Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns But enough like them for anyone very familiar with either to make a mistake? Well I wouldn’t put myself forth as an expert but I am very familiar with both browns and landlocked salmon, in a couple of cases I’ve had trouble telling very bright browns from landlocks. In waters that sport both atlantics and sea run browns, it can be so difficult to tell them apart that you need to check the volverine (sp?) teeth to be certain, but that’s really the opposite problem, the browns are bright like a salmon, rather than the salmon being dark like a brown. I’ve seen some of the Outlet’s ‘dark’ salmon and they do look a bit like browns, they’ve even got a slight yellowish tint, which is what I think makes most people mistake them for browns.

O.K., I see where the problem lies.  Since the discussion was about salmon born in the river it never occured to me that the browns in question were sea run.  I assumed we were talking about stream resident browns and that the salmon had coloring that matched theirs.  We have browns here that live in Lake Michigan and head up the streams only to spawn.  Having seen a few of these, I understand how one could have trouble distinguishing between them, when fresh from the lake, and salmon.  As a matter of fact, limited as my experience with them is, I’m sure I couldn’t tell them apart. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and they taste muddy. Bearing in mind that the vocabulary of taste is woefully inadequate (and often misleading), I’d say that muddy is a term that applies to all the salmonids to one degree or another.  Don’t get me wrong, I like them myself and am particularly fond of both Atlantic and King (or Chinook) salmon, but they do have a flavor component that is definitely earthy compared to many other, and especially white fleshed, fishes. I once whacked and ate a very nice brookie from the outlet and it certainly seemed ‘muddy’ to me. My biased taste runs to brookies, to me nothing is finer as far as trout go. I dislike landlocks, browns and haven’t had a truely wild or acclimatized rainbow, only the pellet fed stockies that I fished 18 years ago in NH. I much prefer haddock, flounder and swordfish to any trout/salmon, perhaps that’s one of the reasons why I hardly ever keep a fish. I do recall having some smoked salmon in Ireland that was exceptional though. He called them "dirty" salmon. He needs to try a salmon out of the Root river in Racine, WI some time.      :) This made me chuckle. The Root river? Sounds mucky

Rather an apt name considering the focus of this discussion.  The Root is probably the most popular stream in the state for salmon fishing.  As far as I know it also the most productive…..for reasons that are a complete mystery to me.  It is nasty, as is also true of all the streams in the extreme southern Lake Michigan watershed.  Doubtless, they all ran clear 200 years ago when the native prairie plants stabilized the rich silty soil, but all that ended the day the first sodbuster arrived.  Some progress has been made in cleaning them up in the last decade or two but MUCH more needs to be done and it will never happen, land use patterns being what they are here. Some, like the Milwaukee, the Menomonee, and a few of the smaller streams will run fairly clear during extreme low water conditions but they are typically opaque.  Agricultural and urban runoff, industrial pollutants, and sewage combined with an unknowable quantity of point source pollution conspire to make eating anything caught from these waters border on suicidal and yet thousands of people do.  What’s even more perplexing is that there actually IS something to be caught and eaten. Wolfgang

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I’ve seen some of the Outlet’s ‘dark’ salmon and they do look a bit like browns, they’ve even got a slight yellowish tint, which is what I think makes most people mistake them for browns.

This has been an interesting discussion for me; and since I was the one who apparently misidentified the fish, even all the more so.   By now, a week later, I’m no longer sure.   It’s my recollection that the fish I caught had the brownish coloring with the distinctive spots of a brown.   Not knowing there were no browns in the river, I had no doubt at the time that is was indeed a brown trout.   Do these small landlocks also have the spots of a brown, or is my memory going to hell? (knowing full well these are mutually exclusive positions.) Joe F.

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I fished the EO last fall and caught a landlocked that very much resembled a brown in coloration. The guide explained that as the fish adapt to the river, their color changes (I guess like the so called "Black" Atlantics). I fished again this June, and all the landlocks were bright silver. HTH In all knowledge, consider the source. Jim Ray

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great report, Joe.  One thing, however:  the brown trout was actually a land locked salmon that was born in the river.  My first trip up there I caught a couple of these strange looking fish – they looked like browns, but had salmon tails and heads.  I asked a passing guide about it and he told me they were salmon born in the river instead of in the lake.  Later, at a fly show in Wilmington, I asked a Maine Game Warden about the same thing.  He gave me the same info as the guide.  As the fish gets bigger, it loses this trait and becomes more like the rest of the landlocks.  The tail is the big give away – it is slender and more forked than a brown’s. There has been controversy on the Rapid about browns.  Some folks say they are in the river, but it is the same fish that I caught at East Outlet.  No browns in the Rapid. Glad the GRW worked.  It worked on the Rapid also, but in size 18 and with dubbing instead of larva lace. Dave

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 or Gink- reaching Waldo

scott, you misspelt "gink-retching waldo." i’m a loon man…. a happy loonie. –waldo

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Managed to hold onto a 12" landlock long enough to actually land one; and by 5:00, I headed back to the cabin for dinner.   I’m taking it easy; tomorrow is another day in paradise.

Fishing for landlocks in the north woods may not seem like paradise to some folks, but it’s close enough for me. Nice TR. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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This is intriguing.  Salmon bred in the river look enough like browns to fool experienced fishers and one can tell the difference only by shape and or size of head and tail?

Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns and they taste muddy. He called them "dirty" salmon. Flyfish

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This is intriguing.  Salmon bred in the river look enough like browns to fool experienced fishers and one can tell the difference only by shape and or size of head and tail? Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns

But enough like them for anyone very familiar with either to make a mistake? and they taste muddy.

Bearing in mind that the vocabulary of taste is woefully inadequate (and often misleading), I’d say that muddy is a term that applies to all the salmonids to one degree or another.  Don’t get me wrong, I like them myself and am particularly fond of both Atlantic and King (or Chinook) salmon, but they do have a flavor component that is definitely earthy compared to many other, and especially white fleshed, fishes. He called them "dirty" salmon.

He needs to try a salmon out of the Root river in Racine, WI some time.      :) Wolfgang

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Fishing for landlocks in the north woods may not seem like paradise to some folks, but it’s close enough for me. Nice TR.

Reminds me.  I have a reference which says that Gull Lake in southwestern Michigan (no secrets here…common knowledge) has landlock salmon in it.  Anybody here ever fished it? Wolfgang

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At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW?

Goddamn RW

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Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns But enough like them for anyone very familiar with either to make a mistake?

Well I wouldn’t put myself forth as an expert but I am very familiar with both browns and landlocked salmon, in a couple of cases I’ve had trouble telling very bright browns from landlocks. In waters that sport both atlantics and sea run browns, it can be so difficult to tell them apart that you need to check the volverine (sp?) teeth to be certain, but that’s really the opposite problem, the browns are bright like a salmon, rather than the salmon being dark like a brown. I’ve seen some of the Outlet’s ‘dark’ salmon and they do look a bit like browns, they’ve even got a slight yellowish tint, which is what I think makes most people mistake them for browns. and they taste muddy. Bearing in mind that the vocabulary of taste is woefully inadequate (and often misleading), I’d say that muddy is a term that applies to all the salmonids to one degree or another.  Don’t get me wrong, I like them myself and am particularly fond of both Atlantic and King (or Chinook) salmon, but they do have a flavor component that is definitely earthy compared to many other, and especially white fleshed, fishes.

I once whacked and ate a very nice brookie from the outlet and it certainly seemed ‘muddy’ to me. My biased taste runs to brookies, to me nothing is finer as far as trout go. I dislike landlocks, browns and haven’t had a truely wild or acclimatized rainbow, only the pellet fed stockies that I fished 18 years ago in NH. I much prefer haddock, flounder and swordfish to any trout/salmon, perhaps that’s one of the reasons why I hardly ever keep a fish. I do recall having some smoked salmon in Ireland that was exceptional though. He called them "dirty" salmon. He needs to try a salmon out of the Root river in Racine, WI some time.      :)

This made me chuckle. The Root river? Sounds mucky Wolfgang

Flyfish

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns But enough like them for anyone very familiar with either to make a mistake? Well I wouldn’t put myself forth as an expert but I am very familiar with both browns and landlocked salmon, in a couple of cases I’ve had trouble telling very bright browns from landlocks. In waters that sport both atlantics and sea run browns, it can be so difficult to tell them apart that you need to check the volverine (sp?) teeth to be certain, but that’s really the opposite problem, the browns are bright like a salmon, rather than the salmon being dark like a brown. I’ve seen some of the Outlet’s ‘dark’ salmon and they do look a bit like browns, they’ve even got a slight yellowish tint, which is what I think makes most people mistake them for browns.

Caught a few of them on the Rapid – very brown-like but the shape was wrong – Dave explained the difference.  Funny thing, you can catch them in the same water, surrounded by regular landlocks.   Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Back when I worked for the fly shop,

Did you work at MGFS in Greenville?  Damn fine looking lady in there the days I went in.   SWMBO noticed also. Joe F.

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Enough! Enough! Black Flies be Damned! I want – NEED- to go back! Great TR. By the way, what was the flow rate? There in early june it went from 2900 cfs (almost unfishable) to 1200 cfs by the time we left 4 days later. 1200 is much better for wading. Jim Ray

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am often frustrated by my shortage of fishing time; and when an opportunity arises, the stress of impatience can take a lot of fun out of the trip.  So sitting about the cabin in the morning, I planned to take it as leisurely as possible.   The fish would be there when I got there or they wouldn’t; and my determined sloth got me to the river by 2:30 in the afternoon.  Happy kids, happy wife, relaxed daddy. I was heading down to the East Outlet, where the Kennebec is born from the waters of Moosehead Lake.  The river plunges through the dam and immediately becomes a beautiful river, flowing under a steel truss RR bridge, then highway 15, before continuing south through Skowhegan to the ocean.   A dam or two slow the river farther south, and smallies abound, but here below the East Outlet, it flows free through the beautiful, North Woods region and offers big brookies and landlocked salmon. Three other guys were standing around in the parking lot when I arrived, and in a short chat, I found that one of them was a guide, though I’m not sure if the other two were sports.   The guide took them up on the bridge to point out good runs to fish while I rigged up the nice 4 wt. I got from some guy in Germany <g.   The two sports went on upstream, and the guide came back & chatted some more, offering a tip or two on where I should go between the road & the dam.   It’s a big enough river, but I wasn’t keen on sharing the tourist pools with two other fishermen; and thanking him, I headed downriver through the forest. Over dinner in Foxboro a few nights earlier, Dave had shared the location of a deep run a ways downstream; and I managed to see my way through the black flies & mosquitoes to find my way down to the landmark he described. Nice spot.   I’ll fish here.  (In truth, I’d have fished almost anywhere to get out of the woods by then.) Reports from every source had said caddis were the bug du jour.   I scanned the air & water, but saw none, so I went straight for the GRW.   Instead of working on my swap flies, I tied up a dozen or so the day before, and I was ready.   The water level was down from the previous day, but still fast & deep, and a split shot was needed to get the fly to the bottom.   Starting at the tail end of the run, I drifted deep, covering the run, but nary a strike.   Finally snagged & lost the fly, a good time to re-evaluate what you have on.   I knew the GRW was a good fly, so I dropped down a size on both the fly (#16) & tippet (6x) and went back at it, moving upstream a bit. It didn’t take long before I hooked up to a small fish, which to my surprise turned out to be about an 8" brown.  I didn’t know there were browns up that far.   Moving up the run a bit, I was casting into a slick behind a large rock and was soon fast to a definitely larger fish.   15" of silver leapt in front of me, ran briefly out into the river, then allowed himself to be reeled in.  It was seemingly too easy when he took off again downstream. I had a lot of slack water downstream, so, chasing him wasn’t a concern. The thought of him coming off never occurred to me until he did a quick rolling jump and was gone in an instant.  Okay, that was fun. Moving up & out, I set the hook on another nice fish, who showed me his dark back as he leapt vertically to spit me out almost as fast as I hooked him. Hard to say, but probably in the 16" range again.   Short but sweet. Managed to hold onto a 12" landlock long enough to actually land one; and by 5:00, I headed back to the cabin for dinner.   I’m taking it easy; tomorrow is another day in paradise.

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At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other. I could tell you, but then I’d have to kill you. <g See Louie’s submission for the 2000 ROFF fly swap. http://www.paul.goodwinweb.com/flyswap2000/grw.jpg

OK, got it. I think that’s a free-swimming caddis larva pattern. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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OK, got it. I think that’s a free-swimming caddis larva pattern.

At one of the claves LaPlac gave away a whole set of them in various stages. It was pretty cool (I just saw it, I didn’t win it). — Charlie…

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Glad the GRW worked.  It worked on the Rapid also, but in size 18 and with dubbing instead of larva lace.

I was going to tie some 18’s but didn’t have the hooks when I sat down at the vise.   For 14’s, I used the larva lace you sent me a while back, but for the 16’s, the larva lace seemed too bulky & I used V-rib.   Never got around to the dubbing versions (couldn’t find the right color in the box, then dinner was ready, etc.) Joe F.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great report, Joe.  One thing, however:  the brown trout was actually a land locked salmon that was born in the river.  My first trip up there I caught a couple of these strange looking fish – they looked like browns, but had salmon tails and heads.  I asked a passing guide about it and he told me they were salmon born in the river instead of in the lake.  Later, at a fly show in Wilmington, I asked a Maine Game Warden about the same thing.  He gave me the same info as the guide.  As the fish gets bigger, it loses this trait and becomes more like the rest of the landlocks.  The tail is the big give away – it is slender and more forked than a brown’s. There has been controversy on the Rapid about browns.  Some folks say they are in the river, but it is the same fish that I caught at East Outlet.  No browns in the Rapid.

This is intriguing.  Salmon bred in the river look enough like browns to fool experienced fishers and one can tell the difference only by shape and or size of head and tail? There are numerous references….McClane’s "Encyclopedia" comes readily to mind….which detail the differences among various strains of a given species taken from waters where they have long been established.  From what I’ve seen of such illustrations it seems that some of the differences among and between such strains can be greater than what you’ve described above. Makes me wonder just how closely related the land locked salmon and the brown trout are.  Is this a missed opportunity for the lumpers and splitters to thump on one another? Wolfgang

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OK, got it. I think that’s a free-swimming caddis larva pattern.

BTW, while doing some nymph collecting a week or so ago I found green free-swimming caddis larva in my homewater. I had no idea they were there — I’d just assumed that all the caddis larva were of the cased variety, which are numerous. I’m going to have to try some GRWs. I’ve noticed that some fish I keep have stomachs full of what I can only describe as "green goo." I wonder if it’s GRWs? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

I am often frustrated by my shortage of fishing time; and when an opportunity arises, the stress of impatience can take a lot of fun out of the trip.  So sitting about the cabin in the morning, I planned to take it as leisurely as possible.   The fish would be there when I got there or they wouldn’t; and my determined sloth got me to the river by 2:30 in the afternoon.  Happy kids, happy wife, relaxed daddy. I was heading down to the East Outlet, where the Kennebec is born from the waters of Moosehead Lake.  The river plunges through the dam and immediately becomes a beautiful river, flowing under a steel truss RR bridge, then highway 15, before continuing south through Skowhegan to the ocean.   A dam or two slow the river farther south, and smallies abound, but here below the East Outlet, it flows free through the beautiful, North Woods region and offers big brookies and landlocked salmon. Three other guys were standing around in the parking lot when I arrived, and in a short chat, I found that one of them was a guide, though I’m not sure if the other two were sports.   The guide took them up on the bridge to point out good runs to fish while I rigged up the nice 4 wt. I got from some guy in Germany <g.   The two sports went on upstream, and the guide came back & chatted some more, offering a tip or two on where I should go between the road & the dam.   It’s a big enough river, but I wasn’t keen on sharing the tourist pools with two other fishermen; and thanking him, I headed downriver through the forest. Over dinner in Foxboro a few nights earlier, Dave had shared the location of a deep run a ways downstream; and I managed to see my way through the black flies & mosquitoes to find my way down to the landmark he described.   Nice spot.   I’ll fish here.  (In truth, I’d have fished almost anywhere to get out of the woods by then.) Reports from every source had said caddis were the bug du jour.   I scanned the air & water, but saw none, so I went straight for the GRW.   Instead of working on my swap flies, I tied up a dozen or so the day before, and I was ready.   The water level was down from the previous day, but still fast & deep, and a split shot was needed to get the fly to the bottom.   Starting at the tail end of the run, I drifted deep, covering the run, but nary a strike.   Finally snagged & lost the fly, a good time to re-evaluate what you have on.   I knew the GRW was a good fly, so I dropped down a size on both the fly (#16) & tippet (6x) and went back at it, moving upstream a bit. It didn’t take long before I hooked up to a small fish, which to my surprise turned out to be about an 8" brown.  I didn’t know there were browns up that far.   Moving up the run a bit, I was casting into a slick behind a large rock and was soon fast to a definitely larger fish.   15" of silver leapt in front of me, ran briefly out into the river, then allowed himself to be reeled in.  It was seemingly too easy when he took off again downstream.   I had a lot of slack water downstream, so, chasing him wasn’t a concern.  The thought of him coming off never occurred to me until he did a quick rolling jump and was gone in an instant.  Okay, that was fun. Moving up & out, I set the hook on another nice fish, who showed me his dark back as he leapt vertically to spit me out almost as fast as I hooked him. Hard to say, but probably in the 16" range again.   Short but sweet. Managed to hold onto a 12" landlock long enough to actually land one; and by 5:00, I headed back to the cabin for dinner.   I’m taking it easy; tomorrow is another day in paradise.

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At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other.

Green rock worm? — Charlie…

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Great report, Joe.  One thing, however:  the brown trout was actually a land locked salmon that was born in the river.  My first trip up there I caught a couple of these strange looking fish – they looked like browns, but had salmon tails and heads.  I asked a passing guide about it and he told me they were salmon born in the river instead of in the lake.  Later, at a fly show in Wilmington, I asked a Maine Game Warden about the same thing.  He gave me the same info as the guide.  As the fish gets bigger, it loses this trait and becomes more like the rest of the landlocks.  The tail is the big give away – it is slender and more forked than a brown’s. There has been controversy on the Rapid about browns.  Some folks say they are in the river, but it is the same fish that I caught at East Outlet.  No browns in the Rapid.   Glad the GRW worked.  It worked on the Rapid also, but in size 18 and with dubbing instead of larva lace.   Dave

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By the way, what was the flow rate? There in early june it went from 2900 cfs (almost unfishable) to 1200 cfs by the time we left 4 days later. 1200 is much better for wading.

I confess I don’t have the numbers.  The guide with whom I chatted mentioned them, but I don’t remember.   I believe it had been over 2,000 the previous day, but was well under that the days I fished there.   All I can say is that the river was very wadeable, and I was able to reach spots in the center that would probably be suicidal at higher flows. Joe F.

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Reports from every source had said caddis were the bug du jour.   I scanned the air & water, but saw none, so I went straight for the GRW. At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other.

My guess is green rock worm, but it might be great rice wine, or Gink- reaching Waldo Scott

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Reports from every source had said caddis were the bug du jour.   I scanned the air & water, but saw none, so I went straight for the GRW.  

At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other.

I could tell you, but then I’d have to kill you. <g See Louie’s submission for the 2000 ROFF fly swap. http://www.paul.goodwinweb.com/flyswap2000/grw.jpg Joe F.

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Question:

Scott was supposed to come with me but he had been out partying the night before and the groaning coming from the other room, spoke to his state of incapacitation. I thought the ROFFian method says to hand him a bottle of Wild Turkey, scream ‘Drink or Die, mother f*er’, haul his butt into the fishing car and careen wildly to the river.

What can I say, I forgot.  Does this mean I have to send back my decoder ring? Peter the worried

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Scott was supposed to come with me but he had been out partying the night before … I thought the ROFFian method says to hand him a bottle of Wild Turkey, scream ‘Drink or Die, mother f*er’, haul his butt into the fishing car and careen wildly to the river.

But you’re forgetting that Scott, taking after his mother’s side of the family, is WAY too smart to be a ROFFian. — Ken Fortenberry

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Scott was supposed to come with me but he had been out partying the night before … I thought the ROFFian method says to hand him a bottle of Wild Turkey, scream ‘Drink or Die, mother f*er’, haul his butt into the fishing car and careen wildly to the river. But you’re forgetting that Scott, taking after his mother’s side of the family, is WAY too smart to be a ROFFian.

That and the fact his dad likes to keep him away from influences that will lead him into a life of debauchery.  He can find his own way.  :) Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Scott was supposed to come with me but he had been out partying the night before and the groaning coming from the other room, spoke to his state of incapacitation.

I thought the ROFFian method says to hand him a bottle of Wild Turkey, scream ‘Drink or Die, mother f*er’, haul his butt into the fishing car and careen wildly to the river.

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Scott was supposed to come with me but he had been out partying the night before and the groaning coming from the other room, spoke to his state of incapacitation. I thought the ROFFian method says to hand him a bottle of Wild Turkey, scream ‘Drink or Die, mother f*er’, haul his butt into the fishing car and careen wildly to the river.

    ah, stan, ol’ boy, you will soon learn more than you ever wanted to know concerning the rather brusque nature of interaction techniques displayed by the subject of that little anecdote.     let’s just say that no one has ever called him "gentleman jim" roberts. your friend in the old north state wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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or how to screw up your first day on the Grand and still catch some fish. Scott was supposed to come with me but he had been out partying the night before and the groaning coming from the other room, spoke to his state of incapacitation.  I had put my stuff together the night before, just before I hit the sack.  This was going to be the first Grand trip after a season of steelheading so everything had to be dragged out of drawers, closets and rearranged. Six weights seemed to be a good idea to chuck some large perch streamers at the top end of the Grand.  It had been blown out by earlier rains so I was counting on high and dirty.  In these conditions, perch get washed through the dam and the browns have a field day with them. As I drive by Cedar Run, I can see that the water is a bit high but also that it is gin clear.  Scratch plan number one. I stop at the second access point – my car is the only one (miracle) – but as I’m suiting up, two more cars arrive.  The water at the access point usually holds a few fish but if these guys tromp through it first, that’ll blow my chance at them so I hurry up.  The little 6 wt. is taken since the perch streamer idea is done like dinner. I’m using a Type 6 fullsink on it – casts OK but the little rod is working – and I start swinging a little pattern – nothing.  This is a new pattern that I hope will successfully imitate small baitfish but I don’t move a single fish.  I work downstream while the car load work upstream.  The area around Cedar Run tends not to have a lot of defined seams and runs that would appeal to the nympher – mostly composed of flats connected by riffles.  However, the gang has parked themselves in a nice nymphing spot and after about 15 minutes, a dead brown of about 12" floats by.  Later, one guy walks by and I say the I noticed he had hooked one.  He’s quite pleased to describe it but I refrain from telling him the result. Should mention that in the process of hurrying I had left behind my tippet, thermometer, camera, and a couple of fly boxes. Should also mention that it was freaking cold and I was dressed for the summer-like temperatures promised for mid day. Should also mention that I didn’t get a single hit. To hell with Cedar Run and I pack up for The Trestle.  This spot has an old rail trestle bridge that is now used by walkers – it has a beautiful view of the Grand.  Directly below the bridge, there’s some slow water that has the appearance of a warm water river, but further down, the river is split by an island and as the river rejoins, there’s a beautiful nymphing run which is now my intended target but it’s probably chock-a-block with anglers. I unwrap the 20 something year old graphite Orvis Osprey – a slow 9′ 6" six weight that I bought over eBay.  The cork is still white – the rod having seen virtually no use.  It was an impulse buy and I regretted it afterward but hell, since I have it, might as well use it.  What a little gem.  About as perfect a nymphing rod as one could want. At least when I don’t catch any fish I’ll enjoin the experience. When I get to the run, there’s no one in it despite seeing fishermen above and below me.  Are they all nuts?  On goes a #18 bead head prince nymph that I had bought at the Feathered Hook last year. Within a few minutes of my travels to the dark side, I’ve hooked and landed a sleek, fat, 15-16" brown.  She put on quite a show, charging all over the place, making the JLH sing a few times and causing the gang upstream to cast covetous glances.  Swing her into the shallows, she’s lightly hooked, lift the head and slip out the nymph and she’s on her way.  A few casts later and I’ve hooked her twin sister and landed her in the same spot.  Grand browns at this time of year are at their most feisty so even a fish of this size takes a couple of minutes to land.  A few minutes later I set the hook into a larger fish but I was overly aggressive with the hookset and when it turned I had too much pressure applied.  Snap. I don’t normally hog a run but with anglers bracketing me, I don’t have much choice.  However, these hookups will be my last.  Back to the parking lot for some of Jo’s famous sandwiches and a reassessment. Can’t believe my nymphing luck.  The first set had been totally instinctive and I had been really surprised to find a fish on.  Watch out Louie, I’m starting to get the hang of this! A quick detour to a favourite spot at Inverhaugh but it yields only the briefest of hookups and a chat with a few anglers as it also gets busy while I fish.  A guide leads two rookie clients to the water and makes a big fuss out of walking across the water well downstream of me so as not to disturb my fishing water.  Thanks.  Too bad the next gang hadn’t been around to hear the instruction.  Again three, two rookies lead by a not so rookie.  He leads them into the water to cross within five feet of me and to tromp through the water I’m fishing.  As they approach, I expect to see them angle off but they keep coming. Finally, I advise them that I’m fishing this water, would they mind crossing further down.  The look of surprise on the leader’s face told me that he hadn’t even thought of the possibility that I might be actually fishing the water! Oh well, I still caught some – on a nymph to boot. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Question:

To my horror, I just checked my fly vest and found a bottle of each. I will seal them and bury them to a safe depth. What should I use instead? — Citizen Fisherman

Response:

To my horror, I just checked my fly vest and found a bottle of each. I will seal them and bury them to a safe depth. What should I use instead?

KY Jelly? –Steve

Response:

Well, I’ve got plenty of that… — Citizen Fisherman

Response:

To my horror, I just checked my fly vest and found a bottle of each. I will seal them and bury them to a safe depth. What should I use instead? — Citizen Fisherman

Kissass…… –waldo

Response:

LO fucking L

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To my horror, I just checked my fly vest and found a bottle of each. I will seal them and bury them to a safe depth. What should I use instead? — Citizen Fisherman Kissass…… –waldo

Response:

Fine by me. I’ll just keep buying and using Gink. — Citizen Fisherman

Response:

Fine by me. I’ll just keep buying and using Gink.

Eh, what the hell… Better check with the manufacturer of your Inflato-sheep, Sybil…I hear it eats through that kind of cheap vinyl… …and if the owner(s) of the name "Inflato-sheep" wanna sue me, I have something else they can wrap their lips around and attempt to inflate…

Response:

Inflato-sheep? I’m sorry. I’m not familiar with that product. Perhaps you could fill us in… — Citizen Fisherman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fine by me. I’ll just keep buying and using Gink. Eh, what the hell… Better check with the manufacturer of your Inflato-sheep, Sybil…I hear it eats through that kind of cheap vinyl… …and if the owner(s) of the name "Inflato-sheep" wanna sue me, I have something else they can wrap their lips around and attempt to inflate…

Response:

Any Loon product would be worth the investment. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To my horror, I just checked my fly vest and found a bottle of each. I will seal them and bury them to a safe depth. What should I use instead?

Response:

Inflato-sheep? I’m sorry. I’m not familiar with that product. Perhaps you could fill us in…

Yup, as I suspected – <yawn…OK…try eBay… Come on, Sybil, I KNOW you got it in ya – you can be a veritable gold mine…

Response:

Any Loon product would be worth the investment.

Um, well, wouldn’t that be the same…oh, you mean the OTHER Loon product…oh, geez, another innocent victim is gonna hear from the team of "Bert, Ernie, and Oscar, LLP"….frankly, and this isn’t a legal opinion, he just might a have a case there, first use and all… TC, R

Response:

I’m completely in the dark here. You don’t use floatant with bass bugs. Can somebody overcome their repulsion long enough to give me the scoop. I DO NOT want to show up at any trout stream with this Gink shit. (smooch)… — Citizen Fisherman I’m starting to grow on you, admit it. Don’t worry. The Doctor can prescribe an ointment… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any Loon product would be worth the investment. Um, well, wouldn’t that be the same…oh, you mean the OTHER Loon product…oh, geez, another innocent victim is gonna hear from the team of "Bert, Ernie, and Oscar, LLP"….frankly, and this isn’t a legal opinion, he just might a have a case there, first use and all… TC, R

Response:

Inflato-sheep? I’m sorry. I’m not familiar with that product. Perhaps you could fill us in… Yup, as I suspected – <yawn…OK…try eBay… Come on, Sybil, I KNOW you got it in ya – you can be a veritable gold mine…

See, that’s the thing about high expectations. Wolfgang who knows that tetherballs really DO rule the universe

Response:

To my horror, I just checked my fly vest and found a bottle of each. I will seal them and bury them to a safe depth. What should I use instead? — Citizen Fisherman Kissass…… –waldo

        post of the fucking month. who loves ya, waldo! (how’s that for kissass, you lying scumbag?)

Response:

Wolfgang who knows that tetherballs really DO rule the universe

Sad, oh so sad, but true. MC

Response:

Right before my innocent eyes, I saw this perfectly sane, highly intelligent man go banana!  He was last seen with a spade in hand, digging this big hole. After a few hours, he climbed out, pulling the ladder out after himself, picked up his fly fishing vest and threw it into the hole.  Two hours later, it was all filled back end. Satisfied, he picked up a little bottle of Gink and one of Xink, put them into his shirt pocket and smiling in great satisfaction, returned the spade to his pal, Harrison. Observing his beaming face, "Mr. Harrison, esq." asked, "How’d it go?" "I learned him!" he smiled. Wayne Harrison could see the tears welling up in Waldo’s eyes so he took him in his arms to comfort him as he sobbed these deep, throbbing sobs of relief. "Don’t you feel better now that you buried that bottle of World Excellent Product Gink & Xink?" Waldo stiffens and backs off with this blank, far away look.  His lower lip begins to quiver and his right hand shoots to his mouth for self control.  He bites down on his shooting finger and then, suddenly he lets out this horrifying, Arrrrgggguuuhhhhhhhhh! The last we saw of this scene as the reporter peaked over the back fence was Wayne Harrison handing the spade back to Waldo and walking away, slowly shaking his head. Waldo collaped where he stood until Winter’s White Wagon fetched him up to deliver him home to the new mound, still fresh . . . and somewhere, there, deep down in the earth,  a vest full of flies waited for the return of what he still had in his shirt pocket. We love you Walt.  Hang tough man.  You’re going to make it yet! Your Pal in the Great N.W. State of Washington, George Gehrke – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To my horror, I just checked my fly vest and found a bottle of each. I will seal them and bury them to a safe depth. What should I use instead? — Citizen Fisherman Kissass…… –waldo

  george.vcf

1K Download

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Right before my innocent eyes, I saw this perfectly sane, highly intelligent man go banana!  He was last seen with a spade in hand, digging this big hole. After a few hours, he climbed out, pulling the ladder out after himself, picked up his fly fishing vest and threw it into the hole.  Two hours later, it was all filled back end. (in?)  Could it be "IN?"  Heads yes, Tails no. Satisfied, he picked up a little bottle of Gink and one of Xink, put them into his shirt pocket and smiling in great satisfaction, returned the spade to his pal, Harrison. Observing his beaming face, "Mr. Harrison, esq." asked, "How’d it go?" "I learned him!" he smiled. Wayne Harrison could see the tears welling up in Waldo’s eyes so he took him in his arms to comfort him as he sobbed these deep, throbbing sobs of relief. "Don’t you feel better now that you buried that bottle of World Excellent Product Gink & Xink?" Waldo stiffens and backs off with this blank, far away look.  His lower lip begins to quiver and his right hand shoots to his mouth for self control.  He bites down on his shooting finger and then, suddenly he lets out this horrifying, Arrrrgggguuuhhhhhhhhh! The last we saw of this scene as the reporter peaked over the back fence was Wayne Harrison handing the spade back to Waldo and walking away, slowly shaking his head. Waldo collaped where he stood until Winter’s White Wagon fetched him up to deliver him home to the new mound, still fresh . . . and somewhere, there, deep down in the earth,  a vest full of flies waited for the return of what he still had in his shirt pocket. We love you Walt.  Hang tough man.  You’re going to make it yet! Your Pal in the Great N.W. State of Washington, George Gehrke To my horror, I just checked my fly vest and found a bottle of each. I will seal them and bury them to a safe depth. What should I use instead? — Citizen Fisherman Kissass…… –waldo

  george.vcf

1K Download

Response:

Well, I’ve got plenty of that… — Citizen Fisherman

And here I thought you were a real man!

Response:

I’m not real… — Citizen Fisherman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I’ve got plenty of that… — Citizen Fisherman And here I thought you were a real man!

Response:

I recommend potassium cyanide mixed 50-50 with DMSO. It only works, though, if you apply it with bare hands.

Now,  _that’s_ funny!!

Response:

Right before my innocent eyes, <sumthin snipped yer just green cuz i got nominated fer "post of the month"…. –waldo

yah, I know . . . but did the final vote come in  yet?  Its hard for a dang yankee like myself fighting that N.C. political coalition.  You have the edge on me pal.  I’ll settle for "Honorable Mention"

  george.vcf

1K Download

Response:

Right before my innocent eyes, <sumthin snipped

yer just green cuz i got nominated fer "post of the month"…. –waldo

Response:

This is a public service announcement, by a concerned private individual. The author of the above post,  has lied, cheated, and stolen from members of this newsgroup. He is also known for his tendency to vitriolic abuse of a severe and personal nature, barely intelligible ranting of an insulting nature, completely ridiculous and self aggrandising stories also invariably of an insulting nature, and for spamming his products incessantly. Past experience has clearly demonstrated that it is best to avoid any contact with him, if one wishes to avoid trouble. This announcement is not an opinion on his products, or an opinion on the person concerned, it is simply a statement of fact, and a well meant warning. Various methods have been tried to rid the group of this person, but due to the nature of usenet, and as he apparently possesses neither shame, nor morals, to any discernible degree, and has a wide range of ISP

Question:

There are some theories based on comparative analysis of DNA from rainbows native to this region versus that from rainbows native further north which point at them possibly being genetically the least changed and therefore the oldest. This is alluded to by Loev in his book "Flyfishing For Sharks."

Someone once told me that rainbow trout originated on the Pacific coast of Siberia. This guy is an outfitter on the Kamchatka Peninsula, so I took it with a grain of salt (bullshit detectors at work, Wayno , but it’s an interesting idea. I’m pretty sure that rainbows are native to Siberia, so there’s no reason they might not have originated there rather than in North America. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

I’m pretty sure that rainbows are native to Siberia, so there’s no reason they might not have originated there rather than in North America.

Rainbows originated in the North Pacific basin, along with cutts and Pacific salmon. They were first classified by a Swedish scientist studying fish from Kamchatka, but there is no real evidence that they actually evolved there.

Response:

Someone once told me that rainbow trout originated on the Pacific coast of Siberia. This guy is an outfitter on the Kamchatka Peninsula, so I took it with a grain of salt (bullshit detectors at work, Wayno , but it’s an interesting idea. I’m pretty sure that rainbows are native to Siberia, so there’s no reason they might not have originated there rather than in North America.

The Russians certainly think this.  There are even some that think there’s evidence Oncorhynchus sp. as a group originated there.  The evidence is purely phenotypic, though, and they concede the evidence admits other possibilities.  Go to: http://www.psmfc.org/workshops/shconf98.html and scroll down to the last abstract, "The Diversity of Pacific Trouts in Kamchatkan Water Bodies". A "final" answer will probably have to await complete sequencing of the DNA from a number of native populations across the entire range of the species.  That’s no doubt a long way off.  There’s a lot of research being done on the genetics of rainbow trout (a complete nucleotide sequence for mitochondrial DNA was published in ‘95).  Much, probably most, of it is on hatchery and/or introduced populations rather than native ones. JR

Response:

… a complete nucleotide sequence for mitochondrial DNA was published in ‘95) …

Datapoint – within each cell of a human, there is one strand of mitochondrial DNA and 23 pairs (46 strands) of nuclear DNA. For salmon/trout, there is again just one strand of mitochondrial DNA but anywhere from ~26 to 39 pairs of nuclear DNA. The mitochondrial DNA is interesting because it is passed down maternally, so it is useful for tracking lineage. It is also the case that it is only ~16,500 base pairs (roughly letters) long and not highly variable. Nuclear DNA (also called genomic or genetic DNA) on the other hand is passed down from both parents, is constantly mixed up in each individual, and is really the stuff that controls who/what each of us is and or could be. In humans, genetic DNA represents roughly 3 billion base pairs, and in salmon/trout, roughly 2.4 billion base pairs. Many fish studies to date have tried to draw conclusions from the easier-to-work-with mitochondrial DNA, but the really interesting results will come from an in-depth study of the nuclear DNA.  As of last year, the more advanced studies going on in the Columbia Basin were drawing conclusions based on 17/1000 of 1% of the nuclear DNA. Thomas Gilg

Response:

Steelhead trout originated in Southern California … or points south in Mexico. San Diego county drainages had steelhead and salmon runs as late as the 1940’s. Recently, steelhead were discovered in San Mateo creek, just north of Camp Pendleton in San Diego county, and efforts are underway to return this stream to a viable steelhead fishery.  (A very uphill battle!) If you live in the San Diego/Orange County area and would like to participate in a ‘Camping/Cleanup" being conducted on September 8 and 9 (no fishing, strictly a habitat improvement mission), send me email and I’ll send you the details. FiddleAway

Response:

Steelhead trout originated in Southern California … or points south in Mexico.

?? JR

Response:

Steelhead trout originated in Southern California … or points south in Mexico. ??

At least when the last ice age retreated 10-13,000 years ago, there were ice sheets on both sides of the Columbia River, hence the Columbia is where salmon held over during the last ice age, and once the ice retreated, those salmon spread north and south to their current range. Going back in time, it would be interesting where else salmon many have "held over" and "originated". –tg

Response:

Steelhead trout originated in Southern California … or points south in Mexico. ?? JR

There are some theories based on comparative analysis of DNA from rainbows native to this region versus that from rainbows native further north which point at them possibly being genetically the least changed and therefore the oldest. This is alluded to by Loev in his book "Flyfishing For Sharks." Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories Phone: (650)-857-5491               Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971          

Response:

There are some theories based on comparative analysis of DNA from rainbows native to this region versus that from rainbows native further north which point at them possibly being genetically the least changed and therefore the oldest. This is alluded to by Loev in his book "Flyfishing For Sharks."

That’s interesting. I’ll steal a glance at that section of the book on my next visit to Borders, if they haven’t gone and sold it yet. (Sorry, Rich). Still, even if southern stocks of native rainbows are the oldest, it doesn’t necessarily mean that those stocks were the first to adopt anadromy. FiddleAway:  Do folks know where the steelhead "discovered" in Mateo Creek came from?  Are they strays or what?  Also, if you haven’t yet seen it, you might be interested in: http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/species/steelhead/ JR

Response:

Michael McGuire There are some theories based on comparative analysis of DNA from rainbows native to this region versus that from rainbows native further north which point at them possibly being genetically the least changed and therefore the oldest. This is alluded to by Loev in his book "Flyfishing For Sharks."

One theory is that Colorado Cutts are the grandaddies of the west coast trout strains.  The theory is that seagoiong cutts migrated into the Sea of Cortez and down the east coast of Baja, when the latter had a much wetter climate. Eventually these strains migrated down around Cabo and up the Pacific Coast, becoming the Steelhead/Rainbows we know today. The sourthern steelhead eventually developed a tolerance for warmer waters and a life cycle that could tolerate their home streams not being open to the sea every year. As I said before, salmon and steelhead were caught in San Diego county through the 1940’s (maybe later).  There is currently a trout fishery in Mexico on the Pacific side of its central mountain range.  The Melling Ranch is a commercial outfit that caters to people who wish to try this fishery … these trout are not seagoing trout, however. Today, there are still a few steelhead that return to Malibu Creek just north of LA.  At one time, NMFS had set Malibu as the southernmost point for giving special protection status to the fishery.  They’ve balked at extending the protective unit as far as San Mateo creek on the border of Orange/San Diego county, but DNA evidence has shown the trout found there to be a unique strain of southern steelhead.  Not sure what the current legal status is.  I think NMFS is still dragging its heels, but local clubs and conservation associations are continuing to push for restoration of this fishery. Hence, the clean up. FiddleAway

Response:

John Russell  wrote FiddleAway:  Do folks know where the steelhead "discovered" in Mateo Creek came from?  Are they strays or what?  Also, if you haven’t yet seen it, you might be interested in:

The folks I talked to pretty much subscribe to the theory I posted in another response. The study of the creek ensued after trout where caught in its upper reaches. Fin clippings from some 40 odd individuals showed that all of the trout were in the same, 2 year old, generation.  This fact correlated to a heavier winter, two years prior, that had opened up the mouth of the Creek to the ocean. DNA analysis ruled out any relation to stocked strains.  These were natural fish that chose to migrate into the creek from the ocean. FiddleAway

Response:

John Russell  wrote FiddleAway:  Do folks know where the steelhead "discovered" in Mateo Creek came from?  Are they strays or what?  Also, if you haven’t yet seen it, you might be interested in: The folks I talked to pretty much subscribe to the theory I posted in another response.

You’ll have to excuse me if I seem dense, but in your response to Michael (which is the only other one I’ve seen on my server, and I’m assuming is the one you mean), you only say that "DNA evidence has shown the trout found there to be a unique strain of southern steelhead."   The study of the creek ensued after trout where caught in its upper reaches. Fin clippings from some 40 odd individuals showed that all of the trout were in the same, 2 year old, generation.  This fact correlated to a heavier winter, two years prior, that had opened up the mouth of the Creek to the ocean. DNA analysis ruled out any relation to stocked strains.  These were natural fish that chose to migrate into the creek from the ocean.

So you’re saying that these are resident San Mateo rainbows that two years ago, for the first time in decades (or longer) migrated to sea–which is not at all impossible.  Or, in other words, that they are *not* strays from a neighboring population (either wild or stocked). Here’s the reason I asked (taken from the comments of the Southern California Steelhead Recovery Coalition to NMFS proposed extension of the S. Cal Steelhead ESU): "Although steelhead are known to have well-developed homing abilities (see P. B. Moyle, Inland fishes of California, [1976]), it is also known that southern steelhead commonly stray from their natal streams. This straying may be selectively advantageous because it would allow spawners to opportunistically utilize more favorable streams when their natal streams dried up or were blocked.  (See P. Higgins, Southern California Steelhead Recovery Assessment [1991]). An additional feature of southern steelhead is that they ‘miraculously’ reappeared in large spawning runs when flows became suitable in streams that had been dry or otherwise inaccessible during the previous one or more years. The implication is that streams within the historic range of the Southern California Steelhead ESU that are currently unoccupied may be rediscovered by steelhead at anytime. These unoccupied streams are likely to be discovered when habitat conditions in currently occupied streams are less favorable, indicating that all of the historical range of the Southern California Steelhead ESU is essential for the survival and recovery of this ESU." There’s a larger issue at stake here than the fate of the San Mateo population, as important as that is. JR

Response:

So you’re saying that these are resident San Mateo rainbows that two years ago, for the first time in decades (or longer) migrated to sea–which is not at all impossible.  Or, in other words, that they are *not* strays from a neighboring population (either wild or stocked).

No.  I haven’t heard of any evidence for that.  The DNA evidence shows that these trout are related to other southern steelhead. However, I’d be surprised if there aren’t at least anecdotal reports of people catching steelhead in San Mateo creek earlier in the century when all of the drainages in San Diego county were less impacted by development.  This would be consistent with the passage you quoted from the SCSRC. There’s a larger issue at stake here than the fate of the San Mateo population, as important as that is.

I agree, if you are talking about Southern Steelhead in general as the ‘larger issue’. FiddleAway

Response:

One theory is that Colorado Cutts are the grandaddies of the west coast trout strains.  … An interesting theory…I have not read that one.  

I haven’t either.  I have to admit, I am passing on information I got from someone I know who I take to be well informed on the subject. FiddleAway

Response:

One theory is that Colorado Cutts are the grandaddies of the west coast trout strains.  The theory is that seagoiong cutts migrated into the Sea of Cortez and down the east coast of Baja, when the latter had a much wetter climate. Eventually these strains migrated down around Cabo and up the Pacific Coast, becoming the Steelhead/Rainbows we know today.

An interesting theory…I have not read that one.  My understanding is that the rainbow and cutthroat ancestral lines diverged perhaps as long ago as the Pliocene, and then each ancestral line diverged again to become the species/subspecies that we find today (redband and coastal rainbows and the various subspecies of cutts). Interestingly enough, the southernmost known species of salmonids occurring in watersheds that drain to the Pacific (the Mexican Golden Trout, Apache Trout, and Gila Trout) all appear to be more closely related to rainbows than to cutts.  I would expect the reverse to be true if Colorado River cutts represent the ancestral strain.

Response:

At least when the last ice age retreated 10-13,000 years ago, there were ice sheets on both sides of the Columbia River, hence the Columbia is where salmon held over during the last ice age, and once the ice retreated, those salmon spread north and south to their current range. Going back in time, it would be interesting where else salmon many have "held over" and "originated".

Actually, there appear to have been perhaps 4 evolutionary lines of Rainbow (or Rainbow ancestors) in the Sea of Cortez during the four Pleistocene glacial maxima.  These evolutionary lines are thought to be the source of Apache trout, Gila trout, Mexican Golden trout, and several other unclassified strains (if not distinct species) in the Sierra Madre Occidental range in Mexico.

Response:

Question:

Mary Malmros said… Yeah, but you get other things with a folder, some of which are real important to those of us with fourth-floor walkup apartments, no storage space, and frequent urges to "impulse kayak" on the way home from work Like me!  A folder might be the right solution for me; the problem is, where can you try ‘em out?  I’m sure not gonna sink $3500 into something without a lot of paddling and experimentation.

I can certainly see the portability part, but I’m not too sure about the "impulse" part, having watched someone put one together at the put-in (and not finish by the time I lost sight of her as I paddled away).  Now that was a brand-new Feathercraft, so maybe a little break-in (and experience) would help a lot. -Wayne  Foster-Miller, Inc.        ***Disclaimed***          781-684-4228

Response:

 … I would really hesitate to suggest to someone that was looking for their first kayak to consider a Klepper/Feathercraft for one reason.  They’re expensive.  An Aerius II lists for almost $3500.  Suggesting that someone spend that kind of money for a first boat is absurd when there are boats available at half the price that would meet a beginners needs.   Very few beginning kayakers would need a boat that could be paddled/sailed across the Atlantic.

Of course, you needn’t start with a Klepper; the Folbot Aleut is closer to $1200, and it’s a superb boat. Great boats, great beginner’s boats, and with care they’ll last a lifetime. Get a copy of Ralph Diaz’ book, subscribe to his newsletter and see my web page for more details: http://www.mich.com/~mje/kayak.html — mike

Response:

Hi Mary, I dont know what area of the country you live in, but you need to find a dealer near water. I realize this isnt as easy as it sounds, but in central wisconsin I was able to test paddle a Feathercraft K-1, K-Light, Khatsalano, and a single and double Klepper.   I eventually bought a used Klepper Aerius 1 in very good condition for about $1100 from the Klepper dealer, who was very patient with me (and who has been very helpfull since…. His name is on the shop’s sign too!).   It takes less then 20 min. from bag to the water for my boat, so the after work impules paddling is very do-able.   The boat isnt a speed demon, but it is a gas in rough water.   I realize that I am straying from the point of the original post, though the price I got my folder for wouldnt be out of line for a first boat either, come think of it.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A lot of people have said to try before buying.  There must be big differences in  kayaks. Don’t forget the folding kayak either, which, arguably, may be the best real sea kayak around.  Klepper has been in business for over 90 years (something the plastic and fiberglass guys can’t even comprehend) and fields a kayak (Aerius II) that was paddled/sailed solo across the Atlantic back in 1954 (another thing the hardshell guys can’t comprehend).  Feathercraft, Folbot and others are out there too. I would really hesitate to suggest to someone that was looking for their first kayak to consider a Klepper/Feathercraft for one reason.  They’re expensive.  An Aerius II lists for almost $3500.  Suggesting that someone spend that kind of money for a first boat is absurd when there are boats available at half the price that would meet a beginners needs.   Yeah, but you get other things with a folder, some of which are real important to those of us with fourth-floor walkup apartments, no storage space, and frequent urges to "impulse kayak" on the way home from work Like me!  A folder might be the right solution for me; the problem is, where can you try ‘em out?  I’m sure not gonna sink $3500 into something without a lot of paddling and experimentation.

I agree that there are some definate advantages for a folding kayak. As far as portability they’re hard to beat (although I wouldn’t mind having a three piece hardshell like the Nordkapp either) but as far as a "beginners" boat goes I just can’t see suggesting something that is two to three times as expensive as someting that will suit most beginners needs. I used to see the same thing all the time in the flyfishing newsgroup. Someone would come on asking for recommendations for a flyrod and reel for a beginner and they’d be met with suggestions for a Scott, Winston, Thomas & Thomas, rods that run $350-$500.  I’ve been flyfishing for over 25 years and probably get more use out of my $100 Redington than any of my seven other flyrods.  Someone that is entering a hobby for the first time shouldn’t, IMHO, be spending top of the line prices unless they have money to burn.   John Fereira

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A lot of people have said to try before buying.  There must be big differences in  kayaks. Don’t forget the folding kayak either, which, arguably, may be the best real sea kayak around.  Klepper has been in business for over 90 years (something the plastic and fiberglass guys can’t even comprehend) and fields a kayak (Aerius II) that was paddled/sailed solo across the Atlantic back in 1954 (another thing the hardshell guys can’t comprehend).  Feathercraft, Folbot and others are out there too. I would really hesitate to suggest to someone that was looking for their first kayak to consider a Klepper/Feathercraft for one reason.  They’re expensive.  An Aerius II lists for almost $3500.  Suggesting that someone spend that kind of money for a first boat is absurd when there are boats available at half the price that would meet a beginners needs.  

Yeah, but you get other things with a folder, some of which are real important to those of us with fourth-floor walkup apartments, no storage space, and frequent urges to "impulse kayak" on the way home from work Like me!  A folder might be the right solution for me; the problem is, where can you try ‘em out?  I’m sure not gonna sink $3500 into something without a lot of paddling and experimentation. — ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::         "I would not exchange the sorrows of my heart                 for the joys of the multitude"

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A lot of people have said to try before buying.  There must be big differences in  kayaks. Don’t forget the folding kayak either, which, arguably, may be the best real sea kayak around.  Klepper has been in business for over 90 years (something the plastic and fiberglass guys can’t even comprehend) and fields a kayak (Aerius II) that was paddled/sailed solo across the Atlantic back in 1954 (another thing the hardshell guys can’t comprehend).  Feathercraft, Folbot and others are out there too.

I would really hesitate to suggest to someone that was looking for their first kayak to consider a Klepper/Feathercraft for one reason.  They’re expensive.  An Aerius II lists for almost $3500.  Suggesting that someone spend that kind of money for a first boat is absurd when there are boats available at half the price that would meet a beginners needs.   Very few beginning kayakers would need a boat that could be paddled/sailed across the Atlantic. John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email – Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sea or touring kayak is what I’m looking for.  I’m trying  to learn as much as I can before buying..  I use to do a lot of canoeing when I was younger. Kayaks look like they would be a lot of fun.. They’re an enormous amount of fun, but anyone’s choice of fave boat — or manufacturer — is going to be based on the type of paddler they are and the type of paddling they do.   I’m going to say something that may be a little controversial.  I’ve been reading rbp for about nine months now, and it seems to me that I’ve seen a lot of barely-used "entry-level" boats for sale, on this and other forums.  Now, I could be wrong…but that makes me wonder if a lot of people are buying in a hurry, maybe talking themselves into buying something because they get a good price on a package, and quickly outgrowing that first boat (or finding out, as they spend more time paddling, that it is a good boat but really not suited for the type of paddling they want to do).  

You won’t get any argument from me.  I think part of the reason stems from the idea that the only thing "entry level" about a lot of those boats for sale are the prices.  Sea kayaking seems to have an identity crisis.  It seems that everything from a Perception Keowee to a VCP Nordkapp is classified as a "sea kayak".  There seems to be a range of boats, typically between 13-15′ in length, usually wider than 24" with lots of initial stabilty that (also partially because of their price) are thought of as "entry level" boats.  In my opinion, this class of boats are designed for paddling conditions more so than for beginners.  In fact, I have found that the characteristics of this class does more to keep it’s paddlers at an "entry level" more than anything.  They’re good boats if you want something that is going to be very stable for taking pictures and don’t plan on paddling in rough conditions.  If you want something that is going to allow one to become proficient in rough conditions their stability is going to restrict ones ability to improve. John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email – Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

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A lot of people have said to try before buying.  There must be big differences in  kayaks.

Don’t forget the folding kayak either, which, arguably, may be the best real sea kayak around.  Klepper has been in business for over 90 years (something the plastic and fiberglass guys can’t even comprehend) and fields a kayak (Aerius II) that was paddled/sailed solo across the Atlantic back in 1954 (another thing the hardshell guys can’t comprehend).  Feathercraft, Folbot and others are out there too.

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Al Bowers said… Something else to consider, the paddle is more important to enjoyment than even the boat is.  If you have to scrimp a bit on the boat for a top notch paddle, that’s a good idea…

I agree.  A boat can be nice or not so great, but the paddle can make or break the whole experience. We’re going to try a boat for my wife this weekend (maybe).  She’s tried a couple of boats, and I think we’re getting close.  We’re down to the Seda Swift, Perception Sea Lion, and the Perception Shadow…

I didn’t like the Sea Lion at all, personally (and this was the boat I thought I would like).  The deck was too high, the cockpit absolutely huge (I’m 5′10", 175 lbs), and I had a heck of a time making it move.  I did like the Shadow, which was tight and quick, even though (or perhaps partially because) it was too small for me.   Don’t know the Seda Swift. I’m getting ready to build a couple of Pygmy Arctic Terns for my wife and myself. -Wayne  Foster-Miller, Inc.        ***Disclaimed***          781-684-4228

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Erie Pa (Lake Erie) There is a place nearby that rents them.  I have to wate for the water to worm up a bit.  A lot of people have said to try before buying.  There must be big differences in  kayaks.

The more you paddle the better you’ll be able to detect the differences. I realize that it’s a bit of a drive but a friend of mine is opening up a shop in Ithaca, NY.  I’m helping him move some of his boats in this weekend (and will be storing mine there as well since it’s right on the water).  If you ever get over this way let me know.  He’s about about 15 different boats that you could try.  Watch of demo days and symposiums. They’re a great way to try out a variety of boats. John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email – Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

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Bill Zimmerman said…  A lot of people have said to try before buying.  There must be big differences in  kayaks. Oh, yeah!  If you start in basic ignorance, then

Good advice to try before you buy.  Or at least have a very good idea at what you want to do.  Even within the "touring" or "sea kayak" genre there is considerable variation; expeditions boats, mid-line touring boats, performance boats, race boats, etc, plus combinations of the above eg: performance expedition boats… 1) Make a list of boats to look at (helped along here, of course), 2) Find out the supposed characteristics of each, 3) Pick the one you think you’ll end up liking, and 4) Go try them all out,

Make a list of the things you want to do and how much time you’ll be doing them.  Say you want to do a BIG trip, like Bowron or the Inside Passage (Vancouver to Alaska), but most of your trips will be short day trips.  then you need a boat that might just work on the long trip, but is biased towards the daytripper type boat. I think your (or anyone else’s) initial guess is usually wrong.  If it isn’t wrong, congratuations, you proved you were right and will be happier with the boat knowing it was the right choice.   You gotta try the boats.  You should check Deja News for recent threads on sea kayak selection, since this isn’t a new subject around here.

Having built 5 boats, and buying 3 over a period of 26 years, when I wanted a high performance boat I had a pretty good idea of _exactly_ what I wanted.  No frills, high performance, to be used for exercise, fast day touring, and the occasional long trip.  I bought a Seda Glider and a Werner Pegasus wing paddle; and I couldn’t be happier with them.  It’s an awesome combination that will exceed my abilities for as long as I continue to paddle. Something else to consider, the paddle is more important to enjoyment than even the boat is.  If you have to scrimp a bit on the boat for a top notch paddle, that’s a good idea.  Try different paddles as well, higher end if you can.  Then after you start to form some opinions on what you like and don’t like, then start trying your desired paddle and boat to see if you were right.  Then you’re REALLY ready to buy… We’re going to try a boat for my wife this weekend (maybe).  She’s tried a couple of boats, and I think we’re getting close.  We’re down to the Seda Swift, Perception Sea Lion, and the Perception Shadow… Al Bowers

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As for touring boats, I can tell you who isn’t the best. Valley Canoe Products. If anyone wants to hear the long version, email me.

Since I own a VCP boat and have been very happy with it I’d like to hear the long version.  If you don’t want to post it her you can send me email. I haven’t paddled the Skerray in plastic but I have glass version and have demo’d a Pintail, Anas Acuta,  and an Aquilla and liked them all.  I haven’t paddled one, and I realize they’re not for everyone, the Nordkapp remains one of the most popular designs in the world. I probably wouldn’t claim that they are the "best" boats but I would put VCP up near the top in terms of performance, ocean worthiness,  construction, and appointments.   The VCP hatch covers are practically an industry standard. John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email – Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

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Sea or touring kayak is what I’m looking for.  I’m trying  to learn as much as I can before buying..  I use to do a lot of canoeing when I was younger. Kayaks look like they would be a lot of fun.. Bill

If you’re looking for a durable tandem touring kayak I’d take a look at the Necky Amaruk.   Sea or touring kayaks come in a variety of materials.  The most inexpensive (and generally the most durable) are plastic or polyethelene kayaks.  Different vendors use different methods for constructing plastic boats.  Prijon generally seems to have the best plastic in the business but generally plastic boats are pretty indestructible.  They’re also heavier and slower than boats made with other materials. Fiberglass boats are lighter and their construction allows finer lines than you’ll find in a plastic boat.  The material is also stiffer and smoother which also contributes to speed.  The drawbacks are that they are more expensive and are less durable than plastic (although if you do damage a glass boat it’s easier to repair than plastic). Many models available in fiberglass are layed up with kevlar rather than fiberglass.  They have all the benefits of a fiberglass boat but are even lighter and are more durable.  They are also significantly more expensive. Wood kayaks seem to be becoming more and more popular.  There are a couple of major kit suppliers (Pygmy and Chesapeake Light Craft) that produce some fine kits that someone without prior woodworking skills can build using a stitch-n-glue technique.  For about the price of a plastic boat you can build a wood boat (actually fiberglass over wood) boat.  They’re lighter than almost all fiberglass and kevlar boats, have about the same durability as a glass boat.  They require a little more maintenance but can be repaired if damaged and of course require the time to build.  They are, however, some of the prettiest kayaks you’ll find on the water.  There are also a few kits and/or plans available for wood kayaks built using narrow strips.  They’re more work but can produce some gorgeous boats.   There aren’t that many around but some people are still building skin over frame boats. There are a couple of other materials worth mentioning.  There are a few companies that build "take apart" boats that use a frame with a waterproof fabric cover.  Klepper, Feathercraft, and Folbot are three such companies. These kayaks can be quite expensive but can’t be beat for portability (many will fold up into a backpack).  There are also some decent inflatable kayaks. You’ll even find some sea kayaks which use combinations of materials. John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email – Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

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Bill Zimmerman said… Erie Pa (Lake Erie) There is a place nearby that rents them.  I have to wate for the water to worm up a bit.

    ^^^^ Still a big eel problem up there?  ;-)  A lot of people have said to try before buying.  There must be big differences in  kayaks.

Oh, yeah!  If you start in basic ignorance, then 1) Make a list of boats to look at (helped along here, of course), 2) Find out the supposed characteristics of each, 3) Pick the one you think you’ll end up liking, and 4) Go try them all out, I think your (or anyone else’s) initial guess is usually wrong.  If it isn’t wrong, congratuations, you proved you were right and will be happier with the boat knowing it was the right choice.   You gotta try the boats.  You should check Deja News for recent threads on sea kayak selection, since this isn’t a new subject around here. -Wayne  Foster-Miller, Inc.        ***Disclaimed***          781-684-4228

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As for touring boats, I can tell you who isn’t the best. Valley Canoe Products. If anyone wants to hear the long version, email me. Jeff

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Mary Malmros said… I’m going to say something that may be a little controversial.  I’ve been reading rbp for about nine months now, and it seems to me that I’ve seen a lot of barely-used "entry-level" boats for sale, on this and other forums.  Now, I could be wrong…but that makes me wonder if a lot of people are buying in a hurry, maybe talking themselves into buying something because they get a good price on a package, and quickly outgrowing that first boat (or finding out, as they spend more time paddling, that it is a good boat but really not suited for the type of paddling they want to do).  

I think that’s true in many cases, but I think there might also be a certain amount of the ‘exercise machine syndrome’, where someone is convinced kayaking’s for them, runs out and buys a boat (in many cases the wrong boat), and finds out the sport’s not for them.  A lot of people look at kayaking and get a funny look in their eye at the thought of how beautiful it must be out there.  Others look at it and think that it looks a lot like work.  A lot of the used boats are from people who got the look in their eye and _then_ found out it was a lot like work. -Wayne  Foster-Miller, Inc.        ***Disclaimed***          781-684-4228

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Sea or touring kayak is what I’m looking for.  I’m trying  to learn as much as I can before buying..  I use to do a lot of canoeing when I was younger. Kayaks look like they would be a lot of fun.. That’s a horrible question to ask. It depends on what you’re looking for.

It’s still a horrible question. Plastic or glass? Inland lake or open water? And so on, and so on. "Best" is relative, based on what you want to use it for and the conditions you want to use it in. "Best" can change with every stroke of the paddle. At your stage, the "best" you can hope for is "pretty good." There are an awful lot of touring boats out there that fall into the category of "pretty good." — Wes

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Erie Pa (Lake Erie) There is a place nearby that rents them.  I have to wate for the water to worm up a bit.  A lot of people have said to try before buying.  There must be big differences in  kayaks.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sea or touring kayak is what I’m looking for.  I’m trying  to learn as much as I can before buying..  I use to do a lot of canoeing when I was younger. Kayaks look like they would be a lot of fun.. They’re an enormous amount of fun, but anyone’s choice of fave boat — or manufacturer — is going to be based on the type of paddler they are and the type of paddling they do. I’m going to say something that may be a little controversial.  I’ve been reading rbp for about nine months now, and it seems to me that I’ve seen a lot of barely-used "entry-level" boats for sale, on this and other forums.  Now, I could be wrong…but that makes me wonder if a lot of people are buying in a hurry, maybe talking themselves into buying something because they get a good price on a package, and quickly outgrowing that first boat (or finding out, as they spend more time paddling, that it is a good boat but really not suited for the type of paddling they want to do). The nice thing about choosing a sea or touring kayak is that it’s not too hard to find liveries where you can try out a lot of different boats.  I think it’s worth the investment in time and rental fees. An inexpensive touring kayak might list for no more than a few hundred dollars, a really superior one could be close to ten times that, but whether it’s a little or a lot, it’s wasted money if it’s not the right thing for you.  I’ve paddled touring kayaks by Necky, Wilderness Systems, Current Designs, Perception, Walden, and others, but I’d want to paddle a lot more before making a purchase. Where are you located?  Perhaps someone can recommend a livery in your area where you can get some instruction and some paddling time. — :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: "I would not exchange the sorrows of my heart for the joys of the multitude"

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Sea or touring kayak is what I’m looking for.  I’m trying  to learn as much as I can before buying..  I use to do a lot of canoeing when I was younger. Kayaks look like they would be a lot of fun..

They’re an enormous amount of fun, but anyone’s choice of fave boat — or manufacturer — is going to be based on the type of paddler they are and the type of paddling they do.   I’m going to say something that may be a little controversial.  I’ve been reading rbp for about nine months now, and it seems to me that I’ve seen a lot of barely-used "entry-level" boats for sale, on this and other forums.  Now, I could be wrong…but that makes me wonder if a lot of people are buying in a hurry, maybe talking themselves into buying something because they get a good price on a package, and quickly outgrowing that first boat (or finding out, as they spend more time paddling, that it is a good boat but really not suited for the type of paddling they want to do).   The nice thing about choosing a sea or touring kayak is that it’s not too hard to find liveries where you can try out a lot of different boats.  I think it’s worth the investment in time and rental fees. An inexpensive touring kayak might list for no more than a few hundred dollars, a really superior one could be close to ten times that, but whether it’s a little or a lot, it’s wasted money if it’s not the right thing for you.  I’ve paddled touring kayaks by Necky, Wilderness Systems, Current Designs, Perception, Walden, and others, but I’d want to paddle a lot more before making a purchase. Where are you located?  Perhaps someone can recommend a livery in your area where you can get some instruction and some paddling time. — ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::         "I would not exchange the sorrows of my heart                 for the joys of the multitude"

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Who is the best kayak manufacture??

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Who is the best kayak manufacture??

     You forgot the "r" on the end of that last word.      The best kayak manufacturer has got to be Nanook of the North. Splash

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That’s a horrible question to ask. It depends on what you’re looking for. Prijon probably has the most durable boats, while Riot has the most radical designs. Wavesport has great plastic and designs… etc. Not to mention, whitewater companies are completely different in this area than touring, slalom, and sea kayaks. Sam —    Nothing is fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Who is the best kayak manufacture??

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Sea or touring kayak is what I’m looking for.  I’m trying  to learn as much as I can before buying..  I use to do a lot of canoeing when I was younger. Kayaks look like they would be a lot of fun.. Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s a horrible question to ask. It depends on what you’re looking for. Prijon probably has the most durable boats, while Riot has the most radical designs. Wavesport has great plastic and designs… etc. Not to mention, whitewater companies are completely different in this area than touring, slalom, and sea kayaks. Sam —    Nothing is fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool. Who is the best kayak manufacture??

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have only been flyfishing for a few months, most of my trips have been in the Townsend area of the Smokies.  I have fished the Tremont (Middle Prong of Little River)  area several times with limited success.  I have the opportunity this weekend to fish Deep Creek (Bryson City, NC) and I have decided to swallow my pride and ask for advice here so I hopefully won’t get "blanked" and ruin my vacation!  For Tremont, I have used 6X tippets and patterns of caddis, adams, black gnats, beadhead phesant tail nymph. My specific questions:  What time of day should be the most successful in either of these areas (Tremont or Deep Creek)?  What patterns are most effective for Deep Creek?  Any advice on presentation to these skittish mountain trout?  Any particular areas of Deep Creek that anyone has had experience fishing before? Thanks very much, Dan Please reply to group

Dan, This time of the year you want to fish very early or very late in the day….most trout I know take long siestas when the water warms up during the day. The patterns you are using are fine…I might add a black ant and a yellow sally to your arsenal. Good luck…. –Walt

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have very good luck with elk hair caddis. I fish Tremont usually in the afternoon but not always. And don’t forget those wooly buggers! Bryce I have only been flyfishing for a few months, most of my trips have been in the Townsend area of the Smokies.  I have fished the Tremont (Middle Prong of Little River)  area several times with limited success.  I have the opportunity this weekend to fish Deep Creek (Bryson City, NC) and I have decided to swallow my pride and ask for advice here so I hopefully won’t get "blanked" and ruin my vacation!  For Tremont, I have used 6X tippets and patterns of caddis, adams, black gnats, beadhead phesant tail nymph. My specific questions:  What time of day should be the most successful in either of these areas (Tremont or Deep Creek)?  What patterns are most effective for Deep Creek?  Any advice on presentation to these skittish mountain trout?  Any particular areas of Deep Creek that anyone has had experience fishing before?

Hi! Tremont should be good early in the morning or late at night. I stay away from the lower portion of Deep Creek this time of the year, due to all  the tourists and tubers. Go above Indian creek. Also try West prong of Little River while you are over in that area. Go backcountry away from Laurel creek rd. Try a Thunderhead dry, it’s a NC pattern that’s very similar to an Adams Wulff. Hans

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have very good luck with elk hair caddis. I fish Tremont usually in the afternoon but not always. And don’t forget those wooly buggers! Bryce I have only been flyfishing for a few months, most of my trips have been in the Townsend area of the Smokies.  I have fished the Tremont (Middle Prong of Little River)  area several times with limited success.  I have the opportunity this weekend to fish Deep Creek (Bryson City, NC) and I have decided to swallow my pride and ask for advice here so I hopefully won’t get "blanked" and ruin my vacation!  For Tremont, I have used 6X tippets and patterns of caddis, adams, black gnats, beadhead phesant tail nymph. My specific questions:  What time of day should be the most successful in either of these areas (Tremont or Deep Creek)?  What patterns are most effective for Deep Creek?  Any advice on presentation to these skittish mountain trout?  Any particular areas of Deep Creek that anyone has had experience fishing before? Hi! Tremont should be good early in the morning or late at night. I stay away from the lower portion of Deep Creek this time of the year, due to all  the tourists and tubers. Go above Indian creek. Also try West prong of Little River while you are over in that area. Go backcountry away from Laurel creek rd. Try a Thunderhead dry, it’s a NC pattern that’s very similar to an Adams Wulff. Hans

I fished Deep Creek a coupla years ago and ran across a native of the area who was having great luck on a parachute Adams morning and late afternoon.  I might add that he was quite stealthy and could read water very well.

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I have very good luck with elk hair caddis. I fish Tremont usually in the afternoon but not always. And don’t forget those wooly buggers! Bryce – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have only been flyfishing for a few months, most of my trips have been in the Townsend area of the Smokies.  I have fished the Tremont (Middle Prong of Little River)  area several times with limited success.  I have the opportunity this weekend to fish Deep Creek (Bryson City, NC) and I have decided to swallow my pride and ask for advice here so I hopefully won’t get "blanked" and ruin my vacation!  For Tremont, I have used 6X tippets and patterns of caddis, adams, black gnats, beadhead phesant tail nymph. My specific questions:  What time of day should be the most successful in either of these areas (Tremont or Deep Creek)?  What patterns are most effective for Deep Creek?  Any advice on presentation to these skittish mountain trout?  Any particular areas of Deep Creek that anyone has had experience fishing before?

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Thanks to all who replied to my original post.  Your advice will be very helpful.  I plan to spend the next couple of days on Deep Creek, so I will try to give you a report (to the group) next week.   Thanks again, Dan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have very good luck with elk hair caddis. I fish Tremont usually in the afternoon but not always. And don’t forget those wooly buggers! Bryce I have only been flyfishing for a few months, most of my trips have been in the Townsend area of the Smokies.  I have fished the Tremont (Middle Prong of Little River)  area several times with limited success.  I have the opportunity this weekend to fish Deep Creek (Bryson City, NC) and I have decided to swallow my pride and ask for advice here so I hopefully won’t get "blanked" and ruin my vacation!  For Tremont, I have used 6X tippets and patterns of caddis, adams, black gnats, beadhead phesant tail nymph. My specific questions:  What time of day should be the most successful in either of these areas (Tremont or Deep Creek)?  What patterns are most effective for Deep Creek?  Any advice on presentation to these skittish mountain trout?  Any particular areas of Deep Creek that anyone has had experience fishing before? Hi! Tremont should be good early in the morning or late at night. I stay away from the lower portion of Deep Creek this time of the year, due to all  the tourists and tubers. Go above Indian creek. Also try West prong of Little River while you are over in that area. Go backcountry away from Laurel creek rd. Try a Thunderhead dry, it’s a NC pattern that’s very similar to an Adams Wulff. Hans I fished Deep Creek a coupla years ago and ran across a native of the area who was having great luck on a parachute Adams morning and late afternoon.  I might add that he was quite stealthy and could read water very well.

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I have only been flyfishing for a few months, most of my trips have been in the Townsend area of the Smokies.  I have fished the Tremont (Middle Prong of Little River)  area several times with limited success.  I have the opportunity this weekend to fish Deep Creek (Bryson City, NC) and I have decided to swallow my pride and ask for advice here so I hopefully won’t get "blanked" and ruin my vacation!  For Tremont, I have used 6X tippets and patterns of caddis, adams, black gnats, beadhead phesant tail nymph. My specific questions:  What time of day should be the most successful in either of these areas (Tremont or Deep Creek)?  What patterns are most effective for Deep Creek?  Any advice on presentation to these skittish mountain trout?  Any particular areas of Deep Creek that anyone has had experience fishing before? Thanks very much, Dan Please reply to group

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Question:

Anyone out there heard of a good trailing shuck imitation.  In jams, I’ve used panty-hose, and of course z-lon when tying.

Aunt Lydia’s rug and craft yarn.

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Anyone out there heard of a good trailing shuck imitation.  In jams, I’ve used panty-hose, and of course z-lon when tying.  I want something a little better. Any suggestions? Thanks- J W Kramer @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@   "See Dick fly-fish.    See Dick catch fish.    See Dick kill fish."           DON’T BE A DICK!  PRACTICE AND TEACH CATCH AND RELEASE @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@

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Anyone been fishing yet this year in the Catskills?  I will be coming home from college in early May and would like some info on conditions, ect…  I particularly like fishing the smaller streams.  Any info is greatly appreciated.  Thanks ERIC

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Anyone been fishing yet this year in the Catskills?  I will be coming home from college in early May and would like some info on conditions, ect…  I particularly like fishing the smaller streams.  Any info is greatly appreciated.  Thanks ERIC

Eric, Spent the weekend up at the Beaverkill. The Great Flood scoured the river severely, creating deep holes where there were none before, and dumping big boulders where you can be sure to trip and fall. Some say most of the fish were swept out of the Willowemoc and Beaverkill into the main Delaware. But others say the fish&game people located 38 out of 39 big browns fitted with radio antennas in much the same places they were before the flood. Others are equally concerned about the insect population. The riverbed was churned up pretty badly. Half of Roscoe campsite, just below Junction Pool, was inundated with muddy waters that left a foot of river sand. I checked a few rocks at Junction Pool and found nymphs under almost every rock at the edges of the riffles. Between the flood and the droughts of the past few years, it would be a pleasant surprise if we saw great hatches this season. So far, I’ve seen a few early stoneflies,   small caddis and some tiny Olives. Nothing to get excited or depressed about. Great Flood, was done in by a spin fisherman on the Willowemoc. It won the opening day honors on April 1st. And the state trucks were spottted stocking up and down the Beaverkill on Monday, April 22nd. As for the weekend fishing, Mary Dette described it as slow in her daily reports, which she said was to be expected in April. I met a lot of fishermen on the river, which is still running high, and very few of them had caught a single fish. I don’t want to be caught telling fish stories, but I caught a half dozen trout Friday evening on a #12 Hendrickson (yup!) and another dozen late Monday afternoon on a variety od #16 nymphs. None of them really count. They were all in an innocent looking eddy, where they were dumped by fish&game folk, or where they sought cover from the heavy water. All were the size of stocked fish, and included a couple of rainbows. One guide told me all of them were holdovers, and that rainbows, because of whirling disease, weren’t being stocked. (I listen but I don’t always believe.) Naturally, I won’t say where I caught all these trout. Anyhow, they aren’t there any longer. Every trout I caught was unceremoniously dumped into the fast riffles in the main river. It may be a little tougher in the fast lane, but they’ll have a better of escaping the two-legged, meat-loving predators. Hell, I want to enjoy those trout all season! The highlight of the weekend was the fly tying by Ted Patlen at the Catskill Fly Fishing Center & Museum. I think he tied one of everything, and had a solution to most of my fly-tying problems. He ties flies that catch fish, as well as those that catch anglers. Ted works at Ramsey Outdoors in Paramus, NJ.

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I’ve heard Montauk State Park is located on the headwaters of the Current River and has access to trout flyfishing area.  Looking for more info from someone who knows this area.  I’m thinking of going there in May. Regards to all, Robert

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Try: http://www.agron.missouri.edu/flyfishing/ John Nesselrode Shawnee, KS

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You’re right. Montauk is the head of the current river, and offers considerable amount of trout water. But it’s going to be fairly crowded, even on the stretch of flies-only water. –

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I’ve heard Montauk State Park is located on the headwaters of the Current River and has access to trout flyfishing area.  Looking for more info from someone who knows this area.  I’m thinking of going there in May. Regards to all, Robert

Go! The fishing in the park is mostly corn etc, yet there are some sections for flies only. Good if you want to go fishmarket fishing. Nice place. Great place for kids. The park has a couple of places for catch and release fishing, a small stream and a lake. Current river itself is beautiful. There are a couple of access points just downstream of the park. (get a map and a sturdy vehicle) "Baptist Camp" is the one I usually go to and fish up and down stream. I have had some great days upstream under the canopy of trees. Generally it’s best to find a guide and float the river (canoe) if you want to get the most out of it due to somewhat limited access due to purposeful design. The canoe is used mainly for transportation to wade spots, although I have caught a few from the boat. I have never caught any really large fish on the Current, but normally catch quite a few in the 14 to 25 category. I used a guy by the name of Tom Shipley. Don’t know his wherebouts these days. Maybe you will get some names on this posting. Kevin Williams

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