Question:

I eventually landed several beautiful, dark colored rainbows and lost several more as I slipped and slid my way along the ice.  I did lose a rather nice rainbow due to ice in the guides, but such is fishing during this time of year.  I was a little rusty from not having fished in almost two months, but it all came back rather quickly.  Funny how sometimes the harder you try, the worse you get and then you just let things happen and it is like you never even had that extended break. Probably the best thing about actually taking that break is that I rediscovered what fly fishing is to me and just how much it means to me.  I even caught some fish which made it all that much sweeter.  The best fish I landed, a 17" rainbow, had me mesmerized after I slipped the hook out of his mouth.  He lay there in the net peacefully, as if to give me ample time to admire his beauty before I released him.

Thanks for the report. Glad to hear you got out.  Winter Rainbows do seem to be somehow more colorful. Willi

Response:

Warren, Have you tried a Leader Link? Ernie

Is that leader link the braided loop thing that you slide over your flyline tip and then secure with a little bit of tubing and some glue?

Response:

Warren, Have you tried a Leader Link? Ernie Is that leader link the braided loop thing that you slide over your flyline tip and then secure with a little bit of tubing and some glue?

No. They’re little plastic, tube-like things, with holes through each end and two slots on the middle. You run the flyline through a hole, run it up through a slot, tie a knot in the end, and pull it tight. Do the same thing with the leader through the other hole. They work great. They’re made by Eagle Claw. I add a butt section with a leader link and then tie on the leader with a blood knot. To replace leaders I just cut and retie at the butt section. It might last for months. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

"Michael" wrote Is that leader link the braided loop thing that you slide over your flyline tip and then secure with a little bit of tubing and some glue?

Michael,   It is a little nylon piece, shaped like a grain of rice, but a little larger with a hole through the center the long way and a hole through the sides. Ernie

Response:

I haven’t had time to post this sooner, but I went fishing this last Saturday on the Yellowstone.  It was a cold day, the wind was howling, and there were several snow flurries causing temporary white outs. Perfect day to be alone on the river. Before heading out, I stopped in at Dan Bailey’s to check the board and see if they had any recent info.  After being told that there wasn’t much happening on the river and that the spring creeks were fishing well, I still decided to head out.  I did receive several looks that all but said "Are you nuts?!?!"  Well, that is still being debated but I went out anyway. I found a nice stretch of water that wasn’t being blasted by the wind and as I rigged up the snow stopped.  The wind also started letting up from a constant gale force wind, to an occasional strong gust.  Things started off slow and I proceeded to work my way upstream where I got into a pod of whitefish.  After catching two and remembering some fond memories of JeffC the Whitefish King, I moved further upstream in search of trout. I eventually landed several beautiful, dark colored rainbows and lost several more as I slipped and slid my way along the ice.  I did lose a rather nice rainbow due to ice in the guides, but such is fishing during this time of year.  I was a little rusty from not having fished in almost two months, but it all came back rather quickly.  Funny how sometimes the harder you try, the worse you get and then you just let things happen and it is like you never even had that extended break. Probably the best thing about actually taking that break is that I rediscovered what fly fishing is to me and just how much it means to me.  I even caught some fish which made it all that much sweeter.  The best fish I landed, a 17" rainbow, had me mesmerized after I slipped the hook out of his mouth.  He lay there in the net peacefully, as if to give me ample time to admire his beauty before I released him. A few weeks ago I asked if anyone had ever tried using that Zap-a-Gap connection for joining the leader to the fly line.  After getting no response I decided to try it.  Not only did it hold very well, but it was a nice change of pace in not having to fight the line hanging up on the guides.  Even when ice began clogging the guides, the fly line and leader connection would pass through without hang ups. I am now planning on carrying the needle, needle vise, and Zap-a-Gap in my vest in case I need to change a leader.  It is a very quick and easy way to connect a leader to a fly line and I found it much easier than tying a nail knot.  I am still amazed at how easily the connection passes through the guides. — Warren Findley

Response:

Warren, Have you tried a Leader Link? Ernie "Warren" wrote <snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am now planning on carrying the needle, needle vise, and Zap-a-Gap in my vest in case I need to change a leader.  It is a very quick and easy way to connect a leader to a fly line and I found it much easier than tying a nail knot.  I am still amazed at how easily the connection passes through the guides. Warren Findley

Response:

Warren, Have you tried a Leader Link? Ernie

I actually installed a Leader Link on Warren’s line during the Western Clave, Ernie. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

(another excellent report snipped) Hey Warren, I caught a fish on your little green seredipitiy sunday. The fish were visible because the stream is so low, and there were midges hatching all over.  My favorite winter bug (extra fuzzy small hare’s ear) wasn’t working, so just for the hell of it i tied on your 18 green serendipity.  I’ve tried since the montana trip to catch a NM trout with a one of those flies and it finally worked.  I was in a small stream near albq. BTW, these were real midges that you could actually see with the naked eye, not those tiny SJ midges.  If your ears were ringing Dec 9-12 it’s because we must have said "warren would like this river" 20 times. bruce h — bare your soul let your spirit burn out along the road to no return – r.e. keen

Response:

Question:

 Anxious to try my new Diamondback All American 6.5 ft. 3 wt. rod I brought it into work today.  Fortunately I have a huge lake right out the back door of my office.  I don’t usually fish warm water but this was the first chance I would have to try the rod.  I started with a #16 Bead Head Hare’s Ear nymph.  The rod was a little slower than I remember it but felt great.  Line was a SA Mastery WF3F with about 4 ft. of the forward section removed.  I attached a Cortland loop tip and AirFlo 5 ft. light trout leader.  The tippet was 5X.  I felt the Fly Logic FLP 345 was a little heavy for the rod.  I will probably look for something lighter.  The cork was large for this small rod and filled my hand nicely.  The rod tip is soft enough to flip over just the tippet nicely and the butt has the stifness to pump out a 40 ft. cast effortlessly.  Diamondback uses unsanded blanks and first impression is of a rough finish.  Wrappings are well done in dark green and the rod has a pleasing appearance.  The ferrul lacks witness marks, I’ll remedy this later.  I threw the nymph and a #8 popper with rubber legs and hair tail in yellow (per Big Dale’s recommendation).  The rig let me pinpoint casts along the riprap to individual fish and gave me all the rod I needed for casts reaching beyond 50 feet into the lake. Considering I had my back against a steep bank and had to reach up to give the back cast room, I think this was excellent distance.  I don’t usually fish for bluegill but the little 1 and 2 pounders were a lot of fun on this rod.  As soon as I can get a weekend free I’m off to the mountain streams for some REAL fishing! — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

….  I don’t usually fish for bluegill but the little 1 and 2 pounders were a lot of fun on this rod.  As soon as I can get a weekend free I’m off to the mountain streams for some REAL fishing!

A 2 pound bluegill is NOT little and if you think there’s something more REAL than big bluegill on a 3wt, I can only surmise that you’ve suffered some sort of anal cranial inversion. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

 I don’t usually fish for bluegill but the little 1 and 2 pounders were a lot of fun on this rod.  As soon as I can get a weekend free I’m off to the mountain streams for some REAL fishing! A 2 pound bluegill is NOT little and if you think there’s something more REAL than big bluegill on a 3wt, I can only surmise that you’ve suffered some sort of anal cranial inversion.

I was about to say the same thing, but Ken beat me to it while I was looking up the Maryland state record bluegill.   It was 3 lb. 7 oz., caught in August 98.

Response:

"I don’t usually fish for bluegill but the little 1 and 2 pounders were a lot of fun on this rod.  As soon as I can get a weekend free I’m off to the mountain streams for some REAL fishing!" Gee Wayne, sorry you had to be stuck with such teeny,tiny fish to test the new rod.  Mostly it’s been my experience that those little ones just get hooked and give up right away- almost jump up on the bank to throw in the towel against one of those husky 3wt’s. BTW- mind sending along your business address if it wouldn’t be too much trouble, I don’t really have to take that trip to the AuSable – I mean it’s not written in stone or anything   Jim McCreary

Response:

I second that emotion, there ain’t nuthin much more fun than hit’n on a bunch of pound and half pumpkin seeds and blue gill on a 3wt. I’ll be doing it again in the morning. I enjoy both but don’t have the opportunity to really fish but maybe twice a year so I must REALLY fish each weekend. All in fun Jim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I don’t usually fish for bluegill but the little 1 and 2 pounders were a lot of fun on this rod.  As soon as I can get a weekend free I’m off to the mountain streams for some REAL fishing! A 2 pound bluegill is NOT little and if you think there’s something more REAL than big bluegill on a 3wt, I can only surmise that you’ve suffered some sort of anal cranial inversion. I was about to say the same thing, but Ken beat me to it while I was looking up the Maryland state record bluegill.   It was 3 lb. 7 oz., caught in August 98.

Response:

1 to 2 pound Bluegill !!!  WHERE ?  I NEED TO KNOW NOW !!! Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I second that emotion, there ain’t nuthin much more fun than hit’n on a bunch of pound and half pumpkin seeds and blue gill on a 3wt. I’ll be doing it again in the morning. I enjoy both but don’t have the opportunity to really fish but maybe twice a year so I must REALLY fish each weekend. All in fun Jim  I don’t usually fish for bluegill but the little 1 and 2 pounders were a lot of fun on this rod.  As soon as I can get a weekend free I’m off to the mountain streams for some REAL fishing! A 2 pound bluegill is NOT little and if you think there’s something more REAL than big bluegill on a 3wt, I can only surmise that you’ve suffered some sort of anal cranial inversion. I was about to say the same thing, but Ken beat me to it while I was looking up the Maryland state record bluegill.   It was 3 lb. 7 oz., caught in August 98.

Response:

around 6 lbs. as I recall, caught last year. Jim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -1 to 2 pound Bluegill !!!  WHERE ?  I NEED TO KNOW NOW !!! Bill I second that emotion, there ain’t nuthin much more fun than hit’n on a bunch of pound and half pumpkin seeds and blue gill on a 3wt. I’ll be doing it again in the morning. I enjoy both but don’t have the opportunity to really fish but maybe twice a year so I must REALLY fish each weekend. All in fun Jim  I don’t usually fish for bluegill but the little 1 and 2 pounders were a lot of fun on this rod.  As soon as I can get a weekend free I’m off to the mountain streams for some REAL fishing! A 2 pound bluegill is NOT little and if you think there’s something more REAL than big bluegill on a 3wt, I can only surmise that you’ve suffered some sort of anal cranial inversion. I was about to say the same thing, but Ken beat me to it while I was looking up the Maryland state record bluegill.   It was 3 lb. 7 oz., caught in August 98.

Response:

Bill, Lake Anna near Mineral Virginia.  I work at the nuclear power station on Lake Anna.  Our shoreline has areas of large rip-rap which grows VERY large bluegill and attracts a nice population of 1 to 3 pound bass as well.  I didn’t read the carp on a fly thread but we have 20 to 30 pounders in abundance ( our European members are having woodies by now). Wayne To fish is Human….To Release Divine.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -1 to 2 pound Bluegill !!!  WHERE ?  I NEED TO KNOW NOW !!! Bill

Response:

Bluegill is around 6 lbs. as I recall, caught last year.

Could someone please tell me why the hell I am going to Ennis next summer for the western clave when I could be going to South Carolina in a search for a six pound bluegill? Big Dale

Response:

Could someone please tell me why the hell I am going to Ennis next summer for the western clave when I could be going to South Carolina in a search for a six pound bluegill?

Because the NAACP has issued a tourism boycott of South Carolina ? Works for me. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Well let’s see, I have Virginia and South Carolina now.  Think I could make a weekend trip from Arizona? Times are getting desperate.  I got stuck in a job doing 65 hours per week and no weekends.  I decided an education was the only way out.  I just finished a BS degree in Information Systems and got certified in VB 6.0. Now if I can just find employment with weekends off I can chase those big Bluegill again.  Haven’t had a chance to breath in the last two years and if I don’t catch a good fish soon I’m going to lose it!  Major withdrawal symptoms taking effect. Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bill, Lake Anna near Mineral Virginia.  I work at the nuclear power station on Lake Anna.  Our shoreline has areas of large rip-rap which grows VERY large bluegill and attracts a nice population of 1 to 3 pound bass as well.  I didn’t read the carp on a fly thread but we have 20 to 30 pounders in abundance ( our European members are having woodies by now). Wayne To fish is Human….To Release Divine. 1 to 2 pound Bluegill !!!  WHERE ?  I NEED TO KNOW NOW !!! Bill

Response:

Fish was caught using a fly rod, but he had a spinning reel on it dropping a jig into shore cover in a tailrace canal. It was an ugly damn thing but man was it big…. Jim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bluegill is around 6 lbs. as I recall, caught last year. Could someone please tell me why the hell I am going to Ennis next summer for the western clave when I could be going to South Carolina in a search for a six pound bluegill? Big Dale

Response:

Sheesh Big Dale, I can’t even conjur up an image of a 6# bluegill, it gives me the shakes to imagine that monster on my 3 wt.  Can you say "into the backing"? :-0 Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF RETIRED – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bluegill is around 6 lbs. as I recall, caught last year. Could someone please tell me why the hell I am going to Ennis next summer for the western clave when I could be going to South Carolina in a search for a six pound bluegill? Big Dale

Response:

Bill, it will come with time, I spent 20 yrs in the navy and had no time, I’m now 54 and have averaged 104 days per year on the water for the last four years. I don’t do weekends or windows anymore. Jim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Well let’s see, I have Virginia and South Carolina now.  Think I could make a weekend trip from Arizona? Times are getting desperate.  I got stuck in a job doing 65 hours per week and no weekends.  I decided an education was the only way out.  I just finished a BS degree in Information Systems and got certified in VB 6.0. Now if I can just find employment with weekends off I can chase those big Bluegill again.  Haven’t had a chance to breath in the last two years and if I don’t catch a good fish soon I’m going to lose it!  Major withdrawal symptoms taking effect. Bill Bill, Lake Anna near Mineral Virginia.  I work at the nuclear power station on Lake Anna.  Our shoreline has areas of large rip-rap which grows VERY large bluegill and attracts a nice population of 1 to 3 pound bass as well.  I didn’t read the carp on a fly thread but we have 20 to 30 pounders in abundance ( our European members are having woodies by now). Wayne To fish is Human….To Release Divine. 1 to 2 pound Bluegill !!!  WHERE ?  I NEED TO KNOW NOW !!! Bill

Response:

i agree i might give up a few days of steelhead fishing for 6 pound bluegills!!! krombear I wonder if fish get thirsty

Response:

OK Guys, Come on down!  Access to this section of Lake Anna shoreline is with Virginia Power employee escort only.  I’ll lead the motorcade down to the parking area and assign beats to the fishermen.  At the recreation facility adjacent to the bluegill fishing we have restrooms, picnic shelters, grills, vollyball courts, and alcohol consumption is allowed.  Preferred beverages are Macallans and The Famous Grouse.  You buy. Wayne To Fish is Human….To Release Divine. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "I don’t usually fish for bluegill but the little 1 and 2 pounders were a lot of fun on this rod.  As soon as I can get a weekend free I’m off to the mountain streams for some REAL fishing!" Gee Wayne, sorry you had to be stuck with such teeny,tiny fish to test the new rod.  Mostly it’s been my experience that those little ones just get hooked and give up right away- almost jump up on the bank to throw in the towel against one of those husky 3wt’s. BTW- mind sending along your business address if it wouldn’t be too much trouble, I don’t really have to take that trip to the AuSable – I mean it’s not written in stone or anything   Jim McCreary

Response:

OK Guys, Come on down!  Access to this section of Lake Anna shoreline is with Virginia Power employee escort only.  I’ll lead the motorcade down to the parking area and assign beats to the fishermen.  At the recreation facility adjacent to the bluegill fishing we have restrooms, picnic shelters, grills, vollyball courts, and alcohol consumption is allowed.  Preferred beverages are Macallans and The Famous Grouse.  You buy. Wayne To Fish is Human….To Release Divine.

An "ROFF ‘Gill Clave" in the making??  But will there be hats?? Little concerned ’bout those "glow in the dark" nuclear ‘gills though- is that what makes em so plentiful. Jim

Response:

… Little concerned ’bout those "glow in the dark" nuclear ‘gills though- is that what makes em so plentiful.

Don’t know anything about Lake Anna but here in central Illinois there’s a nuke plant on Clinton Lake and the warm water discharge does extend the growing season. Doesn’t make for more fish but bigger fish than you’d expect otherwise. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

You might even get to meet Strom himself, if you’re lucky enough to catch him between naps. jim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could someone please tell me why the hell I am going to Ennis next summer for the western clave when I could be going to South Carolina in a search for a six pound bluegill? Because the NAACP has issued a tourism boycott of South Carolina ? Yeah, but you’d get to hang out with people who voted for Strom Thurmond<g. — Charlie…

Response:

does anyone else think there may be a relationship between the "nuclear power plant" and the 3 lb bluegills???  wasn’t that a roger corman movie?? jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sheesh Big Dale, I can’t even conjur up an image of a 6# bluegill, it gives me the shakes to imagine that monster on my 3 wt.  Can you say "into the backing"? :-0 Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF RETIRED Bluegill is around 6 lbs. as I recall, caught last year. Could someone please tell me why the hell I am going to Ennis next summer for the western clave when I could be going to South Carolina in a search for a six pound bluegill? Big Dale

Response:

Wayne, I’d be interested taking you up on your offer and coming up there, perhaps for a one-day deal sometime this winter. There’s plenty good bluegill fishing within a few blocks of my house, but it would be fun anyway. There are several of us close enough to make it up there and back in a single day–I’ll bet that Tom Brown and my buddy Bill Crone would come along, and perhaps some of the other NC ROFFians. Perhaps one of the days between Christmas and New Years… Is the fishing still decent at that time of year? Steve Zimmerman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK Guys, Come on down!  Access to this section of Lake Anna shoreline is with Virginia Power employee escort only.  I’ll lead the motorcade down to the parking area and assign beats to the fishermen.  At the recreation facility adjacent to the bluegill fishing we have restrooms, picnic shelters, grills, vollyball courts, and alcohol consumption is allowed.  Preferred beverages are Macallans and The Famous Grouse.  You buy.

Response:

Steve, If you want to do this, let me know.  My only hesitation is that this guy is also an engineer and he survived several days fishing with Walt earlier this year and seemingly, escaped unscathed.  I’ve never managed more than one day with Walt, and was scared, even then.  Hell, I think Marie liked him, too.  We gotta be careful, here….. Tom — Tom Brown The Signal Group Wake Forest, NC HEATHEN, n. A benighted creature who has the folly to worship something that he can see and feel.                – Ambrose Bierce: The Devil’s Dictionary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wayne, I’d be interested taking you up on your offer and coming up there, perhaps for a one-day deal sometime this winter. There’s plenty good bluegill fishing within a few blocks of my house, but it would be fun anyway. There are several of us close enough to make it up there and back in a single day–I’ll bet that Tom Brown and my buddy Bill Crone would come along, and perhaps some of the other NC ROFFians. Perhaps one of the days between Christmas and New Years… Is the fishing still decent at that time of year? Steve Zimmerman OK Guys, Come on down!  Access to this section of Lake Anna shoreline is with Virginia Power employee escort only.  I’ll lead the motorcade down to the parking area and assign beats to the fishermen.  At the recreation facility adjacent to the bluegill fishing we have restrooms, picnic shelters, grills, vollyball courts, and alcohol consumption is allowed.  Preferred beverages are Macallans and The Famous Grouse.  You buy.

Response:

"nuclear power plant" and the 3 lb bluegills???  wasn’t that a roger corman movie??

Made me think of a Simpson’s show when Bart caught a 3 eyed fish while fishing below the neclear power plant. Do any of those 3lb. fish have three eyes? Big Dale

Response:

"nuclear power plant" and the 3 lb bluegills???  wasn’t that a roger corman movie?? Made me think of a Simpson’s show when Bart caught a 3 eyed fish while fishing below the neclear power plant. Do any of those 3lb. fish have three eyes? Big Dale

Of course not…….but the bigger ones do have two tails. jim

Response:

Question:

Anyone have any experience flyfishing in PR or Vieques? We’re headed there shortly and need any info you guys & ladies might have. Thanks, Bill Way

Response:

Im told that Vieques can be quite a blast. Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone have any experience flyfishing in PR or Vieques? We’re headed there shortly and need any info you guys & ladies might have. Thanks, Bill Way

Response:

I spent a couple of months down there in the US Navy and I had a blast with the baracuda, gar, croaker, and tarpon. All over the area. You will love it. make sure you have some braided leaders or wire of some sorts. ‘Cudas bite right through it. Also need som 10-20 pound leaders and tippet material. The best colors were blue/white and chartreuse/white. Others worked but not as well. I caught many other species of fish, but I couldn’t tell you what they were. Hope you enjoy the fishing. There are some flats to chose from as well as some good accessible deeper areas. Good fishing Gordo When in doubt, toss ‘em a fly. Who knows, may be your day. Gordo

Response:

Interested in fly fishing and fishing Puerto Rico? See www.fishinginpuertorico.com for more information. Mark V. <’< – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I spent a couple of months down there in the US Navy and I had a blast with the baracuda, gar, croaker, and tarpon. All over the area. You will love it. make sure you have some braided leaders or wire of some sorts. ‘Cudas bite right through it. Also need som 10-20 pound leaders and tippet material. The best colors were blue/white and chartreuse/white. Others worked but not as well. I caught many other species of fish, but I couldn’t tell you what they were. Hope you enjoy the fishing. There are some flats to chose from as well as some good accessible deeper areas. Good fishing Gordo When in doubt, toss ‘em a fly. Who knows, may be your day. Gordo

Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

For much of the past decade my family and I have vacationed in North- Central New Mexico (Santa Fe/Taos area). … Historically they’ve been wonderful, since few people fished them.  But that seems to have changed…

I’ll confess to being part of the problem. We were in Taos for a week last October and found it a wonderful vacation spot both for me and my flyfishing and Kristine and her shopping/photography. I was able to find solitude, in October, the further I got from the "Enchanted Circle", FWIW. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

For much of the past decade my family and I have vacationed in North- Central New Mexico (Santa Fe/Taos area).  It always seemed to offer something for everyone…culture and restaurants for my wife, fishing and hiking for me.  I returned last week after an absence of 3 years and couldn’t believe the increase in fishing pressure and resulting reduction in fishing quality. Exhibit 1 — an small, alpine tailwater (maybe 60 cfm)with a nice population of cuts.  Catch and release.  Fished it three years ago, in the prime water on a WEEKEND, and saw one other rod all day.  Last week, on a Tuesday, had to scramble to find a stretch to fish.  At least 10 other rods on a 1.5 mile stretch. Exhibit 2 — a tiny mountain stream, 2 hour drive from anywhere. Walked in and got no hits.  Started moving quickly, and eventually ran into a fisherman.  I’d been fishing in his wake.  Walked another half mile, same problem.  Eventually had to drive a mile downstream, and walk another mile to get onto virgin water, then had a reasonable time. Unlike streams in places like Montana (or even the San Juan), the streams in North-Central NM are generally so small that they can’t support very much pressure.  Historically they’ve been wonderful, since few people fished them.  But that seems to have changed… Michael — www.geocities.com/yosemite/falls/3363 Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Question:

Phew. Good story. How about more of this? Who out there among us has ever written a story for publication, only to have it rejected by some pip-squeek assistant editor? Why not publish yourself on the web? right here? This beats the hell out of C&R pissing. — /* Sandy Pittendrigh                  –oO0  * http://www.nervana.montana.edu/~sandy  */

Response:

Why not publish yourself on the web? right here?

What, and give away blood, sweat & tears FOR FREE ? My literary agent would have a coronary. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

‘There’s nothing like making a definitive stement on the net to provehow wrong you are’

Too true, too true!

Response:

Seemingly oblivious to the arcane machinations and unexplainable antics of a veritable host of erstwhile anglers, walkers, canoers, frustrated lovers, and usually inebriated potential suicides on the bridge above, the large and reputedly ancient trout lay just below the second brick foundation of the first bridge arch.  According to local folklore he weighed in excess of ten pounds, but he was apparently oblivious of his fame as well.   He rose occasionally and slurped a particularly inviting morsel from the calm lane at the side of the fast water caused by the water rushing through the narrows of the arch.

(remarkable story snipped) Allright, then, Mike, would it be true? Which part did you play? Mark Faulkner

Response:

(remarkable story snipped) Allright, then, Mike, would it be true? Which part did you play? Mark Faulkner

Perfectly true, I know, I was that trout ! TL MC

Response:

Damn bait fisherman!  We need more bartenders like that around all trout streams! Warren

Response:

Seemingly oblivious to the arcane machinations and unexplainable antics of a veritable host of erstwhile anglers, walkers, canoers, frustrated lovers, and usually inebriated potential suicides on the bridge above, the large and reputedly ancient trout lay just below the second brick foundation of the first bridge arch.  According to local folklore he weighed in excess of ten pounds, but he was apparently oblivious of his fame as well.   He rose occasionally and slurped a particularly inviting morsel from the calm lane at the side of the fast water caused by the water rushing through the narrows of the arch. If some of the local worthies were to be believed he had been doing this every summer for the last ten years. Experts and tyros, men of letters, small boys with worms,  although the water was fly only, and even lowly poachers,  had all attempted the difficult cast at one time or another over the years, some even successfully, the jaw of the fish was laced with white scars easily visible in the clear water, testimony to the "barbs and arrows of outrageous fortune" to which he had been subjected and which he now bore with seeming nonchalance, perhaps even truculent pride. A hard won but most excellent education.  In the "Stag

Question:

There’s finally a product that does away with bouncing bottles and poorly distributed weight- it’s called the Fuel Belt.  This posting serves as an information bulletin to help you get the most out of your training.  Staying hydrated is half the battle and one that can finally be managed comfortably. If you’re interested in learning more about these belts, e-mail me or visit: www.fuelbelt.com   for more information.  Get more out of your hardwork and have fun doing it. Best, -Vinu — Vinu Malik President, Fuel Belt p:  617.868.9506 (direct) p:  888.666.BELT (2358) f:  617.661.7808 w:  www.fuelbelt.com Fuel Belt:  Proven at Ironman races around the world…

Response:

Dan, Are you talking about saltwater speckled trout or garfish? Inquiring minds wanna know. I used to love fishing for the "specs" in and around Sarasota. go gatahs…. Walt I never miss a home game at gatorsville, but this time of year the only gators I think about are Gator Trout.Have C.& R.  11 in the past week 22 inches or longer. Will start to think about choump choump  Gators in Sept.    Capt Dan   We play St. Bobby at home this year. Choump—–Choump **** Posted from RemarQ – http://www.remarq.com – Discussions Start Here ™ ****

–          The Blue Ridge Book Gallery      P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604       http://www.mercury.net/~wgwinter

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I never miss a home game at gatorsville, but this time of year the only gators I think about are Gator Trout.Have C.& R.  11 in the past week 22 inches or longer. Will start to think about choump choump  Gators in Sept.    Capt Dan   We play St. Bobby at home this year. Choump—–Choump **** Posted from RemarQ – http://www.remarq.com – Discussions Start Here ™ ****

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Matt, I like the camelback myself for long hot days. But where does this slimy little geek Malik get the crazy idea to SPAM a fly fishing newsgroup with this stuff. Where or where would he get the idea that he could SPAM in ROFF???? I take my camelback fishing, so it is "technically" an on-topic post.     – Ken    umm, ken, i plan on taking my gerkhe bastard fishing.  does this mean you are gonna get off george’s ass, at last?

Actually, Wayno, you missed the point, it was sarcasm.  Both are SPAM.  The point was that people complained about the camelback dude, but want to give George free rein.  I just hold all the spammers in equal disdain. Later,      - Ken — "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the  initiative in creating the Internet."  - Al Gore

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Waldo,   Don’t know how much attention you pay tohim, but Beano Cook is already predicting the 2000 Sugar Bowl (which will be the BCS championship game): The chomp chomp fun and gun Gators of the University of Spurrier                                        vs.         The Penn State JoePa is God Nittany Lions Need I point out where I went to college?  College football is life, and life is good.

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I like the hard hat with the built in beer can holders and long straw that hangs by your mouth. Bet Walt has one to. Big Al

shoot Al, how’d you know that. betcha didn’t know it’s a big ole UF gatah and it holds a sixpak. cool thing is, it has a gatah jaw brim with a length of  mono. when you tug on the mono the jaws go up and down like a real gatah… pretty neat huh. man, back in g’ville in the early eighties i couldn’t keep the gatorettes off me when i wore that cap. hell, mebbe it was the beer, who knows. waldo gatah

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Matt, I like the camelback myself for long hot days. But where does this slimy little geek Malik get the crazy idea to SPAM a fly fishing newsgroup with this stuff.

Where or where would he get the idea that he could SPAM in ROFF???? I take my camelback fishing, so it is "technically" an on-topic post.      - Ken — "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the  initiative in creating the Internet."  - Al Gore

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Matt, I like the camelback myself for long hot days. But where does this slimy little geek Malik get the crazy idea to SPAM a fly fishing newsgroup with this stuff. Where or where would he get the idea that he could SPAM in ROFF???? I take my camelback fishing, so it is "technically" an on-topic post.     – Ken

        umm, ken, i plan on taking my gerkhe bastard fishing.  does this mean you are gonna get off george’s ass, at last? wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet."  - Al Gore

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Matt, I like the camelback myself for long hot days. But where does this slimy little geek Malik get the crazy idea to SPAM a fly fishing newsgroup with this stuff.  My first impression is this guy couldn’t make the sale to the Lilian Vernon Catalogue! Wayne To fish is human…to release divine.     don’t spend alot of money on crap, buy a camelbak, I’m in the army and we use them everywhere, it’s like a water backpack…never sloshes..nobody uses canteens in the army now…you can find them at sporting goods stores

I like the hard hat with the built in beer can holders and long straw that hangs by your mouth. Bet Walt has one to. Big Al

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     don’t spend alot of money on crap, buy a camelbak, I’m in the army and we use them everywhere, it’s like a water backpack…never sloshes..nobody uses canteens in the army now…you can find them at sporting goods stores

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Matt, I like the camelback myself for long hot days. But where does this slimy little geek Malik get the crazy idea to SPAM a fly fishing newsgroup with this stuff.  My first impression is this guy couldn’t make the sale to the Lilian Vernon Catalogue! Wayne To fish is human…to release divine. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     don’t spend alot of money on crap, buy a camelbak, I’m in the army and we use them everywhere, it’s like a water backpack…never sloshes..nobody uses canteens in the army now…you can find them at sporting goods stores

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Question:

I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? No. You would not view the practice of C&R on starving fish a mean act ?   Really ?

What would anyone do with a ’starving’ fish –  bury it in their garden to fertilize the tomatoes? Feed it to the cat? Cat might not eat it! Ralph H

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I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? No. You would not view the practice of C&R on starving fish a mean act ?   Really ? You would throw a starving dog a rubber bone ? You are a mean man Mr. Tatosian, IMO.

Tim, that was clearly a sarcastic remark in as short a form as I could provide, in response to this totally contrived troll of yours (which didn’t merit the response you would like to have received)… Yours is a tiresome routine – starting one thread after another all aimed at repeating your philosphy ad nauseum – and self-sanctified as being preferable to more civilized/less contentious topics of discussion… To what ends, I ask? Frankly I’m surprised you have any time left to actually fish – if you actually *do* fish… /dave

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For all that we praise the "intelligence" of trout (mostly because sometimes we can’t catch them) they are really creatures of habit. Research studies (not fairy tales or anecdotes) have shown that trout may take several days to switch to a larger (hence more energy efficient), equally abundant, prey after several days of feeding on smaller prey.         Also, sorry to insult anyone, there has been some serious c**p thrown out in this thread. Atlantic salmon ascend long rivers, take no food and undergo physiological changes (requiring energy) related to spawning, spawn, spend an entire winter under the ice, and then head back to sea. In the process they lose from 1/3 to 1/2 their body weight. On the way out they feed, take flies well, often fight as hard as a bright fish, and recover quickly (studies show well over 90% survival, probably because of the cold oxygen-rich water). Based on this I seriously doubt that trout are harmed by being caught providing they are landed quickly and THE WATER TEMPERATURES ARE LOW. Paul Marriner

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For all that we praise the "intelligence" of trout (mostly because sometimes we can’t catch them) they are really creatures of habit. Research studies (not fairy tales or anecdotes) have shown that trout may take several days to switch to a larger (hence more energy efficient), equally abundant, prey after several days of feeding on smaller prey.         Also, sorry to insult anyone, there has been some serious c**p thrown out in this thread. Atlantic salmon ascend long rivers, take no food and undergo physiological changes (requiring energy) related to spawning, spawn, spend an entire winter under the ice, and then head back to sea. In the process they lose from 1/3 to 1/2 their body weight. On the way out they feed, take flies well, often fight as hard as a bright fish, and recover quickly (studies show well over 90% survival, probably because of the cold oxygen-rich water). Based on this I seriously doubt that trout are harmed by being caught providing they are landed quickly and THE WATER TEMPERATURES ARE LOW.

Paul, Would the same hold true in a non-anadromous population with a sparser food base ?  Please accept that the high altitude freestone creeks are not the big food suppliers as an oceanic watershed, almost barren in some cases.   I do so wish that you would not call the postings of myself and our friends ‘c**p’.   Also, you have compared this to one of the most strenuous acts of reproduction in nature.  A required one and one of major literary & philosophical meaning.  The desparate act of a fish NOT making it over the falls in some cases.  The desparate act of an old cock on its last trip upstream. The desparateness of losing 1/2 of their body weight in this struggle. Not really on the same plane as hooking and playing it for fun, is it ? Respectfully, TimW

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Fish have to dash away from predators all the time; they have energy stores that help them deal with that. Trout, steelhead and salmon go through frequent and often lengthy periods when they feed little or not at all. You’d have us believe that a "sprint around the block" followed by a fast lasting a few hours will lead to death by starvation.

But… When you’re fishing a hatch, you play the fish buring one of those *brief* periods when food is abundant.  If the sprint around the block is always at diinertime, and the food is gone by the time you return, it can add up. I’m not saying, "don’t fish," I’m just saying that there are impacts involved in c&r, just like any style of fishing.   (Besides, during a heavy hatch, it can be a lot of fun to lean the rod against a tree and watch the fish work, without trying to catch them. Can improve your fishing, too.) CQ

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A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it?  I mean, you’re more likely to find a selective fish in some rich, artificial tailwater than you are in a high-county lake or stream, aren’t you?  

Not when a hatch is on.  High country fish can be very selective then. It makes sense for a trout to become selective when mayflies are hatching because it’s a temporary abundance.   The nymphs, baitfish, et al, will still be there after the hatch is over. CQ

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For all that we praise the "intelligence" of trout (mostly because sometimes we can’t catch them) they are really creatures of habit. Research studies (not fairy tales or anecdotes) have shown that trout may take several days to switch to a larger (hence more energy efficient), equally abundant, prey after several days of feeding on smaller prey.         Also, sorry to insult anyone, there has been some serious c**p thrown out in this thread. Atlantic salmon ascend long rivers, take no food and undergo physiological changes (requiring energy) related to spawning, spawn, spend an entire winter under the ice, and then head back to sea. In the process they lose from 1/3 to 1/2 their body weight. On the way out they feed, take flies well, often fight as hard as a bright fish, and recover quickly (studies show well over 90% survival, probably because of the cold oxygen-rich water). Based on this I seriously doubt that trout are harmed by being caught providing they are landed quickly and THE WATER TEMPERATURES ARE LOW. Paul, Would the same hold true in a non-anadromous population with a sparser food base ?  Please accept that the high altitude freestone creeks are not the big food suppliers as an oceanic watershed, almost barren in some cases.   I do so wish that you would not call the postings of myself and our friends ‘c**p’.   Also, you have compared this to one of the most strenuous acts of reproduction in nature.  A required one and one of major literary & philosophical meaning.  The desparate act of a fish NOT making it over the falls in some cases.  The desparate act of an old cock on its last trip upstream. The desparateness of losing 1/2 of their body weight in this struggle. Not really on the same plane as hooking and playing it for fun, is it ? Respectfully, TimW

Sorry Tim I think this little bit of work from your imagination is a clunker. But then nobody bats 100. I posted my reponses previously so won’t repeat them. hope you don’t mind me asking but did you base this on any study or work that shows fish in those alpine streams you fish are so stressed by lack of food? BTW a fish with a big head and small body isn’t starving it’s just lean like a marathon runner or a cheetah. Starving fish have shrunken concave bellies. You wouldn’t want to eat one either. Ralph H

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For all that we praise the "intelligence" of trout (mostly because sometimes we can’t catch them) they are really creatures of habit. Research studies (not fairy tales or anecdotes) have shown that trout may take several days to switch to a larger (hence more energy efficient), equally abundant, prey after several days of feeding on smaller prey.         Also, sorry to insult anyone, there has been some serious c**p thrown out in this thread. Atlantic salmon ascend long rivers, take no food and undergo physiological changes (requiring energy) related to spawning, spawn, spend an entire winter under the ice, and then head back to sea. In the process they lose from 1/3 to 1/2 their body weight. On the way out they feed, take flies well, often fight as hard as a bright fish, and recover quickly (studies show well over 90% survival, probably because of the cold oxygen-rich water). Based on this I seriously doubt that trout are harmed by being caught providing they are landed quickly and THE WATER TEMPERATURES ARE LOW. Paul, Would the same hold true in a non-anadromous population with a sparser food base ?  Please accept that the high altitude freestone creeks are not the big food suppliers as an oceanic watershed, almost barren in some cases.   I do so wish that you would not call the postings of myself and our friends ‘c**p’.   Also, you have compared this to one of the most strenuous acts of reproduction in nature.  A required one and one of major literary & philosophical meaning.  The desparate act of a fish NOT making it over the falls in some cases.  The desparate act of an old cock on its last trip upstream. The desparateness of losing 1/2 of their body weight in this struggle. Not really on the same plane as hooking and playing it for fun, is it ? Respectfully, TimW

Sorry time but IMO this work from your imagination is a clunker. I’ve posted my responses elsewhere and won’t repeat them. However let me ask did you base this post on any kind of study on the alpine streams in your area that indicated the fish were so stressed by lack of food? BTW a fish with a big head and small body isn’t starving; it’s just lean like a marathon runner or a cheetah. Starving fish have concave shrunken bellies. You wouldn’t want to eat one either. Ralph H

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: That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of : being a fish.   : A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it?   I have to agree here; the arguments being made of the average fish fight being so life-threatening is kindof ridiculous. This "1/2 energy/wieght/whatever lost" being mispresented. As (I think) another poster said, think of it as a sprint. Even if you are out of shape, a sprint won’t kill you — in fact, 10 minutes later you won’t even feel the effects. Same for the trout. You use up your short-term energy — sugar in the cells — but this doesn’t effect your fat reserves or anything to any large degree. Now, a prolonged fight, and environmental stresses (such as warm water) are worse, but I don’t think from an energy loss standpoint its much worse — the problems come from the fish needing more time to recuperate and can’t orient itself during this time (unlike us, who would just lay down on the ground and *breathe*; a fish can’t do that). We’ve all had hard releases — I held a fish for 20 minutes one time (actually stopped him from swimming away a couple of times), and eventually he looked just fine, swam away and took a position behind a rock — was still there later in the day. I don’t think the energy loss hurt him one bit. I’ll second that a big-head/little-bodied fish mean there’s too many fish for the food base, and you should keep it anyways. JonCook.

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A guy who works in a fly shop just told me this evening about a guy who said he played a steelhead for 3 and a half hours.  I asked him how big it was and he told me the guy claimed 8 pounds.  Slightly less than a

Good Grief!  What kind of rod could he have been using.  I have landed steelhead this size on a 4 wt. rod in less than 20 minutes.  Three and a half hours is torture! -Burton

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While you guys are debating C&R vs.C&K and skinny fish, and how much time landing a fish is too much time…THEY ARE BUILDING A GOLD MINE ON THE BLACFOOT RIVER IN MONTANA….and it has the potential to render all your arguments moot… I have taken the liberty of changing the thread title for you, if you want a serious discussion of the mine possibility and its detriment. This is a different thread… TimW

 Nah…I just wanted to remind you that there are bigger fish to fry.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of : being a fish. : A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it? I have to agree here; the arguments being made of the average fish fight being so life-threatening is kindof ridiculous. This "1/2 energy/wieght/whatever lost" being mispresented. As (I think) another poster said, think of it as a sprint. Even if you are out of shape, a sprint won’t kill you — in fact, 10 minutes later you won’t even feel the effects. Same for the trout. You use up your short-term energy — sugar in the cells — but this doesn’t effect your fat reserves or anything to any large degree. Now, a prolonged fight, and environmental stresses (such as warm water) are worse, but I don’t think from an energy loss standpoint its much worse — the problems come from the fish needing more time to recuperate and can’t orient itself during this time (unlike us, who would just lay down on the ground and *breathe*; a fish can’t do that). We’ve all had hard releases — I held a fish for 20 minutes one time (actually stopped him from swimming away a couple of times), and eventually he looked just fine, swam away and took a position behind a rock — was still there later in the day. I don’t think the energy loss hurt him one bit. I’ll second that a big-head/little-bodied fish mean there’s too many fish for the food base, and you should keep it anyways.

Ok then.  What I am hearing… Our [flyfishermen's] definition of the ethics of catch and release… "We may cause indiscriminate harm to a wild animal, so long as the animal does not normally  die as a result, in our search for happiness.  Our metric will only include mortality and  will not include incidental suffering or non-fatal injury" Or, something like that… I laugh at our free usage of the term ‘respect’ for a wild animal.  It is really, really laughable (if it weren’t so sad).   Wham !!! Set the Hook !!!! Wham, Lay the rod into it !! she’s runnin’ for the rapids…then this thoughtful ‘respectful’ release…sometimes with an accompanying little kiss on the lips.  Respect ?  I don’t think so.  Cause for self-congratulation, perhaps. TimW

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While you guys are debating C&R vs.C&K and skinny fish, and how much time landing a fish is too much time…THEY ARE BUILDING A GOLD MINE ON THE BLACFOOT RIVER IN MONTANA….and it has the potential to render all your arguments moot…

Finally the real meat of the issues. Isn’t it time we humans get a little more ,NO! a lot more involve with the issues of rectifying and push for the preservation of our current watersheds. When their all gone who will be there to make new ones? The issues may vary from state to state, but they are the sum of all the parts. Trout are a good indicator for water quality and the quality of life to which we an ultimately attached. Seems to me that a new thread needs to be started here. Our fingers are dancing on the very tools that could start a very positive movement. What do you say guys? How about it, Tim, George, and Al? On another sad note, my ISP really sucks and I only receive less than half of the news posting and feel like a mushroom on lost thread portions. If anybody felt like CC me on your postings I would sure appreciate it. — Doug Knight                           metalfab<atefaxinc.com Junk e-mail, solicitation, sales, products and services gladly accepted at $50.00 per mailing and billed directly to your ISP.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? No. You would not view the practice of C&R on starving fish a mean act ? Really ? You would throw a starving dog a rubber bone ? You are a mean man Mr. Tatosian, IMO. Tim, that was clearly a sarcastic remark in as short a form as I could provide, in response to this totally contrived troll of yours (which didn’t merit the response you would like to have received)… Yours is a tiresome routine – starting one thread after another all aimed at repeating your philosphy ad nauseum – and self-sanctified as being preferable to more civilized/less contentious topics of discussion… To what ends, I ask?

I’ll be happy when the popularity of the sport subsides by say, 80%.  I’ll be patting myself on the back all the way down to the deep run behind Pat’s rock, which will be devoid of people and clogged with fish. TimW

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While you guys are debating C&R vs.C&K and skinny fish, and how much time landing a fish is too much time…THEY ARE BUILDING A GOLD MINE ON THE BLACFOOT RIVER IN MONTANA….and it has the potential to render all your arguments moot… I have taken the liberty of changing the thread title for you, if you want a serious discussion of the mine possibility and its detriment. This is a different thread… TimW

OK Tim, You were reading my mind. What are we playing with here, threads, fish, or environmental action? Isn’t it time we all get involved. Where do I sign up? It’s time to give something back. Please make note to CC, my ISP really sucks. — Doug Knight                           metalfab<atefaxinc.com Junk e-mail, solicitation, sales, products and services gladly accepted at $50.00 per mailing and billed directly to your ISP.

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Tim pardon me but this is vapour ware to the nth degree. You’re expounding proifically on a hypothetical situation about which nothing is known. Fish have to dash away from predators all the time; they have energy stores that help them deal with that. Trout, steelhead and salmon go through frequent and often lengthy periods when they feed little or not at all. You’d have us believe that a "sprint around the block" followed by a fast lasting a few hours will lead to death by starvation. If you’re going to fabricate something please at least make it credible and believable. from Your Biggest fan Ralph H – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The pinnacle of our sport is catching a wild trout feeding selectively on dries. That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of being a fish.  It is important that the energy expended to consume an insect must not exceed the energy gained by this insects consumption. It is tough row to hoe for a fish eating this minutae.  What percentage of fish even make it to this stage ? Along comes, O.M.I. Gudd the world famous dry fly man with his 2 wt and and exact imitation.  Bingo.  Fish On.  The fight lasts 10 minutes, and the fish is going…"damned, now I gotta eat an additional 1000 midges just to get back to my fighting weight !"…well we don’t really know WHAT Mr. Brown thinks, but it would be true that he is now in an energy deficit situation…this could kill him…have you ever caught a starving fish ? Big head, tiny emaciated snake like body ? Now you tell me…how many days will it take for that fish to get to where it was before you hooked, played and released it ?  Considering that it was possibly very nearly starving when you laid that Adams out. Maybe in the unnatural tailwaters where food is abundant this is less of a problem then a freestone creek at 12,000 ft., but I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? TimW

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The pinnacle of our sport is catching a wild trout feeding selectively on dries. That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of being a fish.  

A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it?  I mean, you’re more likely to find a selective fish in some rich, artificial tailwater than you are in a high-county lake or stream, aren’t you?   Along comes, O.M.I. Gudd the world famous dry fly man with his 2 wt and and exact imitation.  Bingo.  Fish On.  The fight lasts 10 minutes, and the fish is going…"damned, now I gotta eat an additional 1000 midges just to get back to my fighting weight !"…well we don’t really know WHAT Mr. Brown thinks, but it would be true that he is now in an energy deficit situation…this could kill him…have you ever caught a starving fish ? Big head, tiny emaciated snake like body ?

(I remember reading that a trout uses something like half of its stored energy in 15 seconds when it’s at full throttle.) Now you tell me…how many days will it take for that fish to get to where it was before you hooked, played and released it ?  Considering that it was possibly very nearly starving when you laid that Adams out. Maybe in the unnatural tailwaters where food is abundant this is less of a problem then a freestone creek at 12,000 ft., but I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ?

It seems like the folks fishing the rich tailwaters are more likely to be using too light of a rod for the fish that live there, so the benefit of plentiful food could be offset by the fish being played way longer than it should have been.  It may die anyway. The starving fish in the sterile alpine creek can’t be underpowered, but there is hardly any food for it to eat once it’s released. What?   If it was an overcrowded stream, you’re right.  If there are so many fish in the creek that the one you just caught is starving, kill and eat it.   That population sounds like it needs to be thinned, in my no-expert opinion.  A lot of the higher streams I’ve fished have what seem to be normal numbers of fish – they are healthy, active, and not swarming all over each other.  I’d imagine that at least some of them have native fish, and they *are* all wild fish.  There seems to be plenty of food. The only fish I’ll take out of a small, highish creek around here are brook trout or the rare brown; no cutts or rainbows.  I don’t feel bad about that, because these fish aren’t monsters and they are generally not starving.  The fight is quick and one-sided, and they are undoubtedly more stunned than exhausted when it’s over.  Of any trout, these are the ones I like to lay eyes on the most.  C&K seems like a bad idea to have catch on when it comes to these streams.   If you fish a heavier rod while practicing C&R, you release a healthier fish but probably shouldn’t call it ’sport.’  If you fish a really light, sporting rod; play the trout for ten minutes; kill, keep, and eat it, you have a fish that tastes bad. I don’t call what I do with those little cutts and redsides ’sport,’ and the brook trout I keep are delicious. The part of C&R that bugs me is hearing of 15# steelhead caught on four-weight rigs, people fishing for huge trout with two-weights, etc.   Small, alpine trout are probably bothered by C&R the least, and they are the ones that need it the most.  In my opinion. Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – TimW

Response:

I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ?

No.

Response:

The hypothesis goes (it isn’t even ‘theory’) that the fish becomes selective to cope with abundance. It makes it more efficient to focus om midges in Tim’s example so it doesn’t get distracted by say a sculpin on the bottom. I don’t get it.  Why would it be better for a trout to concentrate on midges and ignore a juicy sculpin, as long as it was big enough to eat one?

because the midges are abundant thr fish gains more calories than it expends by feeding exclusively on midges and ignoring the sculpin. It’s a hypothesis used to explain selectivity Also, why would the fish have to concentrate if there was a lot of food in the water?  Isn’t that where the phrase ‘easy pickins’ comes from?  You don’t mean that trout are easily confused, do you?!?

It’s not my idea. No I don’t mean they are confused. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (I remember reading that a trout uses something like half of its stored energy in 15 seconds when it’s at full throttle.) what exactly is it’s stored energy? The energy you store in your body is fat. Do you mean to say a trout burns up half it’s stored fat  swimming at full throttle for 15 seconds? Sounds proposterous. It is proposterous if you watch salmon moving up stream or jumping a falls Consider many stocks migrate hundreds of miles without feeding for months I think this whole line of reasoning falls on it’s keester. But a tip of the hat to Tim for trying. You’re right, that didn’t make any sense.  It’s the stored glycogen in the muscle that they use up so fast.  The book I just checked that in claims that the white muscle used for burst speed may take up to 18 hours to get rid of the lactic acid that results from the gas-guzzling, while the muscles used for regular, sustained swimming do it in an hour or less.   So you probably can’t compare swimming vs. fighting fish and then say that there isn’t any truth to what Tim Walker was saying. Also, salmon are making a one-way trip.  They don’t have to budget their energy, really.  I wouln’t be supprised at all to hear that salmon use more energy trying to get over a single tough falls than a typical trout does in a month of dodging predators, but the salmon probably dies sooner for doing it.

Salmon don’t always make a one way trip. Atlantics and steelhead usually return to the sea. Also salmon don’t stare to death they are genetically programed to die after spawning. Some stocks that are as sea fat as other go only a few yrds above tide water. Pacific salmon die of multiple organ failure that can’t simply be explain by starvation. Also genetically they can make the switch from salt to fresh water only once. The die off could be an adaption to transfer rich ocean nutrients to their native streams and enhance their offsprings chances for survival. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – if it were nearly starving and being caught put it at death’s door the whole stock in the stream simply wouldn’t last long. The first good drought or flood or an unusually hard winter would wipe them out. That’s true.  It’s strange that some of the more obviously-overcrowded lakes that I’ve seen are also shallow.  If any lake was going to winter-kill, it seems like they’d be the ones. Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or. Ralph H

Ralph H – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? No.

You would not view the practice of C&R on starving fish a mean act ?  Really ? You would throw a starving dog a rubber bone ? You are a mean man Mr. Tatosian, IMO. TimW

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of : being a fish. : A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it? I have to agree here; the arguments being made of the average fish fight being so life-threatening is kindof ridiculous. This "1/2 energy/wieght/whatever lost" being mispresented. As (I think) another poster said, think of it as a sprint. Even if you are out of shape, a sprint won’t kill you — in fact, 10 minutes later you won’t even feel the effects. Same for the trout. You use up your short-term energy — sugar in the cells — but this doesn’t effect your fat reserves or anything to any large degree. Now, a prolonged fight, and environmental stresses (such as warm water) are worse, but I don’t think from an energy loss standpoint its much worse — the problems come from the fish needing more time to recuperate and can’t orient itself during this time (unlike us, who would just lay down on the ground and *breathe*; a fish can’t do that). We’ve all had hard releases — I held a fish for 20 minutes one time (actually stopped him from swimming away a couple of times), and eventually he looked just fine, swam away and took a position behind a rock — was still there later in the day. I don’t think the energy loss hurt him one bit. I’ll second that a big-head/little-bodied fish mean there’s too many fish for the food base, and you should keep it anyways. JonCook.

While you guys are debating C&R vs.C&K and skinny fish, and how much time landing a fish is too much time…THEY ARE BUILDING A GOLD MINE ON THE BLACFOOT RIVER IN MONTANA….and it has the potential to render all your arguments moot…

Response:

The hypothesis goes (it isn’t even ‘theory’) that the fish becomes selective to cope with abundance. It makes it more efficient to focus om midges in Tim’s example so it doesn’t get distracted by say a sculpin on the bottom.

I don’t get it.  Why would it be better for a trout to concentrate on midges and ignore a juicy sculpin, as long as it was big enough to eat one?  Also, why would the fish have to concentrate if there was a lot of food in the water?  Isn’t that where the phrase ‘easy pickins’ comes from?  You don’t mean that trout are easily confused, do you?!? (I remember reading that a trout uses something like half of its stored energy in 15 seconds when it’s at full throttle.) what exactly is it’s stored energy? The energy you store in your body is fat. Do you mean to say a trout burns up half it’s stored fat  swimming at full throttle for 15 seconds? Sounds proposterous. It is proposterous if you watch salmon moving up stream or jumping a falls Consider many stocks migrate hundreds of miles without feeding for months I think this whole line of reasoning falls on it’s keester. But a tip of the hat to Tim for trying.

You’re right, that didn’t make any sense.  It’s the stored glycogen in the muscle that they use up so fast.  The book I just checked that in claims that the white muscle used for burst speed may take up to 18 hours to get rid of the lactic acid that results from the gas-guzzling, while the muscles used for regular, sustained swimming do it in an hour or less.   So you probably can’t compare swimming vs. fighting fish and then say that there isn’t any truth to what Tim Walker was saying. Also, salmon are making a one-way trip.  They don’t have to budget their energy, really.  I wouln’t be supprised at all to hear that salmon use more energy trying to get over a single tough falls than a typical trout does in a month of dodging predators, but the salmon probably dies sooner for doing it. if it were nearly starving and being caught put it at death’s door the whole stock in the stream simply wouldn’t last long. The first good drought or flood or an unusually hard winter would wipe them out.

That’s true.  It’s strange that some of the more obviously-overcrowded lakes that I’ve seen are also shallow.  If any lake was going to winter-kill, it seems like they’d be the ones. Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ralph H

Response:

Now you tell me…how many days will it take for that fish to get to where it was before you hooked, played and released it ?  

A guy who works in a fly shop just told me this evening about a guy who said he played a steelhead for 3 and a half hours.  I asked him how big it was and he told me the guy claimed 8 pounds.  Slightly less than a half hour a pound… Phil

Response:

A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it?  

The hypothesis goes (it isn’t even ‘theory’) that the fish becomes selective to cope with abundance. It makes it more efficient to focus om midges in Tim’s example so it doesn’t get distracted by say a sculpin on the bottom. You’re right a starving fish is unlikley to be selective. (I remember reading that a trout uses something like half of its stored energy in 15 seconds when it’s at full throttle.)

what exactly is it’s stored energy? The energy you store in your body is fat. Do you mean to say a trout burns up half it’s stored fat  swimming at full throttle for 15 seconds? Sounds proposterous. It is proposterous if you watch salmon moving up stream or jumping a falls Consider many stocks migrate hundreds of miles without feeding for months I think this whole line of reasoning falls on it’s keester. But a tip of the hat to Tim for trying. very nearly starving when you laid that Adams out.

if it were nearly starving and being caught put it at death’s door the whole stock in the stream simply wouldn’t last long. The first good drought or flood or an unusually hard winter would wipe them out. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -It seems like the folks fishing the rich tailwaters are more likely to be using too light of a rod for the fish that live there, so the benefit of plentiful food could be offset by the fish being played way longer than it should have been.  It may die anyway. The starving fish in the sterile alpine creek can’t be underpowered, but there is hardly any food for it to eat once it’s released. What?   [snip] The part of C&R that bugs me is hearing of 15# steelhead caught on four-weight rigs, people fishing for huge trout with two-weights, etc.

This bugs me too and I think many have pushed the light tackle envelope too far, way too far. Small, alpine trout are probably bothered by C&R the least, and they are the ones that need it the most.  In my opinion. Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or.

Ralph H

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The pinnacle of our sport is catching a wild trout feeding selectively on dries. That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of being a fish.  It is important that the energy expended to consume an insect must not exceed the energy gained by this insects consumption. It is tough row to hoe for a fish eating this minutae.  What percentage of fish even make it to this stage ? Along comes, O.M.I. Gudd the world famous dry fly man with his 2 wt and and exact imitation.  Bingo.  Fish On.  The fight lasts 10 minutes, and the fish is going…"damned, now I gotta eat an additional 1000 midges just to get back to my fighting weight !"…well we don’t really know WHAT Mr. Brown thinks, but it would be true that he is now in an energy deficit situation…this could kill him…have you ever caught a starving fish ? Big head, tiny emaciated snake like body ? Now you tell me…how many days will it take for that fish to get to where it was before you hooked, played and released it ?  Considering that it was possibly very nearly starving when you laid that Adams out. Maybe in the unnatural tailwaters where food is abundant this is less of a problem then a freestone creek at 12,000 ft., but I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? TimW

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Question:

After much debate, I finally went out and  purchased a new rod.  A Scott 5wt STS.  Why am I telling you all this?  Mostly because I need advice on which reel will be the best match for this rod.  Under $200.00.  The dealer I purchased the rod from has recomended a make I’ve never seem before T Tom (T Top?).  What do the sages (no pun inteneded) of

rec.outdoors.fishing.fly have to suggest? Thank you in advance! Ross

Ross, The dealer probably said "Teton". John Johnson Lilburn,GA

Response:

You probably mean Teton!  I have seen that one reccomended here before.   A small Lamson or STH would also be good. -Burton On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Ross Laurie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After much debate, I finally went out and  purchased a new rod.  A Scott  5wt STS.  Why am I telling you all this?  Mostly because I need advice on which reel will be the best match for this rod.  Under $200.00.  The dealer I purchased the rod from has recomended a make I’ve never seem before T Tom (T Top?).  What do the sages (no pun inteneded) of rec.outdoors.fishing.fly have to suggest? Thank you in advance! Ross

Response:

After much debate, I finally went out and  purchased a new rod.  A Scott 5wt STS.  Why am I telling you all this?  Mostly because I need advice on which reel will be the best match for this rod.  Under $200.00.  The dealer I purchased the rod from has recomended a make I’ve never seem before T Tom (T Top?).  What do the sages (no pun inteneded) of rec.outdoors.fishing.fly have to suggest? Thank you in advance! Ross

Hey Ross, This is just my 2 cents, but unless you are fishing for Salmon, Steelhead or any of the big saltwater species known for long runs, a reel is just a device to hold your line. Don’t waste your $$$ on an expensive reel to fish for trout. YMMV, Tom

Response:

After much debate, I finally went out and  purchased a new rod.  A Scott 5wt STS.  Why am I telling you all this?  Mostly because I need advice on which reel will be the best match for this rod.  Under $200.00.  The dealer I purchased the rod from has recomended a make I’ve never seem before T Tom (T Top?).  What do the sages (no pun inteneded) of rec.outdoors.fishing.fly have to suggest? Thank you in advance! Ross

 Hello Ross, I believe the reel he is speaking of is a Teton.  They make a nice reel.  Although, if you are looking for a real clean setup I would look no further than the new Ross Colorado.  The size you want is about $100 and the spools are about $50.  This reel only has a pawl to keep it from free spooling.  No Drag!  But really, is a drag that important on anything under a 6-7 weight rod.  I like the exposed rim. If you feel that you need a drag, maybe the cimmaron by ross would be a good bet.  It is lighter than the Teton. Enjoy Life, Paul Johnson,

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I would go with the Ross reels. Either the Cimarron ($170) or the Gunnison ($210). The gunnison has a great disc drag. Very good reels, beautiful finish and they are light. I would go with the extra $10. Otherwise, the Cimarron is great. No disc drag, otherwise, just as good and pretty. kmustad – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

After much debate, I finally went out and  purchased a new rod.  A Scott  5wt STS.  Why am I telling you all this?  Mostly because I need advice on which reel will be the best match for this rod.  Under $200.00.  The dealer I purchased the rod from has recomended a make I’ve never seem before T Tom (T Top?).  What do the sages (no pun inteneded) of rec.outdoors.fishing.fly have to suggest? Thank you in advance! Ross

Response:

After much debate, I finally went out and  purchased a new rod.  A Scott  5wt STS.  Why am I telling you all this?  Mostly because I need advice on which reel will be the best match for this rod.  Under $200.00.  The dealer I purchased the rod from has recomended a make I’ve never seem before T Tom (T Top?).  What do the sages (no pun inteneded) of rec.outdoors.fishing.fly have to suggest? Thank you in advance! Ross

It getting to be a real bitc… when $200 is a mid priced reel.  The good news is IMHO, that it tough to beat the Cortland LTD’s, which you can have for around $100, and xtra spools for under $40.  Fine disc drags, easy to clean, graphite construction. made in UK (sorry George) USA made look to Tetons, and Lamsons.  There are undoubtedly others but these I own and use. jg

Response:

It getting to be a real bitc… when $200 is a mid priced reel.  

Can you believe it? The good news is IMHO, that it tough to beat the Cortland LTD’s,

They are a good reel. I use the size 80 for my DT5F and WF6F lines and it works just fine. Not as smooth as others, but it’s always been reliable for me. Room for 100 yards of 20lb backing (give or take). Mine is 5(?) years old and has seen lots of streamside rocks and boat bottoms and is still kicking. I’ve never been particularly careful with that reel and it’s never given me a problem. I sort of like the fact that I can bang it around a bit and not fret and fuss. If I had one of the Abel reels with the "Coral" finish, I think I’d be afraid to bring it outside. look to Tetons, and Lamsons.

I would also look at the Orvis Battenkill. I know some on the group tend to quiver at the O-word, but I do very much like their reels. If I had the cash, you can bet I’d have a CFO on my trout sticks. My Battenkill 8/9 Disc has served me well over the past few years since I bought it. The SA System 2L reels are nice and more trout sized than their bigger cousins. I like their smooth drag system (at least the few I’ve fondled in the shops). Bob Petti Endwell, NY

Response:

After much debate, I finally went out and  purchased a new rod.  A Scott  5wt STS.  Why am I telling you all this?  Mostly because I need advice on which reel will be the best match for this rod.  Under $200.00.  The dealer I purchased the rod from has recomended a make I’ve never seem before T Tom (T Top?).  What do the sages (no pun inteneded) of rec.outdoors.fishing.fly have to suggest? Thank you in advance! Ross

I definitely don’t qualify as a sage (no pun inferred) but, I am ecstatic about an LL Bean Streamligh that I paid around $60.00 for.  It has a pawl drag without much oomph to it, but other than that, its extremely ligh weight and has a great feel to it.  On top of that, LL Bean has as good a return policy as you will ever find.  I am using a 4/5 on a 9 ft sage LL 4 wt.  Good Luck! Randy

Response:

Question:

Ron To get the best traction on a wet surface (a boat ramp) look for an all season tire with a high volume of tread surfaces.  This type of tire will have a lot of tiny cuts in the tread design.  When the tire is stressed pulling a load, this type of tread will flex and the edges of these cuts will grip the road surface.  Do Not consider the course off road tread design!  It has the worst hard surface traction. You should also be very light on the gas pedal.  A posi traction differential is also a big help if it is kept maintained and the clutches adjusted. Would you believe I pull a 3800 lb boat up steep boat ramps with a chev s-10 with no problems? Good Luck Wayne

Response:

The next time this happens, try letting some air out of the rear tires – enough to increase the footprint somewhat. Be sure to air up again at the first opportunity. (Longrigger) writes: | Have your buddies jump in the back of the truck to give it wieght. | I have stuck the floor mats in front of the tires once when I was alone | and got stuck, but sand would be alot better. | | Longrigger

    Try pulling up the anchor on the boat…  (I couldn’t resist!)     No, really…  Tire pressure helps a ton, and the start of the pull is the most important part.  Once underway, roll into the throttle, but maintain traction…  (I think that all of the answers I have read here would help.)     …Sam

Response:

Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower. Question: what kind of tire tread design would provide the *most* friction? Knobby, off-road type, or a smoother "pavement" type? Remember, by the way, that this is extremely low-speed operation, just barely turning, in fact, so concepts like "hydroplaning" probably wouldn’t apply here. We’re talking about pulling a load up a wet concrete surface. How about it, you guys? I need to buy new tires for my truck in

Well iv been towing several different boats for many years and with different car’s here’s my $.01 worth. My last boat is a 3500 -4000 lbs boat and trailer, and iv towed it with my four cylinder turbo 5 speed (not many times) it did well no spinning. But now it has posi and very good traction tires on the rear. I now use a 87 jeep cherokee with a posi and BF comp TA’s works very well. Also on thing to remember is your toung weight. My toung weight is over 250+ lbs , thats why I went to the jeep. At first the jeep was a standard rear end and there was some slipping but since the posi the only time it skips is if I jump on the gas to hard. Does any one out there remember the rule of thumb on toung weight? It’s some % of your total weight should be your toung weight. And this also helps if you have to slow your boat down real fast on the hwy. bye

Response:

Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower.

. . . . Ron Morgan

Since you have more than enough horsepower – if one rear wheel starts to spin, hold the parking brake release open and apply the parking brake.  If you apply hard enough, both wheels will receive power. You can also try stabbing at the parking brake if the engine does not have enough power. Not a sure fire thing.  But it is another trick to but in your bag. Terry Dobie 83 CJ7 Hailey, ID

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I use my Jeep Grand Cherokee to haul my boat.  I learned the hard way that you have to ease into the pull.  I use an awefull ramp in East Falmouth Cape Cod that is always covered in a thin layer of scum.  On one occasion, I was sort of hurried by other boaters waiting to get out of the water and I pulled to fast.  Before I knew it, my tires were spinning and I was moving backward.  OOOOPS!  Thank god I stopped on time.   I now make sure that my air pressure is a little lower (more surface space), and that I ease into the pull.  At this one particular ramp, I often throw handfulls of sand onto the algae to create a little traction.  I read a lot of others posts where sand is the enemy, but in this scenerio, it works well. Good luck David

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out. My truck can just BARELY pull the boat up the ramp under these conditions. If it’s dry, no problem, but when the ramp is wet, the tires slip and spin, sometimes even smoking. It’s a very, very marginal situation. Last night, I came very close to being stranded at a deserted ramp after dark; I could *not* get that boat up that ramp, and finally made it up after creeping about an inch at a time, before the tires would slip. God only knows what kind of wear this produced on my transmission. Question: what kind of tire tread design would provide the *most* friction? Knobby, off-road type, or a smoother "pavement" type? Remember, by the way, that this is extremely low-speed operation, just barely turning, in fact, so concepts like "hydroplaning" probably wouldn’t apply here. We’re talking about pulling a load up a wet concrete surface. How about it, you guys? I need to buy new tires for my truck in another couple of months, and I’d appreciate some input. In addition, I think it’d make an interesting discussion topic, as well. Ron Morgan

Ron, I have a Full size Dodge Van and have never had a problem pulling the boat up the ramp, except for one occasion. It was a really long and very wet ramp. I was having problems with wheel spin, I remember reading somthing about turning your front tires, (somthing about changing the pull ratio) and also applying the parking brake a bit. Boat pulled right out with out any wheel spin what-so-ever. Good luck. Michael

Response:

*snip* months, and I’d appreciate some input. In addition, I think it’d make an interesting discussion topic, as well. Ron Morgan Ron, I have a Full size Dodge Van and have never had a problem pulling the boat up the ramp, except for one occasion. It was a really long and very wet ramp. I was having problems with wheel spin, I remember reading somthing about turning your front tires, (somthing about changing the pull ratio) and also applying the parking brake a bit.

    You must have a non-posi rear end on your van…  The emergency brake trick worked on my ‘91 Dakota when semi-stuck in sand (I had a non-posi rearend).   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Boat pulled right out with out any wheel spin what-so-ever. Good luck. Michael

Response:

Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out.

After many years of enjoying the entertainment of watching people pull boats out at a wide variety of ramps throughout the western US, I know this: The initial pull to get a boat up out of the water is substantial, if you think of how hard it is to pull a small water skier up out of the water, imaging something with 30 times the weight and surface tension and bad hydrodynamics (the trailer…not the boat!) Many people think the best approach is to try to accelerate quickly to "get the damn thing going!", so they give their rig too much throttle. Once you break adhesion on a slick surface, you cannot pull a load equivalent to before you spun the wheels.  So if it spins, let off the throttle and let the wheels catch traction.  Then, try again with less acceleration.  Don’t think that spinning your wheels faster will get you up the ramp, ’cause it will only make it harder to get out. As other posts have said, lowering your tire pressure a little will help a lot.  But I have found on most ramps I can get my boat out by just driving a little more gently and not starting the spinning.  I find an auto trans works better, since you can accelerate from a standstill very slowly without having to dump the clutch.  But I have had several trucks with 4 speeds and a couple of 5 speeds.  You just gotta take it easy, and don’t try to pull the boat out fast.

Response:

I thought friction was normal force times coefficient of friction.  Nowhere mentioning pressure or area.  Deflation is for soft surfaces where pressure does need to be reduced? …        Grasping another opportunity to be wrong!

seems you caught this opportunity nicely That’s the description you find in physics 101, but it doesn’t work well in this case.  It works for flat surfaces in contact (with a few other assumptions).  When you add rough surfaces, compressible and deformable surfaces, and weak surface features (like sand on the ramp) that can withstand only a (smallish) maximum force before breaking away, then surface area and tread play an important role.

Response:

I thought friction was normal force times coefficient of friction.  Nowhere mentioning pressure or area.  Deflation is for soft surfaces where pressure does need to be reduced? pqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpq        Grasping another opportunity to be wrong! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]

Response:

Man, sand on concrete can REALLY cause you to slip!

This isn’t sand on concrete (like a building site) but sand on a concrete boat ramp. All the ramps I’ve seen have been pretty slippery with weed and green gunk. If I used the same ramp every day, I’d scrub the thing clean and use Jeyes fluid or caustic soda on it occasionally to keep the gunk off. I know little about boat ramps, but I do know about silage clamps and slurry lagoons  (bleurgh !) – even for these noxious devices it’s worth doing a bit of scrubbing & hosing occasionally. Failing that, get as big a contact patch as you can. Soft rubber in small tread blocks (not great mud-plugger tread bars) and a low enough pressure to let the tyre flatten as much as is practical. — alt.flame – Making the world a safer place for postal workers.

Response:

How about it, you guys? I need to buy new tires for my truck in another couple of months, and I’d appreciate some input. In addition, I think it’d make an interesting discussion topic, as well.

        Er, does that imply that your current tires are rather bald?         If so, ‘nuf said.         Relative weight of vehicle and tow is important. (If the wheels         on your trailer are bigger than the wheels on your tow vehicle,         you’re in trouble. Saw a Chicago flatlander trying to tow a large         boat with his Beamer. Didn’t make it.)         In your case, the truck should have enough towing weight, but         the question is about weight on the rear wheels.         o The angle of the ramp tends to transfer more weight to the           rear wheels.         o Tounge weight of the trailer is important.         I am hauling a smaller  14′ runabout (40 horse motor) with a         Ranger pickup in a similar situation. I have no problems.         o I have a stick, so can control things better.         o When I was towing with a station wagon and automatic, I would:            o Put the transmission in second            o Step on the brake            o Give it some gas.            o Use the break as a clutch, slowly easing up so that there              was no jerk in the initial pull. Frank R. Borger – Physicist     ___      "I think medical research would show Michael Reese – U of Chicago   |___       that being a Cubs fan lengthens Center for Radiation Therapy   | |_) _    your life. Or maybe it just _seems_ ph: 312-791-8075 fa: 791-2517       |_)

Response:

Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out.

[...]         have you tried deflating the rear tyres a bit?  you’d get a larger         contact area.         andrew —            work phone/fax: 0131 668 8356, office: 0131 668 8357     institute for astronomy, royal observatory, blackford hill, edinburgh                      http://www.roe.ac.uk/ajcwww

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Question: what kind of tire tread design would provide the *most* friction? Knobby, off-road type, or a smoother "pavement" type? Remember, by the way, that this is extremely low-speed operation, just barely turning, in fact, so concepts like "hydroplaning" probably wouldn’t apply here. We’re talking about pulling a load up a wet concrete surface. How about it, you guys? I need to buy new tires for my truck in another couple of months, and I’d appreciate some input. In addition, I think it’d make an interesting discussion topic, as well.

There’s a lot coming into play. I find all terrains are significantly better than road tires.  I would assume mudders are even better.  My guess would be that the deep tread actually allows some of the edges of the tread to grip the ramp, cause there’s certainly lower area in contact.  Course that also means greater psi. Another factor is the softness of the rubber.  I would suspect that given two identical tires, the one with the lower tread life would be better. You could also get a bit wider tires.  I’ve also seen people with a bucket of sand they toss out to get a better grip.  No-one really complains about sand at a launch ramp. kevin

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Well, since you’re having trouble on boat ramps with your pickup you need more weight on the wheels.  If you can’t get buddies or bystanders to sit in the bed to get more weight on the rear wheels, try some of that water in 5 gallon pails (like paint pails).  If you’re in salt water you’ll want lids to keep the water out of the bed; in fresh water that’s not a problem.  10 x 5 gal x 8 lbs/gal is 400 lbs, enough to help quite a bit.  Nice thing about this is you don’t need to drag the extra weight around afterwards, and it’s likely to be available wherever you launch your boat .   — Bart Smaalders                  Solaris Performance     SunSoft http://playground.sun.com/~barts                    2550 Garcia Ave                                                         Mt View, CA 94043-1100

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he one with the lower tread life would be better. You could also get a bit wider tires.  I’ve also seen people with a bucket of sand they toss out to get a better grip.

Man, sand on concrete can REALLY cause you to slip! Sand on ICE is ok but no sand is better on non-frozen concrete. George Bonser

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How about it, you guys? I need to buy new tires for my truck in another couple of months, and I’d appreciate some input. In addition, I think it’d make an interesting discussion topic, as well. Ron Morgan

Wide, sticky tires in my opinion. Though they spread the weight out more, there is more surface for gripping. It will reduce fuel economy somewhat though.  Also, I would worry more about hydroplaning on FRONT wheels where you could loose steering control. You might try putting some weight over that axle or letting 5lb of air out if you get stranded. George Bonser

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Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out. Ron Morgan

I stuck my truck in Galveston Bay this way.  My solution was to buy an old CJ5.  Now I drop into 4 wheel drive in low range.  And no problem. A cheaper alternative is to mount a trailer ball on the front which keeps those rear wheels way up out of the water. cfly — Charlie and Dorothy Fly Non-Trivial Solutions 2951 Marina Bay Dr. Suite 130-349 League City, TX  77573-2733

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Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out. Ron Morgan

Ron – When you buy your tires, make sure you get a better traction rating.  Talk to the tire dealer about traction ratings and wet pavement.  He may help you out tremendously. (Softer tires may wear quicker.) Other solutions to consider can make a big difference :         1. Put a couple hundred pounds of sand bags or blocks in the                 very back of the truck.  Spinning can be caused by not                 enough weight on the rear wheels.         2. Adjust your boat on the trailer to increase the tongue weight                 of the trailer (not to an extreme).  With the boat further                 on the trailer, you will get more weight on the truck tires.         3. Next truck, get limited slip differential to use both back wheels instead of one. Good luck and may all your ramps be dry ones, Joe

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Have your buddies jump in the back of the truck to give it wieght. I have stuck the floor mats in front of the tires once when I was alone and got stuck, but sand would be alot better. Longrigger

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Almost everybody I know has had the same problem with some combination of boats, ramps and tow vehicles. I have better traction on my jeep since I moved up on tire size. The tires are all weather radials. I can still spin all 4 tires if the ramp is mucky enough. Just having new tires will make a difference because the rubber will be softer and the thicker tread will be more compliant than on the older tires. My neighbor mounted a hitch ball on the front bumper of his 2WD truck which let him keep his rear tires high and dry. This can be particularly important at low tide, especially on ramps in estuaries that tend to silt up and/or grow moss. I carried a 20 foot heavy duty tow rope for several years untill the size of my tow vehicle caught up with my boat. I have also seen tongue extensions used for the same purpose. Many sailboaters use these because a keelboat has to be sent WAY back before it will float off the trailer. They either telescope out of the trailer tongue or are carried along side. Some of them even have their own wheels on them that will take much more abuse than a standard trailer jack wheel. My jeep has mushy rear springs and a short wheelbase, so I don’t run with much tongue weight. You can usually run much more tongue weight on a real truck like yours. 300 or 400 lbs of tongue weight, if you are not already running that much, could do a lot for your traction problems. Check with the truck manufacturer to see what they recommend.                                                 vaaler

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& Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 & pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The & boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, & of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower. & Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off & other boats that were just pulled out. & My truck can just BARELY pull the boat up the ramp under these & conditions. If it’s dry, no problem, but when the ramp is wet, & the tires slip and spin, sometimes even smoking. It’s a very, & very marginal situation. Last night, I came very close to being & stranded at a deserted ramp after dark; I could *not* get that & boat up that ramp, and finally made it up after creeping about an & inch at a time, before the tires would slip. God only knows what & kind of wear this produced on my transmission. You don’t say what the truck is, but does it have a limited slip differential (pozi-trac, sure-grip, etc)?  If not that would get you double the traction.  They can be added to many of the trucks out there. Hewlett Packard              (707) 794-4848 fax      (707) 538-3693 home 1212 Valley House Drive      http://web.sr.hp.com/~frankb/ Rohnert Park CA 94928-4999   KC6WUG, AMA, DoD #7566, NMLRA, I’m the NRA. U.S.A.              Dodge V8 Dakota, Yamaha IT175 XT350 YZF600R Seca 750

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out. My truck can just BARELY pull the boat up the ramp under these conditions. If it’s dry, no problem, but when the ramp is wet, the tires slip and spin, sometimes even smoking. It’s a very, very marginal situation. Last night, I came very close to being stranded at a deserted ramp after dark; I could *not* get that boat up that ramp, and finally made it up after creeping about an inch at a time, before the tires would slip. God only knows what kind of wear this produced on my transmission. Question: what kind of tire tread design would provide the *most* friction? Knobby, off-road type, or a smoother "pavement" type? Remember, by the way, that this is extremely low-speed operation, just barely turning, in fact, so concepts like "hydroplaning" probably wouldn’t apply here. We’re talking about pulling a load up a wet concrete surface. How about it, you guys? I need to buy new tires for my truck in another couple of months, and I’d appreciate some input. In addition, I think it’d make an interesting discussion topic, as well. Ron Morgan

    Ron I had the same ‘problem’ with my old truck (‘91 Dakota with limited slip).  I would put up a slippery ramp and one tire would spin (no posi!)…  I helped the situation by putting all of the crap in the back of the truck that was in the boat, to put more weight over the rear tires (Coolers, skis, gas cans, clothes, etc.)  This made a difference.  I don’t know what type of truck you have, or if it has posi, but with my NEW ‘95 Dakota w/posi + 5 speed I am able to pull that same boat, with all of the crap still in the boat, with no problem out of the same ramp.  I do run a lower tire pressure, as this tends to put more rubber onto the ground, giving more traction.  You might try that too…(it wouldn’t hurt).       BTW  If you didn’t already know this, when pulling out of a boat ramp with a automatic trans, and you work pretty hard to pull that boat up (any pull should be considered) the ramp, make sure you don’t pull up to the staging area and shut off your truck while securing you boat. All of the heat generated by the pull will not leave the transmission (as it didn’t get cooled yet by the transmission cooler)…and can cause a lot of wear/tear/damage to your transmission.  My bone-head friend went through 2 transmissions over 2 seasons going to the Colorado river with his boat.  Every time he got it out of the water he would shut down, secure the boat, then take off…with an air temp of about 110 F. that truck would almost boil the transmission fluid!!!  He learned.     I got a 5 speed ( no cooler needed!), and it works a lot better than a automatic (at least for me it does).     My $.02     ..Sam

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Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out. My truck can just BARELY pull the boat up the ramp under these conditions. If it’s dry, no problem, but when the ramp is wet, the tires slip and spin, sometimes even smoking. It’s a very, very marginal situation. Last night, I came very close to being stranded at a deserted ramp after dark; I could *not* get that boat up that ramp, and finally made it up after creeping about an inch at a time, before the tires would slip. God only knows what kind of wear this produced on my transmission. Question: what kind of tire tread design would provide the *most* friction? Knobby, off-road type, or a smoother "pavement" type? Remember, by the way, that this is extremely low-speed operation, just barely turning, in fact, so concepts like "hydroplaning" probably wouldn’t apply here. We’re talking about pulling a load up a wet concrete surface. How about it, you guys? I need to buy new tires for my truck in another couple of months, and I’d appreciate some input. In addition, I think it’d make an interesting discussion topic, as well. Ron Morgan

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Question:

Hello to all, I am planning a vacation for next year and would like to get some information about FF in Belize.  I am considering a combination of FF and SCUBA diving and have concluded that the Turneffe Lodge would be able to accommedate my needs. Could anyone please provide + – information about FF or SCUBA in the country of Belize. Thank you for your time —         Mark A. Covian         Denver, CO

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Hello to all, I am planning a vacation for next year and would like to get some information about FF in Belize.  I am considering a combination of FF and SCUBA diving and have concluded that the Turneffe Lodge would be able to accommedate my needs.

Wow, underwater flycasting! (couldn’t resist <g) — Blair Sharpe Ottawa, ON, Canada

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Mark I just got back form Belize last spring.  I dove and flyfished.  THe flyfishing guides real expensive but I managed to chase bonefish on some of the keys off of Placentia.  I also had a lot of fun chasing Jacks in some of the smaller lagoons.  I had a blast. If youhave questions give me a call 213 461-34222

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