Question:

Great story, Mu, thanks for sharing it. Bob

Response:

I be bringing up the rear here, but nonetheless, our best wishes to all roffians for a great Thanksgiving.  It has been a fun year in here and I’m just glad to be a small part of it.  I hope by next Thanksgiving to be able to say that I finally got to meet some of you at a clave somewhere. Best wishes, Frank and Daisy Church Elkhart, IN USAF RETIRED

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Thanksgiving eve, I turned in a miserable draft of my dissertation after many successive late nights, was a substitute teacher for my boss in a senior level physics course (which I totally botched since I was only half awake anyway) since he left for early vacation, then drove up north with a friend who had recently returned to town to visit his family for the holidays and a kid from Utah whose guitar playing in the back seat made for some great travel music. We got into the motel around 1 AM and the digital sign out front read -5 C.  A bit colder than we were expecting but we were going to fish.  We woke up about 1.5 hours later than we had planned but finally ended up at the stream.  Tom only recently began fly fishing and owns a 5 wt rod so I told him to bring his spinning setup.  Utah had no equipment of any kind so I lent him a spinning rod and some leaky neoprenes.  He’d be fine as long as he didn’t wade deeper than the crotch. Neither had been to this river before.  They were immediately enchanted by it.  We were hoping for steelhead, but actually found lots of salmon and saw only one steelhead scooting upstream.  Oh well, I suppose it’s going to be salmon then. I had tied on a weighted black stonefly at the car. I gave them each a homemade spinner and they were on their way.  Most of the time I scouted ahead and told them where to cast. They were pleased to be there in the presence of large fish.  Well it went on like this for a while and I could see they were not quite used to seeing the angles, as it were, and I had to tell them where to position themselves for the best possible presentation.  They got the hang of it and I was typically 10-20 yards downstream, looking for more fish while they were happy in their unsuccessful attempts to lure the chinooks to the hook.  Within an hour, it warmed up enough so that ice was no longer forming on their guides.  I wasn;t doing much fishing and my guides were ice free but there was ice on my fly line.  At first I thought it was some inexplicable crud:  maybe the putty indicator I sometimes use; maybe the line had come into contact with some sort of solvent; it was hard to tell; the ice was very thin and my fingers numb. At one point when my buds were thoroughly engrossed with a particular pod of salmon I tied on a dropper from the bend of the stonefly and attached a chartreuse bunny strip with a purple crystal chenille body.  A lone male was cruising just a short distance away and I got a solid hookup.  At first sight in the water it looked like a jack (confused immature male that somehow swam upstream a bit too early in life – sounds like someone you know?). My friends quickly caught up and were quite excited.  Tom got his first experience at netting a salmon.  We took a pic of a very handsomely colored cock fish.  It was actually a mature fish, small for a chinook, about 12 lbs.  But this is a small river which receives no fish plantings and it looked about average size among the fish we saw that day. Each of my friends at one point had a fish on but both lost them. Well, we had to head home soon after that, as Tom’s relatives like to have a mid-afternoon Thanksgiving dinner.  But it was a great way to spend Thanksgiving morning.  Later I had turkey at my pastor’s place just before hopping onto a plane to Paris where I devoured all manner of sea creatures raw and cooked.  It’s amazing how animals that eat the detritus off the ocean floor can taste so good. Mu Young Lee Ann Arbor, MI  USA

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Thanks Walt, and the same to you! What fly do you use for a large 8 point buck? i just tie on a pink deer tail….. with a bit of scent  of course <g –ww

That just might look a little spiffy coming out of that barrel!

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Stan Gula writes: (sentimental stuff snipped, sniffff) I look forward to fishing and swapping lies with you all again. Just remember to bring some more of that Herracarrera Annandjoe stuff.  <g

Y’all stole a Porsche from Ann and Joe?  Maybe next time, try some Herradura Anejo….I guess that’s what it was – hopefully, you’re not asking him to bring some more "cara de hereje (like) anoche"…<G. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Dave

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Happy Thanksgiving to ROFF. May your lines continue to be tight and your wit continue to be sharp. — Citizen Fisherman …really making an effort to play nice…

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your fiiend in paradise wayno

i love typos <g –ww

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Same to ya Walt, and to all my roffian partners in crime, happy turkey day and let’s count our blessings. From the Church family…. Frank, Daisy and Guts the Cat, who not quite in the spirit of Thanksgiving, sends a big wet raspberry to Kipper the hound. )

Kipper the hound responds ARRRROOOOOO, which loosely translated means C’mon over to Illinois sometime Guts, we’ll do lunch. Happy Thanksgiving to all ROFFians from Ken, Kristine and Kipper. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

and tight lines to all this weekend! –Walt

Ditto!! Happy Thanksgiving to all.  May your biggest concerns all weekend be the seating charts for all your friends and family at the dinner table! Best wishes to all. Zippy Who has plenty to be thankful for but still wonders why he has had to sit at the small table with the "young ones" for 38 years in a row?

Response:

Stan Gula writes: (sentimental stuff snipped, sniffff) I look forward to fishing and swapping lies with you all again. Just remember to bring some more of that Herracarrera Annandjoe stuff. <g Dave

Damn, I was just drinking that crap in a mexican restaurant/bar in San Diego.  Thanks a ton for introducing me to that, Stan.   Scooter (Saving up for a new liver)

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wayno writes: yes, indeed, waldo, the same to you.    and the same to all my brothers and sisters in cyberspace. best wishes for a moist turkey, warm hearts, and long life from your fiiend in paradise wayno

yes what he said.  and go fishing if you can. dave

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Stan Gula writes:

(sentimental stuff snipped, sniffff) I look forward to fishing and swapping lies with you all again.

Just remember to bring some more of that Herracarrera Annandjoe stuff.  <g Dave

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and tight lines to all this weekend! –Walt Thanks Walt, and the same to you! What fly do you use for a large 8 point buck? Steve Who is fishing with his 30-06 this weekend. Talk about deer hunting – just had a co-worker regal me about his ten point buck and missing a 14 when his arrow ricocheted off of a piece of unseen barbed wire.  May you have better luck. Happy turkey day to our southern neighbours – be well.

Thanks Petah!

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happy thanksgiving to all…me and the family are off to the mountains for a few days… thanx to folks on the list that helped convence me to get up to the clave in yellowstone this last summer.. i had a great time…beautiful park..nice fishing…looking foward to the upcomming year and the many fishing opportunities it may bring  …… richard / colorado

Response:

and tight lines to all this weekend! –Walt

And same to you and the rest of ROFF. TC, R

Response:

Same to ya Walt, and to all my roffian partners in crime, happy turkey day and let’s count our blessings. From the Church family…. Frank, Daisy and Guts the Cat, who not quite in the spirit of Thanksgiving, sends a big wet raspberry to Kipper the hound. )

Response:

and tight lines to all this weekend! –Walt Thanks Walt, and the same to you! What fly do you use for a large 8 point buck? Steve Who is fishing with his 30-06 this weekend.

_____  A Muddler Hollow Point. Gee Gee

Response:

Thanks Walt, and the same to you! What fly do you use for a large 8 point buck?

i just tie on a pink deer tail….. with a bit of scent  of course <g –ww

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and tight lines to all this weekend! –Walt

        yes, indeed, waldo, the same to you.         and the same to all my brothers and sisters in cyberspace. best wishes for a moist turkey, warm hearts, and long life from your fiiend in paradise wayno

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… What fly do you use for a large 8 point buck? i just tie on a pink deer tail….. with a bit of scent  of course <g

No wonder those waders stunk to high heaven. — Ken Fortenberry

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and tight lines to all this weekend! –Walt Thanks Walt, and the same to you! What fly do you use for a large 8 point buck? Steve Who is fishing with his 30-06 this weekend.

Talk about deer hunting – just had a co-worker regal me about his ten point buck and missing a 14 when his arrow ricocheted off of a piece of unseen barbed wire.  May you have better luck. Happy turkey day to our southern neighbours – be well. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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and tight lines to all this weekend! –Walt

And thanks to all the clavesters I got to meet this year: Walt, Tom Brown, Dave LaCourse, Dave Tatosian, George Adams, Frank Reid, Bob Rose, Gary McMeekin, Paul Goodwin, Tom Littleton, Handyman Mike, Scooter, Peter Charles, Mike Makela, Indian Joe, Zimbo, Jeff Miller, DavePA, JeffC, John Russell, Asadi, Natty, Vince Norris, Frank Church, Dave Price, Dave Bottom and the others whose names I’m forgetting at the moment.  Well met gentlemen, and I look forward to fishing and swapping lies with you all again. Loosen your belts and have another slice of pie for me! –Stan

Response:

and tight lines to all this weekend! –Walt

Thanks Walt, and the same to you! What fly do you use for a large 8 point buck? Steve Who is fishing with his 30-06 this weekend.

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If I were to say, "Walt?  I hope you don’t over eat on Thanksgiving," would be true. The word, "Happy," when it comes to you is a bit mute because you’re usually always happy visiting Roff.  Does one wish you a "Happier Thanksgiving?"  No.  I think a fond thought from me, to you is that your waders don’t leak on Thanksgiving Day is enough to give thanks for, that I thought of that for you and the wish came true.  How are you not to know? Wishes are as fleeting as the tides of Roff.  They come, they go. In your case I’m going to make an exception.  I hope one of these wishes sticks and if you have one left over . . . send it to Harrison. Finally, there is the infamous Tom Brown.  What can Gladys and I say except that we hope you’re not having left over Camel, Tom?  You can’t have any ham but your free to choke the turkey.  Remember the dressing goes inside the bird this year. Eat well North Carolina and give thanks the Indian Joe lusted for your daughters and not for your scalps. Take care North Carolina, George

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and tight lines to all this weekend! –Walt — Wilson Creek Outfitters, Ezflyfish.com, Inc. 115 East Union Street; Morganton, NC 28655 http://www.ezflyfish.com

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and tight lines to all this weekend!

Eat sh errrr turkey. .  . . ~  Happy Turkey Day to you too Walt. — Warren www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

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.  . . ~

is that a worm hangin’ outta yer mouth? –walt <g

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.  . . ~ is that a worm hangin’ outta yer mouth?

Damn straight.  It’s all about the Mescal baby!  The worm is the best part because it proves that you did a good job by just getting to the bottom and are drunk enough to actually eat the worm.  Mission accomplished I’ll be fishing on Turkey Day unless my friend and I do the bachelor’s Thanksgiving thing, join forces and cook up a turkey.  Hell, we will either hunt or fish as well as cook up the turkey hopefully.  If all else fails, it is a Hungry Man Turkey Dinner and a day of fishing for me. Ahhhh yes, the virtues of bachelorhood and no family in the area.  Truly something to give thanks for while out fishing or hunting.  I am really going to enjoy the break from school too.  And if things couldn’t get any better, I have my daughter Friday through Monday and get her today too. <g — Warren www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

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Question:

Response to stress signals put out by hooked fish, – to make a meal out of the hooked fish – to eat anything regurgitated – to eat the fly/lure if is visible – and perhaps, curiosity.

Reflexive schooling response?

Response:

Response to stress signals put out by hooked fish, – to make a meal out of the hooked fish – to eat anything regurgitated – to eat the fly/lure if is visible – and perhaps, curiosity. Reflexive schooling response?

Exactly.  Schooling is a behavior that has many rewards.  Thus, fish that school have survived to pass on the tendency to school. Trout are Darwinian.

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I’ve seen spawners do that.  Lots of times there will be two males hanging around a female.  Of course I’ve only caught spawners by accident bruce h

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J. Butler writes: I noticed when I hooked a trout in a small stream that as it ran it was flanked on either side by two of its fellows.

(snip)   Land locked salmon and brook trout display the same behavior.  My theory:  the trout on the hook emits a distress signal of some sort and the other trout are there to pick up anything regurgitated.  I have seen bigger trout actually attack the hooked trout.  In waters that contain trout and pike, it is not unusual for a pike to come up and take the entire trout in its mouth. Dave

Response:

I have seen bigger trout actually attack the hooked trout.  In waters that contain trout and pike, it is not unusual for a pike to come up and take the entire trout in its mouth.

Was in the local shop last week listening to the owner’s stories about bonefishing in Abacos.   His boat was in the midst of a large school of bones, and large sharks were beginning to enter the school and snap off hooked fish.   He claims (and this is fishing shop talk) that if he watched his hooked fish and a shark came near, he could give the fish enough line to swim normally, and the shark would swim past and search other prey. Joe F.

Response:

He claims (and this is fishing shop talk) that if he watched his hooked fish and a shark came near, he could give the fish enough line to swim normally, and the shark would swim past and search other prey.

I have observed this with bass and hooked bluegill on several occasions. My own interpretation is that the big fish is looking for a wounded or ailing little fish to eat rather than trying to track down a healthy one, the latter being much harder to catch. –Steve

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -J. Butler writes: I noticed when I hooked a trout in a small stream that as it ran it was flanked on either side by two of its fellows. (snip)   Land locked salmon and brook trout display the same behavior.  My theory:  the trout on the hook emits a distress signal of some sort and the other trout are there to pick up anything regurgitated.  I have seen bigger trout actually attack the hooked trout.  In waters that contain trout and pike, it is not unusual for a pike to come up and take the entire trout in its mouth. Dave

Two years ago I was fishing the Thompson R. in N.W. Montana. While bringing in a small rainbow I had a bull trout (I assume) grab said fish and drop down to the stream bottom. Couldn’t budge him and he wouldnt let go. Eventually had to bust the 5x tippet. Have also seen smallmouth feed on minnows regurgitated by a hooked fish. G.Cleveland

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Zimbo writes: I have observed this with bass and hooked bluegill on several occasions. My own interpretation is that the big fish is looking for a wounded or ailing little fish to eat rather than trying to track down a healthy one, the latter being much harder to catch.

But, I have seen small fish follow the bigger hooked fish.  I had on a 20 inch brook trout and had 12 – 15 inch trout following its every move.  (????) Dave

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George Cleveland writes: Two years ago I was fishing the Thompson R. in N.W. Montana. While bringing in a small rainbow I had a bull trout (I assume) grab said fish and drop down to the stream bottom. Couldn’t budge him and he wouldnt let go. Eventually had to bust the 5x tippet.

I got into a large bull trout on the East Fork of the South Fork of the Salmon River.  The guide got a "glimpse" of him as he raced by and went to the bottom of a fairly deep pool.  I too could not budge him and had to break the 5X FC . It is illegal to intentionally fish for the bull in Idaho.  It is a protected species.   I’ve caught Dolly Vardens on the Aleutians in Alaska, but they were’nt anywhere near as mean as the ones I saw in Idaho! Dave

Response:

I have observed this with bass and hooked bluegill on several occasions. My own interpretation is that the big fish is looking for a wounded or ailing little fish to eat rather than trying to track down a healthy one, the latter being much harder to catch.

No doubt about that.  But I imagined the OP was talking about fish the same size swimming with the hooked one.  I’m kind of curious about that too.

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I have observed this with bass and hooked bluegill on several occasions. My own interpretation is that the big fish is looking for a wounded or ailing little fish to eat rather than trying to track down a healthy one, the latter being much harder to catch. No doubt about that.  But I imagined the OP was talking about fish the same size swimming with the hooked one.  I’m kind of curious about that too.

i believe the flee response of fish is often similar enough to a feeding response (especially for saltwater species)… also, i think some of it might be curiousity…. like wondering why the hooked fish is behaving so strangly… plus, often hooked fish will regurgitate food items… so a fish could be following picking off bits of food.  without being a fish it’s always gonna be guesses about the exact reason for their behavior. chris

Response:

 Has anyone else observed other fish accompanying a caught one?

I reckon they just see a mate in distress and attck him while he’s down. One less fish to have to fight about over food & sexual partners. But then that’s just what zoology drummed into me for years and years. They probably got it wrong. Ari Ari Bert                                        Gaelle Bert +27 (0) 83 232 9903                             +27 (0) 83 236 5308 Flyfishing Corner +27 (0) 11 447 7230                             Shop 94, Admirals Court +27 (0) 11 882 8537 (fax)                       Cnr Craddock & Tyrwhitt www.troutfishing.co.za                                Street, Rosebank P.O.Box 79067 Senderwood 2145 South Africa

Response:

I have observed this with bass and hooked bluegill on several occasions. My own interpretation is that the big fish is looking for a wounded or ailing little fish to eat rather than trying to track down a healthy one, the latter being much harder to catch. No doubt about that.  But I imagined the OP was talking about fish the same size swimming with the hooked one.  I’m kind of curious about that too.

I’ve seen this more than once and put it down to this: Response to stress signals put out by hooked fish, – to make a meal out of the hooked fish – to eat anything regurgitated – to eat the fly/lure if is visible – and perhaps, curiosity. It is unquestionably not top "help out" as fish do not have the brain capacity for altruism.  All their responses are evolved around, eat, avoid being eaten, and procreation. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

No doubt about that.  But I imagined the OP was talking about fish the same size swimming with the hooked one.  I’m kind of curious about that too. I’ve seen this more than once and put it down to this: Response to stress signals put out by hooked fish, – to make a meal out of the hooked fish – to eat anything regurgitated – to eat the fly/lure if is visible – and perhaps, curiosity.

Seems like a complete list to me. I can’t remember seeing this with trout. Maybe with stockers? It is more common with some other fishes. I’ve noticed it particularly with Smallmouth. The fish following generally appear VERY agitated. Smallmouth have a tendency to regurgitate when hooked.   It is unquestionably not top "help out" as fish do not have the brain capacity for altruism.   All their responses are evolved around, eat, avoid being eaten, and procreation.

There are a few others. For example, seeking a suitable temperature sometimes takes precedence over everything else. Willi

Response:

Could the fellows simply have accompanied the one they thought had found a meal and tried to chase the same source of food without seeing it?

That’s what my hypothesis is. This has happened to me numerous times. One time I had one hooked that got away, as soon as he swam off another took the hook. It was very cool to see. Was the trout you caught a rainbow? It seems to me RB’s exhibit this behaviour more than others. I might be mistaken though. Jim

Response:

I noticed when I hooked a trout in a small stream that as it ran it was flanked on either side by two of its fellows.  They did not follow just away from me, by towards me and in an arc the caught one swam.  Has anyone else observed other fish accompanying a caught one?  Does anyone have an hypothesis as to why other fish would accompany a caught one?  Could the accompanying fish been unaware the other had been caught and just exhibit schooling behavior?  Could the accompaning fish been aware their caught fellow was in distress and aiding it in some way?  Could the fellows simply have accompanied the one they thought had found a meal and tried to chase the same source of food without seeing it?  Did they simply respond to the caught one’s flight and accompany it away from danger?  Too bad I wasn’t fishing a dropper to pick up one of its mates!

Response:

Question:

…reading a bit of ol bartram’s writings from the late 1700s (e-document on a UNC web site noted at the bottom of this post)and ran upon the following… southern fly-fishing heritage, eh? course, like most furriners, ol bartram didn’t know a trout from whatever it was those boys were dappin out from under the river bank in Florida… "….covered with the white hair of a deer’s tail, shreds of a red garter, and some particoloured feathers…." Fascinating.  Thanks for posting it. JR

thanks jeffie…. bartram’s travels is a classic….. well worth the read. –waldo, hoping i still have a copy somewheres…

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Appreciate posts on FF history, thanx. Dave

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Jeff  I missed the post explaing UnC  web to read early Bartram—-please offer again– Playing tennis thru Nov 11 but if you are interested in a western N.C. trip after that   let me know–only one  proviso ( a legal term I think )   motel rooms cannot be exited before six in morning.–Jeff and IJ sharinmg motel room-at 2:30 AM  AM Jeff showers and says I’ve had enought sleep  let"s o  – IJ ask it’s raining and dark and foggy and the next three hour drive is all curves–what the hell are we going to do in Graham Co. N.C at five Am in the mornimng??   Jeff yea but we will miss most of the traffic.  IJ

Response:

Playing tennis thru Nov 11 but if you are interested in a western N.C. trip after that   let me know–only one  proviso ( a legal term I think ) motel rooms cannot be exited before six in morning.–Jeff and IJ sharinmg motel room-at 2:30 AM  AM Jeff showers and says I’ve had enought sleep  let"s o  – IJ ask it’s raining and dark and foggy and the next three hour drive is all curves–what the hell are we going to do in Graham Co. N.C at five Am in the mornimng??   Jeff yea but we will miss most of the traffic.  IJ

I believe that somehow I must be related to Jeff Miller. I’m off to call my mom. –Steve

Response:

i think this is what you wanted, but not sure…  http://docsouth.unc.edu/nc/bartram/bartram.html …i’m probably not gonna be able to get back to the mountains before christmas… but i might get ol pj and make a visit to you and that bass pond you keep braggin about… we’d arrive early and leave late, eat all your food, and drink your whisky… and since jim’s comin, you might wanna warn dene too… i hear it’s nice in wilmington this time of year… jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –        The electronic edition is a part of the UNC-CH digitization project, Documenting the American South.

Response:

…reading a bit of ol bartram’s writings from the late 1700s (e-document on a UNC web site noted at the bottom of this post)and ran upon the following… southern fly-fishing heritage, eh? course, like most furriners, ol bartram didn’t know a trout from whatever it was those boys were dappin out from under the river bank in Florida…

"….covered with the white hair of a deer’s tail, shreds of a red garter, and some particoloured feathers…."   Fascinating.  Thanks for posting it. JR

Response:

That ‘delicious food’ part doesn’t seem to fit, does it? riverman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …reading a bit of ol bartram’s writings from the late 1700s (e-document on a UNC web site noted at the bottom of this post)and ran upon the following… southern fly-fishing heritage, eh? course, like most furriners, ol bartram didn’t know a trout from whatever it was those boys were dappin out from under the river bank in Florida… jeff <Page 108 "ON my return, I found some of my companions fishing for trout, round about the edges of the floating nymphaea, and not unsuccessfully, having then caught more than sufficient for us all. As the method of taking these fish is curious and singular, I shall just mention it. THEY are taken with a hook and line, but without any bait. Two people are in a little canoe, one sitting in the stern to steer, and the other near the bow, having a rod ten or twelve feet in length, to one end of which is tied a strong line, about twenty inches in length, to which is fastened three large hooks, back to back. These are fixed very securely, and covered with the white hair of a deer’s tail, shreds of a red garter, and some particoloured feathers, all which form a tuft, or tassel, nearly as large as one’s fist, and entirely cover and conceal the hooks:

this is called a bob. The steersman paddles softly, and proceeds slowly along shore, keeping the

boat parallel to it, at a distance just sufficient to admit the fisherman to reach the edge of

the floating weeds along shore: he now ingeniously swings the bob backwards and forwards, just above the surface, and sometimes tips the water with it; when the unfortunate cheated trout

instantly springs from under the weeds, and seizes the supposed prey. Thus he is caught without a

possibility of escape, unless he break the hooks, line, or rod, which he, however, sometime does

by dint of strength; but, to prevent this, the fisherman used to the sport is careful not to

raise the reed suddenly up, but jerks it instantly backwards, then steadily drags the sturdy reluctant

fish to the side of the < Page 109 canoe, and with a sudden upright jerk brings him into it. THE head of this fish makes about one third of his length, and

consequently the mouth is very large: birds, fish, frogs, and even serpents, are frequently found in its stomach. THE trout is of lead colour, inclining to a deep blue, and marked with

transverse waved lists, of a deep slate colour, and when fully grown, has a cast of red, or brick colour. The fins, with the tail, which is large, and beautifully formed, are of a light

reddish purple, or flesh colour, the whole body is covered with large scales. But what is most singular,

this fish is remarkably ravenous; nothing living, that he can seize upon, escapes his jaws, and the opening

and extending of the branchiostega, at the moment he rises to the surface to seize his prey,

discovering his bright red gills, through the transparent waters, give him a very terible appearance. Indeed

it may be observed, that all fish of prey have this opening and covering of the gills very large, in

order to discharge the great quantity of water, which they take in at their mouth, when they

strike at their prey. This fish is nearly cuniform, the body tapering gradually from the breast to the

tail, and lightly compressed on each side. They frequently weigh fifteen, twenty and thirty pounds, and are delicious food. …quoted from Travels Through North & South Carolina, Georgia, East & West

Florida, the Cherokee Country, the Extensive Territories of the Muscogulges, or Creek Confederacy, and the

Country of the Chactaws; Containing An Account of the Soil and Natural Productions of Those Regions,

Together with Observations on the Manners of the Indians. Embellished with Copper-Plates (spine) Bartram’s Travels William Bartram xxxiv, 522 p., ill. PHILADELPHIA: PRINTED BY JAMES & JOHNSON. M, DCC, XCI. Call number VC917 B29 (North Carolina Collection, University of North

Carolina at Chapel Hill) http://docsouth.unc.edu/nc/bartram/bartram.html —–        The electronic edition is a part of the UNC-CH digitization

project, Documenting the American South. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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…reading a bit of ol bartram’s writings from the late 1700s (e-document on a UNC web site noted at the bottom of this post)and ran upon the following… southern fly-fishing heritage, eh? course, like most furriners, ol bartram didn’t know a trout from whatever it was those boys were dappin out from under the river bank in Florida… jeff <Page 108         "ON my return, I found some of my companions fishing for trout, round about the edges of the floating nymphaea, and not unsuccessfully, having then caught more than sufficient for us all. As the method of taking these fish is curious and singular, I shall just mention it.         THEY are taken with a hook and line, but without any bait. Two people are in a little canoe, one sitting in the stern to steer, and the other near the bow, having a rod ten or twelve feet in length, to one end of which is tied a strong line, about twenty inches in length, to which is fastened three large hooks, back to back. These are fixed very securely, and covered with the white hair of a deer’s tail, shreds of a red garter, and some particoloured feathers, all which form a tuft, or tassel, nearly as large as one’s fist, and entirely cover and conceal the hooks: this is called a bob. The steersman paddles softly, and proceeds slowly along shore, keeping the boat parallel to it, at a distance just sufficient to admit the fisherman to reach the edge of the floating weeds along shore: he now ingeniously swings the bob backwards and forwards, just above the surface, and sometimes tips the water with it; when the unfortunate cheated trout instantly springs from under the weeds, and seizes the supposed prey. Thus he is caught without a possibility of escape, unless he break the hooks, line, or rod, which he, however, sometime does by dint of strength; but, to prevent this, the fisherman used to the sport is careful not to raise the reed suddenly up, but jerks it instantly backwards, then steadily drags the sturdy reluctant fish to the side of the < Page 109 canoe, and with a sudden upright jerk brings him into it.         THE head of this fish makes about one third of his length, and consequently the mouth is very large: birds, fish, frogs, and even serpents, are frequently found in its stomach. THE trout is of lead colour, inclining to a deep blue, and marked with transverse waved lists, of a deep slate colour, and when fully grown, has a cast of red, or brick colour. The fins, with the tail, which is large, and beautifully formed, are of a light reddish purple, or flesh colour, the whole body is covered with large scales. But what is most singular, this fish is remarkably ravenous; nothing living, that he can seize upon, escapes his jaws, and the opening and extending of the branchiostega, at the moment he rises to the surface to seize his prey, discovering his bright red gills, through the transparent waters, give him a very terible appearance. Indeed it may be observed, that all fish of prey have this opening and covering of the gills very large, in order to discharge the great quantity of water, which they take in at their mouth, when they strike at their prey. This fish is nearly cuniform, the body tapering gradually from the breast to the tail, and lightly compressed on each side. They frequently weigh fifteen, twenty and thirty pounds, and are delicious food. …quoted from Travels Through North & South Carolina, Georgia, East & West Florida, the Cherokee Country, the Extensive Territories of the Muscogulges, or Creek Confederacy, and the Country of the Chactaws; Containing An Account of the Soil and Natural Productions of Those Regions, Together with Observations on the Manners of the Indians. Embellished with Copper-Plates (spine) Bartram’s Travels William Bartram xxxiv, 522 p., ill. PHILADELPHIA: PRINTED BY JAMES & JOHNSON. M, DCC, XCI. Call number VC917 B29 (North Carolina Collection, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill) http://docsouth.unc.edu/nc/bartram/bartram.html         The electronic edition is a part of the UNC-CH digitization project, Documenting the American South.

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Question:

Anyone out here from Oregon?  Would like to know a few good spots for flyfishing in the Portland Metro area. Thanks! Brent

–I vote that you drive the Columbia river gorge to the mouth of the Deschutes river.   It’s exactly 100 miles from Portland, it should take you 1 and 3/4 hours.  In the latter part of July the summer fish will be there….hang on and be ready to swim, these are some of the meanest steelhead around. Sharp Hooks, Pat Holdzit Fishing Products Inc. http://www.holdzit.com Before you buy.

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Anyone out here from Oregon?  Would like to know a few good spots for flyfishing in the Portland Metro area. Thanks! Brent

Trillium Lake for stcok trout or Hagg Lake southwest of metro area for smallmouth bass.

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<< Anyone out here from Oregon?  Would like to know a few good spots for flyfishing in the Portland Metro area. Thanks! Brent How far from the Metro area would you go? "Reality is an escape for people who don’t (fly) fish"

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… "Reality is an escape for people who don’t (fly) fish"

"Reality is the leading cause of stress among those who are in touch with it."                        -Jane Wagner- — Ken Fortenberry

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Anyone out here from Oregon?  Would like to know a few good spots for flyfishing in the Portland Metro area. Thanks! Brent

I  would make the drive to the Deschutes.  Or an hour closer is the McKenzie.  If you just want to kill an hour or two, head down to where the Clackamas meets the Willamette and catch a few warmwater fish.  If you feel like chasing steelhead, then the Clackamas, Sandy, Salmon are all good. Now if you would just like to sit back and cyber-fish,  click this link and see if you can figure out how to catch the trout swimming across your PC monitor… http://www.AquaHabitat.com/cyberquarium.html There is one other alternative: build your own lake and catch great fish  right out your backdoor. enjoy! Before you buy.

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Anyone out here from Oregon?  Would like to know a few good spots for flyfishing in the Portland Metro area. Thanks! Brent I  would make the drive to the Deschutes.  Or an hour closer is the McKenzie.

The McKenzie is an hour closer than the Deschutes from Portland??? Isn’t the McKenzie down by Eugene?      - Ken

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone out here from Oregon?  Would like to know a few good spots for flyfishing in the Portland Metro area. Thanks! Brent I  would make the drive to the Deschutes.  Or an hour closer is the McKenzie. The McKenzie is an hour closer than the Deschutes from Portland??? Isn’t the McKenzie down by Eugene?      - Ken

Yeah the McKenzie is at the north end of Eugene,  it takes me about an hour and a half to get there from portland, if the cops aren’t thick! Before you buy.

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Anyone out here from Oregon?  Would like to know a few good spots for flyfishing in the Portland Metro area. Thanks! Brent

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Anyone out here from Oregon?  Would like to know a few good spots for flyfishing in the Portland Metro area.

The Sandy and Salmon rivers to the east and the Trask and Wilson rivers to the west.  Some will tell you to go to the Deschutes, but I have a problem calling a 3 hour drive being in the Metro area. There are a ton of rivers within a 3 hour drive. Good luck,      - Ken

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Question:

    Lately I have been having the worst kind of luck.. the kind only a newbie can have I have attended some fly courses and been watching the videos and the river where I live (calgary and the bow river) I have meandered the river watching the hatches and notching the pools and riffles along the river but only sporadic luck so far..perhaps the ones I catch are mentally challenged?? I know that I am matching the hatches and when the water shows no surface action am trying nymphs that the local fly shop has on their board of recommendations…. any help would be appreciated from any seasoned fly folks..especially if you can pass on some advice on nymphing techniques.. I believe that i am doing something wrong but am not sure what thanks for the help .      Pierre

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Have only fished the lovely Bow wilth a guide. (Dave Campbell, does any bodu know whats happed to him?)  The Bow only becomes productive thru and below Calgary, after it develops a food chain.  Divide the larger water into many smaller waters visually and fish these smaller divisions as if they were small waters.  Also strongly consider, streamers there .  Especially large 4-6 black wooly buggers to see if you can move some fish.  Oldies have exactly the same fishing experience you do, they just lie about it. Schuhfly

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   Lately I have been having the worst kind of luck.. the kind only a newbie can have I have attended some fly courses and been watching the videos and the river where I live (calgary and the bow river) I have meandered the river watching the hatches and notching the pools and riffles along the river but only sporadic luck so far..perhaps the ones I catch are mentally challenged?? I know that I am matching the hatches and when the water shows no surface action am trying nymphs that the local fly shop has on their board of recommendations…. any help would be appreciated from any seasoned fly folks..especially if you can pass on some advice on nymphing techniques.. I believe that i am doing something wrong but am not sure what thanks for the help .     Pierre

Shoot Pierre…you’ve been occupying your time in and around flyfishing. This is not bad luck, this is exceptionally good luck.  Catching fish is such a small part of it….and it will come,  you’re just paying your dues… Bag the videos and courses though, IMO. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

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Question:

OK – Now that I have you attention. I looking at buying a new flylline,  the guy  in the shop reckons Mastery flylines are the way to go – are they better than the 444 cortland? If you have any other recomendations I would appreciate it. In addition I am considering buying a  5-6 weight  5 piece , 8′6 Shakespeare  fly rod-  they aren’t a sage but for the price (around $NZ 165) they seem OK.  Does anyone out there own one – if so what do you think of it? PS could you reply to my email addess as my News Feed is sporadic AT BEST. Cheers Steve Christchurch NEW ZEALAND- The place where the BIG   trout live.  

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I bought Cortland Lazer Line last year, for $50 it made me a pro!  No memory, just great.  I recommend it! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK – Now that I have you attention. I looking at buying a new flylline,  the guy  in the shop reckons Mastery flylines are the way to go – are they better than the 444 cortland? If you have any other recomendations I would appreciate it. In addition I am considering buying a  5-6 weight  5 piece , 8′6 Shakespeare  fly rod-  they aren’t a sage but for the price (around $NZ 165) they seem OK.  Does anyone out there own one – if so what do you think of it? PS could you reply to my email addess as my News Feed is sporadic AT BEST. Cheers Steve Christchurch NEW ZEALAND- The place where the BIG   trout live.  

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ASS to removing the hook,simply freeze the area with ice,then pull it with a piece of monofilament at the bend of the hook while pushing the eye of the hook down.hope this helps!!!  :0

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ASS to removing the hook,simply freeze the area with ice,then pull it with a piece of monofilament at the bend of the hook while pushing the eye of the hook down.hope this helps!!!  :0

One can only hope the hook was debarbed. And I think perhaps we can all agree that in this case C & R is the best approach….unless you want to give it a good whack to dispatch it…. ohh man I must really be bored

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Question:

Last month someone on this newsgroup posted an inquiry regarding where to find appropriately sized waders for children. Unfortunately, I can’t remember the name/address of the poster. I believe I referred him/her to LL Bean, Cabela, or Damsel Fly. Yesterday I received a catalog from "The Global Flyfisher" in Northbrook, Illinois which lists "Fly Tech Youth Waders" which sound like exactly what this person was looking for. The listing in the catalog: "Finally, Fly Tech brings us an affordable neoprene youth wader! These youth waders have everything adult waders have. Made of 3.5mm Neoprene with a high back and adjustable suspenders. They have a large handwarmer pocket, padded knee pads, Hypalon soles, 3-D rings for accessories. Gravel guards and repair kit included. Brown." Comes in Small, Medium, and Large (they include a sizing chart). Price= $65.00 Phone: 800-457-7026 I have no ties to this company and have not seen the waders myself except in a picture, but I thought if the person was still out there looking for waders for their kid this might be the ticket.

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I’d like to hear a serious discussion of peripheral gear…waders and boots.  Let me start by telling those what I have found out then pose some questions.  Stocking foot waders seem to be more versatile than booted waders i.e. your stocking foots can go into your float tube fins for example and you have your choice of boots, felt sole for mossy bottom cleats for whatever. Neoprenes seem to have no use.  As someone who travels I need all the lightness and space I can get.  Even in the coldest Western stream I am toasty warm in plastic redball waders and sweet pants for insulation.  I use my waders protective socks made of neoprene that are designed to prevent chafing of the lightweight waders and keep gravel out with a cuff INSIDE my waders over my socks.  This keeps my feet warm and prevents me from feeling that bunched up sock and wader feeling that we all hate after walking around with all this gear on.  This negates the protection of the wader but really feels comfortable all day long.  If you have any other tips to share please post them.  Using this system of layering under thin waders I have put my neoprenes away forever.   My questions are do the Gortex fabrics that allow the wader to breath keep you drier inside on a hot day?  Do they really work as advertised?  My biggest problem is that sweaty clammy feeling from wearing a plastic bag all day.  Second, for those of you who have to hike in and pass through water to fish what do you do?  Feltsole boots are crappy hiking boots.  I’m thinking of forgetting the feltsoles and   trying hiking boots in my waders.   Anyone do this?  

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what do you do?  Feltsole boots are crappy hiking boots.  I’m thinking of forgetting the feltsoles and   trying hiking boots in my waders.   Anyone do this?

Hiking boots are crappy wading boots. If you step on a smooth, wet rock with rubber soled boots you might as well be wearing roller skates. Tight Lines Jay Whitworth

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Griz, Regarding you idea about using hiking boots with your waders, while I haven’t done that yet, I plan to. For years I used nothing but a three-ply (canvas, rubber,canvas) pair of hodgman’s hippers. I love them because they’re the toughest thing you can get for the money. However, i find as I stray farther from my home waters that I need chest waders, and I happened upon a going out of business sale and got a pair of neo. for $50. However, because the boots are so expensive and I’m so cheap, I thought about just going to a discount store and buying some fake leather hiking boots. Seems logical. I’ll tell you how they work when I get back from a trip to the west branch of the delaware in New York.  I’m looking forward to a heavy hendrikson hatch. grant

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Griz, Regarding you idea about using hiking boots with your waders, while I haven’t done that yet, I plan to. For years I used nothing but a three-ply (canvas, rubber,canvas) pair of hodgman’s hippers. I love them because they’re the toughest thing you can get for the money. However, i find as I stray farther from my home waters that I need chest waders, and I happened upon a going out of business sale and got a pair of neo. for $50. However, because the boots are so expensive and I’m so cheap, I thought about just going to a discount store and buying some fake leather hiking boots. Seems logical. I’ll tell you how they work when I get back from a trip to the west branch of the delaware in New York.  I’m looking forward to a heavy hendrikson hatch. grant

Hi Grant, For years I used a pair of jungle boots purchased at a surplus store. All I had to do was glue indoor/outdoor carpet to the soles. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

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Question:

: I use 25-lb hard mono, and I don’t have hardly any problems.   : After every fish, run the leader between your lips (they’re more : sensitive than your cold hands) to check for abrasions and : splits.  If you find some, cut that section off. : -M. Smith The guys around here use twelve inches of piano wire or guitar string as a leader (tippet?).  I find it stiffer than mono, but the stuff *never* gets bitten through.  Also, it won’t rust. However, it isn’t the nicest stuff to cast.  Maybe I’ll give the hard mono a try. Pete

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I use 25-lb hard mono, and I don’t have hardly any problems.   : After every fish, run the leader between your lips (they’re more : sensitive than your cold hands) to check for abrasions and : splits.  If you find some, cut that section off. : -M. Smith The guys around here use twelve inches of piano wire or guitar string as a leader (tippet?).  I find it stiffer than mono, but the stuff *never* gets bitten through.  Also, it won’t rust. However, it isn’t the nicest stuff to cast.  Maybe I’ll give the hard mono a try. Pete

   I’ve had bad luck with hard mono for pike.  Last spring I was using 30# hard mason and I broke off something like three out of five time (I gave up after five times, and yes, I did check it for nicks after each fish).  There has to be a subtle trick to using mono leaders for pike because some people swear by it, but it’s never worked for me.    On the other hand, I think the flexible coated wire sold by Orvis works outstanding.  You can tie it to your leader with a surgeon’s or Albright knot and use a duncan loop to attach it to your fly.  No haywire twists or melt knots/fire to mess with. The coating wears off the first two or three inches after a few pike, but it’s easy to retie.  I’ve used it almost exclusively on my last two trips to Saskatchewan and never had a failure with pike up to 42" (about 20#).    As to be expected, Orvis wants way too much money for the stuff, but this is one thing that I’ll pay a little extra for. Another drawback is it’s fine diamter can cut into the leader if you’re not careful, as I found out when fishing for barracuda (makes pike look like a freshwater pussy cat). Rob Gregoire Dallas, Tx

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Hello! A few questions to the oracle How do stop the pike from biting the line off? ( I don’t know the terminology, sorry). Do you put a steelwire there, as you do with a spinning line, or just a thicker regular line?. Also, any hints on wich flies to use is appreciated.                                         Thanx//Klas —                    And now young Skywalker, you will die!                      - The Emperor, Return of the Jedi

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(Klas P Geiron) writes: How do stop the pike from biting the line off? ( I don’t know the terminology, sorry). Do you put a steelwire there,

Yes, use steel shock tippets if you want to keep your flies.  You can also use really heavy mono shock tippet, but I have had pike bite through (looks like a razor cut) 65lb. mono on the strike when I didn’t have the wire tippets.   You can buy pre-looped bite guards from Orvis ($7.25 to $8.50 for a pack of 10) or make your own by buying nylon coated wire from just about any bait shop. If you make your own, use a haywire twist to make a loop on one end and hold the twists under a flame to melt the nylon together (makes a 90%+ knot).  This gives you a loop to loop to your leader.You need to use different knots with the wire to attach the fly.   A figure 8 knot is simple and works great .  Looks like it will slip, but it never does.                        Hope this helps,                                 Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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(Klas P Geiron) writes: How do stop the pike from biting the line off? ( I don’t know the terminology, sorry). Do you put a steelwire there,

I’ve been using kevlar pike tress. It works fine and is easier to cast than steel wire. Heavy monofil nylon is NOT 100% sure. /Tord Andreasson

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (Klas P Geiron) writes: How do stop the pike from biting the line off? ( I don’t know the terminology, sorry). Do you put a steelwire there, I’ve been using kevlar pike tress. It works fine and is easier to cast than steel wire. Heavy monofil nylon is NOT 100% sure. /Tord Andreasson I’ve used steel leader material that is nylon covered. About 18" does the trick. There are small lead sleeves used to crimp the leader ends in small loops, to attach your fly and the line.   I had no trouble casting or breaking using a loop to loop connection on my setup.  I think I ordered my material from CAblela’s

Just my two cents worth: I have found that mono is about 100% sure. I certainly hate using steel or wire leaders to flyfish with, so my solution is to have used 50 lb. mono, about a foot or so of it. This has worked on everything toothy from our pickerel here in Nova Scotia, to some good sized blues in Florida !! (I know it’s a personal thing, but wire makes it feel so much like light tackle spinning – which is great, just not fly fishing) Bill

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Question:

Smallies are excellent fly-rod fare; they will add a whole new dimension to the trout angler’s experience. Fish them with large nymphs (out east we rely heavily on the hellgrammite, which is an early stage of the Dobson fly), crayfish imitations, or minnow imitations.  Woolly buggers are a good starting point.  Don’t go down to too fine a tippet; they aren’t as discriminating (usually) as trout. They’ll hit surface lures; they basically behave like a cross between a trout (for current relationships) and a bass (striking and fighting characteristics.) Reply to report on your success! DM

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Smallies are excellent fly-rod fare; they will add a whole new dimension to the trout angler’s experience. Fish them with large nymphs (out east we rely heavily on the hellgrammite, which is an early stage of the Dobson fly), crayfish imitations, or minnow imitations.  Woolly buggers are a good starting point.  Don’t go down to too fine a tippet; they aren’t as discriminating (usually) as trout. They’ll hit surface lures; they basically behave like a cross between a trout (for current relationships) and a bass (striking and fighting characteristics.) Reply to report on your success! DM

Two points:         1.  Fish deep for the big ones.  Right along the bottom with weighted flys.  Dead drift accomplishes this best.  Even streamers need to be down on the bottom, I’ve found.         2.  Check with the locals about colors.  Surpising to me was that black works best in some rivers and not at all on others. Compare the Shenadoah with the Potomac, for instance. I’ve quit fishing for trout (even tho I always found it an exciting sport) except during the winter when the smallmouth bass go silent. No matter how big the trout or what species, I’ve never had a trout fight as hard or jump as high as a smallmouth of equivalent size.  It’s a real blast. Get the book "Flyfishing for Smallmouth Bass" by Harry Murray of Edinburg, VA for all the neat tricks.   Have fun.   Jim

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Respecting Harry’s book and school and school of thought:  Excellent work and useful, but some variations I have found successful: 1.  HM mainly works the ‘Doah branches.  Even the largest, the South Fork, is fairly small water compared to the Potomac, James, New, Susquehanna, etc.  Often, small or large water is irrelevant since habitat is "micro", that is, unaffected by the size of the river.  At times, however, the total size issue is critical.  The Shenandoah has a very great density of smaller fish; this leads to different patterns.  Also, in a system dominated by large numbers of smaller fish, the effectiveness of nymph and crawdad patterns changes.  Larger fish will key on larger prey, and hellgrammites just don’t get that big.    Also, bigger water has heavier flow, negating some bottom-relating techniques Harry uses with great success unless you are willing to use heavier gear. 2.  In a boat, Harry’s lighter tackle/lighter tippet (than I prefer) techniques are less practical.  I rarely go below 1x or 6lb or so tippet, often staying up around 12 lb, especially in fluorocarbons.  I have noticed no reduction in fish size or numbers, and I am able to deliver larger flies and weighted flies with ease. 3.   A drifted, rather than a stripped, delivery is less practical for our purposes on the Potomac.  In bigger water, in a boat, with a larger fly, I usually wind up encouraging my clients to fish far and fast, though this may offend the purist.  When we wade fish away from the boat, a more thorough and deliberate approach is possible, but on a nine-mile float we have some water to cover. 4.  The Susquehanna and New rivers, which are very large both in flow rate and depth variation, often require an even more pronounced departure from the standard techniques as espoused by Harry.  My best fish on both rivers came on large flies (4"+) perhaps more suitable for the salt.  Fewer hits, of course, but serious quality fish and the possibility of an appearance by the next species up the food chain (genus Esox) is possible. 5.   We’re also talking about a heavier line here.  7 weight is standard, and up to a 9 is my first choice.  That way there is no compromise on distance and power.   I have great respect for Harry’s way, and it is always the starting point, but be aware that there are some further techniques to try. Dave

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Question:

I haven’t received any mail today. Is the listserver down or is it my local mail handler…

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(Richard Hall) writes: I haven’t received any mail today. Is the listserver down or is it my

local mail handler… I didn’t even know there was a fly fishing mailing list.  How do I subscribe?

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