Question:

I like Outbacks, but at 6′3" (not overly tall) I found they have a serious lack of legroom.  I don’t see how you can say they have way more interior space than an average SUV, as my smallish 2-door Explorer is roomier.

If the Outback is too small for you, look at the Forester.  It has more room in all ways, but still isn’t a gas hog or road-warrier. — David L. Johnson    __o   | I don’t believe you, you’ve got the whole damn thing all wrong.  _`(,_  | He’s not the kind you have to wind-up on Sundays.  –Ian (_)/ (_) | Anderson   — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

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we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability? Check out the Subaru Outback.   Way more interior space than many averaged sized SUV’s.  It’s also much easier to get bikes up on the roof.

Outback simply SUCK for beach riding. I almost lost mine in Kauai. Yes, I took the air down to 20psi and all that funky stuff. It doesn’t have a real 4×4 and only the wheel with least resistance spins. I know, I have a lot of scars to prove it – trying to get it out. A 4 runner towed me out – for a case of beer. — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

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Outback simply SUCK for beach riding. I almost lost mine in Kauai. Yes, I took the air down to 20psi and all that funky stuff. It doesn’t have a real 4×4 and only the wheel with least resistance spins. I know, I have a lot of scars to prove it – trying to get it out. A 4 runner towed me out – for a case of beer.

20 PSI is generally too high. Try 15 or even 10 PSI next time and you can probably go anywhere. — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

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in rec.autos.4×4, Outback simply SUCK for beach riding. I almost lost mine in Kauai. Yes, I took the air down to 20psi and all that funky stuff. It doesn’t have a real 4×4 and only the wheel with least resistance spins. I know, I have a lot of scars to prove it – trying to get it out.

Down to 20psi? For sand try more like 5-8 psi…. I run 2-3 psi in the snow/sand. ~Brian — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

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Outback simply SUCK for beach riding. I almost lost mine in Kauai. Yes, I took the air down to 20psi and all that funky stuff. It doesn’t have a real 4×4 and only the wheel with least resistance spins. I know, I have a lot

I thought those fancy modern "All Wheel Drive" systems are supposed to power the wheels that DO get traction. I guess I’ll stick with my old assumption, that AWD is good for cars on less-than-perfect roads / weather, and not much else. Maybe different AWD systems from different manufacturers are better or worse. — Rick Onanian — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

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Outback simply SUCK for beach riding. I almost lost mine in Kauai. Yes, I took the air down to 20psi and all that funky stuff. It doesn’t have a real 4×4 and only the wheel with least resistance spins. I know, I have a lot I thought those fancy modern "All Wheel Drive" systems are supposed to power the wheels that DO get traction. I guess I’ll stick with my old assumption, that AWD is good for cars on less-than-perfect roads / weather, and not much else. Maybe different AWD systems from different manufacturers are better or worse.

  There is a small difference between the AWD system on   cars like the Porsche Turbo, Audi S6, Lamborghini,   Porsche Cayenne, and the considerably less expensive   ones found on lesser vehicles.

Response:

I’ve driven my Jeep Wrangler on the NC outer banks beaches.  It’s actually pretty tough conditions getting over the dune trails.  I saw a Subaru getting pulled out of the deep sand – he was buried up to his frame, and two really big 4wd trucks were having trouble getting him out.  Depending on recent weather, you might have to drive quite a distance through the softest, driest sand you can imagine, with really deep tracks that require good clearance.  On the beach I see mostly 4WD trucks and "normal/large" size SUVs, not the small ones.  You need to lower your tire pressure to 15-10 psi.  Once you clear the really soft sand you can drive easily.  There’s nothing like the outer banks beaches – sometimes you can drive till you can barley see another vehicle, and have a mile of beach all to yourself.  Other times it’s like a parking lot of 4×4s.  Not sure why.  You can also ride a mountain bike along the hard sand at the water’s edge, but the sand and salt are really bad for the bike… Brad — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

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This past April I had my GMC Sarfari AWD van on the beaches in Hatteras… deflate the air pressure in your tires to 20psi and off you go!!! Everything fits in, or, or behind the van. — Marty S. Baltimore, MD  USA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability? we also need the car to be decent or good on the road, for normal use. we have a new baby… also, my s.o. is only 5′1" tall, while i’m 6′ so i don’t want her to feel the truck is too high (getting in) or too big (reaching the trunk, etc). we’re looking at the MAZDA TRIBUTE. We know it drives well on the road… is the 4 wheel drive V6 reasonable for the beach?? Enough power? Won’t get stuck? I’ve heard compact suv’s like the CRV are not good that way.. any real differences on the FORD ESCAPE? how is the Jeep liberty? Toyota 4runner tops the charts but $$… would have to get a *more* used one. What do you all drive on the beach for fishing/camping/biking? i guess ideally you want a truck truck for the beach, which probably doesn’t ride that well on the road, and a car car for everyday…. but what’s the best of both worlds, or the best compromise?… we have a budget too to consider and we’d like to stay in the 15-22K range for a new, or 1-2 year old, <20-30K miles type of bracket. also, anyone know if a slim thule or other cargo box plus a couple mountain bike trays would fit on top of the Mazda tribute? can you email replies to me, if you also post? thx in advance james — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

– rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

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James, If I had the money to blow on a new car, I’d probably buy a Honda Element. This seems to meet all of your criteria, and is available in four wheel drive. We (wife and I) have considered buying one but have decided to wait a couple of years for a Hybrid gasoline/ electric vehicle. (Toyota Highlander, Ford Escape, and Saturn VUE hybrids will all available within the next couple of years, as will a Toyota Sienna Hybrid AWD (a real wallet-buster, no doubt.) Until then, we’re still cramming all of our stuff into our Saturn Wagon! The bikes go on a receiver hitch rack in the back. Dave Wissenbach – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability? we also need the car to be decent or good on the road, for normal use. we have a new baby… also, my s.o. is only 5′1" tall, while i’m 6′ so i don’t want her to feel the truck is too high (getting in) or too big (reaching the trunk, etc). we’re looking at the MAZDA TRIBUTE. We know it drives well on the road… is the 4 wheel drive V6 reasonable for the beach?? Enough power? Won’t get stuck? I’ve heard compact suv’s like the CRV are not good that way.. any real differences on the FORD ESCAPE? how is the Jeep liberty? Toyota 4runner tops the charts but $$… would have to get a *more* used one. What do you all drive on the beach for fishing/camping/biking? i guess ideally you want a truck truck for the beach, which probably doesn’t ride that well on the road, and a car car for everyday…. but what’s the best of both worlds, or the best compromise?… we have a budget too to consider and we’d like to stay in the 15-22K range for a new, or 1-2 year old, <20-30K miles type of bracket. also, anyone know if a slim thule or other cargo box plus a couple mountain bike trays would fit on top of the Mazda tribute? can you email replies to me, if you also post? thx in advance james — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

– rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

I guess for the beach you need wide tires and 4 wheel drive? I am sure that down around Corpus Christi they have some favorite vehicles? I think I have seen Chevy Suburbans in some articles? — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA www.kiene.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability? we also need the car to be decent or good on the road, for normal use. we have a new baby… also, my s.o. is only 5′1" tall, while i’m 6′ so i don’t want her to feel the truck is too high (getting in) or too big (reaching the trunk, etc). we’re looking at the MAZDA TRIBUTE. We know it drives well on the road… is the 4 wheel drive V6 reasonable for the beach?? Enough power? Won’t get stuck? I’ve heard compact suv’s like the CRV are not good that way.. any real differences on the FORD ESCAPE? how is the Jeep liberty? Toyota 4runner tops the charts but $$… would have to get a *more* used one. What do you all drive on the beach for fishing/camping/biking? i guess ideally you want a truck truck for the beach, which probably doesn’t ride that well on the road, and a car car for everyday…. but what’s the best of both worlds, or the best compromise?… we have a budget too to consider and we’d like to stay in the 15-22K range for a new, or 1-2 year old, <20-30K miles type of bracket. also, anyone know if a slim thule or other cargo box plus a couple mountain bike trays would fit on top of the Mazda tribute? can you email replies to me, if you also post? thx in advance james — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

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Response:

Check out the Subaru Outback.   Way more interior space than many averaged sized SUV’s.  It’s also much easier to get bikes up on the roof.

I like Outbacks, but at 6′3" (not overly tall) I found they have a serious lack of legroom.  I don’t see how you can say they have way more interior space than an average SUV, as my smallish 2-door Explorer is roomier.  Maybe more cargo space than a CRV or RAV 4, but those are quite a bit smaller than average size and still have more legroom. Nice vehicles though if you can fit in them. — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability?

Be wary of the Mazda Tribute/Ford Escape twins (they are mechanically identical, built by Ford).  They are good vehicles on paper, but have fairly poor reliability and resale value. The Jeep Liberty also has shown poor reliability and resale.  It is more capable off road than the Tribute/Escape but rides rougher, doesn’t drive as nice, is less roomy and gets poorer fuel economy. A well used Toyota 4-runner would be a better vehicle than either the Escape/Tribute or the Liberty are new.  But it is probably more than what you need. Take a long look at a Subaru Outback or Forester.  Also a Honda CRV and Toyota RAV4 would probably meet your needs.  The CRV is especially nice for kids as it has a minivan-like passthough to the back seats. The Hyundai Santa Fe is also a nice vehicle and comes with a great warranty. Do your research and be sure to look at total cost of ownership, including resale value and maintenence costs.  You will find Ford, GM, and Chrysler products really struggle there, while Honda is typically the best. Check out this article: http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2003-08-15-carcosts_x.htm The "cute-utes" are not real off road vehicles only if you plan to rock hop with the Jeeps. They should do fine for what you described. If you had any heavy towing to do I would say differently.  It would be silly to get a more capable 4×4 you would rarely if ever need, and you may get annoyed with the "truckyness" that comes with the bigger 4×4s.  I sure do.  Then again, I really don’t know how serious your off-road plans are.  But I’m guessing not as serious as you think. When I was in high school, my dad had a 2-wheel drive 4-cylinder Ranger.  You may be surprised where I took that thing.  It made a fine hunting vehicle. I can tell you with absolute certainty to stay away from Ford Explorers.  I have one and it is the biggest piece of junk I have ever owned.  And it doesn’t even have 60,000 miles on it yet.  The initial price made it seem like a good value.  But it’s been anything but. — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability?

Check out the Subaru Outback.   Way more interior space than many averaged sized SUV’s.  It’s also much easier to get bikes up on the roof. Barry — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

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Is it necessary to post again? Well, I’ll reply to a couple other points… we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are

Only if you want one. good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability?

I’ve never seen a campground or park that requires a real 4×4 to get to the site. The worst I’ve seen is the Winterhawk bluegrass festival, which requires you to get up a big, steep hill; if it’s muddy, 2-wheel drive vehicles have a tough time. Some campgrounds do have rather rough paths, but all that’s required is a little extra ground clearance. we also need the car to be decent or good on the road, for normal use.

This is when you’ll use it most, on the road. You should probably make that a priority. road… is the 4 wheel drive V6 reasonable for the beach?? Enough power? Won’t get stuck? I’ve heard compact suv’s like the CRV are not good that way..

Compact SUVs, as well as larger ones built on a car platform, are not off-road vehicles, no matter what the manufacturer claims. They can handle grass, the path to the campground, etc; but tough stuff like deep in the woods or in deep sand, you need quite the ballsy off-road pickup (or SUV built on a pickup truck platform). Do you expect to drive on the beach? I’ve only ever seen vehicles allowed on the beach on TV shows like Baywatch; nowhere I’ve been, have I seen vehicles permitted to drive onto the sand, or anywhere out of the parking lot. any real differences on the FORD ESCAPE?

The Ford Escape is a car-based SUV. It will do anything spectacular. It probably gives a pretty good ride on the road. how is the Jeep liberty?

Reportedly, the Liberty is okay. Never driven one. What do you all drive on the beach for fishing/camping/biking? i guess

I don’t drive anything on the beach. For fishing/camping/biking, I drove a 1997 Pontiac Grand Am for 5 years; a 1987 Cadillac Sedan Deville for a couple years before that; and now I drive a full size pickup, specifically, a 2002 GMC Sierra 4×4, extended cab, etc. The Caddy and the Pontiac did fine for all sorts of off-road situations, although I did bend a wheel by going too fast in the Caddy on a very rough trail. People who think a low-slung, 2wd car can’t go off road, either have never done it, or are unskilled off-road drivers. They can’t do really gnarly off road stuff; but car-based SUVs can’t either, except that they can deal with a little bit slipperier conditions and a little bit higher clearance issues. ideally you want a truck truck for the beach, which probably doesn’t ride that well on the road, and a car car for everyday…. but what’s the best of both worlds, or the best compromise?… we have a budget

My GMC Sierra, which does NOT have any sort of off-road package, and has lame-looking road tires, is the most comfortable vehicle I’ve ever driven. The tires, which look lame, provide ample grip in all sorts of snow, mud, etc. also, anyone know if a slim thule or other cargo box plus a couple mountain bike trays would fit on top of the Mazda tribute?

I can’t imagine why not. can you email replies to me, if you also post? thx in advance james

– Rick Onanian — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability? we also need the car to be decent or good on the road, for normal use. we have a new baby… also, my s.o. is only 5′1" tall, while i’m 6′ so i don’t want her to feel the truck is too high (getting in) or too big (reaching the trunk, etc). we’re looking at the MAZDA TRIBUTE. We know it drives well on the road… is the 4 wheel drive V6 reasonable for the beach?? Enough power? Won’t get stuck? I’ve heard compact suv’s like the CRV are not good that way.. any real differences on the FORD ESCAPE? how is the Jeep liberty? Toyota 4runner tops the charts but $$… would have to get a *more* used one. What do you all drive on the beach for fishing/camping/biking? i guess ideally you want a truck truck for the beach, which probably doesn’t ride that well on the road, and a car car for everyday…. but what’s the best of both worlds, or the best compromise?… we have a budget too to consider and we’d like to stay in the 15-22K range for a new, or 1-2 year old, <20-30K miles type of bracket. also, anyone know if a slim thule or other cargo box plus a couple mountain bike trays would fit on top of the Mazda tribute? can you email replies to me, if you also post? thx in advance james — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

You might want to look at the Suzuki XL-7 (4 wheel drive version).  You could get the third row seat version and still stay close to the upper limit of your price range.  Even an ‘02 model would be good, and most (those sold after August last year) have a transferable 7 year 100,000 mile powertrain warranty.  It might be worth looking at. — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability? we also need the car to be decent or good on the road, for normal use. we have a new baby… also, my s.o. is only 5′1" tall, while i’m 6′ so i don’t want her to feel the truck is too high (getting in) or too big (reaching the trunk, etc). we’re looking at the MAZDA TRIBUTE. We know it drives well on the road… is the 4 wheel drive V6 reasonable for the beach?? Enough power? Won’t get stuck? I’ve heard compact suv’s like the CRV are not good that way.. any real differences on the FORD ESCAPE? how is the Jeep liberty? Toyota 4runner tops the charts but $$… would have to get a *more* used one. What do you all drive on the beach for fishing/camping/biking? i guess ideally you want a truck truck for the beach, which probably doesn’t ride that well on the road, and a car car for everyday…. but what’s the best of both worlds, or the best compromise?… we have a budget too to consider and we’d like to stay in the 15-22K range for a new, or 1-2 year old, <20-30K miles type of bracket. also, anyone know if a slim thule or other cargo box plus a couple mountain bike trays would fit on top of the Mazda tribute? can you email replies to me, if you also post? thx in advance james — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

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Question:

Sounds like a FANTASTIC day on the water,  great report jh

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter Charles writes: <great report/info snipped Plans are in the offing for the next trip. Ok, I can’t make it tomorrow, but Friday is open!  d;o) Got home after an 8 hour drive (512 miles) in pouring rain, but every time I thought of those fish, I began to smile. If you’ve  fished with me, you know I don’t move around too well.  Legs and feet are very sore, but hotdamn, ya get an 18 pound salmon on a fly rod and he begins one (1) run that takes you well into your backing, ya hafta fall/leap out of the boat and run after the damn thing.  It ain’t fair.  But, is sure is heart thumping and adrenaline pumping.  And then, the bastid comes running back at you; once your get your line all wound up and clear,  he’s off on another run  into the backing   It is definitely weird to be running downstream in knee-deep water, with your flyrod high and see a fish jump 250 feet in front of you and realize that you are connected to that fish with a hundred feet of line, a hundred and forty feet of backing , 10 feet of 10 pound tippet and a fly that you *know* is gonna go straight any second.  Multiply that by 4 and you have an idea of the day Peter and I had on the Saugeen. I know where Peter lives.  I’ll be back, with a 10 foot 7 weight *with a fighting butt*, a Lamson 3.5 large arbor filled with wf line and as much backing as it can hold.  If not next month, Peter, count on late April/early May.  And this time we open the 18 year old stuff.  <G Dave

Response:

(snip) It is definitely weird to be running downstream in knee-deep water, with your flyrod high and see a fish jump 250 feet in front of you and realize that you are connected to that fish with a hundred feet of line, a hundred and forty feet of backing , 10 feet of 10 pound tippet

(snip)     that whole thing is just crazy.  just freaking crazy.  i can’t imagine such an experience. yfitons wayno

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -wayno writes: (snip) It is definitely weird to be running downstream in knee-deep water, with your flyrod high and see a fish jump 250 feet in front of you and realize that you are connected to that fish with a hundred feet of line, a hundred and forty feet of backing , 10 feet of 10 pound tippet (snip)    that whole thing is just crazy.  just freaking crazy.  i can’t imagine such an experience. yfitons wayno

Save a day next may.  You can sleep in the rv.  I’ll let you use my 8 weight *with* the fighting butt.  I wanna see your scrawny ass runnin down the middle of this water.  <G Louie

Response:

   that whole thing is just crazy.  just freaking crazy.  i can’t imagine such an experience. yfitons wayno

There’s a solution for that . . . . Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Peter Charles writes:    that whole thing is just crazy.  just freaking crazy.  i can’t imagine such an experience. yfitons wayno There’s a solution for that . . . . Peter

He’s used to catching iddy biddy trout the size of his dick, Peter.  He wouldn’t dream of going up and fishing with us.  The largest rod he has is a 2 weight – we’d have to loan him equipment and probably teach him how to cast it.  <seg  This water is meant for PJ and combat fishing. Louie (who hopes insults will move his scrawny ass)

Response:

Peter He’s used to catching iddy biddy trout the size of his dick, Peter.  He wouldn’t dream of going up and fishing with us.  The largest rod he has is a 2 weight – we’d have to loan him equipment and probably teach him how to cast it. <seg  This water is meant for PJ and combat fishing. Louie (who hopes insults will move his scrawny ass)

That small eh?  In that case, I would think a 0 weight would be more appropriate.  If he came, we’d probably need a bosun’s chair just to lower him out of the boat.  BTW, think he can even lift an 8 wt.?  If he ever hooked a salmon, he’d probably throw the rod overboard from sheer fright.    (how am I doin’?) Peter

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It’s late, I’m beat, the pirate is whacked – this TR is gonna be short. Up at 4:30 and, on the road at 5:15, arrived at the store at 6:00, on the water by 8:00 and home by 9:00pm.   Louie before the trip, "I’m gonna take my 6 wt."   Told the Pirate not to bother with his vest or the 6 wt.   Well, we’re at the put-in and John Valk (owner/guide) is going "Nyet" to the 6 wt.  Out comes the 8 wt.  Now I’m looking at Louie and the fighting butt on the 8 wt. is missing, "I took it off." he says.  Silly boy.  By the end of the day, there’s no vest, the 6 wt. never left its tube and he has a hole in his sternum where he had stuck the reel seat on repeated occasions. Best shot of the day – watching Louie’s face as his backing rapidly disappears.  Second best shot of the day, seeing Louie running 100 yds downstream trying to retrieve his backing – after vaulting out of the drift boat. Anyway, a bunch of very feisty chinook was had and all returned in one piece (including the anglers).   Details at 6:00. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Anyway, a bunch of very feisty chinook was had and all returned in one piece (including the anglers).   Sounds great.  Were there any steelhead in as yet ? Remove "XX" from address

We saw a few but the real run hasn’t gone going yet.  We need colder temps and a *lot* more water. As John fussed with the boat and stuff, there were a bunch of salmon playing in the shallows.  I had a poke at them with the big stick but no joy.  With that experience, I put it away and took out a single hander. Dave got out a rarely used Orvis 8 wt. with a big sinktip that proved to be a difficult line to use in the low water conditions. Dave, by his own admission, was unsure what this fishing would be about and when we found a pod of about 20 salmon cavorting about, he had two silver dollars for eyeballs.   John has a particular way of doing a wet fly swing (he likes the fly oriented north-south – I tend to a broadside presentation) but we both used John’s technique.  We swim the fly in front of the pod and hope that a big, pissed-off male will charge out and nail it.  Frequently, we were not disappointed and Dave got a very lively fish out of this pod within a couple of minutes. Dave hooked up first (a fish probably in the low teens) which promptly peeled off all of his line and a good quantity of backing.  It was a great intro to Saugeen salmon fishing.  He eventually ended up about 100 yards downstream where the fish was netted. A couple of points about these fish.  Credit River salmon are stocked and live in Lake Ontario whereas the Saugeen fish are naturals and live in Lake Huron.  You cannot imagine how much difference this results in.  Saugeen fish, even 70 miles upstream, are fairly bright and in excellent shape.  Credit River stockers are only a few miles up stream and already black and rotting.  The Saugeen fish takes off at a high rate of knots when released, even after a long fight.  He’s usually back cavorting in a minute or two.  Credit River fish often roll over an die upon release after a half-hearted fight.  John told us a story of catching the same chinook three times in succession and it fought just as hard the third time as it did the first. The Saugeen was especially low and clear so the fish were always very obvious.  We drifted over a few steelhead, loads of huge smallies, some browns, red horse suckers, carp, and a few unidentified.  The colours were especially bright in the high sun, and with the warm day, it was a very pleasant trip all-round. Final results were something like four fish each landed and multiple hookups (including one double).  Most of the fish were in the teens but one of mine was over 20 lbs.  We saw and hooked a few bruisers that ran over 30.  All of them took off in long runs.  Some of the fish were quite aerobatic with jumps, lunges and tumbles that often resulted in them being wrapped up in line.  One of mine began to fight funny after a few minutes. On initial hookup, the fish stuck his head out of the water with an open mouthed head shake that told of a fair hook.  By the time we got him landed, the fly was still in his mouth but he had about five winds of line around one fin.  Dave had one where the fly started off in it’s mouth and ended up in it’s tail.  We figured it too got wrapped up in line and then the fly came loose only to reattach. I’ll have a trip on my site by next week with pics that will give some indication of the river and the fish.   It was fun as always having the Pirate up and Thanksgiving dinner will long be remembered for the gales of laughter and the sore sides we had in the morning. Plans are in the offing for the next trip. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Peter Charles writes: <great report/info snipped Plans are in the offing for the next trip.

Don’t wait too long. Ok, I can’t make it tomorrow, but Friday is open!  d;o)

At the Salmon River, Saugeen next week. Got home after an 8 hour drive (512 miles) in pouring rain, but every time I thought of those fish, I began to smile.

probably brighter than those bright blue Audi headlights. If you’ve  fished with me, you know I don’t move around too well.  Legs and feet are very sore, but hotdamn, ya get an 18 pound salmon on a fly rod and he begins one (1) run that takes you well into your backing, ya hafta fall/leap out of the boat and run after the damn thing.  It ain’t fair.  But, is sure is heart thumping and adrenaline pumping.  And then, the bastid comes running back at you; once your get your line all wound up and clear,  he’s off on another run  into the backing   It is definitely weird to be running downstream in knee-deep water, with your flyrod high and see a fish jump 250 feet in front of you and realize that you are connected to that fish with a hundred feet of line, a hundred and forty feet of backing , 10 feet of 10 pound tippet and a fly that you *know* is gonna go straight any second.  Multiply that by 4 and you have an idea of the day Peter and I had on the Saugeen.  

It was a memorable day fer sure.   I know where Peter lives.  I’ll be back, with a 10 foot 7 weight *with a fighting butt*, a Lamson 3.5 large arbor filled with wf line and as much backing as it can hold. If not next month, Peter, count on late April/early May.  And this time we open the 18 year old stuff.  <G

You mean, like again! Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Peter Charles writes:

<great report/info snipped Plans are in the offing for the next trip.

Ok, I can’t make it tomorrow, but Friday is open!  d;o) Got home after an 8 hour drive (512 miles) in pouring rain, but every time I thought of those fish, I began to smile. If you’ve  fished with me, you know I don’t move around too well.  Legs and feet are very sore, but hotdamn, ya get an 18 pound salmon on a fly rod and he begins one (1) run that takes you well into your backing, ya hafta fall/leap out of the boat and run after the damn thing.  It ain’t fair.  But, is sure is heart thumping and adrenaline pumping.  And then, the bastid comes running back at you; once your get your line all wound up and clear,  he’s off on another run  into the backing   It is definitely weird to be running downstream in knee-deep water, with your flyrod high and see a fish jump 250 feet in front of you and realize that you are connected to that fish with a hundred feet of line, a hundred and forty feet of backing , 10 feet of 10 pound tippet and a fly that you *know* is gonna go straight any second.  Multiply that by 4 and you have an idea of the day Peter and I had on the Saugeen.   I know where Peter lives.  I’ll be back, with a 10 foot 7 weight *with a fighting butt*, a Lamson 3.5 large arbor filled with wf line and as much backing as it can hold.  If not next month, Peter, count on late April/early May.  And this time we open the 18 year old stuff.  <G Dave

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Sounds like a great trip. Sight fishing for big fish, can’t beat that! Did you catch anything other than the Chinooks?

Nope, we were hoping for steelhead but the conditions were too warm and the water too low.  We saw lots of smallies but with the low, clear water, we saw them when we spooked them.   Not sure I’d call the the Saugeen fish "natural" but the same differences you found here between the stocked and streambred salmon also applies to trout. Even though the genetics might be the same, the stocked fish act differently even after being in the wild for a considerable time. Willi

I used the term ‘natural’ to mean naturally reproducing.  While these chinook exhibit superior characteristics as compared to their stocked cousins, I haven’t seem the same difference between natural and stocked browns on the Grand.  That may have something to do with how the Grand stocking program is managed. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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I thought that Ontario had stopped stocking chinook altogether, but I guess not, eh ?   The strain of chinook used for stocking is one that does not move in until quite late.  I’ve read that what has happened in some cases where natural reproduction has been established is that over generations the salmon have tended to come into rivers earlier and earlier prior to spawning.  It sounds like the Saugeen is one of them.

I’ve always understood that Credit River chinook were stocked as the prospects for natural reproduction were poor.  John confirmed that they were stockers. I’ve not heard about earlier runs but with the Saugeen being farther north, an earlier run is to be expected.  There’s no question that they are much healthier fish. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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      Anyway, a bunch of very feisty chinook was had and all returned in one   piece (including the anglers).       Sounds great.  Were there any steelhead in as yet ?     Remove "XX" from address       A couple of points about these fish.  Credit River salmon are stocked   and live in Lake Ontario whereas the Saugeen fish are naturals and   live in Lake Huron.  You cannot imagine how much difference this   results in.  Saugeen fish, even 70 miles upstream, are fairly bright   and in excellent shape.  Credit River stockers are only a few miles up   stream and already black and rotting.  The Saugeen fish takes off at a   high rate of knots when released, even after a long fight.  He’s   usually back cavorting in a minute or two.  Credit River fish often   roll over an die upon release after a half-hearted fight.  John told   us a story of catching the same chinook three times in succession and   it fought just as hard the third time as it did the first. Sounds like a great trip. Sight fishing for big fish, can’t beat that! Did you catch anything other than the Chinooks? Not sure I’d call the the Saugeen fish "natural" but the same differences you found here between the stocked and streambred salmon also applies to trout. Even though the genetics might be the same, the stocked fish act differently even after being in the wild for a considerable time. Willi

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Good Morning to all,     I have been lerking in this room for about a month now. I really enjoy the information passed and the whit that is flung around the room. I decided to finally make myself known so that I may contribute (what little I do know)if the need arises.     I have been fishing for most of my life, but did not get into fly fishing until about 3 or 4 years ago. I tie, but not too well. Practice makes perfect though. Retired from the military and trying to make my way in the civilian sector. So far, so good. Maryland resident working with frank reid. He told me about this group. Thanks Frank!     Anyways, I look forward to reading more. Dan Mattice Sr.

If you REALLY want to see a bunch of fly fishing junkies, go on over to ROFF  (rec.outdoors.fishing.fly)   — A question is better debated and left unanswered than a question that is answered without debate. -Unknown

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Dan,    Just saw this and welcome to the group.  Flytying is a wonderful diversion for those who like to experience a wider range of fly fishing activity.  Now, get back to work.  ;-)           Frank

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Good Morning to all,      I have been lerking in this room for about a month now. I really enjoy the information passed and the whit that is flung around the room. I decided to finally make myself known so that I may contribute (what little I do know)if the need arises.      I have been fishing for most of my life, but did not get into fly fishing until about 3 or 4 years ago. I tie, but not too well. Practice makes perfect though. Retired from the military and trying to make my way in the civilian sector. So far, so good. Maryland resident working with frank reid. He told me about this group. Thanks Frank!      Anyways, I look forward to reading more. Dan Mattice Sr.

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Question:

  A few slight differences of opinion, noted below. OK, I will try.  A sportfisherman will have a big cockpit, a transom door, and a stepped up entrance to the salon. Its helm will be in a position so that the captain can see the transom and the cockpit. Common fishing accessories would include a marlin or tuna tower, outriggers,  and cockpit controls.

  A fair description, but I might add that the cabin might be very small or nonexistent.  The emphasis is on fishing, not cabin. A Sedan has a bigger salon, and even a smaller cockpit than a convertible. 25 years ago the difference between a convertible and a sedan was the sedan had an enclosed salon with sliders or a sinlge door in the aft bulkhead; the convertible had an open salon with no aft bulkhead. All three styles, sportfisherman, sedan, and convertible, have a flybridge.

  My definition of a sedan is a bit different.  What I call a sedan they don’t seem to make anymore, but they used to be fairly common.  There is a style of boat that has a smaller cabin and larger elevated back deck area (higher because it is over the engine), with the helm in the forward most portion of the back deck area.  At least the forward portion of this deck would be enclosed, with glass windows, windshield wipers, etc.  It would not have a fly bridge.  A lot of the "classic" wood boats were built this way.   Older sedan models were often a displacement hull rather than a planing hull. An express cruiser has no flybridge!

  I would add that the helm station is rather exposed, often with little or no windshield. The boat is fairly low profile, making it fast and light, as well as a minimum of bridge clearance.  They are not good for foul weather, however, as their only helm station has no protection. Rod

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Hi, Peggie, I agree with the statements for the late seventies models but the late sixties early seventies had most of the engines for the Silvertons under the cock pit with the drives going under the entry. Most other Larz group boats did the about the same thing. Most of the sedans that we have in our area from that era have small salon access. A few with sliders but here in the Midwest, most Silvertons have the door and window option. — Regards and God Speed, Gary Gary W. Sandvik The magic is in the magician not the wand! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, My one exception is the difference between the sedan and convertible cockpits. Early sedan designs that I’ve seen Silverton, Trojan seem to have larger cockpits with smaller salon access. I dunno Gary, the Trojan F32 and F36, built from ‘73-91, all had wide sliding glass doors from the cockpit to the saloon. The early ’70s Eggs and Pacemakers had wood bulkheads with small doors, but the late ’70s forward also had big sliding glass doors. In fact, by the mid-’70s glass saloon aft bulkheads were pretty much standard on all of ‘em…’cuz inside lower helm stations in addition to the flying bridges begin to become popular. Circa late 60s’ too mid 70s’ seem to have this design aspect. This allowed a larger engine area below the cockpit to accomodate those HP to push those monster hulls. Again, I dunno…That might have been true of smaller single engine models, but the engines in every twin engine flybridge sedan/convertable/sportfisher I’ve seen–including mine–are beneath the saloon, not the cockpit. All that weight midship instead of aft certainly makes it easier to get on plane and hold it at lower RPMS…an something I consider a definite advantage over express style cruisers. Peggie  Hell my old 28′ Silverton SD FB, keel was at least 8" thick and about 3/4-1" at the gunnel. Even the transom was about 1/2 to 3/4" thick. Long before they knew anything about reducing the mass to save $$. Heck the guy who originally brought the Rock to Peoria told me stories about how he broke ice to get into the harbor. Another old river story but I’m sure he broke some ice somewhere. But Capt, your descripts were good! — Regards and God Speed, Gary Gary W. Sandvik The magic is in the magician not the wand! OK, I will try.  A sportfisherman will have a big cockpit, a transom door, and a stepped up entrance to the salon. Its helm will be in a position so that the captain can see the transom and the cockpit. Common fishing accessories would include a marlin or tuna tower, outriggers,  and cockpit controls. A convertible is a boat that compromises between a "sedan" and a "sportfisherman". It will have a smaller cockpit, usually no stepped up entrance to the salon (more often than not "apartment door" sliders), and the helm will be in a more forward position. A Sedan has a bigger salon, and even a smaller cockpit than a convertible. 25 years ago the difference between a convertible and a sedan was the sedan had an enclosed salon with sliders or a sinlge door in the aft bulkhead; the convertible had an open salon with no aft bulkhead. All three styles, sportfisherman, sedan, and convertible, have a flybridge. An express cruiser has no flybridge! What do you say class, how did I do? Capt Lou of "Nautical Talk Radio" heard every Sunday morning 8 – 9 on WPRO 630AM serving Rhode Island and every Sunday afternoon from   4 – 5 on WATD 95.9FM serving Massachusetts.

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Hi, My one exception is the difference between the sedan and convertible cockpits. Early sedan designs that I’ve seen Silverton, Trojan seem to have larger cockpits with smaller salon access. Circa late 60s’ too mid 70s’ seem to have this design aspect. This allowed a larger engine area below the cockpit to accomodate those HP to push those monster hulls. Hell my old 28′ Silverton SD FB, keel was at least 8" thick and about 3/4-1" at the gunnel. Even the transom was about 1/2 to 3/4" thick. Long before they knew anything about reducing the mass to save $$. Heck the guy who originally brought the Rock to Peoria told me stories about how he broke ice to get into the harbor. Another old river story but I’m sure he broke some ice somewhere. But Capt, your descripts were good! — Regards and God Speed, Gary Gary W. Sandvik The magic is in the magician not the wand!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, I will try.  A sportfisherman will have a big cockpit, a transom door, and a stepped up entrance to the salon. Its helm will be in a position so that the captain can see the transom and the cockpit. Common fishing accessories would include a marlin or tuna tower, outriggers,  and cockpit controls. A convertible is a boat that compromises between a "sedan" and a "sportfisherman". It will have a smaller cockpit, usually no stepped up entrance to the salon (more often than not "apartment door" sliders), and the helm will be in a more forward position. A Sedan has a bigger salon, and even a smaller cockpit than a convertible. 25 years ago the difference between a convertible and a sedan was the sedan had an enclosed salon with sliders or a sinlge door in the aft bulkhead; the convertible had an open salon with no aft bulkhead. All three styles, sportfisherman, sedan, and convertible, have a flybridge. An express cruiser has no flybridge! What do you say class, how did I do? Capt Lou of "Nautical Talk Radio" heard every Sunday morning 8 – 9 on WPRO 630AM serving Rhode Island and every Sunday afternoon from   4 – 5 on WATD 95.9FM serving Massachusetts.

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Thank’s for the help.   On a day like this,  when the sleet is falling atop the five inches of snow we just got – I sometimes go to yachtworld,com boats for sale and just dream of  boat twice the length of mine.   Now I have a much better idea what I’m looking at. Alan

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I

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playing the fish I was shocked to discover a Channel Catfish (~3 lbs.) on the end of my line!!  I have never seen a catfish take a fly, but was even more astounded that it had taken a dry fly!!

Thanks for the post David.From another flatlander.I too am adicted to bluegills on a 3-weight.(you can’t have too many good 3-weight rods.)I enjoy taking catfish on my 3-weight rods, but have not been able to figure out how to do it on a more than once in a while basis and then seldom on the surface.My experience is that they are hell  on leaders, but who cares after a 20 minute fight? Big Dale PS My latest 3 weight Scott purchased from E-Bay was delivered by the postman yesterday. I had a good  visit with the postman who is another flyfisherman. Should be on my favorite bluegill pond about daybreak to check out the new rod.

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which I am only able to read. So maybe you can tell us… Which came first?

I am sure Indian Joe will be able to give first hand knowledge to George. God would’nt you like to be a fly on the wall at that event!!!!! Big Dale

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Lurking for 4 years!!??  Man, you must have the patience of a saint to stay out of some of these threads.  This past Tuesday I returned from a 7 day trip to Alaska, to find over 1,000 posts accumulated here on ROFF….I read most of them. (certain people on here are always worth reading)  After reading, it once again became clear to me why I am still here after nearly 5 years, this damned NG is not only enlightening, but entertaining as well.  If you want or need a comparison with a similar to that group too for more than 5 years.  This is a ‘moderated’ group, with the listowner who controls the content, ie: no flame wars, keep the to dress up, put on my Sunday best and behave while I’m there.  Over here, HA!  just amble on in wearing nothing but my boxers and a 3 day it’s just that this motley bunch has much more to offer in the way of entertainment value.  To quote our Mr G…"God, I love this place!" — Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF  RET.

|Greetings.  I have been lurking in this group for about 4 years, but |have been completely satisfied with just reading the different posts. |Now I am ready to join in the melee with a report of my own. | |Being a flatlander my main quarry is the largemouth bass and the |bluegill, and the other night (after work) I felt the need to bend a |rod.  I went to a local farm pond to catch a few bluegill.  I grabbed |my trusty 3 wt. and the appropriate boxes of flies to go after some |wary bluegill.  I tied on a sponge spider and immediately caught |several bluegill.  I decided to change flies and selected a Madame X |to see if I could entice more bluegill to jump on my line. | |Imagine my surprise when my rod almost came out of my hands.  Before I |knew what was happening my rod was bent over and my pile of slack line |was beginning to disappear!  I knew I had a larger fish and figured it |was a bass.  The problem was I didn’t know how big and whether, or |not, it would break my 1.5 pound tippet.  After 20 minutes, or so, of |playing the fish I was shocked to discover a Channel Catfish (~3 lbs.) |on the end of my line!!  I have never seen a catfish take a fly, but |was even more astounded that it had taken a dry fly!! | |I guess it just goes to show that fly fishing is always an adventure. |BTW, the bluegill action continued until dark once I got over the |shock of catching the catfish. | |David R. Felter |"The mind is like a parachute.  It doesn’t work if it’s not opened." |

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Love it! I have seen and caught catfish on a fly – nymph fished extremely slow on the bottom though.  It is a rare occurrence.

During the whitefly hatch in July and August on the Susquehanna river, catching catfish on drys and emergers is fairly common, although I have never caught one of the big cats I know are in the river when fishing on the surface.  After a while you can tell the difference between a catfish rise and a smallmouth rise and target either species.  The catfish fight more like an old tire – no match for the smallies. Mark Faulkner

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Lurking for 4 years!!??  Man, y

Frank, did ya catch any in AK? –Walt

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I have been using the Madame X tied in black on a size 10 hook in late summer and early fall for the past several years. It is *very* effective on trout from early September until the first hard frost. I think it represents a cricket, but it might just be an attactor. I havn’t tried it on warmwater fish, but I suspect it would be deadly on bass and sunfish. George Adams

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Lurking for 4 years!!??  Man, you must have the patience of a saint to stay out of some of these threads.  

<snipped It has tried my patience occassionally, but two little girls were taking too much of my time to get involved in a good (?) C&R discussion, or whether George was spamming, or fishing has become too high tech, or whether a seperate tying news group is a good idea (going back a couple of years), etc.  :-)     Anyway the girls are older and I have a _little_ more free time to become involved in the discussions.  So watch out!  :-) David R. Felter "The mind is like a parachute.  It doesn’t work if it’s not opened."

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It has tried my patience occassionally, but two little girls were taking too much of my time to get involved in a good (?) C&R discussion, or whether George was spamming, or fishing has become too high tech, or whether a seperate tying news group is a good idea (going back a couple of years), etc.  :-)

You do go back a ways.  The fact that you’re still here should be, well, disturbing to your family and friends. Anyway the girls are older and I have a _little_ more free time to become involved in the discussions.  So watch out!  :-)

I have two girls who were little once, but quite mysteriously have become young women who need to be shielded from certain attorneys in the old north state, lest their hearts be forever captured.  Anyhow, enjoy their presence now for they are too soon gone. Mark Faulkner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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I have two girls who were little once, but quite mysteriously have become young women who need to be shielded from certain attorneys in the old north state, lest their hearts be forever captured.  Anyhow, enjoy their presence now for they are too soon gone. Mark Faulkner

        you know, markey, i meant to talk with you about those little rascals; i mean, where could be the harm in a couple picture exchanges and a few nights reading the advance sheets together…         wayno, who wouldn’t *dare*. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Love it! I have seen and caught catfish on a fly – nymph fished extremely slow on the bottom though.  It is a rare occurrence. Now the important question – What’s the pattern for the MadamX? I know rubberlegs tend to drive Bluegill crazy. — Bill Endicott – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings.  I have been lurking in this group for about 4 years, but have been completely satisfied with just reading the different posts. Now I am ready to join in the melee with a report of my own. Being a flatlander my main quarry is the largemouth bass and the bluegill, and the other night (after work) I felt the need to bend a rod.  I went to a local farm pond to catch a few bluegill.  I grabbed my trusty 3 wt. and the appropriate boxes of flies to go after some wary bluegill.  I tied on a sponge spider and immediately caught several bluegill.  I decided to change flies and selected a Madame X to see if I could entice more bluegill to jump on my line. Imagine my surprise when my rod almost came out of my hands.  Before I knew what was happening my rod was bent over and my pile of slack line was beginning to disappear!  I knew I had a larger fish and figured it was a bass.  The problem was I didn’t know how big and whether, or not, it would break my 1.5 pound tippet.  After 20 minutes, or so, of playing the fish I was shocked to discover a Channel Catfish (~3 lbs.) on the end of my line!!  I have never seen a catfish take a fly, but was even more astounded that it had taken a dry fly!! I guess it just goes to show that fly fishing is always an adventure. BTW, the bluegill action continued until dark once I got over the shock of catching the catfish. David R. Felter "The mind is like a parachute.  It doesn’t work if it’s not opened." ______  GREAT!  Thanks for sharing it.  The Madam X was invented by John Foust and I sat right next to him while WE tied it together. He would ask, "What do you think of this?"  And, I’d say, tie it all forward, bring it back to make the head and the wings will explode . . . and he did.  John thought of adding the rubber legs.  Then we later went to the B-52 for the big salmon fly hatch on the Bitterroot.  Yes, John is a marvelous fly tier but I did help him create it, which is of great pride to me.  But John Foust deserves 95% of doing it all by himself.  He sure turned into a pretty good fly fisherman.  I have stories of John that will tickle your funny bone.  His is a funny man and a very smart one also. George — Mr. G. ‘all’s fair with fur or feather’ http://216.55.26.157/vchat/ http://www.gink.com http://www.rodbuilding.com (Bamboo Is Fun) http://www.xink.com 509-243-4100 or 5500

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am a ten year old begining fly tyer. my dad gived me a fly-tying kit for my birthday but i cant seem to tie flys very well. I am hoping to get people to send me flys in the mail along with telling me how to tie them. step by step if possible tie a cuple flys stopping part way done so i can see how each part should look like. I will try to send each of you who send me anything one of my gliter worms. its like a wooly bugger with shiny stuff on it. ive caught a 2 puond rainbow trout on it in the asable river in wilmingten ny if you put a return envelope i promise to send one but i only get$2 a week allowance so if i get a lot I can only get 6 stamps so it might take a while i will email everyone a thank you and let you know how many ive got from people. my dad says I cant give my hole address but in our small town this will work L.O.W. box 72 moriah,NY 12960 If you learn how to spell you could make $2.99 a week

  Mr. Perrone, You are out of line.  The youth is a 3rd or 4th grader.  I think he did a pretty good job of getting his message across.  Other than a couple of typo’s and lack of ‘ and case, I think it’s better written than a lot of messages from fully grown people.  If he learns to send it through a spell checker, would you be happier? Even then a couple of words would slip through as they sound the same but are spelled different.  He’s saying he will send a thank you for the help.  I have nephews who don’t send a thank you for xmas and b’day presents.  I think his parents are doing a good job of raising L.O.W. from the gist of the message. Bill

Response:

You are right.  I have a tendency to be a bit caustic with people who are careless with using the American-English language.  But it was obvious in the original post that this was a young person who was excited by fishing and getting some solid information about fly rod fishing. Adults are expected to do better with the language and communications.  The response you posted to lacked the latter. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am a ten year old begining fly tyer. my dad gived me a fly-tying kit for my birthday but i cant seem to tie flys very well. I am hoping to get people to send me flys in the mail along with telling me how to tie them. step by step if possible tie a cuple flys stopping part way done so i can see how each part should look like. I will try to send each of you who send me anything one of my gliter worms. its like a wooly bugger with shiny stuff on it. ive caught a 2 puond rainbow trout on it in the asable river in wilmingten ny if you put a return envelope i promise to send one but i only get$2 a week allowance so if i get a lot I can only get 6 stamps so it might take a while i will email everyone a thank you and let you know how many ive got from people. my dad says I cant give my hole address but in our small town this will work L.O.W. box 72 moriah,NY 12960 If you learn how to spell you could make $2.99 a week   Mr. Perrone, You are out of line.  The youth is a 3rd or 4th grader.  I think he did a pretty good job of getting his message across.  Other than a couple of typo’s and lack of ‘ and case, I think it’s better written than a lot of messages from fully grown people.  If he learns to send it through a spell checker, would you be happier? Even then a couple of words would slip through as they sound the same but are spelled different.  He’s saying he will send a thank you for the help.  I have nephews who don’t send a thank you for xmas and b’day presents.  I think his parents are doing a good job of raising L.O.W. from the gist of the message. Bill

Response:

Hey Bill, I agree wholeheartedly. I just wish we had more youngsters out there with his obvious passion.I thought his post was great and had no problem understanding what he meant. The RodMaker http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2865 http://members.tripod.com/~therodmaker/index.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am a ten year old begining fly tyer. my dad gived me a fly-tying kit for my birthday but i cant seem to tie flys very well. I am hoping to get people to send me flys in the mail along with telling me how to tie them. step by step if possible tie a cuple flys stopping part way done so i can see how each part should look like. I will try to send each of you who send me anything one of my gliter worms. its like a wooly bugger with shiny stuff on it. ive caught a 2 puond rainbow trout on it in the asable river in wilmingten ny if you put a return envelope i promise to send one but i only get$2 a week allowance so if i get a lot I can only get 6 stamps so it might take a while i will email everyone a thank you and let you know how many ive got from people. my dad says I cant give my hole address but in our small town this will work L.O.W. box 72 moriah,NY 12960 If you learn how to spell you could make $2.99 a week  Mr. Perrone, You are out of line.  The youth is a 3rd or 4th grader.  I think he did a pretty good job of getting his message across.  Other than a couple of typo’s and lack of ‘ and case, I think it’s better written than a lot of messages from fully grown people.  If he learns to send it through a spell checker, would you be happier? Even then a couple of words would slip through as they sound the same but are spelled different.  He’s saying he will send a thank you for the help.  I have nephews who don’t send a thank you for xmas and b’day presents.  I think his parents are doing a good job of raising L.O.W. from the gist of the message. Bill

Response:

Personally, I’m with Perrone.  Any ten year old with a computer knows how to capitalize a letter, for god sake.  This sounds like a scam to get all you soft-hearted old-timers to send a bunch of better than store bought flies to a cheap fisherman who is laughing all the way to the river. Mike

Response:

Personally, I’m with Perrone.  Any ten year old with a computer knows how to capitalize a letter, for god sake.  This sounds like a scam to get all you soft-hearted old-timers to send a bunch of better than store bought flies to a cheap fisherman who is laughing all the way to the river. Mike Honest to God I can’t believe people like yourself, To generalize that any 10yr. old with a computer knows how to compose a letter is ludicrous . Hell I know at least one 16yr.old on this NG that can’t

spell or punctuate correctly,not to mention all of the so-called adults who seem to have the same problem.  As far as this youngster attempting to scam anyone, If you had read his post closely you would have noticed that he was interested in learning to tie flies,he asked for instructions,and in return offered one of his own as a way of saying thanks.It is cynics & skeptics like yourself that keep society as a whole going two steps backward,while going only one step forward. Course these are just the ruminations& opinions of an aging ole rodmaker like myself. The RodMaker http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2865 http://members.tripod.com/~therodmaker/index.html

Response:

Question:

Looking for a  good campsite on a lake or river for fly fishing for trout in Denali,AK.  Will backpack a short distance to campsite.  Are there any cabins on lakes or rivers in or close by Denali that offer good fly fishing?  Thanks for your help!    

Response:

Try Every stream you come to you and you are sure to find some good fishing…. I was never dissapointed in Alaska..

Response:

Question:

On casting in the surf.. A long rod helps (I use a 9 1/2 foot 7 weight, a 10 footer would be better) and a stripping basket is a necessity.  I also tend towards pretty stout weighted eyes on streamers an lead-head charlies (Texas coast selection here) to keep the surf from knocking them around too much.  Be sure you hang around cuts through the bars even if you’re in the wash.. Good luck, Andy Schreckenghost

Response:

Anybody fly fish from the beach?  

There are two magazines, "Fly Fishing in Saltwater" and "Saltwater Fly Fishing", both have had articles on flyfishing from the beach.  There have also been articles detailing fly fishing from the California coast.  Fly Fishing in Saltwater also has a web site at: www.flyfishinsalt.com. While the site does not give all the information I would like about saltwater flyfishing, it is a good start.  Another web site is www.reel-time.com.  This is the Reel-Time, The Journal of Saltwater Fly fishing.  This is a pretty good site.  They have some good articles and an archive of articles that may just answer your fishing from the beach questions

Question:

  I am considering a trip to fly fish in Cuba. If I go I will be near Camaguay and was wondering if anyone has fished near there. Mostly what I need is the names of guides and water to fish.  Thanks    Phil. Political responses unneeded. —

Response:

  I am considering a trip to fly fish in Cuba. If I go I will be near Camaguay and was wondering if anyone has fished near there. Mostly what I need is the names of guides and water to fish.  Thanks    Phil. Political responses unneeded. —

I don’t know about water to fish but water to drink should be rain water ! — "The true Angler is content to fish alone" Brian Di Carlo

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I am considering a trip to fly fish in Cuba. If I go I will be near Camaguay and was wondering if anyone has fished near there. Mostly what I need is the names of guides and water to fish.  Thanks    Phil. Political responses unneeded. — I don’t know about water to fish but water to drink should be rain water ! — "The true Angler is content to fish alone" Brian Di Carlo

Panangling Travel servise has a Cuban destination for fly fishing for bones, tarpon, permit, snook, etc. They have a web page. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

Response:

Question:

My brother wants to buy a Renzetti Traveller.  Should I try to talk him out of it?  If so, should he get a Regal or a more expensive Renzetti?

IMO, no, its a very good vice for the money unless of course he has the money to buy the more expensive vice. (Regals ARE nice) Then just on principal he should get the more exensive vice. After all this is fly fishing <vbseg. Right now he is suffering with one of those $13 Indian vises, so he does need a new vise.

Yes he does I am bothered a little bit by the fact that the Traveller’s rotation does not lock.

If you don’t want to use the rotary feature (I don’t), just tighten the rotary mechanism against the post and it will lock. Is this a real handicap, or am I rationalizing my fidelity to my

Thompson Pro? You’re just rationalizing Wayne Knight Marietta GA                                              

Response:

writes: My brother wants to buy a Renzetti Traveller.  Should I try to talk him
out of it?  If so, should he get a Regal or a more expensive Renzetti? Right now he is suffering with one of those $13 Indian vises, so he does
need a new vise.
I am bothered a little bit by the fact that the Traveller’s rotation does
not lock.  Is this a real handicap, or am I rationalizing my fidelity to
my Thompson Pro?

I’ve used a Renzetti Traveller for more than three years now and love it! It should be noted that I got no real experience with any other vices, except a few Indian ones that didn’t last me long. I guess the locking could be an handicap, but I’ve never missed it for my tying (mostly saltwater and salmon). And it travels real well! Inge

Response:

: It should be noted that I got no real experience with any other vices, : except a few Indian ones that didn’t last me long. A good vice should last a lifetime, I always say. (Sorry, couldn’t resist…) — BW Brad Williams —

Response:

… I am bothered a little bit by the fact that the Traveller’s rotation does not lock.  Is this a real handicap, or am I rationalizing my fidelity to my Thompson Pro?

You can in fact, adjust the drag (to the point of locking) on the renzetti’s rotation using the 2 friction wheels. It’s not the most convenient system though. Personally, I use the traveller as my only vise. I do travel alot and often bring my tying case with me. The size and weight of the traveller are great for this. Otherwise, the traveller is a great vise for the money. Good jaws, large range and very functional, at 1/3rd the price of the rest of the renzetti line. rick

Response:

I’ve used everything from the Thompson A vise through the Renzetti, HMH, and Regal, and I’ve ended up with the Regal…it’s an absolutely foolproof vise,provides resting place for the left hand, is perfectly rotatable, esp. if Ingeset it up horizontally, can be used right-= or left- handed, has interchangeable heads, and can be had for a reasonable price.  The other vises are wonderful, too, but nothing beats the Regal in my view (for what it’s worth), and I’ve been tying flies for more than fifty years. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: My brother wants to buy a Renzetti Traveller.  Should I try to talk him out of it?  If so, should he get a Regal or a more expensive Renzetti? Right now he is suffering with one of those $13 Indian vises, so he does need a new vise. I am bothered a little bit by the fact that the Traveller’s rotation does not lock.  Is this a real handicap, or am I rationalizing my fidelity to my Thompson Pro? I’ve used a Renzetti Traveller for more than three years now and love it! It should be noted that I got no real experience with any other vices, except a few Indian ones that didn’t last me long. I guess the locking could be an handicap, but I’ve never missed it for my tying (mostly saltwater and salmon). And it travels real well! Inge

Response:

I have responded several times to questions about the Renzetti Traveller. It is wonderful.  The issue of the rotation not locking is a non issue. What makes the Renzetti system so nice is that the rotation of the hook shaft is central, due to the offset jaws.  Therefore, there is no tendency for the vice to rotate under load.  The other thing that is very nice about the Traveller that is not true of the higher priced Renzettis; it will rotate in both directions.  This is very useful if you tie ribbing reverse-wrapped over palmered hackle, such as in a Spey salmon or steelhead fly.   Crashjibe

Response:

writes: My brother wants to buy a Renzetti Traveller.  Should I try to talk him out of it?  If so, should he get a Regal or a more expensive Renzetti? Right now he is suffering with one of those $13 Indian vises, so he does need a new vise.

I have both a Regal and a Renzetti Traveller. I love the Renzetti. It works very well, is very well designed, and weighs only 8 ounces! Steve Rosenblum

Response:

I’m relatively new to tying.  After breaking my beginner $13 Indian vise, I bought a Renzetti Traveller.  I really like the Traveller–but admitedly I don’t have much experience for comparisons.   By the way, you CAN lock the rotation by increasing the drag sufficiently, although it’s not overwhelmingly convenient.

Response:

The Traveller is the BEST vise for someone upgrading from a beginners-type vise. The price is right, and it will be years before he outgrows the vise and feels he needs a more sophisticated one. And then he will have one for traveling and one for the home base!!!

Response:

My brother wants to buy a Renzetti Traveller.  Should I try to talk him out of it?  If so, should he get a Regal or a more expensive Renzetti? Right now he is suffering with one of those $13 Indian vises, so he does need a new vise. I am bothered a little bit by the fact that the Traveller’s rotation does not lock.  Is this a real handicap, or am I rationalizing my fidelity to my Thompson Pro? — Keep your stick on the ice.

Response:

I really enjoy tying with mine, it’s all I need in a vise.  

Response:

I really enjoy tying with mine, it’s all I need in a vise.  

Have you tried a Regal vise yet?  I have an Inex (their cheapest model) and I love it.  Sometimes I wish it were a rotary, but that’s only once and a while.  The spring loaded clamping method they use is really neat.  Just work the handle and insert a hook. One problem though.  If you don’t put the hook in enough, it may pop out and chip the tip of the jaws.  I did that twice then sent it back.  They fixed it for free, but made it clear that the next time I do that it will cost $25 for a new set of jaws.  Plus I have kids, so I have to find every hook I drop.  One flew over 10 feet out into the hall.  Thank goodness hooks are made out of ferrous (sp?) metal. I was wondering if other cam-type vises do this too?   A sunny day,      a box of midges,         and a wandering stream…   Man, this MUST be heaven!   <    Steve Kulpa    <<

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