Question:

I’ll be going to Deschutes and Waterton-Glacier park in Montana. Does anyone know of any good fly shops near by and some good trout streams? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Ron

Response:

I’ll be going to Deschutes and Waterton-Glacier park in Montana. Does anyone know of any good fly shops near by and some good trout streams? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Ron

Er . . . There is a Deschutes River in Oregon (and a smaller Deschutes River in Washington), but I don’t know of a "Deschutes" in Montana?  If its the one in Oregon, there is a fine shop in Maupin, but if you are fishing the mouth from where the Deschutes meets the Columbia, you need to get your stuff in Portland (Kaufmans Streamborn in Beaverton?) or if coming down from Washington (I-5?) then Angler’s Workshop in Woodland is your best bet. As to the Waterton-Glacier area . . . I don’t know. Dave

Response:

Dave, that wasn’t very clear. I should have said Deschutes OR and Waterton-Glacier Mt. Ron

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll be going to Deschutes and Waterton-Glacier park in Montana. Does anyone know of any good fly shops near by and some good trout streams? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Ron Er . . . There is a Deschutes River in Oregon (and a smaller Deschutes River in Washington), but I don’t know of a "Deschutes" in Montana?  If its the one in Oregon, there is a fine shop in Maupin, but if you are fishing the mouth from where the Deschutes meets the Columbia, you need to get your stuff in Portland (Kaufmans Streamborn in Beaverton?) or if coming down from Washington (I-5?) then Angler’s Workshop in Woodland is your best bet. As to the Waterton-Glacier area . . . I don’t know. Dave

Response:

Question:

I learned a long time ago that the one and only, guaranteed, always correct response to anything that anyone says about fly fishing is "Well, I thought it was "lots of little brookies," when asked, "how’s the fishing on this stream?"

The correct response to QUESTIONS is, "Not much, …..you?"

Response:

The correct response to QUESTIONS is, "Not much, …..you?"

or.."a little slow." but it’s been my experience that once the words, "lots of little brookies" have been uttered, they stop asking questions. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyo Before you buy.

Response:

The correct response to QUESTIONS is, "Not much, …..you?" or.."a little slow." but it’s been my experience that once the words, "lots of little brookies" have been uttered, they stop asking questions.

Wouldn’t work here.  In northern WI and the Upper Peninsula of MI "lots of little brookies" is exactly what Bubba is stalking.  You can keep ‘em at seven inches.

Response:

1. "It’s not worth getting up early for stream fishing. The fish bite better after the water warms." Directly related to the number of drinks around the fire the night before

"Dawn is a time of the greatest biological drift." Not sure about biological drift, but catching fish or not, there is no finer time astream.

2. "Cover lots of water types in order to determine the fishes’ feeding pattern" I do this when I’m nervous or upset.

"Find an area that will hold fish and fish it thoroughly from top to bottom, changing flies and sizes until you find what the fish want." And this when totally relaxed and focused.

3. If during a hatch you’re not getting any interest in your fly: "drop down a size." "put on a large attractor pattern like a Coachman." "swim a streamer through the feeding fish" "change positions in order to get a better presentation." All true and I tend to do them in this very order.

4. "Fishermen try to get too close to the fish, I don’t like to get any closer than 30 feet." Rising brown, spring creek, midges or other small dries.

"I always try and get closer than 30 feet from a feeding fish. 15 or 20 feet is better. Casts over 30 feet are too hard to control." Free stoner stream, wide pool, anxious rainbows, cutts or brookies and a good caddis hatch.

5. "C&R is immoral" Ok

"C&R is THE answer" Sure

"C&K is the destroyer of our fisheries" Don’t be silly

6. "The San Juan isn’t crowded." No doubt there are long sections that see zero anglers. Of course they hold no trout either.

"All special reg waters are crowded." It can seem that way, but if you happen to hit it right….

"Special regs waters are less crowded." See above

7. "The upstream dry is the only way to fish." Some days I practice this and really enjoy it.

"Anything you can cast with a fly rod goes." I’ve cast hoppers and worms and even powerbait with the fly rod.  It ain’t the norm, but I’ve done it.

8. "Stocking is the cause of the problems of our rivers." Fix some – break some – it’s human nature.

"Stocking is our salvation." For many many a lake and plenty of moving water this is true.  Look at New Zealand.  A wonderful result of historic stocking.

9. "Use a short heavy leader for nymphing." For Pyramid lake Lahontans there is no other leader.

"A leader with a very long tippet is the best for nymphing." Closer to the truth for tiny nymphs and sluggish trout.

"The newer commercial leaders makes tying your own obsolete." Unless of course you enjoy tyinig up your leaders.

"Hand tied leaders perform best." Oh yea?  Tell Vinnie.  He was kind enough to give me a new line a few seasons back for my birthday.  He hand tied the leader and it promptly broke on a submarine of a fish out of East Delaney back in 95.  I’ll never forget that fish. Niether will he.

JE * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping.  Smart is Beautiful

Response:

This got me to thinking of other seemly conflicting pieces of advice and information that are given. Below are some that come quickly to mind. Quotes are paraphrases based on my limited memory. [Quotes snipped]

..great stuff Will/Susan, here’s another one..from a former workmate/internet- friend Fred Templin..raised in PA (browntrout country): *when they’re not rising, pull out a grasshopper…  when they refuse that, pull out the dynamite…. steve d.

Response:

I was kneeling at streamside yesterday scanning an area while trying to peer through the surface chop to find some feeding fish, when I looked upstream and noticed another angler shotgunning some pocket water with rapid fire casts. I was struck by the difference in our angling styles. The advice, "You can’t catch a fish with your fly in the air," came to mind. Then I thought of the advice,"You need to spend more time being observant. Look before you fish." This got me to thinking of other seemly conflicting pieces of advice and information that are given. Below are some that come quickly to mind. Quotes are paraphrases based on my limited memory. 1. "It’s not worth getting up early for stream fishing. The fish bite better after the water warms." "Dawn is a time of the greatest biological drift." 2. "Cover lots of water types in order to determine the fishes’ feeding pattern" "Find an area that will hold fish and fish it thoroughly from top to bottom, changing flies and sizes until you find what the fish want." 3. If during a hatch you’re not getting any interest in your fly: "drop down a size." "put on a large attractor pattern like a Coachman." "swim a streamer through the feeding fish" "change positions in order to get a better presentation." 4. "Fishermen try to get too close to the fish, I don’t like to get any closer than 30 feet." "I always try and get closer than 30 feet from a feeding fish. 15 or 20 feet is better. Casts over 30 feet are too hard to control." 5. "C&R is immoral" "C&R is THE answer" "C&K is the destroyer of our fisheries" 6. "The San Juan isn’t crowded." "All special reg waters are crowded." "Special regs waters are less crowded." 7. "The upstream dry is the only way to fish." "Anything you can cast with a fly rod goes." 8. "Stocking is the cause of the problems of our rivers." "Stocking is our salvation." 9. "Use a short heavy leader for nymphing." "A leader with a very long tippet is the best for nymphing." "The newer commercial leaders makes tying your own obsolete." "Hand tied leaders perform best." Willi

Response:

This got me to thinking of other seemly conflicting pieces of advice and information that are given. Below are some that come quickly to mind. Quotes are paraphrases based on my limited memory.

[Quotes snipped] Got a kick outta that.  It should probably serve as a reminder to all of us that flyfishing is definitely not an exact science. What works at one time in one location won’t work at all somewhere/sometime else.  All your quotes are simultaneously both true and false. That’s what makes flyfishing interesting.  If it were any other way, would we all be so psychotic about catching a simple fish?      - Ken — ET1 – Evil Twin #1 "Guilt replaced the fun" – ROFF-Tim "Ethical conduct is purely a personal thing, and the only  arbiter of personal ethics is your own conscience."  - Mike Connor

Response:

1. … 2. … 3. … 4. … 5. … 6. … 7. … 8. … 9. …

Geez Willi, what are you trying to do, waste a whole winters worth of Saturday arguments in one Tuesday afternoon ? — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

William Loehman/Susan Schwarz wrote [a collection of conflicting ideas]. It’s when one of these paradoxes issues forth from the same mouth that things get confusing. By the way, I never heard "6.  The San Juan is’nt crowded" Before my time, I guess. —                                                       -dnc-

Response:

ET1 wrote Got a kick outta that.  It should probably serve as a reminder to all of us that flyfishing is definitely not an exact science. What works at one time in one location won’t work at all somewhere/sometime else.  All your quotes are simultaneously both true and false. That’s what makes flyfishing interesting.  If it were any other way, would we all be so psychotic about catching a simple fish?      - Ken

The almost religious attachment of certain fishers, especially guides, to particular ways of doing things always brings a wry grin when I get contrary information from the next expert I hire.  Just yesterday I read an article about how to get a drag free drift by actually allowing the downstream pointing loop to form as it flows in the current.  (There’s a little more to it than that, but the technique does run contrary to the conventional wisdom).  ("Extending Your Drag-free Drifts" by Curt Trout in Fly Fisherman).

Response:

It’s when one of these paradoxes issues forth from the same mouth that things get confusing. By the way, I never heard "6.  The San Juan is’nt crowded"

In a recent book I read, a guide that worked the Juan actually made the statement, "The myth about the San Juan being too crowded is just a myth." I was glad to read that most of the other guides interviewed in the book felt that over crowding was a real problem on the most popular waters and most were in favor of some restrictions.  One shop actually, on their own, cut down on the number of trips they make on an over used river in their area even though there is a very high demand. Willi

Response:

Willi wrote [a collection of conflicting ideas]. By the way, I never heard "6.  The San Juan is’nt crowded" Before my time, I guess.

Probably uttered by visitors from the South Platte. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyo Before you buy.

Response:

[snipped] Uh oh! William discovered our secret! It’s all over now but the backpedalling…

Response:

While completely nekkid, William Loehman/Susan Schwarz 1. "It’s not worth getting up early for stream fishing. The fish bite better after the water warms." "Dawn is a time of the greatest biological drift."

I imagine it depends on the water temperature at dawn. If its 60, then the fish will probably be happy. And don’t forget that the big browns, LM bass, and some catfishes are nocturnal anyway. "I always try and get closer than 30 feet from a feeding fish. 15 or 20 feet is better. Casts over 30 feet are too hard to control."

If your casting skills are like mine, get within dapping distance. 5. "C&R is immoral"

Let your conscience and your DOW regs be your guide. 6. "The San Juan isn’t crowded."

The South Platte is mobbed. The Gunnison at Almont isn’t. These are all like the famous police oral board question: Can you (shoot a fleeing felon/arrest a drunk)? The correct answer being "It depends upon the circumstances…" "They conferred, as against the Government, the right to be let alone — the most comprehensive of rights…" -Justice Louis Brandeis

Response:

……thinking of other seemly conflicting pieces of advice….

I learned a long time ago that the one and only, guaranteed, always correct response to anything that anyone says about fly fishing is "Well,

Response:

I learned a long time ago that the one and only, guaranteed, always correct response to anything that anyone says about fly fishing is "Well,

I thought it was "lots of little brookies," when asked, "how’s the fishing on this stream?" — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyo Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

I need all the info I can get for a trip to alaska…..outfitters who don’t charge an arm and a leg for a nice time there!!!! I like fishing in general but don’t know what to target while there…..any ideas would be great!!!!! Would be nice to talk with someone who has been there and done it!!! Thanks Jerry S.

Response:

Hi Jerry, I guide on the Kenai Peninsula in the summer months and I thought you might find my site useful…. I cover most of the bases for the Kenai Peninsula area which is about the most economical place to plan a trip in Alaska as you fly right into the Anchorage area without another flight neccessary. You might find the page http:///www.piscatorialpursuits.com/akfishruns.htm particularly useful as it will give you an idea of the fisheries in the area throughout the summer months. If you have any other questions, feel free to contact me at Bob Ball Bob’s Piscatorial Pursuits Alaska and Washington Salmon, Steelhead, and Halibut Fishing http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com "If it’s wild, let it go!" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I need all the info I can get for a trip to alaska…..outfitters who don’t charge an arm and a leg for a nice time there!!!! I like fishing in general but don’t know what to target while there…..any ideas would be great!!!!! Would be nice to talk with someone who has been there and done it!!! Thanks Jerry S.

Response:

Question:

Ralph Cutter has asked me to pass on the following regarding the successful reversal of a watermaster’s draw down plan on the Truckee river which would have seriously damaged the fisheries.  His access is temporarily blocked for technical reasons. Our effort started with an e-mail message from Ralph last Sunday afternoon.  The word was spread via e-mail to lots of fly fishing interests and fisheries biologists.  The next day the watermaster was deluged by phone calls.  The first reaction was stonewalling and the claim that nothing could be done.  By 4:00 p.m., the watermaster had completely capitulated to our request.  Shows what can be done by an intelligently directed and effective effort.  Ralph’s note is copied below: Congratulations! We did it!! I just spoke with the Federal Watermaster Gary Stone and he has developed a revised ramping schedule as follows: 3/17  5:00 pm  1,850 cfs to 1,400 cfs 3/18  7:00 am  1,400 cfs to 1,100 cfs       10:00am 1,100 cfs to 800 cfs       2:00 pm 800 cfs to 500 cfs       6:00 pm 500 cfs to 300 cfs 3/19  7:00 am  300 cfs to 200 cfs       10:00 am 200 cfs to 100 cfs    He asked me to "tell all your flyfishing friends they can stop calling me now."    As you recall the original plan was to cut flows from 1,950 to 1,000 cfs then six hours later cut that to 100 cfs. This morning Gary relented and added a third cut. After all our pressure (and substantial arm twisting by DF&G biologist Stafford Laird) he sat down this afternoon and did what was right.    You saved a fishery. On behalf of the trout, thanks.   -Ralph

Response:

Nice story Dick, Ralph.  Good one! Cheers — Erik Poole

: Ralph Cutter has asked me to pass on the following regarding the : successful reversal of a watermaster’s draw down plan on the Truckee : river which would have seriously damaged the fisheries.  His access is : temporarily blocked for technical reasons. : Our effort started with an e-mail message from Ralph last Sunday : afternoon.  The word was spread via e-mail to lots of fly fishing : interests and fisheries biologists.  The next day the watermaster was : deluged by phone calls.  The first reaction was stonewalling and the : claim that nothing could be done.  By 4:00 p.m., the watermaster had : completely capitulated to our request.  Shows what can be done by an : intelligently directed and effective effort.  Ralph’s note is copied : below: : Congratulations! We did it!! : I just spoke with the Federal Watermaster Gary Stone and he : has developed a revised ramping schedule as follows: : 3/17  5:00 pm  1,850 cfs to 1,400 cfs : 3/18  7:00 am  1,400 cfs to 1,100 cfs :       10:00am 1,100 cfs to 800 cfs :       2:00 pm 800 cfs to 500 cfs :       6:00 pm 500 cfs to 300 cfs : 3/19  7:00 am  300 cfs to 200 cfs :       10:00 am 200 cfs to 100 cfs :    He asked me to "tell all your flyfishing friends they can : stop calling me now." :    As you recall the original plan was to cut flows from : 1,950 to 1,000 cfs then six hours later cut that to 100 cfs. : This morning Gary relented and added a third cut. After all : our pressure (and substantial arm twisting by DF&G biologist : Stafford Laird) he sat down this afternoon and did what was : right. :    You saved a fishery. On behalf of the trout, thanks. :   -Ralph — Burnaby, BC

Response:

Ralph et al on Phones: Well Done!  Once again, Ralph wrestles a python… S.N.

Response:

Question:

Try rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Sorry can’t help you with the hatch.

Response:

: Folks, : Is there a flyfishing newsgroup? If so, would most appreciate the : address. I can’t seem to get my server to list all the available groups. : Thanks and would really appreciate e-mail. : BTW, anyone know what kind of hatch might be going on at a subalpine : lake (9,000) in western Montana? This for a novel I’m writing. rec.outdoors.fishing.fly rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying

Response:

Folks, Is there a flyfishing newsgroup? If so, would most appreciate the address. I can’t seem to get my server to list all the available groups. Thanks and would really appreciate e-mail. BTW, anyone know what kind of hatch might be going on at a subalpine lake (9,000) in western Montana? This for a novel I’m writing.

Response:

Question:

I don’t want to spend $3.50 and up for Clousers (via Orvis or my local shop) and while LL Bean’s got em for $2.25 or so (much more in line), they don’t sell them in 1/0, which is pretty much the size I want.  So, does anyone know a good mailorder source for Clousers at a reasonable price? Thanks!

My friend Jim Dionne at Dirigo Flies says he can help you out, and hit your price range Give him a call at (800) 893-2815 tell him you’re the guy from the internet I told him about.                                         jc

Response:

while LL Bean’s got em for $2.25 or so (much more in line), they don’t sell them in 1/0, which is pretty much the size I want.  So, does anyone know a good mailorder source for Clousers at a reasonable price? Thanks!

Yes I do!  But they only have 2/0, 2, and 6 ($2.25), and the 2/0 only in chartreuse and white (which by the way is my favorite saltwater color!). They are the Fly Fishing Shop in Welches Oregon.  They have a wonderful web site at www.teleport.com/~flyfish  Their number is 503-622-4607. They are pleasure to deal with long distance, and I’m willing to bet they can get you what you want in any color with a little advance notice.  Good luck! Phil

Response:

while LL Bean’s got em for $2.25 or so (much more in line), they don’t sell them in 1/0, which is pretty much the size I want.  So, does anyone know a good mailorder source for Clousers at a reasonable price? Thanks! Yes I do!  But they only have 2/0, 2, and 6 ($2.25), and the 2/0 only in chartreuse and white (which by the way is my favorite saltwater color!). They are the Fly Fishing Shop in Welches Oregon.  They have a wonderful web site at www.teleport.com/~flyfish  Their number is 503-622-4607. They are pleasure to deal with long distance, and I’m willing to bet they can get you what you want in any color with a little advance notice.  Good luck! Phil

I have an on line catalog and have the Clousers in any size and color that you want. You can see my catalog at http://www.surfsouth.com/~jbranham/retailcatalog.html

Response:

I don’t want to spend $3.50 and up for Clousers (via Orvis or my local shop) and while LL Bean’s got em for $2.25 or so (much more in line), they don’t sell them in 1/0, which is pretty much the size I want.  So, does anyone know a good mailorder source for Clousers at a reasonable price? Thanks!

Hello- This is probably not what you want to here, but… I would suggest learning to tie them yourself. Clousers are extremely easy to tie and the materials are cheap. I am not a very fast tyer, and I just turned out 10 in the last hour. I tied them on 3/0 for salt water use (Mustad 3407 hooks at about $7/100). That way you can tie them in any size or color combo you want. Even if you don’t tie now with just a few very basic lessons you can tie clousers. Good Luck! Steve Rosenblum

Response:

I don’t want to spend $3.50 and up for Clousers (via Orvis or my local shop) and while LL Bean’s got em for $2.25 or so (much more in line), they don’t sell them in 1/0, which is pretty much the size I want.  So, does anyone know a good mailorder source for Clousers at a reasonable price? Thanks!

Response:

I don’t want to spend $3.50 and up for Clousers (via Orvis or my local shop) and while LL Bean’s got em for $2.25 or so (much more in line), they don’t sell them in 1/0, which is pretty much the size I want.  So, does anyone know a good mailorder source for Clousers at a reasonable price? Thanks!

Try to get a second hand vice and tie your own. They are the most simple saltwater fly to tie and you can make a hundred for what it costs to buy ten at Orvis prices. Get the cheapest vice you can find at first and THEN decide if you want to keep tying. If so, consider the best vice you can afford and prepare yourself for the plethora of tying materials you will want to buy along with the books, videos and CD-ROMs you will get to learn how to tie. Good Luck,         jmc

Response:

Question:

I am interested in beginnging to use shooting head lines as it seems they would give me a great deal more versatility without having to buy multiple additional spools to hold different types of lines. Can anyone give me a good source for this type of line or is it as I suspect from not seeing them advertised much that I need to build them myself. If this is the case, can you point me in the right direction to learn how to build them? Thanks in advance.

Response:

I am interested in beginnging to use shooting head lines as it seems they would give me a great deal more versatility without having to buy multiple additional spools to hold different types of lines. Can anyone give me a good source for this type of line or is it as I suspect from not seeing them advertised much that I need to build them myself. If this is the case, can you point me in the right direction to learn how to build them? Thanks in advance.

Malcolm, Shooting heads are great for some applications where you want long distance casts to be performed easily. They are less adequate for other applications where you want for instance line control (mending long lines). Meaning shooting heads are mostly used for stillwater and saltwater where distance is essential. To get the most of your outfit, using a stripping basket helps managing the loose line, but takes some time to learn using. I guess you will use it for overhead casting with a single handed rod (shooting heads and two handed rods is something quite different). You can build your shooting heads out of a DT line. If you have, say, a #6-7 rod, the optimum is likely to be about 11 meters shooting head #7. The important thing is to load the rod with the optimum *weight*. It means you will need perhaps more, perhaps less than those 11 meters, depending on the actual weight of the line (there are tolerances in the manufacturing) and the actual rod class. Some people use a higher line class, shortening the head to perhaps 9 meters which gives even longer casts but sacrificing line control even more. Running line: Buy the best running line you can afford (cheap in comparison to WF line). There are 3 basic kind of running lines. -Dacron with a coating similar to floating lines. Actually a level floating line. Nicest to hold. -Braided nylon. Compromise. -Flat monofil. Longer casts, won’t tangle but not so nice to hold. DO NOT use regular monofil! It will tangle. Splice a loop on the end of the runninging line. Fill the reel with as much as you expect to be able to cast. 20 meters running line will do it. 30 meters if you are a very skilled caster. Shooting head: You don’t have to buy the best DT line available, as much of the casting performance is due to the running line properties. To find out the optimum weight for your rod, some testing is needed. 1. Cut the DT into two. Gives you two shooting heads, one spare or as a gift to a friend. 2. Attach the running line and the shooting head temporarily, e.g. with loop connectors. 3. Try the outfit in the backyard or on a lawn. Cut down the shooting head gradually until you get optimum performance. (When casting a shooting head, you don’t really shoot line as with a WF, instead you only have the shooting head and a few inches of shooting line outside the rod tip when letting the line go. 4. When you have found out the optimum weight, splice a loop on the shooting head. 5. Go fishing and check it works OK in practical situations. 6. Use a scale to determine the exact weight of the shooting head, this is useful information when you design your next shooting head (for the same rod). NOTE: Make sure the loops that connect the running line and shooting head run smooth trough the rod guides! The smoothest connection is to sew the lines together, in which case you either need one spool per line or to make the loop connection at the backing. NOTE: To gain distance and be able to turn over larger flies, you may consider shortening the tip of the shooting head. The price is sacrificing presentation, but for windy conditions, this is worth considering. Contact me if you need more info. Good Luck Tord

Response:

I am interested in beginnging to use shooting head lines as it seems they would give me a great deal more versatility without having to buy multiple additional spools to hold different types of lines. Can anyone give me a good source for this type of line or is it as I suspect from not seeing them advertised much that I need to build them myself. If this is the case, can you point me in the right direction to learn how to build them? Thanks in advance.

Scientific Anglers used to ( and likely still do) make a selection of shooting heads that should meet your needs. Buying the heads will be cheaper than making your own. If you are looking for versatility try these trick. Cut the front 10 feet off a WF floating line. Serve a braided mono loop in the end of line. Use 5 to 10 foot sections of sinking line of varying sink rates that match the weight of the main line. Serve loops into the ends of these. Do the same with the floating section removed from the line so you can also switch back to a floating tip. You’ve now got a mutliple tip line that allows quick changes of sink rate. It won’t cast as far as a ST line but you didn’t indcate that was the problem. I’ve been using one of these ‘exchangable’ sink tips lately and am pleased with the casting performance. Some fly shops will set the line up for you and provide a selection of sink tips. Make some enquiries. Ralph H

Response:

I think this guy really did all his home work. Very interesting and accurate info. Thanks for sharing this with all on the group.

….and "thank you" from me, also!  Very helpful info. Wayne — Gallery W http://www.magiccarpet.com/~waynem/G_Over.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip (When casting a shooting head, you don’t really shoot line as with a WF, instead you only have the shooting head and a few inches of shooting line outside the rod tip when letting the line go. <snip It’s interesting how things can go full circle.  I’ve seen advertisements in the non-Fly Fishing world for short, 2-3 feet lengths of "weighted casting line" (read  Shooting Head)  which allow spin fishermen to "cast" flies.  When you think of it, a spool would beat the heck out of a stripping basket for holding "running" line. Just some thoughts. Rick

I guess the "weighted casting line" must have a pretty high density. Must be lead core to have 2-3 feet heavy enough to be cast with a spinning rod… Your suggestion using a spool would imply a pretty large reel, since the shooting head (some 11 meters long) must fit too on the spool. Still, you need to learn to cast a fly line, although this is theoretically feasible with a large capacity spinning reel attached to your fly rod. (I guess you are not thinking about using a casting reel for this purpose…). The point in using a stripping basket is managing 20 meters or more of running line while wading in non-calm water (breaking waves, current) that will drag the line or tangle it. Or, fishing from a boat, to avoid the line tangling in the numerous items that usually are found on deck. Or to prevent the line from getting caught by strong winds… /Tord

Response:

<snip (When casting a shooting head, you don’t really shoot line as with a WF, instead you only have the shooting head and a few inches of shooting line outside the rod tip when letting the line go.

<snip It’s interesting how things can go full circle.  I’ve seen advertisements in the non-Fly Fishing world for short, 2-3 feet lengths of "weighted casting line" (read  Shooting Head)  which allow spin fishermen to "cast" flies.  When you think of it, a spool would beat the heck out of a stripping basket for holding "running" line. Just some thoughts. Rick

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am interested in beginnging to use shooting head lines as it seems they would give me a great deal more versatility without having to buy multiple additional spools to hold different types of lines. Can anyone give me a good source for this type of line or is it as I suspect from not seeing them advertised much that I need to build them myself. If this is the case, can you point me in the right direction to learn how to build them? Thanks in advance. Malcolm, Shooting heads are great for some applications where you want long distance casts to be performed easily. They are less adequate for other applications where you want for instance line control (mending long lines). Meaning shooting heads are mostly used for stillwater and saltwater where distance is essential. To get the most of your outfit, using a stripping basket helps managing the loose line, but takes some time to learn using. I guess you will use it for overhead casting with a single handed rod (shooting heads and two handed rods is something quite different). You can build your shooting heads out of a DT line. If you have, say, a #6-7 rod, the optimum is likely to be about 11 meters shooting head #7. The important thing is to load the rod with the optimum *weight*. It means you will need perhaps more, perhaps less than those 11 meters, depending on the actual weight of the line (there are tolerances in the manufacturing) and the actual rod class. Some people use a higher line class, shortening the head to perhaps 9 meters which gives even longer casts but sacrificing line control even more. Running line: Buy the best running line you can afford (cheap in comparison to WF line). There are 3 basic kind of running lines. -Dacron with a coating similar to floating lines. Actually a level floating line. Nicest to hold. -Braided nylon. Compromise. -Flat monofil. Longer casts, won’t tangle but not so nice to hold. DO NOT use regular monofil! It will tangle. Splice a loop on the end of the runninging line. Fill the reel with as much as you expect to be able to cast. 20 meters running line will do it. 30 meters if you are a very skilled caster. Shooting head: You don’t have to buy the best DT line available, as much of the casting performance is due to the running line properties. To find out the optimum weight for your rod, some testing is needed. 1. Cut the DT into two. Gives you two shooting heads, one spare or as a gift to a friend. 2. Attach the running line and the shooting head temporarily, e.g. with loop connectors. 3. Try the outfit in the backyard or on a lawn. Cut down the shooting head gradually until you get optimum performance. (When casting a shooting head, you don’t really shoot line as with a WF, instead you only have the shooting head and a few inches of shooting line outside the rod tip when letting the line go. 4. When you have found out the optimum weight, splice a loop on the shooting head. 5. Go fishing and check it works OK in practical situations. 6. Use a scale to determine the exact weight of the shooting head, this is useful information when you design your next shooting head (for the same rod). NOTE: Make sure the loops that connect the running line and shooting head run smooth trough the rod guides! The smoothest connection is to sew the lines together, in which case you either need one spool per line or to make the loop connection at the backing. NOTE: To gain distance and be able to turn over larger flies, you may consider shortening the tip of the shooting head. The price is sacrificing presentation, but for windy conditions, this is worth considering. Contact me if you need more info. Good Luck Tord

I think this guy really did all his home work. Very interesting and accurate info. Thanks for sharing this with all on the group. It sounds like you are somewhere in Europe? I agree that shooting heads are great in the right situation, but not all the time. I’m saving this one. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

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Question:

I WAS A LITTLE DISAPPOINTED AT THE SNOBBY ATTITUDE OF THOSE WHOM I ASKED FOR HELP AND ADVICE.

Maybe if you weren’t YELLING at them, they would have been a little more  friendly. Tip: Eliminate drag. When I take less experienced people there, that is usually the biggest problem I have in getting them to catch fish. You need to mend a lot. That’s one of the reasons you see the people in boats catching more fish (there are other reasons). From a boat, you are higher up, and it is easier to eliminate the drag. Plus, the guide will assist you in this process. Using a longer rod will also help, as you can get a more vertical presentation, but it really takes experience to see and understand this drag thing. Good luck, Bill Schudlich Santa Fe, NM

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I WAS A LITTLE DISAPPOINTED AT THE SNOBBY ATTITUDE OF THOSE WHOM I ASKED FOR HELP AND ADVICE. Maybe if you weren’t YELLING at them, they would have been a little more  friendly. Tip: Eliminate drag.

Are you saying that I should leave my bra in the blazer ? Or just wear it on the inside of my vest ? TimW

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ON LABOR DAY I WAS PRIVILEGED TO FISH THE SAN JUAN RIVER. I AM NOT AN EXPERIENCED FLY RODDER BUT AM ANXIOUS TO LEARN. I WAS A LITTLE DISAPPOINTED AT THE SNOBBY ATTITUDE OF THOSE WHOM I ASKED FOR HELP AND ADVICE. EVERY PERSON AROUND ME WAS CATCHING HUGE FISH, JUST LIKE I READ ABOUT. AT 7:00 IN THE EVENING AFTER TRYING ALL DAY I FINALLY HOOKED A 5 LB RAINBOW. WHAT A THRILL. IS THERE ANYONE OUT THERE WHO IS WILLING TO SHARE THIER METHOD FOR CATCHING THESE FINE FISH? I’M SURE YOU CAN IMAGINE MY DAY OF FRUSTRATION. THE TROUT WERE FEEDING VORACIOUSLY ON EMERGERS AND I FELT THAT MY PRESENTATION WASN’T CORRECT. ANY HELP WOULD BE APPRECIATED. EVEN A GUIDE REFERRAL WOULD HELP ON MY NEXT JOURNEY…JOHN Hi John It would be my guess that you were in a situation where "drag" was causing your fly to not act like a natural insect.  Drag happens when the various currents grab your fly line and leader consequently pulling the fly accross the current.  You will need to learn a little about reading the water, what the water does to your fly line & fly, and how to mend to compensate for the waters action on your line. As a guide here in Montana getting inexperienced people to recognize drag is a major part of my job.  Explaining it in person can be a challenge, trying to do so over the net is almost impossible.  I suggest you get with your local fly shop and arrange for lessons on reading the water and how to get a "drag free float."  OR you could join a local fly fishing club and learn from a new friend.  Call the Federation of Fly Fishers at 406-585-7592 for information on a club near you. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog)

EXCELLENT ADVICE! George

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ON LABOR DAY I WAS PRIVILEGED TO FISH THE SAN JUAN RIVER. I AM NOT AN EXPERIENCED FLY RODDER BUT AM ANXIOUS TO LEARN. I WAS A LITTLE DISAPPOINTED AT THE SNOBBY ATTITUDE OF THOSE WHOM I ASKED FOR HELP AND ADVICE. EVERY PERSON AROUND ME WAS CATCHING HUGE FISH, JUST LIKE I READ ABOUT. AT 7:00 IN THE EVENING AFTER TRYING ALL DAY I FINALLY HOOKED A 5 LB RAINBOW. WHAT A THRILL. IS THERE ANYONE OUT THERE WHO IS WILLING TO SHARE THIER METHOD FOR CATCHING THESE FINE FISH? I’M SURE YOU CAN IMAGINE MY DAY OF FRUSTRATION. THE TROUT WERE FEEDING VORACIOUSLY ON EMERGERS AND I FELT THAT MY PRESENTATION WASN’T CORRECT. ANY HELP WOULD BE APPRECIATED. EVEN A GUIDE REFERRAL WOULD HELP ON MY NEXT JOURNEY…JOHN

Hi John It would be my guess that you were in a situation where "drag" was causing your fly to not act like a natural insect.  Drag happens when the various currents grab your fly line and leader consequently pulling the fly accross the current.  You will need to learn a little about reading the water, what the water does to your fly line & fly, and how to mend to compensate for the waters action on your line. As a guide here in Montana getting inexperienced people to recognize drag is a major part of my job.  Explaining it in person can be a challenge, trying to do so over the net is almost impossible.  I suggest you get with your local fly shop and arrange for lessons on reading the water and how to get a "drag free float."  OR you could join a local fly fishing club and learn from a new friend.  Call the Federation of Fly Fishers at 406-585-7592 for information on a club near you. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog)

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ON LABOR DAY I WAS PRIVILEGED TO FISH THE SAN JUAN RIVER. I AM NOT AN EXPERIENCED FLY RODDER BUT AM ANXIOUS TO LEARN. I WAS A LITTLE DISAPPOINTED AT THE SNOBBY ATTITUDE OF THOSE WHOM I ASKED FOR HELP AND ADVICE. EVERY PERSON AROUND ME WAS CATCHING HUGE FISH, JUST LIKE I READ ABOUT. AT 7:00 IN THE EVENING AFTER TRYING ALL DAY I FINALLY HOOKED A 5 LB RAINBOW. WHAT A THRILL. IS THERE ANYONE OUT THERE WHO IS WILLING TO SHARE THIER METHOD FOR CATCHING THESE FINE FISH? I’M SURE YOU CAN IMAGINE MY DAY OF FRUSTRATION. THE TROUT WERE FEEDING VORACIOUSLY ON EMERGERS AND I FELT THAT MY PRESENTATION WASN’T CORRECT. ANY HELP WOULD BE APPRECIATED. EVEN A GUIDE REFERRAL WOULD HELP ON MY NEXT JOURNEY…JOHN

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Question:

Has anyone been able to find fishable water within 2 hours of Denver? I tried several streams in RMNP last weekend but they are all running high and fast. Cheeseman is at about 2000 CFS. The Big Thompson is currently running at about 300CFS below Lake Estes and although I haven’t seen the river at this volume it sounds fishable (?). Any tips would be GREATLY appreciated!

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Has anyone been able to find fishable water within 2 hours of Denver? I tried several streams in RMNP last weekend but they are all running high and fast. Cheeseman is at about 2000 CFS. The Big Thompson is currently running at about 300CFS below Lake Estes and although I haven’t seen the river at this volume it sounds fishable (?). Any tips would be GREATLY appreciated!

Hiya Justin! I have been experiencing the same problems with blown out streams in Colorado until very recently. Upon realizing that any stream attempt was going to be a disaster, I begrudgingly decided to try my hand at some small lakes. Traditionally, I am the worlds WORST lake fisherman with a fly. I usually cannot catch ANYTHING, but I figured that this option was better than drowning in a swollen river. On a whim, I decided to try fishing the lake at the bottom of St. Mary’s Glacier on Saturday. The fishing was SO much fun that I took Monday off from work to do it again. That lake literally boils with rising brookies. Most of the fish are small (5-8 inches), but they aren’t very picky and it is one of the most beautiful spots around. Fishing there was a great confidence booster for me and while the fish weren’t big, they did end the frustration I have been having with my recent river trips. If you haven’t been there before, just take I-70 slightly past Idaho Springs to Fall River Road (Exit 238). Take fall river road up for quite a ways (You will go over spots of unpaved road) and eventually there is a small parking area on the right and wide rubble trail on the left. Hike up the trail on the left about 3/4 mile. Tie on just about anything and have fun. I caught a bunch on a #18 Blue Wing Olive, but I even took a few on a #12 Adams. Be prepared for funky weather. I got snowed on on Saturday and rained on on Moday. Tight Lines, Chad McArthur

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Has anyone been able to find fishable water within 2 hours of Denver? I tried several streams in RMNP last weekend but they are all running high and fast. Cheeseman is at about 2000 CFS. The Big Thompson is currently running at about 300CFS below Lake Estes and although I haven’t seen the river at this volume it sounds fishable (?). Any tips would be GREATLY appreciated!

Decided to combat near terminal cabin fever and trucked up to S. but sure no crowds.  Caught three in three hours, including the nicest brown on that stretch in two years -18-19".  Wasn’t a lot of fun, tho, with insane tangles trying to cast three 3/0 split shots over top of willows behind.  Can’t wade out more than 3-4′, but fish are to be found close in if you can find some fairly slow water.  Took them all on big bright red worm.  Think Dick at Flies and Lies in Decker called it a "traditional ol’ English-tied worm".  You gotta be near spiritual about this sport to find these conditions a kick!!

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The rivers have been less then ideal.  For myself, I have turned to one of my second favorite activities.  Fly fishing for Bluegill.  Here in the Grand Junction area we have a couple of places that are producing ‘gills to 9 inches plus.  On a four wt. they are a blast.  My E-Mail is I don’t mind company, I just value good fish too much to want to see the meat hunters showing up.

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I’ll be coming out that way in August to visit my brother at CU.  I’ve been to S. Platte and Buffalo (man that place was really crowded), and Cloudland Canyon last spring but am really looking for something a little less crowded (and less touristy).  Need help in Atlanta, Jeff

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Jeff, Since you will be in Boulder you could try the Cache La Poudre. It’s west of Ft. Collins. It has some prime water sites. Other places include the Frying Pan river near Basalt, CO and the Colorado river near

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Question:

I am looking into getting a new net. I want something durable and easy on the fish.  I only catch and release.  I have seen some long narrow nets that have shallow bags.  These were listed as C&R nets but I thought the lack of depth might make it difficult to control a large fish when removing the hook. I am not interested in looks, just reliability. any ideas/comments? Thanks John Lokanis

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I am looking into getting a new net. I want something durable and easy on the fish.  I only catch and release.  I have seen some long narrow nets that have shallow bags.  These were listed as C&R nets but I thought the lack of depth might make it difficult to control a large fish when removing the hook. I am not interested in looks, just reliability.

Those "C&R" nets are certainly the rage these days. They’re design is the polar opposite of the typical trout net with a bag that’s so deep you could hide Jimmy Hoffa in it. Given the choice of a conventional net with a deep bag, a conventional net with a shallow bag (which I have), or the narrow C&R net, I’d definitely go the the C&R net. I hope to find the time n this lifetime to build one of those myself ;^) If it’s large fish you’re worried about, the purpose of the long narrow hoop is to avoid folding the fish on itself – which can harm the fish and make the release a bity futile. There is just enough depth to the net to contain the fish while you quickly remove your barbless hook, and in most cases a large fish will remain fairly docile once it’s layed out on the netting (I’ve found the smaller fish will be the more wriggly)… <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.    Alpha Server Engineering  < <           "Read this and nobody gets hurt"           < <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking into getting a new net. I want something durable and easy on the fish.  I only catch and release.  I have seen some long narrow nets that have shallow bags.  These were listed as C&R nets but I thought the lack of depth might make it difficult to control a large fish when removing the hook. I am not interested in looks, just reliability. any ideas/comments? Thanks John Lokanis

John, L.L. Bean sells one ($50) having the following dimensions:  Net — 16" long, 7" wide, 6 1/2" deep; 23" long overall. Orvis also sells the Rocky Mountain Stretch and Release ($69) with the following dimensions:  Net — 15" long, 10" wide, 18" deep; 22" long overall.  This is probably more your speed. Best regards, Jim Davis Philadelphia, PA Temple University

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking into getting a new net. I want something durable and easy on the fish.  I only catch and release.  I have seen some long narrow nets that have shallow bags.  These were listed as C&R nets but I thought the lack of depth might make it difficult to control a large fish when removing the hook. I am not interested in looks, just reliability. any ideas/comments? Thanks John Lokanis John, L.L. Bean sells one ($50) having the following dimensions:  Net — 16" long, 7" wide, 6 1/2" deep; 23" long overall. Orvis also sells the Rocky Mountain Stretch and Release ($69) with the following dimensions:  Net — 15" long, 10" wide, 18" deep; 22" long overall.  This is probably more your speed. Best regards, Jim Davis Philadelphia, PA Temple University

I just got an LL Bean C&R the other day.  Nice net, but just a little large.  But, I still like it anyway.  Good quality wood too.  Keep away from those cheap imported ones ($20 or less).  I got one and it was crap!  The screw eye in the handle stripped out the third time I grabbed for it.  I bought a good net basket and replaced the cheap one it came with, put a bigger screw eye in the handle, and gave it to my 7 year old for her first net (she’ll never know).  :-) Steve   A sunny day,      a box of midges,         and a wandering stream…   Man, this MUST be heaven!   <    Steve Kulpa    <<

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I am looking into getting a new net.

I’m courious why you need a net at all.  I have been fly fishing for five years and have caught every thing from redfish in the Gulf of Mexico to salmon in British Columbia and have never needed a net (except when fishing for Spring Salmon).  If a fish is played correctly, and handled with a little care your god given hands should be good enough.  Instead, why not check out some of the new gloves that are available for handling fish.  They help avoid damage to the fish’s layer of protective slime. Just my $.02

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I have a C&R net, and I have securely landed trout up to 22" in the mesh bag. If you are worried about losing fish when removing hooks, don’t be.   The finer mesh helps keep the protective slime on the fish and the shallower bag prevents the fish from "bending," a major cause of injury.

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I am looking into getting a new net. I want something durable and easy on the fish.  I only catch and release.  I have seen some long narrow nets that have shallow bags.  These were listed as C&R nets but I thought the lack of depth might make it difficult to control a large fish when removing the hook. I am not interested in looks, just reliability. any ideas/comments? Thanks

I’ve heard good things about Bridgeport Landing Net Company. They are in Portland OR. I don’t have a net, but will soon, and from wh= at I can tell they seem to be a good deal for the money. Michael Paine – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -John Lokanis

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Hi Michael, I’m struggling with my newsreader, so I’m not sure if this response will get posted to the newsgroup, but here goes.  If my previous one got posted, please ignore… I see some of the other responses suggested various models, but for me, I really advise using the hand. Although it takes some getting used to, rolling the trout on it’s back usually quites them down – or – holding them upright with gentle pressure applied just forward of the ventral fins will also.   Compared to the struggle of getting teeth, gills, and hook untangled from the net always seems more traumatic and time consuming to me.  Bag the net – they’re more bother than they are worth, and bringing to hand is more satisfying.  Besides, the trout I’m into won’t fit into any net small enough to carry

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I am looking into getting a new net. I want something durable and easy on the fish.  I only catch and release.  I have seen some long narrow nets that have shallow bags.  These were listed as C&R nets but I thought the lack of depth might make it difficult to control a large fish when removing the hook. I am not interested in looks, just reliability. any ideas/comments? Thanks

I just bought the Orvis Stretch and Release net. I’ve landed about a dozen fish over 17 inches with it, with no problems. It is without a doubt the best net I’ve ever owned, I would highly recommend it. Also take a look at their magnetic net attachment gizmo, I love that thing.

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Given the choice of a conventional net with a deep bag, a conventional net with a shallow bag (which I have), or the narrow C&R net, I’d definitely go the the C&R net. I hope to find the time n this lifetime to build one of those myself ;^)

I presume you will make one from a kit. Where can you buy a kit for a net? Richard Warren Raleigh, NC

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TO:   hi there      re: your  net inquiry…I know it’s the fashion to bash Orvis products these days, but I am going to go out on a limb here and recommend the Orvis "Catch and Release" net. I have had one two years and they are very easy on the fish. The mesh is soft and tightly woven. Yes they are shallow, but if you buy the large one, I doubt you will stick many trout that you cant handle with it. Three weeks ago I caught 4 trout between 20 and 21 inches on the Bighorn R. and had no problem handling the fish. A year ago I caught my largest fish ever on a fly..a bruiser brown 26"..in North Carolina of all places. I landed him with this same net and was able to control him and gently release him with no harm done. I am not an Orvis junkie, but this is the best net I’ve ever owned.  I fish alot, and in two years the net, including the mesh, is still in fine shape. My only hope is that someday soon you catch a trout that really is too big for this net to handle! Dale Owens

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