Question:

Lately, the outside of my left elbow is sore to the core. (I’m right handed)  I was told by some golfers that I may have ‘tennis elbow’.  Has anyone experienced this and what did you do for it?  I’m sure I’ll have to see the Doc, if it doesn’t go away.  Will it go away?? Thanks in advance!

Response:

Lately, the outside of my left elbow is sore to the core. (I’m right handed)  I was told by some golfers that I may have ‘tennis elbow’.  Has anyone experienced this and what did you do for it?  I’m sure I’ll have to see the Doc, if it doesn’t go away.  Will it go away??

Do a web search on "lateral epicondylitis".  It’s not fun, that’s for sure.

Response:

Lately, the outside of my left elbow is sore to the core. (I’m right handed)  I was told by some golfers that I may have ‘tennis elbow’.  Has anyone experienced this and what did you do for it?  I’m sure I’ll have to see the Doc, if it doesn’t go away.  Will it go away??

A couple of years ago I got tennis elbow in my right (racquet) arm by digging up trees in my yard.  I stupidly didn’t take much time off of tennis, and also didn’t get any treatment.  It took a long time to go away, but I eventually recovered completely.  I think I helped the healing by careful weightlifting that didn’t aggravate it.  One guy I used to play tennis with got it pretty bad.  He’s had physical therapy and cortisone shots, and is still trying to recover. I’ve had pain in my left arm for the last couple of months that I can only attribute to golf.  It sounds like what you have.  During the summer I was hitting a lot of balls each week, and also doing some cross-training to maintain strength and flexibility and ward off injury.  I may have overdone the practice regimen a bit.  I have one more tournament to play on 10/20, then I’m planning on rest and rehab over the winter to get rid of the pain.   – cja

Response:

Lately, the outside of my left elbow is sore to the core. (I’m right handed)  I was told by some golfers that I may have ‘tennis elbow’.  Has anyone experienced this and what did you do for it?  I’m sure I’ll have to see the Doc, if it doesn’t go away.  Will it go away?? Do a web search on "lateral epicondylitis".  It’s not fun, that’s for sure.

And if that happens to be your problem, ask your pharmacist for the type of "armband" (some look like a U-shaped clamp) that redirects vibration away from your elbow. It won’t cure you (only rest will do that) but at least will alleviate further pain.

Response:

I am currently suffering from a (left) tennis elbow as a result of a too strong grip while playing in the rain. I am getting physiotherapy but have been told that it may take anywhere between 3 months and 2 years to heal. Rest seems to do the trick. Certainly no more golf for the foreseeable future… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lately, the outside of my left elbow is sore to the core. (I’m right handed)  I was told by some golfers that I may have ‘tennis elbow’.  Has anyone experienced this and what did you do for it?  I’m sure I’ll have to see the Doc, if it doesn’t go away.  Will it go away?? Thanks in advance!

Response:

This is bad news.  I’ve worked through this in both elbows. Definitely take measures now, or it can get a lot worse.  The things I have done, that are finally getting me fixed, after a year, are: 1) Ice the elbow thoroughly after golf or other activities which make it sore. 2) Stretch the tendons before.  There are web sites out there which can give you the stretches. 3) Weight training of the forearm.  I use 12 lb dumbells now, had to start with 2 lb. You want to lay your arm across your knee, palm down, and flex the hand backwards towards your elbow.  Do 15 reps with what ever weight you can.  Then turn the hand over, palm up, and curl your wrist with the same weight.  Do three or four times a week. 4) I had to give up golf and fly fishing for two months.  I gave it up for three weeks and then went back, and really made things worse. 5) Ibuprofen 6) Get a tennis elbow support strap.  Your local drug store should have one. Wear this while golfing or when doing other things that subject the elbow to impact.  You wear it just below the elbow, on the fat part of your forearm. It distributes stress to the muscle lower in your arm. Hope that helps.  Don’t ignore this, or it can become chronic. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lately, the outside of my left elbow is sore to the core. (I’m right handed)  I was told by some golfers that I may have ‘tennis elbow’.  Has anyone experienced this and what did you do for it?  I’m sure I’ll have to see the Doc, if it doesn’t go away.  Will it go away?? Thanks in advance!

Response:

In addition to the excellent list of options below, I would taking Glucoseamaine Sulphate, which cured a very bad case of Tennis Elbow I had several years ago. would seem to take 60 days for benefits to appear. Cortisone shots help, but are not recommended until other treatments fail. — Bill Cochrane 416-284-8462

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is bad news.  I’ve worked through this in both elbows. Definitely take measures now, or it can get a lot worse.  The things I have done, that are finally getting me fixed, after a year, are: 1) Ice the elbow thoroughly after golf or other activities which make it sore. 2) Stretch the tendons before.  There are web sites out there which can give you the stretches. 3) Weight training of the forearm.  I use 12 lb dumbells now, had to start with 2 lb. You want to lay your arm across your knee, palm down, and flex the hand backwards towards your elbow.  Do 15 reps with what ever weight you can.  Then turn the hand over, palm up, and curl your wrist with the same weight.  Do three or four times a week. 4) I had to give up golf and fly fishing for two months.  I gave it up for three weeks and then went back, and really made things worse. 5) Ibuprofen 6) Get a tennis elbow support strap.  Your local drug store should have one. Wear this while golfing or when doing other things that subject the elbow to impact.  You wear it just below the elbow, on the fat part of your forearm. It distributes stress to the muscle lower in your arm. Hope that helps.  Don’t ignore this, or it can become chronic. Lately, the outside of my left elbow is sore to the core. (I’m right handed)  I was told by some golfers that I may have ‘tennis elbow’.  Has anyone experienced this and what did you do for it?  I’m sure I’ll have to see the Doc, if it doesn’t go away.  Will it go away?? Thanks in advance!

Response:

Question:

Hi folks, Just wondered if someone can comment on the choice of an outboard engine vs. an I/O on a 23-25′ boat, to be used in the coastal waters of west central Florida.  Combination of use will be both bay & off-shore fishing, off-shore diving, and short-medium range cruising with at least two couples. I’m a long-time fan of Mercruiser I/Os, having owned several and had very little trouble with them.  A few questions about outboards: 1) I’ve heard that outboard technology has come a long way, and the newer engines are quieter and more fuel effecient, correct? 2) Are the outboards more expensive to maintain? 3) Is the net-net performance about the same given the same hosepower on an outboard and I/O? 4 Is there a clear advantage with any particular brand of outboard nowadays? 5) Should we look for any specific year models, i.e. 1997 or newer for example? All thoughts appreciated.  Thanks. Patrick

Response:

Just wondered if someone can comment on the choice of an outboard engine vs. an I/O on a 23-25′ boat, to be used in the coastal waters of west central Florida. A few questions about outboards: 1) I’ve heard that outboard technology has come a long way, and the newer engines are quieter and more fuel effecient, correct?

That is correct, especially with the 4 stroke motors. 2) Are the outboards more expensive to maintain?

Probably even or cheaper. 3) Is the net-net performance about the same given the same hosepower on an outboard and I/O?

Net is higher since you have a higher power to weight ratio. 4 Is there a clear advantage with any particular brand of outboard nowadays?

I don’t see any clear advantages, all the manufacturers have their thing that only they do.  Personnally my best experiences for reliability have been with Yamaha and performance wih Mercury, thou Honda has some interesting cam technology and Suzuki has the best Warrantee.  Never been an OMC fan myself but that doesn’t really mean much. 5) Should we look for any specific year models, i.e. 1997 or newer for example?

Can’t help you there, but I’m sure there will be someone to tell you what not to buy. http://hometown.aol.com/hlaviation/

Response:

Hi Patrick, With a boat that size I guess that the outboard choices would be the new Yamaha and Honda 200-225hp 4 strokes? In a Mercruiser they use mostly GM V8s now for 200hp+? I know that fisherman like the outboards because there is more room in the rear of the boat for fishing? The ultimate power is a diesel in a boat that size, but it is $$$$. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi folks, Just wondered if someone can comment on the choice of an outboard engine vs. an I/O on a 23-25′ boat, to be used in the coastal waters of west central Florida.  Combination of use will be both bay & off-shore fishing, off-shore diving, and short-medium range cruising with at least two couples. I’m a long-time fan of Mercruiser I/Os, having owned several and had very little trouble with them.  A few questions about outboards: 1) I’ve heard that outboard technology has come a long way, and the newer engines are quieter and more fuel effecient, correct? 2) Are the outboards more expensive to maintain? 3) Is the net-net performance about the same given the same hosepower on an outboard and I/O? 4 Is there a clear advantage with any particular brand of outboard nowadays? 5) Should we look for any specific year models, i.e. 1997 or newer for example? All thoughts appreciated.  Thanks. Patrick

Response:

Question:

Putting all that together, I gather that I haven’t broken a rod while casting because I use a roll cast or retrieve enough of a wet line to avoid that overload on the lift, and I’m never over bending the rod while casting.  The fatal errors come in the heat of battle. The more I think about it, I see what you mean about casting being the heaviest force on the rod. Thanks for your help, Chas

Response:

The force generated by "hauling" is not "applied directly" to the line. It’s applied though the loaded, and increasingly loaded, rod.

If it’s done right the rod is already fully loaded and you are just accelerating the line and, more importantly, the tip of the line. — Charlie…

Response:

The force generated by "hauling" is not "applied directly" to the line. It’s applied though the loaded, and increasingly loaded, rod. If it’s done right the rod is already fully loaded and you are just accelerating the line and, more importantly, the tip of the line. — Charlie…

Charlie, Your analysis of hauling to increase line speed and thus increasing casting distance is correct.  If it was a matter of loading the rod as rw says the caster would only have to apply more power to accomplish this. Ernie

Response:

rw, If the haul is done correctly the rod is fully loaded and any additional speed must be imparted to the line by foreword movement of your arm and by pulling "hauling" the line through the guides. Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have to doubt that additional rod loading is minimal, Mike. The only way the caster can increase the speed of the line is by accelerating it. The only way he can accelerate it is by exerting a force on the line at the rod tip. (F=ma). An equal and opposite force is exerted on the rod at the tip, which results in loading the rod.

Response:

Charlie, Your analysis of hauling to increase line speed and thus increasing casting distance is correct.  If it was a matter of loading the rod as rw says the caster would only have to apply more power to accomplish this. Ernie

I’m not saying that the *point* of hauling is to load the rod. I’m saying only that one *effect* of hauling is additional loading of the rod. It has to have that effect — there’s no way around it. Hauling accelerates the line, which generates a force on the rod tip. (F=ma) Consider three cases: 1. After loading the rod on the forward cast (with no hauling), you accidently lose your grip on the line with your noncasting hand. The acceleration of the line vanishes, the force on the rod tip vanishes, the rod straightens without appreciably affecting the line, and the line falls on the water in a bloody mess. 2. You make a normal forward cast without hauling, just holding the line tight. A force is applied to the line by the rod tip, causing acceleration of the line. An equal and opposite force is applied to the rod top, causing loading of the rod. 3. You make a forward cast while hauling. The action of the noncasting hand, pulling on the line, causes an *additional* acceleration of the line. This additional acceleration causes an *additional* force on the rod tip, resulting in additional loading of the rod. If you ignore things like friction, you could replace the effect (on the rod) of hauling by a transient additional stress in the line, and the rod would have no way of "knowing" the difference. It would simply load more. (The line would behave very differently, though.) These three cases are really just points in a continuum. Whether you consider this additional rod loading to be significant is your business, but it’s nonetheless real. This is just elementary physics. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Whether you consider this additional rod loading to be significant is your business, but it’s nonetheless real. This is just elementary physics.

It also ignores the fact that the line is not attached to the tip of the rod and that the rod is very nearly, if not fully, loaded. There may be some additional loading, but what makes the haul work is the additional acceleration applied directly to the line. This is just elementary geometry<g. — Charlie…

Response:

http://www.mikeconnor.de You didn’t comment on my second reason.  Does this make sense to you?      A second reason that the loading is not the key is that you could achieve the same additional loading if you just applied a bit more casting force.  We know that a man of modest strength and a good haul can outcast a muscle man who doesn’t haul. Thanks Chas

This is also correct.    The amount of linespeed any particular rod may generate in a flyline by direct action is limited by various things, one of which is the strength and speed of the caster. ( assuming once again perfect technique). If you haul, you do not increase the loading, as you do not use direct rod action, but your line hand, and you do not require any more strength and speed to obtain similar results to someone who does not haul. However, a powerful person with good technique will always cast better ( assuming distance casting here of course), than a weaker person, simply because he has more power per se. TL MC

Response:

– "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If it were so that hauling dramatically increased rod loading, then hauling on an already optimally loaded rod would cause it to fold up. I’ve been mean to a few rods at times, putting a #10 line in a #8 rod and casting Pike flies for instance, but I’ve never managed to break one casting.  Is this because most of my fishing has been with Graphite or Glass? I have to dig back into some old Physics books to get the details, but I remember stress and strain curves for various materials showing a linear relationship until a limit was released, and then additional stress produced excessive strain until the material failed.  Certainly with an old shoe or a fish on the line and a stout leader it’s easy enough to pass the elastic limit, but does that happen in casting as well? Thanks Chas

If you ask most people at what point a rod is stressed the most, then many of them will tell you that it is in playing a fish.  This is not the case. The basic maximum stress condition for a rod, when used correctly, is when casting. Most modern rods can stand a great deal more stress in this respect than is generally realised.  What they can not stand is shock loading under stress. If you jerk a rod when it is already loaded with a "dead weight", either played out fish, old shoe etc etc then it is highly likely to break. Solid glass fibre rods were probably the most robust rods to date.  Carbon fibre suffers from one or two disadvantages here. Even a slight nick in the surface of a blank can cause sudden massive failure, sometimes the blank will simply shatter without warning. More rods are broken by various extraneous factors than by casting.  The failure might indeed occur when casting, but is usually the result of some other fault. Car doors, falling down on the rod, excessive heat, leaning a rod on a stone and nicking it, ramming the tip into a tree, etc etc. Constantly overloading a rod by casting full lines etc, which are way over the rated weight will usually cause a blank failure as well of course. Most rods broken while actually fishing, do so for a number of reasons, the main one directly fishing related, is getting snagged, putting a good bend in the rod, and then jerking it.  This will quite easily snap a carbon fibre blank, or shatter it . The sudden extreme shock loading under stress is more than the rod can handle. The second most common reason is trying to lift a long line, especially a sunken one, without first roll-casting the line to the surface. Attempting to do this will break most rods. The sudden massive loading is once again more than they can stand. The third most common reason is attempting to land a fish by holding the rod almost vertically, and allowing it to bend over ninety degrees from the vertical. The fish plunges, and the rod simply snaps at the tip. No major exertions are required here by the way, doing the same thing while threading a line through the rings  will also snap a rod tip quite easily. What often happens here, is that the rod is bent, and then the blank "rolls" suddenly changing the stress patterns in the blank walls, and causing it to break. Occasionally rods are broken when fighting very large fish, but this is again an error on the part of the angler. It should normally be impossible for a fish to break a rod, given sufficient angling skill, and correct tackle.. Holding a rod in the fingers and bending it, is also very dangerous. Especially with fine tips. Assuming a rod in good condition, no nicks etc. And also assuming correctly matched line, and reasonable casting, and correct use, then the likelihood of breaking a rod is actually very low indeed. TL MC

Response:

"Mike Connor" wrote This is not a matter of taking sides I hope. Otherwise I will simply retire from the discussion. This is a technical discussion and nothing more.

Of course, my sloppy wording betrayed me. Apart from that, you are perfectly correct. Although the rod loading generated by hauling is inconsequential, irrespective of the current loading state of the rod.  When the rod is already optimally loaded, and as you say at its stiffest, the added loading generated by hauling is so small as to be insignificant. This is just as well, as if hauling did in fact appreciably increase rod loading, then an already optimally loaded rod would simply fold up under the added strain.

You didn’t comment on my second reason.  Does this make sense to you?      A second reason that the loading is not the key is that you could achieve the same additional loading if you just applied a bit more casting force.  We know that a man of modest strength and a good haul can outcast a muscle man who doesn’t haul.

Thanks Chas

Response:

If it were so that hauling dramatically increased rod loading, then hauling on an already optimally loaded rod would cause it to fold up.

I’ve been mean to a few rods at times, putting a #10 line in a #8 rod and casting Pike flies for instance, but I’ve never managed to break one casting.  Is this because most of my fishing has been with Graphite or Glass? I have to dig back into some old Physics books to get the details, but I remember stress and strain curves for various materials showing a linear relationship until a limit was released, and then additional stress produced excessive strain until the material failed.  Certainly with an old shoe or a fish on the line and a stout leader it’s easy enough to pass the elastic limit, but does that happen in casting as well? Thanks Chas

Response:

When you haul you’re loading the rod by making it work harder against the inertia of the line. I don’t really think "shortening the line" is a good way to look at it. A haul takes in maybe two or three feet of line, and you have maybe 30 feet or more out. I agree with what you’re saying, but I can "cast" nearly thirty feet by using only my right arm as the rod (with fingers in O shape to act as the tiptop) and a lefthand haul. So there’s more to it than just the rod tip.

Your finger is playing the role of the rod tip in that case. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 6:33 AM This would be correct if the line was fixed at the rod tip. When hauling it is not. It moves more or less freely through the guides. The force applied is applied directly to the line, independent of the rod loading.  The "equal and opposite reaction" in this case, is immediate line acceleration due to a direct pull, and is independent of the rod. Some of this force( a relatively small amount actually ) does indeed go towards the total rod loading, but compared to the force which is transferred to the line, this may be more or less ignored. I’m afraid you’re missing the point, Mike. It’s really irrelevant whether the line is fixed or free to move through the guides. There is a force exerted on the line, by the rod tip, that accelerates the line. There is a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the rod tip. That force has the effect of bending the rod. The greater the force, the more the line is accelerated, and the more the rod is bent (i.e., loaded). None of this force can be "ignored". The force generated by "hauling" is not "applied directly" to the line. It’s applied though the loaded, and increasingly loaded, rod. The acceleration is induced by a direct pull on the line, and is only possible because the line is indeed able to move independent of the rod tip. The point is, that when you haul, the line moves, and the rod does not, or only slightly. Thread your rod up with a line. Lay the line out and point the rod straight down the line.  Grasp the line at the butt, and pull sharply. The rod has not been loaded in any way, but the line will spring towards you. The direct pull moves the mass directly. Do the same thing holding the rod at an angle to the line, The same thing occurs, with a relatively small proportion of the applied force bending the rod tip slightly, if at all. Progressively increase the angle until the rod is at right angles to the line. At this point the maximum possible rod loading, under these circumstances, will occur when you pull on the line, nevertheless, the majority of the energy involved still goes towards moving the line, the tip will barely move. It is quite immaterial how hard, how long, or how fast you pull. The energy is transferred directly to the line. The rod is barely affected. The angle of the rod changes the vector, and the rod loads a little, due to friction mainly, but the majority of the energy involved goes into moving the line. If it were so that hauling dramatically increased rod loading, then hauling on an already optimally loaded rod would cause it to fold up. This is not the case. The result of hauling is dramatically increased linespeed, because of the direct application of force to the line.  You dont have to believe me, just try it. This is also incidentally why striking a fish with a pull on the line is better than doing it with the rod. The force applied is transferred more or less directly, with very little loss, to the hook point. The rod does not move much,  and  is not loaded appreciably. Only the line moves. If you strike with the rod, you must first load it, before you can apply any force at all, and because of the mechanical disadvantage involved, the force you transfer will be minimal, and indirect. The principles are the same in both cases. In one case you are transferring energy to accelerate a mass using the short end of a flexible lever, and in the other case you are doing it by giving a direct pull.  The lever is in the second case quite immaterial, and may be ignored. TL MC Again, there’s no "direct" pull on the line. ALL the force affecting the airborne line is generated at the rod tip. If you lay  a piece of string along a table top, and pull one end, depending on the force and speed with which you pull, you can accelerate the string quite easily, giving it very considerable momentum. The string accelerates immediately, simply as a result of the pull. No rods etc are involved. The only force involved is the direct pull. Sure, but that’s not what’s happening when the line is strung though a rod. You (the caster) can exert a force on the line in your left (hauling) hand, but the only force that can be exerted on the airborne line *outside* the rod is exerted at the rod tip. Before hauling was discovered, the line momentum was indeed totally dependent on the acceleration of the rod tip. With hauling, this is no longer the case.  When hauling, the extra line velocity is independent of the rod tip. I’m not saying *anything* about the acceleration of the rod tip. I’m only saying that the force on the line (outside the rod) is generated ONLY at the rod tip. Where else? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de

Response:

This is not a matter of taking sides I hope. Otherwise I will simply retire from the discussion. This is a technical discussion and nothing more. Apart from that, you are perfectly correct. Although the rod loading generated by hauling is inconsequential, irrespective of the current loading state of the rod.  When the rod is already optimally loaded, and as you say at its stiffest, the added loading generated by hauling is so small as to be insignificant. This is just as well, as if hauling did in fact appreciably increase rod loading, then an already optimally loaded rod would simply fold up under the added strain. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – RW,     I have to side with Mike here, for a couple reasons.  If the haul is done right, it happens when the rod is fully loaded.  At that point it’s at it’s stiffest, and the flex isn’t increased much by the added force.  The reaction force is actually the force you apply with your line hand when you haul the line in.      A second reason that the loading is not the key is that you could achieve the same additional loading if you just applied a bit more casting force.  We know that a man of modest strength and a good haul can outcast a muscle man who doesn’t haul.      Also, there is direct pull on the line, the guides are like pulleys.  If you consider an 18 inch haul, and watch the effect on the rod tip, I bet it’s drawn back less than 4 inches.  The other 14 inches were directly applied to the line. Chas

Response:

This would be correct if the line was fixed at the rod tip. When hauling it is not. It moves more or less freely through the guides. The force applied is applied directly to the line, independent of the rod loading.  The "equal and opposite reaction" in this case, is immediate line acceleration due to a direct pull, and is independent of the rod. Some of this force( a relatively small amount actually ) does indeed go towards the total rod loading, but compared to the force which is transferred to the line, this may be more or less ignored.

I’m afraid you’re missing the point, Mike. It’s really irrelevant whether the line is fixed or free to move through the guides. There is a force exerted on the line, by the rod tip, that accelerates the line. There is a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the rod tip. That force has the effect of bending the rod. The greater the force, the more the line is accelerated, and the more the rod is bent (i.e., loaded). None of this force can be "ignored". The force generated by "hauling" is not "applied directly" to the line. It’s applied though the loaded, and increasingly loaded, rod. The acceleration is induced by a direct pull on the line, and is only possible because the line is indeed able to move independent of the rod tip.

Again, there’s no "direct" pull on the line. ALL the force affecting the airborne line is generated at the rod tip. If you lay  a piece of string along a table top, and pull one end, depending on the force and speed with which you pull, you can accelerate the string quite easily, giving it very considerable momentum. The string accelerates immediately, simply as a result of the pull. No rods etc are involved. The only force involved is the direct pull.

Sure, but that’s not what’s happening when the line is strung though a rod. You (the caster) can exert a force on the line in your left (hauling) hand, but the only force that can be exerted on the airborne line *outside* the rod is exerted at the rod tip. Before hauling was discovered, the line momentum was indeed totally dependent on the acceleration of the rod tip. With hauling, this is no longer the case.  When hauling, the extra line velocity is independent of the rod tip.

I’m not saying *anything* about the acceleration of the rod tip. I’m only saying that the force on the line (outside the rod) is generated ONLY at the rod tip. Where else? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Additional rod loading when hauling is  minimal.  Most of the force used is transmitted directly to the line, increasing its speed immediately and drastically. Momentum = Mass * Velocity

I have to doubt that additional rod loading is minimal, Mike. The only way the caster can increase the speed of the line is by accelerating it. The only way he can accelerate it is by exerting a force on the line at the rod tip. (F=ma). An equal and opposite force is exerted on the rod at the tip, which results in loading the rod. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

This would be correct if the line was fixed at the rod tip. When hauling it is not. It moves more or less freely through the guides. The force applied is applied directly to the line, independent of the rod loading.  The "equal and opposite reaction" in this case, is immediate line acceleration due to a direct pull, and is independent of the rod. Some of this force( a relatively small amount actually ) does indeed go towards the total rod loading, but compared to the force which is transferred to the line, this may be more or less ignored. The acceleration is induced by a direct pull on the line, and is only possible because the line is indeed able to move independent of the rod tip. If you lay  a piece of string along a table top, and pull one end, depending on the force and speed with which you pull, you can accelerate the string quite easily, giving it very considerable momentum. The string accelerates immediately, simply as a result of the pull. No rods etc are involved. The only force involved is the direct pull. Before hauling was discovered, the line momentum was indeed totally dependent on the acceleration of the rod tip. With hauling, this is no longer the case.  When hauling, the extra line velocity is independent of the rod tip. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Additional rod loading when hauling is  minimal.  Most of the force used is transmitted directly to the line, increasing its speed immediately and drastically. Momentum = Mass * Velocity I have to doubt that additional rod loading is minimal, Mike. The only way the caster can increase the speed of the line is by accelerating it. The only way he can accelerate it is by exerting a force on the line at the rod tip. (F=ma). An equal and opposite force is exerted on the rod at the tip, which results in loading the rod. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

One other point.  Inertia is the direct measurement of a mass.  The only way to change inertia is to change the mass. One may not "break" inertia.  One may overcome it, ( move the mass) by applying force. Newtons laws explain this relatively simply. The first law states that:  " A body will remain at rest, or continue to move steadily in a straight line without acceleration unless it is acted on by an unopposed force. The second law states: "The acceleration of a body depends directly on the force acting on it but inversely upon its mass" The third law states: "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" Force is a measure of the rate at which momentum is changed. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Additional rod loading when hauling is  minimal.  Most of the force used is transmitted directly to the line, increasing its speed immediately and drastically.

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I sure hope you’re not breaking your wrist with this arm cast, which would be very bad form, you know. JR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree with what you’re saying, but I can "cast" nearly thirty feet by using only my right arm as the rod (with fingers in O shape to act as the tiptop) and a lefthand haul. So there’s more to it than just the rod tip. In fact, in a blindfold test I can’t tell the difference between a Cabelas rod and my own arm

Response:

So, In your estimation, does your wrist have a fast action or slow action and how does it affect your distance?

Well, it’s not a limp wrist I’ll tell you that much And while it *is* acting as the rod tip, it’s not loading in the same sense as a fly rod is it? Isn’t most of the line action due to acceleration because I’m pulling on it (and not wrist flip caused by the pulling)? –Steve

Response:

RW,     I have to side with Mike here, for a couple reasons.  If the haul is done right, it happens when the rod is fully loaded.  At that point it’s at it’s stiffest, and the flex isn’t increased much by the added force.  The reaction force is actually the force you apply with your line hand when you haul the line in.      A second reason that the loading is not the key is that you could achieve the same additional loading if you just applied a bit more casting force.  We know that a man of modest strength and a good haul can outcast a muscle man who doesn’t haul.      Also, there is direct pull on the line, the guides are like pulleys.  If you consider an 18 inch haul, and watch the effect on the rod tip, I bet it’s drawn back less than 4 inches.  The other 14 inches were directly applied to the line. Chas

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This would be correct if the line was fixed at the rod tip. When hauling it is not. It moves more or less freely through the guides. The force applied is applied directly to the line, independent of the rod loading.  The "equal and opposite reaction" in this case, is immediate line acceleration due to a direct pull, and is independent of the rod. Some of this force( a relatively small amount actually ) does indeed go towards the total rod loading, but compared to the force which is transferred to the line, this may be more or less ignored. I’m afraid you’re missing the point, Mike. It’s really irrelevant whether the line is fixed or free to move through the guides. There is a force exerted on the line, by the rod tip, that accelerates the line. There is a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the rod tip. That force has the effect of bending the rod. The greater the force, the more the line is accelerated, and the more the rod is bent (i.e., loaded). None of this force can be "ignored". The force gener ated by "hauling" is not "applied directly" to the line. It’s applied though the loaded, and increasingly loaded, rod. The acceleration is induced by a direct pull on the line, and is only possible because the line is indeed able to move independent of the rod tip. Again, there’s no "direct" pull on the line. ALL the force affecting the airborne line is generated at the rod tip. If you lay  a piece of string along a table top, and pull one end, depending on the force and speed with which you pull, you can accelerate the string quite easily, giving it very considerable momentum. The string accelerates immediately, simply as a result of the pull. No rods etc are involved. The only force involved is the direct pull. Sure, but that’s not what’s happening when the line is strung though a rod. You (the caster) can exert a force on the line in your left (hauling) hand, but the only force that can be exerted on the airborne line *outside* the rod is exerted at the rod tip. Before hauling was discovered, the line momentum was indeed totally dependent on the acceleration of the rod tip. With hauling, this is no longer the case.  When hauling, the extra line velocity is independent of the rod tip. I’m not saying *anything* about the acceleration of the rod tip. I’m only saying that the force on the line (outside the rod) is generated ONLY at the rod tip. Where else? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

So, In your estimation, does your wrist have a fast action or slow action and how does it affect your distance? Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you haul you’re loading the rod by making it work harder against the inertia of the line. I don’t really think "shortening the line" is a good way to look at it. A haul takes in maybe two or three feet of line, and you have maybe 30 feet or more out. I agree with what you’re saying, but I can "cast" nearly thirty feet by using only my right arm as the rod (with fingers in O shape to act as the tiptop) and a lefthand haul. So there’s more to it than just the rod tip. In fact, in a blindfold test I can’t tell the difference between a Cabelas rod and my own arm –Steve

Response:

Additional rod loading when hauling is  minimal.  Most of the force used is transmitted directly to the line, increasing its speed immediately and drastically. Momentum = Mass * Velocity A very short haul of a couple of inches is sufficient to increase line speed drastically, and thus increase its momentum, allowing the mass to be thrown a greater distance. The harder(force), longer ( distance) and faster( time) the haul, the greater the resulting line momentum, independent of the rod.  The same effect may be observed without using a rod at all. Shortening line decreases the mass, and therefore reduces momentum.  As far as hauling is concerned this is more or less negligible. Shortening the line by even a couple of feet, does not reduce its mass by much. If you overload the rod, the haul will still be effective, but due to the rod already being overloaded, additional strain, even slight, due to shock loading might damage it. Otherwise the length of line ( total mass ) is irrelevant when hauling. The effect is the same with or without a rod, and with any length of line. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From what I’ve always been told,  the reason that hauling improves the line speed is that additional loading is put into the rod by the action of hauling. Obviously the hauling is done during the power phases fore and aft.  An immediate reaction of the hauling action is a shortening of the line,  and therefore an increase in velocity:  Is it at all significant compared to the additional loading of the rod?  Is the inertia of the line broken by the haul and therefore allows the spring of the rod to work on an already moving line? I suppose the way to test it out would be to overline a rod and cast a sufficient length of line to overload the rod.  Would hauling be effective? According to the simple haul/loading spring idea,  the haul would (perhaps) be ineffective, though the shortening of the line (derived from the haul) would still prevail?

Response:

When you haul you’re loading the rod by making it work harder against the inertia of the line. I don’t really think "shortening the line" is a good way to look at it. A haul takes in maybe two or three feet of line, and you have maybe 30 feet or more out.

I agree with what you’re saying, but I can "cast" nearly thirty feet by using only my right arm as the rod (with fingers in O shape to act as the tiptop) and a lefthand haul. So there’s more to it than just the rod tip. In fact, in a blindfold test I can’t tell the difference between a Cabelas rod and my own arm –Steve

Response:

From what I’ve always been told,  the reason that hauling improves the line speed is that additional loading is put into the rod by the action of hauling. Obviously the hauling is done during the power phases fore and aft.  An immediate reaction of the hauling action is a shortening of the line,  and therefore an increase in velocity:  Is it at all significant compared to the additional loading of the rod?  Is the inertia of the line broken by the haul and therefore allows the spring of the rod to work on an already moving line? I suppose the way to test it out would be to overline a rod and cast a sufficient length of line to overload the rod.  Would hauling be effective? According to the simple haul/loading spring idea,  the haul would (perhaps) be ineffective, though the shortening of the line (derived from the haul) would still prevail?

Response:

From what I’ve always been told,  the reason that hauling improves the line speed is that additional loading is put into the rod by the action of hauling. Obviously the hauling is done during the power phases fore and aft.  An immediate reaction of the hauling action is a shortening of the line,  and therefore an increase in velocity:  Is it at all significant compared to the additional loading of the rod?  Is the inertia of the line broken by the haul and therefore allows the spring of the rod to work on an already moving line?

When you haul you’re loading the rod by making it work harder against the inertia of the line. I don’t really think "shortening the line" is a good way to look at it. A haul takes in maybe two or three feet of line, and you have maybe 30 feet or more out. Imagine what would happen if the end of the line were attached to a springy tree branch when you hauled. (An all too frequent occurence in my case.) The rod would bend even if you didn’t move it forward. By hauling, you cause an increase in the force exerted by the rod tip on the line. When you haul in the normal, more felicitous case, more or less the same thing happens, but the resistance of the tree branch is replaced by the inertia of the line. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Question:

Ahem New site here in good ol’ SA www.troutfishing.co.za Cheers Ari

Response:

Ahem New site here in good ol’ SA www.troutfishing.co.za

Rugby, braaivleis, sunny skies and Chevrolet…. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

Question:

Now, I’ve sat and listened to Indian Joe wind up and let fly with some tales that had everyone in the room exchanging "knowing glances" in between belly-laughs – but this one seems over the top, even for IJ ;^)

Yep, he always gets Chill Wills and Slim Pickens mixed up… — Charlie…

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______  Commercial Budweiser is for sissy’’s.  Western boys brew their own! Right T-bone? ; )  Make some of that RATTLESNAKE RED!  Yummmmmmmmmmmy!!!!

Yup…but when the brewery is shut down for construction…ya gotta just make do. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…" B.M.P.I.A.

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You’ve hit on the reason why hazing will never die:  The only way to assuage the pang of indignity is to pass it on.  And so it goes…

Oh, I don’t know. I think there’s a lot more to it than passing down indignities. Team building, male bonding etc. etc. Not that I’m in favor of hazing but I’ve endured some, I’ve inflicted some and I’m no worse for the we&*6YHOU&UK arghhh, kill, kill, sue, sue, CANCEL THE WHOLE DAMN HOCKEY SEASON. — Ken Fortenberry

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______  Commercial Budweiser is for sissy’’s.  Western boys brew their own! Right T-bone? ; )  Make some of that RATTLESNAKE RED!  Yummmmmmmmmmmy!!!! Mr. G.

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Now listen here bud,   awwwww, forget it. TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

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Ken Fortenberry wrote We had a six-holer at scout camp with a cellar door on the back for "honey-truck" access. Part of the initiation ritual for first year staff included a very large rock dropped into the muck from the cellar door while the rookies occupied the outhouse. Kinda funny actually, from your second year on.

You’ve hit on the reason why hazing will never die:  The only way to assuage the pang of indignity is to pass it on.  And so it goes… —                                                       -dnc-

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two-story outhouse. How would that work? —

The story I got was that the outhouse had been built for a hotel that was built during the 1880’s and the hotel was above the timberline. The snow got so deep that the hotel and all other buildings had have doors  that worked when the snow was so high that doors on the first floor could not be opened…you just couldnot wait till the snow melts, so… Big Dale

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daytripper wrote Now, I’ve sat and listened to Indian Joe wind up and let fly with some tales that had everyone in the room exchanging "knowing glances" in between belly-laughs – but this one seems over the top, even for IJ ;^)

The man is no fool.  Over the top is exactly where you want to be while using the establishment in question!  (Especially if ET2 is standing outside throwing rocks into the muck)

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TBone wrote [deleted] To hell with the beer. To hell with beer ? 30 DAYS IN THE HOLE ! NEXT !

Sorry.  Misspoke.  Meant to say, "To hell with the Bud" Can I be excused now? —                                                       -dnc-

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To hell with the beer.  I’m still trying to visualize a two-story outhouse. How would that work? Pretty shitty for the 1st floor tenant, I’d imagine… — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…" B.M.P.I.A.

______  Great!  If David LaCourse was on the first floor. Dang!  Did I say that?  Sorry David, even you don’t deserve that. — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/  Updates http://www.gink.com/chat Flyfishing Conversations 6:00 PM PST till after midnight.

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Awww shit, now you’ve done it, you mentioned beer in a Western ‘Clave thread. I can hear the thread cop sirens in the distance …

Remove your hands from the keyboard, and leave them where I can see ‘em… Let me be sure that I’m understanding correctly: We have a nasty C&R thread that’s forked, we have a couple of g*nk threads, and people are complaining about beer postings in a Clave thread? I’m sure that there’s logic behind such matters. I’m also sure that I’m not following it. "They conferred, as against the Government, the right to be let alone — the most comprehensive of rights…" -Justice Louis Brandeis

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I had to do a search and see if I could find a photo of this two-story outhouse on the Internet.  I remember watching a program about a two- story outhouse on t.v.   Additionally, thought I could remember seeing a photo on the Internet of a two-story outhouse.  So, I had to refined the photo.  Here are the photos of two-story outhouses that I’ve found. http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/5047/outhouse.html http://w3.trib.com/~leebo/gem.htm http://www.mich.com/~jloose/ohorania.htm — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html Before you buy.

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Here are some more photos. http://www2.macomb.k12.mi.us/mich/m2-site/fayette/fayette004/gif/035.GIF http://www2.macomb.k12.mi.us/mich/m2-site/fayette/fayette005/gif/038.GIF http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/wanderers/Brokenislands/outhouse.htm — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html Before you buy.

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To hell with the [budweiser].  I’m still trying to visualize a two- story outhouse.  How would that work?

When you see a two story outhouse, you’re in an area that gets lots of snow. the bottom level is snowed in for much of the winter. Encampment, Wyoming has one of these, too. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyo Before you buy.

Response:

When you see a two story outhouse, you’re in an area that gets lots of snow. the bottom level is snowed in for much of the winter.

This is not always the case.  The web sites that I found talk about the two story outhouse being next to a hotel.  The top part was for those people that had a hotel room on the second floor.  A small bridge was built to the outhouse so they would not need to walk down at night. — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html Before you buy.

Response:

To hell with the beer.  I’m still trying to visualize a two-story outhouse. How would that work? It wouldn’t, and that’s the joke.

We had a six-holer at scout camp with a cellar door on the back for "honey-truck" access. Part of the initiation ritual for first year staff included a very large rock dropped into the muck from the cellar door while the rookies occupied the outhouse. Kinda funny actually, from your second year on. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Been in that very house. We had eaten a bunch of green chjili in Chayanne at the radeo the night before and were dam glad to drive up upon it. Luckly it is a four holer and the seats do not6 line up.   chill Wills my traveling mate and I went upstairs and we sent the greek belly dancer downstairs. Boys it was bad. Indian Joe    Wilmington N.C.

Now, I’ve sat and listened to Indian Joe wind up and let fly with some tales that had everyone in the room exchanging "knowing glances" in between belly-laughs – but this one seems over the top, even for IJ ;^)

Response:

1/10/00 Ruling 611/b In the Matter:   First use of Word "beer" in Western Clave Thread Ruling: Dismissal of Query. Reason: Mere use of the word "beer" does not constitute an offense, unless the word(s) "Budwiser," or "Bud," or any similar, are used in the same post as the word "beer." Issued by Order of , , , Thread Police Summary Justice Authority "To Serve and Protect" Have a nice day – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Awww shit, now you’ve done it, you mentioned beer in a Western ‘Clave thread. I can hear the thread cop sirens in the distance … — Ken Fortenberry- you have the right to remain on topic,                 anything you say can be used against you …

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Ken Fortenberry wrote Back in the early 80’s on one of my trips from the summer hell of Texas in August, one of my friends and I pulled our motorcycles up in a little town that I think is a little west of Ennis and decided to drink a beer … Awww shit, now you’ve done it, you mentioned beer in a Western ‘Clave thread.

To hell with the beer.  I’m still trying to visualize a two-story outhouse.  How would that work? —                                                       -dnc-

Response:

To hell with the beer.  I’m still trying to visualize a two-story outhouse. How would that work?

Pretty shitty for the 1st floor tenant, I’d imagine… — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…" B.M.P.I.A.

Response:

Been in that very house. We had eaten a bunch of green chjili in Chayanne at the radeo the night before and were dam glad to drive up upon it. Luckly it is a four holer and the seats do not6 line up.   chill Wills my traveling mate and I went upstairs and we sent the greek belly dancer downstairs. Boys it was bad.  Indian Joe    Wilmington N.C.

Response:

To hell with the beer.  I’m still trying to visualize a two-story outhouse. How would that work?

It wouldn’t, and that’s the joke.

Response:

[deleted] To hell with the beer.

To hell with beer ? 30 DAYS IN THE HOLE ! NEXT ! — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…" B.M.P.I.A.

Response:

Back in the early 80’s on one of my trips from the summer hell of Texas in August, one of my friends and I pulled our motorcycles up in a little town that I think is a little west of Ennis and decided to drink a beer and check out the sights. I took a picture which accidentaly turned out very good. This is unusual for me, but when I show off this picture of a two story outhouse, most turn it over to see where the postcard is from. It seems like they had torn down some old buildings from all over the state and reassembled them in this little town I guess as sort of a tourist thing. At any rate I can’t remember the name of the town. It could have been Virginia City or it could be some other little town in the area. Does anyone know which town I am talking about? Most folks remember it if they have ever seen a two story outhouse. It is not a bad place to burn up some film. At any rate I would encourage all to bring a camera and to remember to take pictures of things other than fish. Big Dale

Response:

Back in the early 80’s on one of my trips from the summer hell of Texas in August, one of my friends and I pulled our motorcycles up in a little town that I think is a little west of Ennis and decided to drink a beer …

Awww shit, now you’ve done it, you mentioned beer in a Western ‘Clave thread. I can hear the thread cop sirens in the distance … — Ken Fortenberry- you have the right to remain on topic,                  anything you say can be used against you …

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Question:

I am trying to find out where a good place to go fly fishing in the

early spring is.  It has to be running water and shallow enough to wade in and hopefully not tooooo many people.  Any tips will be greatly appreciated. Uhh….within an [n] mile radius of where ?  

  Money, travel no object ? If money & travel are no object, go to New Zealand.  It will be late summer – early fall there.  Bring hoppers! CQ

Response:

I am trying to find out where a good place to go fly fishing in the early spring is.  It has to be running water and shallow enough to wade in and hopefully not tooooo many people.  Any tips will be greatly appreciated.

Northwest Nevada is normally very good in the eary spring  However this year is a big question mark after the floods.  If cold weater sets in and reduces the runoff, and the fish have not been washed away, rivers like the East Fork of the Walker fish real well    

Response:

I am trying to find out where a good place to go fly fishing in the early spring is.  It has to be running water and shallow enough to wade in and hopefully not tooooo many people.  Any tips will be greatly appreciated.

Response:

I am trying to find out where a good place to go fly fishing in the early spring is.  It has to be running water and shallow enough to wade in and hopefully not tooooo many people.  Any tips will be greatly appreciated.

Uhh….within an [n] mile radius of where ?   Money, travel no object ? TimW

Response:

I am trying to find out where a good place to go fly fishing in the early spring is.  It has to be running water and shallow enough to wade in and hopefully not tooooo many people.  Any tips will be greatly appreciated.

Hi Montana has some great early spring fishing. When I say early I’m talking about March and April before spring run off. The Bighorn is often very productive at this time and does not have the crowds you can expect during the summer. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 materials catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

Response:

Question:

I am looking for royalty free clip-art of trout and flyfishing in general. I have some Corel 3.0 clip-art but it is pretty skimpy. I remember running across a site that had some free clip art by Dave Whitlock. Unfortunately, I don’t remember the address. <snip — K.G. (Kat) Cruickshank, ichthyophile. Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

K.G. Try – http://www.flyfield.com/clipart.htm Mike

Response:

Try http://www.flyfield.com for royalty free clip art by Dave Whitlock.

Response:

I am looking for royalty free clip-art of trout and flyfishing in general. I have some Corel 3.0 clip-art but it is pretty skimpy. I would appreciate any information on sites where this clip-art can be downloaded from. Thanks for your help. Frank Wood.

There is some on http://www.elisis.demon.co.uk/ukflyw3/ mainly salmon related, mainly antique. Andrew

Response:

I am looking for royalty free clip-art of trout and flyfishing in general. I have some Corel 3.0 clip-art but it is pretty skimpy. I would appreciate any information on sites where this clip-art can be downloaded from. Thanks for your help. Frank Wood.

Response:

I am looking for royalty free clip-art of trout and flyfishing in general. I have some Corel 3.0 clip-art but it is pretty skimpy.

I remember running across a site that had some free clip art by Dave Whitlock. Unfortunately, I don’t remember the address. If you do an Alta Vista search on his name it’s sure to turn up though. (And yes, it was legitimate, no copyright violations. Mr. Whitlock himself had generously made this stuff available.) — K.G. (Kat) Cruickshank, ichthyophile. Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

Response:

Question:

Does anyone know of a good place to get away for some good fly fishing?  I am willing to hike 4-8 miles in order to find some seclusion and good fly angling.  I’m thinking of going somewhere near the Emigrant Wilderness area early next month.  If your spot is top secret, please Email me directly and I’ll use it very discretely.  Thanks for the good help.

Response:

I will be going into the high country out of Kings Canyone later this month – 10,000′ and up. I inherited a fly rod & reel, and will be taking it along to experiment. I have caught a few trout with it already. I would appreciate any reccomendatiions on what works best in that area as far as fly selections. I will stock up a bit, but can’t get too carried away with gear. Thanks Brian Millin

Response:

I will be going into the high country out of Kings Canyone later this month – 10,000′ and up. <snip I would appreciate any reccomendatiions on what works best in that area as far as fly selections. <snip

Brian, This is almost too easy.  You can catch fish in the high country on just about anything.  Last week I had a brookie hit my strike indicator, and wouldn’t let go! The streams between lakes, and where streams enter lakes are great spots to fish, but you probably already know this.  You can keep your fly selection very limited and simple.  Sizes 12, 14, 16 mainly.  Take along some Adams or Bi-visibles or Royal Wulffs, Gold Ribbed Hares Ear Nymphs, a Wooley Bugger or two.  These fish will NOT be selective.   Be sure to fish barbless, because you’ll catch way to many to keep them all, plus you want to release them fast to catch some more.  Fish every little pocket and seam, cover the water thoroughly, you won’t be disappointed. Write back when you return, Bruce

Response:

Does anyone know of a good place to get away for some good fly fishing?  I am willing to hike 4-8 miles in order to find some seclusion and good fly angling.  I’m thinking of going somewhere near the Emigrant Wilderness area early next month.  If your spot is top secret, please Email me directly and I’ll use it very discretely.  Thanks for the good help.

As far as I’m concerned, the Emigrant Wilderness offers the best fishing to be found in the Sierra backcountry.  I can count on rainbows and brookies in the 18" to 20" range on most of my trips now.  I’ve found the key to good lake fishing is getting in the water.  That plus my black wooly buggers.  The only problem (or saving grace?) with the Emigrant Wilderness is that all of the worthwhile destinations begin at about the 15 mile mark.  So it doesn’t offer much to the weekender. If you’ve got the time, I suggest you contact the Kennedy Meadows Resort (1-209-965-3900) for horse packing information.  A pack trip is fairly inexpensive, you can get a long ways into the mountains and you can live slightly above the austere level of the shoe-buckeroo.  I would be happy to help you get hooked up on a trip, as I do a bit of cooking for the pack station from time to time.

Response:

Question:

-40F temperatures

(Bud Kuenzli) writes: No no non! I straightened the boy out and reminded him how miserable it is here in winter. Another posting like that and I’ll look this guy up in the phone book and….ah hell, I’d probably end up buying him a beer and chuckling. Damn!

Yeah, you musta found that eating place. Yeah keep reminding people about the cold. In cyberspace after you get where you’re going you still don’t know where you are.

Yep.  Phone system too.

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vacation, stick with Hawai -that’s what Alaskans do!

True, true, but when you live in Paradise, you must get Outside occasionally, and what better place to visit than Hawaii (aside from Nepal, Tibet, Bhutan 8^)? I still say miserable is in the eye of the beholder… Dave

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vacation, stick with Hawaii -that’s what Alaskans do!

Yeah what’s what some of my friends do: go ski Mauna Kea.

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It was a great trip!

It was a tourist trip.  Not representative of life there (the sampling bias included summer, near the ocean, etc.).  Small details. However…. While it is a nice place to visit, I myself wouldn’t want to live there. From what I saw, my conclusion was this: To live in Alaska, a person should       (1) be nearly independently wealthy

Not necessary. and/or (2) be a rugged self-sufficient individualist.

The Alaskan women’s lament:         The odds are good, the goods are odd. It came at some distress to me that a couple of my male friends might be guilty of some of the abuse one hears about up there (not all just a couple).  Not an easy picture. Living in or near a major city (Anchorage, Fairbanks, or Juneau) wouldn’t

"Lost Anchorage != Alaska"         [Not my words, merely a quote from friends in Fairbanks.] I don’t have any climate records handy but heard about winter temps that can be as low as -20 and -40 degrees F.

This is highly dependent upon ocean proxmity.  Interior temperatures get much colder and have other interesting consequences. Don’t allow my pessimistic statements detour you from your dreams. However, I STRONGLY advise you to VISIT Alaska BEFORE moving there.  

You aren’t pessimistic, in fact, your notes were on the tame side. You can read books, looks at pictures, and tabulate statistics, but there is no substitute for the actual experience.           Bingo. Go and spend a month traveling around the cities and rural areas.   Most cities/towns have some sort of Chamber of commerce, or a visitors information center.  Get to know the local people;

Panel 26: alt.culture.alaska.

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It was a great trip! It was a tourist trip.  Not representative of life there (the sampling bias included summer, near the ocean, etc.).  Small details.

Alaska is nowhere. Don’t bother going there. It’s cold, dark and miserable in winter. In summer the prices are jacked up for the tourists and the people are rude and the roads are lousy. It rains in the south and there’s nothing to see around Fairbanks at all. Talk about a crummy place – I’d just drive right through that place! But Anchorage is pretty with the Mountains and ocean. It’s a nice spot that’s worth spending time at. (hi, Eugene   ) — Bud Kuenzli WL7CIK XLTRMK In cyberspace after you get where you’re going you still don’t know where you are.

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Suitably warned! (Bud Kuenzli) writes: Alaska is nowhere. Don’t bother going there. It’s cold, dark and miserable in winter. In summer the prices are jacked up for the tourists and the people are rude and the roads are lousy. It rains in the south and there’s nothing to see around Fairbanks at all. Talk about a crummy place – I’d just drive right through that place! But Anchorage is pretty with the Mountains and ocean. It’s a nice spot that’s worth spending time at.

You left out infested with killer, blood thirsty, man-eating mosquitos (female). Then there’s winter stagnent air which hangs over Fairbanks….. Square tires. We need to introduce you to the high religion of Vail.  R.s.a. has started moving to the fine are of selective editing. (hi, Eugene   )

Hi Bud!  You must have found the crab place 8^).

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: Alaska is nowhere. Don’t bother going there. It’s cold, dark and miserable : in winter. In summer the prices are jacked up for the tourists and the : people are rude and the roads are lousy. It rains in the south and there’s : nothing to see around Fairbanks at all. Talk about a crummy place – I’d : just drive right through that place! But Anchorage is pretty with the : Mountains and ocean. It’s a nice spot that’s worth spending time at. Bud, I guess there are some things you can control and others that you can’t. No sense complaining about the weather but… You forgot to mention how nice Vail is. Vail.  That’s the ticket. Dave Mann           | "It is impossible, or not easy, to do                     |  noble acts without the proper equipment."

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – says… I would suggest to visit in the not so pleasent Winter also before moving up here. Winter. Winter is quite pleasant. 8^) I agree… fewer tourists, more relaxed pace, less crowded and, winter colors are wonderful…

NONSENSE ! Winter in Alaska is MISERABLE. It’s COLD, it’s DARK, there’s NOTHING to do. NOBODY would enjoy it unless they are masochists. If you want a good winter vacation, stick with Hawai -that’s what Alaskans do! — Bud Kuenzli WL7CIK XLTRMK In cyberspace after you get where you’re going you still don’t know where you are.

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(Fuminous Bandersnatch) writes: …Beautiful sunrises of pinks and purples and fluorescent oranges. Also,  sun dogs, air pockets that refract light commensurate with their varied temperatures.  It’s not unusual to have ground level -40 and 100ft straight up a temperature of +20.  The differences in air density can produce "double vision" i.e., two suns.

Keep those -40F temperatures coming. Continue injecting some of that reality! Where else can such meterological oddities be seen???

South Pole, Antarctica, Siberia, Greenland, NWT, Yukon. Ref: Rainbows, Halos, and Glories by Greenly. and nifty people, too.  Yep… winter’s OK by me… for a month.

Yep.

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(Fuminous Bandersnatch) writes: …Beautiful sunrises of pinks and purples and fluorescent oranges. Also,  sun dogs, air pockets that refract light commensurate with their varied temperatures.  It’s not unusual to have ground level -40 and 100ft straight up a temperature of +20.  The differences in air density can produce "double vision" i.e., two suns. Keep those -40F temperatures coming. Continue injecting some of that reality!

No no non! I straightened the boy out and reminded him how miserable it is here in winter. Another posting like that and I’ll look this guy up in the phone book and….ah hell, I’d probably end up buying him a beer and chuckling. Damn! — Bud Kuenzli WL7CIK XLTRMK In cyberspace after you get where you’re going you still don’t know where you are.

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I would suggest to visit in the not so pleasent Winter also before moving up here.

Winter. Winter is quite pleasant. 8^)

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says… I would suggest to visit in the not so pleasent Winter also before moving up here. Winter. Winter is quite pleasant. 8^)

I agree… fewer tourists, more relaxed pace, less crowded and, winter colors are wonderful…Beautiful sunrises of pinks and purples and fluorescent oranges.  There is/was an ice cream bar, I think called "sidewalk sundae" that’s vanilla ice cream covered with orange sherbert.  Those are the colors but with pastel grape and hot pink bubble gum thrown in.  Sunsets aren’t from the pastel palette rather, hunter orange, a narrow band of turquoise blending to an ever darkening grape jello.   It’s hard to look at.  The orange so bright and the jello so dark, contrast is beyond what my eyes can comfortably accommodate. But, because sun set/rises occur slowly (at this latitude), there is a point that viewing is possible- provided ice fog will allow.  "Icebows"- like a rainbow but from ice occur too…  Really neat.  Also,  sun dogs, air pockets that refract light commensurate with their varied temperatures.   It’s not unusual to have ground level -40 and 100ft straight up a temperature of +20.  The differences in air density cane produce "double vision" i.e., two suns.  Where else can such meterological oddities be seen???  and nifty people, too.  Yep… winter’s OK by me… for a month.

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I would suggest to visit in the not so pleasent Winter also before moving up here.  I and my family love it but it is not for everyone.  That’s one of the reasons I love it.  It will take a long time before the "Californacators" get up here.  You won’t how-ever find a more friendly, caring and energetic bunch of people anywhere. Ace in Two Rivers, Ak

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Am interested in moving to Alaska.  Would like to visit first.  Anyone here been there?  Please share as much information as you wish concerning topics related to weather, jobs, favorite spots, village life, etc. Thanks to all.

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Am interested in moving to Alaska.  Would like to visit first.  Anyone here been there?  Please share as much information as you wish concerning topics related to weather, jobs, favorite spots, village life, etc. Thanks to all. I went to Alaska for six weeks in 1984. It is, without question, beautiful all over. I was in anchorage for a couple days, then off to Fairbanks. We spent a week on the Tanana river, two weeks mountain climbing at Black Rapids (Gunnysack Mountain), and a week up at the Glacier in Denali. The other week was spent goofing off. We got there the last week of July; spent all of August there, and then a week of September. There was 24 hours of daylight at first, and by the end of the trip, it was snowing. Contrast. Big contrast. I noticed that everyone I talked to Loved Alaska. I thought, well, that makes sense. But then I got talking to this old lady taxi driver, and she made a profound observation. It was Summer, and all of the people who had spent the last winter there, and realized what the winter’s were all about, had left Alaska for somewhere else. Probably left during the last winter. She said people usually stay a season, and if they’re cut out for it, they stay. If they can’t they leave. Alaska just isn’t a wishy washy kind of place.  I kept noticing how healthy everything was. Everything from bugs to bears are like the top of the line. There isn’t much polution (yet), and living things just flourish. I Loved Alaska. There’s a piece of me still up there, and like the Grand Canyon, I would recommend anyone with even the vaguest of opportunities go! Go without question. But then, I haven’t wintered there. It’s a significant consideration. db

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Am interested in moving to Alaska.  Would like to visit first.  Anyone here been there?  Please share as much information as you wish concerning topics related to weather, jobs, favorite spots, village life, etc.  Thanks to all.

Joyce –  I just spent 16 days (Aug 23 – Sept 7) in Alaska.  It was a package tour; traveled by bus, train, boat and foot.  Visited Anchorage, Valdez, Denali National Park, Fairbanks, Delta Junction, Tok, Chicken, Eagle, and then followed the Yukon River into Canada, visiting Dawson City and Whitehorse. We continued south back into Alaska and went to Skagway, Juneau, Glacier Bay National Park, Sitka, and finally flew out of Vancouver. (Whew!) Scenery was/is spectacular; mountains, meadows, rivers, islands and glaciers. It was Autumn up there during that time; the Popular trees were golden yellow. Weather was mild; temps = 40s to 60s F.  Saw much wildlife; bears (Grizzly, Black, Brown), caribou, moose, Bald Eagles, Daw-(spelling?)-Sheep (mountain goats), swans, seals, whales, salmon, etc.  We spent time in all the major cities as well as some of the rural outback towns.  Talked to permanent residents, part-time (summer) residents and the native (Indian) peoples. It was a great trip! However…. While it is a nice place to visit, I myself wouldn’t want to live there. From what I saw, my conclusion was this: To live in Alaska, a person should        (1) be nearly independently wealthy and/or (2) be a rugged self-sufficient individualist. The cost of living is rather high. Due to the remoteness of the entire state, most everything has to be shipped-in from the ‘Lower-48′ (generally out of Seattle).  This transportation by boat/plane/train can raise the price of an item anywhere from 30% to 80% (my rough estimate).  95% of all food has to be imported (fact).  I would guess similar percentages would apply to clothing, hardware, building supplies, etc.  Houses that would sell for 100K here in Tucson, cost 250K in Alaska.  Building over permafrost can add significant costs to a house.  Most sources of employment are dependent on the major industry which is tourism (running neck and neck with industrial fishing and logging). All of these are seasonal.   Tourism season runs from May through Sept; a five month window to earn an annual salary.  Some people I talked to had one job in Alaska during the summer then spent the winter working at another job somewhere else, someplace warm. Living in or near a major city (Anchorage, Fairbanks, or Juneau) wouldn’t be too difficult.  But those who live in the rural ‘outback’ areas have to deal with some unique logistical problems.  Most of these towns have no (or very limited) grocery/hardware stores.  Getting something a simple as food or a tool can be a major project.  In the town of Eagle we were told that all groceries were ordered out of a catalog and delivered once every two weeks.  Eagle has a dirt road to it. Many towns do not have roads connecting them to the world; bush-planes are the only way in/out.   In these places, food and other supplies arrive about once a month or so.   Less often during the winter.  If a person has a medical problem and it is necessary to be flown to a major city, the transportation bill alone can run several thousands of dollars.  Many medical plans do not cover transportation costs. I don’t have any climate records handy but heard about winter temps that can be as low as -20 and -40 degrees F.   Any good local public or university library near you should have historical records from the National Weather Service.  While there you might also find some books on living in Alaska.  Please do some research to verify or disprove my impressions. Don’t allow my pessimistic statements detour you from your dreams. However, I STRONGLY advise you to VISIT Alaska BEFORE moving there.   You can read books, looks at pictures, and tabulate statistics, but there is no substitute for the actual experience.   Go and spend a month traveling around the cities and rural areas.   Most cities/towns have some sort of Chamber of commerce, or a visitors information center.  Get to know the local people; find out about the costs and living conditions/problems.   Best of luck to you on your journey.  |  Bruce Russell  : AZMET Lab = (520) 621-9742 : FAX = (520) 621-9796    |  |  Soil, Water Science Dept., 429 Shantz Bldg #38, Univ of AZ,           |  |  Tucson, AZ  85721                    http://ag.arizona.edu/~brussell  |

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snip…chuckle chuckle I don’t have any climate records handy but heard about winter temps that can be as low as -20 and -40 degrees F.

You must have got a good laugh at those balmy temperatures. 8^) -75F (where our thermometer bottomed out – might have been a bit chillier) is our house’s record.  :) We keep a portable generator on-hand  in case we would have a power failure when it is cold. We need power to run the oil-furnace, but we have two fireplaces (not efficient) to help out when needed. I live outside Fairbanks. It gets fairly chilly at times.

While it is interesting visiting friends, there’s the little touches which make life there more bearable like the plugs for block heaters at every decent parking spot.  I had a chance to see the new elementary school (I should have taken a look at your high school while I was there). It is every things which I think most people are clueless about (you have running water at your house? none of my friends do).  First time I ever met some one with a Clivus at home (it was fun, as opposed to certain public places). I might be back toward the end of Feb. or early March to go climbing. Depends what happens winter 97-98. So did you get all-you-eat king crab?  Or have the owners folded and head South? 8^)

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snip…chuckle chuckle I don’t have any climate records handy but heard about winter temps that can be as low as -20 and -40 degrees F.   Any good local public or university library near you should have historical records from the National Weather Service.  While there you might also find some books on living in Alaska.  Please do some research to verify or disprove my impressions.

  There have been days when -40F seemed like a heat wave and that’s no exageration.  -75F (where our thermometer bottomed out – might have been a bit chillier) is our house’s record. We cut holes in our walls to let the air in the room get to the pipes in the walls so they wouldn’t freeze. We’ve just placed those sections back and take them out as needed – not often.  :)  :) We keep a portable generator on-hand  in case we would have a power failure when it is cold. We need power to run the oil-furnace, but we have two fireplaces (not efficient) to help out when needed. I live outside Fairbanks. It gets fairly chilly at times. — Bud Kuenzli WL7CIK XLTRMK In cyberspace after you get where you’re going you still don’t know where you are.

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Wood – Tikchik State Park Kayaks are an enjoyable means of water- based transportation.  One need not be a seasoned kayaker to learn how to paddle effectively.  Our guides, all of whom are experienced paddlers, have a flare for teaching the various techniques. Come paddle with us through the nation

Question:

Can anyone give me any advise re using float tubes for fishing ? Anyone with any experiences pro or con would be appreciated. Thanks, Ron Ronald W Becker California " looking here and there for an interesting sight or two"

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Can anyone give me any advise re using float tubes for fishing ? Anyone with any experiences pro or con would be appreciated. Thanks, Ron

    My advise, as both a warm and cold water tuber, is to borrow one and fish the waters where you will want to spend most of your time. Find out as cheaply as possable if it is for you. Ask your fishing buddies or the tubers that you see at your lake. Folks love to share their experiences!     You will hear that one type of geer is best or that you will need such and such a thing, unless you have money to burn go slow. Some of the young guys like to use big hard fins that would kill me. So what is perfect for others is not always right for you. I started out with the cheapest, bare bones tube that I could find. Fished it for large mouth bass in warm water for a spring/summer and was quite happy with what I could do with it. So, the next spring I took it up into the mountains, 10,000 feet, high and cold. Found out that I needed more stuff, neophrene waiders, thermals, and an air pump. My point is, to not buy everything that you think that you could possiably ever need when you start. Grow into it.     Also, after a couple tubes, I found that the delux, high priced models, didn’t really improve the experience for me and infact made it somewhat more difficult because I tended to fill up all the pockets with stuff and then had to carry/kick the added weight. Though for equipment junkies the added features is just great.      Tubes are great in my opinion, and if you think that you are interested in the quiet, solitude, control, and exercise, go for it! brian

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Can anyone give me any advise re using float tubes for fishing ? Anyone with any experiences pro or con would be appreciated. Thanks, Ron

I was thinking of picking up a tube for river and pond fishing around Central Ohio late this summer, but decided on what is known as a kickboat.  If you don’t know, a kickboat is generally a small dual-pontoon type craft, with a fixed seat between the two pontoons.  Advantanges over tubes are that they are more stable, more comfortable, offer more storage, and you can add oar kits and even trolling motors to some.  Disadvantages are that they are slightly bigger, take more time to assemble, and are generally more expensive. I bought a J&R Outfitters Kingfisher III.  It’s a nice boat: the length is about 9′, very well constructed, and assembles very quickly.  I was also able to fit it in the back of my Eagle Talon!  I purchased mine with the optional oar kit (this is a fixed-oar kit with a kick bar to rest your feet), and a rear storage/cooler rack (will support up to 50 pounds).  The boat supports a total of 450 pounds, and again, is very stable.  I plan to buy the trolling motor when it’s ready in January. Again, they are expensive (I paid a total of 600.00 for the boat, oar kit, and storage rack, and the trolling motor kit will run 400.00), but I think they are better than tubes for a couple of reasons: one, you get a fixed seat with backrest and armrests. Secondly, you can get an oar kit, which is much better than kick-fins in most occassions.  Third, they hold more gear.  Lastly, you can keep your butt dry and not necessarily need waders!  They take a little while to assemble if you don’t put them together before leaving home (mine takes about 20 minutes including the 10 it takes to inflate the pontoons with a hand pump), and are heavy to lug around (although mine is a deluxe: you can get smaller, less expensive units that also weigh less), but I do like mine.   It was great catching the largest smallmouth I’ve ever caught (a little over 4 pounds) on it’s maden voyage! In all honesty, I’ll probably buy a tube this spring for the times I don’t need to cover a lot of water!

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: Can anyone give me any advise re using float tubes for fishing ? : Anyone with any experiences pro or con would be appreciated. : Thanks, Ron : Ronald W Becker : California : " looking here and there for an interesting sight or two"         Hey Ron,         Don’t use them in shark infested waters or in lakes with six foot snappin turtles!! Seriously, I’ve been fly fishing out of one for 2 years and love it. If fly fishing, I recomend at least an 8 ft rod. Also pisses the landlocked guys off when you haul in a trophy right out of their casting range!! Kinda fun!                                         dale — End of network mail

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Can anyone give me any advise re using float tubes for fishing ?

I would like to try this. But I don’t feel comfortable flowing down the river in a tube with myself somewhat tangled in it.  Can someone provide some statistics on the safety issue.  Thanks, Simon  

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