Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All that said they sure run well and only time will tell if all those moving parts really cause that much trouble. I suppose the timing belt is the big issue but I don’t see any dire warnings in my shop manual about crashed valves. From what I see the oil change is just the cost of the filter and a few bucks worth of oil (every 100 hours). Since I was burning over a pint of oil an hour that TCW3 adds up pretty fast. The reality is, if a fuel injected 2 stroke takes a crap offshore you probably ain’t fixin it either. I’ll take my chances. Being able to idle a mile up the canal and not stall in a cloud of smoke when I get close to the dock makes it all worthwhile. BTW Mercury 40-60 HPs are shipped "wet" and horizontal so leaking must not be a problem. Mine was ready to start when I opened the crate. What happens when you are 10 miles offshore and the timing belt breaks on one of these fancy new 4 strokes?  Do the valves get squashed? You may not have to mix oil with gas, but you have to change the oil and oil filter every so often.  How much will this cost?  Yamaha oil filters cost $25 to $35 a piece ! 4 strokes have more moving parts than 2 strokes – more parts to break and more expensive annual maintenance.  How much does a valve adjustment cost on one of these new 4 strokes? Many of the smaller (under 25 hp) 4 stroke outboards cannot be laid on their side because the oil sump is not sealed.  For someone like me who uses a portable 15 hp outboard on an inflatable which is deflated after every use, the 2 stroke is the only way to go.

I have a carbureted 2 stroke – no computer or electronics to crap out anytime.  7 years old and still going with only spark plug and lower gearcase lube changes.

Response:

Suzuki just came out with a 140 HP Four Stroke that weighs less than a 150 Two Stroke and has equal performance.  I think it was said earlier that you shouldn’t pull info out of your ass.  If you don’t know the facts, shut the F^ck up.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Even better,  a 2002  Yamaha 40 HP 2 stroke weights 194 lbs,  and a 2002 Yamaha 40 HP 4 stroke weights 181 lbs. In other words, the Yamaha 4 stroke weights 13 lbs. LESS than the Yamaha 2 stroke in the 40 HP motor. Try checking Yamaha’s web site and the specifications pages for their motors. Just bought one and I won’t be toting around that heavy 2 cycle oil anymore either. People need to check the web  sites of these manufacturers before they start throwing out fantasy figures about weight problems with 4 strokes.  (or of course just continue to  pull figures out of your ass)

Where do these weight figures come from – a brochure or website?  Ha !!  I trust those about as much as I trust Bill Clinton !!! I bet they weighed those 4 stroke motors dry. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s see, A Yamaha 50 2 stroke weighs 194 lbs. Mercury 50 2 stroke weighs 199 lbs. Mercury 50 4 stroke weighs 236 lbs. Honda 50 4stroke weighs 202 lbs. Not exactly 80 to 100 lbs.  In fact the Honda is a whopping 8 lbs heaver than the Yamaha and 3 lbs heaver than the Merc. Yes, it appears that 4 stroke engines are the future motor.  But keep in mind that 4 stroke are heavier than the old 2 stroke.  In the 40 to 50 hp they can range from 80 to over a 100 pounds more than the 2 stroke. Interesting fact that I did not know which I receive from an old boat and motor mechanic. If you have an older boat, let’s say in the era of 1985, the boat plate may say it will take up to a 45 hp engine.  These boats were rated for 2 stroke not 4 stoke as there were not many 4 strokes around then. Putting a 4 stroke on one of these older boats will take the rear weight up almost a 100 lbs.

Response:

Even better,  a 2002  Yamaha 40 HP 2 stroke weights 194 lbs,  and a 2002 Yamaha 40 HP 4 stroke weights 181 lbs. In other words, the Yamaha 4 stroke weights 13 lbs. LESS than the Yamaha 2 stroke in the 40 HP motor.

Interesting that on the same web page, the 4 stroke Yamaha 30 weighs 198 lb. My guess, the 4 stroke 40 is listed for 181 lb with short shaft, manual start, manual tilt. The 4 stroke 30 comes only with long shaft, electric start, power trim&tilt, same as the 2 stroke 40 hp. Mod.

Response:

I bet they weighed those 4 stroke motors dry.

Yup that 3 quarts of oil and 24 oz of 90w will really pack on the pounds. Me and the truck driver picked up my 60EFI Big Foot and it was still in the crate.

Response:

What happens when you are 10 miles offshore and the timing belt breaks on one of these fancy new 4 strokes?  Do the valves get squashed? You may not have to mix oil with gas, but you have to change the oil and oil filter every so often.  How much will this cost?  Yamaha oil filters cost $25 to $35 a piece ! 4 strokes have more moving parts than 2 strokes – more parts to break and more expensive annual maintenance.  How much does a valve adjustment cost on one of these new 4 strokes? Many of the smaller (under 25 hp) 4 stroke outboards cannot be laid on their side because the oil sump is not sealed.  For someone like me who uses a portable 15 hp outboard on an inflatable which is deflated after every use, the 2 stroke is the only way to go. For most weekend boaters, the 2 stroke outboard is the more long term economic choice even if gas costs $2.50 per gallon. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

All that said they sure run well and only time will tell if all those moving parts really cause that much trouble. I suppose the timing belt is the big issue but I don’t see any dire warnings in my shop manual about crashed valves. From what I see the oil change is just the cost of the filter and a few bucks worth of oil (every 100 hours). Since I was burning over a pint of oil an hour that TCW3 adds up pretty fast. The reality is, if a fuel injected 2 stroke takes a crap offshore you probably ain’t fixin it either. I’ll take my chances. Being able to idle a mile up the canal and not stall in a cloud of smoke when I get close to the dock makes it all worthwhile. BTW Mercury 40-60 HPs are shipped "wet" and horizontal so leaking must not be a problem. Mine was ready to start when I opened the crate. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -What happens when you are 10 miles offshore and the timing belt breaks on one of these fancy new 4 strokes?  Do the valves get squashed? You may not have to mix oil with gas, but you have to change the oil and oil filter every so often.  How much will this cost?  Yamaha oil filters cost $25 to $35 a piece ! 4 strokes have more moving parts than 2 strokes – more parts to break and more expensive annual maintenance.  How much does a valve adjustment cost on one of these new 4 strokes? Many of the smaller (under 25 hp) 4 stroke outboards cannot be laid on their side because the oil sump is not sealed.  For someone like me who uses a portable 15 hp outboard on an inflatable which is deflated after every use, the 2 stroke is the only way to go.

Response:

One exception.  Why can’t I buy a pair of 4-stroke 150s or 175s  to replace my aging Yamahas??? pontificated: # Hello Enn, # # Thanks for the info.

My guess is this: the purveyors of such possibilities don’t yet see the market willing to pay the excessive premium they charge for their higher horsepower four stroke engines. Relative to what they’d like to charge for a four stroke 175, the two strokes of that power are inexpensive. The guys who are buying the 200-225 four strokers don’t seem to mind giving away the excessive bucks. — Harry Krause – - A red is any son-of-a-bitch who wants thirty cents when we’re paying twenty five. – John Steinbeck

Response:

Yes, it appears that 4 stroke engines are the future motor.  But keep in mind that 4 stroke are heavier than the old 2 stroke.  In the 40 to 50 hp they can range from 80 to over a 100 pounds more than the 2 stroke. Interesting fact that I did not know which I receive from an old boat and motor mechanic. If you have an older boat, let’s say in the era of 1985, the boat plate may say it will take up to a 45 hp engine.  These boats were rated for 2 stroke not 4 stoke as there were not many 4 strokes around then. Putting a 4 stroke on one of these older boats will take the rear weight up almost a 100 lbs.

Response:

Let’s see, A Yamaha 50 2 stroke weighs 194 lbs. Mercury 50 2 stroke weighs 199 lbs. Mercury 50 4 stroke weighs 236 lbs. Honda 50 4stroke weighs 202 lbs. Not exactly 80 to 100 lbs.  In fact the Honda is a whopping 8 lbs heaver than the Yamaha and 3 lbs heaver than the Merc. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, it appears that 4 stroke engines are the future motor.  But keep in mind that 4 stroke are heavier than the old 2 stroke.  In the 40 to 50 hp they can range from 80 to over a 100 pounds more than the 2 stroke. Interesting fact that I did not know which I receive from an old boat and motor mechanic. If you have an older boat, let’s say in the era of 1985, the boat plate may say it will take up to a 45 hp engine.  These boats were rated for 2 stroke not 4 stoke as there were not many 4 strokes around then. Putting a 4 stroke on one of these older boats will take the rear weight up almost a 100 lbs.

Response:

A hundred pounds out there on the end of that 12 inch jackplate on that Gambler is a little different than a gas tank in the middle of the boat.  That 4 stroke won’t work very well if it is underwater.  

Del, on the other hand, the guy with that setup doesn’t think twice about putting 200 lbs. of batteries right up against the transom, nor does he hesitate to hit the fill switch on his livewell, adding another 200 lbs. of water to the rear third of the boat.  Moving one battery forward will largely offset the penalty of a heavier motor. — Rich Stern www.nitroowners.com – The Nitro and Tracker Owners Web Site www.mypontoon.com – The Pontoon Boat Web Site

Response:

Even better,  a 2002  Yamaha 40 HP 2 stroke weights 194 lbs,  and a 2002 Yamaha 40 HP 4 stroke weights 181 lbs. In other words, the Yamaha 4 stroke weights 13 lbs. LESS than the Yamaha 2 stroke in the 40 HP motor. Try checking Yamaha’s web site and the specifications pages for their motors. Just bought one and I won’t be toting around that heavy 2 cycle oil anymore either. People need to check the web  sites of these manufacturers before they start throwing out fantasy figures about weight problems with 4 strokes.  (or of course just continue to  pull figures out of your ass) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s see, A Yamaha 50 2 stroke weighs 194 lbs. Mercury 50 2 stroke weighs 199 lbs. Mercury 50 4 stroke weighs 236 lbs. Honda 50 4stroke weighs 202 lbs. Not exactly 80 to 100 lbs.  In fact the Honda is a whopping 8 lbs heaver than the Yamaha and 3 lbs heaver than the Merc. Yes, it appears that 4 stroke engines are the future motor.  But keep in mind that 4 stroke are heavier than the old 2 stroke.  In the 40 to 50 hp they can range from 80 to over a 100 pounds more than the 2 stroke. Interesting fact that I did not know which I receive from an old boat and motor mechanic. If you have an older boat, let’s say in the era of 1985, the boat plate may say it will take up to a 45 hp engine.  These boats were rated for 2 stroke not 4 stoke as there were not many 4 strokes around then. Putting a 4 stroke on one of these older boats will take the rear weight up almost a 100 lbs.

Response:

So, what is your explanation of why there are no 150-175 HP 4strokes? del cecchi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Even better,  a 2002  Yamaha 40 HP 2 stroke weights 194 lbs,  and a 2002 Yamaha 40 HP 4 stroke weights 181 lbs. In other words, the Yamaha 4 stroke weights 13 lbs. LESS than the Yamaha 2 stroke in the 40 HP motor. Try checking Yamaha’s web site and the specifications pages for their motors. Just bought one and I won’t be toting around that heavy 2 cycle oil anymore either. People need to check the web  sites of these manufacturers before they start throwing out fantasy figures about weight problems with 4 strokes.  (or of course just continue to  pull figures out of your ass) Let’s see, A Yamaha 50 2 stroke weighs 194 lbs. Mercury 50 2 stroke weighs 199 lbs. Mercury 50 4 stroke weighs 236 lbs. Honda 50 4stroke weighs 202 lbs. Not exactly 80 to 100 lbs.  In fact the Honda is a whopping 8 lbs heaver than the Yamaha and 3 lbs heaver than the Merc. Yes, it appears that 4 stroke engines are the future motor.  But keep in mind that 4 stroke are heavier than the old 2 stroke.  In the 40 to 50 hp they can range from 80 to over a 100 pounds more than the 2 stroke. Interesting fact that I did not know which I receive from an old boat and motor mechanic. If you have an older boat, let’s say in the era of 1985, the boat plate may say it will take up to a 45 hp engine.  These boats were rated for 2 stroke not 4 stoke as there were not many 4 strokes around then. Putting a 4 stroke on one of these older boats will take the rear weight up almost a 100 lbs.

Response:

I imagine bass boat guys will show up at the 4 stroke dealer when their bans 2 strokes on the lakes. I hope the manufacturers are ready for them.

Response:

| says… | | One exception.  Why can’t I buy a pair of 4-stroke 150s or 175s  to | replace my aging Yamahas??? | | pontificated: | | # Hello Enn, | # | # Thanks for the info. | | | | — | 23′ Grady White, out of Oak Island, NC. | To Mail – Remove the Bee Bees from my address. | | ______ | Posted Via Binaries.net = SPEED+RETENTION+COMPLETION = | http://www.binaries.net | | Because the biggest market for 150 to 175 hp is Bass Boats and a 4 | stroke 150/175 would be too heavy? | | del cecchi | | | | I think this whole over blown ,over weight thing goes out the window as | soon as you load up your coolers full of beer and and extra friend nad | top off the gas tank!! | | I remember buying a 14speed bike (with a 3lb frame) and weighing | everythin in grams to be real light. As soon as I filled my water | bottles, that theory went out the window!! A hundred pounds out there on the end of that 12 inch jackplate on that Gambler is a little different than a gas tank in the middle of the boat.  That 4 stroke won’t work very well if it is underwater.   — Del Cecchi   Personal Opinions Only

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One exception.  Why can’t I buy a pair of 4-stroke 150s or 175s  to replace my aging Yamahas??? pontificated: # Hello Enn, # # Thanks for the info. — 23′ Grady White, out of Oak Island, NC. To Mail – Remove the Bee Bees from my address.

______ Posted Via Binaries.net = SPEED+RETENTION+COMPLETION =

http://www.binaries.net Because the biggest market for 150 to 175 hp is Bass Boats and a 4 stroke 150/175 would be too heavy? del cecchi

Response:

says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One exception.  Why can’t I buy a pair of 4-stroke 150s or 175s  to replace my aging Yamahas??? pontificated: # Hello Enn, # # Thanks for the info. — 23′ Grady White, out of Oak Island, NC. To Mail – Remove the Bee Bees from my address. ______ Posted Via Binaries.net = SPEED+RETENTION+COMPLETION = http://www.binaries.net Because the biggest market for 150 to 175 hp is Bass Boats and a 4 stroke 150/175 would be too heavy? del cecchi

I think this whole over blown ,over weight thing goes out the window as soon as you load up your coolers full of beer and and extra friend nad top off the gas tank!! I remember buying a 14speed bike (with a 3lb frame) and weighing everythin in grams to be real light. As soon as I filled my water bottles, that theory went out the window!!

Response:

Hello Enn, Thanks for the info. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Same in all European countries. Hi All, I just read a good article in the latest issue of "Saltwater Flyfishing" magazine by veteran outdoor writer Bob Stearns. He states that 2 stroke motors are on the way out and that 4 strokes are going to be taking over the US market. I know this will be the fact in the United States but I can’t say much about other countries. Keep this in mind when buying a used or new boat. — Bill Kiene

Response:

Same in all European countries. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I just read a good article in the latest issue of "Saltwater Flyfishing" magazine by veteran outdoor writer Bob Stearns. He states that 2 stroke motors are on the way out and that 4 strokes are going to be taking over the US market. I know this will be the fact in the United States but I can’t say much about other countries. Keep this in mind when buying a used or new boat. — Bill Kiene

Response:

Hi All, I just read a good article in the latest issue of "Saltwater Flyfishing" magazine by veteran outdoor writer Bob Stearns. He states that 2 stroke motors are on the way out and that 4 strokes are going to be taking over the US market. I know this will be the fact in the United States but I can’t say much about other countries. Keep this in mind when buying a used or new boat. — Bill Kiene

Response:

Question:

George Personally, I’m not interested in seeing his fly even from a distant.  Like to see the flly fishing lure he tied though.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – DAVE MARTEL Show off! Only if we get to see a close up picture of his fly.

Response:

Lou, did you also have shoes worn so thin that you could step on a time and tell whether it was heads or tails?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You had buggies, boots, socks and pen knifes?  I had to walk to school for 2 miles and it was uphill both ways.  Was it the same for you?  Our town was so poor we had to take turns being the village idiot. Lou Gee Dad, I love it when you talk about the olden days. …anytime son…say, did I ever tell you about the time at age7 when I had to walk to school in a raging blizzard because our horse drawn school buggy blew a buggy wheel?  No?  And all this wearing my knee length *knickers, argyle knee socks and little boots with a knife pocket on the side. Damn, them were the good old days! Gramps *and these were corduroy so that when you walked they would go  whip whip whip whip…..!

Response:

Ah, what is the prize for the procrastinator extraordinaire?  You will have them just before Midnight on the day they be due…as is my taxes regardless of the amount of the return. Chris Fanning — I have a LP siding claim awarded in 1998, just got to send it in for the $$$$

Response:

Sparkle Caddises. Hans – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – DAVE MARTEL Ladies and gentleman, Dave Martel is first in with his GFS2002 box of flies, and a finer hatch of Sparkle Caddises (Caddi?) I have never seen. This is like one of those "unadvertised specials" you occasionally see, because for being first Dave will receive a little something extra in his return box of flies. Not much mind you, but something he can probably use at his flytying table. Nice going Dave, and nice flies. All right, Martel, that does it!  You promised if I tied your flies for you, you wouldn’t send them in until I finished my own as well.  Sheesh. JR

Response:

Lou, did you also have shoes worn so thin that you could step on a time and tell whether it was heads or tails? You had buggies, boots, socks and pen knifes?  I had to walk to school for 2 miles and it was uphill both ways.  Was it the same for you?  Our town was so poor we had to take turns being the village idiot. Lou

Sheesh!  First liar ain’t got a chance. :-/ Frank (horseapples in Elkhart) Church

Response:

Ah, what is the prize for the procrastinator extraordinaire?  You will have them just before Midnight on the day they be due…as is my taxes regardless of the amount of the return.

Um, how about a stool sample from Guts catbox?    :-)  :-) BTW, this cat has the prettiest, silkiest and softest belly hair of any cat I’ver ever had, there ought to be something I can use it for..?? Frank (I love my pussy) Church

Response:

Guys;   Actually–I do clap erasers–I’m a teacher–and yes–I DID have book reports in before they were due–you guys got me pegged pretty well.

I was always in favor of the all nighter. 0 out of 40 for me. Maybe I’ll decide what to tie sometime soon. Willi

Response:

SNIP free time.  :-) Joe F. (pretty well on pace with 1 1/45 fly per day)

I was on track until I figured out that I had the deer hair in backwards (sorry Joe.) Jeff

Response:

You had buggies, boots, socks and pen knifes?  I had to walk to school for 2 miles and it was uphill both ways.  Was it the same for you?  Our town was so poor we had to take turns being the village idiot. Lou

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gee Dad, I love it when you talk about the olden days. …anytime son…say, did I ever tell you about the time at age7 when I had to walk to school in a raging blizzard because our horse drawn school buggy blew a buggy wheel?  No?  And all this wearing my knee length *knickers, argyle knee socks and little boots with a knife pocket on the side.  Damn, them were the good old days! Gramps *and these were corduroy so that when you walked they would go  whip whip whip whip…..!

Response:

DAVE MARTEL Ladies and gentleman, Dave Martel is first in with his GFS2002 box of flies,

Warmest congratulations David. George Gehrke

Response:

DAVE MARTEL

Show off!

Response:

Dave was probably one of those annoying kids in grade school who turned in his book reports a week before they were due!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – DAVE MARTEL Show off!

Response:

DAVE MARTEL Show off!

Only if we get to see a close up picture of his fly.

Response:

DAVE MARTEL Ladies and gentleman, Dave Martel is first in with his GFS2002 box of flies, and a finer hatch of Sparkle Caddises (Caddi?) I have never seen. This is like one of those "unadvertised specials" you occasionally see, because for being first Dave will receive a little something extra in his return box of flies. Not much mind you, but something he can probably use at his flytying table. Nice going Dave, and nice flies.

All right, Martel, that does it!  You promised if I tied your flies for you, you wouldn’t send them in until I finished my own as well.  Sheesh.   JR

Response:

Dave was probably one of those annoying kids in grade school who turned in his book reports a week before they were due!

……and volunteered to clean the blackboard *and* clap the erasers! 24 down 17 to go Swapmeister

Response:

Guys;   Actually–I do clap erasers–I’m a teacher–and yes–I DID have book reports in before they were due–you guys got me pegged pretty well.   Had to get these in quickly–I’m in several other swaps right now–and I didn’t want to be the guy with egg all over my face for forgetting to get them in.   I tie flies for relaxation–and I gotta tell you–some days after teaching rowdy 8th graders all day–I *need* to tie flies to relax. Have a great day, everybody.   Dave M

Response:

Only if we get to see a close up picture of his fly.

I KNEW he was from the other team….

Response:

Gee Dad, I love it when you talk about the olden days. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ……and volunteered to clean the blackboard *and* clap the erasers! Swapmeister

Response:

Dave was probably one of those annoying kids in grade school who turned in his book reports a week before they were due! ……and volunteered to clean the blackboard *and* clap the erasers! 24 down 17 to go Swapmeister

chastened in Elkhart

Response:

  I tie flies for relaxation–and I gotta tell you–some days after teaching rowdy 8th graders all day–I *need* to tie flies to relax. Have a great day, everybody.

Good Lord — I have to relax after teaching college students for three hours a day.  If I was teaching eighth graders, I would be relaxing with a

Question:

BTW, why not include the arbor knot? You have to attach the backing to the spool somehow. Yeah, but the guys at Orvis do that one.

They probably tie your needle knots, too. How many other people in ROFF have been streamside with a supposedly experienced flyfisherman who, when it came time to tie on a leader, had no idea how to do it? The clinch knot and nail knot both can be replaced by the Uni knot if you like.

But EVERY knot can be replaced by the clinch knot. Just ask Wayno if he ever reappears. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

How many other people in ROFF have been streamside with a supposedly experienced flyfisherman who, when it came time to tie on a leader, had no idea how to do it?

This has happened to me numerous times.  Also, many people apparently change their ( looped ),leaders at an amazing rate, because they are unable to even tie tippet on.   If you have enough time and money I don

Question:

I’m in with a variation of the wet McGinty my favorite bluegill fly.      Jim Robinson * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Frank Church writes:

(snip) This could get interesting.

The timing is a little off.  Fishing season starts next week (for me) in Maine for a month.  I won’t have time to tie, but I can come up with 12 flies (all of them catchers of trout) from my fly box.  They ain’t presentation flies, but they catch fish.  Count me in, Frank. Dave LaCourse

Response:

Count me in too, Frank.  Sounds like fun. I would appreciate a little info about how to use the fly as well, i.e. how to fish it, for what species, etc. Pat K

enough – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -interest is shown I will serve as swapmeister.  

Response:

You touch a sensitive point here. Isn’t it remarkable that flies you intend to give away have to meet much higher standards than the flies you fish with? Suddenly the flies you put all your trust in at the water aren’t good enough to pass on to somebody else. So why not tie them ‘presentable’ in the first place? Same problem here.. I intend to tie CDC & Elk’s #14 for the swap, have plenty in my box, but I allready know I’ll tie 12 new, immaculate ones. Herman Frank Church writes: (snip) This could get interesting. The timing is a little off.  Fishing season starts next week (for me) in Maine for a month.  I won’t have time to tie, but I can come up with 12 flies (all of them catchers of trout) from my fly box.  They ain’t presentation flies, but they catch fish.  Count me in, Frank. Dave LaCourse

–         Cheers, Herman         Herman Nijland         Daytime webmaster         Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

OK Ope, your in.  With Pat and Dave LaCourse, we have 9 now.  Stay tuned and we’ll see if we can get the minimum 12 (or more, why not?) Frank Church – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Frank, Count me in.  I don’t tie very well yet, but the flys I have tied, especially my nymphs, catch trout.  I’ll do my best to not disappoint the tie masters! Opie

Response:

OK folks, I hadn’t planned to volunteer for a fly swap but if enough interest is shown I will serve as swapmeister. Watch out for the whiners who don’t get Mike Connor’s flies–and be prepared to eat the postage costs –Steve

Screw the whiners, and those that send flies without postage..guess what…*I* get to keep their flies! Frank Church

Response:

It’s probably not a big deal to have "doubles" in the swap, ie: 2 guys tying the same flies, but it would be nice if everyone got a complete mix of flies.  So how about if those who want to join in the swap indicate to me on or off list what fly you intend to tie. When this thing jells (or not) next Thursday, I will publish a complete list of the tiers and what they intend to tie. Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF RETIRED

I intend to tie  CDC & Elk’s #14 for the swap, have plenty in my box, but I allready know – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’ll tie 12 new, immaculate ones. Herman

Response:

Count me in Frank, post the details at your convenience.                             Tom Littleton

Response:

OK Paul, you’re on the list. Frank Church – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am still a fairly new fly tier but this sound very interesting .  Please add my name to the list and let me know what happens.

Response:

Frank, Count me in.  I don’t tie very well yet, but the flys I have tied, especially my nymphs, catch trout.  I’ll do my best to not disappoint the tie masters! Opie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK folks, I hadn’t planned to volunteer for a fly swap but if enough interest is shown I will serve as swapmeister. Watch out for the whiners who don’t get Mike Connor’s flies–and be prepared to eat the postage costs –Steve

Response:

Steve Z OK folks, I hadn’t planned to volunteer for a fly swap but if enough interest is shown I will serve as swapmeister. Watch out for the whiners who don’t get Mike Connor’s flies–and be prepared to eat the postage costs –Steve

Every time I tied on a MC fly in NC, I caught a trout.  Great ties.  I have found that if you complain, just a little, you won’t have to eat the postage costs. <g Dave,  regularly fed on "postage costs". d;0)

Response:

As mentioned in a previous post, I have participated in a few fly swaps a fly swap or two during the year?  Winter is a good time for most of us that live in cold country, and are probably at the tying bench anyway.  As a newbie flytyer, I found this a good way to acquire some really well tied flies, and moved me to get at the vise and tie, tie, tie. (read learn, learn, learn)  Several fly swaps, each with a different "swapmeister", say a warmwater swap, and one for trout.  The number of people signing up for a swap would determine how many flies you would tie, and you would receive the same number. How about some feedback folks, how many would be interested in participating in a venture of this nature? Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF RETIRED

Response:

Frank, Count me in. I hosted the last swap on ROFF, somewhere last year, and the number of participants was quite low compared to the number of regulars over here. Hope this one will be different. What _might_ work is a favourite simple fly swap? The thing you tie on when you haven’t got a clue what’s working, the ‘looks like shit but catches an uncanny amout of fish’fly, the ‘I can tie these with my eyes closed, a bottle of Lagavullin’ down the hatch and still outfish anyone’fly? Cheers, Herman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As mentioned in a previous post, I have participated in a few fly swaps a fly swap or two during the year?  Winter is a good time for most of us that live in cold country, and are probably at the tying bench anyway.  As a newbie flytyer, I found this a good way to acquire some really well tied flies, and moved me to get at the vise and tie, tie, tie. (read learn, learn, learn)  Several fly swaps, each with a different "swapmeister", say a warmwater swap, and one for trout.  The number of people signing up for a swap would determine how many flies you would tie, and you would receive the same number. How about some feedback folks, how many would be interested in participating in a venture of this nature? Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF RETIRED

– Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

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How about some feedback folks, how many would be interested in participating in a venture of this nature?

Count me in Frank.  I’d say let’s start asap, but I am still tying my donations to the western raffle.  Although a few more wouldn’t hurt. . . — Warren Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html Before you buy.

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…What _might_ work is a favourite simple fly swap? The thing you tie on when you haven’t got a clue what’s working, the ‘looks like shit but catches an uncanny amout of fish’fly,…..

I happen to have one of those, Herman.  And I even have recent witnesses as to it’s efficacy.  Count me in.

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Are you sure those witnesses weren’t influenced by the ‘recreational herbs’ as Ken put it? Herman …What _might_ work is a favourite simple fly swap? The thing you tie on when you haven’t got a clue what’s working, the ‘looks like shit but catches an uncanny amout of fish’fly,….. I happen to have one of those, Herman.  And I even have recent witnesses as to it’s efficacy.  Count me in.

– Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

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Are you sure those witnesses weren’t influenced by the ‘recreational herbs’ as Ken put it?

Doesn’t matter, really.  Herbs are widely available; no reason we can’t repeat the recipe whenever needed.

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Now you’re making me curious.. so this swap has to succeed, no matter what. We’re still talking about flies, right? Are you sure those witnesses weren’t influenced by the ‘recreational herbs’ as Ken put it? Doesn’t matter, really.  Herbs are widely available; no reason we can’t repeat the recipe whenever needed.

– Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

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Now you’re making me curious.. so this swap has to succeed, no matter what. We’re still talking about flies, right?

Huh?  Flies?    :) O.K. Yes, we are talking about flies.  I was introduced to a pattern called a Pass Lake by the Malignant Dwarf many years ago.  Clipped mallard flank tail, fine black chenille for the body, a couple of turns of brown hackle swept back, and a white calf tail wing trude style.  This bug resembles nothing that ever lived in a stream or a lake and it has a perverse tendency to sink when you want it to float and vice versa.  Doesn’t matter much though because it consistently takes fish either way.  Trout and blue gills love it.  Herbs are optional, season to taste.

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I’d be in for a "favorite" flyswap. Willi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As mentioned in a previous post, I have participated in a few fly swaps a fly swap or two during the year?  Winter is a good time for most of us that live in cold country, and are probably at the tying bench anyway.  As a newbie flytyer, I found this a good way to acquire some really well tied flies, and moved me to get at the vise and tie, tie, tie. (read learn, learn, learn)  Several fly swaps, each with a different "swapmeister", say a warmwater swap, and one for trout.  The number of people signing up for a swap would determine how many flies you would tie, and you would receive the same number. How about some feedback folks, how many would be interested in participating in a venture of this nature? Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF RETIRED

Response:

OK folks, I hadn’t planned to volunteer for a fly swap but if enough interest is shown I will serve as swapmeister.  This can be either warmwater or trout type flies (your choice)  For this thing to be worth the effort for everyone, not the least of which is *me*, we must get a MINIMUM of 12 swappers.  I will be on the road until Monday or Tuesday, so in the meantime you can decide if you want to participate.  Post your name to ROFF so we can all see who is in the swap.  So far, we have: Frank Church Herman Nijland Warren Findley Wolfie Willi Loehman newer tiers among us, you don’t have to be an "expert" at this (as I certainly am not)  just be willing to give it a shot. From past experience, a few rules will apply should this proposed swap actually come about____ 1.  We will set a deadline as to when I must receive all the flies. 2.  Send your flies in a container that is apt to survive the USPS. 3.  Include return postage with your offering, and I will mail your flies back to you in the      container which you originally shipped to me. 4.  Put a tag on the hook naming the fly, the tyer, and any other pertinent info.      (without this, the recipients will have to guess, you wouldn’t want that, would you?  :-) 5.  In my experience, 30 days is about enough time for everyone to get ‘em tied and back to me.     There are always one or two who wait to the last possible minute and are late getting the flies in,     so a grace period will be set, and only I will know that so you procrastinators need to take heed. That’s about it…..it would be nice to have a lot of participants, think about it. Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF RETIRED

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How many flies were we talking about here? Mu

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I am still a fairly new fly tier but this sound very interesting .  Please add my name to the list and let me know what happens. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK folks, I hadn’t planned to volunteer for a fly swap but if enough interest is shown I will serve as swapmeister.  This can be either warmwater or trout type flies (your choice)  For this thing to be worth the effort for everyone, not the least of which is *me*, we must get a MINIMUM of 12 swappers.  I will be on the road until Monday or Tuesday, so in the meantime you can decide if you want to participate.  Post your name to ROFF so we can all see who is in the swap.  So far, we have: Frank Church Herman Nijland Warren Findley Wolfie Willi Loehman newer tiers among us, you don’t have to be an "expert" at this (as I certainly am not)  just be willing to give it a shot. From past experience, a few rules will apply should this proposed swap actually come about____ 1.  We will set a deadline as to when I must receive all the flies. 2.  Send your flies in a container that is apt to survive the USPS. 3.  Include return postage with your offering, and I will mail your flies back to you in the      container which you originally shipped to me. 4.  Put a tag on the hook naming the fly, the tyer, and any other pertinent info.      (without this, the recipients will have to guess, you wouldn’t want that, would you?  :-) 5.  In my experience, 30 days is about enough time for everyone to get ‘em tied and back to me.     There are always one or two who wait to the last possible minute and are late getting the flies in,     so a grace period will be set, and only I will know that so you procrastinators need to take heed. That’s about it…..it would be nice to have a lot of participants, think about it. Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF RETIRED

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OK folks, I hadn’t planned to volunteer for a fly swap but if enough interest is shown I will serve as swapmeister.

Watch out for the whiners who don’t get Mike Connor’s flies–and be prepared to eat the postage costs –Steve

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That depends on the number of participants.  With 12 participants, say, each one ties 12 (of the same) flies of their choice, mail them to me, then I will re-distribute the flies so everyone gets 12 different flies.  We will have to wait to see how many sign up.  I think the cut-off date for sign-up should be a week from now, 24 May.  Then we’ll know how many you have to tie. I want to stress that this is a "your favorite fly" swap,  so anything goes as far as what fly you choose to tie and submit.  This could get interesting. Frank Church Elkhart, IN – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How many flies were we talking about here? Mu

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Question:

Going saltwater fly fishing? If so, we invite you to visit a site that just went live on November 4 of this year. Econoflies is home of the latest & most innovative saltwater fish flies & fly tying material available for the flyfishing enthusiast. We specialize in rare, creative & hard-to-find saltwater flies. We carry select saltwater assortments from blue-water selections to flats bonefish, permit & redfish selections. http://www.econoflies.com/

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Forgive him Don, for he knows not what he’s done….. Attention everyone!  Pray for this poster. hehe

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Question:

I am not sure about loading the boat solo.  Its not so much the weight but

I’ve just switched canoes from an Old Town to a handmade wooden one. The wooden one weighs at least 20 pounds less, but is too hard to handle completely well alone in getting it off the truck and back on the sawhorses, so I’ve been paddling for overnights in the tiny Otter, with stuff strapped on deck.  Otter fits in my truck bed on a diagonal.  The new canoe is 18 feet and the fore/aft wobble and so forth and need to try to keep the wood safe is just more work than the weight loss is worth.  I’ll probably be selling it next year. The Old Towns are wonderful.  You don’t have to worry about dents.  I used to take that thing off my car (lousy arm strength) by looking over to my right to be sure there was nothing pointy and tip/flipping it off.  As people would stare, I’d smile and say, "It’s a Old Town." and go get the rest of my gear out of my trunk.  I even used to be able to get it on top of my truck by doing the crawl under, lift bow, set bow on top of truck and shove until it was in the right position. I did that on a well used Old Town for 10 years and it was in about the same shape when I handed it on as it was when I bought it.  Faded more, though, and one long nasty scratch that has to be fixed by the new owner. So go for the Old Town, even a bit heavy, if you don’t mind some unconventional on and off vehicle moves.  I’m 5′4" and out of shape and if I could do it, darn near anyone can.  Oh, yeah, middlel-aged, too.  However, if I could find a 40 pound kevlar at a price I could afford, I’d be on it like a shot. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -the size could get tough.  I carry it myself but its helpful having my son guide the back as I load it on and off.  But that may just be me…your coleman seemed to be heavier. I’m now back in the market and looking for an all-purpose boat to cover the following usage: 65% fishing (with electric or tiny outboard) 30% flatwater paddling (maybe day trips or overnights) 5% "whitewater" (certainly ning more than a class 2+) ty. er) It seems to me that Old Town makes more general purpose boats than the other manufacturers, let me know if I am wrong. Woodbury, MN

—– I only answer my email every few months, on average.   Patience helps.   http://www.visi.com/~cyli

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If I bought a Discovery I’d buy the 169.  Its patterned on their "tripper" which is a great boat.  A friend has the 169 and it seems decent. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Old Town Discovery 160K Old Town Discovery 133K Old Town Discovery 147 (current front runner)

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Try before you buy…saying that… I had the same requirements you had except I also have a requirement of bringing my son along with me.  I went with the Mad River Revelation.  It does everything you want.  Its about 78 pounds, 17ft, and very stable also its expensive.  I fly fish out of it and its very comfortable to have my son in the front and me in the back.  It is amazingly comfortable to paddle over the lakes we fish.  It easily fits four for day trip though I have not tried camping out of it yet.  The electric motor is nice but because we enjoyed paddling it so much we use it only for trolling. I have not tried white water but have heard of others having no problems. I am not sure about loading the boat solo.  Its not so much the weight but the size could get tough.  I carry it myself but its helpful having my son guide the back as I load it on and off.  But that may just be me…your coleman seemed to be heavier. Good luck. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Back in the early 80’s I canoed quite a bit.  Yes, I was a teenager, broke and naive, and bought a 15′ Coleman.  (Yada, yada, yada).  I enjoyed that, fished the heck out of it, camped out of it some and ran a few rapids I probably shouldn’t have. I’m now back in the market and looking for an all-purpose boat to cover the following usage: 65% fishing (with electric or tiny outboard) 30% flatwater paddling (maybe day trips or overnights) 5% "whitewater" (certainly ning more than a class 2+) Now I certainly don’t expect to find something that shines at everything. I had originally decided to do something square-sterned but decided that a double-ended boat would be more versatile.  I want to favor fishing since that will be my heaviest usage.  Tracking well under power would be important so I’m assuming a flat or slightly rockeredboat would be appropriate.  I might also row when fishing solo.  I will fish out of it a lot solo so ease of car topping is also important ( I used to do my Coleman alone and I think the 15′ I had was about 85 lbs).  But I want the ability to hold two for fishing comfortably, or hold three on a day or overnight paddle.  I favor plastic boats for cost and durability. I’m hoping the experts here can help. What have I come up with?  My best guesses so far are: Old Town Discovery 160K Old Town Discovery 133K Old Town Discovery 147 (current front runner) It seems to me that Old Town makes more general purpose boats than the other manufacturers, let me know if I am wrong. Let me know what you think. Thanks a lot, Keith Hatfull Woodbury, MN

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Back in the early 80’s I canoed quite a bit.  Yes, I was a teenager, broke and naive, and bought a 15′ Coleman.  (Yada, yada, yada).  I enjoyed that, fished the heck out of it, camped out of it some and ran a few rapids I probably shouldn’t have. I’m now back in the market and looking for an all-purpose boat to cover the following usage: 65% fishing (with electric or tiny outboard) 30% flatwater paddling (maybe day trips or overnights) 5% "whitewater" (certainly ning more than a class 2+) Now I certainly don’t expect to find something that shines at everything.  I had originally decided to do something square-sterned but decided that a double-ended boat would be more versatile.  I want to favor fishing since that will be my heaviest usage.  Tracking well under power would be important so I’m assuming a flat or slightly rockeredboat would be appropriate.  I might also row when fishing solo.  I will fish out of it a lot solo so ease of car topping is also important ( I used to do my Coleman alone and I think the 15′ I had was about 85 lbs).  But I want the ability to hold two for fishing comfortably, or hold three on a day or overnight paddle.  I favor plastic boats for cost and durability. I’m hoping the experts here can help. What have I come up with?  My best guesses so far are: Old Town Discovery 160K Old Town Discovery 133K Old Town Discovery 147 (current front runner) It seems to me that Old Town makes more general purpose boats than the other manufacturers, let me know if I am wrong. Let me know what you think. Thanks a lot, Keith Hatfull Woodbury, MN

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Old Town is OK but consider a Mad River Explorer in Royalex.  They cost a bit more, but have more stability, and load carrying capacity.  They can handle any reasonable whitewater. (The first  open canoe down the Grand Canyon was Jim Shelander’s explorer. )

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If you can take the time paddle every boat that is recommended to you. I am totally biased but I don’t think you will find a better boat for your described purpose than a Dagger Sewannee. 15 feet, reasonably light, and paddles better than you will believe until you try it. Go with the three seat version and venture  into only very mild whitewater in any of this type of  boat. There should be a description at www.Dagger.com Steve Scarborough

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Question:

I have gone up to the Sault for about 4 years now using standard spinning gear sn spoons for the Pink Salmon.  I have to say, despite seeing lots of fish, the "cast per fish" ratio is outrageous.  We would catch 1-2 each for about 8 hours of fishing.  I have heard that fly fishing for them is MUCH better, and I’m looking for advice on where and how to catch them.  I live in Michigan.  Thanks

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I have gone up to the Sault for about 4 years now using standard spinning gear sn spoons for the Pink Salmon.  I have to say, despite seeing lots of fish, the "cast per fish" ratio is outrageous.  We would catch 1-2 each for about 8 hours of fishing.  I have heard that fly fishing for them is MUCH better, and I’m looking for advice on where and how to catch them.  I live in Michigan.  

Two local guides, one Canadian and one US, feature in Linsenman, Bob, and Steve Nevala Great Lakes Steelhead: a Guided Tour for Fly Anglers Backcountry Pubs., Woodstock Vt. (1995) — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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Question:

I lost the post regarding information on the classes offered in Sept/Oct regarding the Striped Bass in Frank’s Tract.  Anyone have this info, please reply.   I believe the classes were around $125. Thanks,   Howard

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<<I lost the post regarding information on the classes offered in Sept/Oct regarding the Striped Bass in Frank’s Tract.  Anyone have this info, please reply.   I believe the classes were around $125. Thanks,   Howard

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I lost the post regarding information on the classes offered in Sept/Oct regarding the Striped Bass in Frank’s Tract.   I believe the classes were around $125. Thanks,   Howard

It was from Fish First in Albany – 510/526-1937.  Begins early Oct.   Sounds interesting moght see you there. bob

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Question:

        There are five spring ponds on one of Alberta’s largest ranches which have just been opened to flyfishing. The ranch is bordered by the Belly and Waterton Rivers in the southwest of the province, not far from the Montana border.         The scenery is beautiful and so are the trout. Rainbows of over 20" are not uncommon and they cruise the ponds feeding on prolific mayfly, caddis and midge hatches.         If you like to stalk large trout, this is for your.         A friend, Matt Sparrow, is the keeper and he may be contacted by telephoning 403-626-3050. The cost is C$50 per day (for now) and food and lodging may be arranged at the comfortable bunkhouse. Guiding and local flies are also available.

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   There are five spring ponds on one of Alberta’s largest ranches which have just been opened to flyfishing. The ranch is bordered by the Belly and Waterton Rivers in the southwest of the province, not far from the Montana border.

So are those "poor ranchers" not making end meet on cows,that they have to jump into FF ?    The scenery is beautiful and so are the trout. Rainbows of over 20" are not uncommon and they cruise the ponds feeding on prolific mayfly, caddis and midge hatches.

I hope that all those Rainbows get whirling disease,just to take away any  possible profit out from all those  who want make    If you like to stalk large trout, this is for your.    A friend, Matt Sparrow, is the keeper and he may be contacted by telephoning 403-626-3050. The cost is C$50 per day (for now) and food and lodging may be arranged at the comfortable bunkhouse. Guiding and local flies are also available.

If your friend is trying turn this country into Europe or UK with "pay and fish" attitude maybe you should tell him about * Fishing License".How many times do you have to pay for a privilege to fish ?? How many greedy bastards do we have to feed?? Don’t support anybody who is trying to charge you for "just fishing" or you will find yourself in situation :"one day fishing $ 50.00 ,100.00 ,400.00 who knows where the end is *and you may keep the fish too* if you put "XY"amount of $ down. Please anybody from UK,or rest of Europe who can put more light into this ?Thank you. Have nice day Karel K.

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Question:

I’m only a few days from heading up to Yellowstone and southern Montana type of flys might work best?  I suppose that some elk hair caddis might be good.    thanks,            drex

I could help more if you had mentioned which areas of which rivers you plan to fish?  However, this time of year I never go to the Yellowstone area without flys for these hatches:         1. Baetis (Small blue wing olives):             – nymph ( size 18 Pheasant tails)         – emerger (size 18 & 20 RS2’s) usually fished as a nymph            before the hatch.         – Renee Harrop no hackles (in sizes 18 & 20)         – Adams (without wing)         2. Trico’s (females black size 20 to 22, Males olive size 20):         – Spinner ( blue dun wings) split tail and I add a  third             parachute wing so I can see the bloody things.  White             parachute wing for days).  When the fish are on trico             spinners don’t even bother fishing anything else.         –  Dun: dun hackles body colors above don’t bother with a              wing unless you need it to see it.  I clip the hackles to get             a lower float and I usually carry parachute versions.  I              don’t find the duns to be as inportant as the spinners.             Note the same flys work for baetis duns and Trico males,              i.e. olive no hackles and size twenty adams w/o wings.         – Dun

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I’m only a few days from heading up to Yellowstone and southern Montana for a glorious week of fly fishing.  A few months ago, when I was planning this trip, I sent out requests for places to fish up there.  If there are any others that would like to share their knowledge of the area, I would certainly appreciate it.  My current plans are pretty loose, but we intend to fly into Jackson Hole(the one fly competition is going on there), and then drive up to Yellowstone.  Then we’ll make a big loop that will include West Yellowstone, up to Bozeman, across to Livingston, and then back down into Yellowstone.  Does anyone have advice on fishing this time of year and what type of flys might work best?  I suppose that some elk hair caddis might be good.         thanks,                 drex

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