills than that depending on hook type & size and handling technique.  Throwing fish over your shoulder probable doesn’t count as responsible C&R. I saw this technique recently on a fishing show. As a fly fisherman I can’t remember the last fish I had die.   I guess maybe I’ve had a few on large streamers.  Way under 1 in a thousand though.  

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| | This problem is compounded if the fish goes into the sizzling hot | | livewell (B.A.S.S. recommends that you ice down your livewell and | | use continuous aeration in the summer). | | I wonder about icing down your livewell too. I put a live pickerel into | an ice chest full of water and ice, and it died (convulsions and then nothing) | pretty much instantly. Temperature shocks in either direction can be harmful. | I guess you just have to use common sense when you decide hom much ice to | put in. I just wanted my pickerel to last until dinner time, and he (she it) | lasted just as well dead as he (she it) would have lasted alive. | | -john I agree,  I don’t think that pulling a bass from a 90f weedbed and throwing it into a 40f livewell (later to be released into 92f surface water) will do the bass alot of good. I also have had trouble with chain pickerel in the warmer months.  I have had several die while trying to practice C&R. I have found that they (along with lure of course) can get really tangled in a landing net having a fabric bag.  The little bit of time it takes to untangle them can be long enough for asphixiation. They can often be released much more quickly if landed by hand.  This exercise is not without its own perils.  I still laugh when I remember John sitting in the boat with the front treble of a Mann’s baby 1- stuck through his pants and into his leg, the back treble was in the mouth of a wildly thrashing 26-inch chain pickerel. (This was even more entertaining then the time when John was helping me remove the hook from a 7# channel cat, the cat grabbed his thumb and rolled and sprained his thumb).                         -Pat.

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It would be interesting to rank the relative importance of:      1. Hook selection            - single or treble            - wire diameter            - hook size      2. Playing time  **        - build up of acids            - exhaustion      3. Damage caused during fight            - damage from line strafing fish                 – body  **             – gills            - damage from fish hitting bottom or hard splash-downs            - setting hook to hard on small fish and launching them              airborne    Smolts especially susceptable.      4. Water conditions  *         – temperature            - pollution            - flow  *         – oxygenation      5. Condition of fish            - prespawn, postspawn, other times            - natural ability to handle stress      6. Handling of fish  *         – contact with gills  **        - damage to slime layer  *         – grip pressure resulting in internal damage  **        - time out of water – exposure to air            - damage caused from removing hook      7. Angler recovery period            - technique used for release      8. Post-Angler recovery period            - predators taking advantage of recovering fish  **        - Continued acid buildup and eventual recovery from Single "*" items seem to be touted in most CAR literature, and the "**" items have been called out in reports/studies I’ve seen as major factors. The better CAR studies track the fish for *days* after release, since most CAR mortality happens long after (12 hrs to 2 or 3 days) the angler releases the fish – even the zippy releases often turn fatal because of the continuing chemical buildups *after* CAR. Thomas Gilg

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Treble hooks should be banned, if anything.

I’ll second that!                                 Mark — <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Harris Space Systems            ::                         Melbourne, FL

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| This problem is compounded if the fish goes into the sizzling hot | livewell (B.A.S.S. recommends that you ice down your livewell and | use continuous aeration in the summer). I wonder about icing down your livewell too. I put a live pickerel into an ice chest full of water and ice, and it died (convulsions and then nothing) pretty much instantly. Temperature shocks in either direction can be harmful. I guess you just have to use common sense when you decide hom much ice to put in. I just wanted my pickerel to last until dinner time, and he (she it) lasted just as well dead as he (she it) would have lasted alive. -john

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Though too complex to implement, water temps and flows certainly have an effect on CAR mortality, and should probably determine the limit. Reasonable anglers regulate themselves already.

How fish are handled has more to do with mortality than total number of fish caught and released.  At least, that is my intuition.   Treble hooks should be banned, if anything. — -Wayne Trzyna

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