Question:

Mine or Dan’s? I am a disfunctional custom finish carpenter. Who longs to build everyone at least one perfect fishing rod. — Dave Norton Millennium Custom Rods http://www.millenniumcustomrods.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is your career field? Bill Dave, I am glad that your not closing the doors.  Eventually I hope to have enough cash to order a rod from you, from all I have heard it will be great.  Now if you can help me find a job, I’ll order it right soon ;<} Good fishing and catching! No more dail-up! Guess I have to figure out how to change the "sig". The cable modem was a father’s day present. or birthday present, hhmmm perhaps both. Damn that means I am done for the year, and I didn’t get that Curado replaced. Double crap!!! Dan I’ve rambled enough, back to the rocking chair.  ZZZZZZZZZ Remove left x for a direct reply.

Response:

What is your career field? Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dave, I am glad that your not closing the doors.  Eventually I hope to have enough cash to order a rod from you, from all I have heard it will be great.  Now if you can help me find a job, I’ll order it right soon ;<} Good fishing and catching! No more dail-up! Guess I have to figure out how to change the "sig". The cable modem was a father’s day present. or birthday present, hhmmm perhaps both. Damn that means I am done for the year, and I didn’t get that Curado replaced. Double crap!!! Dan I’ve rambled enough, back to the rocking chair.  ZZZZZZZZZ Remove left x for a direct reply.

Response:

MX I think! Wait till you see the whole site. Chris my new webmaster & I talked some to nite. Soon he will have our whole catalog, some 86 different — Dave Norton Millennium Custom Rods http://www.millenniumcustomrods.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey… I like that! Was that with Dreamweaver? Charles, he is in charge of flyrods only, by the way check out the new site. It is still under construction, but I really like the direction it is headed! — Dave Norton Millennium Custom Rods http://www.millenniumcustomrods.com I’ll volunteer for that field tester job Dave. LOL Dan, not only are we not closing up shop; we just got the final quotes form our supplier for the the spinning rods. Wish I could help you out in the employment field, shucks if this doesn’t play out I’ll likely be with you. Also we just finished a prototype 2 piece 8′6"  6wt. flyrod. Our feild tester has been having fits to get his hands on it since he first test cast it. So all you folks that fly fish for smallies, we’ve got you covered also. — Dave Norton Millennium Custom Rods Dave, I am glad that your not closing the doors.  Eventually I hope to have enough cash to order a rod from you, from all I have heard it will be great.  Now if you can help me find a job, I’ll order it right soon ;<} Good fishing and catching! No more dail-up! Guess I have to figure out how to change the "sig". The cable modem was a father’s day present. or birthday present, hhmmm perhaps both. Damn that means I am done for the year, and I didn’t get that Curado replaced. Double crap!!! Dan I’ve rambled enough, back to the rocking chair.  ZZZZZZZZZ Remove left x for a direct reply.

Response:

Hey… I like that! Was that with Dreamweaver?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Charles, he is in charge of flyrods only, by the way check out the new site. It is still under construction, but I really like the direction it is headed! — Dave Norton Millennium Custom Rods http://www.millenniumcustomrods.com I’ll volunteer for that field tester job Dave. LOL Dan, not only are we not closing up shop; we just got the final quotes form our supplier for the the spinning rods. Wish I could help you out in the employment field, shucks if this doesn’t play out I’ll likely be with you. Also we just finished a prototype 2 piece 8′6"  6wt. flyrod. Our feild tester has been having fits to get his hands on it since he first test cast it. So all you folks that fly fish for smallies, we’ve got you covered also. — Dave Norton Millennium Custom Rods Dave, I am glad that your not closing the doors.  Eventually I hope to have enough cash to order a rod from you, from all I have heard it will be great.  Now if you can help me find a job, I’ll order it right soon ;<} Good fishing and catching! No more dail-up! Guess I have to figure out how to change the "sig". The cable modem was a father’s day present. or birthday present, hhmmm perhaps both. Damn that means I am done for the year, and I didn’t get that Curado replaced. Double crap!!! Dan I’ve rambled enough, back to the rocking chair.  ZZZZZZZZZ Remove left x for a direct reply.

Response:

Charles, he is in charge of flyrods only, by the way check out the new site. It is still under construction, but I really like the direction it is headed! — Dave Norton Millennium Custom Rods http://www.millenniumcustomrods.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll volunteer for that field tester job Dave. LOL Dan, not only are we not closing up shop; we just got the final quotes form our supplier for the the spinning rods. Wish I could help you out in the employment field, shucks if this doesn’t play out I’ll likely be with you. Also we just finished a prototype 2 piece 8′6"  6wt. flyrod. Our feild tester has been having fits to get his hands on it since he first test cast it. So all you folks that fly fish for smallies, we’ve got you covered also. — Dave Norton Millennium Custom Rods Dave, I am glad that your not closing the doors.  Eventually I hope to have enough cash to order a rod from you, from all I have heard it will be great.  Now if you can help me find a job, I’ll order it right soon ;<} Good fishing and catching! No more dail-up! Guess I have to figure out how to change the "sig". The cable modem was a father’s day present. or birthday present, hhmmm perhaps both. Damn that means I am done for the year, and I didn’t get that Curado replaced. Double crap!!! Dan I’ve rambled enough, back to the rocking chair.  ZZZZZZZZZ Remove left x for a direct reply.

Response:

No more dail-up! Guess I have to figure out how to change the "sig". The cable modem was a father’s day present. or birthday present, hhmmm perhaps both. Damn that means I am done for the year, and I didn’t get that Curado replaced. Double crap!!! — Dave Norton Millennium Custom Rods

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now Dave… if you’re gonna play with Connie’s computer… at least change the name. The idea of a less expensive rod sounds good. Can you compete though with places like Bass Pro Shops? I’m sure that there’s a much greater benefit from a semi-custom rod than the BPS specials, so you’ll have to stress that, as well as educate people like you have taught me. With that range of prices though… and the right salesman/sales pitch… you’d be running on the right track. Now… is this going to be feasible? Don’t forget that your time and talent is worth money as well. I don’t think that I’d drop the higher end line altogether… but rather keep them available when people begin to understand what a custom rod can do for them. I know that when I first began buying my rods, I was happy as a lark with the $20~$30 rods. As time came to replace them, I realized that if I wanted one that would last longer and help my confidence, I’d have to pay a little more. Once I got a really good rod in my hands, I knew that I’d never be happy with anything less. That’s why I came to you about my next rod. Hopefully, I’ll be able to drum you up a little business when I receive mine. I’ve already begun the teaching, and have impressed a few people. Wait until they see one of yours! Due to a recent downturn in the custom market we actually thought about closing up shop. And then an idea over came us. What if we could produce a line of rods in semi-production mode that would appeal to the more average angler.  To this end we are working with our suppliers to build a semi-custom rod at will retail for about $125.00 These rods will preform as well as our custom models yet, they will not have the frills. We are currently working on 10 models to include baitcastrs & spinning rods. We hope to have production models ready soon. These rods will be offered both in the retail market & as direct sales from our website. Which is now under going a major reconstruction. The new site will finally include our fly rod assembly. We hope that you will take the time in the coming months to check us out. — Dave Norton Millennium Custom Rods

Response:

I’ll volunteer for that field tester job Dave. LOL

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dan, not only are we not closing up shop; we just got the final quotes form our supplier for the the spinning rods. Wish I could help you out in the employment field, shucks if this doesn’t play out I’ll likely be with you. Also we just finished a prototype 2 piece 8′6"  6wt. flyrod. Our feild tester has been having fits to get his hands on it since he first test cast it. So all you folks that fly fish for smallies, we’ve got you covered also. — Dave Norton Millennium Custom Rods Dave, I am glad that your not closing the doors.  Eventually I hope to have enough cash to order a rod from you, from all I have heard it will be great.  Now if you can help me find a job, I’ll order it right soon ;<} Good fishing and catching! No more dail-up! Guess I have to figure out how to change the "sig". The cable modem was a father’s day present. or birthday present, hhmmm perhaps both. Damn that means I am done for the year, and I didn’t get that Curado replaced. Double crap!!! Dan I’ve rambled enough, back to the rocking chair.  ZZZZZZZZZ Remove left x for a direct reply.

Response:

Dave, I am glad that your not closing the doors.  Eventually I hope to have enough cash to order a rod from you, from all I have heard it will be great.  Now if you can help me find a job, I’ll order it right soon ;<} Good fishing and catching! No more dail-up! Guess I have to figure out how to change the "sig". The cable modem was a father’s day present. or birthday present, hhmmm perhaps both. Damn that means I am done for the year, and I didn’t get that Curado replaced. Double crap!!!

Dan I’ve rambled enough, back to the rocking chair.  ZZZZZZZZZ Remove left x for a direct reply.

Response:

Dan, not only are we not closing up shop; we just got the final quotes form our supplier for the the spinning rods. Wish I could help you out in the employment field, shucks if this doesn’t play out I’ll likely be with you. Also we just finished a prototype 2 piece 8′6"  6wt. flyrod. Our feild tester has been having fits to get his hands on it since he first test cast it. So all you folks that fly fish for smallies, we’ve got you covered also. — Dave Norton Millennium Custom Rods

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dave, I am glad that your not closing the doors.  Eventually I hope to have enough cash to order a rod from you, from all I have heard it will be great.  Now if you can help me find a job, I’ll order it right soon ;<} Good fishing and catching! No more dail-up! Guess I have to figure out how to change the "sig". The cable modem was a father’s day present. or birthday present, hhmmm perhaps both. Damn that means I am done for the year, and I didn’t get that Curado replaced. Double crap!!! Dan I’ve rambled enough, back to the rocking chair.  ZZZZZZZZZ Remove left x for a direct reply.

Response:

Now Dave… if you’re gonna play with Connie’s computer… at least change the name. The idea of a less expensive rod sounds good. Can you compete though with places like Bass Pro Shops? I’m sure that there’s a much greater benefit from a semi-custom rod than the BPS specials, so you’ll have to stress that, as well as educate people like you have taught me. With that range of prices though… and the right salesman/sales pitch… you’d be running on the right track. Now… is this going to be feasible? Don’t forget that your time and talent is worth money as well. I don’t think that I’d drop the higher end line altogether… but rather keep them available when people begin to understand what a custom rod can do for them. I know that when I first began buying my rods, I was happy as a lark with the $20~$30 rods. As time came to replace them, I realized that if I wanted one that would last longer and help my confidence, I’d have to pay a little more. Once I got a really good rod in my hands, I knew that I’d never be happy with anything less. That’s why I came to you about my next rod. Hopefully, I’ll be able to drum you up a little business when I receive mine. I’ve already begun the teaching, and have impressed a few people. Wait until they see one of yours!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Due to a recent downturn in the custom market we actually thought about closing up shop. And then an idea over came us. What if we could produce a line of rods in semi-production mode that would appeal to the more average angler.  To this end we are working with our suppliers to build a semi-custom rod at will retail for about $125.00 These rods will preform as well as our custom models yet, they will not have the frills. We are currently working on 10 models to include baitcastrs & spinning rods. We hope to have production models ready soon. These rods will be offered both in the retail market & as direct sales from our website. Which is now under going a major reconstruction. The new site will finally include our fly rod assembly. We hope that you will take the time in the coming months to check us out. — Dave Norton Millennium Custom Rods

Response:

the light bill.  :-) — Jerry Barton www.jerrys-world.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Due to a recent downturn in the custom market we actually thought about closing up shop. And then an idea over came us. What if we could produce a line of rods in semi-production mode that would appeal to the more average angler.  To this end we are working with our suppliers to build a semi-custom rod at will retail for about $125.00 These rods will preform as well as our custom models yet, they will not have the frills. We are currently working on 10 models to include baitcastrs & spinning rods. We hope to have production models ready soon. These rods will be offered both in the retail market & as direct sales from our website. Which is now under going a major reconstruction. The new site will finally include our fly rod assembly. We hope that you will take the time in the coming months to check us out. — Dave Norton Millennium Custom Rods

Response:

Due to a recent downturn in the custom market we actually thought about closing up shop. And then an idea over came us. What if we could produce a line of rods in semi-production mode that would appeal to the more average angler.  To this end we are working with our suppliers to build a semi-custom rod at will retail for about $125.00 These rods will preform as well as our custom models yet, they will not have the frills. We are currently working on 10 models to include baitcastrs & spinning rods. We hope to have production models ready soon. These rods will be offered both in the retail market & as direct sales from our website. Which is now under going a major reconstruction. The new site will finally include our fly rod assembly. We hope that you will take the time in the coming months to check us out. — Dave Norton Millennium Custom Rods

Response:

Question:

    Earlier today I e-mailed Willi a picture of an attractive young lady in a library, wearing thick glasses and little else (see last weeks Boulder library thread). Willi hasn’t answered or posted anything to roff since then, so I can only assume Susan opened the e-mail and promptly killed the poor guy.              (snif)

Response:

    Earlier today I e-mailed Willi a picture of an attractive young lady in a library, wearing thick glasses and little else (see last weeks Boulder library thread). Willi hasn’t answered or posted anything to roff since then, so I can only assume Susan opened the e-mail and promptly killed the poor guy.              (snif)

Not something that Susan would give a shit about, well maybe if she found us in bed together, but a picture? You mentioned fishing.  Think you could get us on one of those stretches you have "ins" on just outside of town?  When there’s water flowing, the lower Poudre has been very good.  Lots of midges out with the fish feeding all day. The trout in the canyon although catchable are icecubes already. Willi

Response:

You mentioned fishing.  Think you could get us on one of those stretches you have "ins" on just outside of town?

Hah! Now she is after you Charlie.  You’re next on the endangered fly fisherman’s list! — Warren www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

Response:

You mentioned fishing.  Think you could get us on one of those stretches you have "ins" on just outside of town? Hah! Now she is after you Charlie.  You’re next on the endangered fly fisherman’s list!

   Yup, I wasn’t fooled for a second. I wonder if Sue’s a very good fly fisher?

Response:

Not something that Susan would give a shit about, well maybe if she found us in bed together, but a picture?

   Well I, for one, hope she never finds us in bed together.

Response:

Not something that Susan would give a shit about, well maybe if she found us in bed together, but a picture?    Well I, for one, hope she never finds us in bed together.

ME too!!!! When I reread it after posting, I knew it didn’t sound right. Willi

Response:

You mentioned fishing.  Think you could get us on one of those stretches you have "ins" on just outside of town? Willi

  Careful, Willi.  I had the pleasure of spending last Friday evening with Charlie & Pat for a visit and supper (and a fine cigar).  The next day, Charlie took me to one of his secret fishing holes.  I caught giant bluegill, crappie, a largemouth and a couple of different species of trout.  All on streamers.  What a beautiful day.  Must have caught 20 fish (to Charlie’s 40?).  But, my shoulder may never be the same.  Put a "hitch" in it setting the hook so many times.  I tried an ice pack but the only thing that seems to relieve the hurt is some ‘ol Mil. Snoop — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Question:

Someone was kind enough to inform me that they thought that my site was commercial. I am not selling any rods, and the forum is for others to use. I am sorry if violated the ROFB charter. I will not post again to the group. Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have updated my site designed around collecting, fishing, and repair of bamboo and fiberglass fly rods. I have new articles, stories, photos, and information. The forum is a good source of information about the above topics, and there is a board to get a free appraisal as well as a board to list classic tackle that you have for sale or you wish to buy, which is also free. You can visit the site at  http://www.clarksrods.com Hope you enjoy the site. Regards Clark

Response:

I have updated my site designed around collecting, fishing, and repair of bamboo and fiberglass fly rods. I have new articles, stories, photos, and information. The forum is a good source of information about the above topics, and there is a board to get a free appraisal as well as a board to list classic tackle that you have for sale or you wish to buy, which is also free. You can visit the site at  http://www.clarksrods.com Hope you enjoy the site. Regards Clark

Response:

And your site is a commercial site, all ads are prohibited according to the r.o.f.b. charter — ~~~~ The RodMaker (aka) The Shadow

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have updated my site designed around collecting, fishing, and repair of bamboo and fiberglass fly rods. I have new articles, stories, photos, and information. The forum is a good source of information about the above topics, and there is a board to get a free appraisal as well as a board to list classic tackle that you have for sale or you wish to buy, which is also free. You can visit the site at  http://www.clarksrods.com Hope you enjoy the site. Regards Clark

Response:

Question:

Try the new Magellan 320 Fisherman. It is handheld, and has all the buoys, lights, and fixed navaids. It is great for a small boat that stays near the coast, and is very reasonable in price. I fish a lot, and use it as a back up on my big boat and just use it alone on my 16 foot and 14 foot boats. — Red Rider (J-V-B Triangle) We Shoot For Accuracy "I may have a bad memory, but I have over 39 years of diaries, log books and notes". If it doesn’t work I’ll apply more force. Of course I support "Freedom of Speech". I also support my right not to pay attention to fools.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am interested in getting a GPS.  I fly fish the coastal waters around Cape Cod from a small boat.  There a many different models available.  I would be interested in suggestions about how to think about this and any specific recommendations people have. Thank you

Response:

I like my Garmin "Map" hand held. its totally waterproof, has charts,its the newest gagjit from Garmin. i can only go up to color now but there $1300 bucks too my unit was $309 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am interested in getting a GPS.  I fly fish the coastal waters around Cape Cod from a small boat.  There a many different models available.  I would be interested in suggestions about how to think about this and any specific recommendations people have. Thank you

Response:

I am interested in getting a GPS.  I fly fish the coastal waters around Cape Cod from a small boat.  There a many different models available.  I would be interested in suggestions about how to think about this and any specific recommendations people have. Thank you

Response:

I am interested in getting a GPS.  I fly fish the coastal waters around Cape Cod from a small boat.  There a many different models available.  I would be interested in suggestions about how to think about this and any specific recommendations people have.

Garmin works for me I currently have the Garmin GPSMAP 230. I have had 2 other Garmins previously. The map chips are great cannot get lost as long as system is operational. 118 days to go..

Response:

Question:

It’s our 2-year anniversary this weekend, and hubby and I had decided a couple of weeks ago that we’d go out to a nice restaurant for dinner.  Well, 2 nights ago he said he wanted to make a weekend of it and we could take a short trip somewhere.  I was so excite because 1) he never wants to take trips; and 2) I’d really been wanting to just get away for a couple of days for a long time coming, and this sounded perfect.  Well, this meant he’d have to work a late the rest of the week so he wouldn’t have to work this weekend.  I went to his work the night before and last night and helped out a bit.  I didn’t mind one bit even though I was having a bad week myself.  I just kept saying, just think of this weekend.  So I was really counting on it.  On our way home last night, I asked where he thought we could go this weekend.  He then said he was going to be too tired to go anywhere this weekend, and we’d do it next weekend.  I reminded him my mom was coming to visit that weekend.  So he said we’d do it some other time… which equates to never.   Believe me, every time we don’t have a definite date scheduled for something it never happens.  And we can’t schedule anything too far in advance now because of his erratic travel schedule. This has happenned before… where he’ll suggest something, get my hopes up, then it never happens.  Like this spring he suggested we take a weekend and go to one of the local resorts.  I said great.  Two weeks later when he hadn’t mentioned it further, I pulled out some brochures to look at with him.  He said he’d take care of the planning and not to push him on it (is looking at brochures pushing someone???).   Anyway, I never brought it up again, and the trip never happenned. To top things off, I went to the salon last night to lighten my hair (from dark brown -> medium brown) and I ended up blonde (kinda my fault, long story).  I’m going back this weekend to get it fixed (for free), but I have to sit through work today (including a meeting with the CEO of our company this morning) with blonde hair. OK, I feel better now.  Thanks for the ears.  Oh, and any advice on how to handle hubby’s lack of planning would be greatly appreciated. Melissa * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

From: melissa >So he >said we’d do it some other time… which equates to never.  

Ooooh I HATE that!!  Here’s what you do. The moment he says, "let’s go" you ask, "where to?"  The idea is to get him on the upswing and strike while the iron’s hot.  Get as much info from him at this time, ’cause as the days go by there will be more of a chance that he’ll change his mind. Once you have an idea of what he prefers, you take it upon yourself to make all the arrangements.  Don’t ask him what he thinks about this or that during the planning period… just do it, but do keep in mind his likes and dislikes…. as in don’t plan on a beach resort getaway if hubby mentioned going to the mountains in that preliminary conversation. When everything is arranged (and paid for) present him with the plan. Be prepared for a tantrum… and even for the possibility that you won’t be going anywhere.  In that case, remind him that there go $X that you’ll never get back. Also, be prepared for hubby to reproach the fact that you went ahead and made all the plans without him.  That’s when you *calmly* tell him exactly how it makes you feel when he promises something and then doesn’t come through. Explain that you didn’t want to be disappointed again so you took it upon yourself to plan the trip.  If nothing else, you’ll get started on communicating  about the problem.  Maybe it’ll break him of the bad habit of blowing smoke up your ass.  Good luck.

Response:

Melissa Quick, you have half a day to plan. Find a nice place that is not too far from home and relaxing. Pack your bag and his and as soon as he comes home, kidnap him. Tell him he has to do nothing just enjoy being with you and he can relax. Then drive off with him … Sorry, my imagination is running wild but I do feel for you. This is a hard situation to be in …. I think Gidget’s ideas are great though. Katie Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

melissa wrote: > reminded him my mom was coming to visit that weekend.  So he > said we’d do it some other time… which equates to never.

I can feel the disappointment oozing off the screen here on my end.   > Believe me, every time we don’t have a definite date > scheduled for something it never happens.  And we can’t > schedule anything too far in advance now because of his > erratic travel schedule.

Trent’s idea has merit (i.e., schedule non-refundable vacations, etc), but my guess is that you’re limited by his travel schedule.  If that’s the case, then you’ll have to gird yourself and dicuss how his behavior in this manner bothers you.  And THEN start scehduling non-refundable vacations!  :) > resorts.  I said great.  Two weeks later when he hadn’t > mentioned it further, I pulled out some brochures to look at > with him.  He said he’d take care of the planning and not to > push him on it (is looking at brochures pushing someone???).

It could be seen that way.  If he wanted to have children right now and you wanted to wait a few years, would his leaving a copy of "Parents" magazine laying around be seen as pushing by you?  Its all in the eye of the beholder.   You know what, though?  When you couple this vacation-ditching conduct with the cold feet house purchase, he does seem to have a thing about committing, though.  Its got to be exasperating. > To top things off, I went to the salon last night to lighten > my hair (from dark brown -> medium brown) and I ended up > blonde (kinda my fault, long story).  I’m going back this > weekend to get it fixed (for free), but I have to sit > through work today (including a meeting with the CEO of our > company this morning) with blonde hair.

Missie!  I think you look devine as a blonde!  If you’re serious about having it fixed this weekend, I’m sorely tempted to make a comment about your husband having a short window of opportunity for role-playing sex involving a blonde.  But sometimes discretion wins.  I won’t say anything!  :) > OK, I feel better now.  Thanks for the ears.  Oh, and any > advice on how to handle hubby’s lack of planning would be > greatly appreciated.

Have you read Passionate Marriage yet?  Its a given in marriage that the low desire partner controls the amount of any activity (in this case, vacationing). But you know what?  I don’t think its a low desire issue here…I think its a reluctance to commit to some course of behavior.  Why don’t *you* commit him instead (not to a mental institution, although I bet that’s crossed your mind Drew

Response:

floridanewbie wrote in message

<37c0e0d7.117195…@news.flatoday.infi.net>… >On 23 Aug 1999 01:16:51 GMT, gidgeto…@aol.com (GidgetOliv) wrote: ><snip> >>What do you folks think of homeschooling? (I know there are newsgroups dealing >>with the topic, but I want to know what people *here* think.)  Just curious… >Education involves so much more than just learning from books … how >about the social aspects of learning about different kinds of people, >getting along in groups and learning how to settle conflicts in an >acceptable manner?

There are many many schools where this doesn’t apply. I don’t think that the alternatives to public education sprang up purely because of doubts that the children were receiving anadequate education. I really think that there is more to it. These alternatives are a way of coping with situations that are otherwise intolerable for many. >Additionally, in a good classroom, the teacher will let the group >stumble around trying to solve problems or discuss aspects of an >assignment … even wrong answers or peculiar tangents contain much >useful knowledge .. that is missing in home schooling.

The qualifier there is "good classroom". They’re becoming more rare with each passing day. I know several good teachers who are very frustrated at the way things have developed over the past couple of decades. >Then there are the athletic aspects … unless home school parents have >a dozen kids, most physical activites involving teamwork can’t be done.

Sure they can – kids can still play hockey and baseball etc on the community teams. >Granted, if a person lives in the middle of an ice field in Alaska or is >otherwise isolated, home schooling beats no schooling but in general, >while people mean well, I suspect a great many kids are being ill-served >with such efforts.

The studies are showing (at least where I live) that home schooled children are on par or above children who are attending public, private, and charter schools. >Instead of yanking the kids out of school, find out >exactly what is being done and then supplement those efforts with the >things you think are missing.

What if it’s not the missing things that bother you? What if it’s the things that are being done? >By the way, I seriously doubt many parents are competent across the >board other than for the lowest levels of school …

I thinkmany parents don’t realize the work that is involved. Im’ not sure it’s a matter of competency but there is a huge time commitment for each passing grade. You work for it just as much (if not more) than your children do. >the first few years would seem to put the child at a big disadvantage >when s/he is thrown into the arena with kids who already know the ropes >and who have formed strong friendships.

One has to be very careful to introduce social situations whenever possible to avoid that type of scenario. — ….my two cents ….

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GidgetOliv wrote in message

<19990822211651.24654.00001…@ng-ch1.aol.com>… >What do you folks think of homeschooling? (I know there are newsgroups dealing >with the topic, but I want to know what people *here* think.)  Just

curious… It depends on the situation. It takes a lot of time (and I do mean a lot)… you have to be very careful that it doesn’t put a wedge between you and your kid(s) cause you’re now the parent and the teacher… kind of hard to find time to relax sometimes. The plus side is that you have a whole lot more input into your child’s education and you can be actively involved in shaping their future. You might want to check out the area that you live in to see what kind of support is given to homeschooling families. In our area, we have the full resources of the schools in our district as well as staff from the distance learning center. The newsgroups and your community papers will probably give you more of a lead about what’s available. Before you make the choice, you might want to check other options – like an online school,perhaps, where the kids have a teacher but you have the kids at home. It would help you decide which would be best if you know why you are looking for alternatives. — ….my two cents ….

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On 23 Aug 1999 01:16:51 GMT, gidgeto…@aol.com (GidgetOliv) wrote: <snip> >What do you folks think of homeschooling? (I know there are newsgroups dealing >with the topic, but I want to know what people *here* think.)  Just curious…

Education involves so much more than just learning from books … how about the social aspects of learning about different kinds of people, getting along in groups and learning how to settle conflicts in an acceptable manner? In classrooms, students see that people learn at different rates and in different ways.  Some do better with quantitative methods while others thrive with qualitative methods.  Home schooling most likely will only use one method; that risks stunting the potential growth that might otherwise occur. Additionally, in a good classroom, the teacher will let the group stumble around trying to solve problems or discuss aspects of an assignment … even wrong answers or peculiar tangents contain much useful knowledge .. that is missing in home schooling. Then there are the athletic aspects … unless home school parents have a dozen kids, most physical activites involving teamwork can’t be done. Granted, if a person lives in the middle of an ice field in Alaska or is otherwise isolated, home schooling beats no schooling but in general, while people mean well, I suspect a great many kids are being ill-served with such efforts.   Instead of yanking the kids out of school, find out exactly what is being done and then supplement those efforts with the things you think are missing. By the way, I seriously doubt many parents are competent across the board other than for the lowest levels of school … to home school for the first few years would seem to put the child at a big disadvantage when s/he is thrown into the arena with kids who already know the ropes and who have formed strong friendships. Floridanewbie

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GidgetOliv asked: >What do you folks think of homeschooling

It has become a very popular alternative here in Alaska. It is working very well and has attempted to alleviate as many of the shortcomings as possible. We have one public school district (open state-wide) where you get a computer when you enroll and attend classes on-line. The homeschooled kids have their own graduation ceremony here in Fairbanks. We have 3 students in our karate school whose monthly dues are paid by the school district to satisfy their physical education requirement (or some other elective). It wouldn’t work for me, though. I am not confident that I have the right temperament to teach my own children. I don’t know whether I could be objective enough. — Sourdough sez: We would worry a lot less about what other people think of us, if we realized how seldom they do.

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From: floridanew…@hotmail.com  (floridanewbie) >trent_m…@hotmail.com (Trent) wrote: ><snip> >>–      What have you done to save your schoolchild this year? >Just sneaking in here Trent … >that list of things (security and safety) people should know about their >children’s schools is at Gavin deBecker’s site:

This post reminds me…. What do you folks think of homeschooling? (I know there are newsgroups dealing with the topic, but I want to know what people *here* think.)  Just curious…

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In article <11f733ec.1e956…@usw-ex0106-048.remarq.com>, melissa  <missie.johnsonNOcrS…@eudoramail.com> wrote: >It’s our 2-year anniversary this weekend, and hubby and I >had decided a couple of weeks ago that we’d go out to a nice >restaurant for dinner.  Well, 2 nights ago he said he wanted >to make a weekend of it and we could take a short trip >somewhere.  I was so excite because 1) he never wants to

Well… I would have gone anyway.  Yes, even if that meant going by yourself.  Because you know why… I get the feeling that this scenario plays itself out again and again because nothing otherwise happens.   Yes, I would have said, "Oh, that’s too bad. Will you really be too tired? Oh, well, I’m going to go.  I really wish you’d come to." Then do it. He either would not have come, in which case you could have had a nice relaxing weekend to yourself. If he had come, then you would have rousted him out of his old lazy habits, and the two of you could have had a great time. He "ruins" things for you so often because in a way, you let him. amy — alyo…@bluemarble.net                   http://www.bluemarble.net/~alyoung                         Speaking only for myself.

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I’m not a big fan especially after 3-4th grade because the kids get educaion from various people who are trained very highly in the subjects they’re teaching.  There’s no way I have the resources to give my child the kind of round education in music, chemistry, and algebra that three different teachers who have degrees to teach these specifics can.  I’m a big supporter of private and magnet schools. Tamara – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> GidgetOliv said… > This post reminds me…. > What do you folks think of homeschooling? (I know there are newsgroups dealing > with the topic, but I want to know what people *here* think.)  Just curious…

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Nothing serious but sometimes people refuse to do things if they have problems with strangers. I mean maybe he gained weight and he doesn’t like to see people, maybe he doesn’t have nice out fits, maybe he doesn’t like the car..etc U know anything and it could be nothing but being busy with work. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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I think for some people homeschooling could work out. The people who I know who homeschool have had all good things to say, and their kids have ended up doing great on their SAT’s and in college. Personnally though, I would love to be able to teach my kids and have that family time before they grow up and move on. But, I don’t think I could do justice to their education. I am well educated, and excelled in school, but kids today are learning more, and learning it different then I did even 10 yrs. ago. I also think that kids have to experience the socializing with their peers. I hate when kids are teased, and the bickering that goes on amongst the children at school, but I also realize that kids learn how to adjust, and learn that in their life they are going to run into people that don’t see eye to eye with them. I don’t believe that school is only for education. School teaches you life, socialization, and commitments, and responsibilities. Just my 2 cents worth momalot – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -GidgetOliv wrote: > From: floridanew…@hotmail.com  (floridanewbie) > >trent_m…@hotmail.com (Trent) wrote: > ><snip> > >>–      What have you done to save your schoolchild this year? > >Just sneaking in here Trent … > >that list of things (security and safety) people should know about their > >children’s schools is at Gavin deBecker’s site: > This post reminds me…. > What do you folks think of homeschooling? (I know there are newsgroups dealing > with the topic, but I want to know what people *here* think.)  Just curious…

– ned!

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do something for yourself…..go to a movie go shopping just do something gary

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Sorry I misunderstood.  I realize that some people just like to get to where they’re going and not have to bothered with the details. I Agree with you!  I think we all feel that way sometimes about something. But if this guy is this way.  Why does he seem to get so pissed when she tries to take the initiative?  Also, the worries about whether you can afford it or not might be valid.  Can you afford these trips Melissa?  Are you 100% aware of all financial situations in your marriage?  Make sure you know all about his and your debt and responsibilities.  Because, If he works like a dog for a vacation and you help.  Then, all of the sudden he is too tired to go and worried about the money. There might be something he is afraid to share.  Maybe he is just more worried about spending or working up debt on the credit cards or something.  You should save for a vacation.  Not just up and go and think you will just put it on the "card" and pay for it later.  This is how you get upside down in debt.  Be careful, I think lots of relatively new marriages have these problems. L8R, Carl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -GidgetOliv wrote: > From: Carl mcent…@earthlink.net > >Yeah, or maybe he’ll just start blowing all of his vacation days from that > >point on > >fishing with the guys.  I would be careful dropping that kind of bomb on a > >guy. > Absolutely!  But I never meant for her to keep it a secret… just to take him > up on it but be in charge of all the planning. > My partner does this every year… he’s usually the one to suggest vacation > destinations, but I’m the one who gets to do all the booking and planning. > Not complaining in the least, as I realize that some people just like to get to > where they’re going and not have to bothered with the details.

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>I >do like the idea of planning something myself with advance >notice from him.  He wouldn’t be thrilled, but as long as it >wasn’t something he’d openly opposed… he’d go along with >it.

Some people just don’t like the element of surprise.  You can always tell him that "his" idea to get away is an excellent one, and that he shouldn’t worry because you’ll take care of the arrangements.  That way you won’t be surprising him with plans "out of the blue" Also, you mentioned that he whines about whether or not you can afford it.  It got me thinking… maybe during that first conversation, when he says "let’s get away" you could say "I don’t know… can we afford it?"  If it’s *his* idea to get away, he might come back with something like, "Sure we can… we’re just talking [blank] bucks or so."  If he does, then you can use his figure and plan around that budget.  Then if he whines, you remind him that it was all his idea in the first place.  :)

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On Fri, 20 Aug 1999 19:37:06 GMT, trent_m…@hotmail.com (Trent) wrote:

<snip> >–      What have you done to save your schoolchild this year?

Just sneaking in here Trent … that list of things (security and safety) people should know about their children’s schools is at Gavin deBecker’s site:   http://www.gdbinc.com/ Floridanewbie

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> Can you afford these trips Melissa?  Are you 100% aware of > all financial situations in your marriage?

Yes, we can afford the kind of weekend trip he was talking about.  About our financial situation, I know more about it than he does… I’m the bill payer in the house, and I see everything, from credit card info to checkcard info to what checks went where. Melissa * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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What about planning something that you can afford? Trade houses with a family member or friend out of town? Even a picnic can be a getaway if you plan right. There are specials posted on the web for hotels and stuff….. last minute deals……. usually the ones in your own town are quite reasonable. — ….my two cents …. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -melissa wrote in message <0221c012.928fa…@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com>… > Besides, the last time I surprised him with a night away >from home, all he did was whine about whether or not we >could afford it.  It really ruined the evening.

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From: Carl mcent…@earthlink.net >Yeah, or maybe he’ll just start blowing all of his vacation days from that >point on >fishing with the guys.  I would be careful dropping that kind of bomb on a >guy.

Absolutely!  But I never meant for her to keep it a secret… just to take him up on it but be in charge of all the planning. My partner does this every year… he’s usually the one to suggest vacation destinations, but I’m the one who gets to do all the booking and planning. Not complaining in the least, as I realize that some people just like to get to where they’re going and not have to bothered with the details.

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Yeah, or maybe he’ll just start blowing all of his vacation days from that point on fishing with the guys.  I would be careful dropping that kind of bomb on a guy. Doing it in stages might be better.  For instance, if you have to fly, mention you purchased the airline tickets for the "trip" today (get the kind you can schedule departure after the fact).  Then ask when it would be a good time to sit down and figure out the dates so you can schedule the departure and hotel reservations. Then, at the point you notice his interest is peaking and he has accepted the fact you are going.  Ask him to help plan or investigate some activities to do while you are there and express that you want to make sure you do things he would like. Carl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -GidgetOliv wrote: > From: melissa > >So he > >said we’d do it some other time… which equates to never. > Ooooh I HATE that!!  Here’s what you do. > The moment he says, "let’s go" you ask, "where to?"  The idea is to get him on > the upswing and strike while the iron’s hot.  Get as much info from him at this > time, ’cause as the days go by there will be more of a chance that he’ll change > his mind. > Once you have an idea of what he prefers, you take it upon yourself to make all > the arrangements.  Don’t ask him what he thinks about this or that during the > planning period… just do it, but do keep in mind his likes and dislikes…. > as in don’t plan on a beach resort getaway if hubby mentioned going to the > mountains in that preliminary conversation. > When everything is arranged (and paid for) present him with the plan. Be > prepared for a tantrum… and even for the possibility that you won’t be going > anywhere.  In that case, remind him that there go $X that you’ll never get > back. > Also, be prepared for hubby to reproach the fact that you went ahead and made > all the plans without him.  That’s when you *calmly* tell him exactly how it > makes you feel when he promises something and then doesn’t come through. > Explain that you didn’t want to be disappointed again so you took it upon > yourself to plan the trip.  If nothing else, you’ll get started on > communicating  about the problem.  Maybe it’ll break him of the bad habit of > blowing smoke up your ass.  Good luck.

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> Find a nice place that is not too far from home and > relaxing. Pack your bag and his and as soon as he comes > home, kidnap him. Tell him he has to do nothing just enjoy > being with you and he can relax. Then drive off with him > …

As much as I’d *love* to do this, I don’t think he’d be too happy at all, which would cause him much misery on what should be a happy occasion.  Just the fact that I went ahead and planned something he’d nixed would really piss him off.  Besides, the last time I surprised him with a night away from home, all he did was whine about whether or not we could afford it.  It really ruined the evening. Thanks for the advice though you guys, I appreciate it.  I do like the idea of planning something myself with advance notice from him.  He wouldn’t be thrilled, but as long as it wasn’t something he’d openly opposed… he’d go along with it. Melissa * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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> Missie! I think you look devine as a blonde! If you’re > serious about having it fixed this weekend, I’m sorely > tempted to make a comment about your husband having a > short window of opportunity for role-playing sex involving > a blonde. But sometimes discretion wins. I won’t say > anything!

Thanks for the discretion, Drew.  Actually, I’m at auburn now (I had it fixed just a little while ago).  Not what I wanted, but not blonde, either.  You’ve gotta understand, I’m definitely not one of those complexions that is good for blonde hair.  My natural hair color is so dark a brown it’s almost black!  Anyhow, I like the auburn… I feel much much better. Melissa * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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Well, then go off and have a fun weekend by yourself. If he insists on spoiling things, don’t allow yourself to be dragged down to his level. Yes, it’s your anniversary … he’s shown a disregard for your feelings in this matter. Take yourself to a nice hotel or B&B, snuggle up with a brandy and a good book, and spoil yourself. –Welmoed

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Melissa, what would happen if you planned the weekend…Get flowers, dress the house up a little with decorations like it was someplace else.  Then, make sure you send up a flare to the families/friends that call often to resist unless it’s an emergency.  Get a new cute "lingerie" type item and have a romantic dinner planned with his favorite meal.  It could be pizza by candlelight if that’s what he loves.  Then, during the evening maybe post-meal while your stomachs are settling, before the "passionate replay of the consummation of your marriage", mention how you wanted to give him a "weekend away" without the hassle of traveling somewhere and that you hope he would try harder to plan a short trip somewhere for you soon.  I for one would love this myself…maybe I should keep a copy of this for my wife. Good luck, Carl P.S.  All marriages have bumps and you shouldn’t feel bad about maybe seeking some biblically based counseling to help with your communication skills and understanding each others different needs. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -melissa wrote: > It’s our 2-year anniversary this weekend, and hubby and I > had decided a couple of weeks ago that we’d go out to a nice > restaurant for dinner.  Well, 2 nights ago he said he wanted > to make a weekend of it and we could take a short trip > somewhere.  I was so excite because 1) he never wants to > take trips; and 2) I’d really been wanting to just get away > for a couple of days for a long time coming, and this > sounded perfect.  Well, this meant he’d have to work a > late the rest of the week so he wouldn’t have to work this > weekend.  I went to his work the night before and last night > and helped out a bit.  I didn’t mind one bit even though I > was having a bad week myself.  I just kept saying, just > think of this weekend.  So I was really counting on it.  On > our way home last night, I asked where he thought we could > go this weekend.  He then said he was going to be too tired > to go anywhere this weekend, and we’d do it next weekend.  I > reminded him my mom was coming to visit that weekend.  So he > said we’d do it some other time… which equates to never. > Believe me, every time we don’t have a definite date > scheduled for something it never happens.  And we can’t > schedule anything too far in advance now because of his > erratic travel schedule. > This has happenned before… where he’ll suggest something, > get my hopes up, then it never happens.  Like this spring he > suggested we take a weekend and go to one of the local > resorts.  I said great.  Two weeks later when he hadn’t > mentioned it further, I pulled out some brochures to look at > with him.  He said he’d take care of the planning and not to > push him on it (is looking at brochures pushing someone???). > Anyway, I never brought it up again, and the trip never > happenned. > To top things off, I went to the salon last night to lighten > my hair (from dark brown -> medium brown) and I ended up > blonde (kinda my fault, long story).  I’m going back this > weekend to get it fixed (for free), but I have to sit > through work today (including a meeting with the CEO of our > company this morning) with blonde hair. > OK, I feel better now.  Thanks for the ears.  Oh, and any > advice on how to handle hubby’s lack of planning would be > greatly appreciated. > Melissa > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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Question:

In one case a guy went after people in another nearby tent with a chain saw.

Great Caesar’s Ghost!  What happened?  Was the chain saw running?  If it was, he certainly wasn’t trying to be sneaky.    Robert

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goodnight Tokyo Rose: The dolly llama has been shorn. I hear they make great sweaters and the meat aint all that bad too eat either. just remember life is only as big as your wardrobe:)

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Sorry about the misfortune, but as someone stated – it is relatively uncommon. I remember being robbed in the Dublin Youth Hostel. It was a six-bed-dorm and I have put my trekking jacket between me and the wall and it was gone the next morning…boy, I was so mad and disappointed. But out there, it never happened to me and I have done camping all over Europe. I am sure that everybody will keep the core valuables always at the body anyway, right. You need to put the trust in others, or you may prefer to stop doing hikes and that will be a real loss. Relax, hike and keep your eyes open! Tim

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: You’ve got to read more history.  Read about the really old : not-so-good days of the areas you wander through.  Every one of them : has stories of murders, thefts, some have cannibalism, etc.. I agree that the whole notion of the "good old days" is nothing more than selective memory and wishful thinking.  I always wonder exactly when were the "good old days".

                                     snip< Generally agree with both of you. My thinking trends toward the idea that the "good old days" is a myth. Would anyone here consider taking a solo trip on a main highway in medieval Europe?  Not without a prominent display of arms I hope. The further back you look, the worse it was.  Certainly there are many regions today where you still take your chances.  Robbers in Guatemala, Taxi drivers in Mexico City who rob their fares, and fanatic separatists in the Himalaya who have beheaded western trekkers. I still feel safer in the relatively benign North American backcountry than in any large North American city.   – Robert

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I’ve found that anything that charges a fee, however small, to get in is quieter and better behaved than anything that doesn’t.  Anything that has an official occasionally in sight is quieter and better behaved.  Our State Parks are safer than my home neighborhood.  Our State Forests, however, are the one place I’ve had serious trouble and where the formal campsites are ‘party-’til-you-puke’ fav spots for local youth.  That said, I’d still say that most of the State Forest sites are wonderful  and mostly safer than my home neighborhood (is it time I moved?)   General putins for lakes and rivers and popular trailheads in the mid part of the state are iffy.  If there’s a State Park to leave my vehicle in, I’d generally rather paddle a couple of miles extra rather than leave my vehicle at a couple of the putins I’ve tried.  Not had any trouble, but too much of a place that anyone can drive into and more troubled (or partying) youth problems and some extra of weirdos.  There’s at least one place near a fav river that’d be perfect to put my little kayak in at.  Except for the broken beer and booze bottles and the sickening smell of the trash heap that’s occasionally used for bonfires.  I’ve driven down to it, gotten out and looked and driven right away.  Local vehicles might be safe there, but I’m pretty sure mine wouldn’t be.  In fact, when I paddle or hike past it, I never even see local vehicles, which is another bad sign. However, up by the BWAC, I’ve seen trailheads/putins with every yuppie vehicle one could imagine, all looking  perfectly fine except for the dust on some that shows they’ve been there for at least a full week. Down in mid state and lower I’ve left my own vehicle for days at a time with perfect safety and heard little of any problems. Look before you park or camp.  Most places are safe.  Some are obviously not.  Think before you leave your vehicle.  If possible, find out about the local area.  Try asking at the nearest small convenience store.  Look around if there’s any housing nearby.  Does it look as if it costs a bit and is well maintained?  Then they’ll be even more anxious than you for the place to be safe.  Realize that crime, like lightning, can strike anywhere, but it’s got some favorite places.  Try to learn the signs.  If it strikes anyway, try to be philosophical about it if you live through it.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | We have camped for years and never have had an incident, so try to | consider this unusual.  You should be fine if you go to a state park, | private park or National Forest. Alot of the parks have locked gates | now. (you get the combo)  If you "boondock" you stand more of a chance | of being vandalized or tormented.  Be positive about your future plans, | you will enjoy the outdoors, I’m sure. | Happy Trails, | Joyce National Forests are not necessarily "safe". In my state (NH) we have had many incidents of trouble at National Forest campgrounds (some of these being "backcountry" sites), mainly caused by drunkeness. In one case a guy went after people in another nearby tent with a chain saw. Car break-ins at trailheads are extremely common here also.

—– I’m going to live forever or die trying. I only answer my email every few months, on average.   Patience helps.   http://www.visi.com/~cyli

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: You’ve got to read more history.  Read about the really old : not-so-good days of the areas you wander through.  Every one of them : has stories of murders, thefts, some have cannibalism, etc..  Society : is not necessarily becoming something.  You may just be becoming more : aware.  For really good old fashioned fun, read about the old Natchez : Trace.  You’d not have gone near it in its true ‘wilderness’ phase. I agree that the whole notion of the "good old days" is nothing more than selective memory and wishful thinking.  I always wonder exactly when were the "good old days".  Assuming they are supposed to be post industrial revolution… looking at the 1900’s… excluding various wars, the Great Depression, etc, what’s left?  The 1950’s?  Maybe if you were a white male.  In any case, hardly representative of our country’s past. — Dave Hinds

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: How disheartening! : My wife and I have decided to begin camping this year and through recent : Christmas and birthday gifts, accumulated enough gear to be fairly prepared : campers.  This year will consist mostly of car camping, with aspirations to : become backpackers as our experience and skills accumulate. : While the lure of camping and the wilderness are strong to us, the only : concern that we still have is that of being robbed or (worse) harassed by : others.  Your disappointing story only strengthens this concern. : This is a special concern since one of our major motives to camp is weekend : access to great fly fishing.  Plans to do so would have us both a distance : from camp while fishing and no eyes on our site and gear for hours at a : time. : Can any of the experienced members of the group offer suggestions to keeping : our campsite and gear secure to prevent such occurrences?  Of all the : camping & outdoors books we’ve read, none address the subject! I’d reckon the that a brandnew shiny car would be more likely to be broken into than an old heap. —    "do the boogie woogie in the South American way"                            Rhumba Boogie- Hank Snow (1955)

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| We have camped for years and never have had an incident, so try to | consider this unusual.  You should be fine if you go to a state park, | priviate park or National Forest. Alot of the parks have locked gates | now. (you get the combo)  If you "boondock" you stand more of a chance | of being vandalized or tormented.  Be positive about your future plans, | you will enjoy the outdoors, I’m sure. | Happy Trails, | Joyce National Forests are not necessarily "safe". In my state (NH) we have had many incidents of trouble at National Forest campgrounds (some of these being "backcountry" sites), mainly caused by drunkeness. In one case a guy went after people in another nearby tent with a chain saw. Car break-ins at trailheads are extremely common here also.

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We have camped for years and never have had an incident, so try to consider this unusual.  You should be fine if you go to a state park, priviate park or National Forest. Alot of the parks have locked gates now. (you get the combo)  If you "boondock" you stand more of a chance of being vandalized or tormented.  Be positive about your future plans, you will enjoy the outdoors, I’m sure. Happy Trails, Joyce

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Eddie Babin wrote It’s a tragedy it’s come to this where the only person in hundreds of square miles may be one you can’t trust.  I don’t know if anyone has provided any real statistical evidence but it’s my firm belief that you are much less likely to encounter people problems in the backcountry than anywhere else.  As a matter of fact, there’s no place I feel safer.  That, however, does not quell my apprehension about trail head parking. ed

It is pretty shocking to hear about people being robbed in the bush camping. I live in Canada and I have heard about a cabin being broken into but never a tent in a camp site. I often go camping/hiking as far in to the wilderness as I can go and even though I sometimes rarely see other people, when I do I am usually more wary. How sad is society becoming!

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… It is pretty shocking to hear about people being robbed in the bush camping. I live in Canada and I have heard about a cabin being broken into but never a tent in a camp site. I often go camping/hiking as far in to the wilderness as I can go and even though I sometimes rarely see other people, when I do I am usually more wary. How sad is society becoming!

Becoming? I don’t have any reason to think that things are getting any worse. There is a part in each of us, some more than others, who will prey on others and behave opportunistically, particularly when the chances of being caught are virtually zero. Witness rioting and looting in cities after sporting matches, looting when public order breaks down after a natural disaster, and those itinerant cowboys and trappers who carried their heavy, short range 6-guns — they had them, not for fun, but to enforce their understanding of fairness, at least for 50 yards in all directions. Most people in the backcountry, like most people in the city, will treat you pretty generously, and certainly not rip you off. But the risk is always there, so don’t bet your lunch money (or your backcountry survival) on the goodness of your fellow man or woman. — Jeff ORBS Classifieds – Free outdoor classified ads     http://home.pacbell.net/orbs ORBS Escrow – Affordable safety for online buyers and sellers     http://home.pacbell.net/orbs/oe-homepage.html

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You’ve got to read more history.  Read about the really old not-so-good days of the areas you wander through.  Every one of them has stories of murders, thefts, some have cannibalism, etc..  Society is not necessarily becoming something.  You may just be becoming more aware.  For really good old fashioned fun, read about the old Natchez Trace.  You’d not have gone near it in its true ‘wilderness’ phase.

 I sometimes rarely see other people, when I do I am usually more wary. How sad is society becoming!

—– I’m going to live forever or die trying. I only answer my email every few months, on average.   Patience helps.   http://www.visi.com/~cyli

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: While the lure of camping and the wilderness are strong to us, the only : concern that we still have is that of being robbed or (worse) harassed by : others.  Your disappointing story only strengthens this concern. : This is a special concern since one of our major motives to camp is weekend : access to great fly fishing.  Plans to do so would have us both a distance : from camp while fishing and no eyes on our site and gear for hours at a : time. : Can any of the experienced members of the group offer suggestions to keeping : our campsite and gear secure to prevent such occurrences?  Of all the : camping & outdoors books we’ve read, none address the subject! It’s a tragedy it’s come to this where the only person in hundreds of square miles may be one you can’t trust.  I don’t know if anyone has provided any real statistical evidence but it’s my firm belief that you are much less likely to encounter people problems in the backcountry than anywhere else.  As a matter of fact, there’s no place I feel safer.  That, however, does not quell my apprehension about trail head parking. ed — | 21st Century Systems -+- http://www.tf-centsys.com |

Response:

You cached them to keep them from being stolen in the first place, yet you imply your faith/trust in your fellow man is somehow diminished and ask how far you have to go in hiding your cache?  Did you lock your vehicle?  If so, why?

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How disheartening! My wife and I have decided to begin camping this year and through recent Christmas and birthday gifts, accumulated enough gear to be fairly prepared campers.  This year will consist mostly of car camping, with aspirations to become backpackers as our experience and skills accumulate. While the lure of camping and the wilderness are strong to us, the only concern that we still have is that of being robbed or (worse) harassed by others.  Your disappointing story only strengthens this concern. This is a special concern since one of our major motives to camp is weekend access to great fly fishing.  Plans to do so would have us both a distance from camp while fishing and no eyes on our site and gear for hours at a time. Can any of the experienced members of the group offer suggestions to keeping our campsite and gear secure to prevent such occurrences?  Of all the camping & outdoors books we’ve read, none address the subject! Thanks! –Andy Charlotte, NC

Response:

How disheartening! While the lure of camping and the wilderness are strong to us, the only concern that we still have is that of being robbed or (worse) harassed by others.  Your disappointing story only strengthens this concern. Can any of the experienced members of the group offer suggestions to keeping our campsite and gear secure to prevent such occurrences?  Of all the camping & outdoors books we’ve read, none address the subject!

First let me re-inforce what I understood about the original post:   The theift was by, persons who were given to vandelism and thieft. IE: the gate was broken open as well as the items stolen. This is not common, IMHO, to many camping situations.  I have been car camping off and on for 20 years.  I have yet to be victim of a thieft, except by raccoons and squirles who help themselves to unsecured food. I am a car camper and have primarily used state camp grounds which are pretty well petroled.   I also find it interesting that when talk of camping security is brought up, no one seems to be concerned at all about the home they have left miles behind.   It does seem to me that an unprotected house  abandoned for a week or more would be a much easier target than a campsite where people are at had and may re-appear at any moment.  Yet no one is the least bit alarmed by leaving thier home, but fearful nearly to the point of panic about their camp site, or am I just nieve? But the case remains the same, I do not know that their is any absolute safeguard against people who are determined to be criminal. Whether the domicile is permanent or temporary. Fortuantely I choose to believe, and have discovered that criminals are still in the manority {except in Washington, DC }. Regards David Ronk To reply via e-mail remove "not_" from address.     By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer      meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)      (1)(C), it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to      such equipment, punishable by action to recover actual monetary      loss, or $500, whichever is greater, for EACH violation.    Please do not send unsolicited commercial mail to my email account.

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David, Sorry to read about your snowshoe theft at Dolly Sods. I’ve visited there dozens of times without incident (though not in the winter). I hope yours was an isolated incident. I’d suggest that the idiot(s) who broke down the gate may not have been the same ones to steal your stuff. The gate-breaking sounds like the act of some yahoo who’s just pissed off to find a closed road, thinking (wrongly) that he has a right to travel that road. I can certainly imagine that the same dickweed, in his pissed off state, would also be given to stealing someone else’s gear. However, I’d also bet that the sort of loser who would ram a gate with his car couldn’t be bothered to walk 100 feet off road to find your snowshoes–unless they were clearly visible from the road (but sounds like they weren’t). I’m thinking somebody probably just stumbled across them, and thought they were "easy pickings." Again, sorry; and thanks for the warning–I’ll be more careful there in the future. Rob

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January 25th, 1999 This past weekend, John, Jeff and I set out from Maryland on a four-hour drive to Monongahela National Forest, in West Virginia.  Expecting winter weather, John and I brought our new, unused Yuba XSV-32’s, while our friend Jeff brought along some snowshoes that he had rented from REI (just in case anyone hears anything, they were Atlas 1033’s (9" x 29")).  When we got to Dolly Sods on Thursday evening, the final gate on SR 75, about 3 miles from the plateau, was locked.  There were about three inches of wet snow on the road surface, so thinking that there would be more up on the plateau, we strapped snowshoes to our packs and headed up.  Once up on top, a warm wind and melting permafrost greeted us.  We hastily made camp, since we had arrived after sundown, and bedded down for the night.  In the morning, we packed up our gear, took a look at the forecast, and decided to stash the snowshoes.  We chose a location 100 feet away from the road and well shielded by dense pine trees and stashed the

Question:

Hi Group, Gretchen and I are traveling to a fly tying expo in Eugene, OR (in the new car I bought her today for our wedding anniversary) and will be off line for a couple of days. Don’t worry, we will answer your emails as soon as possible. Any one in the Eugene area stop by the Lane County fair grounds and say hello. We would love to me all of you. — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products http://www.btsflyfishing.com Tiemco quality hooks, under $6.00 pkg/50

Response:

: Gretchen and I are traveling to a fly tying expo in Eugene, OR (in the : new car I bought her today for our wedding anniversary) and will be off : line for a couple of days. Don’t worry, we will answer your emails as : soon as possible. Any one in the Eugene area stop by the Lane County : fair grounds and say hello. We would love to me all of you. I’ll be there if you will buy me a car Al.  How many years must I "put in" before I get one? Have fun. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

Hi Group, Gretchen and I are traveling to a fly tying expo in Eugene, OR (in the new car I bought her today for our wedding anniversary) and will be off line for a couple of days. Don’t worry, we will answer your emails as soon as possible. Any one in the Eugene area stop by the Lane County fair grounds and say hello. We would love to me all of you. — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products http://www.btsflyfishing.com Tiemco quality hooks, under $6.00 pkg/50

Happy Anniversary Al and Gretchen!!! Roger

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Question:

Yep. Steve

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: I came across something at the Americas for Medical Progress web site you                        <clip<clip<clip : has since been taken over by animal "rights" types. : For more info, see http://www.ampef.org/hsus.htm : "The HSUS bankrolled ballot initiatives in six states in the fall of : 1996, ostensibly aimed at hunters in Oregon, California, Washington : state, Michigan, Idaho and Massachusetts. The real goal behind each : campaign is to remove wildlife and habitat policies from the professional : stewardship of state wildlife managers. : Americans for Medical Progress, the key national research advocacy group : that monitors the animal rights agenda, predicted the HSUS ballot          <clip<clip<clip : and laboratory animal issues and other issues that are appropriate" in the : future."… There was an initiative here in Michigan this last election dealing with the taking of bear over bait or with hounds.  The initiative would have banned both practices. When I found out what was  behind this initiative, it became clear to me it was nothing more than an anti-hunting measure.  The person behind getting it on the ballot claimed it would help bear hunting because it would license more hunters to get the same harvest.  Well, it would also have banned bear hunting during anytime in which baiting for any other specie was allowed. Since we have a deer season that runs from October first to the end of of December, there wouldn’t really be any time to have a bear season. There were a couple of other issues that indicated to me that this whole thing was vacant of anything substantive and was just an anti-hunting measure. Fortunately, it was defeated *SOUNDLY* and another measure passed that gives wildlife management to the professionals. PETA and apparently HSUS supported the initiative. Kind regards, Steve Kernosky Michigan Tech University

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This is an end result of a society that was tied to the land and understood that as a hunk of sentient protoplasm we ALWAYS have an impact on our environment in conflict with a new majority of voters that understand the interplay of man and nature due to their intimate knowlege born of countless Disney live action cartoons. Baiting bears is by no means a sure and easy enterprise as anyone who has tried it will tell you. Certainly not a ‘fish in a barrel’ sport as it has been represented. Cougars, as all animals, will populate until an external force checks the population growth. This force has been a limited amount of range and man. Now that man has been removed from the equation that will leave range as the controlling factor. Deer suffer from years of poor forage, ducks suffer from dry years that limit the breeding and rearing areas. It has been proven for many years that upland bird populations flucuate due to environmental factors and that sport hunting has little effect. All of these studies have been paid for with HUNTING dollars and the labor of untold hunters have improved more habitat than all the animal rights groups combined. Through our license fees, duck stamp funds and Pittman-Robertson monies we employ, and gladly, thousands of professional  game managers to help us improve the number,quality and health of the game that we pursue.   It is astonishing to me that I would have to conduct a wildlife biology 101 session to defend my right to pursue in a regulated fashion game animals and birds that owe their existence and health to a population of dedicated hunters like me.     This ‘rose colored’ view of nature that has been promoted by many animal groups is more than just irrational, it is incorrect! As with the old growth controversy DAMN THE FACTS, I WANT TO FEEL GOOD!! Leave game animal management to people who have at least some basis for their opinion other than what they are fed by Hollywood. A.J.Thramer

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This is an end result of a society that was tied to the land and understood that as a hunk of sentient protoplasm we ALWAYS have an impact on our environment in conflict with a new majority of voters that understand the interplay of man and nature due to their intimate knowlege born of countless Disney live action cartoons. Baiting bears is by no means a sure and easy enterprise as anyone who has tried it will tell

you. Just go to a garbage dump and try to avoid tripping over them Certainly not a ‘fish in a barrel’ sport as it has been represented. Cougars, as all animals, will populate until an external force checks the population growth. This force has been a limited amount of range and man.

More and more and more and more and more limited range all the time. Now that man has been removed from the equation that will leave range as the controlling factor.

Too bad the wildlife managers don’t have a say about where the next subdivision is going to go up. Since the man made hunting pressure is off, you should by your argument have the best of both worlds.  Wildlife populations will go through the roof, so you will practicly trip over critters without the use of baits.  Why, you’ll probably be able to hunt them from your living room window in that new condo development that went up in what used to be a forest.  Deer suffer from years of poor forage, ducks suffer from dry years that limit the breeding and rearing areas. It has been proven for many years that upland bird populations flucuate due to environmental factors and that sport hunting has little effect. All of these studies have been paid for with HUNTING dollars

This is supposed to convince me that hunting has no affect on populations? I generally agree that hunters put far more into environment and habitat preservation than the public is aware of, but come on!  Get some more weight behind your citation of authorities.  Does the concept of scueing and bias mean anything to you?  and the labor of untold hunters have improved more habitat than all the animal rights groups combined.

Generalizations mean nothing and lead nowhere! Through our license fees, duck stamp funds and Pittman-Robertson monies we employ, and gladly, thousands of professional  game managers to help us improve the number,quality and health of the game that we pursue.   It is astonishing to me that I would have to conduct a wildlife biology 101 session to defend my right to pursue in a regulated fashion game animals and birds that owe their existence and health to a population of dedicated hunters like me.  

Its really nice that you are so broad minded(sarcasm dripping)  What do I have to teach you about biology to make YOU understand that having a lot of a selected species to shoot and kill is by no means an indicator of a healthy environment.  It just means you’ve done an excellent job of elliminating a lot of diversity to make room for your particular favorite species, based solely on what you like to shoot and NOT on what is good for the environment.  If this was not the case, we would not be loosing over 200 species per year to extinction.   This ‘rose colored’ view of nature that has been promoted by many animal groups is more than just irrational, it is incorrect! As with the old growth controversy DAMN THE FACTS, I WANT TO FEEL GOOD!! Leave game animal management to people who have at least some basis for their opinion other than what they are fed by Hollywood. A.J.Thramer

What rose coloured view are you talking about?  What is irrational?  Be specific man!  Its pretty hard to argue a point that has never been made. I really don’t know what your background is, but I find it really, really repugnant that you can talk about generalizations like hunters having some superior knowledge and understanding of the environment and talk about Old Growth Forest issues as being contraversial.  Its not a cotraversy, its a tragedy!   You want to let the last bits and remanents to be cut down and managed? What happened to all the other 95% that we cut down and managed?  Where were your experts then?  Probably looking over the blue prints for their new condo, that’s where! Its this kind of lame, unfocussed hogwash that creates the kind of polarity that keeps people from doing what’s right instead of doing whats best for themselves. Just MHO Mike

Response:

In fact, the initiative did not outlaw baiting or hound hunting for bear.  It just made it illegal for sport hunters to use these techniques.  It’s perfectly OK for govt. employees and "researchers" and presumably AR activists to use bait to attract bears.   Govt. agents are still allowed to use bait and hounds to kill bears.   Seems like it’s only cruel and barbaric to use hounds or bait if you do it for sport, and it generates revenues. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I came across something at the Americas for Medical Progress web site you   might find interesting. BTW, HSUS is an acronym for the Humane Society of   the United States. It used to be an animal welfare organization but it   has since been taken over by animal "rights" types.   For more info, see http://www.ampef.org/hsus.htm   "The HSUS bankrolled ballot initiatives in six states in the fall of   1996, ostensibly aimed at hunters in Oregon, California, Washington   state, Michigan, Idaho and Massachusetts. The real goal behind each   campaign is to remove wildlife and habitat policies from the professional   stewardship of state wildlife managers. For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  It was hardly a radical animal rights initiative as is implied above.  THe Oregon initiative was an attempt to reverse an earlier decision to outlaw the practice in that state.  It failed. cheers,         -tgades

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Newsgroups: alt.fishing,rec.outdoors.fishing,rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    Organization: AM Construction   In fact, the initiative did not outlaw baiting or hound hunting for   bear.  It just made it illegal for sport hunters to use these   techniques.  It’s perfectly OK for govt. employees and "researchers" and   presumably AR activists to use bait to attract bears.     Govt. agents are still allowed to use bait and hounds to kill bears.     Seems like it’s only cruel and barbaric to use hounds or bait if you do   it for sport, and it generates revenues.   Steve

OK.  I’ve no clue why, but I’ll take the bait.  The initiative made it illegal to take bears using bait and/or hounds.   Would you care to tell us where in the hell "Govt. agents", "researchers", and "AR Activists" are using bait and/or hounds to kill bears?  Further, if you can actually cite a real and documented example, then tell us when and why it happened. -tgades

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For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations. In Colorado, we can no longer hunt spring bears, unless they’re gay. TimW (Stolen from a cartoon which lampooned the Amendment 2 passing the popular vote)

And don’t get caught with a trap. I hear that the next election, they are going after using hooks on fish. Paul

Response:

First of all, I actually read the initiative.  Unfortunately I don’t have a copy here in front of me, so this is from memory.  One of the local papers had an editorial slamming the initiative because it didn’t "Outlaw" the practices, just made them illegal for common folk. The text of the initiative stated (not a quote, but the gist) that Wildlife agents or their assigns could use bait or hounds to hunt down and kill problem bears.  Read "bears that are annoying people".  Sort of gives the lie to the idea that the practices are just tooooo barbaric and unfair. It stated that bait could be used to attract bears for "research purposes," whatever that means.  (But I thought that we didn’t want the bears to get used to people feeding them…) Anyone who has ever hunted bear in Western Washington brush knows that the traditional method of controlling bear numbers (sport hunting) just went out the window.  Incidental kills simply will not keep pace with population growth.  Ain’t no way you’re going to be able to target an area and reduce the bear population without resorting to bait and/or hounds. Well, maybe poisoned poodles……no wait, that’s bait…… Of course we could mount a multimillion dollar campaign to supply the bruins with condoms. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK.  I’ve no clue why, but I’ll take the bait.  The initiative made it illegal to take bears using bait and/or hounds. Would you care to tell us where in the hell "Govt. agents", "researchers", and "AR Activists" are using bait and/or hounds to kill bears?  Further, if you can actually cite a real and documented example, then tell us when and why it happened. -tgades

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  It was hardly a radical animal rights initiative as is implied above.  THe Oregon initiative was an attempt to reverse an earlier decision to outlaw the practice in that state.  It failed. cheers,       -tgades tgades, Where have you been? Any animal rights initiative is RADICAL! It’s a well-known fact among sportsmen that the ARA’s modus operandi is "divide and conquer". They attack minorities (bear-baiters, Salmon snaggers) within the hunting and fishing sports, hoping that other hunters/fishers won’t care because it’s not "their" type of hunting/fishing. Attitudes like yours ensure that the ARA’s tactics work! Todd

The other method they use is to create paranoia through undercover fanatical defenders of the insane under the guise of "I’m just sticking up for the minorities no matter how ludicress it sounds". Scully and Mulder will expose your devious plot.  You don’t fool me! Mike

Response:

For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  

In Colorado, we can no longer hunt spring bears, unless they’re gay. TimW (Stolen from a cartoon which lampooned the Amendment 2 passing the popular vote)

Response:

     < snip "The HSUS bankrolled ballot initiatives in six states in the fall of 1996, ostensibly aimed at hunters in Oregon, California, Washington state, Michigan, Idaho and Massachusetts.

Hi Jim, The Washington State initiative is the only one I know about.  It only prohibits bear baiting and hound hunting for cougars.  I don’t hunt but "some of my best friends . . .".  Many hunters supported the initiative but the anti crowd used wild and false statements (along the lines of "they wanna take away your right to hunt, they wanna take away your way of life") in their attempt to defeat the initiative.  Fortunately, the public saw through their BS and passed it. My decision not to hunt is based solely on the fact that it doesn’t really appeal to me.  I don’t view hunting as any worse or better than fishing which I love.  I voted in favor of this initiative just as I would vote to prohibit snagging of fish if it weren’t already illegal. August Kristoferson Watercolor Fish Art http://www.eskimo.com/~augustk

Response:

 I came across something at the Americas for Medical Progress web site you  might find interesting. BTW, HSUS is an acronym for the Humane Society of  the United States. It used to be an animal welfare organization but it  has since been taken over by animal "rights" types.  For more info, see http://www.ampef.org/hsus.htm  "The HSUS bankrolled ballot initiatives in six states in the fall of  1996, ostensibly aimed at hunters in Oregon, California, Washington  state, Michigan, Idaho and Massachusetts. The real goal behind each  campaign is to remove wildlife and habitat policies from the professional  stewardship of state wildlife managers.

Unfortunately for our wallets, the initiative passed in Washington.  For those who don’t bother to look at the end result of their vote — the state of Washington, expecting the measure to pass, had already lined up professional hunters with dogs to handle the necessary extermination of these animals when they exceed practical levels of population. The state will now have to pay for the service. The state of Oregon failed to pass the needed repeal of a similar law. There the state found that the number of animals they had to _pay_ to have exterminated was equivalent to the number that sport hunters usually paid for the right to hunt them.  Definitely a lose-lose situation for the state.  I’ve heard the cost is a couple of million annually. Even California is now having a pretty significant problem with cougars moving into populated areas making it unsafe to let the toddler play in the backyard.

Response:

My decision not to hunt is based solely on the fact that it doesn’t really appeal to me.  I don’t view hunting as any worse or better than fishing which I love.  I voted in favor of this initiative just as I would vote to prohibit snagging of fish if it weren’t already illegal.

In my view of the universe, the achilles heel of this legislation is in the fact that it takes "wildlife management" out of the hands of the professionals (ie. Departments of Fish and Game/Wildlife [admittedly an arguable statement, but certainly not improved upon by asking Joe/ Jane-weaned-on-Disney-Classics to take up this responsibility]).  Why do we believe that Fish and Game managers allow detrimental (some would claim "cruel’) practices to continue despite convincing evidence "that even a layman can understand"?  Could it be that the issue is more complex than we appreciate?  Let the wildlife management community do their job.  We should be able to make input into the decision making process.  But, let’s not take the decision making out of the hands of the trained professionals until they give us cause. Clearly, with 27 ballot initiatives on the Oregon ballet this year, the initiative process is being abused.  I always ask myself– "Is this a matter that requires a change to the state constitution, with all the attendant costs, to address the issue?"   The answer is usually, "No". I guess it goes back to the thread about big government vs. individual responsibility.  But, in reverse!  Now were talking about big government (ie. the voting owners of the government) trying to dictate how the little wildlife management community (probably a government agency working with state schools) carries out its responsibilities. Life is weird when you’re left-handed! Charley

Response:

  I came across something at the Americas for Medical Progress web site you   might find interesting. BTW, HSUS is an acronym for the Humane Society of   the United States. It used to be an animal welfare organization but it   has since been taken over by animal "rights" types.   For more info, see http://www.ampef.org/hsus.htm   "The HSUS bankrolled ballot initiatives in six states in the fall of   1996, ostensibly aimed at hunters in Oregon, California, Washington   state, Michigan, Idaho and Massachusetts. The real goal behind each   campaign is to remove wildlife and habitat policies from the professional   stewardship of state wildlife managers.

For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  It was hardly a radical animal rights initiative as is implied above.  THe Oregon initiative was an attempt to reverse an earlier decision to outlaw the practice in that state.  It failed. cheers,         -tgades

Response:

For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  It was hardly a radical animal rights initiative as is implied above.  THe Oregon initiative was an attempt to reverse an earlier decision to outlaw the practice in that state.  It failed. cheers,    -tgades

You might want to re-read the the ballot question carefully. Question 1 in Massachusetts was advertised to outlaw the use of spring traps in the state. At the End of the lengthy ballot question it also read that the laws are to be changed to allow non sportsman(AKA ARA’s) to serve on the board that governs hunting and fishing in this state. Unfortunatly all the TV ads showed thirty year old footage of animals including household pets caught in the traps with no mention of the second part of the question and question 1 passed by a 3-2 margin. Hopefully this can be changed before the ARA’s take over the board and try to ban hunting and fishing in this state.(Don’t think it can’t happen!!)

Response:

For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  It was hardly a radical animal rights initiative as is implied above.  THe Oregon initiative was an attempt to reverse an earlier decision to outlaw the practice in that state.  It failed. cheers,    -tgades

tgades, Where have you been? Any animal rights initiative is RADICAL! It’s a well-known fact among sportsmen that the ARA’s modus operandi is "divide and conquer". They attack minorities (bear-baiters, Salmon snaggers) within the hunting and fishing sports, hoping that other hunters/fishers won’t care because it’s not "their" type of hunting/fishing. Attitudes like yours ensure that the ARA’s tactics work! Todd

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Question:

Asa rule, the weather there is really crummy during that time of year. The crystal clear waters and warm weather that all of us are sold on is about three months away. This period is right during their Winter-Spring transition. If you are lucky, though, you might be able to pick up a small black marlin. I was there last august specifically for that, but we got blown out. For more info on that fishing, contact Capt. Craig "Sparrow" Denham at 079 453 217 which is his phone and fax. For more information on General fishing, contact Carol North at Cairns Reef Charter Services at 070 31 4742 ph. or 070 31 4610 fax. Let me know if you need anymore information. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  The Iast week in August my wife and I are going to Austrailia  and we will be spending 5 days cruising around the Great Barrier Reef and I will be doing a lot of fly fishing. I would like to know if anyone could give me some info on the type of fish I can expect to catch and what patterns will be good for this area. Thanks Bill.

Response:

 The Iast week in August my wife and I are going to Austrailia  and we will be spending 5 days cruising around the Great Barrier Reef and I will be doing a lot of fly fishing. I would like to know if anyone could give me some info on the type of fish I can expect to catch and what patterns will be good for this area. Thanks Bill.

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Hey kids. The steelhead are here, the steelhead are here. And we *finally* got a ffishing shop in this town!  I’m a happy guy. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.

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So… where is this new flyfishing shop that has finally come to the center of the universe, Moscow? Inquiring minds want to know. Is there somewhere else besides WallyWorld, Husky and Garts? Tim

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