Question:

And then, if you’re up to it, note the material preceding the quote that begins "I think its extremely bad form…". That’s "it’s," not "its." "It’s" is a contraction of "it is." That’s what I meant and that’s what I wrote. I didn’t intend the possessive "its." Most well educated native speakers know the difference. If you’re going to quote me, please quote me correctly, including standard punctuation as it apppears in the original material. If I get it wrong then please feel free to correct me, with an appropriate "[sic]" notation.

Whatta pputz. Wolfgang

Response:

That’s a great idea, George. This could be fun. I’m thinking of a series of stories describing in excruciating detail every cast, every stream pocket, and every one of the gourmet meals we enjoyed in four days.   :^) By the way, most of our fish were considerably larger than the fish I described out of that particular pool. If merely catching large fish was the objective we would have fished elsewhere. Bob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – God, people?!  How much milage can you milk out of a 3 inch fish conclave? One more post and you gents can apply to the Guiness clan. GG

Response:

God, people?!  How much milage can you milk out of a 3 inch fish conclave? One more post and you gents can apply to the Guiness clan. GG George, if you have nothing nice to say about the Eastern ‘Claves, then BLOW ME!

Come now (heh heh!).  I’ve caught plenty of 3" fish out west too…..

Response:

God, people?!  How much milage can you milk out of a 3 inch fish conclave? One more post and you gents can apply to the Guiness clan. GG George, if you have nothing nice to say about the Eastern ‘Claves, then BLOW ME!

I think it’s extremely bad form for someone from the West to bad-mouth Eastern Claves. And vice versa.

Response:

rw writes: I think it’s extremely bad form for someone from the West to bad-mouth Eastern Claves. And vice versa.

Yep.  Mainly because you get your litotes in a bunch.

Response:

rw writes: I think it’s extremely bad form for someone from the West to bad-mouth Eastern Claves. And vice versa. Yep.  Mainly because you get your litotes in a bunch.

ROFLMAO!!!! Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

I think it’s extremely bad form for someone from the West to bad-mouth Eastern Claves. And vice versa.

I didn’t say anything about ‘claves.  I just told cranky old fart out West to …..you know. Op

Response:

rw writes: I think it’s extremely bad form for someone from the West to bad-mouth Eastern Claves. And vice versa. Yep.  Mainly because you get your litotes in a bunch.

OK, Dave. You seem to think it’s just fine for an Easterner to bad-mouth Western Claves. Go at it.

Response:

rw writes: rw writes: I think it’s extremely bad form for someone from the West to bad-mouth Eastern Claves. And vice versa. Yep.  Mainly because you get your litotes in a bunch. OK, Dave. You seem to think it’s just fine for an Easterner to bad-mouth Western Claves. Go at it.

Where did I say that, rw?  Never said it.  You continue to put words in my mouth.  Oh, I get it.  It’s a figure of speech and a form of rhetoric called "lies."  Look it up.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – rw writes: rw writes: I think it’s extremely bad form for someone from the West to bad-mouth Eastern Claves. And vice versa. Yep.  Mainly because you get your litotes in a bunch. OK, Dave. You seem to think it’s just fine for an Easterner to bad-mouth Western Claves. Go at it. Where did I say that, rw?  Never said it.  You continue to put words in my mouth.  Oh, I get it.  It’s a figure of speech and a form of rhetoric called "lies."  Look it up.

Dave, you need to go back and reread what you wrote. Willi

Response:

rw writes: OK, Dave. You seem to think it’s just fine for an Easterner to bad-mouth Western Claves. Go at it. Where did I say that, rw?  Never said it.  You continue to put words in my mouth.  Oh, I get it.  It’s a figure of speech and a form of rhetoric called "lies."  Look it up.

You were (Must I say it?) whining that the Western Claves are not up to the camadraderie standards of the Eastern Claves. That came at a considerable surprise to me, and I suspect also to the several close friends I’ve made at the Western Claves. Before you get all teary-eyed about not having been able to fish with Warren at HF, let me remind you, once again, that Warren piloted the Gink boat, in which you wouldn’t have been caught dead.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – rw writes: rw writes: I think it’s extremely bad form for someone from the West to bad-mouth Eastern Claves. And vice versa. Yep.  Mainly because you get your litotes in a bunch. OK, Dave. You seem to think it’s just fine for an Easterner to bad-mouth Western Claves. Go at it. Where did I say that, rw?  Never said it.  You continue to put words in my mouth.  Oh, I get it.  It’s a figure of speech and a form of rhetoric called "lies."  Look it up. Dave, you need to go back and reread what you wrote. Willi

Read back up four posts before yours in the quoted material and see if you can figure out who decided the shit needed to be stirred one more time.  If you do it right, there will be no surprise.  And then, if you’re up to it, note the material preceding the quote that begins "I think its extremely bad form…". Well damn, it looks for all the world like a continuation of a long running tete a tete, don’t it?  But, if you take the time (and you can figure it out) you may also note that Stevie’s typical shithead comment did NOT come in response to anything Dave said (as he deliberately implied by his abuse of usenet convention), but instead followed a comment by Mark.  THEN, if you’re head hasn’t started throbbing too badly, you might want to follow what goes on here day in and day out, in which case you will possibly discover that there is a pattern here. Care to guess? Wolfgang

Response:

  you might want to follow what goes on here day in and day out, in which case you will possibly discover that there is a pattern here. Care to guess?

That RW puts a bug up your butt and you jump on anything RW says? Willi

Response:

 you might want to follow what goes on here day in and day out, in which case you will possibly discover that there is a pattern here. Care to guess? That RW puts a bug up your butt and you jump on anything RW says?

Bingo!

Response:

And then, if you’re up to it, note the material preceding the quote that begins "I think its extremely bad form…".

That’s "it’s," not "its." "It’s" is a contraction of "it is." That’s what I meant and that’s what I wrote. I didn’t intend the possessive "its." Most well educated native speakers know the difference. If you’re going to quote me, please quote me correctly, including standard punctuation as it apppears in the original material. If I get it wrong then please feel free to correct me, with an appropriate "[sic]" notation.

Response:

  You were (Must I say it?) whining that the Western Claves are not up to the camadraderie standards of the Eastern Claves. That came at a considerable surprise to me, and I suspect also to the several close friends I’ve made at the Western Claves. Before you get all teary-eyed about not having been able to fish with Warren at HF, let me remind you, once again, that Warren piloted the Gink boat, in which you wouldn’t have been caught dead.

I have to admit with pride R.W. that you certainly are a talented fly fisherman catching more fish than anyone.  Each day, you were "the man".  I had a lot of fun with you and wish to mention the Henry’s Fork Western Conclave was well worth the effort. It was a pleasure fishing with you r.w. Everyone should know Warren and you taught me how to fish a dropper with a bobber (WHOOPS! I mean) "indicator" which is something I’ve never done before.  However; now that we are home chasing Steelhead and other "critters of the deep" I’m back to the single nymphing with no indicators but the fly line.  Incidently, the steelhead fishing this year has been good.  Very good, in fact. Warren is an excellent guide.  He knows those rivers as well as me and probably better now.  Regardless, we have to do this again sometime r.w. Finally, Dave LaCourse?  You’re always welcome in the Gink Drift Boat, dead or alive.  There was a hatched buried at this Western Conclave and for that alone, I’m thankful.  There IS MORE to these get togethers than what meets the eye.  I had a great time. That’s for sure. GeorgeG.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You were (Must I say it?) whining that the Western Claves are not up to the camadraderie standards of the Eastern Claves. That came at a considerable surprise to me, and I suspect also to the several close friends I’ve made at the Western Claves. Before you get all teary-eyed about not having been able to fish with Warren at HF, let me remind you, once again, that Warren piloted the Gink boat, in which you wouldn’t have been caught dead. I have to admit with pride R.W. that you certainly are a talented fly fisherman catching more fish than anyone.  Each day, you were "the man". I had a lot of fun with you and wish to mention the Henry’s Fork Western Conclave was well worth the effort. It was a pleasure fishing with you r.w. Everyone should know Warren and you taught me how to fish a dropper with a bobber (WHOOPS! I mean) "indicator" which is something I’ve never done before.  However; now that we are home chasing Steelhead and other "critters of the deep" I’m back to the single nymphing with no indicators but the fly line.  Incidently, the steelhead fishing this year has been good.  Very good, in fact. Warren is an excellent guide.  He knows those rivers as well as me and probably better now.  Regardless, we have to do this again sometime r.w. Finally, Dave LaCourse?  You’re always welcome in the Gink Drift Boat, dead or alive.  There was a hatched (HATCHET! dang it.) buried at this Western

Conclave and for that – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – alone, I’m thankful.  There IS MORE to these get togethers than what meets the eye.  I had a great time. That’s for sure. GeorgeG.

Response:

I have to admit with pride R.W. that you certainly are a talented fly fisherman catching more fish than anyone.  Each day, you were "the man".  

That’s total bullshit, but I will tell you one thing from my heart. You showed up at the HF Clave. I didn’t think you would, but you did. Another thing, George, is that you deserve a lot of credit for lending your drift boat to Warren. That was generous. It’s helped him a lot. Now please, George, don’t start acting like an asshole on ROFF. We don’t need it. We have plenty of that.

Response:

  you might want to follow what goes on here day in and day out, in which case you will possibly discover that there is a pattern here. Care to guess? That RW puts a bug up your butt and you jump on anything RW says?  

Hm…..don’t understand?…..or just won’t deal with it?  Well, it hardly matters does it?   Ta ta. Wolfgang

Response:

When last we met our fearsome threesome, they were standing on Owl Creek Bridge – oops, make that bridge no. 2 across Hazel Creek. Wolfie was doing his chimney routine and both Messrs. Miller and Siebeneich had discovered that the only person with drinking water was your obedient servant. I generously gave them a full Platypus bag and they drank copiously of its contents. Neither of them asked why I didn’t drink any of the same stuff and they didn’t say anything about its taste. Nevertheless, we continued the march up to the Sawdust Pile campground beyond the third bridge where we stopped again. I reconnoitered the stream for a few minutes and came back to see Jeffie and Wolfie talking to a girl. Aha! The pulchritudinous Lana, thought I, as I walked over to make her acquaintance. Of course, upon seeing me she quickly felt the need to retrace her steps back downstream. Obviously a girl of great self-discipline. We continued on to the Bone Valley campsite about 5.7 miles from the lake. There we established the Bone Valley Villa that we would use for the next two nights. We set up the camp. Miller had a one-man tent, and Wolfgang and I shared Wolfgang’s palatial abode. Then each of us went different directions – Jeffie making his way upstream on Hazel Creek, Wolfie headed downstream to work his way back up Hazel, while I began working my way up Bone Valley Creek. Caught a couple of small parr-marked rainbows out of one pool but nothing larger than about three inches. Wolfie met me a little ways up stream. He had a lot more success than I was having, and it was interesting just watching him cast. We fished a couple of hundred yards up Bone Valley before returning to the Villa in time for cocktails before dinner. More to come . . . — http://rwpatton.home.netcom.com/

Response:

God, people?!  How much milage can you milk out of a 3 inch fish conclave? One more post and you gents can apply to the Guiness clan. GG

Response:

God, people?!  How much milage can you milk out of a 3 inch fish conclave? One more post and you gents can apply to the Guiness clan. GG

George, if you have nothing nice to say about the Eastern ‘Claves, then BLOW ME! Op

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When last we met our fearsome threesome, they were standing on Owl Creek Bridge – oops, make that bridge no. 2 across Hazel Creek. Wolfie was doing his chimney routine and both Messrs. Miller and Siebeneich had discovered that the only person with drinking water was your obedient servant. I generously gave them a full Platypus bag and they drank copiously of its contents. Neither of them asked why I didn’t drink any of the same stuff and they didn’t say anything about its taste. Nevertheless, we continued the march up to the Sawdust Pile campground beyond the third bridge where we stopped again. I reconnoitered the stream for a few minutes and came back to see Jeffie and Wolfie talking to a girl. Aha! The pulchritudinous Lana, thought I, as I walked over to make her acquaintance. Of course, upon seeing me she quickly felt the need to retrace her steps back downstream. Obviously a girl of great self-discipline. We continued on to the Bone Valley campsite about 5.7 miles from the lake. There we established the Bone Valley Villa that we would use for the next two nights. We set up the camp. Miller had a one-man tent, and Wolfgang and I shared Wolfgang’s palatial abode. Then each of us went different directions – Jeffie making his way upstream on Hazel Creek, Wolfie headed downstream to work his way back up Hazel, while I began working my way up Bone Valley Creek. Caught a couple of small parr-marked rainbows out of one pool but nothing larger than about three inches. Wolfie met me a little ways up stream. He had a lot more success than I was having, and it was interesting just watching him cast. We fished a couple of hundred yards up Bone Valley before returning to the Villa in time for cocktails before dinner. More to come . . .

Hm…….well Bob, I think I still like my version better for raw excitement and suspense…….but I’ll grant you’ve got the edge in the verifiable historical detail department.       Carry on. Wolfgang who reserves the right to add color commentary from time to time.

Response:

"Wolfgang Siebeneich" wrote Hm…….well Bob, I think I still like my version better for raw excitement and suspense…….but I’ll grant you’ve got the edge in the verifiable historical detail department.       Carry on. Wolfgang who reserves the right to add color commentary from time to time.

Damn. If I’d known I was committing "verifiable historical detail" I’d have thought twice. After all, the real sense of the trip is not in the verifiable historical detail. It’s the wisps of vapor drifting herpetologically – yes, dammit, herpetologically – through the trees. Bob

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Wolfgang Siebeneich" wrote Hm…….well Bob, I think I still like my version better for raw excitement and suspense…….but I’ll grant you’ve got the edge in the verifiable historical detail department.       Carry on. Wolfgang who reserves the right to add color commentary from time to time. Damn. If I’d known I was committing "verifiable historical detail" I’d have thought twice. After all, the real sense of the trip is not in the verifiable historical detail. It’s the wisps of vapor drifting herpetologically – yes, dammit, herpetologically – through the trees. Bob

Yes……but…..still, tis the information age and historians as yet will merely be another turgid footnote. Wolfgang thus is it ever for those who serve the muse…….lana…….where art thou?      :(

Response:

Question:

boy what a way to ruin my enjoyment of fishing reports. Blah! Memphis Jim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Gang, I looked out the widow this morning and knew it was going to waaaaaay too nice not to head out and do some fishing. I checked the tides and the afternoon was the ticket, I could get out around 3:30, get the last few hours of incoming and then catch the first few hours of outgoing, the perfect tide. Did not have to go far in the Choptank to find the breaking fish everywhere. Got the long rod out and started catching. Most fish were 16-18, I did get a few keepers. I ran into a few other Tidal Fish guys, John T and Jimbo who joined in the action. After about an hour of that I decided to go hunt some bigger fish in shallow water. The perfect day for it, light breeze and air temp. I headed off in the Choptank and as soon as I pulled up and cast my fly I hooked up. Caught steady for about 2 1/2 hours working the shorelines, most fish were 14-17 inches. Then just as I was getting ready to work my way back in towards the Tred Avon I got a huge hit, the fly just stopped, I thought I was stuck on rocks, I looked down and it was about 2 feet deep, figured I caught a rock, then it pulled back, then an instant later the line goes free…..”Big Fish”, I say to myself. Make the same cast…strip..strip..strip..pause..BANG! I set the hook, feels like a good fish, but I figure it is a runt with a lot of energy, then like a freight train it takes off, I cleared the line and got him on the reel. After a good fight, some juggling and Rest of the report is posted at TidalFish.com (http://www.TidalFish.com) Exact URL to my report is:

http://www.tidalfish.com/boards2/viewthread.asp?forum=AMB_AP332285722… 15 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good Fishing!

Response:

Hi Gang, I looked out the widow this morning and knew it was going to waaaaaay too nice not to head out and do some fishing. I checked the tides and the afternoon was the ticket, I could get out around 3:30, get the last few hours of incoming and then catch the first few hours of outgoing, the perfect tide. Did not have to go far in the Choptank to find the breaking fish everywhere. Got the long rod out and started catching. Most fish were 16-18, I did get a few keepers. I ran into a few other Tidal Fish guys, John T and Jimbo who joined in the action. After about an hour of that I decided to go hunt some bigger fish in shallow water. The perfect day for it, light breeze and air temp. I headed off in the Choptank and as soon as I pulled up and cast my fly I hooked up. Caught steady for about 2 1/2 hours working the shorelines, most fish were 14-17 inches. Then just as I was getting ready to work my way back in towards the Tred Avon I got a huge hit, the fly just stopped, I thought I was stuck on rocks, I looked down and it was about 2 feet deep, figured I caught a rock, then it pulled back, then an instant later the line goes free

Question:

  I’m unsure of whether to head up to the Lake Tahoe area or the Southern Utah area in a week or two to do some flyfishing.  I’ve tried to find some up to date reports from those two areas on the internet but haven’t come up with anything helpful.  Does anybody know of any websites with up to date reports for those to specific areas?  I’m not interested in fishing in actually Lake Tahoe but the smaller resevoirs and streams around it (Martis Creek Resevoir, Spooner Lake, Truckee River)  and in Utah I’m interested in   the Beaver river and some of those smaller lakes in the south. Thanks for any help anybody can provide. Matthew —       Matthew W. Kaphan         Las Vegas, NV

Response:

For Truckee area fishing reports go to www.flyline.com   The reports are pretty accurate and are updated every day and provides alot of useful info. You can also call the Truckee River Outfitters-a local Fly Fishing Shop.  I don’t know their number, but google probably can get it for you. Good Luck Rob L

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I’m unsure of whether to head up to the Lake Tahoe area or the Southern Utah area in a week or two to do some flyfishing.  I’ve tried to find some up to date reports from those two areas on the internet but haven’t come up with anything helpful.  Does anybody know of any websites with up to date reports for those to specific areas?  I’m not interested in fishing in actually Lake Tahoe but the smaller resevoirs and streams around it (Martis Creek Resevoir, Spooner Lake, Truckee River)  and in Utah I’m interested in the Beaver river and some of those smaller lakes in the south. Thanks for any help anybody can provide. Matthew —       Matthew W. Kaphan         Las Vegas, NV

Response:

  I’m unsure of whether to head up to the Lake Tahoe area or the Southern Utah area in a week or two to do some flyfishing.  I’ve tried to find some up to date reports from those two areas on the internet but haven’t come up with anything helpful.  Does anybody know of any websites with up to date reports for those to specific areas?  I’m not interested in fishing in actually Lake Tahoe but the smaller resevoirs and streams around it (Martis Creek Resevoir, Spooner Lake, Truckee River)  and in Utah I’m interested in the Beaver river and some of those smaller lakes in the south. Thanks for any help anybody can provide. Matthew

I asked someone in a local Tahoe store last autumn about the fishing up there. Apparently you have to be very good at reading the water since the area is somewhat overfished. —       Matthew W. Kaphan         Las Vegas, NV

– Svend  1600 Amphitheatre Pkwy       Phone: (+1) 650 933 3618  Mountain View  California 94043  USA

Response:

The Truckee & Little Truckee get pounded pretty good, be prepared for slow fishing unless you can consider yourself expert.  These two rivers were some of the original Wild Trout programs in CA, along with Martis Lakw-They are C&R only,with barbless hooks or flies only allowed.  However, there are BIG FISH in these and other nearby waters.  Get the Truckee River acess map, and plan before you go. Rob L – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I asked someone in a local Tahoe store last autumn about the fishing up there. Apparently you have to be very good at reading the water since the area is somewhat overfished. —       Matthew W. Kaphan         Las Vegas, NV — Svend  1600 Amphitheatre Pkwy       Phone: (+1) 650 933 3618  Mountain View  California 94043  USA

Response:

The Truckee & Little Truckee get pounded pretty good, be prepared for slow fishing unless you can consider yourself expert.  These two rivers were some of the original Wild Trout programs in CA, along with Martis Lakw-They are C&R only,with barbless hooks or flies only allowed.  However, there are BIG FISH in these and other nearby waters.  Get the Truckee River acess map, and plan before you go. Rob L

Hi Rob. Are these fish comming up from Pyramide Lake ? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I asked someone in a local Tahoe store last autumn about the fishing up there. Apparently you have to be very good at reading the water since the area is somewhat overfished. —       Matthew W. Kaphan         Las Vegas, NV — Svend  1600 Amphitheatre Pkwy       Phone: (+1) 650 933 3618  Mountain View  California 94043  USA

– Svend  1600 Amphitheatre Pkwy       Phone: (+1) 650 933 3618  Mountain View  California 94043  USA

Response:

As far as I know they aren’t Pyramid Lake fish.  For an excellent resource on the Truckee and Pyramid, call the Truckee River Outfitters and ask one of their guy’s.  Some of them also work in their other shop in Reno and do guided trips and instruction in both areas.  They have always been forthcoming with good info. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are these fish comming up from Pyramide Lake ?

Response:

Hi, I am from France and have been fishing in southern Utah few times and I enjoyed uit very much the colorado river down stream Lake Powell is jsut wonderful have a look at : http://www.leesferry.com/ and there is also some great places where brown trouts are waiting for your fly have a good time , and feel free to ask further information if needed

Response:

Question:

I have 4 floating fly lines (DT5 and DT4 sizes) that have been on reels since they were last used in 1985.  They were never used very hard (maybe 2 to 3 weeks each year for about 5 years), and I would like to save them if I can.  I’m not sure of the manufacturer, but I know they were "premier" lines. My concerns are (1) they are dirty and will not float, and (2) they will have a permamnent "curly" set to the size of the spool.  Can they be salvaged (cleaned and straightened), and how?

Response:

I have 4 floating fly lines (DT5 and DT4 sizes) that have been on reels since they were last used in 1985.  They were never used very hard (maybe 2 to 3 weeks each year for about 5 years), and I would like to save them if I can.  I’m not sure of the manufacturer, but I know they were "premier" lines. My concerns are (1) they are dirty and will not float, and (2) they will have a permamnent "curly" set to the size of the spool.  Can they be salvaged (cleaned and straightened), and how?

I managed to save an old level sinking line that I found in my mum’s basement.  I had purchased the line in ‘70 and tried it a few times then wound it up in a skein and tossed it in a box.  When I found it, it was hopelessly kinked and dirty.  After repeated applications, this cheap line ended up looking new. I lated cut it up and used it for sinking heads. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

You could try washing them in plain soap and water, drying them, and coating them. 3M makes a nice line cleaning kit. You may be able to remove the curls by holding about 3-4 feet of  between your hands, pulling tightly, the taking the next 3-4 feet and repeating. Tim Lysyk – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My concerns are (1) they are dirty and will not float, and (2) they will have a permamnent "curly" set to the size of the spool.  Can they be salvaged (cleaned and straightened), and how?

Response:

there are a number of good line treatment products on the market that should help restore your line – Russ Peak’s Glide works well as does Gherke’s Pz. Apply a small amount to a clean soft cloth and run the line through the cloth several times under hand tension. Prior washing in mild soapy water and running through a moist cloth will remove a lot of dirt as well. recently I’ve found Scotch brand micro fibre cloths very effective for cleaning fly lines. RalphH – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have 4 floating fly lines (DT5 and DT4 sizes) that have been on reels since they were last used in 1985.  They were never used very hard (maybe 2 to 3 weeks each year for about 5 years), and I would like to save them if I can.  I’m not sure of the manufacturer, but I know they were "premier" lines. My concerns are (1) they are dirty and will not float, and (2) they will have a permamnent "curly" set to the size of the spool.  Can they be salvaged (cleaned and straightened), and how?

Response:

  Does a wf-3 work on the three forks rod, or does it do better with a 4wt?

I prefer a 3WF with my 3WT Three Forks rod. Some people (at least one, anyway) think that WF lines are a marketing scam, and that you’re a fool unless you buy a DT and cut it in half.

Response:

I prefer a 3WF with my 3WT Three Forks rod. Some people (at least one, anyway) think that WF lines are a marketing scam, and that you’re a fool unless you buy a DT and cut it in half.

Well, I ain’t no fool and I didn’t cut my DT in half.  I folded it over and can now cast two flies without using a dropper.  Hah!  Doesn’t load very well though.  Kinda gets stuck in the guides. Ya, know, sitting here, writing this, I think of those long nights around a campfire at a clave and trying to figure out who would jump up and try this after it was mentioned.  Okay, so that would mean you use a DT4 on a 8wt rod for it to load?  Who’s gonna be the first to make a fly rod with spinning rod guides so we can do this?  Why is Miami wearing those god-awful uniforms? Frank "Eggnog and Tequila" Reid Reverse email to reply

Response:

Well, I ain’t no fool and I didn’t cut my DT in half.  I folded it over and can now cast two flies without using a dropper.  Hah!  Doesn’t load very well though.  Kinda gets stuck in the guides. Ya, know, sitting here, writing this, I think of those long nights around a campfire at a clave and trying to figure out who would jump up and try this after it was mentioned.  

Sorry to hear that Frank. Okay, so that would mean you use a DT4 on a 8wt rod for it to load?  Who’s gonna be the first to make a fly rod with spinning rod guides so we can do this?  

One of Peter’s canons or a saltwater 10wt should be able to cope with a couple of 5wts.  or 3x 4’s on a 12 … or … Why is Miami wearing those god-awful uniforms?

Marketing.  Uniforms must change regularly for to maintain sales.   Occasionally (every other change of strip IME) someone gets it wrong, hence the god-awfulness. Frank "Eggnog and Tequila" Reid

Cripes, they must be if  they look bad after eggnog and tequila! Steve

Response:

  If you have any questions ask these guys they know what they are talking about. Zack  

Well, at least about ff. Russell

Response:

I live on a boat and my mom wrote a book of activities for kids to do while on the water. Needless to say, I do a lot of fishing.As for the my family’s domain name

And a fine one it is. Does your mom know you read ROFF? If I were 14, it would intimidate the heck out of me! — TL, Tim (Just between you and me, these guys aren’t NEAR as scary in person.)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s a web site for a boating activity book written for families who enjoy being on the water. Seems harmless to me. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com I dunno guys. . .  you were very gracious in your info.  But . . . Dave, what the helly are you talking about? The kid’s family has a  domain name… and? What’s so freaking sinister about that? Paranoia is alive and well, eh? — TL, Tim I live on a boat and my mom wrote a book of activities for kids to do while on the water. Needless to say, I do a lot of fishing.As for the my family’s domain name Alex

Alex, Sorry if I weirded you out with my prior post.  You just keep asking questions,  of anybody and everybody who will listen. That is how I tried to do it.  Still trying. . . many . . . many years beyond 14. BestWishes, DaveMohnsen Denver

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I live on a boat and my mom wrote a book of activities for kids to  do while on the water. Needless to say, I do a lot of fishing.As for  the my family’s domain name And a fine one it is. Does your mom know you read ROFF? If I were 14, it would intimidate the heck out of me!

What is ROFF? I have been trying to figure it out. Is it some kind of accronym? I acctualy have done a little Fly fishing with a cheap wal-mart set, but the level line is really hard to cast, and its a little heavy for small stream work. Does a wf-3 work on the three forks rod, or does it do better with a 4wt? Thanks, Alex

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Why is Miami wearing those god-awful uniforms? Frank "Eggnog and Tequila" Reid Cripes, they must be if  they look bad after eggnog and tequila! Steve

I’ve spewed better colors and I think I will again soon. Nighty nite – — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply

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Why is Miami wearing those god-awful uniforms? Frank "Eggnog and Tequila" Reid Cripes, they must be if  they look bad after eggnog and tequila! Steve I’ve spewed better colors and I think I will again soon.

*splork* Nighty nite –

hooroo Frank, 2:30 PM here and not a bad day weather wise. Steve

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I prefer a 3WF with my 3WT Three Forks rod. Some people (at least one, anyway) think that WF lines are a marketing scam, and that you’re a fool unless you buy a DT and cut it in half. Well, I ain’t no fool and I didn’t cut my DT in half.  I folded it over and can now cast two flies without using a dropper.  Hah!  Doesn’t load very well though.  Kinda gets stuck in the guides. Ya, know, sitting here, writing this, I think of those long nights around a campfire at a clave and trying to figure out who would jump up and try this after it was mentioned.  Okay, so that would mean you use a DT4 on a 8wt rod for it to load?  Who’s gonna be the first to make a fly rod with spinning rod guides so we can do this?  Why is Miami wearing those god-awful uniforms? Frank "Eggnog and Tequila" Reid Reverse email to reply

<splork! Russell Thinking perhaps Frank had done a few too many Full Reids.

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Hi, I am a 14 year old kid who has just bought a clearwater 3/4 reel, rio classic 3wt line, and am looking to get the much talked about Cabelas three forks 3wt. What i was wondering is: Is this a good outfit for a beginer who will be fishing mostly small sreams? Is the three forks rod a fast or slow action, and how much does it weigh? Any help would be much appreciated, Alex

Response:

Hi, I am a 14 year old kid who has just bought a clearwater 3/4 reel, rio classic 3wt line, and am looking to get the much talked about Cabelas three forks 3wt. What i was wondering is: Is this a good outfit for a beginer who will be fishing mostly small sreams? Is the three forks rod a fast or slow action, and how much does it weigh? Any help would be much appreciated, Alex

Hi Alex, from a collector and user of Three Forks rods, I highly recommend the 3 wt 3 piece..it’s a 7 footer and ought to be ideal for fishing small streams. I can’t tell you for sure what it weighs, but it is a light rod and one you can handle with no problem. I would class this rod in the medium action, maybe even a tad on the slow side of medium. In any event, how could you go wrong with a rod that costs 40 bucks?  If it turns out you are not happy with it, Cabela’s has a liberal return policy, so you really are risking nothing. All the guys here who have purchased and used the rod seem to be happy with it, including me. Good luck, and let us know how this works out for you. Frank Church Elkhart, IN

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Cabela’s Three Forks Fly Combo Model Length Pieces Weight Qty Price 763 7′6" 3 3  $49.99 805 8′ 2 5  $49.99 865 8′6" 2 5  $49.99 866 8′6" 2 6  $49.99 907 9′ 2 7  $49.99 908 9′ 2 8  $49.99

Response:

Hi, I am a 14 year old kid who has just bought a clearwater 3/4 reel, rio classic 3wt line, and am looking to get the much talked about Cabelas three forks 3wt. What i was wondering is: Is this a good outfit for a beginer who will be fishing mostly small sreams? Is the three forks rod a fast or slow action, and how much does it weigh? Any help would be much appreciated,

Based on what their web site says, it’s probably a medium to medium/slow rod.  That might be just what you want.  Or you might find your casting style tends toward a faster rod.  If you don’t like it, return it and try a faster one.  I would usually recommend a 4 wt. as the lightest beginners should try.  Lighter than that it starts getting hard to control the line because it’s so light.  For small streams, you’ll be making a lot of short 10-25 foot casts.  Remember that a rod is rated at about 30 feet of line in the air.  I recommend you get a spare spool (inexpensive for Clearwaters) and get a 4 wt line as well if you can afford it.  Then try both lines on the rod.  In any case, even if you return the rod for a different action or size, you’ll still be in good shape.  You’ll probably own another rod someday anyway if you stick with the sport

Response:

What is ROFF? I have been trying to figure it out. Is it some kind of accronym? I acctualy have done a little Fly fishing with a cheap wal-mart set, but the level line is really hard to cast, and its a little heavy for small stream work. Does a wf-3 work on the three forks rod, or does it do better with a 4wt? Thanks, Alex

The WF-3 line will do just fine on the Three Forks rod Alex, assuming you get the Three Forks 3 wt rod. There is a whole line of Three Forks rods, from 3 wt up thru 8 wt. You could overline the rod with a WF-4, but given the kind of fishing you’ll be doing, I don’t see the necessity of that. ROFF is the initials of the usenet group, Rec.Outdoors.Fishing.Fly, now do it make sense? Frank Church

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What is ROFF? I have been trying to figure it out. Is it some kind of accronym? I acctualy have done a little Fly fishing with a cheap wal-mart set, but the level line is really hard to cast, and its a little heavy for small stream work. Does a wf-3 work on the three forks rod, or does it do better with a 4wt? Thanks, Alex

The WF 3 should be fine on your 3wt rod.  Often, the older rods would be "over lined" with a heavier line to get the max benefit.  Most modern rods are matched to the line weight marked on them.  Keep it simple and keep the 3wt line. ROFF stands for Rec.Outdoors.Fishing.Fly, the newsgroup you are in.  You may also read about ROFFT, which is ROFF.tying or ABPF: alt.binaries.pictures.fishing. Welcome to the sport, your soul now belongs to the stream and your wallet to the tackle retailers. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply

Response:

Hi, I am a 14 year old kid who has just bought a clearwater 3/4 reel, rio classic 3wt line, and am looking to get the much talked about Cabelas three forks 3wt. What i was wondering is: Is this a good outfit for a beginer who will be fishing mostly small sreams? Is the three forks rod a fast or slow action, and how much does it weigh? Any help would be much appreciated, Alex

It is cool to see some other people around my age getting into the sport. I started when I was 13. I am now 16, and the same rod I bought then 7′6 3 wt Sage DS series I still am using, I have had numerous chances to buy another supposedly better rod, but there are way to many memories put into that rod. I am sure your first rod will be the same. Good luck in all your fishing. Stay with it at first and you will a fly fishing addict like the members of this post. If you have any questions ask these guys they know what they are talking about. Zack  

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s a web site for a boating activity book written for families who enjoy being on the water. Seems harmless to me. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com I dunno guys. . .  you were very gracious in your info.  But . . . Dave, what the helly are you talking about? The kid’s family has a  domain name… and? What’s so freaking sinister about that? Paranoia is alive and well, eh? — TL, Tim

I live on a boat and my mom wrote a book of activities for kids to do while on the water. Needless to say, I do a lot of fishing.As for the my family’s domain name Alex

Response:

Hi, I am a 14 year old kid who has just bought a clearwater 3/4 reel, rio classic 3wt line, and am looking to get the much talked about Cabelas three forks 3wt. What i was wondering is: Is this a good outfit for a beginer who will be fishing mostly small sreams? Is the three forks rod a fast or slow action, and how much does it weigh? Any help would be much appreciated, Alex

I bought the 7 1/2 foot three piece 3wt. a few months ago as a backup for a trip to North Carolina.  I haven’t actually fished with it yet, but I spent an hour or so test casting it side by side with a two piece St. Croix Legend Ultra in the same length and weight.  The Cabela’s rod definitely has a slower action, which is a considerable advantage when fishing a very short line.  The rod loads easier with twenty feet or less of line out.  With a moderate to long line….up to about fifty feet, I could detect no significant difference in performance.  For those who like to cast a really long line, and are able to, I suspect that the stiffer St. Croix will perform better, but that’s not what a short three weight is for anyway. The weight of this rod is not printed anywhere on the rod itself, and a glance at Cabela’s website didn’t turn up any information either.  But, aside from satisfying curiosity, the weight of a small rod like this one really isn’t much of an issue…..ALL short three weights are going to be VERY light. One serious shortcoming of this rod hasn’t been mentioned yet in this thread.  A number of people have mentioned that the reel seat has a tendency to come off.  As a matter of fact, the components for the reel seat are obviously cheap, and this is a serious drawback at least in terms of esthetics.  However, I believe that all those who have suffered this mishap were able to fix it pretty easily with a bit of epoxy. Good luck and let us know how it works for you. Wolfgang

Response:

Hi, I am a 14 year old kid who has just bought a clearwater 3/4 reel, rio classic 3wt line, and am looking to get the much talked about Cabelas three forks 3wt. What i was wondering is: Is this a good outfit for a beginer who will be fishing mostly small sreams? Is the three forks rod a fast or slow action, and how much does it weigh? Any help would be much appreciated, Alex

I dunno guys. . .  you were very gracious in your info.  But . . . Any 14 year old now days normally uses a spell checker better than us, and it is automatic, and they have better computers than most of us. . .when they were younger. Coincidence perhaps? Yeh . . .I guess so. But nice to know some of youse guys can be nice, DaveMohnsen Denver

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Hi, I am a 14 year old kid who has just bought a clearwater 3/4 reel,

    (considerate, thoughtful advice to newbie snipped) Good luck and let us know how it works for you. Wolfgang

    now, see there:  you *can* be a nice man! yfitons wayno  (but it ain’t like i’m gonna hold my breath waiting for the next exemplar…)

Response:

I dunno guys. . .  you were very gracious in your info.  But . . .

Dave, what the helly are you talking about? The kid’s family has a domain name… and? What’s so freaking sinister about that? –Steve

Response:

I dunno guys. . .  you were very gracious in your info.  But . . . Dave, what the helly are you talking about? The kid’s family has a domain name… and? What’s so freaking sinister about that?

Paranoia is alive and well, eh? — TL, Tim

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I dunno guys. . .  you were very gracious in your info.  But . . . Dave, what the helly are you talking about? The kid’s family has a domain name… and? What’s so freaking sinister about that? Paranoia is alive and well, eh? — TL, Tim

Heh . . .heh.  I guess you’re right.  Uh . . .and why are you watching my posts anyway? . . .Geesh they are everywhere! Dave (cripes . . .can’t even post on the internet anymore without people reading my drivel. ’spect we’ll even see surveillance cameras soon . . .I’ll keep looking to warn ya all . . .they’re comin’ I tell ya . . .they’re comin’ . . .sshhsh . . .quiet . . did you hear somethin’? . . .I think they are even in the ‘puters!)

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It’s a web site for a boating activity book written for families who enjoy being on the water. Seems harmless to me. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I dunno guys. . .  you were very gracious in your info.  But . . . Dave, what the helly are you talking about? The kid’s family has a domain name… and? What’s so freaking sinister about that? Paranoia is alive and well, eh? — TL, Tim

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I’ve fished lake with a worm and stuff from shore but this flyfishing thing sounds cool and I wanted to know how to get started.  You see Christmas is coming soon and I’ve been good this year.  I need to tell Santa what I want so he can check it once and check it twice.  What do I need to get started and how do I get started?  I don’t want a lump of coal in my sock this years. JA

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http://ezflyfish.com/outfits1.html

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve fished lake with a worm and stuff from shore but this flyfishing thing sounds cool and I wanted to know how to get started.  You see Christmas is coming soon and I’ve been good this year.  I need to tell Santa what I want so he can check it once and check it twice.  What do I need to get started and how do I get started?  I don’t want a lump of coal in my sock this years. JA

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I’ve fished lake with a worm and stuff from shore but this flyfishing thing sounds cool and I wanted to know how to get started.

Josh, someone already posted the link to where you can get the gear (ezflyfish.com), but here are some links to info which you might find helpful. http://www.flyanglersonline.com/ http://www.anglinguk.net/beginners/fly.htm http://www.iflyshop.com/flyfishing-beginners.htm http://www.flyanglersonline.com/begin/101/ http://www.fishin.com/sale/woodsandwaters/articles/fly-fish-beginners.ht m http://home.mcn.net/~n2trout/mff/flyfishi.htm http://www.flyshop.com/skills/ — Warren www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

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What might be the way to go, is to join you local fly fishing club, or hire the local fly fishing pro to take you fishing and see what gear is being used on your home waters.  What you buy will depend on what you are fishing for, how much money you want to invest, and personal tastes.   Padishar Creel — Hard not to suggest a rod or two for him…

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A good way to get started with quality yet low priced gear (IMHO) is to check out the rod combo’s at Cabelas (www.cabelas.com). For +- $100 you can get into a rod that you can fish for a few years, see if you like the sport and then upgrade. I would start with a 9′ 5wt. Its a nice all-purpose rod. Well, as close to all-purpose as one can get. I personally think 3 rods in the minimum. I have a 7′ 3wt for small water, a  9′ 5wt for bigger water and a 9′ 8wt for steelheadin’. Just my $.02, Randy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve fished lake with a worm and stuff from shore but this flyfishing thing sounds cool and I wanted to know how to get started.  You see Christmas is coming soon and I’ve been good this year.  I need to tell Santa what I want so he can check it once and check it twice.  What do I need to get started and how do I get started?  I don’t want a lump of coal in my sock this years. JA

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your local flyshop guy can help if you can tell him the kind/size fish you are going after and your budget…in my opinion, spend more on a rod and less on a reel…it is really your most important tool and makes a big difference…avoid the temptation to go too light…when I started fly fishing with some seriousness, I used a 6 weight Fenwick rod and a cheap reel.  It was a little heavy for the stream I was fishing, but it was an easy rod to learn to cast with.  My brother, Salvelinas Fontinalis, uses that rod now and is as happy about it as I was before he got his hands on it.  I’ve since bought more rods than you want to know and spend most of my streamside time with a Ted Knott bamboo rod, 4/5 weight, 7′, which has become a good friend.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A good way to get started with quality yet low priced gear (IMHO) is to check out the rod combo’s at Cabelas (www.cabelas.com). For +- $100 you can get into a rod that you can fish for a few years, see if you like the sport and then upgrade. I would start with a 9′ 5wt. Its a nice all-purpose rod. Well, as close to all-purpose as one can get. I personally think 3 rods in the minimum. I have a 7′ 3wt for small water, a  9′ 5wt for bigger water and a 9′ 8wt for steelheadin’. Just my $.02, Randy I’ve fished lake with a worm and stuff from shore but this flyfishing thing sounds cool and I wanted to know how to get started.  You see Christmas is coming soon and I’ve been good this year.  I need to tell Santa what I want so he can check it once and check it twice.  What do I need to get started and how do I get started?  I don’t want a lump of coal in my sock this years. JA

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Question:

There are some theories based on comparative analysis of DNA from rainbows native to this region versus that from rainbows native further north which point at them possibly being genetically the least changed and therefore the oldest. This is alluded to by Loev in his book "Flyfishing For Sharks."

Someone once told me that rainbow trout originated on the Pacific coast of Siberia. This guy is an outfitter on the Kamchatka Peninsula, so I took it with a grain of salt (bullshit detectors at work, Wayno , but it’s an interesting idea. I’m pretty sure that rainbows are native to Siberia, so there’s no reason they might not have originated there rather than in North America. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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I’m pretty sure that rainbows are native to Siberia, so there’s no reason they might not have originated there rather than in North America.

Rainbows originated in the North Pacific basin, along with cutts and Pacific salmon. They were first classified by a Swedish scientist studying fish from Kamchatka, but there is no real evidence that they actually evolved there.

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Someone once told me that rainbow trout originated on the Pacific coast of Siberia. This guy is an outfitter on the Kamchatka Peninsula, so I took it with a grain of salt (bullshit detectors at work, Wayno , but it’s an interesting idea. I’m pretty sure that rainbows are native to Siberia, so there’s no reason they might not have originated there rather than in North America.

The Russians certainly think this.  There are even some that think there’s evidence Oncorhynchus sp. as a group originated there.  The evidence is purely phenotypic, though, and they concede the evidence admits other possibilities.  Go to: http://www.psmfc.org/workshops/shconf98.html and scroll down to the last abstract, "The Diversity of Pacific Trouts in Kamchatkan Water Bodies". A "final" answer will probably have to await complete sequencing of the DNA from a number of native populations across the entire range of the species.  That’s no doubt a long way off.  There’s a lot of research being done on the genetics of rainbow trout (a complete nucleotide sequence for mitochondrial DNA was published in ‘95).  Much, probably most, of it is on hatchery and/or introduced populations rather than native ones. JR

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… a complete nucleotide sequence for mitochondrial DNA was published in ‘95) …

Datapoint – within each cell of a human, there is one strand of mitochondrial DNA and 23 pairs (46 strands) of nuclear DNA. For salmon/trout, there is again just one strand of mitochondrial DNA but anywhere from ~26 to 39 pairs of nuclear DNA. The mitochondrial DNA is interesting because it is passed down maternally, so it is useful for tracking lineage. It is also the case that it is only ~16,500 base pairs (roughly letters) long and not highly variable. Nuclear DNA (also called genomic or genetic DNA) on the other hand is passed down from both parents, is constantly mixed up in each individual, and is really the stuff that controls who/what each of us is and or could be. In humans, genetic DNA represents roughly 3 billion base pairs, and in salmon/trout, roughly 2.4 billion base pairs. Many fish studies to date have tried to draw conclusions from the easier-to-work-with mitochondrial DNA, but the really interesting results will come from an in-depth study of the nuclear DNA.  As of last year, the more advanced studies going on in the Columbia Basin were drawing conclusions based on 17/1000 of 1% of the nuclear DNA. Thomas Gilg

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Steelhead trout originated in Southern California … or points south in Mexico. San Diego county drainages had steelhead and salmon runs as late as the 1940’s. Recently, steelhead were discovered in San Mateo creek, just north of Camp Pendleton in San Diego county, and efforts are underway to return this stream to a viable steelhead fishery.  (A very uphill battle!) If you live in the San Diego/Orange County area and would like to participate in a ‘Camping/Cleanup" being conducted on September 8 and 9 (no fishing, strictly a habitat improvement mission), send me email and I’ll send you the details. FiddleAway

Response:

Steelhead trout originated in Southern California … or points south in Mexico.

?? JR

Response:

Steelhead trout originated in Southern California … or points south in Mexico. ??

At least when the last ice age retreated 10-13,000 years ago, there were ice sheets on both sides of the Columbia River, hence the Columbia is where salmon held over during the last ice age, and once the ice retreated, those salmon spread north and south to their current range. Going back in time, it would be interesting where else salmon many have "held over" and "originated". –tg

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Steelhead trout originated in Southern California … or points south in Mexico. ?? JR

There are some theories based on comparative analysis of DNA from rainbows native to this region versus that from rainbows native further north which point at them possibly being genetically the least changed and therefore the oldest. This is alluded to by Loev in his book "Flyfishing For Sharks." Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories Phone: (650)-857-5491               Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971          

Response:

There are some theories based on comparative analysis of DNA from rainbows native to this region versus that from rainbows native further north which point at them possibly being genetically the least changed and therefore the oldest. This is alluded to by Loev in his book "Flyfishing For Sharks."

That’s interesting. I’ll steal a glance at that section of the book on my next visit to Borders, if they haven’t gone and sold it yet. (Sorry, Rich). Still, even if southern stocks of native rainbows are the oldest, it doesn’t necessarily mean that those stocks were the first to adopt anadromy. FiddleAway:  Do folks know where the steelhead "discovered" in Mateo Creek came from?  Are they strays or what?  Also, if you haven’t yet seen it, you might be interested in: http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/species/steelhead/ JR

Response:

Michael McGuire There are some theories based on comparative analysis of DNA from rainbows native to this region versus that from rainbows native further north which point at them possibly being genetically the least changed and therefore the oldest. This is alluded to by Loev in his book "Flyfishing For Sharks."

One theory is that Colorado Cutts are the grandaddies of the west coast trout strains.  The theory is that seagoiong cutts migrated into the Sea of Cortez and down the east coast of Baja, when the latter had a much wetter climate. Eventually these strains migrated down around Cabo and up the Pacific Coast, becoming the Steelhead/Rainbows we know today. The sourthern steelhead eventually developed a tolerance for warmer waters and a life cycle that could tolerate their home streams not being open to the sea every year. As I said before, salmon and steelhead were caught in San Diego county through the 1940’s (maybe later).  There is currently a trout fishery in Mexico on the Pacific side of its central mountain range.  The Melling Ranch is a commercial outfit that caters to people who wish to try this fishery … these trout are not seagoing trout, however. Today, there are still a few steelhead that return to Malibu Creek just north of LA.  At one time, NMFS had set Malibu as the southernmost point for giving special protection status to the fishery.  They’ve balked at extending the protective unit as far as San Mateo creek on the border of Orange/San Diego county, but DNA evidence has shown the trout found there to be a unique strain of southern steelhead.  Not sure what the current legal status is.  I think NMFS is still dragging its heels, but local clubs and conservation associations are continuing to push for restoration of this fishery. Hence, the clean up. FiddleAway

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John Russell  wrote FiddleAway:  Do folks know where the steelhead "discovered" in Mateo Creek came from?  Are they strays or what?  Also, if you haven’t yet seen it, you might be interested in:

The folks I talked to pretty much subscribe to the theory I posted in another response. The study of the creek ensued after trout where caught in its upper reaches. Fin clippings from some 40 odd individuals showed that all of the trout were in the same, 2 year old, generation.  This fact correlated to a heavier winter, two years prior, that had opened up the mouth of the Creek to the ocean. DNA analysis ruled out any relation to stocked strains.  These were natural fish that chose to migrate into the creek from the ocean. FiddleAway

Response:

John Russell  wrote FiddleAway:  Do folks know where the steelhead "discovered" in Mateo Creek came from?  Are they strays or what?  Also, if you haven’t yet seen it, you might be interested in: The folks I talked to pretty much subscribe to the theory I posted in another response.

You’ll have to excuse me if I seem dense, but in your response to Michael (which is the only other one I’ve seen on my server, and I’m assuming is the one you mean), you only say that "DNA evidence has shown the trout found there to be a unique strain of southern steelhead."   The study of the creek ensued after trout where caught in its upper reaches. Fin clippings from some 40 odd individuals showed that all of the trout were in the same, 2 year old, generation.  This fact correlated to a heavier winter, two years prior, that had opened up the mouth of the Creek to the ocean. DNA analysis ruled out any relation to stocked strains.  These were natural fish that chose to migrate into the creek from the ocean.

So you’re saying that these are resident San Mateo rainbows that two years ago, for the first time in decades (or longer) migrated to sea–which is not at all impossible.  Or, in other words, that they are *not* strays from a neighboring population (either wild or stocked). Here’s the reason I asked (taken from the comments of the Southern California Steelhead Recovery Coalition to NMFS proposed extension of the S. Cal Steelhead ESU): "Although steelhead are known to have well-developed homing abilities (see P. B. Moyle, Inland fishes of California, [1976]), it is also known that southern steelhead commonly stray from their natal streams. This straying may be selectively advantageous because it would allow spawners to opportunistically utilize more favorable streams when their natal streams dried up or were blocked.  (See P. Higgins, Southern California Steelhead Recovery Assessment [1991]). An additional feature of southern steelhead is that they ‘miraculously’ reappeared in large spawning runs when flows became suitable in streams that had been dry or otherwise inaccessible during the previous one or more years. The implication is that streams within the historic range of the Southern California Steelhead ESU that are currently unoccupied may be rediscovered by steelhead at anytime. These unoccupied streams are likely to be discovered when habitat conditions in currently occupied streams are less favorable, indicating that all of the historical range of the Southern California Steelhead ESU is essential for the survival and recovery of this ESU." There’s a larger issue at stake here than the fate of the San Mateo population, as important as that is. JR

Response:

So you’re saying that these are resident San Mateo rainbows that two years ago, for the first time in decades (or longer) migrated to sea–which is not at all impossible.  Or, in other words, that they are *not* strays from a neighboring population (either wild or stocked).

No.  I haven’t heard of any evidence for that.  The DNA evidence shows that these trout are related to other southern steelhead. However, I’d be surprised if there aren’t at least anecdotal reports of people catching steelhead in San Mateo creek earlier in the century when all of the drainages in San Diego county were less impacted by development.  This would be consistent with the passage you quoted from the SCSRC. There’s a larger issue at stake here than the fate of the San Mateo population, as important as that is.

I agree, if you are talking about Southern Steelhead in general as the ‘larger issue’. FiddleAway

Response:

One theory is that Colorado Cutts are the grandaddies of the west coast trout strains.  … An interesting theory…I have not read that one.  

I haven’t either.  I have to admit, I am passing on information I got from someone I know who I take to be well informed on the subject. FiddleAway

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One theory is that Colorado Cutts are the grandaddies of the west coast trout strains.  The theory is that seagoiong cutts migrated into the Sea of Cortez and down the east coast of Baja, when the latter had a much wetter climate. Eventually these strains migrated down around Cabo and up the Pacific Coast, becoming the Steelhead/Rainbows we know today.

An interesting theory…I have not read that one.  My understanding is that the rainbow and cutthroat ancestral lines diverged perhaps as long ago as the Pliocene, and then each ancestral line diverged again to become the species/subspecies that we find today (redband and coastal rainbows and the various subspecies of cutts). Interestingly enough, the southernmost known species of salmonids occurring in watersheds that drain to the Pacific (the Mexican Golden Trout, Apache Trout, and Gila Trout) all appear to be more closely related to rainbows than to cutts.  I would expect the reverse to be true if Colorado River cutts represent the ancestral strain.

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At least when the last ice age retreated 10-13,000 years ago, there were ice sheets on both sides of the Columbia River, hence the Columbia is where salmon held over during the last ice age, and once the ice retreated, those salmon spread north and south to their current range. Going back in time, it would be interesting where else salmon many have "held over" and "originated".

Actually, there appear to have been perhaps 4 evolutionary lines of Rainbow (or Rainbow ancestors) in the Sea of Cortez during the four Pleistocene glacial maxima.  These evolutionary lines are thought to be the source of Apache trout, Gila trout, Mexican Golden trout, and several other unclassified strains (if not distinct species) in the Sierra Madre Occidental range in Mexico.

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Question:

Day Tripper writes: Did you learn The Handshake? The bonfire was a *great* idea. Was it Jo’s? ;^)

Yes, I learned the handshake.  It can be painful to pass on.  I’ve been trying since June to find a place to have a camp fire.  You know how they are up there about "kindled fires".  I asked Harry about it in August.  He’s the one that suggested a bonfire and easily got permission from every beaurocratic bimbo down the line.  The next morning the Roffian Navy reported smoke coming from the logs!   You are correct — a benchmark has been set.  But if PJ comes, I doubt the place will ever be the same. Dave LaCourse, Bottom Dweller

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Back from Maine Games with some miscellaneous ramblings… Awesome job, Dave. Ya done good. REAL good! Did you learn The Handshake? The bonfire was a *great* idea. Was it Jo’s? ;^) Seeing the boys catch 18" salmon and brookies on #24 flies that they tied themselves in the cabin was very cool. Eyes were a-poppin’ – they didn’t believe it could be done! The Rapid River was the star, and she done good. Having the water down was probably a blessing for the out-of-towners who wouldn’t know how to wade that river at 1200 cfs. We had no serious casualties (though I nearly broke my ass falling off a spillway while landing a nice salmon). I think 500-600 cfs was why. Even with the low flow the water temps held to the mid-60s, keeping the fish active and hardy. Sue and the staff get extra snaps for putting up with a bunch of fish, beer, and "other"-crazed flat landers. And speaking of beer: there’s nothing brewed in Canada that is as lip-smacking delicious as Wachusett Country Ale. Seeing Jeff tag some BIG fish on small flies was fun to watch. He almost broke his normally reserved demeanor ;^) A CFO under extreme duress sounds *way* prettier than a Bougle. Had the S4 well into triple digits on the way up and back. What a blast. Flying jets at tree-top level must feel like this. And that newly paved road to South Arm would be perfect for time trials. Maine was its awesome self, bringing every form of weather short of snow. Breaking sweats one day, freezing my toes off on the cabin floor the next morning. Thank god for dry kindling and a wood stove. There ought to be a whole bunch of pictures coming soon. Nearly everyone was snapping shots… The most beautiful and finest casting cane rod I’ve ever held was built by Dave Price. I kept thinking I *could* hide his body and steal that rod… I challenge anyone to find me a comfortable camp next to a blue ribbon trout stream, surrounded by majestic natural beauty, and with the quality and quality of food that is Lakewood Camps (http://www.lakewoodcamps.com) Dry fly fishing in the rain is surprisingly fun if you’re actually catching fish. And the Rapid held some of the most beautifully colored trout you’ll ever catch. I’ve been home for a couple of hours – had to mow the lawn at our camp in Cow Hampster – and I’m already sick of the job NBC is doing with the Olympic Games. This is going to be a long couple of weeks… Thank goodness my old friend Dave Bottom picked this week to finally make it to the Rapid (after way too many years of my trying to get him over there). He brought that little something extra that kept his cabin mates in smiles (and bailed out Fortenberry). Next time we have to get the other half of "The Ordeal Masters" to come, too! Snaps to Mike C for the rod that Dave B won in the raffle. Nice piece of work and a magnanimous gesture that had Dave beaming when he rigged up the rod and took it to the river… Best laugh of the week: in the midst of a spectacular thundering cloudburst that beat the tin dam building like a drum and turned us all into drowned bank rats, someone drops Bill Murray’s "Caddy Shack" line about "The hard stuff won’t arrive for a while yet"… Next year? Heck yeah! Forty better show for it, too. My hat (the one Steve gifted us all with – thanks, Steve! It’s a beaut!) is solidly tipped to you, Dave. Thanks for a well done job. And thanks to everyone that attended. I had a great time – and on my favorite water. An E Ticket outing, for sure /daytripper (The benchmark has been set…)

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Question:

-Does anyone have any info on a new disease appearing in Irish frmed salmon called Nervous Mortality Syndrome? Has it spread to any wild stock? Wild Fish First Socety C Mckee

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Actually, its a hangover.

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. sfeed.internetmci.com!news.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.dire c

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        I’ll second the Wekiva River Trip from Katie’s Landing.  Did that in a private boat last year with their shuttling….  Their’s is a good and responsible operation.  If you haven’t seen Florida rivers much this one’s a good intro.  I saw all the FL species of herons, plus limpkins, etc. on this run.         Joe P.

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If you want to drive a little further south (typically warmer as well) to North Palm Beach, you can rent Kayaks from The Adventure Times. They have regular guided tours to the Everglades and other local spots including intracoastal and ocean Call em at 407 881-7218 I’m going to be in Orlando the first week in January and am looking for paddling opportunities within say a 60 mile radius.  I won’t be taking a boat so I’m interested in outfitters or state parks that rent equipment. Thanks. Jason

Bob Denton President Gulf Stream International Boynton Beach, Florida Manufacturers of Sink the Stink The Water Sport Deodorizer That Really Works! For information on Boynton Beach, FL Scuba: http://www.flinet.com/gulfstream/scuba.html

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I go to the Cape Canaveral area often.  Fishing for redfish on the flats there is nice.  There is a non-powered only area north of 528 on the Bannanna river also.  You can rent from Extreme Sports, but they are not on the way, being about twenty south from the Cape.  Patrick AFB also rents to military types.  But all they have is small sit on tops.   If you want somethind exciting, the St Johns river, which runs from near the coast where I live, North through Deland.  The Manatees winter at Blue Springs by Deland.  They rent boats there. I’ve gone just North of lake Washington near the coast.  It is very small at that point, so all you will see is the occasional airboater.  The gators there are the biggest I’ve seen.  I fly helicopters for a living, so I’ve seen plenty.  They will probably be staying under the water in early Jan.  In late Feb, they are laying out.  Seeing them on the shore is not scary.  What is is when they shoot down the twenty foot wide stream right under your boat, leaving a wake like the Creature from the black lagoon. I will only take my big two person there, as my 14′ single might lead a big bull gator to think "Yea, I can take him".  

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I’m going to be in Orlando the first week in January and am looking for … Jason

PalnJones is right on with Wekiva.  This is a fantastic paddle (for Florida-no ww).  There is a Wekiva State Park & they rent canoes (not sure about kayaks) through a concessionaire (Kings Landings Canoe).   Kings Landing is the Place to put in and go to the Marina (I’ve been, I had my own kayak with me).  Fabulous river (for Florida).  There is a kayak/canoe/outdoor store in Orlando called something like Travel Country – in yellow pages under canoes – they can help with directions & maybe rentals.  It is 10-20 mile paddle depending where you go and the Kings Landing folks will run shuttle for you. kevin

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I’m going to be in Orlando the first week in January and am looking for paddling opportunities within say a 60 mile radius.  I won’t be taking a boat so I’m interested in outfitters or state parks that rent equipment.

Jason: I would second the recommendation David made about Wekiva Springs; just north of Orlando but literally a wilderness area along the edges of the city.  Wekiva State Park has a well stocked canoe livery and there is also a private company called Katies Wekiva River Landing that rents canoes.  Katies has routes of 6, 9, 12 or 19 miles.  I’ve hiked all along Wekiva and have seen the operation…very professional.  However, I personally have not taken the trips.  Never heard anything bad though.. Katies Info: Toll free from Orlando 628-1482      Other calls 407 332-4470 Ranger station Wekiwa River State Park    407 884-2009 If kayaking is your game, Travel Country Outdoors in Orlando 407 831-0777 does not rent anything but they do have a half day guided trip to Cape Canaveral NWR.  Another kayaking outfitter that does half-day guided trips (maybe rentals) is Agua Azul in Clearwater (near Tampa) 813 530-7555.  They have one trip "closer" to Orlando that is on the historic Hillsborough River out of the Tampa area.  It takes us 1.25 hours to get there from where we live near Disney.  My wife and I have done both of these trips and from a purely novice point of view had a GREAT TIME! Happy Holidays! Robert   Orlando

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I’m going to be in Orlando the first week in January and am looking for paddling opportunities within say a 60 mile radius.  I won’t be taking a boat so I’m interested in outfitters or state parks that rent equipment. Thanks. Jason

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I’m going to be in Orlando the first week in January and am looking for paddling opportunities within say a 60 mile radius.  I won’t be taking a boat so I’m interested in outfitters or state parks that rent equipment. Thanks. Jason

There is a nice flat water (what else would it be) paddle on the Wekiva River, putting on near Apopka.  The water is crystal clear, and we saw alligators (small) the time we did it. There is at least one canoe livery, but I don’t remember the name.  Check the Yellow Pages. David

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Question:

I’ve got the good luck to have 4-days near Evergreen CO in early August and am looking for suggestions on streams to stalk, catch and release. Don’t mind walking in a bit and I don’t need big name water or 18" fish to have fun – although 18" fish are… Anything within a reasonable 2-hour drive?  Thanks and let me know how to reciprocate for Wisconsin, if I can.

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The local fly shop in Evergreen is the Blue Quill Angler.  Same folks that run the Orvis Colorado Fly Fishing school, Rick Rishell runs it and his number 800-235-9763.  They would give you a very good idea as to what is going on there.  Bear Creek right in town was aggressively cleaned up and improved by the local TU chapter.  Behind the Amoco gas station a few years ago I caught a 18" rainbow.  Clear Creek along I-70 is pretty good too at Georgetown, that’s just up the road a few miles.  Those are great after work areas.  The South Platte river at Deckers is close to for a serious session of lots of fish.  Stop in at the fly shop in Deckers (Motel, gas pump, cafe/bar and fly shop setup, it is the town) and get the info on the current flies.  You can go North to Hot Sulphur Springs and hit the Colorado, great time of year for the Colorado.  Evergreen is a great place to get to lots of the famous gold medal water but the little streams right around town are really fun.  LOTS of water this year. — Ken Rupkalvis, THE Republic of Texas

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve got the good luck to have 4-days near Evergreen CO in early August and am looking for suggestions on streams to stalk, catch and release. Don’t mind walking in a bit and I don’t need big name water or 18" fish to have fun – although 18" fish are… Anything within a reasonable 2-hour drive?  Thanks and let me know how to reciprocate for Wisconsin, if I can.

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Question:

Just returned from the West Branch of the Ausable.  Your best bet is to stop in at Fran Better’s fly shop on Rt. 86 in Wilmington.  Last weekend he recommended a gray haystack dun and emerger as well as a Picket Finn.   Fishing was slow, but I managed to land a brookie and a few browns on those flies, which imitate the Isonychia.  Also saw lots of BWOs and both rusty and sulphur spinners in the evening.  Most of the action took place in the afternoon.

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I am looking for patterns to use on the Au sable river in NY state.   Any ideas, both dry and nymphs.  thanks. Luc Nocente — Luc Nocente

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