Question:

…….no one in Roff knows me….

I do!  I do! Idiot. Wolfgang

Response:

I’m going to give it a rest regarding Mike Connor as long as he discontinues the attacks and uncouth name calling. I have not, no matter what any bottom dweller in Roff would like to believe, started any of this pathetic nonsense.

The funniest thing I have heard in my 45 years… Paul

Response:

"My E-mail is always open to everyone, but  E-mails are private things to be read in private" I’m a little confused?? Lawrence Manzer New Brunswick

Response:

"My E-mail is always open to everyone, but  E-mails are private things to be read in private" I’m a little confused?? Lawrence Manzer New Brunswick

I know.  New Brunswick doesn’t have as much oxygen as the lower 48. Take deep breaths Lawrence. George Gehrke

Response:

I’m going to give it a rest regarding Mike Connor as long as he discontinues the attacks and uncouth name calling. I have not, no matter what any bottom dweller in Roff would like to believe, started any of this pathetic nonsense. The funniest thing I have heard in my 45 years… Paul

SEE, Paul!  There you go again! George Gehrke "who ended this thread two posts ago"

Response:

"My E-mail is always open to everyone, but  E-mails are private things to be read in private" I’m a little confused??

It’s very long, complicated, confusing, amazing, not a little amusing, sad, extraordinary……um ……and a whole bunch of other adjectives. The short version.  Mike asked George not to send him any more emails some time ago.  He made it quite clear that failure to comply with this request would result in the emails being posted to ROFF and the rest, as they say, is history.  Opinions vary on whether George is genuinely and thoroughly demented or merely genuinely demented but still sane enough to be responsible for his actions.  It should not prove difficult to determine who allies him(or her)self with which camp but, for the record, it don’t matter to me.    :) Wolfgang

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "My E-mail is always open to everyone, but  E-mails are private things to be read in private" I’m a little confused?? Lawrence Manzer New Brunswick I know.  New Brunswick doesn’t have as much oxygen as the lower 48. Take deep breaths Lawrence.

Ah, PERFECT timing!  You see what I mean, Lawrence?      :) Wolfgang p.s. shhhh!  don’t let on that you know that new brunswick isn’t a u.s.

Response:

I just can’t contain myself any longer…. New Brunswick   1.. Abbr. NB or N.B. A province of eastern Canada on the Gulf of St. Lawrence. Part of French Acadia and then the province of Nova Scotia, it became a separate province in 1784 after an influx of Loyalists from the newly independent United States. New Brunswick joined Nova Scotia, Quebec, and Ontario to form the confederated Dominion of Canada in 1867. Fredericton is the capital and St. John the largest city. Population: 696,405.   2.. A landmass not owned and not part of the USA or any other country except for Canada. Lawrence Manzer New Brunswick Canada (I think)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "My E-mail is always open to everyone, but  E-mails are private things to be read in private" I’m a little confused?? Lawrence Manzer New Brunswick I know.  New Brunswick doesn’t have as much oxygen as the lower 48. Take deep breaths Lawrence. Ah, PERFECT timing!  You see what I mean, Lawrence?      :) Wolfgang p.s. shhhh!  don’t let on that you know that new brunswick isn’t a u.s.

Response:

Spoil-sport! Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just can’t contain myself any longer….   2.. A landmass not owned and not part of the USA or any other country except for Canada. Lawrence Manzer New Brunswick Canada (I think)

Response:

I’, George here really hasn’t changed except Roff has.

        that is exactly right.  and that is because roff is darwinian, and is in the process of rejecting you.  the day will come, not that long from this day, that you will simply be a bad memory. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just can’t contain myself any longer…. New Brunswick   1.. Abbr. NB or N.B. A province of eastern Canada on the Gulf of St. Lawrence. Part of French Acadia and then the province of Nova Scotia, it became a separate province in 1784 after an influx of Loyalists from the newly independent United States. New Brunswick joined Nova Scotia, Quebec, and Ontario to form the confederated Dominion of Canada in 1867. Fredericton is the capital and St. John the largest city. Population: 696,405.   2.. A landmass not owned and not part of the USA or any other country except for Canada. Lawrence Manzer New Brunswick Canada (I think)

Uh oh!  Good God ya’ll, don’t just stand there!  Quick, what’s the number for 911?  Hurry, for pity’s sake, he’s swallowed a fuckin dictionary!     Wolfgang

Response:

that is exactly right.  and that is because roff is darwinian, and is in the process of rejecting you.  the day will come, not that long from this day, that you will simply be a bad memory.

you’re such an appreciative and faithful friend. as i pointed  out in this thread.  crow begets crow.  now, if you only understood and was more responsible to yourself, perhaps your misguided ravings towards old friends would cease?  that is too much to expect from a raving raven, huh? bad memories indeed?  you have a lot of nerve to talk buster because if you’re anything, you’re not darwinian at all wayne.  I am but a mirror of yourself.  haven’t you got that figured out yet wayne? think man!  think. Your pal in the great northwest, George "who is being nice.  very nice"

Response:

  The short version.  Mike asked George not to send him any more emails some time ago.  He made it quite clear that failure to comply with this request would result in the emails being posted to ROFF and the rest, as they say, is history.  Opinions vary on whether George is genuinely and thoroughly demented or merely genuinely demented but still sane enough to be responsible for his actions.  It should not prove difficult to determine who allies him(or her)self with which camp but, for the record, it don’t matter to me.    :) Wolfgang

Oh yes it does.   It matters a lot to you.  You live on misery Weirdwolf. George Gehrke had you figured out years ago You’re not a bad guy Wolfie, you’re just cofused about your importance in life.  Without others, you would have no identy in Roff. tilt* !

Response:

Read the post and try for comprehension.  NORTH is UP.  It’s up Weirdwolf. UP, UP, UP on the map . . . dummy. George Gehrke wake up pal.  wake up.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "My E-mail is always open to everyone, but  E-mails are private things to be read in private" I’m a little confused?? Lawrence Manzer New Brunswick I know.  New Brunswick doesn’t have as much oxygen as the lower 48. Take deep breaths Lawrence. Ah, PERFECT timing!  You see what I mean, Lawrence?      :) Wolfgang p.s. shhhh!  don’t let on that you know that new brunswick isn’t a u.s.

Response:

Read the post and try for comprehension.  NORTH is UP.  It’s up Weirdwolf. UP, UP, UP on the map . . . dummy. George Gehrke wake up pal.  wake up.

Er, ‘cuse me, von Wrongtoffen, but "north" ain’t "up," either on the map or otherwise.  And I have no idea what may be up "Weirdwolf," but it ain’t north, neither…yeah, you musta been one real serious asset to the Commies during that little to-do in Korea…heck they probably even have an "Order of National Flag" waitin’ for you, if only you could find your way there to collect it…yessir, I can see it now: Kim Chong-il and "P’yongyang Ginkles," whatta photo-op…maybe your buddy Ted could fly you and his ex over to relive your glory days…

Response:

Read the post and try for comprehension.  NORTH is UP.  It’s up Weirdwolf. UP, UP, UP on the map . . . dummy. George Gehrke wake up pal.  wake up.

The ladies will, unfortunately (well, maybe it’s really fortunate when you think about it, but that’s another matter entirely), be unable to comprehend this on quite the visceral level that a man can, but ya know how ya cringe every time ya see some poor bastard get hit in the nuts on one of those funniest home video shows?  THAT’S what life is like for your would be supporters every time they see a post come up listing you as the author. Thanks. I KNEW I could count on you.      :) Idiot. Wolfgang

Response:

I just can’t contain myself any longer…. New Brunswick   1.. Abbr. NB or N.B. A province of eastern Canada on the Gulf of St. Lawrence. Part of French Acadia and then the province of Nova Scotia, it became a separate province in 1784 after an influx of Loyalists from the newly independent United States. New Brunswick joined Nova Scotia, Quebec, and Ontario to form the confederated Dominion of Canada in 1867. Fredericton is the capital and St. John the largest city. Population: 696,405.   2.. A landmass not owned and not part of the USA or any other country except for Canada.

       3. A late model bowling ball.

Response:

I have to admit, you got me on that one. Lawrence Manzer NB

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just can’t contain myself any longer…. New Brunswick   1.. Abbr. NB or N.B. A province of eastern Canada on the Gulf of St. Lawrence. Part of French Acadia and then the province of Nova Scotia, it became a separate province in 1784 after an influx of Loyalists from the newly independent United States. New Brunswick joined Nova Scotia, Quebec, and Ontario to form the confederated Dominion of Canada in 1867. Fredericton is the capital and St. John the largest city. Population: 696,405.   2.. A landmass not owned and not part of the USA or any other country except for Canada.        3. A late model bowling ball.

Response:

Idiot. Wolfgang

Talking to yourself again Weirdwolf?  You’re not an idiot.  You are a protracted peace in a state of confusion.  Just remember, if you’re an idiot that makes you a genius.  That’s not so bad. George Gehrke "caring about you"

Response:

I’m going to give it a rest regarding Mike Connor as long as he discontinues the attacks and uncouth name calling. I have not, no matter what any bottom dweller in Roff would like to believe, started any of this pathetic nonsense. I regard most in Roff as really neat people and as long as people are civil to me, I will always be respectful towards them.  My policy will continue to be that of condemning in private and praising in public.  If everyone in Roff would do the same and open their E-mail boxes like men, then I think it would be a step in the right direction for them to talk to each other in a manly and mature fashion. My E-mail is always open to everyone, but  E-mails are private things to be read in private and are not an open license to call others names or to demean them in private either. Men of logic use the best communication tools possible to get their points across.  The ability to tell a man to go to hell and make them look forward to the trip is known as "Rocky Mountain Diplomacy" which is something I hope to teach Wayne Harrison, given enough time . . . let’s say, five years? That aside, George here really hasn’t changed except Roff has.  When anyone dishes out nonsense, they should be able to eat a plate of raw crow in return.  Crow begot crow from this author.  At least, I’ve always tried to be civil but the next time anyone comes knocking on my door, the invite they receive will be an immediate reaction to the first words out of their mouths.  Come as a friend.  The rest of you who are not friends with anyone will find one here.  That anyone has so many friends they can’t use another needs thought on their part. Frankly, no one in Roff knows me.  I mean, no one.  Until you do or possibly fly fish with me as I guide you down the No Name River, it would be wise you reserve judgment. That said, all I can offer is that anyone who is man enough to step up to the plate and get ready for the first pitch. STRIKE ONE!  Oh?  You didn’t see that one, huh?  Okay, care to come inside and try some fly tying instead, (?) because you can’t hit for shit. George Gehrke "wisdom comes from a life-time of studying miles of rivers and seeing thousands of fly fishermen come and go.  Some of them you never forget because of their kindnesses and pleasant nature."  gg This is why I’m going to give it a rest. Back to fly fishing for me and my web site: http://www.gink.com

Response:

Question:

Since Tony seems to be here for a bit I thought we could help him out with some flies for his local fishing back behind the body shop. I’m not sure how these would be tied though so I figured I had better get help. I imagine the Royal Scaramouche would have some red like a mugging victim, an extended body made out of a Coney Island dog, and a general silhouette like the universal New York City hand salute. Clearly the hair-wing jamoke would have a down wing tied with cat hair. Any suggestions? Cheers. Jon

Response:

I have been reading all this Germuga business and have become somewhat intrigued.  I am also a western New Yorker and have the sneaking suspicion I know this guy.  Tony – you said you have fished the Oatka.  Do you drive a maroon El Camino?  I saw a guy once there that speaks the way you type.  Any how, I feel this newsgroup deserves its own "local" pattern.  I present to you all my interpretation of the "Royal Scaramouche".  It is done in green, white, and red like the Italian flag, and is ribbed in gold like the thick neck chain that Tony surely wears.  Anybody want to attempt a hairwing Jamoke?

Pete C I think you guys is making fun of me, but its still a cool looking fly.   I like the Italian part and it looks easy to tie.  Im gonna whip up a mess of em Next time I see some guacamole on the stream doing bum stuff Ill give em one of these and say a scaramouche like you deserves one of these royal scaramouches. A couple matters I wanted to address here that you asked me.   I did use to drive one of them El Caminos and it was sort of that color but it was custome paint I did it myself.  It had one of them  small block 350s with an Edelbrock manifold and holley carb and Hooker headers and downpipes and one of them special high stall torque convertors in the tranny and a four eleven rear end with positraction.  I put all that stuff in myself so it was a custom Tony G special.  I could smoke the tires on that thing for a hundred feet or more.  It really screwed. So maybe you did see me.  I dont know.  But I got rid of it.  It was gettin old and it was getting a bad case of car cancer and it was taking too much of my valuble time there to keep on the road and running proprely and looking sharp. My cars have gotta be just so and I cant be seen in no rolling crap can it would be bad for my business.  So now its sittin out back of the shop and I take parts off of it now an then for other cars Im working on.   Cause Im fishing and huntin all the time I got me one of them new Dodge Ram 4 X 4’s pickups with the V10 and the sixteen inch wheels with them big ass tires.   Its bright red and only about 6 months old an I havent added to much to it except for a roll bar with about a zillion of them KC 100 watt halogen lights on it.  I love zappin some jamoke with em when they dont dim their high beams when Im driving at night.  You better believe that gets there attention all right.   Its not as fast as my old el camino but it gets the job done and I get me lots of complements when Im out an about.  It sits way up high so I feel like a royal scarmouche myself drving it around.  Heh. The other thing is I dont wear me no gold jewelry or any other kind of jewely for that matter except maybe on a holdiay or special day like that.   I work with too much machinery all day long to be risking getting no digits caught in nothing.  I could lose a member or somethin if I had a lot of crap danglin off of me. Well,  I gotta go.  I dont got no more time and its gonna take a few minutes to put this on the other boards.  I gotta hit the rack sos I can get out to the shop early in the AM. Thanks for the fly pattern MEOW!!!!!!! Tony G.  3133t from Medial Catastrophy and intitated by Crisis . THIS POSTED IN ALT.FAN.KARL-MALDEN.NOSE, ALT.ALIEN.VAMPIRE.FLONK.FLONK.FLONK, REC.OUTDOORS.FISHING.FLY  REC.OUTDOORS FISHING.BASS, ALT.FISHING BOYCOTT THE COLEMAN STORE FOR CENSHORSHIP www.rochesterweb.com/colemans   a.f.k-m.n.n (newbie)number of 2.

Response:

Question:

I called Scott at 7:15 yesterday morning and got his answering machine. The

cut out the other stuff so it wouldn’t piss me off any more The sun was a fiery ball touching the mountains as I was driving home. As often as I fish, today was so incredibly perfect that will remain with me for the rest of my life. bruce

As Dr. Hook once said "Beautiful". Wish I was there big Al

Response:

I called Scott at 7:15 yesterday morning and got his answering machine. The weather forcast said 47 degrees and partly cloudy. Damn, I wanted to go fishing! I Gave Scott twenty minutes and called again. This time he picked up on the second ring. "I knew it was you, he said". " I was just watching the weather channel so I knew you’d be calling."  We agreed to meet at his place in an hour. Rushing around the house, I threw a quick lunch together, grabbed my gear,and kissed my wife as I headed out the door. I noticed that the trees were starting to bud out along the river, hinting of spring just a week away as I zoomed down the interstate to meet Scott at our appointed time. We decided to float from Holter dam to Craig, hoping that the trout would be rising to midges in some of our favorite spots. If not we would fish streamers until we found rising fish. After running our shuttle we were finally on the water! Since we took Scott’s boat, I offered to row first, which he readily accepted. Floating quietly down the river I was intoxicated by the fresh smell of the Missouri as the geese honked indignantly at our passing. Everywhere were signs of spring. The greening of the willows, The myriads of ducks and geese already pairing up for nesting and the eagles screaming from the cliffs overhead. We found a pod of nice trout rising to midge emergers on a seam next to a gravel bar behind an island. Scott was using a Griffiths gnat with a wd40 emerger as a dropper. I elected to start off with a size twenty sparkle midge pattern without a dropper. Scott was fast into a 15 inch rainbow. After his third fish, I dropped my purist ways and tied on a red brassie as a dropper and in three casts was onto a fish of my own. We were able to coax a couple more fish to the fly before deciding to move on. Things slowed down for a while so we switched to streamers.  we caught a couple more  fish on brown woolybuggers but the dry fly action had stopped for the time being. The day slipped by all to quickly as we drifted down this magnificent river. We reflected on fishing trips in the past and planned trips for the future. I reminded Scott of the Skwala hatch on the Dearborn next month and the Salmon fly hatch on a small stream we keep quiet about.  All to soon we were within sight of Craig and the end of our day. " Let’s go check out that back channel above the rocks." I suggested.  Scott manuvered the boat quietly into the backwater. Two really nice fish were sipping midges just at the limits of my casting ability. The water was perfectly calm reflecting the sky and mountains in a tapestry of springtime colors. On my fifth cast the fly landed perfectly. Without hesitation,the trout poked his head out of the water and delicately plucked my "gnat" from the surface. "That’s enough for me" I told Scott as I released the chrome colored beauty. "You fish the rest of the way out." As we floated the last half mile Scott hooked and released seven trout including a beautiful nineteen inch brown. All on a woolybugger that had a blown hackle trailing behind it. "Hey if it works why change!" He laughed. The sun was a fiery ball touching the mountains as I was driving home. As often as I fish, today was so incredibly perfect that will remain with me for the rest of my life. bruce

Response:

Question:

I will be visiting a friend (who has recently moved to Salt Lake City) during the last weekend in August.  We would like to do some fly-fishing but are unsure of the waters in the area.  From what I understand, the Green is a 3+ hour drive, and that seems like a bit much for a one day outing.  What local rivers/streams are there around SLC?  Any particular shop we should check with to find our about conditions, patterns, etc…?  Any advice would be appreciated — Tom

Response:

There are a number of great rivers and streams within an hour’s drive of Salt Lake.  You could try the Provo, Ogden, and Weber rivers.  Ask your friend about the nearest Angler’s Inn for more information.  There are several in the valley. You can also check the Utah Fish Finder for current fly fishing conditions at:     http://www.utahfishfinder.com/flyfishing.shtml Fishing reports here are updated weekly. Rich Utah Fish Finder http://www.utahfishfinder.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I will be visiting a friend (who has recently moved to Salt Lake City) during the last weekend in August.  We would like to do some fly-fishing but are unsure of the waters in the area.  From what I understand, the Green is a 3+ hour drive, and that seems like a bit much for a one day outing.  What local rivers/streams are there around SLC?  Any particular shop we should check with to find our about conditions, patterns, etc…?  Any advice would be appreciated — Tom

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For Immediate Release Announcing the Boca Grande Fly fishing School’s November Session Where:  Uncle Henry’s Marina Resort in Boca Grande, Fl When:  November 14 thru 16, 1997 Levels of Experience: all levels, novice thru expert Class Size: max. 12 Instructors:  3 Theme:  "Learn to Fly Fish, not just Fly Cast" Special Features:       1. Actual fishing with your instructors 2. All instructors present at all times                         3. Minimum classroom time                         4. Instructional text book                         5. Finest Sage rods                         6. Saturday evening Bar-B-Que Includes:       1. All tackle                 2. Fishing license                 3. Lunch and refreshments                 4. Guided fishing with your instructor What to bring: hat, sunglasses, sunscreen, rain jacket, and a Sense of Humor Cost: $495.00 per angler (Family Rates available) Contact: Capt.. Pete Greenan 1-941-923-6095 or http://www.floridaflyfishing.com/FFSchools.html — http://www.floridaflyfishing.com

OK Tim, this is an ad so I consider it fair game!   — William J. Hobson, CNE,CNA Network and Computing Support Services Texas Engineering Experiment Station Phone: (409) 845-5808

Response:

PLEASE EVERY BODY dont wast your money on this, if you want real advise book a charter boat captian, they’ll teach you how to do all that with PRIVATE instruction and are usually CHEAPER. Here is one I know http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/toccoa/Default.htm#Captain -Paradoxal – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For Immediate Release Announcing the Boca Grande Fly fishing School’s November Session Where:  Uncle Henry’s Marina Resort in Boca Grande, Fl When:  November 14 thru 16, 1997 Levels of Experience: all levels, novice thru expert Class Size: max. 12 Instructors:  3 Theme:  "Learn to Fly Fish, not just Fly Cast" Special Features:       1. Actual fishing with your instructors 2. All instructors present at all times                         3. Minimum classroom time                         4. Instructional text book                         5. Finest Sage rods                         6. Saturday evening Bar-B-Que Includes:       1. All tackle                 2. Fishing license                 3. Lunch and refreshments                 4. Guided fishing with your instructor What to bring: hat, sunglasses, sunscreen, rain jacket, and a Sense of Humor Cost: $495.00 per angler (Family Rates available) Contact: Capt.. Pete Greenan 1-941-923-6095 or http://www.floridaflyfishing.com/FFSchools.html — http://www.floridaflyfishing.com

Response:

For Immediate Release Announcing the Boca Grande Fly fishing School’s November Session Where:  Uncle Henry’s Marina Resort in Boca Grande, Fl When:  November 14 thru 16, 1997 Levels of Experience: all levels, novice thru expert Class Size: max. 12 Instructors:  3 Theme:  "Learn to Fly Fish, not just Fly Cast" Special Features:       1. Actual fishing with your instructors                         2. All instructors present at all times                         3. Minimum classroom time                         4. Instructional text book                         5. Finest Sage rods                         6. Saturday evening Bar-B-Que Includes:       1. All tackle                 2. Fishing license                 3. Lunch and refreshments                 4. Guided fishing with your instructor What to bring: hat, sunglasses, sunscreen, rain jacket, and a Sense of Humor Cost: $495.00 per angler (Family Rates available) Contact: Capt.. Pete Greenan 1-941-923-6095 or http://www.floridaflyfishing.com/FFSchools.html — http://www.floridaflyfishing.com

Response:

Question:

I am new to flyfishing and heard through a local fly shop that a women’s organization is starting up in the Phoenix,AZ area.  I left my info w/ someone’s husband at the shop but haven’t heard anything. maybe someone out there knows who I can contact. My husband doesn’t really fly fish, but I expect I’ll have him converted soon.

Response:

scribed: I am new to flyfishing and heard through a local fly shop that a women’s organization is starting up in the Phoenix,AZ area.  I left my info w/ someone’s husband at the shop but haven’t heard anything. maybe someone out there knows who I can contact. My husband doesn’t really fly fish, but I expect I’ll have him converted soon. Yes…you sound as if you will. Whether he wants it or not. – "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."                                                     -Hume

That is exactly my point: if he chooses not to convert from baitcasting, that’s fine, which is exactly why I’d like to follow up on this info.  If he chooses not to join me in my new found hobby, I would like to find a place where friendly FF information is available. I’d like to think that once he sees how much fun it is, he’d like to come along.  If not, that shouldn’t impede my quest for knowledge or a nice walk in a creek.

Response:

Question:

Geez.   One extremely well-written post about the impact of campfires and 4 sub-posts about how rocks can explode.  Seems like the point is being missed. I agree with Rick.   Everything we do has an impact of some kind.  Unless we’re willing to completely vacate the backcountry,  arguing about fires is truly splitting hairs. In high backcountry I continue to obey a self-enforced policy of no fires.  I agree with those who say that you’re more in touch with nature without the glare of flames.  At the same time, there are times a fire is a natural and morally acceptable practice, and a welcome companion on a cold or wet night.   I say, use your own judgement.  If you have none, I’ll spend a bit more time cleaning up after you.  It’s a small price to pay for the wilderness. Jim Stallings  - Seabeck, Washington "Concrete is heavy; iron is hard – but the grass will prevail"   Ed Abbey

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Scott Stuart) writes:   NOTE- I don’t think I have to say, but just in case….  DONT use rocks   from the lake in your fire ring, they will explode, and send deadly   shrapnel and hot coals everywhere.   What’s all this about exploding rocks? Believe me, THEY DO EXPLODE! One time I was backpacking with my friends and we had to make a small camp site (we couldn’t find any on the trail).  I used some of the larger rocks near a small stream to make our campfire ring. It was 1-2 hrs after we got the fire started, that one of the rocks cracked (from steam preasure inside). Nobody was hurt (suprised though) but next time I know better where to find my campfire rocks! Kurt

Nah, let them NOT believe you and see it for themselves.  It’s the only way some people learn.

Response:

:    NOTE- I don’t think I have to say, but just in case….  DONT use rocks :    from the lake in your fire ring, they will explode, and send deadly :    shrapnel and hot coals everywhere.   : What’s all this about exploding rocks?  While packing in the Porky’s in the UP of Mi we built a fire ring with  rocks from the creek. Well never again,after sitting down to a meal  the damm fire blew up in our face. As luck/fate would have it no one  got hurt but several in our group had holes in there clothing from  flying rocks. In short don’t use wet rocks since there have retained  water in them and when heated steam builds up in them which means  pressure builds up in them and you get the picture by now.  Hopes this helps  Ike Grill somewhere in Wisconsin and still have sight.

Response:

  NOTE- I don’t think I have to say, but just in case….  DONT use rocks   from the lake in your fire ring, they will explode, and send deadly   shrapnel and hot coals everywhere.   What’s all this about exploding rocks?

Believe me, THEY DO EXPLODE! One time I was backpacking with my friends and we had to make a small camp site (we couldn’t find any on the trail).  I used some of the larger rocks near a small stream to make our campfire ring. It was 1-2 hrs after we got the fire started, that one of the rocks cracked (from steam preasure inside). Nobody was hurt (suprised though) but next time I know better where to find my campfire rocks! Kurt

Response:

(Joseph Scott Stuart) writes: What’s all this about exploding rocks?

"Creek rocks!" – (I’m sure someone will correct me if I get this wrong) Yes, exploding rocks.  A rock that’s been submerged (particularly   something porous like sandstone) is soaked with water.  If you put it in a   fire, it heats up.  If it heats up, too quickly for the water to escape   (which is a likely condition) the rapidly expanding water vapor inside the   rock will cause it to "explode" – marvelous "fun" about a campfire for   those so inclined… but something I would prefer to avoid. – Mark

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   NOTE- I don’t think I have to say, but just in case….  DONT use rocks    from the lake in your fire ring, they will explode, and send deadly    shrapnel and hot coals everywhere.   What’s all this about exploding rocks?

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        In light of the most recent rearing of the ugly head of anti-campfire zealots, I feel compeled to post what I know about minimizing campfire impact.  But first, an introduction and a caveat.         I don’t dispute the fact that fires do quite a bit of damage to the environment.  Allowing campfires in heavily-impacted areas is very often a mistake, due to the many problems associated with both the combustion process and the act of building the fire itself- such as trampling around the undergrowth and scarring (most often permanently) fire ring rocks.  I support fire bans in high-use areas for these reasons.  I would include nearly all well-known back-country areas stateside in my list of fire-ban areas, since they get alot of use.  Moreover, nearly any high-country worth backpacking is fragile enough to make a fire ban neccessary.         BUT, fire bans are NOT appropriate in all areas.  Zealots like those who posit that all fire-builders are selfish are being incredibly short-sited and self absorbed.  Not everyone limits travels to a) backpacking, b) heavy- use areas, c) the USA, and d) trips of short duration (read: less than one week).         A few posters have noted that they, like I, rely almost exclusively on fires for trips in Far northern Saskatchewan and Manitoba.  By far northern I mean north of the Churchill river- and my favorite area- the Wollaston Lk, Cochran River area.  This is heavily wooded (although 50 or so miles south of the tundra), heavily forest-fire burnt (every area has evidence of fire within about 30 years), and rarely traveled since the voyageurs used the rivers as fur trading routes.           These trips are over thirty days in length, making it totally impractical to carry fuel.  You couldn’t carry enough of it, for one. You wouldn’t want to risk a spill when there are weeks of paddling in between even native settlements.  And, you generally wouldn’t be able to afford the cost of the fuel.  Moreover, cooking for six people over a stove is futile for heavy-calorie meal prep.   Not to mention the fact that I never had to stray  more than twenty feet from the site to find bone-dry driftwood laying either on the beaches (in the north) or on the rocks (on the shield), in enormous quantities. Presented with the above, in addition to the impact of burning the fossil fuels and inevitable spills of fuel on VERY fragile Caribou moss, I opt for the fires.  Any arguments to the effect of the "more efficient burning" of stoves or "quicker boiling time" are just splitting hairs. Anyone who has been in a similar situation with similar numbers is welcome to disagree.  Theorists can continue to theorize…  ’nuff said.           The Impact of fires, given the above, needs to be minimized.  Any traveler who manages to GET to this area cares enough to want to preserve it.  [Ask me sometime about the two day all dirt road trip to my dropoff point on Wollaston.]  Part of the joy of this area is the feeling of solitude that comes from such a pristine wilderness- and anyone who is there is immediately faced with the enormous responsibility to preserve it.  Many of the natives and non-native fly-in fishing guides and non-native camps pollute their nests with "shore lunch’ fires using HUGE chunks of driftwood left half-burnt on shore,  toss fish innards all over the place, and generally behave with the abandon of 19th century humankind when they were faced with the seemingly endless ocean- and treated it like a bottomless wastecan.           Ok. So if you DO get up there- or you DO make a decision to use fires- what do you do to minimize the impact?  I’ll do it point by point: 1) Gather only fallen, dead wood.  Never break off branches (even from "dead" trees still standing).  Walk at least 100 yds away from the campsite before beginning to gather. 2). Know your woods.  Pine burns fast and hot- birch slow and cool.  Pine and hardwoods are better for starting fires, which can then be maintained with bigger, slower-burning woods like birch.  LOTS of wood is wasted by people trying to start fires with the wrong wood.  Moreover, the right wood on a proper set of coals will burn very efficiently, indeed.  And with little smoke. 3) Fire rings-                 A). Always used established fire rings where available.  If none are available:                 B). Sod turning technique:  Clear away duff.  Cut out a rectangle about 4-6 inches deep in the earth.  Build the fire in the hole.  Make sure (as ALWAYS) that the fire is OUT COMPLETELY, then replace the rectangle back in the hole.  This technique’s advantage is that it is VERY low-impact, but if you like to burn dishwater or food scraps, you run the risk of critters unearthing your cinders.  You can line the hole with rocks, but they will be scarred black and unsightly.  If you do use the rocks, you can either bury them or "lake" them when cold.                 C). Flat Rock Technique:  This was my favorite on the shield.  Find a flat rock, and build the fire on it.  It scars only that rock (or any others you use as wind shields, depending on conditions) which you can "lake."  Meaning, of course, that you toss it, when cold, into the lake, where mother nature will turn the scarred rock into dust in a few millenia. NOTE- I don’t think I have to say, but just in case….  DONT use rocks from the lake in your fire ring, they will explode, and send deadly shrapnel and hot coals everywhere.   4)  Size- Limit yourself to "cooking" fires- about the size of the bottom of your skillet.  And limit the size of your fuel to the diameter of a silver dollar.  These fires are plenty hot when well maintained- even in the June snows of Saskatchewan. 5) Try not to pollute other people’s environment- remember, a fire from across the lake is a reminder than you are not alone.  Some people like to feel alone.  So keep the fire small and as much out of site as is practical. 6) Consider using "fire sticks" or similar firestarters to cut down on kindling needs, especially on wet days. Hopefully this is useful information for the teeming masses.   ANY trip into the wilderness implies a gentle balance between impact and enjoyment.  To have any enjoyment by being someplace means that you have to, first, get there (by burning fossil fuels) and then, move around (trampling the underbrush or trail).  Not to mention the equipment most of us cart around.  If you want to get under a Patagonia Rep’s skin sometime, ask about the vats and vats of caustic slop that is left over after making out synchilla such pretty colors.  How about the boots? Either we kill off a bunch of cows, or we boil a bunch of dead dinosaurs and make a Texan rich.   One campfire isn’t going to do anywhere near as much environmental damage as the dye and industrial waste used to produce just ONE piece of polarfleece.  If we are serious enough to split hairs over campfires in the terms that we are using here ("all campfires are always bad and the people who make them are all selfish, we should all use stoves"), then I hope that we are serious enough to have educated ourselves as to the impact of the crap we cart around and the crap that we put on our pathetic, fragile, human bodies when out in the wild.  [BTW I mean ALL humans have fragile, pathetic bodies.  We don't fare well naked above the tropics or at altitude.]         In short- welcome to the real world folks- there is no such thing as zero impact.  This is not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There is reason to minimize impact, not to give up and merely enjoy other people’s video travelogues (using electricity and plastic, but I digress…).  Minimizing impact may sometimes mean choosing the lesser of two evils, and reasonable people may differ as to the best choice of those evils.  There are about 5 different ways to walk through a mountain meadow, any one of which will garner the ire of adherents of the other 4.         Educate yourself as to the choices, and make what, in your judgement, is the best choice for your situation.  When the choices are close, don’t make the call for somebody else.

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Question:

Has nay of the national magazines had any reports about whirling disease? about eating Great Lakes fish. "In-Fisherman" provided some in-depth coverage, and was rewarded with the loss of over $250K of advertising revenue. "Outdoor Life", knowing which side its bread was buttered on, published a blistering editorial calling the advisory 16 kinds of crap. No loss of advertising for these pillars of journalistic integrity

  This may be true in the case of Outdoor Life, but not in the case of Fly Fisherman. I have been in touch with Dave Engerbretson, who often contributes to this group, and he informs me that John Randolph and John Holt are not only aware of the whirling disease issue, but are preparing a story. Keep in mind that glossy magazines are usually layed out and printed 3 or so issues in advance, and that the Madison River story broke less than a month ago. Why the Colorado story hasn’t received more press is a mystery. But it soon will.   Tim Walker recently sent me a zeroxed/faxed copy of an article that appeared in the Angling Report, summarizing recent whirling disease developments in Colorado. The news is very bad. Taken at face value, it appears there has been *no* natural reproduction of Rainbows, for three seasons now, in parts of the Colorado, Gunnison, South Platte and Arkansas rivers. How do *you* define disaster? The only good news I have heard yet, is that Cutthroats and Brookies are somewhat resistant, at least by comparison with Rainbows. —

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Peter – I suspect that you will get several responses to your post, and certainly some that are more scientific than I can be, so I will just reply briefly.  If, for some reason, you don’t get a fuller reply, send me a post and I will send more information. First, the disease is a neurological disorder that affects the fish’s system and causes it to swim in circles (thusthe name).   the fis weaken and ultimately fal prey to predators or other disease.  the disease is of no danger to humans if the fish are eaten.  there is not cure and probably got ito the Madison River from illegal stocking.  It can be transmitted on fishing gear, so there is a real risk of it spreading to other rivers. It is a very bad situation, but fortunatley does not affect the brown trout. The rainbow are most susceptible. again, if you do not get a better scientific description, let me know.  I have some materials that I can use to compose a longer post.                                               Dallas, TX                                               Ennis, MT

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This is far from scientific, but as far as I understand whirling disease, it’s parasitic infestation (whether a protozoan or worm, or other loathsome critter, I’m not sure) which lodges in the nerve/spinal column of the fish.  The beasties keep eating their way through (right into the brain, I’ve heard) until the fish is neurological/mental invalid.  The effect is particularly pronounced in fry and parr, leading to the classic symtpoms of swimming in erratic circles or "whirling."  By the time things get to that point, the fish is defenseless.  I’m not sure about the propagation cycle of the parasite. I think that it can be spread by ingestion, so if an adult gobbles up a fry that is addled with the disease, the parasite can spread to the adult.  What I do not remember is how the parasite propagates once the host is dead, assuming something does not ingest it. I do recall that on avergage 10% of a population will not be affected by the disease, but they could be carriers. It can strike older fish as well, but it takes much longer.  One reason the disease is particularly insidious (sp?) is that we notice the adults for the most part.  By the time an adult in the population is diagonosed with the condition, you’ve got one hell of a problem because odds are the disease has spread through the population.  The truly horrific part of it is that it tends to wipe out whole year classes, with a disproportionate effect on the fry and par.  So, if you you start seeing adults with the condition, the younger year classes, and therefore future populations, may be in very serious trouble. The spread of the disease is increases with higher water temperatures because the beasties become more active.  Last I heard, once there is an infestation, there is very little that can be done other than killing off the host population.  I don’t know if that is true. Illegally stocked fish are likely a principal source, but I don’t know how the parasite gets into the hatchery in the first instance. Rainbows are very susceptible.  Browns are not.  The disease is European and so are browns, who have developed a restisance.  So, expect to see a much higher percentage of browns caught on the Madison. That’s what I’ve heard, for what it’s worth.  If there’s a fisheries biologist out there, please set this straight if it’s wrong.  I hope I’m wrong about some of the nastier aspects, because it sounds like rather like a fish version of bubonic plague. John C. Crow

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I lived for 5 years in Bozeman in the 1980’s and loved fishing the Madison when I could.  I have just heard about this "whirling disease" phenomenon.  Can someone explain in a bit of scientific detail what it is?

For more than you probably want to know, search the Flyfishing archive at www.adp.unc.edu/cgi-bin/wais-flyfish-q using "whirling" as a key word. Phil Holt

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I’m not sure what this article stated, but I received a release from the New York DEC a couple of months ago indicating that Whirling disease had contaminated a hatchery in NY State. I don’t think many fish with Whirling disease were stocked, but it wiped out an entire hatchery. Forgive my ‘net ignorance; this information is certainly timely and quite important, so I’m willing to risk a little self-dignity to keep everyone informed. See you on the rivers! Dennis Suler, Jr Hackettstown, NJ Forbes Newspapers

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Whirlings disease is caused by a protozoan, that eats the cartilage around the equilibrium center in the fish.  It is deadly to fry and small fish, as stated before, but seems to have no effect on older fish.  If an older fish had it when it was young, you will often times find a sunken cranium, or deformed back.  Young fish that are infected often times also have a black tail.  Their is NO cure for it and the only way to get rid of it is to kill all the fish, sterilize (with some really potent chemicals) and start over, not a good thing for a stream, but it is required when a hatchery gets it.  Brown trout are susseptible to it, but they seem to have a better genetic defense of it, so it doean’t show up much in them. I hope this helps, I am not a fish biologist, but studiing to become one, I recently became interested in whirlings disease due to the outbreak of it in CO. Feel free to reply to me via email. Kevin — | ALL opinions |    OF COURSE I DID IT IN COLD BLOOD…..     | are mine,    |            I’M A POIKILOTHERM | Nobody else  |                                Kevin Case

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I lived for 5 years in Bozeman in the 1980’s and loved fishing the Madison when I could.  I have just heard about this "whirling disease" phenomenon.  Can someone explain in a bit of scientific detail what it is?

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The only good news I have heard yet, is that Cutthroats and Brookies are somewhat resistant, at least by comparison with Rainbows. —

At the fly fishing show in New Jersey, Gary LaFontaine listed a hierarchy of the suseptability to all trout, I cannot remember it exactly but I do remember that Rainbow was number one, and lake trout were at the bottom, I believe unaffected totally.                                         Brian

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Could somebody please give me a short summary, what whirling disease is and how it affects fish and people eating them? (Btw, I am on good terms with biology, so it can be a rather scienific explanation) Thanx, or "Vielen Dank", as we Austrians put it,                                                 Peter

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Tom Fry writes that it is not likely that the national magazines will publish  anything on the whirling disease because of the risk of loss of advertising. Tom = I think that you are wrong on this because the problem has already gotten a lot of national press.  But your scepticism is not without foundation. I suggest that if we do not see any articles in the next couple of editions of FF and Fly Rod & Reel, for example, we ought to beseige them with letters demanding attention to the problem.                                               Dallas, TX                                               Ennis, MT

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Has nay of the national magazines had any reports about whirling disease?

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re: WHIRLING DISEASE… Excellent summary in compuserve fishing library. I could fax it too you if you like…

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Has nay of the national magazines had any reports about whirling disease?

about eating Great Lakes fish. "In-Fisherman" provided some in-depth coverage, and was rewarded with the loss of over $250K of advertising revenue. "Outdoor Life", knowing which side its bread was buttered on, published a blistering editorial calling the advisory 16 kinds of crap. No loss of advertising for these pillars of journalistic integrity — 3798 Woodland Drive     (604) 368-9315 Trail, BC

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Question:

This subject is getting a lot of press with the identification of the disease in the Madison, so there is (finally) some information out there. The disease has been in Colorado for some time now and is getting worse. The culprit is almost certainly illegal stocking or (apparently in the case of Colorado) knowingly stocking with diseased fish.  There is evidence that the disease can be spread to other rivers via boots and other fishing equipment, but (at least according to Dick Vincent at the Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks Department) it is not spread by wildfowl. Brook trout and salmon are also affected. I suspect now that a river as important as the Madison has been affected, we will see a lot more about this and other threatening diseases.

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I would be interested in seeing the Washington Post article and the article mentioned in December from the Bozeman Gazette.  The posts I have been reading here about Whirling disease have really been upsetting.  My fishing buddies and I are trying to figure out what the best course of action for us would be.  Certainly no good plans have come from the "experts" as of yet (this would seem to be especially true in Colorado). Why hasn’t there been much yet in the fly fishing ‘literature’?  I haven’t read a thing in FR&R or Flyfisherman.  It would seem that research into why Browns and other unaffected species are immune would be the way to get this disease out of fish populations.  Does anyone involved in Fisheries Management or Biology at Montana State or at CU know anything about any research into the molecular biology/pathogenesis of this disease?  Please post!

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If this thing is protozoan and can potentially be spread by our wading boots, does anyone have any suggestions or know what we should be doing with our waders after fishing any of the potentially affected waters?  How long can the protozoa live out of water?  I often fish the Madison for a day or two, then go to the spring creeks in the Paradise Valley.  I would hate to be contributing to the spread of this disease into those waters, or any other for that matter!

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:   What about cutthroats? From what I have heard–in both Montana : and Colorado (and perhaps the Truckee too)–the brown trout are OK! : Does anybody know anything about Whirling disease and cutthroats? The Washington Post article mentioned that cutts are susceptible to the disease. Rick — T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.  

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as u have pointed out whirling disease has made its way inot the wild population and indeed this is bad news.  as i have had it described to me this disease effects the delicate bone structure in juvinelle fish so when frightened/starteled they swim in small fast concentric circles instead of going for cover.  in addition, i have also heard that it is usually the result of the close confines of hatcherys that spread it, as u may also have heard the state of colorado fish & game department is releasing hatchery fish with this disease into some of their blue ribbon water, for what reason god alone knows and god aint speakin on this subject.  anyway i hope that the local TU chapters get involed in this an can help Mr. Vincent out.  from all reports he is a pretty good guy and knows a thing or two about how to maintain a wild trout population.  any news on this unhappy event is most welcome

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disease has been discovered in the wild rainbow populations of Montana’s upper Madison. None of us here knows anything more than that just yet. But it continues to look bad. The outfitters haven’t really caught on, because the spring/winter fishing is good at this very moment. But whirling disease, apparently, only effects the tiddlers. In a few more seasons, once the current crop of bigger rainbows has died off from old age, there may be no more little fish to replace them. I wish I knew more about what’s going on. I’ve heard that Whirling disease made its way into wild rainbow populations in Colorado some time ago. Who down there in Colorado knows something about this? Which Colorado river systems are effected? How long has this been going on, etc?  Is the Colorado problem stable in any way, or is it getting worse? —

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: some time ago. Who down there in Colorado knows something about this? : Which Colorado river systems are effected? How long has this been RE: Whirling Disease I met with some guides here in the shop over Christmas and this was the issue at hand. It looks very grim and much worse then originally speculated.  The guides are accusing the Colorado DOW of a MAJOR cover up.  They have SCREWED up big time and since fishing is such a huge economical thing…noone will come straight.  The local guides are going to try to take matters into their own hands and we are in the process of recommending a wierd but hopefully effective idea to the DOW for the 96-98 regs…the idea is to close off feeder streams to all fishing during the rainbow spawn. The idea is to try to get some of these genetically farked up fish to produce (naturally) fish that are genetically immune to the disease.  It is a long shot, but better then no shot.   Apparently noone is talking but the rumour is that all year classes are missing in some of the major drainages (i.e. NO/0/nada/zip baby fishes) and that the spore (?) is present throughtout the state and that it originated in a hatchery in Utah. All colorado fishermen should pressure anybody and everybody they know for more information ans to support this closed rainbow spawning fishing season in the feeders… Tim Walker

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RE: Whirling Disease Apparently noone is talking but the rumour is that all year classes are missing in some of the major drainages (i.e. NO/0/nada/zip baby fishes) and that the spore (?) is present throughtout the state and that it originated in a hatchery in Utah. Tim Walker

  What about cutthroats? From what I have heard–in both Montana and Colorado (and perhaps the Truckee too)–the brown trout are OK! Does anybody know anything about Whirling disease and cutthroats? —

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I understand that there was an article in the Washington Post today (1/4) on the whirling disease in the Madison.  I have not seen it, but would like to get a copy if anyone has one.

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:   What about cutthroats? From what I have heard–in both Montana : and Colorado (and perhaps the Truckee too)–the brown trout are OK! : Does anybody know anything about Whirling disease and cutthroats? My understanding is that the cutts aren’t affected, allthough I haven’t conducted too many fry surveys and the misinformation in general does scare me.   Damned hatcheries indeed.  If only the folkes could to see fit to spend their tax monies on stream improvements and accept a greatly reduced general catch limit while the wild stocks rebound… Population estimates for colorado are around 5 million by the year 2000.  The state is just too fragile for this many people.  No, I don’t begrudge folkes for wanting to live here. Nor do I have any answers.   It frightens me to the core. Tim Walker

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: Hey, I may be stupid, but can anyone explain what Whirling disease is? It is a disease that affects the spine of rainbow trout fry that first showed up in the state hatcheries.  Now the dept of wildlife has introduced it into the waters and it is affecting the wild stock.   It is very, very serious and some think we are on the brink of a disaster of major proportions.  I really hope that some biologist in the know (Bob Golder…what’re you up to today) would really fill in the blanks. Tim Walker

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Hey, I may be stupid, but can anyone explain what Whirling disease is? Paul

Whirling disease is caused by a protozoan parasite that invades the cartilage of the skull, gill arches and spine.  It affects only trout and salmon.  Rainbow trout are the most seriously affected, browns (which probably coevolved with the parasite in Europe) are somewhat, but not totally resistant. The parasite goes through a complex life cycle which involves spores which may persist in the bottom sediments for many years, hence it is here to stay in the Madison. It may make infected fish swim in a circle  (whirling) or die, but more frequently cause deformities or make the fish more susceptible to predation or environmental episodes. It was discovered in Colorado in the late ’80s, Utah in ‘91 and now in Montana. Utah initiated a strong program to try to eradicate it when it was first discovered.  Later findings showed it had been spread, perhaps intentionally, to other parts of the state.  Current efforts are directed to try to protect wild native cutthroat from the disease.  Montana has a good program and  has been trying to prevent it from coming into the state.

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Hey, I may be stupid, but can anyone explain what Whirling disease is? Paul

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Whirling disease…..not good.  Up to 90% of the rainbows have died.  I got this from a guy at Lakestream Fly Shop in Whitefish last week.  It doesn’t seem to be affecting the brown trout population that badly.  Yet…another distrubing note.  They are not sure how the disease is spreading.  I am going to ask a fishery pathologist i know, on what he knows what is going on.  I will post the info that evening.  I will try to do it on Monday. If anyone around here knows what is going on…he will.  Yet the info coming my way on the impact of the disease is NOT GOOD!.  Just pray I guess. Peter

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Last night’s Bozeman Daily Chronicle ran the headline "Madison River Rainbows Diseased," or something like that. The story identified Whirling disease as the culprit, and quoted Montana Fish and Game Biologist Dick Vincent, who said upper Madison rainbow populations had plummeted from 3300 to 300 fish/mile in a single season. Brown trout, so far, seem unafected.    Whirling disease has traditionally been associated with hatchery fish in the past. How this disease has made its way into a wild population remains a mystery. But Dick Vincent did mention scattered reports of hatchery rainbows mysteriously appearing in the upper Madison in late 1980’s. What this means is anyone’s guess. Montana hasn’t stocked rainbows in the Madison for decades.    What happens next? There are rumors. But nothing definite yet. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a complete fishing closure on the upper Madison for a few years. It’s not clear that a slimy Elk Hair Caddis–heavily used Monday evening on the Madison–couldn’t transmit Whirling disease to Big Hole or Yellowstone rainbows on Tuesday morning. It would be a real tragedy if the lower Yellowstone’s (now) recovering native Cutthroat populations were to become effected (decimated?) too. This could be really bad news. —

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Last night’s Bozeman Daily Chronicle ran the headline "Madison River Rainbows Diseased," or something like that. The story identified Whirling disease as the culprit, and quoted Montana Fish and Game Biologist Dick Vincent, who said upper Madison rainbow populations had plummeted from 3300 to 300 fish/mile in a single season. Brown trout, so far, seem unafected. <snip   What happens next? There are rumors. But nothing definite yet. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a complete fishing closure on the upper Madison for a few years. It’s not clear that a slimy Elk <snip again

There are a lot of rumors bouncing around Bozeman today. The main one that I have heard is that FW&P will attempt a total rainbow kill on the Upper Madison, although how they would do this without taking out the browns is anyone’s guess.  Suggestions that I have heard include changing the regs to require people fishing to kill all rainbows and release all browns.  I can’t believe that this would get all of the rainbows – we just don’t fish that well. Another problem will be what to do if they can take out the rainbows completely.  Options would presumably include (a) leaving this stretch of river as a trophy wild brown river, (b) restocking the rainbows from hatchery fish, which would really degrade the fishery for several years, and (c) relocating wild rainbows from other parts of the river. On the less bad news side, it is my understanding that this is limited to the river between Quake lake and Ennis dam.  I never thought that I would be grateful for that stupid dam.  I.e., unless they lose it there is no immediate danger of this getting into the lower Madison and hence into the Missouri, Gallatin, etc.  At the other end, the Madison in Yellowstone National Park, and hence the Gibbon and Firehole, are not currently in danger. Unfortunately I haven’t heard that this will kill off the whitefish. The stretch of river affected by this disease is often claimed to be the best piece of wild trout water in the continental US, so this is already a disaster, and if the disease does get into the browns as well it will probably be 10-20 years before they can fully restore the fishery.  Not a good Christmas present for the people who read this group. Denbigh http://www.cs.montana.edu/~starkey http://www.cs.montana.edu/~starkey/fishing.html 406-994-4780 (work), 406-586-7614 (home)

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Question:

Good flies?   Try something like a black girdle bug with yellow rubber legs.

I’ve also had good luck with a long shank hook (8-4), white marabou tail ( long) body of gold tinsle chenille, palmer wrapped with dark hackle and very small lead eyes or lead wraps forward… looks like the little minnows that smallies love…. Good Luck / /—– /     Bob Bowes |/         |     Defense Systems Divison |   ^   ^   |     Lockheed Sanders Inc |     &     |     Merrimack NH 03045     _/   /      (603)-885-6779     ___ /

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| I’ll be in West Virginia  from 6/7 through 6/13 and | I’ll have three days an a couple of evenings free to | chase smallmouths.   I’m staying at Pipestem State | Park on the New River. | | I’ve never tried smallmouths on moving water | before, so any advice will be appreciated.  I’ll be | using a fly rod but want advice from all anglers.   | I find I can adapt other techniques to fly fishing | quite nicely.  I’ve had great luck with Bay stripers, | landlocked stripers, black bass, ocean pearch, rock | fish, etc. Chip, I have fished the upper Potomac quite a bit for smallmouth and we’re basically talking about the same conditions here. The most efficient technique I have found for spring and fall is a two-inch floating Rapala on ultralight spinning tackle. Spinners work well, too, but they get hung up alot in shallow water, which is where the active fish are. The Rapala dives when retrieved and lets you effectively fish topwater and down to a couple of feet. While I’m not a big fan of spin fishing, I usually fish from a canoe where fly casting is a little awkward. To fly fish I usually beach the canoe and wade. I also use an ultralight casting outfit, though the Rapala is a little too light for it. Works fine with a junior size sluggo (no weight added) and a Zara Spook. For fly fishing in the evening, try deer hair bass bugs. I use patterns tied on #4 hooks and a 6-weight line/rod combination. You could go heavier, but since river smallmouth in this area tend to be on the small side, the light tackle adds to the fun. If there’s alot of glare on the water and/or the fish aren’t coming to the surface, I use a muddler minnow with a little lead tied into it. If you want to take the quality over quantity approach and stalk the larger fish, bring an 8-weight rod and proportionately larger flies. If you’ve never caught smallmouth in moving water, you’re in for a treat, especially with light tackle. You’ll find alot of fish going airborne once they’re hooked. Good luck. —

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Park on the New River. I’ve never tried smallmouths on moving water before, so any advice will be appreciated.  I’ll be using a fly rod but want advice from all anglers.

Depressions, ledges, side pools – all are good holding and cruising zones.   With flies, I often made long casts and retrieved in any old way, as long as they followed.   Then when they all came running in close, I’d work the fly more carefully, often seeing them dare each other to take the fly, and eventually setting the hook when the big one bit down. Good flies?   Try something like a black girdle bug with yellow rubber legs. Thomas Gilg

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I’ll be in West Virginia  from 6/7 through 6/13 and I’ll have three days an a couple of evenings free to chase smallmouths.   I’m staying at Pipestem State Park on the New River. I’ve never tried smallmouths on moving water before, so any advice will be appreciated.  I’ll be using a fly rod but want advice from all anglers.   I find I can adapt other techniques to fly fishing quite nicely.  I’ve had great luck with Bay stripers, landlocked stripers, black bass, ocean pearch, rock fish, etc.

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