Question:

To my horror, I just checked my fly vest and found a bottle of each. I will seal them and bury them to a safe depth. What should I use instead? — Citizen Fisherman

Response:

To my horror, I just checked my fly vest and found a bottle of each. I will seal them and bury them to a safe depth. What should I use instead?

KY Jelly? –Steve

Response:

Well, I’ve got plenty of that… — Citizen Fisherman

Response:

To my horror, I just checked my fly vest and found a bottle of each. I will seal them and bury them to a safe depth. What should I use instead? — Citizen Fisherman

Kissass…… –waldo

Response:

LO fucking L

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To my horror, I just checked my fly vest and found a bottle of each. I will seal them and bury them to a safe depth. What should I use instead? — Citizen Fisherman Kissass…… –waldo

Response:

Fine by me. I’ll just keep buying and using Gink. — Citizen Fisherman

Response:

Fine by me. I’ll just keep buying and using Gink.

Eh, what the hell… Better check with the manufacturer of your Inflato-sheep, Sybil…I hear it eats through that kind of cheap vinyl… …and if the owner(s) of the name "Inflato-sheep" wanna sue me, I have something else they can wrap their lips around and attempt to inflate…

Response:

Inflato-sheep? I’m sorry. I’m not familiar with that product. Perhaps you could fill us in… — Citizen Fisherman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fine by me. I’ll just keep buying and using Gink. Eh, what the hell… Better check with the manufacturer of your Inflato-sheep, Sybil…I hear it eats through that kind of cheap vinyl… …and if the owner(s) of the name "Inflato-sheep" wanna sue me, I have something else they can wrap their lips around and attempt to inflate…

Response:

Any Loon product would be worth the investment. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To my horror, I just checked my fly vest and found a bottle of each. I will seal them and bury them to a safe depth. What should I use instead?

Response:

Inflato-sheep? I’m sorry. I’m not familiar with that product. Perhaps you could fill us in…

Yup, as I suspected – <yawn…OK…try eBay… Come on, Sybil, I KNOW you got it in ya – you can be a veritable gold mine…

Response:

Any Loon product would be worth the investment.

Um, well, wouldn’t that be the same…oh, you mean the OTHER Loon product…oh, geez, another innocent victim is gonna hear from the team of "Bert, Ernie, and Oscar, LLP"….frankly, and this isn’t a legal opinion, he just might a have a case there, first use and all… TC, R

Response:

I’m completely in the dark here. You don’t use floatant with bass bugs. Can somebody overcome their repulsion long enough to give me the scoop. I DO NOT want to show up at any trout stream with this Gink shit. (smooch)… — Citizen Fisherman I’m starting to grow on you, admit it. Don’t worry. The Doctor can prescribe an ointment… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any Loon product would be worth the investment. Um, well, wouldn’t that be the same…oh, you mean the OTHER Loon product…oh, geez, another innocent victim is gonna hear from the team of "Bert, Ernie, and Oscar, LLP"….frankly, and this isn’t a legal opinion, he just might a have a case there, first use and all… TC, R

Response:

Inflato-sheep? I’m sorry. I’m not familiar with that product. Perhaps you could fill us in… Yup, as I suspected – <yawn…OK…try eBay… Come on, Sybil, I KNOW you got it in ya – you can be a veritable gold mine…

See, that’s the thing about high expectations. Wolfgang who knows that tetherballs really DO rule the universe

Response:

To my horror, I just checked my fly vest and found a bottle of each. I will seal them and bury them to a safe depth. What should I use instead? — Citizen Fisherman Kissass…… –waldo

        post of the fucking month. who loves ya, waldo! (how’s that for kissass, you lying scumbag?)

Response:

Wolfgang who knows that tetherballs really DO rule the universe

Sad, oh so sad, but true. MC

Response:

Right before my innocent eyes, I saw this perfectly sane, highly intelligent man go banana!  He was last seen with a spade in hand, digging this big hole. After a few hours, he climbed out, pulling the ladder out after himself, picked up his fly fishing vest and threw it into the hole.  Two hours later, it was all filled back end. Satisfied, he picked up a little bottle of Gink and one of Xink, put them into his shirt pocket and smiling in great satisfaction, returned the spade to his pal, Harrison. Observing his beaming face, "Mr. Harrison, esq." asked, "How’d it go?" "I learned him!" he smiled. Wayne Harrison could see the tears welling up in Waldo’s eyes so he took him in his arms to comfort him as he sobbed these deep, throbbing sobs of relief. "Don’t you feel better now that you buried that bottle of World Excellent Product Gink & Xink?" Waldo stiffens and backs off with this blank, far away look.  His lower lip begins to quiver and his right hand shoots to his mouth for self control.  He bites down on his shooting finger and then, suddenly he lets out this horrifying, Arrrrgggguuuhhhhhhhhh! The last we saw of this scene as the reporter peaked over the back fence was Wayne Harrison handing the spade back to Waldo and walking away, slowly shaking his head. Waldo collaped where he stood until Winter’s White Wagon fetched him up to deliver him home to the new mound, still fresh . . . and somewhere, there, deep down in the earth,  a vest full of flies waited for the return of what he still had in his shirt pocket. We love you Walt.  Hang tough man.  You’re going to make it yet! Your Pal in the Great N.W. State of Washington, George Gehrke – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To my horror, I just checked my fly vest and found a bottle of each. I will seal them and bury them to a safe depth. What should I use instead? — Citizen Fisherman Kissass…… –waldo

  george.vcf

1K Download

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Right before my innocent eyes, I saw this perfectly sane, highly intelligent man go banana!  He was last seen with a spade in hand, digging this big hole. After a few hours, he climbed out, pulling the ladder out after himself, picked up his fly fishing vest and threw it into the hole.  Two hours later, it was all filled back end. (in?)  Could it be "IN?"  Heads yes, Tails no. Satisfied, he picked up a little bottle of Gink and one of Xink, put them into his shirt pocket and smiling in great satisfaction, returned the spade to his pal, Harrison. Observing his beaming face, "Mr. Harrison, esq." asked, "How’d it go?" "I learned him!" he smiled. Wayne Harrison could see the tears welling up in Waldo’s eyes so he took him in his arms to comfort him as he sobbed these deep, throbbing sobs of relief. "Don’t you feel better now that you buried that bottle of World Excellent Product Gink & Xink?" Waldo stiffens and backs off with this blank, far away look.  His lower lip begins to quiver and his right hand shoots to his mouth for self control.  He bites down on his shooting finger and then, suddenly he lets out this horrifying, Arrrrgggguuuhhhhhhhhh! The last we saw of this scene as the reporter peaked over the back fence was Wayne Harrison handing the spade back to Waldo and walking away, slowly shaking his head. Waldo collaped where he stood until Winter’s White Wagon fetched him up to deliver him home to the new mound, still fresh . . . and somewhere, there, deep down in the earth,  a vest full of flies waited for the return of what he still had in his shirt pocket. We love you Walt.  Hang tough man.  You’re going to make it yet! Your Pal in the Great N.W. State of Washington, George Gehrke To my horror, I just checked my fly vest and found a bottle of each. I will seal them and bury them to a safe depth. What should I use instead? — Citizen Fisherman Kissass…… –waldo

  george.vcf

1K Download

Response:

Well, I’ve got plenty of that… — Citizen Fisherman

And here I thought you were a real man!

Response:

I’m not real… — Citizen Fisherman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I’ve got plenty of that… — Citizen Fisherman And here I thought you were a real man!

Response:

I recommend potassium cyanide mixed 50-50 with DMSO. It only works, though, if you apply it with bare hands.

Now,  _that’s_ funny!!

Response:

Right before my innocent eyes, <sumthin snipped yer just green cuz i got nominated fer "post of the month"…. –waldo

yah, I know . . . but did the final vote come in  yet?  Its hard for a dang yankee like myself fighting that N.C. political coalition.  You have the edge on me pal.  I’ll settle for "Honorable Mention"

  george.vcf

1K Download

Response:

Right before my innocent eyes, <sumthin snipped

yer just green cuz i got nominated fer "post of the month"…. –waldo

Response:

This is a public service announcement, by a concerned private individual. The author of the above post,  has lied, cheated, and stolen from members of this newsgroup. He is also known for his tendency to vitriolic abuse of a severe and personal nature, barely intelligible ranting of an insulting nature, completely ridiculous and self aggrandising stories also invariably of an insulting nature, and for spamming his products incessantly. Past experience has clearly demonstrated that it is best to avoid any contact with him, if one wishes to avoid trouble. This announcement is not an opinion on his products, or an opinion on the person concerned, it is simply a statement of fact, and a well meant warning. Various methods have been tried to rid the group of this person, but due to the nature of usenet, and as he apparently possesses neither shame, nor morals, to any discernible degree, and has a wide range of ISP

Question:

This report

"Grin" Very enjoyable read!! jim

Response:

[snip] I had a great time.  Walt and Jeff were fine gentlemen and wonderful fishin’ buddies.

Yadda, yadda, yadda, now tell us the truth, eh!  :) Peter

Response:

[snip] I had a great time.  Walt and Jeff were fine gentlemen and wonderful fishin’ buddies.

You had me going up until this statement. I expect the two guys you fished with were really Leigh Perkins and Lefty Kreh out slumming, they like to do that to stay in touch with the little people<g. (You didn’t buy any books, videos or dog beds from them did you?) — Charlie…

Response:

(You didn’t buy any books, videos or dog beds from them did you?) — Charlie…

All three items, why do you ask? Opus

Response:

All three items, why do you ask?

In that case, they *will* be back<g. — Charlie…

Response:

This report is the fault of Steve Zimmerman and Jeff Connelly. Well that’s cool, it was worth it.  I could practically taste the beer and feel the cold water.  That’s why we argue so much you know, because we’re stuck behind our computer, bitter and cranky because we’re not actually

fishing. Speak for yourself, Jeff Actually, I did go fishing yesterday morning at the pond and caught a bunch. Not trout, but satisfying nonetheless. Afternoon fishing has been really good so just lemme know when you want to go again. –Steve

Response:

Steve, At the very least you could have noted the *substance* of my report. You bitch. <G Opie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This report is the fault of Steve Zimmerman and Jeff Connelly. Well that’s cool, it was worth it.  I could practically taste the beer and feel the cold water.  That’s why we argue so much you know, because we’re stuck behind our computer, bitter and cranky because we’re not actually fishing. Speak for yourself, Jeff Actually, I did go fishing yesterday morning at the pond and caught a bunch. Not trout, but satisfying nonetheless. Afternoon fishing has been really good so just lemme know when you want to go again. –Steve

Response:

This report is the fault of Steve Zimmerman and Jeff Connelly.

Well that’s cool, it was worth it.  I could practically taste the beer and feel the cold water.  That’s why we argue so much you know, because we’re stuck behind our computer, bitter and cranky because we’re not actually fishing. Regards, Jeff

Response:

Speak for yourself, Jeff Actually, I did go fishing yesterday morning at the pond and caught a bunch. Not trout, but satisfying nonetheless. Afternoon fishing has been really good so just lemme know when you want to go again. –Steve

Sure!  Really good for *you*!  (This is an inside joke people.  Last time we went Steve caught a bass on his first cast, before I even was rigged.  On that shiny new bamboo rod of his, no less.  I proceeded to catch nothing.  He even gave me his exact fly.  The only thing I hooked was a rock which busted my line.  I think it was a native though, while Steve’s was stocked.) OK, maybe I’ll give it another shot…. Regards, Jeff

Response:

This report is the fault of Steve Zimmerman and Jeff Connelly.  Steve’s fault because of his no *substance* post last evening, Jeff’s because he had the audacity to e-mail me asking about the trip.  My hand was forced.  What follows is tedious and mind numbing, read at your own risk. Opie REPORT:  Fishin’ with Walt Winter and Jeffrey Miller We met at the confluence of Howard’s Creek and Wilson’s Creek.  I arrived first.  I was promptly accosted by dos game wardens.  I was handing over my fishin’ license, when the ranger dude said, "I smell the strong odor of marijuana, do you have any marijuana in your possession?" I had just finished a beer, and at first, I thought he was actually asking about the odor of alcohol.  I regained my composure, and told him I did not have any pot and that he was welcome to search my Suburban.  He declined.  I was wearing a skull bandana, and I sport a goatee.  There was no odor of pot present, eight or so years ago there would have been, but alas no longer.  I can only assume that I was profiled.  I was unaware that the rangers service had an *idiot* profiling program. I was still waiting for Walt and Jeff Miller, so I decide on another beer. I was leaned over in the front of my truck (that’s what I call my Suburban, no need to tell me its not a truck) reaching into the cooler for another beer, when someone said, "Had any luck?"  I spun around to see who it was, as I had not heard another vehicle pull up.  It was another game warden.  I dropped the beer I was holding back into the cooler.  I frantically started out of the truck and said that I had started fishin’ yet. He said, "but I see your boots are wet."  Shit these guyz are sticklers for detail.  I had been in the stream, while waiting on Jeff and Walt.  I proceeded to stammer well yeah, I had actually been in the stream casting a fly, but was really waiting on some buddies to really get started fishin’. I rambled nervously about having met Walt and Jeff over the internet at ROFF .  He was totally disinterested and probably thought this was some strange gay flyfishin’ site.  He asked for my license.  I stated that I had already been checked and wanted to know if he smelt the strong odor marijuana.  He look at me very puzzled, so I explained the previous rangers comments.  He declined to see my license since I had already been checked. However, he did want to search my truck for contraband.  He peered in, saw the all the shit I keep in my truck and waived any further search.  Gotcha! Walt and Jeff finally drove up.  I couldn’t help but notice when they stepped from the truck that they both used walkers.  Greeting were exchanged I was proffered a beer.  Still trembling from my last encounter with the ranger, I declined.  Walt proceeded to eat everything in site. Finally, we hit the stream.  I had tied on a dry fly with dropper nymph in tow.  I believe both Walt and Jeff had tied on straight nymphs.  The wind whip at gale force.  The Sun shone brightly.  We moved up the stream takin’ turns casting to unseen fish.  There were small mayflys buzzin’ about here and there, but no real hatch to speak of. I, being the magnanimous sort, said I would defer to the masters.  Walt proceeded to get hung-up in a tree, Jeff was having trouble casting and maintaining his walker too.  I decided then and there, I could fish with these guyz. To be perfectly honest, not much happened fish wise for me.  Walt did catch a few nice Browns.  The wind blew incessantly all day.  Jeff and I had a few hits but no landings. We decided to head back around five-ish.  We looked for a trail out.  I found an old loggin’ trail that led us into the thick of the mountain laurels.  We got back on the stream believing cliff climbing beat bushwhacking.  After a bit more rock hoppin’, Walt found a marked trail which we took.  It led us right back to the stream about fifty yards or so beyond where we had begun the trail.  Agreeing now that we would just rock hop and cliff climb our way out, I said follow me boys and proceeded across the stream.  Two steps and I was lying flat on my back in the stream.  They left me to flounder about, and took a dryer route. We made it back to the trucks before dark, popped the tops on some beers. They drank  some vile shit, I chose to drink an import (Coors Light).  They declined my offer of beef jerky, I declined their offer to go fuck myself. We drove to the top of the mountain stopped had another beer together, talked a bit, froze a bit, and finally parted ways vowing to never meet again!  The End. I had a great time.  Walt and Jeff were fine gentlemen and wonderful fishin’ buddies.

Response:

Question:

I learned a long time ago that the one and only, guaranteed, always correct response to anything that anyone says about fly fishing is "Well, I thought it was "lots of little brookies," when asked, "how’s the fishing on this stream?"

The correct response to QUESTIONS is, "Not much, …..you?"

Response:

The correct response to QUESTIONS is, "Not much, …..you?"

or.."a little slow." but it’s been my experience that once the words, "lots of little brookies" have been uttered, they stop asking questions. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyo Before you buy.

Response:

The correct response to QUESTIONS is, "Not much, …..you?" or.."a little slow." but it’s been my experience that once the words, "lots of little brookies" have been uttered, they stop asking questions.

Wouldn’t work here.  In northern WI and the Upper Peninsula of MI "lots of little brookies" is exactly what Bubba is stalking.  You can keep ‘em at seven inches.

Response:

1. "It’s not worth getting up early for stream fishing. The fish bite better after the water warms." Directly related to the number of drinks around the fire the night before

"Dawn is a time of the greatest biological drift." Not sure about biological drift, but catching fish or not, there is no finer time astream.

2. "Cover lots of water types in order to determine the fishes’ feeding pattern" I do this when I’m nervous or upset.

"Find an area that will hold fish and fish it thoroughly from top to bottom, changing flies and sizes until you find what the fish want." And this when totally relaxed and focused.

3. If during a hatch you’re not getting any interest in your fly: "drop down a size." "put on a large attractor pattern like a Coachman." "swim a streamer through the feeding fish" "change positions in order to get a better presentation." All true and I tend to do them in this very order.

4. "Fishermen try to get too close to the fish, I don’t like to get any closer than 30 feet." Rising brown, spring creek, midges or other small dries.

"I always try and get closer than 30 feet from a feeding fish. 15 or 20 feet is better. Casts over 30 feet are too hard to control." Free stoner stream, wide pool, anxious rainbows, cutts or brookies and a good caddis hatch.

5. "C&R is immoral" Ok

"C&R is THE answer" Sure

"C&K is the destroyer of our fisheries" Don’t be silly

6. "The San Juan isn’t crowded." No doubt there are long sections that see zero anglers. Of course they hold no trout either.

"All special reg waters are crowded." It can seem that way, but if you happen to hit it right….

"Special regs waters are less crowded." See above

7. "The upstream dry is the only way to fish." Some days I practice this and really enjoy it.

"Anything you can cast with a fly rod goes." I’ve cast hoppers and worms and even powerbait with the fly rod.  It ain’t the norm, but I’ve done it.

8. "Stocking is the cause of the problems of our rivers." Fix some – break some – it’s human nature.

"Stocking is our salvation." For many many a lake and plenty of moving water this is true.  Look at New Zealand.  A wonderful result of historic stocking.

9. "Use a short heavy leader for nymphing." For Pyramid lake Lahontans there is no other leader.

"A leader with a very long tippet is the best for nymphing." Closer to the truth for tiny nymphs and sluggish trout.

"The newer commercial leaders makes tying your own obsolete." Unless of course you enjoy tyinig up your leaders.

"Hand tied leaders perform best." Oh yea?  Tell Vinnie.  He was kind enough to give me a new line a few seasons back for my birthday.  He hand tied the leader and it promptly broke on a submarine of a fish out of East Delaney back in 95.  I’ll never forget that fish. Niether will he.

JE * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping.  Smart is Beautiful

Response:

This got me to thinking of other seemly conflicting pieces of advice and information that are given. Below are some that come quickly to mind. Quotes are paraphrases based on my limited memory. [Quotes snipped]

..great stuff Will/Susan, here’s another one..from a former workmate/internet- friend Fred Templin..raised in PA (browntrout country): *when they’re not rising, pull out a grasshopper…  when they refuse that, pull out the dynamite…. steve d.

Response:

I was kneeling at streamside yesterday scanning an area while trying to peer through the surface chop to find some feeding fish, when I looked upstream and noticed another angler shotgunning some pocket water with rapid fire casts. I was struck by the difference in our angling styles. The advice, "You can’t catch a fish with your fly in the air," came to mind. Then I thought of the advice,"You need to spend more time being observant. Look before you fish." This got me to thinking of other seemly conflicting pieces of advice and information that are given. Below are some that come quickly to mind. Quotes are paraphrases based on my limited memory. 1. "It’s not worth getting up early for stream fishing. The fish bite better after the water warms." "Dawn is a time of the greatest biological drift." 2. "Cover lots of water types in order to determine the fishes’ feeding pattern" "Find an area that will hold fish and fish it thoroughly from top to bottom, changing flies and sizes until you find what the fish want." 3. If during a hatch you’re not getting any interest in your fly: "drop down a size." "put on a large attractor pattern like a Coachman." "swim a streamer through the feeding fish" "change positions in order to get a better presentation." 4. "Fishermen try to get too close to the fish, I don’t like to get any closer than 30 feet." "I always try and get closer than 30 feet from a feeding fish. 15 or 20 feet is better. Casts over 30 feet are too hard to control." 5. "C&R is immoral" "C&R is THE answer" "C&K is the destroyer of our fisheries" 6. "The San Juan isn’t crowded." "All special reg waters are crowded." "Special regs waters are less crowded." 7. "The upstream dry is the only way to fish." "Anything you can cast with a fly rod goes." 8. "Stocking is the cause of the problems of our rivers." "Stocking is our salvation." 9. "Use a short heavy leader for nymphing." "A leader with a very long tippet is the best for nymphing." "The newer commercial leaders makes tying your own obsolete." "Hand tied leaders perform best." Willi

Response:

This got me to thinking of other seemly conflicting pieces of advice and information that are given. Below are some that come quickly to mind. Quotes are paraphrases based on my limited memory.

[Quotes snipped] Got a kick outta that.  It should probably serve as a reminder to all of us that flyfishing is definitely not an exact science. What works at one time in one location won’t work at all somewhere/sometime else.  All your quotes are simultaneously both true and false. That’s what makes flyfishing interesting.  If it were any other way, would we all be so psychotic about catching a simple fish?      - Ken — ET1 – Evil Twin #1 "Guilt replaced the fun" – ROFF-Tim "Ethical conduct is purely a personal thing, and the only  arbiter of personal ethics is your own conscience."  - Mike Connor

Response:

1. … 2. … 3. … 4. … 5. … 6. … 7. … 8. … 9. …

Geez Willi, what are you trying to do, waste a whole winters worth of Saturday arguments in one Tuesday afternoon ? — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

William Loehman/Susan Schwarz wrote [a collection of conflicting ideas]. It’s when one of these paradoxes issues forth from the same mouth that things get confusing. By the way, I never heard "6.  The San Juan is’nt crowded" Before my time, I guess. —                                                       -dnc-

Response:

ET1 wrote Got a kick outta that.  It should probably serve as a reminder to all of us that flyfishing is definitely not an exact science. What works at one time in one location won’t work at all somewhere/sometime else.  All your quotes are simultaneously both true and false. That’s what makes flyfishing interesting.  If it were any other way, would we all be so psychotic about catching a simple fish?      - Ken

The almost religious attachment of certain fishers, especially guides, to particular ways of doing things always brings a wry grin when I get contrary information from the next expert I hire.  Just yesterday I read an article about how to get a drag free drift by actually allowing the downstream pointing loop to form as it flows in the current.  (There’s a little more to it than that, but the technique does run contrary to the conventional wisdom).  ("Extending Your Drag-free Drifts" by Curt Trout in Fly Fisherman).

Response:

It’s when one of these paradoxes issues forth from the same mouth that things get confusing. By the way, I never heard "6.  The San Juan is’nt crowded"

In a recent book I read, a guide that worked the Juan actually made the statement, "The myth about the San Juan being too crowded is just a myth." I was glad to read that most of the other guides interviewed in the book felt that over crowding was a real problem on the most popular waters and most were in favor of some restrictions.  One shop actually, on their own, cut down on the number of trips they make on an over used river in their area even though there is a very high demand. Willi

Response:

Willi wrote [a collection of conflicting ideas]. By the way, I never heard "6.  The San Juan is’nt crowded" Before my time, I guess.

Probably uttered by visitors from the South Platte. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyo Before you buy.

Response:

[snipped] Uh oh! William discovered our secret! It’s all over now but the backpedalling…

Response:

While completely nekkid, William Loehman/Susan Schwarz 1. "It’s not worth getting up early for stream fishing. The fish bite better after the water warms." "Dawn is a time of the greatest biological drift."

I imagine it depends on the water temperature at dawn. If its 60, then the fish will probably be happy. And don’t forget that the big browns, LM bass, and some catfishes are nocturnal anyway. "I always try and get closer than 30 feet from a feeding fish. 15 or 20 feet is better. Casts over 30 feet are too hard to control."

If your casting skills are like mine, get within dapping distance. 5. "C&R is immoral"

Let your conscience and your DOW regs be your guide. 6. "The San Juan isn’t crowded."

The South Platte is mobbed. The Gunnison at Almont isn’t. These are all like the famous police oral board question: Can you (shoot a fleeing felon/arrest a drunk)? The correct answer being "It depends upon the circumstances…" "They conferred, as against the Government, the right to be let alone — the most comprehensive of rights…" -Justice Louis Brandeis

Response:

……thinking of other seemly conflicting pieces of advice….

I learned a long time ago that the one and only, guaranteed, always correct response to anything that anyone says about fly fishing is "Well,

Response:

I learned a long time ago that the one and only, guaranteed, always correct response to anything that anyone says about fly fishing is "Well,

I thought it was "lots of little brookies," when asked, "how’s the fishing on this stream?" — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyo Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

This is way off topic (sorry).

Tony: Not even remotely off-topic.  Actually, in an interesting sort of way, it’s very on-topic.  Spam was a favorite subject in MPFC skits, and it is much in vogue here on roff. Bob "The Camembert is quite runny, today." Before you buy.

Response:

You must live in Utah, too, then? A video store not far from here did an extremely brisk business last year blanking out the bare-breast scene on "Titanic" videos.  You ain’t seen strange until you’ve seen "community standards" in Utah.

I haven’t been to Utah for about 7 years, but one thing that struck me as odd was that waitresses in restaurants told me they were prohibited by law from asking if I wanted a "drink".   They always asked if I wanted a "beverege" so as not to promote the consumption of alchohol. Joe F.

Response:

My personal favorite, the renowned German film "Tin Drum" adapted from recent nobel Prize winner Gunter Grass’s novel…BANNED in locations all over the U.S. due to allegations of kiddie-porn. Yup…such things do indeed occur here. ACP   Wishing I was on one of my favorite New England streams RIGHT NOW. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip Prepare to be stunned Edwin.  Not only do various movies still get banned, albeit mostly on a local basis, but they still ban books too.  We live in a very strange place.  I believe that "Huckleberry Finn" is still the most banned book in America! Go figure.

Response:

Hmmm… let me clarify, if possible. I did note that some stuff is likely to be banned if it is extremely pornographic in some sense ( and the courts let local communities decide on standard of decency, though there has been , as of my last check, some move to have a national standard ( see pope v illinois, forget date). additionally, something being banned in my opinion means that the STATE somehow keeps it from being made available… some business owner, as noted inthe utah case, not making something available or editing it, is not BANNING… notwithstanding, i am willing to stand partly corrected. edwin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My personal favorite, the renowned German film "Tin Drum" adapted from recent nobel Prize winner Gunter Grass’s novel…BANNED in locations all over the U.S. due to allegations of kiddie-porn. Yup…such things do indeed occur here. ACP   Wishing I was on one of my favorite New England streams RIGHT NOW. <snip Prepare to be stunned Edwin.  Not only do various movies still get banned, albeit mostly on a local basis, but they still ban books too.  We live in a very strange place.  I believe that "Huckleberry Finn" is still the most banned book in America! Go figure.

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Incredible. You’re right about the film, absolutely wonderful. The book is even better, must have read it about three times by now.. Cheers, Herman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My personal favorite, the renowned German film "Tin Drum" adapted from recent nobel Prize winner Gunter Grass’s novel…BANNED in locations all over the U.S. due to allegations of kiddie-porn. Yup…such things do indeed occur here. ACP   Wishing I was on one of my favorite New England streams RIGHT NOW. <snip Prepare to be stunned Edwin.  Not only do various movies still get banned, albeit mostly on a local basis, but they still ban books too.  We live in a very strange place.  I believe that "Huckleberry Finn" is still the most banned book in America! Go figure.

–         Cheers, Herman         Herman Nijland         Daytime webmaster         Lifetime flyfisher

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do we have a topic index?  guess i missed it….anyway, hey tony…i say old chap, how about taping it for us. <GG  I think yer about a bottle short if you’re gonna watch python *and* rugby…MP is the all-time funniest stuff ever served up…it’s soul twisting and twisted humor…my favorite… but rugby, the lions vs. the christians had to be easier to watch…those guys make the nfl look like a bunch of brits at a tea party…   course, we’ll be doin our own bit of MP…bunch of old farts searching for the holy grail…some of us on horseback, too.  wish you were here. jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is way off topic (sorry). Tomorrow night on BBC2 is ‘Python Night’! The thirtttietthh annniverrrsarry!!! There will be reviews; interviews and retrospectives; even the old MP gang dipping into the dressing-up box for some brand new sketches. AND …. a showing of the ‘Life of Brian’ (the funniest film ever screened). Did some of you see the Life of Brian? Like Darwin; like Harry Potter … it was banned from some (?) of the States in the Union. And, before that, tomorrow afternoon: England v. New Zealand in the Rugby Union World Cup. You buggers just don’t know what you are missing. I have two bottles of Glenmorangie to assist me through this ordeal. Tight Lines Who cares? Tony Deacon

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Excellent-but shouldn’t that be  ’Sorry, this is ROFF,….’ !!! David – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW, I could flyfish with anyone who likes Monty Python.. You bloody, coffee-nosed, flyfishing twit! I hate bloody Monty Python! Shut your pathetic Yankee gob! Oh, you’re here for an argument? Sorry, this is Abuse. Down the hall and to the right, please. Next! — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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Oh man….I hate to do this, as it soudns jingoistic as hell, but… I would be stunned to findout any monty python movie had ever been BANNED in the united states.  IN fact, i would be stunned to find out any movie short of outrageously hard core porn, and even that, had ever been banned. and of course, python is the most funny stuff ever.  period. nudge nugdge. edwin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is way off topic (sorry). Tomorrow night on BBC2 is ‘Python Night’! The thirtttietthh annniverrrsarry!!! There will be reviews; interviews and retrospectives; even the old MP gang dipping into the dressing-up box for some brand new sketches. AND …. a showing of the ‘Life of Brian’ (the funniest film ever screened). Did some of you see the Life of Brian? Like Darwin; like Harry Potter … it was banned from some (?) of the States in the Union. And, before that, tomorrow afternoon: England v. New Zealand in the Rugby Union World Cup. You buggers just don’t know what you are missing. I have two bottles of Glenmorangie to assist me through this ordeal. Tight Lines Who cares? Tony Deacon

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Prepare to be stunned Edwin.  Not only do various movies still get banned, albeit mostly on a local basis, but they still ban books too.  We live in a very strange place.

You must live in Utah, too, then? A video store not far from here did an extremely brisk business last year blanking out the bare-breast scene on "Titanic" videos.  You ain’t seen strange until you’ve seen "community standards" in Utah. Bob Before you buy.

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<snip Prepare to be stunned Edwin.  Not only do various movies still get banned, albeit mostly on a local basis, but they still ban books too.  We live in a very strange place.  I believe that "Huckleberry Finn" is still the most banned book in America! Go figure.

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BTW, I could flyfish with anyone who likes Monty Python..

You bloody, coffee-nosed, flyfishing twit! I hate bloody Monty Python! Shut your pathetic Yankee gob! Oh, you’re here for an argument? Sorry, this is Abuse. Down the hall and to the right, please. Next! — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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Send us a match report when you get to the end so we can all have a laugh at your drunken despondency (All Blacks are bound to win by a huge margin)!

http://www.rwc99.com/tournament/report.sps?matchid=2000405 (Hoping Wales beat the team of antipodean round-eyes that call themselves Japan!)

http://www.rwc99.com/tournament/default.sps — Phil Jones Nogood Boyo

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This is way off topic (sorry). Tomorrow night on BBC2 is ‘Python Night’! The thirtttietthh annniverrrsarry!!! There will be reviews; interviews and retrospectives; even the old MP gang dipping into the dressing-up box for some brand new sketches. AND …. a showing of the ‘Life of Brian’ (the funniest film ever screened). Did some of you see the Life of Brian? Like Darwin; like Harry Potter … it was banned from some (?) of the States in the Union. And, before that, tomorrow afternoon: England v. New Zealand in the Rugby Union World Cup. You buggers just don’t know what you are missing. I have two bottles of Glenmorangie to assist me through this ordeal. Tight Lines Who cares? Tony Deacon

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Did some of you see the Life of Brian?

Tony, I’ve seen about twenty times.  I think I have it on tape somewhere around the house (unless my kids have taped cartoons over it:) I’ll never forget the part with Biggus Dickus and the WeeWees Woger! (Release Roger) part of the movie.  I have tears in my eyes just thinking about it! Tim

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Did some of you see the Life of Brian? Tony, I’ve seen about twenty times.  I think I have it on tape somewhere around the house (unless my kids have taped cartoons over it:) I’ll never forget the part with Biggus Dickus and the WeeWees Woger! (Release Roger) part of the movie.  I have tears in my eyes just thinking about it!

"Thwow him woughly to the gwound!" Priceless! Again, I apologise for such a blatantly off topic contribution. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

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And, before that, tomorrow afternoon: England v. New Zealand in the Rugby Union World Cup. You buggers just don’t know what you are missing. I have two bottles of Glenmorangie to assist me through this ordeal.

You’ll need ‘em both KIWI,KIWI,KIWI!

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This is way off topic (sorry).

When the only topic is George, his damned rods or bloody gink/xink – off topic is fine! And, before that, tomorrow afternoon: England v. New Zealand in the Rugby Union World Cup. You buggers just don’t know what you are missing.

Yes I do, never ceases to amaze me how we can get 60 cable channels here and its all crap, and full of spam!  Amazingly the good old Beeb and ITV produce stuff in a totally different quality league.  Give me 4 (or 5) UK great channels instead of all this rubbish! (Ok, there is the odd decent thing on here now and then but no consistency.) I have two bottles of Glenmorangie to assist me through this ordeal.

Send us a match report when you get to the end so we can all have a laugh at your drunken despondency (All Blacks are bound to win by a huge margin)! David (Hoping Wales beat the team of antipodean round-eyes that call themselves Japan!) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tight Lines Who cares? Tony Deacon

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Did some of you see the Life of Brian? Like Darwin; like Harry Potter … it was banned from some (?) of the States in the Union.

Got it on tape, and I watched it on cable when I lived in Kansas so if it was banned it wasn’t *very* banned<g. Always look on the bright side of life… — Charlie…

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This is way off topic (sorry). Tomorrow night on BBC2 is ‘Python Night’! The thirtttietthh annniverrrsarry!!! There will be reviews; interviews and retrospectives; even the old MP gang dipping into the dressing-up box for some brand new sketches. AND …. a showing of the ‘Life of Brian’ (the funniest film ever screened). Did some of you see the Life of Brian? Like Darwin; like Harry Potter … it was banned from some (?) of the States in the Union.

a) Life of Brian is a frequent re run over here on Comedy Central as is the rest of the Python stuff. Hell even Fawlty Towers is on here. And, before that, tomorrow afternoon: England v. New Zealand in the Rugby Union World Cup.

b) Rugby Games are widley available at least in the Boston area in pubs, which is where I am heading. You buggers just don’t know what you are missing.

c) wam beer, bad food, Spice Girls, farmed trout, shite weather – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have two bottles of Glenmorangie to assist me through this ordeal. Tight Lines Who cares? Tony Deacon

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"He’s not the messiah!  He’s a very naughty boy!" Never get enough of that.. I do remember when the movie first came out, I was probably 18 or so, and my mother forbade us all from seeing it.. we grew up good Catholic boys, you see. Ironically enough, I just saw her recently, and the whole group of us rented "Life of Brian" and I think mom laughed more then the rest of us. -Mark BTW, I could flyfish with anyone who likes Monty Python.. This is way off topic (sorry). Tomorrow night on BBC2 is ‘Python Night’! The thirtttietthh annniverrrsarry!!! There will be reviews; interviews and retrospectives; even the old MP gang dipping into the dressing-up box for some brand new sketches. AND …. a showing of the ‘Life of Brian’ (the funniest film ever screened). Did some of you see the Life of Brian? Like Darwin; like Harry Potter … it was banned from some (?) of the States in the Union.

– Particle Salad/ Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad mp3 songs: http://www.mp3.com/particlesalad

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Question:

I’m moving to the Patapsco River, MD area near Ellicott City.  Any recommendations on good fly fishing spots and what types of fish?

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Steve, I fish a few areas of the Patapsco, mostly between the dam at Daniels Road and the Rt. 70 bridge.  It’s loaded with smallmouths, rockbass and bluegill.  They recently stocked it with trout, so there’s no sense even fishing it right now.  From mid May through late October it’s one of the most delightful streams I’ve ever fished.  Shallow, firm bottom, lots of rocks and boulders, and very few people bother with it.  Access is easy, with railroad tracks on one side and a bike trail on the other.  Good luck. Doug  

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try the Patapsco. (0r the gunpowder, potomac, cheseapeake bay, wherever you look.)  (Be more specific:  salt, brack, lake, trout, smallmouth, largemouth, picky trout, easy trout, big trout, little trout, far drive, near drive, wow.  If you are a trout purist you will do ok. . .Wolfe’s fly shop in Ellicott City. ) Dave

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Question:

Rogue River Rifleworks 1317 Spring Street Paso Robles, CA 93466 805/227-4706 805/227-4723 This is a new company neaded by Geoff Miller, who came from the aerospace industry and high power shoting. They make boxlock and side lock double rifles, and customize M88 Win lever guns into very high grade rifles. The double rifles use modern mfg methods to cut costs. I understand they use CNC machines and fitting techniques to eliminate the English hand regulation process. Boxlocks start at $11,750 (Anson & Deeley action, .470, .500 and .577 Nitro Express), sidelocks start at $17,250 (Holland & Holland Pattern, .470, .500 and .577 NE). The lever guns are $3,750 (.243 Win, .260 Rem, 7mm-08, .308 and .358 Win). I handled their guns at the SCI show in Las Vegas, and they are very nice. I particularily liked their M88 Win. Worth investigating. Quality is what you would expect at these prices. Craig Boddington (who now lives in Paso Robles) is their technical advisor…jim dodd San Diego

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Can anyone name some hunting outfitters accessible by internet? Thanks

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Contact Wayne Stufflebean at Ventures Outdoors(EMAIL) ventures    Wayne has contacts with outfitters of all kinds. I booked a hunt through him this past year and was 100% pleased before, during and after the hunt. Cazadore

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I’m a hunting outfitter and somewhat of a cyber junkie. Check out my pages. Can anyone name some hunting outfitters accessible by internet? Thanks

– Brian D. Nelson, Missoula, Montana Montana Flyfishing and Hunting Outfitter http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm http://www.montana.com/dno/hunt.htm

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m just into my second year of fly-fishing and confess I am addicted. Wanted some opinion about what order to make changes when looking for fish, i.e. do you use a fly fishing various depths, and then move to another spot and begin the process again. Or do you stay in the same spot and change fly. Or move and change colour of fly… I know there isn’t a real answer to this, and confidence will come with time, but any tips would be appreciated. I tend to fish small stillwaters rather than reservoirs. Many thanks in advance Simon

Are float tubes allowed in your part of the world? You might try a tube and "troll" a nymph or streamer along the shoreline. If fish are surface feeding – tie on the proper dry fly. If no tubes allowed and you can see fish or can see feeding rings on the surface  then stay and change flies until you work out what they’re feeding on. If you’re just blind fishing and have no idea if fish are present, you’ve got to figure out where the fish are. This means having some info. on time of day, water temp, wind conditions and a few other factors will determine where to cast and what to cast. On a windy day the food wil be blown to the downwind side of the lake. Early and late in the day – fish will be working the shoreline and in the middle of the day out in deeper water, in general. Hope this helps a little. Don B. PS – You’ll find much more help if you post to: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Wishful collector of Gillums and Dickersons – owner of Montague, H-I and Heddons.

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I agree with the other reply you recieved with the exception that on windy days I go to the windward side of the lake and present dry flies. I believe that alot of bugs are blown into the water and the trout are waiting on them. It is also much easier fishing if you are behind the trees on the calm water.                              Leif da Lucky                              Anchorage, Ak. PS Where in the UK are you. My Mom was born & raised in London.

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I’m just into my second year of fly-fishing and confess I am addicted. Wanted some opinion about what order to make changes when looking for fish, i.e. do you use a fly fishing various depths, and then move to another spot and begin the process again. Or do you stay in the same spot and change fly. Or move and change colour of fly… I know there isn’t a real answer to this, and confidence will come with time, but any tips would be appreciated. I tend to fish small stillwaters rather than reservoirs. Many thanks in advance Simon

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Question:

I have a Tempo and camp/fish every other weekend. I love it!  It is a great car but space is somewhat limited.  I’m sure the car can handle the drive but you will have to pack wisely.  Space is adequate for 2 on short (1 week) journeys, but I suspect you may run out of places to store your gear if you will be out longer than that. Jim

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[ Article crossposted from rec.travel.usa-canada ] [ Author was Ray F Pero ] My wife and I will be travelling around the Yukon from late July until late August this year.  We will fly into Whitehorse, rent a car and drive around the territory.  We also hope to hook up with some local (inexpensive) outfitters for a guided wilderness experience. I need answers to three questions to help me plan our trip. 1) The best rental car deal appears to be for a Ford Tempo.  Would a Tempo be good enough for the drive up the Dempster Highway to Inuvik and back? 2) We intend to camp along the way to save some money on accomodations.   How much can I expect to pay per night at the campgrounds?  Is it necessary to reserve space ahead of time or can I just show up? 3) Many of the trips listed in the brochures I’ve received in the mail regarding wilderness adventure travel are prohibitively expensive.  Would there be any local guides who we could hire by the day for a more reasonable amount of money?  I don’t expect anyone to carry my gear or cook for me, I simply want someone who knows the local terrain and conditions and who could add an element of safety to the trip.  I’m hoping I can save money with the added benefit of tailoring the trip to meet our wishes.  How much would a local guide charge per day for such a trip?  We will bring all of our own equipment (except possibly for a canoe should we decide upon a river trip). Any help with the above questions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

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[ Article crossposted from rec.travel.usa-canada ] [ Author was Ray F Pero ] My wife and I will be travelling around the Yukon from late July until late August this year.  We will fly into Whitehorse, rent a car and drive around the territory.  We also hope to hook up with some local (inexpensive) outfitters for a guided wilderness experience. I need answers to three questions to help me plan our trip. 1) The best rental car deal appears to be for a Ford Tempo.  Would a Tempo be good enough for the drive up the Dempster Highway to Inuvik and back?

Yes, I think you would make it.  It is a really well kept gravel road in comparison to any gravel roads in the lower 48, and high clearance is not a requirement.  Make sure to bring at least one if not more spare tires in good shape and full of air as the gravel really eats up the tires. The only challenge on this road is the remoteness should anything go wrong. I blew one tire and it was shredded by the time I got the car stopped, the gravel is very unforgiving.  Also slow WAY down and/or stop and pull over as far as you can to the right whenever a truck is oncoming as they throw lots of gravel and don’t slow down for you.  Much better to take a gravel spray stopped than moving.  Also stop in Dawson before you start the trip and check on the current conditions at the visitors center.  They have nice videos to preview the trip and really get you excited and informed before you go.  Also plan on more days than you think for the trip. 2) We intend to camp along the way to save some money on accomodations.   How much can I expect to pay per night at the campgrounds?  Is it necessary to reserve space ahead of time or can I just show up?

No need to reserve space, there is no overcrowding, although if you are worried about getting a choice campsite then stop early in the day, like 4 or 5pm instead of 8,9, or 10pm.  Although all the campsites are great and firewood is included in your self registration fee.  Be sure to bring some sort of axe though as it is not pre-chopped. 3) Many of the trips listed in the brochures I’ve received in the mail regarding wilderness adventure travel are prohibitively expensive.  Would there be any local guides who we could hire by the day for a more reasonable amount of money?  I don’t expect anyone to carry my gear or cook for me, I simply want someone who knows the local terrain and conditions and who could add an element of safety to the trip.  I’m hoping I can save money with the added benefit of tailoring the trip to meet our wishes.  How much would a local guide charge per day for such a trip?  We will bring all of our own equipment (except possibly for a canoe should we decide upon a river trip).

Local guides are definitely available; just look for flyers in resteraunts and on posts, in sporting goods stores, asking around, etc. They are definitely the best way to go IMHO because they are usually locals who have lived there for a good long time and have a lot of character.  My personal recommendation is to plan to spend some quality time in Teslin, south of Whitehorse.  Teslin Lake is large, but provides excellent fishing opportunities, especially for Lake Trout.  There is also great fishing in the streams that feed the lake, and many challenging hiking trails.  I’m sure even canoeing would be a possibility.  We arrived in Teslin and wanted to fish for Lake Trout, found a flyer describing a guide, at the general store, went to the resteraunt and found a pay phone inside. We proceeded to make the call and it turned out the guide was in the resteraunt and answered on his mobile phone.  It was hilarious.  So we booked him for the next day and we had a blast.  I would definetly recommend him and if you would like his info I may be able to find it at home.  He also had all kinds of tips for the rest of our trip.  He informed us of where the locals tell people to fish and where the locals fish.  He also did guided hiking, rafting, etc. Well worth the $, and much cheaper than an outfitter. Any help with the above questions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Have a great time; I wish I was going again. Feel free to email me with more questions. Ken Koca — Lockheed Martin Astronautics   (303) 977-5464 Mail Stop: T-3725 P.O. Box 179                   "Don’t think about Denver, CO  80201              memories, make them."

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Question:

This subject is getting a lot of press with the identification of the disease in the Madison, so there is (finally) some information out there. The disease has been in Colorado for some time now and is getting worse. The culprit is almost certainly illegal stocking or (apparently in the case of Colorado) knowingly stocking with diseased fish.  There is evidence that the disease can be spread to other rivers via boots and other fishing equipment, but (at least according to Dick Vincent at the Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks Department) it is not spread by wildfowl. Brook trout and salmon are also affected. I suspect now that a river as important as the Madison has been affected, we will see a lot more about this and other threatening diseases.

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I would be interested in seeing the Washington Post article and the article mentioned in December from the Bozeman Gazette.  The posts I have been reading here about Whirling disease have really been upsetting.  My fishing buddies and I are trying to figure out what the best course of action for us would be.  Certainly no good plans have come from the "experts" as of yet (this would seem to be especially true in Colorado). Why hasn’t there been much yet in the fly fishing ‘literature’?  I haven’t read a thing in FR&R or Flyfisherman.  It would seem that research into why Browns and other unaffected species are immune would be the way to get this disease out of fish populations.  Does anyone involved in Fisheries Management or Biology at Montana State or at CU know anything about any research into the molecular biology/pathogenesis of this disease?  Please post!

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If this thing is protozoan and can potentially be spread by our wading boots, does anyone have any suggestions or know what we should be doing with our waders after fishing any of the potentially affected waters?  How long can the protozoa live out of water?  I often fish the Madison for a day or two, then go to the spring creeks in the Paradise Valley.  I would hate to be contributing to the spread of this disease into those waters, or any other for that matter!

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:   What about cutthroats? From what I have heard–in both Montana : and Colorado (and perhaps the Truckee too)–the brown trout are OK! : Does anybody know anything about Whirling disease and cutthroats? The Washington Post article mentioned that cutts are susceptible to the disease. Rick — T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.  

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as u have pointed out whirling disease has made its way inot the wild population and indeed this is bad news.  as i have had it described to me this disease effects the delicate bone structure in juvinelle fish so when frightened/starteled they swim in small fast concentric circles instead of going for cover.  in addition, i have also heard that it is usually the result of the close confines of hatcherys that spread it, as u may also have heard the state of colorado fish & game department is releasing hatchery fish with this disease into some of their blue ribbon water, for what reason god alone knows and god aint speakin on this subject.  anyway i hope that the local TU chapters get involed in this an can help Mr. Vincent out.  from all reports he is a pretty good guy and knows a thing or two about how to maintain a wild trout population.  any news on this unhappy event is most welcome

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disease has been discovered in the wild rainbow populations of Montana’s upper Madison. None of us here knows anything more than that just yet. But it continues to look bad. The outfitters haven’t really caught on, because the spring/winter fishing is good at this very moment. But whirling disease, apparently, only effects the tiddlers. In a few more seasons, once the current crop of bigger rainbows has died off from old age, there may be no more little fish to replace them. I wish I knew more about what’s going on. I’ve heard that Whirling disease made its way into wild rainbow populations in Colorado some time ago. Who down there in Colorado knows something about this? Which Colorado river systems are effected? How long has this been going on, etc?  Is the Colorado problem stable in any way, or is it getting worse? —

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: some time ago. Who down there in Colorado knows something about this? : Which Colorado river systems are effected? How long has this been RE: Whirling Disease I met with some guides here in the shop over Christmas and this was the issue at hand. It looks very grim and much worse then originally speculated.  The guides are accusing the Colorado DOW of a MAJOR cover up.  They have SCREWED up big time and since fishing is such a huge economical thing…noone will come straight.  The local guides are going to try to take matters into their own hands and we are in the process of recommending a wierd but hopefully effective idea to the DOW for the 96-98 regs…the idea is to close off feeder streams to all fishing during the rainbow spawn. The idea is to try to get some of these genetically farked up fish to produce (naturally) fish that are genetically immune to the disease.  It is a long shot, but better then no shot.   Apparently noone is talking but the rumour is that all year classes are missing in some of the major drainages (i.e. NO/0/nada/zip baby fishes) and that the spore (?) is present throughtout the state and that it originated in a hatchery in Utah. All colorado fishermen should pressure anybody and everybody they know for more information ans to support this closed rainbow spawning fishing season in the feeders… Tim Walker

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RE: Whirling Disease Apparently noone is talking but the rumour is that all year classes are missing in some of the major drainages (i.e. NO/0/nada/zip baby fishes) and that the spore (?) is present throughtout the state and that it originated in a hatchery in Utah. Tim Walker

  What about cutthroats? From what I have heard–in both Montana and Colorado (and perhaps the Truckee too)–the brown trout are OK! Does anybody know anything about Whirling disease and cutthroats? —

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I understand that there was an article in the Washington Post today (1/4) on the whirling disease in the Madison.  I have not seen it, but would like to get a copy if anyone has one.

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:   What about cutthroats? From what I have heard–in both Montana : and Colorado (and perhaps the Truckee too)–the brown trout are OK! : Does anybody know anything about Whirling disease and cutthroats? My understanding is that the cutts aren’t affected, allthough I haven’t conducted too many fry surveys and the misinformation in general does scare me.   Damned hatcheries indeed.  If only the folkes could to see fit to spend their tax monies on stream improvements and accept a greatly reduced general catch limit while the wild stocks rebound… Population estimates for colorado are around 5 million by the year 2000.  The state is just too fragile for this many people.  No, I don’t begrudge folkes for wanting to live here. Nor do I have any answers.   It frightens me to the core. Tim Walker

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: Hey, I may be stupid, but can anyone explain what Whirling disease is? It is a disease that affects the spine of rainbow trout fry that first showed up in the state hatcheries.  Now the dept of wildlife has introduced it into the waters and it is affecting the wild stock.   It is very, very serious and some think we are on the brink of a disaster of major proportions.  I really hope that some biologist in the know (Bob Golder…what’re you up to today) would really fill in the blanks. Tim Walker

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Hey, I may be stupid, but can anyone explain what Whirling disease is? Paul

Whirling disease is caused by a protozoan parasite that invades the cartilage of the skull, gill arches and spine.  It affects only trout and salmon.  Rainbow trout are the most seriously affected, browns (which probably coevolved with the parasite in Europe) are somewhat, but not totally resistant. The parasite goes through a complex life cycle which involves spores which may persist in the bottom sediments for many years, hence it is here to stay in the Madison. It may make infected fish swim in a circle  (whirling) or die, but more frequently cause deformities or make the fish more susceptible to predation or environmental episodes. It was discovered in Colorado in the late ’80s, Utah in ‘91 and now in Montana. Utah initiated a strong program to try to eradicate it when it was first discovered.  Later findings showed it had been spread, perhaps intentionally, to other parts of the state.  Current efforts are directed to try to protect wild native cutthroat from the disease.  Montana has a good program and  has been trying to prevent it from coming into the state.

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Hey, I may be stupid, but can anyone explain what Whirling disease is? Paul

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Whirling disease…..not good.  Up to 90% of the rainbows have died.  I got this from a guy at Lakestream Fly Shop in Whitefish last week.  It doesn’t seem to be affecting the brown trout population that badly.  Yet…another distrubing note.  They are not sure how the disease is spreading.  I am going to ask a fishery pathologist i know, on what he knows what is going on.  I will post the info that evening.  I will try to do it on Monday. If anyone around here knows what is going on…he will.  Yet the info coming my way on the impact of the disease is NOT GOOD!.  Just pray I guess. Peter

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Last night’s Bozeman Daily Chronicle ran the headline "Madison River Rainbows Diseased," or something like that. The story identified Whirling disease as the culprit, and quoted Montana Fish and Game Biologist Dick Vincent, who said upper Madison rainbow populations had plummeted from 3300 to 300 fish/mile in a single season. Brown trout, so far, seem unafected.    Whirling disease has traditionally been associated with hatchery fish in the past. How this disease has made its way into a wild population remains a mystery. But Dick Vincent did mention scattered reports of hatchery rainbows mysteriously appearing in the upper Madison in late 1980’s. What this means is anyone’s guess. Montana hasn’t stocked rainbows in the Madison for decades.    What happens next? There are rumors. But nothing definite yet. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a complete fishing closure on the upper Madison for a few years. It’s not clear that a slimy Elk Hair Caddis–heavily used Monday evening on the Madison–couldn’t transmit Whirling disease to Big Hole or Yellowstone rainbows on Tuesday morning. It would be a real tragedy if the lower Yellowstone’s (now) recovering native Cutthroat populations were to become effected (decimated?) too. This could be really bad news. —

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Last night’s Bozeman Daily Chronicle ran the headline "Madison River Rainbows Diseased," or something like that. The story identified Whirling disease as the culprit, and quoted Montana Fish and Game Biologist Dick Vincent, who said upper Madison rainbow populations had plummeted from 3300 to 300 fish/mile in a single season. Brown trout, so far, seem unafected. <snip   What happens next? There are rumors. But nothing definite yet. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a complete fishing closure on the upper Madison for a few years. It’s not clear that a slimy Elk <snip again

There are a lot of rumors bouncing around Bozeman today. The main one that I have heard is that FW&P will attempt a total rainbow kill on the Upper Madison, although how they would do this without taking out the browns is anyone’s guess.  Suggestions that I have heard include changing the regs to require people fishing to kill all rainbows and release all browns.  I can’t believe that this would get all of the rainbows – we just don’t fish that well. Another problem will be what to do if they can take out the rainbows completely.  Options would presumably include (a) leaving this stretch of river as a trophy wild brown river, (b) restocking the rainbows from hatchery fish, which would really degrade the fishery for several years, and (c) relocating wild rainbows from other parts of the river. On the less bad news side, it is my understanding that this is limited to the river between Quake lake and Ennis dam.  I never thought that I would be grateful for that stupid dam.  I.e., unless they lose it there is no immediate danger of this getting into the lower Madison and hence into the Missouri, Gallatin, etc.  At the other end, the Madison in Yellowstone National Park, and hence the Gibbon and Firehole, are not currently in danger. Unfortunately I haven’t heard that this will kill off the whitefish. The stretch of river affected by this disease is often claimed to be the best piece of wild trout water in the continental US, so this is already a disaster, and if the disease does get into the browns as well it will probably be 10-20 years before they can fully restore the fishery.  Not a good Christmas present for the people who read this group. Denbigh http://www.cs.montana.edu/~starkey http://www.cs.montana.edu/~starkey/fishing.html 406-994-4780 (work), 406-586-7614 (home)

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Question:

Could someone post a primer on steelhead fishing on the Lake Ontario Tributaries?  Where, what flys, what other types of bait/rig are used (not that I would use anything but a fly, but I have an 8 year old who dreams of landing a big fish and he spins), how to work the fly and the stream.  I’ve read that they haven’t yet come in but we are waiting none too patiently.  Thanks in advance. — Jeffrey D. Morris Applied Math and Statistics Kodak Research Labs Rochester, NY 14650-2205

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Could someone post a primer on steelhead fishing on the Lake Ontario Tributaries?  Where, what flys, what other types of bait/rig are used (not that I would use anything but a fly, but I have an 8 year old who dreams of landing a big fish and he spins), how to work the fly and the stream.  I’ve read that they haven’t yet come in but we are waiting none too patiently.  Thanks in advance. — Jeffrey D. Morris Applied Math and Statistics Kodak Research Labs Rochester, NY 14650-2205

        I believe most people use a roe sac with a bobber and just drift it downstream. Flyfishing is not something I would recommend if the fish are running. Any stream with a hint of movement is covered with anglers crowded almost shoulder to shoulder. If the fish are not in season and you are hoping to pick up stragglers you might be better off.  Most of the flyfishermen I have talked to in the area find that larger bucktails seem to work better than most. keep the hook sharp and the tip up

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Lafleur) writes:

Extreme crowded conditions are the norm during the king salmon runs of September-October.  Steelhead enter the tribs from mid-Oct. all the way until April.  The Salmon River in Pulaski NY is often crowded but if you arrive on a weekday there are most certainly places to fish.  The lower few miles of the river is a private  pay to fish section ($10 weekdays, $15 weekends) and only a a certain number of people are allowed on this property each day.  Overall, the crowds are not bad after the salmon runs are over.  The best bait rig to use is a small salmon egg sac on a #6-10 egg hook dead drifted on bottom using very light line (2-8lb) and a long (9-12 foot) limber rod, called noodle rods around here.  The best fly patterns this time of year are anything that looks like a salmon egg in sizes #6-10 (ex. glow bugs, yarn flies, ect…).  The best colors are usually chartreuse, orange, and a combination of chart. and blue (yup I said blue). These should be fished on a 9-11 ft. rod (slow action preferred), and 2-5x tippets.  The Salmon River is deep and fast, several flyfishers in the area have developed a technique in which 2-4 weight floating lines are used in order to decrease drag caused by heavier lines.  I have not graduated to this level and still use 5-7 weight floating lines.  You will need lots of lead, especially if the waters up, I would suggest purchasing what are called slinky sinkers.  They dont snag on bottom nearly as much as regular split shot and will save you lots of time and money.  Casting with lots  of lead on your line ain’t easy, but it is the only way to get to the fish on some days (we call the casting technique the "chuck and duck"). Hope this was helpfull.                                   Mark Arrigo                                  SUNY College of Environmental Science and Forestry                                   Syracuse NY 13210

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