Question:

Dave, when you get the details all worked out. Post a thread outlining same so everybody won’t respond to such a length that I read them all and get confused. And I hope you recoup your investment first……

Response:

Asadi writes: Dave, when you get the details all worked out. Post a thread outlining same so everybody won’t respond to such a length that I read them all and get confused. And I hope you recoup your investment first……

Will do that, John.  The participation has slowed – 37 tickets right now.  BTW, I ain’t doin’ this to regain any investment.  Remember when I bought it from Vern that several kind folks sent me money which I sent to a teacher in Maine who teaches his 9th graders fly fishing. Dave

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All that said they sure run well and only time will tell if all those moving parts really cause that much trouble. I suppose the timing belt is the big issue but I don’t see any dire warnings in my shop manual about crashed valves. From what I see the oil change is just the cost of the filter and a few bucks worth of oil (every 100 hours). Since I was burning over a pint of oil an hour that TCW3 adds up pretty fast. The reality is, if a fuel injected 2 stroke takes a crap offshore you probably ain’t fixin it either. I’ll take my chances. Being able to idle a mile up the canal and not stall in a cloud of smoke when I get close to the dock makes it all worthwhile. BTW Mercury 40-60 HPs are shipped "wet" and horizontal so leaking must not be a problem. Mine was ready to start when I opened the crate. What happens when you are 10 miles offshore and the timing belt breaks on one of these fancy new 4 strokes?  Do the valves get squashed? You may not have to mix oil with gas, but you have to change the oil and oil filter every so often.  How much will this cost?  Yamaha oil filters cost $25 to $35 a piece ! 4 strokes have more moving parts than 2 strokes – more parts to break and more expensive annual maintenance.  How much does a valve adjustment cost on one of these new 4 strokes? Many of the smaller (under 25 hp) 4 stroke outboards cannot be laid on their side because the oil sump is not sealed.  For someone like me who uses a portable 15 hp outboard on an inflatable which is deflated after every use, the 2 stroke is the only way to go.

I have a carbureted 2 stroke – no computer or electronics to crap out anytime.  7 years old and still going with only spark plug and lower gearcase lube changes.

Response:

Suzuki just came out with a 140 HP Four Stroke that weighs less than a 150 Two Stroke and has equal performance.  I think it was said earlier that you shouldn’t pull info out of your ass.  If you don’t know the facts, shut the F^ck up.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Even better,  a 2002  Yamaha 40 HP 2 stroke weights 194 lbs,  and a 2002 Yamaha 40 HP 4 stroke weights 181 lbs. In other words, the Yamaha 4 stroke weights 13 lbs. LESS than the Yamaha 2 stroke in the 40 HP motor. Try checking Yamaha’s web site and the specifications pages for their motors. Just bought one and I won’t be toting around that heavy 2 cycle oil anymore either. People need to check the web  sites of these manufacturers before they start throwing out fantasy figures about weight problems with 4 strokes.  (or of course just continue to  pull figures out of your ass)

Where do these weight figures come from – a brochure or website?  Ha !!  I trust those about as much as I trust Bill Clinton !!! I bet they weighed those 4 stroke motors dry. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s see, A Yamaha 50 2 stroke weighs 194 lbs. Mercury 50 2 stroke weighs 199 lbs. Mercury 50 4 stroke weighs 236 lbs. Honda 50 4stroke weighs 202 lbs. Not exactly 80 to 100 lbs.  In fact the Honda is a whopping 8 lbs heaver than the Yamaha and 3 lbs heaver than the Merc. Yes, it appears that 4 stroke engines are the future motor.  But keep in mind that 4 stroke are heavier than the old 2 stroke.  In the 40 to 50 hp they can range from 80 to over a 100 pounds more than the 2 stroke. Interesting fact that I did not know which I receive from an old boat and motor mechanic. If you have an older boat, let’s say in the era of 1985, the boat plate may say it will take up to a 45 hp engine.  These boats were rated for 2 stroke not 4 stoke as there were not many 4 strokes around then. Putting a 4 stroke on one of these older boats will take the rear weight up almost a 100 lbs.

Response:

Even better,  a 2002  Yamaha 40 HP 2 stroke weights 194 lbs,  and a 2002 Yamaha 40 HP 4 stroke weights 181 lbs. In other words, the Yamaha 4 stroke weights 13 lbs. LESS than the Yamaha 2 stroke in the 40 HP motor.

Interesting that on the same web page, the 4 stroke Yamaha 30 weighs 198 lb. My guess, the 4 stroke 40 is listed for 181 lb with short shaft, manual start, manual tilt. The 4 stroke 30 comes only with long shaft, electric start, power trim&tilt, same as the 2 stroke 40 hp. Mod.

Response:

I bet they weighed those 4 stroke motors dry.

Yup that 3 quarts of oil and 24 oz of 90w will really pack on the pounds. Me and the truck driver picked up my 60EFI Big Foot and it was still in the crate.

Response:

What happens when you are 10 miles offshore and the timing belt breaks on one of these fancy new 4 strokes?  Do the valves get squashed? You may not have to mix oil with gas, but you have to change the oil and oil filter every so often.  How much will this cost?  Yamaha oil filters cost $25 to $35 a piece ! 4 strokes have more moving parts than 2 strokes – more parts to break and more expensive annual maintenance.  How much does a valve adjustment cost on one of these new 4 strokes? Many of the smaller (under 25 hp) 4 stroke outboards cannot be laid on their side because the oil sump is not sealed.  For someone like me who uses a portable 15 hp outboard on an inflatable which is deflated after every use, the 2 stroke is the only way to go. For most weekend boaters, the 2 stroke outboard is the more long term economic choice even if gas costs $2.50 per gallon. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

All that said they sure run well and only time will tell if all those moving parts really cause that much trouble. I suppose the timing belt is the big issue but I don’t see any dire warnings in my shop manual about crashed valves. From what I see the oil change is just the cost of the filter and a few bucks worth of oil (every 100 hours). Since I was burning over a pint of oil an hour that TCW3 adds up pretty fast. The reality is, if a fuel injected 2 stroke takes a crap offshore you probably ain’t fixin it either. I’ll take my chances. Being able to idle a mile up the canal and not stall in a cloud of smoke when I get close to the dock makes it all worthwhile. BTW Mercury 40-60 HPs are shipped "wet" and horizontal so leaking must not be a problem. Mine was ready to start when I opened the crate. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -What happens when you are 10 miles offshore and the timing belt breaks on one of these fancy new 4 strokes?  Do the valves get squashed? You may not have to mix oil with gas, but you have to change the oil and oil filter every so often.  How much will this cost?  Yamaha oil filters cost $25 to $35 a piece ! 4 strokes have more moving parts than 2 strokes – more parts to break and more expensive annual maintenance.  How much does a valve adjustment cost on one of these new 4 strokes? Many of the smaller (under 25 hp) 4 stroke outboards cannot be laid on their side because the oil sump is not sealed.  For someone like me who uses a portable 15 hp outboard on an inflatable which is deflated after every use, the 2 stroke is the only way to go.

Response:

One exception.  Why can’t I buy a pair of 4-stroke 150s or 175s  to replace my aging Yamahas??? pontificated: # Hello Enn, # # Thanks for the info.

My guess is this: the purveyors of such possibilities don’t yet see the market willing to pay the excessive premium they charge for their higher horsepower four stroke engines. Relative to what they’d like to charge for a four stroke 175, the two strokes of that power are inexpensive. The guys who are buying the 200-225 four strokers don’t seem to mind giving away the excessive bucks. — Harry Krause – - A red is any son-of-a-bitch who wants thirty cents when we’re paying twenty five. – John Steinbeck

Response:

Yes, it appears that 4 stroke engines are the future motor.  But keep in mind that 4 stroke are heavier than the old 2 stroke.  In the 40 to 50 hp they can range from 80 to over a 100 pounds more than the 2 stroke. Interesting fact that I did not know which I receive from an old boat and motor mechanic. If you have an older boat, let’s say in the era of 1985, the boat plate may say it will take up to a 45 hp engine.  These boats were rated for 2 stroke not 4 stoke as there were not many 4 strokes around then. Putting a 4 stroke on one of these older boats will take the rear weight up almost a 100 lbs.

Response:

Let’s see, A Yamaha 50 2 stroke weighs 194 lbs. Mercury 50 2 stroke weighs 199 lbs. Mercury 50 4 stroke weighs 236 lbs. Honda 50 4stroke weighs 202 lbs. Not exactly 80 to 100 lbs.  In fact the Honda is a whopping 8 lbs heaver than the Yamaha and 3 lbs heaver than the Merc. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, it appears that 4 stroke engines are the future motor.  But keep in mind that 4 stroke are heavier than the old 2 stroke.  In the 40 to 50 hp they can range from 80 to over a 100 pounds more than the 2 stroke. Interesting fact that I did not know which I receive from an old boat and motor mechanic. If you have an older boat, let’s say in the era of 1985, the boat plate may say it will take up to a 45 hp engine.  These boats were rated for 2 stroke not 4 stoke as there were not many 4 strokes around then. Putting a 4 stroke on one of these older boats will take the rear weight up almost a 100 lbs.

Response:

A hundred pounds out there on the end of that 12 inch jackplate on that Gambler is a little different than a gas tank in the middle of the boat.  That 4 stroke won’t work very well if it is underwater.  

Del, on the other hand, the guy with that setup doesn’t think twice about putting 200 lbs. of batteries right up against the transom, nor does he hesitate to hit the fill switch on his livewell, adding another 200 lbs. of water to the rear third of the boat.  Moving one battery forward will largely offset the penalty of a heavier motor. — Rich Stern www.nitroowners.com – The Nitro and Tracker Owners Web Site www.mypontoon.com – The Pontoon Boat Web Site

Response:

Even better,  a 2002  Yamaha 40 HP 2 stroke weights 194 lbs,  and a 2002 Yamaha 40 HP 4 stroke weights 181 lbs. In other words, the Yamaha 4 stroke weights 13 lbs. LESS than the Yamaha 2 stroke in the 40 HP motor. Try checking Yamaha’s web site and the specifications pages for their motors. Just bought one and I won’t be toting around that heavy 2 cycle oil anymore either. People need to check the web  sites of these manufacturers before they start throwing out fantasy figures about weight problems with 4 strokes.  (or of course just continue to  pull figures out of your ass) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s see, A Yamaha 50 2 stroke weighs 194 lbs. Mercury 50 2 stroke weighs 199 lbs. Mercury 50 4 stroke weighs 236 lbs. Honda 50 4stroke weighs 202 lbs. Not exactly 80 to 100 lbs.  In fact the Honda is a whopping 8 lbs heaver than the Yamaha and 3 lbs heaver than the Merc. Yes, it appears that 4 stroke engines are the future motor.  But keep in mind that 4 stroke are heavier than the old 2 stroke.  In the 40 to 50 hp they can range from 80 to over a 100 pounds more than the 2 stroke. Interesting fact that I did not know which I receive from an old boat and motor mechanic. If you have an older boat, let’s say in the era of 1985, the boat plate may say it will take up to a 45 hp engine.  These boats were rated for 2 stroke not 4 stoke as there were not many 4 strokes around then. Putting a 4 stroke on one of these older boats will take the rear weight up almost a 100 lbs.

Response:

So, what is your explanation of why there are no 150-175 HP 4strokes? del cecchi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Even better,  a 2002  Yamaha 40 HP 2 stroke weights 194 lbs,  and a 2002 Yamaha 40 HP 4 stroke weights 181 lbs. In other words, the Yamaha 4 stroke weights 13 lbs. LESS than the Yamaha 2 stroke in the 40 HP motor. Try checking Yamaha’s web site and the specifications pages for their motors. Just bought one and I won’t be toting around that heavy 2 cycle oil anymore either. People need to check the web  sites of these manufacturers before they start throwing out fantasy figures about weight problems with 4 strokes.  (or of course just continue to  pull figures out of your ass) Let’s see, A Yamaha 50 2 stroke weighs 194 lbs. Mercury 50 2 stroke weighs 199 lbs. Mercury 50 4 stroke weighs 236 lbs. Honda 50 4stroke weighs 202 lbs. Not exactly 80 to 100 lbs.  In fact the Honda is a whopping 8 lbs heaver than the Yamaha and 3 lbs heaver than the Merc. Yes, it appears that 4 stroke engines are the future motor.  But keep in mind that 4 stroke are heavier than the old 2 stroke.  In the 40 to 50 hp they can range from 80 to over a 100 pounds more than the 2 stroke. Interesting fact that I did not know which I receive from an old boat and motor mechanic. If you have an older boat, let’s say in the era of 1985, the boat plate may say it will take up to a 45 hp engine.  These boats were rated for 2 stroke not 4 stoke as there were not many 4 strokes around then. Putting a 4 stroke on one of these older boats will take the rear weight up almost a 100 lbs.

Response:

I imagine bass boat guys will show up at the 4 stroke dealer when their bans 2 strokes on the lakes. I hope the manufacturers are ready for them.

Response:

| says… | | One exception.  Why can’t I buy a pair of 4-stroke 150s or 175s  to | replace my aging Yamahas??? | | pontificated: | | # Hello Enn, | # | # Thanks for the info. | | | | — | 23′ Grady White, out of Oak Island, NC. | To Mail – Remove the Bee Bees from my address. | | ______ | Posted Via Binaries.net = SPEED+RETENTION+COMPLETION = | http://www.binaries.net | | Because the biggest market for 150 to 175 hp is Bass Boats and a 4 | stroke 150/175 would be too heavy? | | del cecchi | | | | I think this whole over blown ,over weight thing goes out the window as | soon as you load up your coolers full of beer and and extra friend nad | top off the gas tank!! | | I remember buying a 14speed bike (with a 3lb frame) and weighing | everythin in grams to be real light. As soon as I filled my water | bottles, that theory went out the window!! A hundred pounds out there on the end of that 12 inch jackplate on that Gambler is a little different than a gas tank in the middle of the boat.  That 4 stroke won’t work very well if it is underwater.   — Del Cecchi   Personal Opinions Only

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One exception.  Why can’t I buy a pair of 4-stroke 150s or 175s  to replace my aging Yamahas??? pontificated: # Hello Enn, # # Thanks for the info. — 23′ Grady White, out of Oak Island, NC. To Mail – Remove the Bee Bees from my address.

______ Posted Via Binaries.net = SPEED+RETENTION+COMPLETION =

http://www.binaries.net Because the biggest market for 150 to 175 hp is Bass Boats and a 4 stroke 150/175 would be too heavy? del cecchi

Response:

says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One exception.  Why can’t I buy a pair of 4-stroke 150s or 175s  to replace my aging Yamahas??? pontificated: # Hello Enn, # # Thanks for the info. — 23′ Grady White, out of Oak Island, NC. To Mail – Remove the Bee Bees from my address. ______ Posted Via Binaries.net = SPEED+RETENTION+COMPLETION = http://www.binaries.net Because the biggest market for 150 to 175 hp is Bass Boats and a 4 stroke 150/175 would be too heavy? del cecchi

I think this whole over blown ,over weight thing goes out the window as soon as you load up your coolers full of beer and and extra friend nad top off the gas tank!! I remember buying a 14speed bike (with a 3lb frame) and weighing everythin in grams to be real light. As soon as I filled my water bottles, that theory went out the window!!

Response:

Hello Enn, Thanks for the info. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Same in all European countries. Hi All, I just read a good article in the latest issue of "Saltwater Flyfishing" magazine by veteran outdoor writer Bob Stearns. He states that 2 stroke motors are on the way out and that 4 strokes are going to be taking over the US market. I know this will be the fact in the United States but I can’t say much about other countries. Keep this in mind when buying a used or new boat. — Bill Kiene

Response:

Same in all European countries. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I just read a good article in the latest issue of "Saltwater Flyfishing" magazine by veteran outdoor writer Bob Stearns. He states that 2 stroke motors are on the way out and that 4 strokes are going to be taking over the US market. I know this will be the fact in the United States but I can’t say much about other countries. Keep this in mind when buying a used or new boat. — Bill Kiene

Response:

Hi All, I just read a good article in the latest issue of "Saltwater Flyfishing" magazine by veteran outdoor writer Bob Stearns. He states that 2 stroke motors are on the way out and that 4 strokes are going to be taking over the US market. I know this will be the fact in the United States but I can’t say much about other countries. Keep this in mind when buying a used or new boat. — Bill Kiene

Response:

Question:

First, let’s get some math out of the way, and these are generalities, not absolutes:

The guy obviously wants a "yes" or "no" answer, Richard. Cut the bullshit. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

First, let’s get some math out of the way, and these are generalities, not absolutes: The guy obviously wants a "yes" or "no" answer, Richard. Cut the bullshit.

Well, give him Lefty’s answer…

Response:

That leaves the question of how does a beginner decide what are good flies? I don’t have an answer.

If a beginner fortunate enough to have a friend, acquaintance, fellow club member, etc, who is a competent tyer, and is willing to spend a little time with him, (or her),  that is likely the best way to learn the fine points of fly dressing. Whether you are tying or buying, IMHO, that is the best way to go. I have had the good fortune to be associated with several excellent tyers over the last thirty odd years, and most of the limited skills I have, came from observing and talking to them. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

Response:

Modern tyers who discuss such matters in their writing, ala Gierach, seem to average between 12 and 24 flies an hour, depending on pattern, so let’s say 18 an hour.  

I average 4 flies per hour.  When tying for last year’s ROFF fly swap I was doing about 6 per hour after I had tied the first 10 or so.  I guess I never really sit down to just tie like a fiend.  Usually the TV is on or I’m having a drink or both. Mu

Response:

exact same materials, if you sit down 50 tiers and have each of them tie the same pattern, each will be different and most tiers would be able to pick out the fly he tied from the others.

This kind of makes me think of a quote by Jimmy Vaughn when talking about the way his brother played guitar. He simply said," Stevie never played a song the same way once." I think that the variations are what makes tying so interesting. I don’t see why everyone is so concerned about the cost of flies. Since I started tying flies i think that I now have the cost down to about ten bucks a fly. As the guy said after getting out of rehab, tying flies is only slightly more expensive than drugs. Big Dale Big Dale

Response:

Try five-minute-epoxy, and hold the half chicken by the wing for the last thirty seconds ! TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It invariably takes the same amount of time to dress a good fly, as a bad one, in fact good flies are usually quicker to tie, as they involve less material ! TL MC  Is that why my flies take so long to make?  I thought it was because I superglued my fingers to the vise.      Frank "sparse means only half a chicken" Reid

Response:

It invariably takes the same amount of time to dress a good fly, as a bad one, in fact good flies are usually quicker to tie, as they involve less material ! That leaves the question of how does a beginner decide what are good flies? I don’t have an answer.

I think the best bet is to acquire a few from a reliable source…..local fly shop, established mail order supplier, etc., and compare with a variety of cheap flies from K-Mart and other similar sources.  It has been my experience that the differences between good quality flies and crap are striking.  Even a novice should have little trouble spotting the difference after a brief side by side comparison. Wolfgang

Response:

I do not believe there are any really simple answers to many of the questions involved in angling, including the one you posed.  One reason why it is so fascinating.  Even the most simplistic approach requires considerable knowledge before success is likely to be achieved consistently. Beginners, per definition, have difficulties in a whole range of areas, and there is no way to alleviate this, except by obtaining information and gaining experience. This is unfortunately also somewhat complicated nowadays by the vast amount of literature and other information available, much of it of exceedingly doubtful value or pedigree. Beginners are in no position to be able to decide which advice is good, or not. One symptom of this is the veritable flood of books, magazines, websites, your discipline of choice here, be it angling, casting, tying, wading, tying knots, building rods, making leaders, and a host of other stuff.  Some of these things promise immediate expertise just by virtue of reading/perusing them, even a beginner must realise that this is nonsense. Completely independent of what you do, hobbywise, or professionally, the only really sensible way to become better at it, is to do it, at the same time obtaining as much knowledge and experience as you possibly can. One day, or even one hour on the stream with an experienced angler will books.   As will one hour at the bench of a good fly-dresser help you in regard to flies. Quite a few people e-mail me and the same questions are asked over and over again. While I invariably reply to the best of my knowledge and ability, I am often disappointed to discover that many people have made little or no attempt to obtain the information for themselves, either by researching, or simply by trying things out for themselves.  A potted version, with exact instructions from an "expert" suits them better. There are no recipes for instant success at anything, but it appears that more and more people are subscribing to such a belief.  The internet itself, in my opinion one of the greatest achievements on the planet, achieved basically because meddling politicians were kept out of it from the start, is being viewed by more and more people as a portal to instant knowledge, expertise and general entertainment,  from the comfort of their armchairs, without any particular physical effort on their part, and without having to think for themselves. Many people view the newsgroups as a simple and effective way of gaining information they are too lazy to acquire for themselves, and have the cheek to complain, when their often ill worded and arrogant demands are not immediately fulfilled. Their input is also invariably zero. You get out of fishing, or practically anything else, including newsgroups and the like, more or less proportionally to your investment.  Expecting anything else is rather short-sighted to say the least. Even where I to come up with answers to some of the questions, like the one you posed, I fear it would be a mistake to hand it out gratis to all and sundry.  It is apparently so, that many who receive something for nothing, are considerably less appreciative of it, than they would be, had they been obliged to work for it, or pay for it in some manner. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It invariably takes the same amount of time to dress a good fly, as a bad one, in fact good flies are usually quicker to tie, as they involve less material ! That leaves the question of how does a beginner decide what are good flies? I don’t have an answer. Willi

Response:

You get what you pay for.

This is a phrase that is widely tossed around and is applied to everything that is offered for sale. Although there is SOME truth to this saying, people relying on this advice only, are going to make many bad purchases. Buying based solely on price is a foolish way to purchase anything. Willi

Response:

All very true Willi. Some shop flies have enough materials in them to dress three or more flies.  It is a common tendency for beginners  to apply too much dubbing, too many turns of hackle, too much wing, even too many turns of thread.  Very difficult to get some to change. Although I understand what you are saying about this special instance where you are acquiring specific "shop" flies, for model or comparison purposes, I would not advise beginners to do it. Most shop flies are not as good as they should/could be.  Some of the photos and instructions in various books are not a great deal of help either. Often showing "demonstration" or "display" flies, which perhaps look prettier to an unschooled eye. Most professional dressers, and all the good amateurs, are aware of this, but apparently bow to circumstances forced upon them by others in many cases.  Quite a few anglers seem to buy flies with more material in them as well. Good sparse well tied flies are often ignored for some bushy specimen which looks likes "more for their money".  Strange idea, but very widespread. I have yet to see any natural fly with two hundred concentrically ordered legs ! It invariably takes the same amount of time to dress a good fly, as a bad one, in fact good flies are usually quicker to tie, as they involve less material ! TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Although I don’t believe there is ONE correct way to tie even a "standard" pattern, IMO, most flies sold tend to be over dressed. This makes for a "pretty" fly, but one that, I feel, is usually less effective. This applies to all the flies offered in my area except for one shop. This shop buys from a VERY talented local tier who can mass produce, what I consider to be, extremely high quality flies. They get $2.50 per fly although the other shops in the area sell their flies from $.95 to $1.50. I sometimes buy specific flies from this shop that I especially like the look of, to use as a model and to analyze how the tier achieved this look. Willi

Response:

It invariably takes the same amount of time to dress a good fly, as a bad one, in fact good flies are usually quicker to tie, as they involve less material !

That leaves the question of how does a beginner decide what are good flies? I don’t have an answer. Willi

Response:

It invariably takes the same amount of time to dress a good fly, as a bad one, in fact good flies are usually quicker to tie, as they involve less material ! TL MC

 Is that why my flies take so long to make?  I thought it was because I superglued my fingers to the vise.      Frank "sparse means only half a chicken" Reid

Response:

You get what you pay for. This is a phrase that is widely tossed around and is applied to everything that is offered for sale. Although there is SOME truth to this saying, people relying on this advice only, are going to make many bad purchases. Buying based solely on price is a foolish way to purchase anything.

Especially if you equate "expensive" with "high quality", which is the gist of the saying. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

So Mike, when are we going to see your "In the Beginning" series of books, replete with Connorisms and anecdotes??? BTW, if anyone knows a source of Starling feathers off-the-skin, my wife was agast when I went to buy a skin with the little head looking back. — Wayne (credit card in hand waiting to buy the first signed copy) To Fish is Human….To Release Divine!

Response:

Absolutely. Pure grain alcohol will get you just as drunk as the finest scotch. Cheaper is better, all else equal. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Some fella told me using flies made in China or India would save me a big money. Any experience with such stuffs? I believe the expensive must has its reason to be expensive. Right?

Although this question is phrased, IMO, better than most, i.e., "Any experience with….?" rather than "Is "X" (Item, but generally brand) any good?", it non-the-less seems to ask, "Are these flies any good?" and brings up an answer/idea not covered by any of the answers I’ve seen.   First, let’s get some math out of the way, and these are generalities, not absolutes:  Modern tyers who discuss such matters in their writing, ala Gierach, seem to average between 12 and 24 flies an hour, depending on pattern, so let’s say 18 an hour.  Now, the retail price varies greatly, so let’s simply say 1.50US average.  Let’s also use a 50-percent gross to the fly shop, so the wholesale cost is .75US. That means 18 per hour at .75US each, for a total of 13.50US a hour total.  A grocery store I passed this morning had a sign that said, "Help Wanted – 9.25 an hour to start."  Add in materials, and you’ll quickly see that you’ll likely not see anyone who "made a fortune" tying flies.  Even if you adjust the numbers used upward, it still isn’t a highly-paid career.   The point of the above?  Well, mainly, to show that fly-tying isn’t a "get rich" business for the "money-hungry" regardless of what retail purchasers pay.  The cost is almost all based on two factors – the first, the cost of labor (well, the overall production costs, with labor being the lion’s share – John may be a wonderful guy, and an excellent tyer, and I would suspect he’d readily tell you that neither he, nor Archie Best, etc., is the best possible tyer in the US, much less the world), and the second factor, desired markup at retail – which brings us to the second issue – the retail purchaser. A frequently-asked question by "newbies," on or off ROFF, and in many sports/hobbies/etc., is, "How good is this?"  And while there are always a variety of answers, ranging from "Good" to "Bad" (phrasing also varies greatly, as well <G).  However, IMO, the "answer" should be questions: "How good do you want and/or need, how much are you willing to pay at what return, are ascetics alone important to _you_, etc.?"  This is why I liked the poster’s phrase, "Any experience with…"   IMO, people have become much too concerned with what others think. People are "self-deprecating" toward gear that they find perfectly serviceable, almost like they are ashamed of it, and to me, being ashamed requires a personal feeling of improper behavior and a feeling of a need to "make it right."  If your gear does what _you_ want it to do, and _you_ like it, be it a 20.00US combo or 10,000.00US of top-of-the-line "maker’s art" gear, it is "good" for/to you – there is no way to argue with that, period, EOD.  There is nothing wrong with asking the experiences of others when a purchase is contemplated, especially when an item might have unknown property(s) not readily inspected (For example, mail-order waders), but IMO, if you feel it to be "good," then it is, and if you think it "bad" then it is.   Not to be harsh, but IMO, this type of question smacks more of "validate my choice" rather than "help me decide."  If you are going to let others tell you what to think, just give someone your budget and ask them to get what _they_ want.  I would venture that this will almost never turn out well, regardless of the people involved or the budget.   As to things like flies, and again, not to be harsh, but we are talking about an item of such importance and of such little cost, overall, that if you can’t afford to try a few, you can’t afford the sport of FF’ing.  I realize that sounds contradictory with the above, but it is simple math – we can’t possibly be talking about more than 5-10.00US to try several, and while 10.00US is much more to some than others, if 10.00US is too much money to spend, period, you really shouldn’t be out "sporting."  Even if you _need_ the fish to eat, you are using the wrong method in FF’ing.  Therefore, I’m going to base my answer on the given that a few dollars are (safely) available.  Buy a couple/few, and if they work for you, the other factor being equal, then they are good – it really is that simple.  The other factor is the "lifespan" – if the math says the cheaper fly lasts  X fish, and the expensive one lasts Y fish, simple math will indicate the choice. HOWEVER, if you do catch a fish who complains about your gear, he’s mine – I have dibsies (and a roadshow ready)… TC, R

Response:

All very true Willi. Some shop flies have enough materials in them to dress three or more flies.  It is a common tendency for beginners  to apply too

Like Frank (except with Elmer’s , not superglue)I know I used too much material.  Hackle is a good example.  I selected the right size hackle from the saddle by measuring (good practice) but wound hackle until I had a nice tip left to tie down and clip off (bad practice).  Looking at photos of the fly I was tying I found many different approaches to the pattern.  Perhaps, only experience can get me to the right materials mix.  My experience with imported flys is much what Mike describes, more material than most local tyers use.  I also found quality inconsistant.  I have had some of these flys (English made) come apart on the first cast.  African made flys seem to be the worst, wrong materials, poorly tied.  Some of the drys I tried could not float with any amount of floatant. — Wayne To Fish is Human….To Release Divine!

Response:

Some fella told me using flies made in China or India would save me a big money. Any experience with such stuffs? I believe the expensive must has its reason to be expensive. Right?

I buy my flies from local fly shops.  Shop #1, a relatively high-end place, sells them for $1.65 each, $17.95/dozen.  Shop #2, a relatively low-end shop, sells them for $0.99 each or $9.99/dozen.  I’ve recently moved to this area and haven’t bought flies yet for every hatch of the year.  Last August, when the Trico’s were hatching, I bought several Trico patterns from both shops. It is possible that Chinese- or Indian-tied flies would be priced lower, but quality would be an unknown.  The only way to find out would be to buy some and fish them–if they’re a good deal, order more. Tom G tying your own is cheaper on a per fly basis, but you’ll end up with 100 times the number of flies…

Response:

It depends on why they are cheap.  If the price is a result of the cheaper labour in the country of origin, they may be comparable, or indeed in some cases even better than more expensive flies. If inferior materials, hooks, etc. have been used, or badly trained dressers have produced them, then they will be inferior. The only way to find out if any of the above applies, is to buy some and see.  Also, buying one lot of flies from China or India is not sufficient grounds for offering opinions on the relative quality of others from those countries. In many cases commodities which are considerably cheaper than others are of inferior quality. This is however not always so. The price of many goods is completely independent of any perceived quality, or otherwise, and is not a suitable criteria for determining it. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some fella told me using flies made in China or India would save me a big money. Any experience with such stuffs? I believe the expensive must has its reason to be expensive. Right?

Response:

I’ve tried flies from just about everywhere. Domestic, China, Taiwan, Europe, etc. I can’t tell any difference in them. I like to sautee them in butter and garlic but i’ve also tried them with SOS and IMHO it really doesn’t make any diiference where the country of origin was. I haven’t found that the imported ones are any cheaper though.

Response:

Some fella told me using flies made in China or India would save me a big money. Any experience with such stuffs? I believe the expensive must has its reason to be expensive. Right?

Like others have indicated, there is a wide range of quality out there. There are reasonably good quality flies that are imported from places like India and China. In fact, most flies sold in the U.S. are imported. This just makes sense.  The biggest "cost" in the construction of a fly is the labor and labor in the U.S. is relatively expensive. Some importers, like Umqua ?, have well trained tiers and fairly high quality standards. Others import junk. This is something that it is difficult for a beginner to evaluate. Although I tie my own, whenever I’m in a shop that sells flies, I like to peruse the offerings looking for new ideas and also looking at how the shops standard patterns are tied. It’s interesting to me (and also valuable for someone who ties) how much these standard patterns can differ. Different tiers use different materials and different quality of materials even on "standard" patterns but what is more interesting to me are the various different "styles" that each tier has. Even using the exact same materials, if you sit down 50 tiers and have each of them tie the same pattern, each will be different and most tiers would be able to pick out the fly he tied from the others. Although I don’t believe there is ONE correct way to tie even a "standard" pattern, IMO, most flies sold tend to be over dressed. This makes for a "pretty" fly, but one that, I feel, is usually less effective. This applies to all the flies offered in my area except for one shop. This shop buys from a VERY talented local tier who can mass produce, what I consider to be, extremely high quality flies. They get $2.50 per fly although the other shops in the area sell their flies from $.95 to $1.50. I sometimes buy specific flies from this shop that I especially like the look of, to use as a model and to analyze how the tier achieved this look. Willi

Response:

Some fella told me using flies made in China or India would save me a big money. Any experience with such stuffs? I believe the expensive must has its reason to be expensive. Right?

Response:

Cheap stuffs absorbs turkey fat and gets soggy before the gibblets are ready. Thems stuffs have gibblets in ‘em someo tha times but can’t rely onit. Deep fried turkey is bests when the stuffs is cooked in a pot on tha stove.  Somertimes youse can get stovetoper stuffs mix and avoid the turkey altogether. — Wayne To Fish is Human….To Release Divine!

Response:

You get what you pay for.

Response:

Some of the flies made overseas are excellent, others are abominations and would not even make it to a K-Mart blister pack.  The quality of these flies varies in direct proportion to quality of the materials and the training and quality control of the manufactury.  I’ve seen flies that Mustad has made in the Philipines and I wouldn’t fish with them. They are too good.  They should be mounted and used as examples of how to build a fly.    My only suggestion is to buy a half a dozen flies from a manufacturer and test them out.  Inspect them under a magnifying glass, checking for the wraps and proportions, drop them in a pan of water for a half and hour and then give them a few casts in the yard.  If they seem to hold together and all checks out, you can probably, safely, buy more.  Caveat emptor.  I’ve seen flies made with water-soluable glues and dyes.    One of my favorite sources of flies in bulk is the UK.  There is a cottage industry there that ties for profit.  The prices are dirt cheap and the flies are normally way above average quality. Still, one must always use the first test explained above even when buying from a "quality" dealer.  Buy a magazine like "Flyfishing and Flytying" from the UK at one of these big bookstores.  Check the classifieds.  Its well worth the price for a long term fly buying solution short of making your own (which, as we all know is the cheapest way to get flies;-).  Also, peruse your local fly shops.  Quite often they have good flies at reasonable prices.                 Frank Reid Some fella told me using flies made in China or India would save me a big money. Any experience with such stuffs? I believe the expensive must has its reason to be expensive. Right?

Response:

Question:

If a person were to find themselves in Puerto Vallarta for a week, how, and where would one go about arranging to fly fish?  What equipment would you be able (or should) take with you?  What does a charter cost?  etc. Thanks, Steve

Response:

I’d take a 10 or 9 wt.  Prefer at 10.  Take a sinking line and a floater and a basket.  Take flies surf fishermen use in california and big poppers.  You may not be able to find an experienced fly guide but you can catch fish. Possibilities should include Roosters, and Dorado,  Robalo (Snook),  Corvina (like a Red but in the surf and tricker.)  You may have to guide the guide but you should be able to find a Panga and a guia who can find fish.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If a person were to find themselves in Puerto Vallarta for a week, how, and where would one go about arranging to fly fish?  What equipment would you be able (or should) take with you?  What does a charter cost?  etc. Thanks, Steve

Response:

MR  Neeley  There are a number of charter boats at PV . You  will truely be in a fishing paradise . PLEASE take advantage of every moment .,  I have seen little kids go out on dugout like  canoes and catch 20 pound dolphin , on hand lines . The other pratice it for the locals to go out in their long boats with nets streches inbetween the boats . they can   vacumm a bay in a matter of hours . the bottom there is rocky , with the shore line with small pebbles . and some sand thrown in too . In addition to a fly rod i would bring a nice  light tackle spin outfit …and a good  a medium action bait reel.. i use the penn 965 . For Fly fishing i would  go to a  a surfing hot spot north of town called Punta de Mita .  there is a little bay right at the point . .  Wade out like 100 yards , on the rocky  bottom , and climb on top on one of the many bolders in the surf . In the incoming tide you can cast 360 degrees above and out of the water . It is unlimited what you can catch there in about 4 feet of water , but it includes , rock bass , little tuna , dolphin , and tarpon . I have seen sharks there also . The wave will come in and the water will be 6 feet deep , and as it passes  the water level will drop 2 feet. I have had the most luck in a incoming tide . In fact it is like a light switch .  Plug fishing is really great too .I like the small two gang  hook mirrorlures . The bottom is rocky , you have to have a very tough leader . Also , it is a long walk out , be sure to talk everything you need , cause it takes a while to walk back inshore .  Also just north of town , where  the ferry docks are , there is a great jetty , which is good for typical jetty fishig .   The boats there are , or have been quite old , all wood , look like they were made in the 30’s . BUT  this is slowly getting better. But their fishing gear on the boat is all very heavy duty . They are great guys , and will fish the way you want if you want to tease a fish and cast a fly at it . The marlin are only a few miles off shore .  This is a paradise , research it , and make the most out of your trip . Hale Savannah

Response:

Question:

I’m not the master chemist, but it seems to me that this would be difficult.  The stuff you use to keep your hands warm is something like cayenne pepper, and it works by stimulation the flow of blood.

Many of the hand warmers available today are actually little packets of iron filings, common salt, and activated charcoal (and perhaps some secret ingredient, "X") which work by an exothermic high speed oxidation of the iron.  In other words, they really do produce a significant amount of heat…..it isn’t merely a matter of fooling the nerves in your fingers or toes. As for something that reacts with water, magnesium powder would do that.

Not sure about this one.  I used to mess around with magnesium as a kid and never saw any kind of reaction to water (other than noting that even large quantities of snow will not extinguish the stuff once ignited!). Sodium, on the other hand, reacts spectacularly when it gets wet.  Do NOT try this one at home boys and girls! Wolfgang

Response:

If you don

Question:

Two more: 1.  This is not the USenet.  Through the magic of modern technology, people from all over the world can and do post.  Remember this, and try to respect it.  Likely as not, your understanding of French, German, Dutch, whatever is likely not as good as their understanding of English, and in many cases, YOUR English is not as good as their English. 2.  Spell-flame at your own risk.  Yes, we all do it sometimes.  Many drink too much and neither is liable to result in a good feeling. I have found that when I use a "mean" spellflame, I usually spell "cat" with a "k", "moron" with an "e" and spell "spell" with either 1 or 3 "L"s. Picky grammar flames usually come out, "Didt you learn nothing in skool?", but YMMV.  This is not to say a good-natured ribbing re: a humorous tendency to er, lapse is bad, just be careful.  Personally, I don’t like spellcheckers, but again, YMMV. TC, R

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This "guide" is strictly my opinion, and I’m sure comments will be made. As far as I’m concerned, newbies and their appropriate comments are just as welcome as anyone else’s… You are more than welcome on ROFF insofar in that being a "newbie" doesn’t make you unwelcome.  What makes you unwelcome is stepping on your dick as you "walk" in.  I hope this, with additions, serves as a newbie’s guide to ROFF, but it is not a FAQ. <_excellent newbie advise, (and good advise for all posters), snipped Great post; I’m keeping it for future reference.  Here’s a very old newbie usenet lyric.  It’s been around since at least the late 80’s.  Every couple of years I have occasion to post it again.  Enjoy! The Newbie’s Song (Based on the Major General’s song from "The Pirates of Penzance", Gilbert & Sullivan).

Tee Heeeeeeee….yup, purdy damn funny…… TC, R Cheers, and tight lines,

CLINK, thank ya, and back at ya… -Mark

This bring to mind something I forgot.  An addition to my original post: I don’t care WHAT the LookOut Distress manual says, HTML and MIME are not welcome on much of USENET…

Response:

This "guide" is strictly my opinion, and I’m sure comments will be made. As far as I’m concerned, newbies and their appropriate comments are just as welcome as anyone else’s… You are more than welcome on ROFF insofar in that being a "newbie" doesn’t make you unwelcome.  What makes you unwelcome is stepping on your dick as you "walk" in.  I hope this, with additions, serves as a newbie’s guide to ROFF, but it is not a FAQ.

<_excellent newbie advise, (and good advise for all posters), snipped Great post; I’m keeping it for future reference.  Here’s a very old newbie usenet lyric.  It’s been around since at least the late 80’s.  Every couple of years I have occasion to post it again.  Enjoy! The Newbie’s Song (Based on the Major General’s song from "The Pirates of Penzance", Gilbert & Sullivan). I am the very model of a Usenet individual, I’ve information meaningless and ultimately trivial, I know the basic elements of alien biology, And all the hidden secrets of the Church of Scientology, I’ve seen "The Wrath of Khan" and every Star Trek film that followed it, I moan about my Servicecard and how the cash till swallowed it, About the laws on handguns I am sending off a counterblast, With many cheerful facts about the way you can MAKE MONEY FAST! ALL:       With many cheerful facts, etc. I’ll tell you why the Japanese are taking over Panama, And why the USA is still a better place than Canada, In short, in matters meaningless and ultimately trivial, I am the very model of a Usenet individual. ALL:    In short, in matters meaningless and ultimately trivial,           He is the very model of a Usenet individual. I post in alt.revisionism lies about the Holocaust, I cut my .sig to twenty lines, I didn’t want to, I was forced, I really can’t believe the "Good Times" virus to be mythical, And Clinton’s raising taxes which is, frankly, bloody typical, I’ve upset several people on alt.flame, I really don’t know how, And sent a thousand business cards to Mr. and Mrs. Shergold now, I have a very poor grip of political geography, And absolutely no involvement (yet!) in child poronography, ALL:      And absolutely no involement, etc. I’ve paid two-fifty dollars for the Nieman-Marcus recipe, And told the Spanish tourist’s tale about the toothbrush pessary, In short, in matters meaningless and ultimately trivial, I am the very model of a Usenet individual. ALL:    In short, in matters meaningless and ultimately trivial,           He is the very model of a Usenet individual. In fact, when I know what is meant by "binary" and "FTP", When I know how to decode porno JPEGs from a .uue, When I can handle HTML, Telnet, mail and IRC, And when I know the words initialised to form "http", When I have learnt what topics are acceptable in talk.bizarre, When I know more of Usenet than the tailpipe of a motor-car,                - In short, when I’ve a smattering of elementary netiquette, You’ll say a better individual has never surfed the Net. ALL:      You’ll say a better individual, etc. For my technical experience, although I claim to know it all Could barely serve to run the installation disk from AOL; But still, in matters meaningless and ultimately trivial, I am the very model of a Usenet individual. ALL:    But still, in matters meaningless and ultimately trivial,           He is the very model of a Usenet individual. Cheers, and tight lines, -Mark

Response:

To bad this post can’t be the first message anyone gets when they – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This "guide" is strictly my opinion, and I’m sure comments will be made. As far as I’m concerned, newbies and their appropriate comments are just as welcome as anyone else’s… You are more than welcome on ROFF insofar in that being a "newbie" doesn’t make you unwelcome.  What makes you unwelcome is stepping on your dick as you "walk" in.  I hope this, with additions, serves as a newbie’s guide to ROFF, but it is not a FAQ. 1.  Show some level of brain activity: BAD post:  "I live near water.  What do I need?" Good Post: "I live near the xxxxxx River in xxxxxx, xx.  It contains xxxxxxx.  I’d like to spend around xxx.xx.  Any suggestions?"  If you intend on staying awhile, give a short bio, perhaps.  You don’t have to tell the world intimate details, but the basics are nice. 2.  Show a high level of good manners: BP:  "You morons need to just discuss fishing, dammit" (Likely answer: "Piss off, you rude newbie") GP:  "I noticed there seems to be a high level of non-fishing threads. Is this normal?" (Likely answer:  "<G  Yep.  If friends might discuss it while going to fish, fishing, after fishing, or going home from fishing, it will likely get discussed on ROFF.  And it will almost certainly stay that way.") 3.  NEVER be afraid to ask a question, considering the above and below. BP:  "I saw a great pattern for my water in a shop 500 miles away, but I was too cheap to spend 1.00 on it.  It was called a blue or maybe a green something or another.  Can any of you so-called experts tell how to tie it, and NOW, dammit." GP:  "I screwed up.  I saw a pattern that I think would be good on my water, and didn’t buy it.  I fish for xxxxx at xxxxxx, and this fly had, best as I remember, xxxxx body, xxxxx tail, etc.  Does this click with anyone?  Any help appreciated." 4.  This isn’t "the Internet," it is USENET, and, as far as you’re concerned, nobody "runs" it.  Trying to run it by issuing "directives" to ROFFians shows how little you know about it.  Further, while suggestions are generally welcome or at least tolerated, orders, edicts, and commands are generally met with, er, scorn, especially from "WebTV’ers" and unknown "aol’ers." BP:  "You people need to just discuss fly-fishing.  Joe Blow called me a name and I’m reporting him.  What you people need is a moderator, and I am the one you need.  Do it my way, or else." GP:  "I can’t take it, I’m leaving." 5.  If you want to dish it out, be ready to take it, and be careful here.  ROFF is full of smart people with a wide body of knowledge, and you will regret expecting to "win." BP:  "fuk ewe, you stoopid as i knew moore abut fishin whenn i was borned the n youll everr no.  quit tesing me because im a geenis and no it all.  as shakespeer said, i dont wrassel all day on st crispys battlefield, so look out when you mess with me."   GP:  "Your momma wears combat boots…" 6.  Use care with "profanity."  While there are no (well, none identified) swooning maidens with virgin ears who will be shocked, directed profanity will likely not get a good response.  A _suggested_ rule of thumb, if the word "you" is involved, don’t do it… BP:  "Fuck you," "You asshole," "You prick," etc. GP:  "I disagree," "WHAT?!," "You gotta be kidding," A note: I realize this seems to border on "rules", but it just seems to be right.  I can’t explain it, and welcome any comments, but I still offer it as my opinion.  Also, never use the word "retarded" in describing someone or their ideas.  I can promise that will get you enemies you REALLY don’t want.  In fact, I suggest you learn to "set back" any timing adjustments you need to make. 7.  No question, with enough info to answer, and politely asked, is inapproriate. 8.  There are no rules. 9.  Try to use common sense.  We all slip up, but if you have NONE, and can’t rent, borrow, or steal some, ROFF might not be your place. 10.  Yes, it HAS been discussed before, but so what?  There is are sites, Deja News, www.deja.com, amongst others, that archives posts. Sometimes, it may be helpful to turn there first.  This might get you get needed info "right now." 11.  PETA sucks, but if you practice C and R, that will be respected, as long as you respect those who C and E.  IMO, C and K, if all you do is kill, is wrong (unless control is needed for a sound reason), but C and E is just the food chain in action. 12.  The "13th Floor" of ROFF. 13.  IMO, blatant, non-participating SPAMMERS are fair game for what they get, but use care in blasting them, and not offending others. 14.  Dive on in, welcome aboard. HTH? R

Response:

This "guide" is strictly my opinion, and I’m sure comments will be made. As far as I’m concerned, newbies and their appropriate comments are just as welcome as anyone else’s… You are more than welcome on ROFF insofar in that being a "newbie" doesn’t make you unwelcome.  What makes you unwelcome is stepping on your dick as you "walk" in.  I hope this, with additions, serves as a newbie’s guide to ROFF, but it is not a FAQ. 1.  Show some level of brain activity: BAD post:  "I live near water.  What do I need?" Good Post: "I live near the xxxxxx River in xxxxxx, xx.  It contains xxxxxxx.  I’d like to spend around xxx.xx.  Any suggestions?"  If you intend on staying awhile, give a short bio, perhaps.  You don’t have to tell the world intimate details, but the basics are nice. 2.  Show a high level of good manners: BP:  "You morons need to just discuss fishing, dammit" (Likely answer: "Piss off, you rude newbie") GP:  "I noticed there seems to be a high level of non-fishing threads. Is this normal?" (Likely answer:  "<G  Yep.  If friends might discuss it while going to fish, fishing, after fishing, or going home from fishing, it will likely get discussed on ROFF.  And it will almost certainly stay that way.") 3.  NEVER be afraid to ask a question, considering the above and below. BP:  "I saw a great pattern for my water in a shop 500 miles away, but I was too cheap to spend 1.00 on it.  It was called a blue or maybe a green something or another.  Can any of you so-called experts tell how to tie it, and NOW, dammit." GP:  "I screwed up.  I saw a pattern that I think would be good on my water, and didn’t buy it.  I fish for xxxxx at xxxxxx, and this fly had, best as I remember, xxxxx body, xxxxx tail, etc.  Does this click with anyone?  Any help appreciated." 4.  This isn’t "the Internet," it is USENET, and, as far as you’re concerned, nobody "runs" it.  Trying to run it by issuing "directives" to ROFFians shows how little you know about it.  Further, while suggestions are generally welcome or at least tolerated, orders, edicts, and commands are generally met with, er, scorn, especially from "WebTV’ers" and unknown "aol’ers." BP:  "You people need to just discuss fly-fishing.  Joe Blow called me a name and I’m reporting him.  What you people need is a moderator, and I am the one you need.  Do it my way, or else." GP:  "I can’t take it, I’m leaving." 5.  If you want to dish it out, be ready to take it, and be careful here.  ROFF is full of smart people with a wide body of knowledge, and you will regret expecting to "win." BP:  "fuk ewe, you stoopid as i knew moore abut fishin whenn i was borned the n youll everr no.  quit tesing me because im a geenis and no it all.  as shakespeer said, i dont wrassel all day on st crispys battlefield, so look out when you mess with me."   GP:  "Your momma wears combat boots…" 6.  Use care with "profanity."  While there are no (well, none identified) swooning maidens with virgin ears who will be shocked, directed profanity will likely not get a good response.  A _suggested_ rule of thumb, if the word "you" is involved, don’t do it… BP:  "Fuck you," "You asshole," "You prick," etc. GP:  "I disagree," "WHAT?!," "You gotta be kidding," A note: I realize this seems to border on "rules", but it just seems to be right.  I can’t explain it, and welcome any comments, but I still offer it as my opinion.  Also, never use the word "retarded" in describing someone or their ideas.  I can promise that will get you enemies you REALLY don’t want.  In fact, I suggest you learn to "set back" any timing adjustments you need to make. 7.  No question, with enough info to answer, and politely asked, is inapproriate. 8.  There are no rules. 9.  Try to use common sense.  We all slip up, but if you have NONE, and can’t rent, borrow, or steal some, ROFF might not be your place. 10.  Yes, it HAS been discussed before, but so what?  There is are sites, Deja News, www.deja.com, amongst others, that archives posts. Sometimes, it may be helpful to turn there first.  This might get you get needed info "right now." 11.  PETA sucks, but if you practice C and R, that will be respected, as long as you respect those who C and E.  IMO, C and K, if all you do is kill, is wrong (unless control is needed for a sound reason), but C and E is just the food chain in action. 12.  The "13th Floor" of ROFF. 13.  IMO, blatant, non-participating SPAMMERS are fair game for what they get, but use care in blasting them, and not offending others. 14.  Dive on in, welcome aboard. HTH? R

Response:

Question:

Some stamps came out a while ago featuring flies. Anyone know where I cn get them? Ari

Response:

Some stamps came out a while ago featuring flies. Anyone know where I cn get them?

Um……U.S Post Office?

Response:

I have a first day issue of these stamps.  They were released on May 31, 1991 by the US post office. If you live in the US, look in your local phone book for a stamp collector store.  They will probably have it.  I first day issue will probably cost about $10, a strip about $5.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some stamps came out a while ago featuring flies. Anyone know where I cn get them? Ari

Response:

Some stamps came out a while ago featuring flies. Anyone know where I can get them?

I don’t know if they are still available in the Post Office or not — occasionally I see someone offer a booklet of them on eBay at auction. Fleetwood is still selling First Day Covers and Postcards so you can get a description of the stamps by going to their web site and searching for "fishing flies" http://www.unicover.com/unisearch.htm? At the time of issue the Post Office also put out a framed print of a fly fisherman with all five stamps included.  I have one around here somewhere but couldn’t find it to provide a better description. I’m not a stamp collector myself but am trying to round up copies of all the first day stuff for the Largemouth Bass stamp. Have a great weekend, — Clyde Drury Black Bass Book Collector http://members.aol.com/BassBks/index.html

Response:

Question:

Was wondering if anyone heard about a CD rom for Saltwater fly tying  that was coming out. I thought I heard the company that makes  Tying flies for trout Cd is making a Saltwater version.                                            appreciate any info,                                              BillSorry can’t help Bill, but while on sorta the same subject…

 Could someone advise on what might be available on CD-ROM with a fly-fishing flavor. I have heard of some, but suggestions are always welcome. Jay

Response:

A new CD "Tying Flies for Saltwater" is being introduced at the Denver "Fly Tackle Dealers" trade show later this week. See also:

Response:

Question:

I went with the Simms Gore-Tex Micro Fibers.   They’re expensive,  but super comfortable.   I also use them for backpacking with a pair of Tevas.

Response:

I just bought the new Orvis No-Sweat waders and couldn’t be happier.  They are super comfortable and you really don’t sweat.  Very lightweight also, they just fold up and are carried in a little bag that they come with. You can’t beat the guarantee either.  One year and if your waders have a hole for any reason, Orvis will replace them free.  Nobody else offers this.

Response:

Wondering if anyone could shed light on good choices for light weight waders. Mainly backpack in the Sierra’s to fishing holes/streams, so need waders that are very light yet durable. Any ideas on shoes? Thought of Teva sandles but those are heavy. Any info appreciated ! John

Just got Orvis stocking hippers and (so far) they’ve been ok (stay away from Fly Tech or other cheap brands).  I use Nike (or similar brand) Aquasocks which are light weight and very functional. hope this helps;  let me know if you hit agood spot in the Sierras–I go up often and am always looking for new places– aaron

Response:

Wondering if anyone could shed light on good choices for light weight waders. Mainly backpack in the Sierra’s to fishing holes/streams, so need waders that are very light yet durable. Any ideas on shoes? Thought of Teva sandles but those are heavy. Any info appreciated ! John

You might not need any for the small streams.  If you think you do I would William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

Response:

After five years of heavy fising I have just retired the lightweight Orvis stocking foot waders.  With some care, ie look out for thorns, branches in the woods, I have gotten a good five years of use.           Also the canvas boots from LLBeans is quite good.  Cheaper than Orvis too.  They cost about $50.  The orvis waders and hippers wore very well.  I am still using the hippers.  Good luck, FHK

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wondering if anyone could shed light on good choices for light weight waders. Mainly backpack in the Sierra’s to fishing holes/streams, so need waders that are very light yet durable. Any ideas on shoes? Thought of Teva sandles but those are heavy. Any info appreciated ! John You might not need any for the small streams.  If you think you do I would William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

William, I am not Bob, am using his browser, he told me to say this because he is embaressed by my question, however,  I am new to this sport. and I want to purchase a good all around pair of waders. What do you recommend.  I see many many different brands.  I don’t want to spend a a lot, but don’t want to get wet either or buy a new pair next year when I learn more.  Your recommendations are appreciated!!!   Thanks Phyllis

Response:

: Wondering if anyone could shed light on good choices for light weight : waders. Mainly backpack in the Sierra’s to fishing holes/streams, so need : waders that are very light yet durable. Red Ball Supplex waders- superlight and tough. And don’t forget a patch kit –mike

Response:

Wondering if anyone could shed light on good choices for light weight waders. Mainly backpack in the Sierra’s to fishing holes/streams, so need waders that are very light yet durable. Any ideas on shoes? Thought of Teva sandles but those are heavy. Any info appreciated ! John

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -ubject:        Re: How do you spline a 4 piece rod? Huskers writes: I have never built a 4 piece rod before.  How do you spline it? Each Piece individually, two 2-piece sections or what?  The blanks in the mail so… Help! Well, consider that you cast the entire rod, not the individual sections.  Spine the entire blank, all put together. Very bad advice. You can end up with a very odd handling rod. The tip section spline and mid-section splines should be determined and the butt section, if possible, also. Buy a book on custom rod building to learn the complete procedure for splining. Del Clemens, L.A. Garcia or Skip Morris all have written good rod building books. The general method is to bend a section against a table and rotate the section at the same time. There should be two bumps or jumps during the rotation, the larger jump locates the spline. A short butt section spline might be hard to detect. Mark each section’s spline position for use during guide placement. A fly rod  built with the guides located 180 degrees from the spline. Each section’s spline will line up with the other splines when you assemble the completed rod. Don Burns IHMO, use at your own risk, etc.    

I usually locate the spline on each section of a 4 pc., then assemble it into 2 pcs and re-check. Haven’t had one move yet…

Response:

A new web site has info on how to spline a rod. URL:       http://fishdoc.com/ Also has guide spacing for rods, looks like Sage guide spacing. Don Burns P.S. For those of you who keep asking me about why "Spin4trout", AOL for some reason doesn’t allow screen-names to start with the word "FLY". G.O.K!!!  Tried "trout"+xxx – no luck. Didn’t like troutxyz, trout069 or troutvjfvfj and other unused names. After 30 minutes of trying to get a name somehow related to flyfishing I gave up. Since I’ve used my spinning gear with my dad, fishing for lake trout since the 1960’s, I came up with "spin4trout".  Sorry guys. Now if I could find a cheap Ross C-1 or Lamson 1.0,  I might be willing to turn in my spinning rods. <G

Response:

 I agree with the splining advise but would add one thing.  I use a weight on a piece of monofillement with a loop on the end. This I pass over the thin end of the rod piece very loosely. Then turn the section on a table as mentioned before. You can watch the weight dip. Use different size weights for each section. On the 3 weight I I built I use about 1 oz for the tip section, but about 2 lbs for the butt section.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -ubject:     Re: How do you spline a 4 piece rod? Huskers writes: I have never built a 4 piece rod before.  How do you spline it? Each Piece individually, two 2-piece sections or what?  The blanks in the mail so… Help! Well, consider that you cast the entire rod, not the individual sections.  Spine the entire blank, all put together.

Very bad advice. You can end up with a very odd handling rod. The tip section spline and mid-section splines should be determined and the butt section, if possible, also. Buy a book on custom rod building to learn the complete procedure for splining. Del Clemens, L.A. Garcia or Skip Morris all have written good rod building books. The general method is to bend a section against a table and rotate the section at the same time. There should be two bumps or jumps during the rotation, the larger jump locates the spline. A short butt section spline might be hard to detect. Mark each section’s spline position for use during guide placement. A fly rod  built with the guides located 180 degrees from the spline. Each section’s spline will line up with the other splines when you assemble the completed rod. Don Burns IHMO, use at your own risk, etc.    

Response: