Question:

Has anyone had the chance to use these rods before?  I saw them at the Flyfishing Retailers Expo in Saltlake City and was quite impressed with them.  They seem really good looking, made in Florida by a new company. Components and quality seems to belie the fact that they are only priced around $100-200!  I’m going to get one to try out and was wondering if anyone had any experience with them.  I’m not endorsing or promoting them or am anyway associated with them.  Enuf said! Before you buy.

Response:

They seem really good looking, made in Florida by a new company. Components and quality seems to belie the fact that they are only priced around $100-200!  I’m going to get one to try out and was wondering if anyone had any experience with them.  I’m not endorsing or promoting them or am anyway associated with them.

To answer your question I have not heard of them, but now I have a question. Do you have a contact for the company or the ownership of this company, I have heard that len codella’s son was involved in a new graphite rod co. Len used to be with T&T who once had a line of rods called the Heritage series which they dropped, I think about the time Len left. If this is Len’s son’s company and if they are based on the old Heritage action I’m gonna have to buy a few. Thanks Wayne Knight (remove nospam to respond via mail) Expert in the creation of  wind knots and tailing loops.

Response:

A member of my TU chapter has been selling those Heritage rods.  I don’t know much about where they’re from (maybe Korean blanks?) but I liked the feel of them when we had a chance to try them out last spring.  We bought a bunch of them to replace the aging Cortlands we use in our flycasting classes – very good value.  We’re also going to raffle off a couple this year for fundraisers. –Stan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone had the chance to use these rods before?  I saw them at the Flyfishing Retailers Expo in Saltlake City and was quite impressed with them.  They seem really good looking, made in Florida by a new company. Components and quality seems to belie the fact that they are only priced around $100-200!  I’m going to get one to try out and was wondering if anyone had any experience with them.  I’m not endorsing or promoting them or am anyway associated with them.  Enuf said!

Response:

Cool! I will be calling them about buying a few.  I will keep you all updated.  This much I was told when I talked to them at the convention, they are somehow in league with Teton/Tioga folks, and that they roll their own blanks and are based in Florida.  They have only apparently been in business for 9 months and are currently trying to buuld up an inventory.  Presently they are unable to keep up with demand..or so I’ve been told. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A member of my TU chapter has been selling those Heritage rods.  I don’t know much about where they’re from (maybe Korean blanks?) but I liked the feel of them when we had a chance to try them out last spring.  We bought a bunch of them to replace the aging Cortlands we use in our flycasting classes – very good value.  We’re also going to raffle off a couple this year for fundraisers. –Stan Has anyone had the chance to use these rods before?  I saw them at the Flyfishing Retailers Expo in Saltlake City and was quite impressed with them.  They seem really good looking, made in Florida by a new company. Components and quality seems to belie the fact that they are only priced around $100-200!  I’m going to get one to try out and was wondering if anyone had any experience with them.  I’m not endorsing or promoting them or am anyway associated with them.  Enuf said!

Before you buy.

Response:

I’m interested in learning more. Do you have a contact, telephone #, City? Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cool! I will be calling them about buying a few.  I will keep you all updated.  This much I was told when I talked to them at the convention, they are somehow in league with Teton/Tioga folks, and that they roll their own blanks and are based in Florida.  They have only apparently been in business for 9 months and are currently trying to buuld up an inventory.  Presently they are unable to keep up with demand..or so I’ve been told. A member of my TU chapter has been selling those Heritage rods.  I don’t know much about where they’re from (maybe Korean blanks?) but I liked the feel of them when we had a chance to try them out last spring.  We bought a bunch of them to replace the aging Cortlands we use in our flycasting classes – very good value.  We’re also going to raffle off a couple this year for fundraisers. –Stan Has anyone had the chance to use these rods before?  I saw them at the Flyfishing Retailers Expo in Saltlake City and was quite impressed with them.  They seem really good looking, made in Florida by a new company. Components and quality seems to belie the fact that they are only priced around $100-200!  I’m going to get one to try out and was wondering if anyone had any experience with them.  I’m not endorsing or promoting them or am anyway associated with them.  Enuf said! Before you buy.

Response:

Well, i just spoke to Phil who was the older gentleman I met at the show.  He said that they are at the moment unable to keep up with the orders and it’ll be at least two mths before he’s caught up.  They can only make about 500 rods a week at the moment.  He is going to try to get me a 6wt and an 8 wt to test out.  They also have spey rods and their travel rods won’t be available till next year. I did manage to get more info about the rods: They don’t have the warranties that Redington has, nor do they come with fancy tubes and cases.  Most of the rods are black on black, stainless SIC stripping guides, stainless snake guides, aluminum reel seats on the saltwater models, wood on the others.  Nice finish on the rods in my opinion. Phil also said that for those of you who are interested, your best bet is to contact your nearest Teton/Tioga dealer abt the rods. I’ll let you all know when I get the rods. Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

Hi Tim.  if it hurts you are doing it wrong. Take a lesson. You should be able to cast at least sixty feet with relative ease using the correct technique. If you can not do so, take a lesson from a pro. It is rarely necessary to cast sixty feet as it happens, but if it gives you peace of mind to be capable of doing so, then as I said, take a lesson. You will not regret it.

I can cast 60 feet, but when I’m on a float tube in a pond the fish always seem to be rising 65 feet away. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Hi Tim, You might want to try it with a good weight forward floating line. I would try to get some help. Are there any casting classes availaby near you?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was watching a video on fly fishing the other day and the guy in the video seemed to be able to cast fairly long distances with hardly any effort at all. I am getting better at casting but I seem to need to put a little more force into my cast than what I have seen in most video’s.  I was wondering what weight rod and line are these guys normally using in these video’s?  I have a Cabela’s Sweetwater 6/7 weight rod and use 6 weight WF floating line on it.  I need to really put some power into my casts to get it to reach out even say 20 – 25 ft. I’m trying to keep my wrist firm and elbow tight to my body and using abrupt stops at 11:00 and 1:00 then follow through when letting the fly go to the target so I think I’m doing it right.  Fairly tight loops and all, but something just doesn’t seem right when I see the ease with which some of these guys can cast. Would it make sense for me to try a 7 weight line? BTW it’s not that I really mind the the way I’m casting but I have a pinched nerve in my neck and shoulder (from too many years of competitve volleyball) and after a few hours of casting I start to get a little sore. thanks, Tim Sheehan

Response:

Hi Tim, You might want to try it with a good weight forward floating line. I would try to get some help. Are there any casting classes availaby near you?

Bill, I am using Cortland WF6 Floating line (can’t remember the number…either 333 or 444) isn’t this a decent quality line? I am looking into getting some lessons (I’ve been workin’ on a veteran ROFFer for some casting tips, but havn’t been able to hook up yet…hint, hint, Mark Tim

Response:

Your time is coming Tim Mark Faulkner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Tim, You might want to try it with a good weight forward floating line. I would try to get some help. Are there any casting classes availaby near you? Bill, I am using Cortland WF6 Floating line (can’t remember the number…either 333 or 444) isn’t this a decent quality line? I am looking into getting some lessons (I’ve been workin’ on a veteran ROFFer for some casting tips, but havn’t been able to hook up yet…hint, hint, Mark Tim

Response:

Thanks for the reply Tony! I actually did go to the doctor last week because the numbness was getting much worse in my right arm and fingers.  The doc sent me for a spine xray (I’m still waiting for the results) and prescribed some muscle relaxers and NSAIDs.

Get an MRI. X-ray doesn’t show damage to soft tissue. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Hi Tim,     Definitely try the 7wt. If you’re the same guy from Altoona, give me a mail, and maybe we can get together. I live in State College and am a former Orvis instructor. I love to teach casting. Bruce

Good to have another State College roffian around. Mark Faulkner

Response:

Don’t worry so much about distance.  Unless you are fishing the ocean, distance is highly overrated.  Relax, master your cast at shorter distances and eventually, with practice, it’ll all come together. thanks for the tip Ken, and thanks to all that responded to this post with helful advice!! I even got an offer of a free booklet and some casting lessons from another…ROFF is truly amazing!!! Tim

fish. Some of us can even do both. — Mr. G.   http://www.gink.com/html  Fly Fisherman’s Chat Site

Response:

Take a class. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was watching a video on fly fishing the other day and the guy in the video seemed to be able to cast fairly long distances with hardly any effort at all. I am getting better at casting but I seem to need to put a little more force into my cast than what I have seen in most video’s.  I was wondering what weight rod and line are these guys normally using in these video’s? I have a Cabela’s Sweetwater 6/7 weight rod and use 6 weight WF floating line on it.  I need to really put some power into my casts to get it to reach out even say 20 – 25 ft. I’m trying to keep my wrist firm and elbow tight to my body and using abrupt stops at 11:00 and 1:00 then follow through when letting the fly go to the target so I think I’m doing it right.  Fairly tight loops and all, but something just doesn’t seem right when I see the ease with which some of these guys can cast. Would it make sense for me to try a 7 weight line? BTW it’s not that I really mind the the way I’m casting but I have a pinched nerve in my neck and shoulder (from too many years of competitve volleyball) and after a few hours of casting I start to get a little sore. thanks, Tim Sheehan

Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was watching a video on fly fishing the other day and the guy in the video seemed to be able to cast fairly long distances with hardly any effort at all. I am getting better at casting but I seem to need to put a little more force into my cast than what I have seen in most video’s.  I was wondering what weight rod and line are these guys normally using in these video’s?  I have a Cabela’s Sweetwater 6/7 weight rod and use 6 weight WF floating line on it.  I need to really put some power into my casts to get it to reach out even say 20 – 25 ft. I’m trying to keep my wrist firm and elbow tight to my body and using abrupt stops at 11:00 and 1:00 then follow through when letting the fly go to the target so I think I’m doing it right.  Fairly tight loops and all, but something just doesn’t seem right when I see the ease with which some of these guys can cast. Would it make sense for me to try a 7 weight line?

Don’t worry so much about distance.  Unless you are fishing the ocean, distance is highly overrated.  Relax, master your cast at shorter distances and eventually, with practice, it’ll all come together. Just MNSHO,      - Ken — "Many go fishing all their lives without knowing that it is not fish  they are after."     – Henry David Thoreau

Response:

Don’t worry so much about distance.  Unless you are fishing the ocean, distance is highly overrated.  Relax, master your cast at shorter distances and eventually, with practice, it’ll all come together.

thanks for the tip Ken, and thanks to all that responded to this post with helful advice!! I even got an offer of a free booklet and some casting lessons from another…ROFF is truly amazing!!! Tim

Response:

Well said, Mr. G. This reminds me of a trip to Hat Creek, when I lived in California. I get to the stream, I am walking around, far from the banks, trying to spot feeding fish. And all of the sudden: there they are, a pod of about 20 fish, all lined up along the bank, the same bank I am standing on. So i kneal, tie a fly, and cast (about 20 feet), pling, slurp, fish on, a 17 " rainbow ! I release the fish, and I move on, with the intention of coming back later, hoping that the fish come back.  I return 45 minutes later, and, as I approach the spot, I see a raiseform along the bank, in the same spot.  They are back ! However, this guy arrives at the same time, steps into the water (right through the pod !) goes to the middle of the stream and starts casting long, beautiful casts. If you have ever fished Hat Creek, you would know that long beautiful casts in the middle of the river, in the middle of the summer, are essentially worthless: the weeds create capricious little surface currents that always cause your fly to drag after two-three feet (when doing things properly: reach casts, s casts, parachute casts, whatever is required to put as much slack in the line as one can.) Lakes, some very large rivers (e.g.: yellowstone, below the lake), saltwater, might require long casts (yesterday I was out on a local reservoir, smallmouth fishing, and I have to say that double hauls did really help there, to get past those long weed banks ….), on most streams trout can be found much closer than you think …. (Atlantic salmon,sea trout, steelhead are a different matter…) -Vittorio – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don’t worry so much about distance.  Unless you are fishing the ocean, distance is highly overrated.  Relax, master your cast at shorter distances and eventually, with practice, it’ll all come together. thanks for the tip Ken, and thanks to all that responded to this post with helful advice!! I even got an offer of a free booklet and some casting lessons from another…ROFF is truly amazing!!! Tim fish. Some of us can even do both. — Mr. G. http://www.gink.com/html  Fly Fisherman’s Chat Site

Response:

Mr. G. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This reminds me of a trip to Hat Creek, when I lived in California. I get to the stream, I am walking around, far from the banks, trying to spot feeding fish. And all of the sudden: there they are, a pod of about 20 fish, all lined up along the bank, the same bank I am standing on. So i kneal, tie a fly, and cast (about 20 feet), pling, slurp, fish on, a 17 " rainbow ! I release the fish, and I move on, with the intention of coming back later, hoping that the fish come back.  I return 45 minutes later, and, as I approach the spot, I see a raiseform along the bank, in the same spot.  They are back ! However, this guy arrives at the same time, steps into the water (right through the pod !) goes to the middle of the stream and starts casting long, beautiful casts. If you have ever fished Hat Creek, you would know that long beautiful casts in the middle of the river, in the middle of the summer, are essentially worthless: the weeds create capricious little surface currents that always cause your fly to drag after two-three feet (when doing things properly: reach casts, s casts, parachute casts, whatever is required to put as much slack in the line as one can.) Lakes, some very large rivers (e.g.: yellowstone, below the lake), saltwater, might require long casts (yesterday I was out on a local reservoir, smallmouth fishing, and I have to say that double hauls did really help there, to get past those long weed banks ….), on most streams trout can be found much closer than you think …. (Atlantic salmon,sea trout, steelhead are a different matter…) -Vittorio fish. Some of us can even do both. — Mr. G. http://www.gink.com/html  Fly Fisherman’s Chat Site

Response:

Get that pinched nerve fixed! A while back, I had a pinched nerve in my neck that gave me pain along my left forearm and numbness/pins-n-needles in my thumb and forefinger. An old girlfriend, who is a physio, suggested some self therapy which cleared things up after a few weeks.

Surgery may be required. I had a pinched nerve in my neck caused by a herniated disc. It was agonizing and was causing my right arm to atrophy. My first surgery was what is called a "lamectomy." The surgeon told me it would work for awhile but the problem would probably recur. He recommended fusing a couple of discs, but that sounded too extreme for me. I should have listened to him, because a few years later the pinched nerve came back worse than ever. I had the discs fused several years ago and now my neck and arm are 100%, and I don’t even notice any lack of mobility in my neck. The worst part was the recuperation, which entailed about three months of lying around the house wearing a neck brace. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Get that pinched nerve fixed! A while back, I had a pinched nerve in my neck that gave me pain along my left forearm and numbness/pins-n-needles in my thumb and forefinger. An old girlfriend, who is a physio, suggested some self therapy which cleared things up after a few weeks.

Thanks for the reply Tony! I actually did go to the doctor last week because the numbness was getting much worse in my right arm and fingers.  The doc sent me for a spine xray (I’m still waiting for the results) and prescribed some muscle relaxers and NSAIDs. I did get one session with the Physical therapist last week and I have already noticed some improvement. (Of-course it could be the placebo effect:) Thanks for the tips on casting too!! Tim

Response:

BTW it’s not that I really mind the the way I’m casting but I have a pinched nerve in my neck and shoulder (from too many years of competitve volleyball) and after a few hours of casting I start to get a little sore. thanks, Tim Sheehan

Get that pinched nerve fixed! A while back, I had a pinched nerve in my neck that gave me pain along my left forearm and numbness/pins-n-needles in my thumb and forefinger. An old girlfriend, who is a physio, suggested some self therapy which cleared things up after a few weeks. Within limits, the heavier the fly line, the further it will go. If you double the diameter of a fly line, you quadruple the unit mass (for a given line density). This quadruples the momentum, while only doubling the air resistance (drag), for a given velocity. BTW, doubling the line velocity might double the momentum, but it also quadruples the drag. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

I was watching a video on fly fishing the other day and the guy in the video seemed to be able to cast fairly long distances with hardly any effort at all. I am getting better at casting but I seem to need to put a little more force into my cast than what I have seen in most video’s.  I was wondering what weight rod and line are these guys normally using in these video’s?  I have a Cabela’s Sweetwater 6/7 weight rod and use 6 weight WF floating line on it.  I need to really put some power into my casts to get it to reach out even say 20 – 25 ft. I’m trying to keep my wrist firm and elbow tight to my body and using abrupt stops at 11:00 and 1:00 then follow through when letting the fly go to the target so I think I’m doing it right.  Fairly tight loops and all, but something just doesn’t seem right when I see the ease with which some of these guys can cast. Would it make sense for me to try a 7 weight line? BTW it’s not that I really mind the the way I’m casting but I have a pinched nerve in my neck and shoulder (from too many years of competitve volleyball) and after a few hours of casting I start to get a little sore. thanks, Tim Sheehan

Response:

Hi Tim.  if it hurts you are doing it wrong. Take a lesson. You should be able to cast at least sixty feet with relative ease using the correct technique. If you can not do so, take a lesson from a pro. It is rarely necessary to cast sixty feet as it happens, but if it gives you peace of mind to be capable of doing so, then as I said, take a lesson. You will not regret it. TL MC

Response:

Tim… Your comment about keeping your "wrist firm" may be a hint to your problem. As Doug Swisher has said many times in his fly fishing videos, it’s important for a fly caster to develop a "micro second" wrist. This means that your wrist plays a critical part in your casting stroke. The "11 and 1" casting arc should be managed by tipping your wrist correctly, not your arm. This could also explain you getting tired and sore. You might not be letting the rod do the work. Just my 2

Question:

I am going to be in Fargo or Bismark on business in May.   Does anyone know of fly fishing opportunities in North Dakota? JK

Response:

See the Tony Dean web site http://www.tonydean.com.  He has a "brochure" covering information on fly fishing for trout in some of the small reserviors in that state which you could ask for by e-mail or phone. If you don’t have any luck repost here and I will scan in the copy my dad has and e-mail it to you. Mikeh

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am going to be in Fargo or Bismark on business in May.   Does anyone know of fly fishing opportunities in North Dakota? JK

Response:

Question:

Wayne Knight Geneva IL You’re right Wayne but Walt grew up in Florida. Somewhere in the swamps I think.

mango infested islands loaded with big tusked hogs and big, slow moving turtles.  That’s why it takes him so long to do anything and is why women love him. ; ) —

Question:

GG whore-news-hounds like Bob Silie and Charlie Myers were taken there.  If GG you want to destroy a river or cathedral like this, simply write about it. I just love your writing style George and I believe you are right about these things most of the time. You know the water I fish from our conversations regarding John and Elna. I have recently stopped giving information in my posts which refer to the river I fish and live on. Hell, I may even stop referring to the entire State. My question, which is posed to you with the greatest respect for your experience, is simply:     1. Am I a selfish, greedy fool for not wanting my rather private party     crashed,          or     2. Have I been a loudmouthed fool for the many past years and posts I have     made inviting everyone I knew, and many I didn’t to come partake in the     pleasure? I have very mixed emotions about this, but I have seen what you are talking about here happen in so many places. Thanks for the shared experiences and cerebral pleasures your posts have brought me George. Dennis Vick … nfx v2.6 [C0000]  http://www.westonia.com/blueview/                      

Response:

Thanks for the images Mr. Gink.  Again, I can only try and imagine.  By the way, that 10 pound cutthroat is swimming around Pyramid lake with a bunch of buddies the same size……JE

Response:

How ravaged was she when 1983 came around?  My first meeting with this fine fair princess was not a solitary affair, but I know the 14 years since since then have been brutal, accelerating with every season.  Now, I can’t stand to see her.  The agonizing destruction brought on by her own, complex beauty hurts too deeply.  And the trout, tell me, give me an idea of just how much I missed.  In 1983 she seemed in good health, but I have no other version of her to compare, except her violated ugly present state.  Then, I thought I was still seeing at least a glimpse of what you two recall.  Now I can only imagine…

Of course, if the Denver Water Board had their way, it would be a great big recreation area now… — Chester Bullock Affordable Web Design and Hosting for Small Businesses http://www.black-diamond.com

Response:

Comes now, thundering towards the lady, from over the horizon – the goat-fuckers of the Platte River. The crown jewel trout stream in the entire state. At least, I knew her when she was still virgin.  Unmolested, unbaited, with wild rainbows as big and as long as your leg.  Challenged, fought, released for another day.  The genes of yesterday, saved for my tomorrows, and for the tomorrows of children then, yet unborn . . . who want to come now and kill you and your children that play in dark, clear, secret pools.  From wheel-chairs, jeeps, skidoo’s, spinners, and campers filled with canning jars!   Let us strip her garments, her flowing gowns and dress away.  Strip her naked to be raped with drive up camp grounds so the goat-fuckers can cast from the seat of an open topped 4-WD, or float on down the center of the river in black, ugly truck inner-tubes, with rat-faced macdoogal, sun freckled rug rats screaming in your ears.  Who wants to hear those peeping Water Oozels anymore, or the cheer of the blue-bird, or the rattling of the great woodpeckers in the pines?  Its going to be more fun listening to those Coleman Electrical generators and some bitch screaming . . . "Didn’t I tell you to come eat these damned hamburgers?!!" Goodby, sweet Princess.  We knew, one day you were going to be murdered. We all must die, someday but some of us, in the quiet reaches of Colorado’s Outdoors, do it better than others.  Your death has begun and it will be a public affair attended by all of Denver this public hanging that has long been . . . overdue? Mr. G.

Response:

Poignant, truthful and sad. Might as well build the Two Forks dam, just to put our mother out of her anguished misery.

You know, I’ve thought the same thing myself. Although I don’t consider the Platte my "mother" (that’s another river in another place far from here) she has certainly been a lover. Almost better to wipe it all away than see it get worse. </chaz

Response:

Go back to 1968-1972 before the road was paved.  When the Denver Water Board had all of it locked up and then after that, the entire Lake above the Dam.  It was in the days when on a weekend only one or two other cars were hidden or parked on the path in.  When I could fish all week and never see another soul.  When you could look down into Anticipation Pool and watch Rainbows chasing another with a face full of green algae filimentagous moss full of caddis worms, trying to steal  it like a pack of puppies chasing the nipples on mother.  When I could sit on one of those huge basalt/sandstone boulders by the hour watching fish up to fifteen and sixteen pounds darting around like minnows!  Spunky, fearless, not knowing what ‘man’ was about and the depth of the pool protected them from predators, so they hid seldom.  It was water that had no brown trout in it then.  Those were introduced by the idiots at the Wig-Wam Club.  But once started, it hurt the fishery beyond imagination.  It was long before the outdoor writers of the Rocky Mountain News, and the Denver Post and the whore-news-hounds like Bob Silie and Charlie Myers were taken there.  If you want to destroy a river or cathedral like this, simply write about it. It was Brad Fort who first took me here.  It was Brad Fort who taught me that here, little was better and where literally, "Matching the Hatch" meant you took viles of samples home and you INVENTED the emerging caddis flies with the short-side duck-quill-tip wings, the fine gold ribbing, the beaver chest and the black mink fur head and the trailing wood-duck flank legs in sizes 18/2X and 16 hooks.  It was when you stood in front of a little shoot of water and forced yourself to believe that there WAS a fish THERE.  You fished with total focus, no indicators, you concentrated just on the leader where it entered the water.  If you can read water you must learn how to read the drift of a leader.  How it moves, in or out, fast or slows with the current, or how it may simply ‘pause’.  You don’t lift with each ‘guess’ but rather I snap the rod tip down towards the water for about two or six inches.  Its enough to move the mico-caddis offerings to touch a trout without having to come out of the water or off the bottom.  Few, if any other fly fishermen knew this trick I guessed at and was taught by this river to do.  And then the day came of all glorious days in my life.  I had been fishing her in secret for many years.  It was the only place in the west I knew of that had such large fish and so many of them.  Over 8,000 per mile. I began to dream of ‘a feat’.  A club I want to start, even to this day. But with the Rainbow, I think I am the only man in the world to do this feat, but I have not been able to do it with all the other species but I am near to completing it with the brown. It goes like this.  A sixteen inch trout caught on a size sixteen hook. This makes me a member of the 16/16 club.  With the Rainbow Species and all of them caught on the Platte River above Deckers.  I am my own member in good standing for completing all the fish and hook sizes.  They are:  The 18/18 Club, the 20/20, 22/22 and 24/24 Club and then a year later the 26/26 club, the 28/28 club and finally a 32 inch Rainbow caught on a size 32 fly slightly over-sized-dressed as a midge. With the Brown Trout, I have them all except the 26/26 Club and most of those are caught at the Miracle Mile and Big Horn River before the Indians opened it up to public fishing. In this world, on this planet, I don’t think there is a man alive that could spend a lifetime and get this far let alone do all four species on all seven hook sizes.  Such a man, would be remembered forever, I think. This idea, which is copyrighted by me is on the back-burner because the patches and certificates could be won by a little boy fishing a fly in an irrigation ditch such as the 16/16 inch Club Master with a Brown Trout.  As the years pass, the patches start to gather and it would not require killing fish to do it.  Just a camera and a witness.  Two witnesses after one gets over the 20 sizes. There is a man named Charlie Kroll who is the son-in-law of Fred Bear of Bear Archery fame.  Mr. Kroll (who used to be my neighbor in Blackhawk Colorado where I invented Gink) has done something nearly as marvelous and as difficult.  Catching a ten pounder or greater trout of each species on a fly.  He has them all except the Cutthroat.  By the time he got to Reno, the big Cutts had already been pan-fried and are gone.  I don’t think there is another 10 pound cutthroat left in the lower 48 but I think he can still find one in South America. That, remains to be seen. Mr. Gink – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How ravaged was she when 1983 came around?  My first meeting with this fine fair princess was not a solitary affair, but I know the 14 years since since then have been brutal, accelerating with every season.  Now, I can’t stand to see her.  The agonizing destruction brought on by her own, complex beauty hurts too deeply.  And the trout, tell me, give me an idea of just how much I missed.  In 1983 she seemed in good health, but I have no other version of her to compare, except her violated ugly present state.  Then, I thought I was still seeing at least a glimpse of what you two recall.  Now I can only imagine…

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How ravaged was she when 1983 came around?  My first meeting with this fine fair princess was not a solitary affair, but I know the 14 years since since then have been brutal, accelerating with every season.  Now, I can’t stand to see her.  The agonizing destruction brought on by her own, complex beauty hurts too deeply.  And the trout, tell me, give me an idea of just how much I missed.  In 1983 she seemed in good health, but I have no other version of her to compare, except her violated ugly present state.  Then, I thought I was still seeing at least a glimpse of what you two recall.  Now I can only imagine…

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Poignant, truthful and sad.   Might as well build the Two Forks dam, just to put our mother out of her anguished misery. — TimW Halfordian Golfer – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Comes now, thundering towards the lady, from over the horizon – the goat-fuckers of the Platte River. The crown jewel trout stream in the entire state. At least, I knew her when she was still virgin.  Unmolested, unbaited, with wild rainbows as big and as long as your leg.  Challenged, fought, released for another day.  The genes of yesterday, saved for my tomorrows, and for the tomorrows of children then, yet unborn . . . who want to come now and kill you and your children that play in dark, clear, secret pools.  From wheel-chairs, jeeps, skidoo’s, spinners, and campers filled with canning jars!   Let us strip her garments, her flowing gowns and dress away.  Strip her naked to be raped with drive up camp grounds so the goat-fuckers can cast from the seat of an open topped 4-WD, or float on down the center of the river in black, ugly truck inner-tubes, with rat-faced macdoogal, sun freckled rug rats screaming in your ears.  Who wants to hear those peeping Water Oozels anymore, or the cheer of the blue-bird, or the rattling of the great woodpeckers in the pines?  Its going to be more fun listening to those Coleman Electrical generators and some bitch screaming . . . "Didn’t I tell you to come eat these damned hamburgers?!!" Goodby, sweet Princess.  We knew, one day you were going to be murdered. We all must die, someday but some of us, in the quiet reaches of Colorado’s Outdoors, do it better than others.  Your death has begun and it will be a public affair attended by all of Denver this public hanging that has long been . . . overdue? Mr. G.

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  Comes now, thundering towards the lady, from over the horizon – the   goat-fuckers of the Platte River. The crown jewel trout stream in   the   entire state.   At least, I knew her when she was still virgin.  Unmolested,   unbaited,   with wild rainbows as big and as long as your leg.  Challenged,   fought,   released for another day.  The genes of yesterday, saved for my   tomorrows, and for the tomorrows of children then, yet unborn . . .   who   want to come now and kill you and your children that play in dark,   clear, secret pools.  From wheel-chairs, jeeps, skidoo’s, spinners,   and   campers filled with canning jars!   Let us strip her garments, her   flowing gowns and dress away.  Strip her naked to be raped with   drive up   camp grounds so the goat-fuckers can cast from the seat of an open   topped 4-WD, or float on down the center of the river in black, ugly   truck inner-tubes, with rat-faced macdoogal, sun freckled rug rats   screaming in your ears.  Who wants to hear those peeping Water   Oozels   anymore, or the cheer of the blue-bird, or the rattling of the great   woodpeckers in the pines?  Its going to be more fun listening to   those   Coleman Electrical generators and some bitch screaming . . . "Didn’t   I   tell you to come eat these damned hamburgers?!!"   Goodby, sweet Princess.  We knew, one day you were going to be   murdered.   We all must die, someday but some of us, in the quiet reaches of   Colorado’s Outdoors, do it better than others.  Your death has begun   and   it will be a public affair attended by all of Denver this public   hanging   that has long been . . . overdue?   Mr. G.  Dear Mr. Gehrke: I was lucky enough, one time many years ago to meet  you as I had watched you fishing above the Wigwam Club long before the paved roads were put in.  When that long grade down into the Platte Canyon could literally kill you.  When it was still wilderness.  I watched you fish the big, deep pools from a huge boulder high above and you were below . . . and I

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has <snip has never mined gold in the United States.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time. Actually a mining engineer told me that cyanide is so reactive with carbon compounds, that it is totally absorbed very quickly in a river bed. Oh sure its toxic, but it doesn’t last long or travel far. In 1991 the Summitville Mine in Colorado spilled cyanide and heavy metals into the Alamosa River, killing all aquatic life in a 19 mile stretch. This was after assurances were given when the mine opened that "state of the art" pollution controls were being used. There is a 120 mile section of the Clark Fork River in NW Montana that is a Superfund site because of mining pollution. Dams and ponds do nothing when you have torrential rains and flooding, causing the cyanide and heavy metal solution to overflow, which has happened at a number of mining sites.

Response:

  The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has <snip has never mined gold in the United States. Wrong. Copper mining in leach pits is very similar to gold mining. Phelps Dodge removes huge quantities of gold from its copper operations.

Yes, but this is the first ever "gold" mining venture, in which gold is the primary objective.  Of course they have removed gold from copper operations, but they were not "gold" mining.    Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time. Yes, cyanide is highly toxic, but please explain the statement regarding MOST mines leaking cyanide into nearby streams. While it is true that there have been cyanide leaks,  the word MOST is very misleading.  Some specific numbers would be quite interesting to see.  And cyanide does not persist for a long time. Shawn This statement is also true.  Mines that have used the heap-leach method

use impoundment dams that collect the waste cyanide.  The dams are lined with polyurethane liners that are as thick as a nickel.  In addition, the ore piles are put on top of polyurethane sheets which are supposed to keep the cyanide out of groundwater.  Every major Montana mine; and large mining companies are the primary users of cyanide-leaching has been cited for some type of water quality violation, most of which are related to cyanide leakage.  The liners are often the reason for the leak; holes, tears, seam leakage.  Rain storms have been a cause also, as they have filled up waste reservoirs and caused them to overflow.  If cyanide gets into groundwater, it gets into streams.     A large enough cyanide spill, or consistent leakage can persist for a long time in streams and rivers.  Usually, by the time groundwater leakage of cyanide is detected by the EPA or the Montana Department of Environmental Quality (DEQ), because mining companies are not likely to report, or even know about many of these leaks, they have already done their damage.  Aquatic life is much more sensitive to cyanide in lesser amounts than non aquatic life.   Shawn, keep in mind that the mining industry in Montana may be different from the industry in other states.  Our water quality laws are much more lenient than many places, thus, it is important to pass I-122.  Our past mining history shows that.  If you have any questions about the record regarding cyanide leakage, just contact the Montana Environmental Information Center, who’s address is in my original letter.  Or better yet, come to Montana sometime and see the destruction left in the place where a mountain was before, and fish the rivers that once had fish!                            Craig

Response:

  The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has <snip has never mined gold in the United States. Wrong. Copper mining in leach pits is very similar to gold mining. Phelps Dodge removes huge quantities of gold from its copper operations.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time.

Yes, cyanide is highly toxic, but please explain the statement regarding MOST mines leaking cyanide into nearby streams. While it is true that there have been cyanide leaks,  the word MOST is very misleading.  Some specific numbers would be quite interesting to see.  And cyanide does not persist for a long time. Shawn

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has <snip has never mined gold in the United States. Wrong. Copper mining in leach pits is very similar to gold mining. Phelps Dodge removes huge quantities of gold from its copper operations.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time. Actually a mining engineer told me that cyanide is so reactive with carbon compounds, that it is totally absorbed very quickly in a river bed. Oh sure its toxic, but it doesn’t last long or travel far. I understand how you feel about this, but these mining operations are not as slip shod as you suggest. Phelps Dodge uses a closed recycling leach method where the leached metal ions are first removed by electrowining, then the water solution is pumped back onto the leach pile. Dams and pond liners prevent the escape of valuable fluids.

In 1991 the Summitville Mine in Colorado spilled cyanide and heavy metals into the Alamosa River, killing all aquatic life in a 19 mile stretch. This was after assurances were given when the mine opened that "state of the art" pollution controls were being used. There is a 120 mile section of the Clark Fork River in NW Montana that is a Superfund site because of mining pollution. Dams and ponds do nothing when you have torrential rains and flooding, causing the cyanide and heavy metal solution to overflow, which has happened at a number of mining sites.

Response:

Dams and pondliners prevent the escape of valuable fluids.

Right. And when (not if) those liners fail: 100 years, 500 years, even 2000 years if wer’e really lucky, the entire area becomes a superfund site.  Note that the acid leaches lots of heavy metals, highly toxic, *other* than gold, which poison the ground and the water supply. – - – the cyanide is not the major problem!    it’s the leached metals – - – which Jim won’t discuss I suppose Jim is gonna claim that the damn $1.83 per acre will pay for the impossible clean-up, like it has in Colarado? Jim, exactly how would you clean up those Colorado acid leach sites ??? – - –   Funny thing these ‘white people’: They see a mountain, all they want to do is blow it into a pile of acid leaching crap (note the acid leached a lot of *really* poisonous heavy metals). For a few pounds of shiny yellow metal, which they’ve already got more of in Fort Knox than they can do anything productive or pretty with.   Then these ‘white people’ take the money, declare the company bankrupt, and skip town… all the time whining about how we are interfering with ‘their west’.   If this is an excuse to make them rich at taxpayer expense, lets just bring back welfare and GIVE them the damn money *not* to totally fuck up the place. Let ‘em sit at home and watch TV. I’ve seen enough hard rock mining shit to care a lot about this… I’m not sorry about the language.

Response:

  The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has

<snip has never mined gold in the United States. Wrong. Copper mining in leach pits is very similar to gold mining. Phelps Dodge removes huge quantities of gold from its copper operations.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time.

Actually a mining engineer told me that cyanide is so reactive with carbon compounds, that it is totally absorbed very quickly in a river bed. Oh sure its toxic, but it doesn’t last long or travel far. I understand how you feel about this, but these mining operations are not as slip shod as you suggest. Phelps Dodge uses a closed recycling leach method where the leached metal ions are first removed by electrowining, then the water solution is pumped back onto the leach pile. Dams and pond liners prevent the escape of valuable fluids. Jim

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            BIG INDUSTRY GOLD MINE WILL RUIN MONTANA RIVER   The Blackfoot River, which has flowed clean and cold in Montana from its headwaters near the continental divide for thousands of years is now being threatened by a huge open-pit cyanide heap-leach mine.  The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp. and Canyon Resources Inc. – the Seven-Up Pete Joint Venture, wants to mine the river’s headwaters for gold.  The mine site, including 172 million pounds of cyanide, which will be poured over 980 million tons of removed ore from the mountain will sit just 1/4 mile from the Blackfoot River.  (The Blackfoot River, by the way was recently made famous by Norman Maclean in his novel "A River Runs Through It".)   To get at the gold, buried 1,200 feet underground in trace amounts, the mining company will have to dismantle two pine-covered buttes, and for each ton of ore, the miners will recover 0.02 ounces of gold.  The remaining pit, more than a mile across and deep enough to hide the Washington Monument will collect groundwater which will be contaminated with heavy metals, and will have to be pumped out at the rate of 15.8 million gallons a day.   In Butte Montana, the Berkely Pit copper mine, which is no longer in operation has a similar sized hole.  The pit is filling up with water, and officials have no way to get rid of the Carcinogen’s, toxins or metals in it, which have already leaked into the water table of the town of Butte.  The mines copper smelter, the Anaconda Smelter has dumped tons of waste sediment into the Clark Fork River which has already caused several fish-kills, and water quality problems in my town, Missoula MT.   The Blackfoot River feeds into the Clark Fork to the East, before it flows into Missoula, which means that a spill or leak of cyanide or heavy metals into the Blackfoot, would also terminally harm the Clark Fork. Both rivers are currently used regularly for rafting, kayaking, fly fishing and other recreations.   The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has had accidents at virtually all its mines.  It has been cited and fined frequently for toxic discharges into nearby waters.  The company has never mined gold in the United States.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time.  Even in dilute solutions, cyanide kills fish and other life forms.  A leak of this chemical poison into the Blackfoot could finish the river for decades.   In November, the people of Montana will be voting for or against Initiative 122, "The Clean Water Initiative".  This initiative demands higher standards for removal of carcinogens and toxins before being discharged into state waters.  The current law, one of the most lax water quality laws in the country, allows mine discharges to be diluted after release into state waters, where it is measured down stream after a "mixing zone".  The "mixing zone" technique uses the river to dilute waste rather than using expensive machinery to filter it out. The current "easy to mine cheaply" water law is one of the reasons so many mining corporations seek Montana sites over mine sites in other states.   The Phelps Dodge Mining Co. has spent over 1 million dollars on TV and radio adds in recent months, which Missoula and other communities across the state have been bombarded with.  The adds claim that state water laws are sufficient, which they clearly are not, and that stricter laws for removing higher levels of poisons before discharge from mines will put many mines out of business and hurt the states economy. The so-called "Montanans for Common Sense Water Laws" advertisements that the mining industry has created have been cited as being "illegal" by the fair-election watchdog group, "Common Cause".   "Using a misleading name, "Montanans for Common Sense Water Laws," to run a million-dollar media blitz, the Industry is succeeding in changing citizen beliefs, and they’re breaking the law to do it."  (Hal Harper, Democratic state representative from Helena, MT.)  Unfortunately, many people in the state have been scared by these ads, and swayed into believing that I-122 will hurt the economy and that it unfairly targets the mining industry.  The fact is that mining state-wide, accounts for less than one percent of the workforce, and mining has a long history of causing post mining recessions that hurt the economy.     On top of the adds, the mining industry has donated computers to the local high school, X-ray machines to the local clinic and it helped to insulate the local senior citizens facility in an attempt to win support for the upcoming vote against the Clean Water Initiative.  Proponents of I-122 believe that if a mine can not find a way to clean up their mess before they release water into the river, they should not be mining in the first place.     Supporters of I-122 have raised only around 300 thousand dollars toward the fight to make higher water quality standards law, so we need as much support as possible.  The Clark Fork-Pend Oreille Coalition recommends writing or contacting the following people to voice your opinion or concerns:  Write to Montana governor Marc Racicot, who currently favors mining and opposes I-122.                              Gov. Marc Racicot                          Capitol Station                          Helena, MT 59620                          (406)444-3111 The Phelps Dodge Mine Co. has applied to the Montana Department of Environmental Quality  (DEQ) for a permit to build this mine.  Write Sandi Olsen at the DEQ.  Ask her to put you on the mailing list for public scoping on the Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) that the DEQ will prepare once it deems Phelps Dodge’s application complete.  The findings are what determine whether the state approves or denies this permit.                          Sandi Olsen                          Montana DEQ                          P.O. Box 200901                          Helena, MT 59620                          (406)444-4988   Write a letter to your local newspaper.  Explain that the Blackfoot is too precious to trade for the short-term and questionable benefits from mining.  Remember; this is not just a Montana problem.  We all need to speak out against giant corporations that value their own interests of profit and gain over people and environment!  For more information and updates on this issue, please contact the following:                           Clark Fork- pend Oreille Coalition                       P.O. Box 7593                                                     Missoula, MT 59807                       (406)542-0539                       Montana Council of Trout Unlimited                       P.O Box 7186                       Missoula, MT 59807                       (406)543-0054                       Montana Environmental Information Center                       P.O. Box 1184                       Helena, MT 59624                       (406)443-2520    I am a University of Montana student and am not affiliated with any of the above organizations.  I am just attempting to help get the word out that what may happen if I-122 loses, is the destruction of a river and an eco-system that can not be replaced for decades.   Much of the above information came from articles from the San Francisco Examiner, The Missoulian, the Great Falls Tribune, the Clark Fork-pend Oreille Coalition and my own research and discussions with other sources.                   Craig Murphy

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Question:

No man can lose what he never had.           Chap. v. The Compleate Angler – Izaak Walton. 1593-1683. I guess that’s why its called fishing and not catching Tight lines Julian

Response:

Bad news….16 inches isn’t a monster.  It’s a nice fish, but not worth  crying over.  Hope this makes you feel better.

I beg to differ…it was probably a speck (brook trout), in which case 16 inches is DEFINITELY worth crying over. The biggest brookie I’ve caught so far was only 10 inches. "Oh, once in a while you’ll tie into a big one, say seven or eight inches long, but you’ll need to use live bait and Ford Fenders for one of those." – Jeff Ohman, Fear of Fly fishing. My condolences, Pierre…but look on the bright side…you saw it, you felt it. You may run into it again, in which case say hello from me. — K.G. (Kat) Cruickshank – fish enthusiast – Toronto, Ontario, Canada see my illustrations at http://www.mackerel.com/fish/home.html

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16" may be a big brookie on some small stream, but on large lakes and rivers in northern Ontario, and especially Quebec, a 16" brookie doesn’t even entitle you to braggin rights.  IMHO.  Tight lines.  

Response:

Yesterday, I was fishing near my home in Quebec with my girlfriend’s father I was using a little green Muddler. After I had caught 10 trouts, some have 11 inches long, I saw this MONSTER at the end of my line. It was at least 16 inches. But I just can’t bring it on the ground I had no net and I lost it. Since yesterday I can’t stop tinking about this fish. Help me

Congratulate yourself on effecting a humane and brilliantly executed long distance release, tie another muddler and get on with your life.

Response:

Yesterday, I was fishing near my home in Quebec with my girlfriend’s father I was using a little green Muddler. After I had caught 10 trouts, some have 11 inches long, I saw this MONSTER at the end of my line. It was at least 16 inches. But I just can’t bring it on the ground I had no net and I lost it. Since yesterday I can’t stop tinking about this fish. Help me

it was the spirits of 10 fishies haunting you.   you must cleanse yourself by UPS’ing me all of your fishing stuff. it is the only way. TimW

Response:

Yesterday, I was fishing near my home in Quebec with my girlfriend’s father I was using a little green Muddler. After I had caught 10 trouts, some have 11 inches long, I saw this MONSTER at the end of my line. It was at least 16 inches. But I just can’t bring it on the ground I had no net and I lost it. Since yesterday I can’t stop tinking about this fish. Help me

Pierre,  Congratulations!! You haven’t "lost" your monster trout, you have successfully completed one of the most difficult type of humane releases a Catch and Release Fly Fisher can accomplish — The Long Distance – No Hands Release. What you experienced is not a failure but a magnificent success. Non, mon ami you don’t need therapy —  YOU NEED A NET!!!!!! jg

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You need more than a net.  You need to re-define "big" trout. A big trout is 5 lbs or better IMHO. 16" trout are a dime a dozen.  Great fighters at that size, though.

Response:

Bad news….16 inches isn’t a monster.  It’s a nice fish, but not worth crying over.  Hope this makes you feel better.

Response:

IMHO, the size of a "great" trout depends on the river or watershed and your experience catching and releasing that fish.  In a number of fisheries a 16" fish may represent the best that that ecosystem is capable of producing and sustaining. Dave Donahue

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Since yesterday I can’t stop tinking about this fish. Help me

Pierre, this is a malady that effects us all.  The demons of the deep (sometimes shallow) will continue to haunt us all for as long as we fish and then some.  I myself have a similiar re-occuring nightmare where I lost a 28in, 6-6 1/2 lb brown on a size 22 nymph when the knot came loose.  I have dreamed about that fish at least once a month for the last two years.  But a wise man once said, "It is better to have fished and lost than never to have fished before!"  Keep on trying and remember "Love ‘em and Leave ‘em."

Response:

Yesterday, I was fishing near my home in Quebec with my girlfriend’s father I was using a little green Muddler. After I had caught 10 trouts, some have 11 inches long, I saw this MONSTER at the end of my line. It was at least 16 inches. But I just can’t bring it on the ground I had no net and I lost it. Since yesterday I can’t stop tinking about this fish. Help me

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Question:

snip I dont have too.  The streams I like to fish are: hot creek, the lower owens, big chico creek, and the east walker.   Out of these %75 are zero limits.  And the EW is kind of a pain to drive to from mammoth.

Please, please don’t tell me you’re basing this whole thing on four streams, I was giving you more credit than that.  By the way, on the Lower Owens you can keep two under 12" above the footbridge. A 2 fish, barbless fly restricted stream WILL stay in good shape.   In fact, arguably it can actually improve some streams.  And if it doesnt, any bad effect would be minimal.

Since you call yourself a beginner, I applaud your efforts in becoming an expert on fisheries mgmt before taking up the sport. Having fished for only 30 of my 37 years and freely admit that I could never make a statement like yours with such authority, I yield to your brilliance and slink away from this thread. No doubt, in next year’s regs I will be reading "Changes recommended by Shyguy." Have fun and good luck in school… Ross

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, OK, a two fish limit then.  It still won’t completely deplete a fishery withing one year.  So, I’m afraid it is still Bull shit. what?  WHAT?  Has anybody read what I wrote?  People keep flaming me for a true statement!  I never said I was for 0 fish limits, against limits, for or against depleting a fishery.  The guy that wrote the original statement said that there would be NO fish left in an area that had a one or two fish limit!  THAT IS STILL BULL SHIT.  I am FOR< regulation!  I LIKE limits!  I like to catch fish, and I like to release them.  My statement is true, true, true.

Actually, your statement that a two fish limit can’t deplete a fishery in a year is the only BS flying around.  Depends on catch rate, angling pressure, stock recruitment and population.  People ARE reading what you write, perhaps, the problem is that you just don’t write very well or understand the dynamics involved in fisheries management.  Your statement is a gross generalization and is neither true nor untrue until applied in the context of a specific  situation.                         Mike in PDX                "When the trout are lost, smash the state."                                            Tom McGuane t

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Everybody is so gungho on zero limits and I dont like it I want to be able to keep 1 or 2 decent sized fish to take home and eat. MORE IMPORTANTLY, talking to fish and game people who were on hot creek, leds me to believe that zero limits can be detrimental.  Not as detrimental as people taking 5 fish out, but allowing people to take a small number of fish could help out, as there can be too many fish, meaning the fish will be significantly smaller. Not only would a 1 or 2 fish limit appease those like me who sometimes like to keep some fish, but could also conceivable help.  In a years time there would be no fish to eat, much less catch.Unless of coarse you were the only one fishing.(catching .g<)   Harry Bull shit.  #1, it’s "course," not "coarse," and #2 a one fish limit will not hurt anything but the most delicate environment, say extremely small, extremely overpressured ones.  Most people, even those out for meat, just won’t bother keeping one fish.  I personally release everything, but there is nothing wrong with someone keeping one or two fish a year.    I’m so sorry my spellcheck and I didn’t catch such a huge fuck-up .I for the life of me, don’t see any reference to "one or two fish  a year." As for Bull-shit pal, ask your self is the fishing better now than it was 20 years ago or do you find planters just too challenging?   Harry

Well, OK, a two fish limit then.  It still won’t completely deplete a fishery withing one year.  So, I’m afraid it is still Bull shit.

Response:

HMI’m so sorry my spellcheck and I didn’t catch such a huge fuck-up .I HMfor the life of me, don’t see any reference to "one or two fish  a HMyear." As for Bull-shit pal, ask your self is the fishing better now HMthan it was 20 years ago or do you find planters just too challenging?     Very good Harry!  Tite Lines!, or is that Tight Lines.               ___ * UniQWK v4.2 * The Windows Mail Reader

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Well, OK, a two fish limit then.  It still won’t completely deplete a fishery withing one year.  So, I’m afraid it is still Bull shit.

A rather bold statement when removed from the context of the biological analysis of the fishery, including recruitment, fishing pressure catch rates etc.  In most cases complete or near complete depletion of a fishery is NOT an acceptable management objective.  Maybe there is a reason Tennessee isn’t known as the trout capitol of the western world….                                 Mike in PDX                "When the trout are lost, smash the state."                                            Tom McGuane

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Hey, I am interested.  I fly fish and live in Fairfield, CA.  What radio station can I get your program on.   Dean 2500 Gulf Drive Fairfield, CA  94533

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Balance with what? "A Natural Balance" would probably be achieved with NO fishing (not even C&R) to eliminate non-natural mortality.                             Mike in PDX                "When the trout are lost, smash the state."                                            Tom McGuane Take it somewhere else, Mike in PDX.  Humans are a part of nature too.

MIKE at PDX and JOSH.  I have some questions.  It may not seem that the following relates to fly fishing but it does.  This is not a= n attack.  I am fighting with many of these problems myself. Yes, Humans are a part of nature but how do you catagorize all of the synthetics that we’ve introduced into our world?  Because they=  now exist, are they natrual too?  Obviously, because they exist we can’t ignore them.  Although you don’t have to accept it, consid= er that the difference between "natural" and "synthetic" is meaningless.  Do you understand where I’m going with this?  The fact is = that we, like no other species and no human from the past, have the ability to radically change and even redefine our world.  When i= t is too cold we turn on the furnace and when it is too hot we turn on the air conditioner.  Is this magic or a gift of God?  Neithe= r, it is our ability to use the resources of our environment.  Do these resources come to us at no cost?  No again.  Our actions in = living make a direct impact on the place where we live. Do we have the moral right to ignore OUR impact on OUR world, a world that i= ncludes other inhabitants?  At one time a "natural" system included people living WITHIN the natural cycle.  Resources gleaned from = their surroundings would eventually recycle back into it.  Today, most humans are trying to step outside of this natural cycle – but=  they don’t understand that this is not possible. Many of these problems are related to the human population explosion.  There are more people competing for fewer resources than ther= e were in the past.  In a populatins attempting to live outside of the "natural" cycle this means that there is more pollution and m= ore damage to the environment.  Where once I could stand on the bank of a stream and fish in the glory of nature, now I follow the c= rowd down a well worn path to an over-fished stream.  I do not deny anyone the human right to enjoy and re-live the traditions of fi= shing but I do relish a time when life was simple, nature was wide, and when I didn’t worry about how my impact would deny others.  = Bottom line, I don’t have the luxury of ignoring the footprint I leave on the stream bank, do you? Andy (Too deep in thought for a Friday)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not only would a 1 or 2 fish limit appease those like me who sometimes like to keep some fish, but could also conceivable help. Go eat planters or go eat brookies.   IF I wanted to regularly keep fish planters would be what I kept, even tho they suck to catch and dont taste as good. In the Sierra district you can keep 10 brookies under 8" in addition to your regular limit.  There are plenty more "meat" streams in CA than there are 0 kill anyway.  Fish them if you don’t like the regs.   Why do you fish Hot Creek if you don’t like 0 kill?   No where have I said I dont like 0 limits.  Reread my messages again PLEASE!! I DO think that 0 limit is too widely used.  I think hot creek would probably be good to keep at 0 limits, but the owens which is right next to it should probably be changed to 2 fish, 14 or 16 inches and larger (with barbless hooks only) MOST of the time I do return the fish I catch, but occasionally it is nice to take home and eat a nice 17 incher you catch.  It is also nice to be able to take home trophy fish you catch on trophy streams.  Again I am not saying to always keep trophy fish, probably just the opposite, to return them %90 of the time. Of course I am a beginner so I do not catch trophy fish, but once on the owens I did have a 20 inch’ish 4 poundish’ish trout on (tired him out, then was slowly dragging him in but he straightened out the hook and got away  ).  Anyways the point is it would of been nice to be able to keep this fish IF I had landed him.

. Anyways the point is it would of been nice to be able to keep this fish IF I had landed him.<<<<<<<  I think the point is- WHY, why would you want to kill the mature stock? Surly  a  photo on the wall is better than a stuffed fish. Old trout like that don’t taste good as well. May I also point out that if we did not take fish we would not need to plant them.  I think that in time you will find that fishing and catching are light years apart. This is not meant as a flame only as an opinion from someone who long ago had a similar view as you hold today.There is a special feeling to releasing your first 7lb Brown and it is a lot different than the feel of the spine breaking.   Some times I get "Preachy"  sorry    Harry

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I think that limits are necessary and should depend on the fishing pressures on the stream.  California actually does a good job administering the limits.  Of course they have a little help from organizations like California Trout whom I applaud for their efforts. What California does a poor job on is protecting the fishing environment. Ernie Harrison

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Stuff Deleted… Of course I am a beginner so I do not catch trophy fish, but once on the owens I did have a 20 inch’ish 4 poundish’ish trout on (tired him out, then was slowly dragging him in but he straightened out the hook and got away  ).  Anyways the point is it would of been nice to be able to keep this fish IF I had landed him.

Unless you were on the special regs section of the Lower Owens (just outside of Bishop, about 25 miles south of Hot Creek) You could have kept that fish. The special regs for the Upper Owens (right next to Hot Creek as you mentioned) only apply in May and in October, the rest of the time there are regular rules. Besides, the special regs for the Upper Owens are you can only keep two fish bigger than 18 inches. Darryl Hayashida

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Everybody is so gungho on zero limits and I dont like it I want to be able to keep 1 or 2 decent sized fish to take home and eat. MORE IMPORTANTLY, talking to fish and game people who were on hot creek, leds me to believe that zero limits can be detrimental.  Not as detrimental as people taking 5 fish out, but allowing people to take a small number of fish could help out, as there can be too many fish, meaning the fish will be significantly smaller. Not only would a 1 or 2 fish limit appease those like me who sometimes like to keep some fish, but could also conceivable help.

There are ususally reasons for 0 limit waters. If you want to take a fish or two, fish waters that permit it. High country lakes often have large numbers of brookies which are delicious, especially when cooked and eaten at lakeside. Many streams also permit one or two fish limits. If they are wild trout streams, some of us choose not to take fish. Let me assur you, in rivers like Hat Creek and Fall River,  no culling is required to maintain a healthy population of large fish. BTW, how far do you live from the fishing. If you keep these fish more than a day, they don’t taste that good anyway. Be sure your ego isn’t getting in your way. George Berns Trout Live in Beautiful Places

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Everybody is so gungho on zero limits and I dont like it I want to be able to keep 1 or 2 decent sized fish to take home and eat. MORE IMPORTANTLY, talking to fish and game people who were on hot creek, leds me to believe that zero limits can be detrimental.  Not as detrimental as people taking 5 fish out, but allowing people to take a small number of fish could help out, as there can be too many fish, meaning the fish will be significantly smaller. Not only would a 1 or 2 fish limit appease those like me who sometimes like to keep some fish, but could also conceivable help.  In a years time there would be no fish to eat, much less catch.Unless of coarse you were the only one fishing.(catching .g<)   Harry Bull shit.  #1, it’s "course," not "coarse," and #2 a one fish limit will not hurt anything but the most delicate environment, say extremely small, extremely overpressured ones.  Most people, even those out for meat, just won’t bother keeping one fish.  I personally release everything, but there is nothing wrong with someone keeping one or two fish a year.  

 I’m so sorry my spellcheck and I didn’t catch such a huge fuck-up .I for the life of me, don’t see any reference to "one or two fish  a year." As for Bull-shit pal, ask your self is the fishing better now than it was 20 years ago or do you find planters just too challenging?   Harry

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You need to use a little common sense with this stuff.  If you can drive up to a river or lake in California, don’t kill any fish there, or very soon you won’t be able to drive up and catch fish there anymore.  YOU CAN"T CATCH A DEAD FISH!  There are far more people fishing in CA than there are fish to go around.  If everyone just takes one (let alone 2) the fishing will be ruined inside of a year.  If you want to keep fish, there You know that a stream wouldnt be killed in a year if there was a 2 fish limit.  There are many non planted streams that are no where near dieing with a 5 fish limit. Having 2 fish restricted areas is not nearly as detrimental as your propoganda states. Maybe others can give antecdotes to popular native fly streams that were restricted from the regular limit to 2 fish with a higher minimum size limit. For the record I do think zero limits have there place.  For instance maybe 75 percent of the current zero limit places.  I do think some should be 2 fish limited tho.

I have to agree with Shyguy.  Some places with a lot of pressure need a zero fish limit.  But some don’t.  Fisheries managers do the best they can trying to meet everyone’s needs.  If anyone ever disagrees with the limits on their waters, contact your local fisheries office.  They will listen.

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Hi Attached is a noHi: Listen to our radio show,The Fishin’ Zone, that broadcasts every Saturday morning from 6-7 am. Eastern time on 56 stations to over 500 cities in the US. We have a "troll" free number 1-800-298-8255. Call us and let’s talk some fish; or E-mail me your address and I will return mail  2 free bumper stickers that say I FISH & I VOTE for your car-boat-rod case or tackle box. We will inform you of the nearest radio station to you. Tight Lines, The Fishin’ Zone- Steve Sloante I think you will be interested in re: fishery matters.Let me know what you think! The Fishin’ Zone- Steve Sloan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Everybody is so gungho on zero limits and I dont like it I want to be able to keep 1 or 2 decent sized fish to take home and eat. MORE IMPORTANTLY, talking to fish and game people who were on hot creek, leds me to believe that zero limits can be detrimental.  Not as detrimental as people taking 5 fish out, but allowing people to take a small number of fish could help out, as there can be too many fish, meaning the fish will be significantly smaller.  In a years time there would be no fish to eat, much less catch.Unless of coarse you were the only one fishing.(catching .g<) This is not a flame but I believe you are just giving out the propoganda.  Can you give any examples of streams that have had a 2 fish limit (and maybe say at least 12 or 16 inch minimum lentgh).  And giving a example of a stream that has a 5 or more fish limit DOES NOT COUNT!!  

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Not only would a 1 or 2 fish limit appease those like me who sometimes like to keep some fish, but could also conceivable help. Go eat planters or go eat brookies.  

IF I wanted to regularly keep fish planters would be what I kept, even tho they suck to catch and dont taste as good. In the Sierra district you can keep 10 brookies under 8" in addition to your regular limit.  There are plenty more "meat" streams in CA than there are 0 kill anyway.  Fish them if you don’t like the regs.   Why do you fish Hot Creek if you don’t like 0 kill?  

No where have I said I dont like 0 limits.  Reread my messages again PLEASE!! I DO think that 0 limit is too widely used.  I think hot creek would probably be good to keep at 0 limits, but the owens which is right next to it should probably be changed to 2 fish, 14 or 16 inches and larger (with barbless hooks only) MOST of the time I do return the fish I catch, but occasionally it is nice to take home and eat a nice 17 incher you catch.  It is also nice to be able to take home trophy fish you catch on trophy streams.  Again I am not saying to always keep trophy fish, probably just the opposite, to return them %90 of the time. Of course I am a beginner so I do not catch trophy fish, but once on the owens I did have a 20 inch’ish 4 poundish’ish trout on (tired him out, then was slowly dragging him in but he straightened out the hook and got away  ).  Anyways the point is it would of been nice to be able to keep this fish IF I had landed him.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Everybody is so gungho on zero limits and I dont like it I want to be able to keep 1 or 2 decent sized fish to take home and eat. MORE IMPORTANTLY, talking to fish and game people who were on hot creek, leds me to believe that zero limits can be detrimental.  Not as detrimental as people taking 5 fish out, but allowing people to take a small number of fish could help out, as there can be too many fish, meaning the fish will be significantly smaller. Not only would a 1 or 2 fish limit appease those like me who sometimes like to keep some fish, but could also conceivable help.  In a years time there would be no fish to eat, much less catch.Unless of coarse you were the only one fishing.(catching .g<)   Harry

Bull shit.  #1, it’s "course," not "coarse," and #2 a one fish limit will not hurt anything but the most delicate environment, say extremely small, extremely overpressured ones.  Most people, even those out for meat, just won’t bother keeping one fish.  I personally release everything, but there is nothing wrong with someone keeping one or two fish a year.  

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You need to use a little common sense with this stuff.  If you can drive up to a river or lake in California, don’t kill any fish there, or very soon you won’t be able to drive up and catch fish there anymore.  YOU CAN"T CATCH A DEAD FISH!  There are far more people fishing in CA than there are fish to go around.  If everyone just takes one (let alone 2) the fishing will be ruined inside of a year.  If you want to keep fish, there

You know that a stream wouldnt be killed in a year if there was a 2 fish limit.  There are many non planted streams that are no where near dieing with a 5 fish limit. Having 2 fish restricted areas is not nearly as detrimental as your propoganda states. Maybe others can give antecdotes to popular native fly streams that were restricted from the regular limit to 2 fish with a higher minimum size limit. For the record I do think zero limits have there place.  For instance maybe 75 percent of the current zero limit places.  I do think some should be 2 fish limited tho.

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Oh, also I would like some streams to have a 2 fish limit so people can keep trophy trout.  I think the east walker has the kind of restrictions I am advocating, 2 fish limit minimum size 14 or 16 inches.   You say that 2 fish limits would kill a stream in a year.  The heavily fished east walker shows you are not being entirely truthfull!!

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This is not the case on Hot Creek.  Ever take a stream sample there?  It is ablsolutely packed with scuds, caddis, mayflies, and midges.  The fish are not stunted, but rather very healthy, wild, colorful, energetic, etc.

I would disagree with this assessment. I’ve fished Hot Creek for about 20 years or so and the fishery has declined. There are more fish but the average size has decreased. This is documented from shocking surveys. There is an abundant insect population which does support the fish to the extent that they are not stunted but the fish do not have the necessary nutrient and space requirements to grow large. The fish density is approx. 4,000 per mile in a stream approx. 30′ wide and 2′ deep!  IMHO Hot Creek is being managed as "U catch ‘em" (and release ‘em) to appease the hoards.  I for one would support a temporary slot limit to bring the stream back into a balance that would allow fewer but larger fish MT —             It’s not the bible that’s filled with contradictions,                  It’s our brains that are filled with them.                              J. Vernon McGee

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Everybody is so gungho on zero limits and I dont like it I want to be able to keep 1 or 2 decent sized fish to take home and eat. MORE IMPORTANTLY, talking to fish and game people who were on hot creek, leds me to believe that zero limits can be detrimental.  Not as detrimental as people taking 5 fish out, but allowing people to take a small number of fish could help out, as there can be too many fish, meaning the fish will be significantly smaller.  In a years time there would be no fish to eat, much less catch.Unless of coarse you were the only one fishing.(catching .g<)

This is not a flame but I believe you are just giving out the propoganda. Can you give any examples of streams that have had a 2 fish limit (and maybe say at least 12 or 16 inch minimum lentgh).  And giving a example of a stream that has a 5 or more fish limit DOES NOT COUNT!!

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In article Everybody is so gungho on zero limits and I dont like it I want to be able to keep 1 or 2 decent sized fish to take home and eat.

Cheaper and more efficient to buy at your local supermarket! MORE IMPORTANTLY, talking to fish and game people who were on hot creek, leds me to believe that zero limits can be detrimental.  Not as detrimental as people taking 5 fish out, but allowing people to take a small number of fish could help out, as there can be too many fish, meaning the fish will be significantly smaller.

Now, would these be the fish and game people who run the hatchery at the springs upstream, the seasonal creel census folks, or was it a fisheries biologist??  Zero limit can be detrimental when the carrying capacity of the water is exceeded.  A good example of this might be any of a number of brook trout lakes in the Sierra.  Unlike other trout, brookies (which are actually char not trout) don’t need a stream in which to spawn.  Wave action in the shallows of the lake is enough to aireate their eggs and hatch the fry. So, there is no natural limitation on their spawning.  Also the brookies in the Sierra mature in only 1 year and start spawning.  This can create an overpopulation.  You know you’ve come to one of these lakes when all the fish are 6"-8" long with big heads and skinny bodies.  The population has surpassed the carrying capacity of the lake.  Take some out and eat them.  You are actually helping out in this situation. This is not the case on Hot Creek.  Ever take a stream sample there?  It is ablsolutely packed with scuds, caddis, mayflies, and midges.  The fish are not stunted, but rather very healthy, wild, colorful, energetic, etc. If you are having trouble finding the big fish, they often can be found rooting scuds out of the weeds.  Easy to spot because of the tail that is causing a "riseform".  People often cast to these riseforms by mistake. tough to catch the fish though as their heads are buried in the weeds. You can also spot and catch (if you get the right drift) big fish around the upper corner of the canyon (now everyone can jam into that section so I can have the rest of the creek to myself). There are always some "big guys" hanging out in the area out from the tree.  They are also scattered throughout the rest of the stream, but your fish spotting skills have to be good to see them.  Good place to practice spotting fish. Not only would a 1 or 2 fish limit appease those like me who sometimes like to keep some fish, but could also conceivable help.

You need to use a little common sense with this stuff.  If you can drive up to a river or lake in California, don’t kill any fish there, or very soon you won’t be able to drive up and catch fish there anymore.  YOU CAN"T CATCH A DEAD FISH!  There are far more people fishing in CA than there are fish to go around.  If everyone just takes one (let alone 2) the fishing will be ruined inside of a year.  If you want to keep fish, there are lots of planted trout throughout the Mammoth Lakes/June lakes area, go for it.  Or, park your car, put on your backpack, and trek on into the Sierra to find some of those brookies.  Only take fish from a place that gets very little pressure, or find those stunted brookies.  But don’t take them out of Hot Creek. By the way, those brookies fit just great into a pan and there’s nothing quite like them for an early morning breakfast or dinner in the high country.                                                    Dan

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Everybody is so gungho on zero limits and I dont like it I want to be able to keep 1 or 2 decent sized fish to take home and eat.< Shyguy

While I’ll always appreciate some small percentage of waters reserved for C&R only, I don’t have a problem with allowing the taking of fish in other waters for those that are into that. Peaceful coexistance works better than the alternatives… Slot limits can go a long way towards reasonable management of the resource. Done correctly, the healthiest fish are left to breed (where that’s possible – not all waters support breeding and are basically put’n'takes anyway), old fish can be "retired with honors", and the number of small fish can be kept below the point where there isn’t enough forage to support them. For instance, this hypothetical/arbitrary situation: in a good size brook trout fishery where breeding *is* a realistic expectation, a slot of say 8 to 13 inches could be created. This could allow 3 or 4 small fish *below the slot* and one fish *above the slot* to be taken per rod/day. All fish in the slot would have to be released unharmed. The slot would cover the best breeders, the population of little fellers would be kept in check, and the occasional big critter could provide the ego stroke/hero shot for those that are so inclined. I know this is being done in at least a few places, but I think if allowed to spread everyone would be better off. But I’d still like to keep some small percentage of fisheries for C&R – preferably requiring single, barbless   hooks… /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.    Alpha Server Engineering  < <         "Read this and nobody gets hurt ;^)"         < <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

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Everybody is so gungho on zero limits and I dont like it

I want to be able to keep 1 or 2 decent sized fish to take home and eat.< Shyguy I say yes and no…..  It depends on the stream, the nature of the fishery, the size fish you want to kill and a zillion other things.  I can only use my home state, PA, as an example….  It probably would do no harm to a small, infertile brook trout fishery to have a reasonable level of harvest in some cases,  In others, it would. Fishery mgmt. is not a very exact science(with apologies to all you professionals out there…), and nobody really knows the majority of the answers, let alone all of them.  For example, here we have an eight fish general waters creel limit, and there are many PA streams that are managed under these regs and produce a higher biomass of wild trout than some of our specially regulated waters, where the daily creel is two (was three…) fish.  I have no idea why other than habitat, but it’s so… Although it has been a while since I looked at the files on this matter, there was a time in PA, less than 10 years ago, when almost all the waters under total catch and release had trout that maxed out at a given size (say 19.5") and they never got any bigger, even under the total protection of no kill.  These were browns, which should have the capacity to grow at least a few inches larger, given the streams and the habitat… and I don’t think anybody knows why they did not, for sure…  To that end, I sometimes wonder about the use of total no kill as a management tool (although I practice same, when possible).  Since we know far less than we need to about the dynamics of trout pops in streams, and what helps and what doesn’t, I think if we err, it should be on the side of caution. Kill the couple "decent size fish" you desire, but I  would hope that you would kill fish whose ancestors swam in narrow slots of concrete rather than wild fish…  After a stocked fish acclimates, his diet switch makes him taste just as good anyway…  RL Petri  

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Everybody is so gungho on zero limits and I dont like it I want to be able to keep 1 or 2 decent sized fish to take home and eat. MORE IMPORTANTLY, talking to fish and game people who were on hot creek, leds me to believe that zero limits can be detrimental.  Not as detrimental as people taking 5 fish out, but allowing people to take a small number of fish could help out, as there can be too many fish, meaning the fish will be significantly smaller. Not only would a 1 or 2 fish limit appease those like me who sometimes like to keep some fish, but could also conceivable help.

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Everybody is so gungho on zero limits and I dont like it I want to be able to keep 1 or 2 decent sized fish to take home and eat. MORE IMPORTANTLY, talking to fish and game people who were on hot creek, leds me to believe that zero limits can be detrimental.  Not as detrimental as people taking 5 fish out, but allowing people to take a small number of fish could help out, as there can be too many fish, meaning the fish will be significantly smaller. Not only would a 1 or 2 fish limit appease those like me who sometimes like to keep some fish, but could also conceivable help.

 In a years time there would be no fish to eat, much less catch.Unless of coarse you were the only one fishing.(catching .g<)   Harry

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Question:

check out the fly fishing page at this site.  The fly fishing info changes on a monthly basis. http://www.accelerated.com  ::::::::::::::::::::<<< INTERNETWORKING THE DESKTOP ::::::::::::::::::::  John Loschky  SPRY, Inc.                          Phone: (206) 442-8225  316 Occidental Avenue South         FAX:   (206) 447-9008      Seattle, WA  98104                  http://www.spry.com  :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Response:

check out the fly fishing page at this site.  The fly fishing info changes on a monthly basis. http://www.accelerated.com

One word: Weak <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.    Alpha Server Engineering  < <           "Read this and nobody gets hurt"           < <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

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Question:

The MERCHANT NAVY is the official name for the British merchant fleet in recognition of their losses in the World Wars. In fact there was a badge issued to mercant sailors that consists of the letters MN. — ship safety branch canadian coast guard-west vancouver

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – David Jaroslav writes:        David Hogg or Daan Sandee writes:                The UK Merchant Navy flies the Red Ensign,                a.k.a. the Red Duster, a red flag with the                Union Flag in the upper left.        That would be UK Merchant Marine; the only Navy in the UK        is the Royal Navy. To say "civilian Navy" would be an        oxymoron and merchant vessels are civilian ships. Codswallop. Merchant Navy is a legitimate term in common use. Let me quote THE OXFORD COMPANION TO SHIPS AND THE SEA:        MERCHANT NAVY, a collective name to describe the merchant        ships on the official registers of any one nation. It        embraces  merchant ships of all varieties, from passenger        liners and very large tankers and bulk carriers to small        coasters, but does not normally include vessels used in        fishing. And just to confuse matters for you guys – (and a test of your knowledge) what flag do Royal Fleet Auxilairies fly????? (RFA’s) geoff Cap’n Fido GOBLIN

I’m glad to say that on my recent trip home I bought a larger red ensign. I have always been a bit worried about whether I have the right to fly it on my California registered boat though.  I thought of writing to the Department of Trade and Industry but thought since this thread was running that I’d check out the net wisdom. So; do I, as a British citizen, have the right to fly the red ensign on an American boat?  And if so, could the British government requisition the boat in wartime? Sincerely worried, John.

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I’m glad to say that on my recent trip home I bought a larger red ensign. I have always been a bit worried about whether I have the right to fly it on my California registered boat though.  I thought of writing to the Department of Trade and Industry but thought since this thread was running that I’d check out the net wisdom. So; do I, as a British citizen, have the right to fly the red ensign on an American boat?  And if so, could the British government requisition the boat in wartime?

I’m no sea lawyer, but I believe the only illegality would be to fly the ensign of the wrong country from the customary position (mainsail leech in the case of Dr. Who) in order to falsely claim the protection of that government ("false flagging"). I believe Dr. Who is "numbered", not "registered" ("documented") in California, as I don’t imagine she admeasures the minimum of 5 tons required for documentation.  (Is she in Lloyd’s Register of Yachts?) Furthermore, if she were documented, *you* would not be allowed to own her. If numbered in California, she is a U.S. vessel regardless of her ownership. I believe Miss Manners would require that you fly from the leech only the U.S. ensign (or the U.S. Yacht Ensign).  In addition, you might fly the Red Ensign from the "courtesy ensign" position (usually the starboard spreader.) As to your last question, I think it might depend on whether Britain were at war *with the United States*. Sincerely worried, John.

May you avoid Dinty Moore Beef Stew henceforth,                  Tom Murphy Standard Disclaimer.

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JOHN S DREWERY writes:

        I’m glad to say that on my recent trip home I bought a larger         red ensign.  I have always been a bit worried about whether I         have the right to fly it on my California registered boat though.           I thought of writing to the Department of Trade and Industry but         thought since this thread was running that I’d check out the net         wisdom.         So; do I, as a British citizen, have the right to fly the red         ensign on an American boat?  And if so, could the British         government requisition the boat in wartime? You’re a bit light with caps, aren’t you old son. Try Red Ensign. Right? Might is Right. Fly it with pride. If I had a smaller one I’d fly it from the cross-trees of my GOBLIN as a Jolie Rougier – if you know what I mean.                                         Cap’n Fido, terror of the South Bay                                         GOBLIN

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And just to confuse matters for you guys – (and a test of your knowledge) what flag do Royal Fleet Auxilairies fly????? (RFA’s)

The Royal Fleet Auxilliaries fly the Blue Ensign.                      "In the long run, we’re all dead."                               -John Maynard Keynes

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The Great Aunt Maria, (my wee boat) flies a flag a bit like the Red Ensign, the Marine Flag of New Zealand: Union flag on one quarter, other three red, with 4 white stars on the fly. "Ensign" when used in the specific meaning of "A flag based on the national flag with extra bits" does not apply to the New Zealand flags, which were ensigns of a colony of the British Empire but are now "Flags" in their own right. Q: Do many other non-British countries have marine flags?

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:   : The Great Aunt Maria, (my wee boat) flies a flag a bit like the Red : Ensign, the Marine Flag of New Zealand: Union flag on one quarter, : other three red, with 4 white stars on the fly. "Ensign" when used in : the specific meaning of "A flag based on the national flag with extra : bits" does not apply to the New Zealand flags, which were ensigns of : a colony of the British Empire but are now "Flags" in their own right. : Q: Do many other non-British countries have marine flags? The Canadian Navy flies the Canadian flag (Maple leaf w/ red vertical bars on either side) on the stern.  They also fly a Canadian navy flag (ensign?) on the bow when at the dock which is sort of based on the RN white ensign, consisting of a Canadian Flag in the upper left corner and the arms of the Canadian Navy (fouled anchor, crown and maple leaves) centred on a white background. The old canadian flag was based on the red ensign with the union jack in the upper left and the Canadian arms centred on a red background.   A couple of provincial flags (Ontario and Manitoba) are based on this same theme with the respective provincial arms centred. dave — Dept. of Oceanography             QUICS:  dhazen Dalhousie University              Voice: (902) 494-3396 Halifax, NS CANADA B3H 4J1        FAX:  (902) 494-3877              Dal’s Machine – My Opinions

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… the Marine Flag of New Zealand: Union flag on one quarter, other three red, with 4 white stars on the fly. … Q: Do many other non-British countries have marine flags?

It’s not clear if you mean (currently) non-British or (ever) non-British.  In the former category is Jamaica.  Their martime flag is formed in a manner similar to New Zealand’s with a white cross and three red quarters and the Jamaican green/black civil flag in the top quarter nearest the (?)fly. Randolph Bentson

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Q: Do many other non-British countries have marine flags?

There has been a long discussiion under the headline ‘UNION JACK’. I do not have documentation available, but I think that the Union Jack is used as a marine flag only by the Queen herself. Most British registered boats use the Red Ensign. I believe that the ensign goes with the boat, because if I as Finnish citisen charter a British boat in say Cowes, I fly the Red Ensign while I use the boat. The British have two more ensigns: Blue Ensign and White Ensign. The White Ensign is quite exclusive, the use is restricted to the members of the royal family, former marine officers (perhaps there is some limit in rank) and the members of the Royal Yacht Squadron. The Blue Ensign is a bit more common, it is used by members of the Royal Cruising Club and a number of other Yacht Clubs (I believe that most of them have the prefix Royal in their name.) The ensigns come in two categories ‘faced’ and ‘defaced’, i.e. there is some symbol on the face of the ensign referring to a certain club. There are several other countries that have special marine flags. I do not have a list of them but at least U.S., Italy, Denmark and Finland have ones. In Finland each yacht club has it’s own symbol at the upper corner at the fly. The ensign is white, like the national flag, but has added to the blue cross another white cross on right onver the blue one. The ’sailor’ flag is actually older than the Finnish national flag, because when the first yacht clubs were born more than 130 years ago, Finland was a part of Russia and the sailors did not want to fly the Russian flag and they got the permission from the czar to fly a ‘club ensign’.  Anyway today this ‘club ensings’ are bona fide national flags, because all of them are approved by the parliament to be so. If I have some British subject on my boat, I can fly the Red Ensign on my port flagline. If I sail to U.K. I fly the same on my starboard flagline. If I charter a boat in some foreign country I fly the flag of the registration countty of the boat in the stern and my Finnish club flag or ensign on my port flagline. This rule should be clear, but I have a problmem: What shall I do, if I have guestos on my boat from several countries. I cannot possibly fly say, a German, Swedish, Danish and French flag of ensign on my port flag rope? – Lauri Tarkkonen

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The Great Aunt Maria, (my wee boat) flies a flag a bit like the Red Ensign, the Marine Flag of New Zealand: Union flag on one quarter, other three red, with 4 white stars on the fly. "Ensign" when used in the specific meaning of "A flag based on the national flag with extra bits" does not apply to the New Zealand flags, which were ensigns of a colony of the British Empire but are now "Flags" in their own right. Q: Do many other non-British countries have marine flags?

Perhaps ‘not derived from British practice’ would be more accurate (see India, Ireland etc) The only ones which spring to mind are the swallow-tailed ensigns based on the national flag, as used in Scandinavian vessels. Also certain yacht clubs in Belgium and the Netherlands use defaced (technical term meaning ‘bearing a badge or symbol’) national flags as ensigns. At least one Dutch yacht club appears to have a version of the White Ensign. Just to add to the previous discussion, the Red Ensign is the national maritime ensign of the UK which may be flown by a British subject in a vessel which is not otherwise required to fly some other national ensign (ie is on another register). This is exactly the same as the right of US citizens to fly the Stars and Stripes (since there is no US maritime ensign) in a US registered or an unregistered vessel. If the vessel is a registered British ship then the Red Ensign must, by law, be flown under certain circumstances (eg entering and leaving port, when in sight of other vessels). If the vessel is authorised to fly another British ensign (defaced Red, defaced Blue, Blue or White) then that ensign may replace the Red. But it is still *correct* to fly the Red Ensign and I often do so in place of the Blue of the Cruising Association when abroad, since the Red is more readily recognised by lock and bridge keepers, Customs and harbour personnel. For the origin of the Red, White and Blue Ensigns see ‘Squadronal Colours’ in the Oxford Dictionary of Ships and the Sea. More controversially, does anyone share my dislike of the bastard "European" blue ensign which has appeared on a few yachts in recent years? Brian Gay

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :   : The Great Aunt Maria, (my wee boat) flies a flag a bit like the Red : Ensign, the Marine Flag of New Zealand: Union flag on one quarter, : other three red, with 4 white stars on the fly. "Ensign" when used in : the specific meaning of "A flag based on the national flag with extra : bits" does not apply to the New Zealand flags, which were ensigns of : a colony of the British Empire but are now "Flags" in their own right. : Q: Do many other non-British countries have marine flags? The Canadian Navy flies the Canadian flag (Maple leaf w/ red vertical bars on either side) on the stern.  They also fly a Canadian navy flag (ensign?) on the bow when at the dock which is sort of based on the RN white ensign, consisting of a Canadian Flag in the upper left corner and the arms of the Canadian Navy (fouled anchor, crown and maple leaves) centred on a white background. The old canadian flag was based on the red ensign with the union jack in the upper left and the Canadian arms centred on a red background.   A couple of provincial flags (Ontario and Manitoba) are based on this same theme with the respective provincial arms centred. dave

Just a note on ceremonial here – Back when I was doing my officer of the day certification – (eventually I became a CO of a Canadian Warship) I remember studying this whole business about ensigns and such. In Canadian Warships, the national flag has been designated the Ensign. Hence it is flown from the stern. The falg at the bow is called the Jack. Hence the term Jackstaff, which is that stick up at the front. — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dept. of Oceanography             QUICS:  dhazen Dalhousie University              Voice: (902) 494-3396 Halifax, NS CANADA B3H 4J1        FAX:  (902) 494-3877             Dal’s Machine – My Opinions

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[much useful informatio non Ensigns deleted] More controversially, does anyone share my dislike of the bastard "European" blue ensign which has appeared on a few yachts in recent years?

I think the operative word is ‘bastard’.  I agree with you.  The Ensign is to designate the country under whose authority (or protection) the vessel is placed. Give me the Red Duster (or defaced Blue/White/Red) any day! — Regards, Iain  snailmail: MLB G/53a, BT Labs, Martlesham Heath, Ipswich. IP5 7RE

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Just a note on ceremonial here – Back when I was doing my officer of the day certification – (eventually I became a CO of a Canadian Warship) I remember studying this whole business about ensigns and such. In Canadian Warships, the national flag has been designated the Ensign. Hence it is flown from the stern. The falg at the bow is called the Jack. Hence the term Jackstaff, which is that stick up at the front. —

Can you explain the purpose/use of the Jack.  In the US navy it is called the Union Jack and is a square blue flag covered with white stars.  What does it mean and when is it flown?  Do only military vessels fly it? Every time I’ve seen it mentioned in a book it has piqued my interest so I read about it only to find the writer apparently knows no more about it than I do. Greg Cook

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just to add to the previous discussion, the Red Ensign is the national maritime ensign of the UK which may be flown by a British subject in a vessel which is not otherwise required to fly some other national ensign (ie is on another register). This is exactly the same as the right of US citizens to fly the Stars and Stripes (since there is no US maritime ensign) in a US registered or an unregistered vessel. If the vessel is a registered British ship then the Red Ensign must, by law, be flown under certain circumstances (eg entering and leaving port, when in sight of other vessels). If the vessel is authorised to fly another British ensign (defaced Red, defaced Blue, Blue or White) then that ensign may replace the Red. But it is still *correct* to fly the Red Ensign and I often do so in place of the Blue of the Cruising Association when abroad, since the Red is more readily recognised by lock and bridge keepers, Customs and harbour personnel.

This leads me back to the original question, and variations thereon.  If a British citizen residing in the U.S. purchases a boat which was previously a U.S. registered vessel, then that person may not maintain the U.S. registration since they are not a citizen of the U.S.  Under U.S. law, that boat must then be registered ("numbered") with the state authorities.  As a British subject, may that person then fly the Red Ensign from such a vessel?  What is the current U.K. law regarding the registration of vessels, and may that vessel be registered as a British ship?  What constitutes authorisation to fly another British ensign (defaced Red, defaced Blue, Blue or White)? — Steve Robinson in North Andover, Mass.   "Sir, you will either die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That, my lord, depends on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." John Wilkes to the Earl of Sandwich, Parliament, November 1763

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This leads me back to the original question, and variations thereon.  If a British citizen residing in the U.S. purchases a boat which was previously a U.S. registered vessel, then that person may not maintain the U.S. registration since they are not a citizen of the U.S.  Under U.S. law, that boat must then be registered ("numbered") with the state authorities.  As a British subject, may that person then fly the Red Ensign from such a vessel?  

My guess is that being "numbered" on a state register is not *official registration* and therefore the British subject may fly the Red Ensign. What is the current U.K. law regarding the registration of vessels, and may that vessel be registered as a British ship?

There are two registers – the Official Register of British Ships and the Small Ships Register. Getting your ex-US ship onto the former would be difficult and costly but the latter is straightforward – apply to SSR, DVLA, Swansea, Wales.  What constitutes authorisation to fly another British ensign (defaced Red, defaced Blue, Blue or White)?

Permits to fly other British ensigns are issued by the authorised clubs to members owning registered vessels. Brian Gay

Response:

There has been a long discussiion under the headline ‘UNION JACK’. I do not have documentation available, but I think that the Union Jack is used as a marine flag only by the Queen herself.

No. It is flown in the bows (at a jackstaff) on Royal Navy ships at anchor or moorings (when it is properly called the Union Jack). As the Union Flag it is the personal flag of an Admiral of the Fleet. Most British registered boats use the Red Ensign. I believe that the ensign goes with the boat, because if I as Finnish citisen charter a British boat in say Cowes, I fly the Red Ensign while I use the boat.

If the boat is on a British register, this is correct. If not, then whatever ensign is  allowed by the law of the charterer’s country. The British have two more ensigns: Blue Ensign and White Ensign. The White Ensign is quite exclusive, the use is restricted to the members of the royal family, former marine officers (perhaps there is some limit in rank) and the members of the Royal Yacht Squadron.

The White Ensign is reserved to the Royal Navy and the Royal Yacht Squaron. The Blue Ensign is a bit more common, it is used by members of the Royal Cruising Club and a number of other Yacht Clubs (I believe that most of them have the prefix Royal in their name.) The ensigns come in two categories ‘faced’ and ‘defaced’, i.e. there is some symbol on the face of the ensign referring to a certain club.

Yes, a number of clubs have permission to use the plain (undefaced) or defaced (with symbol) Blue Ensign. [Interesting historical stuff deleted] If I have some British subject on my boat, I can fly the Red Ensign on my port flagline.

Nice gesture, but see below If I sail to U.K. I fly the same on my starboard flagline.

A long-time custom of the sea. Some countries require this by law. If I charter a boat in some foreign country I fly the flag of the registration countty of the boat in the stern and my Finnish club flag or ensign on my port flagline.

Yes, if registered (see above) This rule should be clear, but I have a problmem: What shall I do, if I have guestos on my boat from several countries. I cannot possibly fly say, a German, Swedish, Danish and French flag of ensign on my port flag rope?

That’s the problem – to avoid international repercussions, all the national flags would have to be at the same height and of the same size. I hope to be in Finland next year or the year after, Lauri, so you can visit my boat to see that my flag etiquette is all it should be! Brian Gay

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: My guess is that being "numbered" on a state register is not *official : registration*… However, I can cite a case where a boat was purchased in England and registered in Colorado.  It carried the CO number and annual sticker.  The only "paperwork" was the usual (approx) 3" x 3" card with a few (very few) details about the boat and the owner.  That was accepted by the customs of numerous countries around the Mediterranean, and in the Canary Islands, Cape Verde Islands and Martinique.  The only time it was no longer accepted as the *official registration* was when the boat was brought back to the States and permanently berthed in another state (not CO).  When I went to the customs in Martinique, there were several French boats that had all come in at the same time.  I was a bit nervous because they all had official-looking books registering their boats and all I had was this pathetic little bit of a card from Colorado (I wasn’t even named as the owner).  But the customs accepted it without any question.  You can’t get much more *official* than that The owner was American so the boat always flew the S & S.  We did fly the Red Duster as a courtesy flag in England. B.S!

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There has been a long discussiion under the headline ‘UNION JACK’. The White Ensign is reserved to the Royal Navy and the Royal Yacht Squaron. The Blue Ensign is a bit more common, it is used by members of the Royal Cruising Club and a number of other Yacht Clubs (I believe that most of them have the prefix Royal in their name.) The ensigns come in two categories ‘faced’ and ‘defaced’, i.e. there is some symbol on the face of the ensign referring to a certain club. Yes, a number of clubs have permission to use the plain (undefaced) or defaced (with symbol) Blue Ensign.

I thought that the only club which could use an undefaced blue ensign was the Royal Southern Yacht Club in Hamble. Are there any others ? regards — Chris Cooper

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Cooper) says: I thought that the only club which could use an undefaced blue ensign was the Royal Southern Yacht Club in Hamble. Are there any others ?

Yep:  the Royal Solent Yacht Club in Yarmouth, IoW, for one. Regards, Alister

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: HMY Britannia has three masts, a jackstaff at her bow and a flagpole : at her stern. When she is under sail with HM the Queen onboard, what : flag goes where? Hm? HMY Britannia trivia: the ship’s name is not marked on any external part of the hull or superstructure. I don’t know if it is marked anywhere inside, not having been there myself. — Terry Steinford

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – David Jaroslav writes:    David Hogg or Daan Sandee writes:            The UK Merchant Navy flies the Red Ensign,            a.k.a. the Red Duster, a red flag with the            Union Flag in the upper left.    That would be UK Merchant Marine; the only Navy in the UK    is the Royal Navy. To say "civilian Navy" would be an    oxymoron and merchant vessels are civilian ships. Codswallop. Merchant Navy is a legitimate term in common use. Let me quote THE OXFORD COMPANION TO SHIPS AND THE SEA:    MERCHANT NAVY, a collective name to describe the merchant    ships on the official registers of any one nation. It    embraces  merchant ships of all varieties, from passenger    liners and very large tankers and bulk carriers to small    coasters, but does not normally include vessels used in    fishing.

And just to confuse matters for you guys – (and a test of your knowledge) what flag do Royal Fleet Auxilairies fly????? (RFA’s) geoff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cap’n Fido GOBLIN

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Here we go again. The Red Ensign is not limited to the Merchant Navy nor to the Merchant Navy + the fisherfolk which seems to define your class "Merchant Marine". All sailing and powered vessels – however small – may fly the Red Ensign (or the Blue if they are members of certain rarefied and Royal Yacht Clubs and Squadrons).

HMY Britannia is run by the Royal Navy and as such flies the White Ensign. I am fairly certain that the Blue Ensign is only flown by civilian vessels carrying ministers of the Crown, but I defer to your more expert knowledge on flag code concerning yachting. I certainly don’t see any particular reason why some clubs might not be granted permission to fly the Blue Ensign; many of their officers are reservists in the Royal Navy and as such would fly it anyway. It is a very common sight to see 16′ sailing craft flying the flag. Not, it seems, in inland waters tho’. However, for these smaller craft it seems a personal choice, a courtesy thing. It is only the Merchant Navy who are obliged to fly the flag. After all, these are documented ships which may be called upon to serve in time of war. Again, fisherfolk are not obliged – and often do not – fly the flag.

My point, at the ultimate beginning of this particular bit of vexillological discourse, was not that British fishing vessels had to fly the Red Ensign, but that they would be in the wrong (and most in violation of the law) to fly the White or Blue Ensign (or the RAF Ensign or the Trinity House Ensign or the Royal Northern Lights Commission Ensign, etc. etc.). They need not fly the flag, but if they do they are only permitted the Red Ensign. Cap’n Fido, who flies the Yacht Ensign of the US from the leech of GOBLIN Port of Redwood City

HMY Britannia has three masts, a jackstaff at her bow and a flagpole at her stern. When she is under sail with HM the Queen onboard, what flag goes where? Hm?                           "In the long run, we’re all dead."                                   -John Maynard Keynes

Response:

David Jaroslav writes:

        Francis Muir says:                 Codswallop. Merchant Navy is a legitimate term in common                 use. Let me quote THE OXFORD COMPANION TO SHIPS AND THE                 SEA:                         MERCHANT NAVY, a collective name to describe the                         merchant ships on the official registers of any                         one nation. It embraces  merchant ships of all                         varieties, from passenger liners and very large                         tankers and bulk carriers to small coasters, but                         does not normally include vessels used in fishing.         Mmm, mmm, I do love the taste of crow. Okay, I was wrong to         some extent, but I’m pretty that fishing vessels are  supposed         to fly their country’s merchant ensign. They are Merchant Marine,         but by your own definition not Merchant Navy; … Here we go again. The Red Ensign is not limited to the Merchant Navy nor to the Merchant Navy + the fisherfolk which seems to define your class "Merchant Marine". All sailing and powered vessels – however small – may fly the Red Ensign (or the Blue if they are members of certain rarefied and Royal Yacht Clubs and Squadrons). It is a very common sight to see 16′ sailing craft flying the flag. Not, it seems, in inland waters tho’. However, for these smaller craft it seems a personal choice, a courtesy thing. It is only the Merchant Navy who are obliged to fly the flag. After all, these are documented ships which may be called upon to serve in time of war. Again, fisherfolk are not obliged – and often do not – fly the flag. Cap’n Fido, who flies the Yacht Ensign of the US from the leech of GOBLIN Port of Redwood City

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Codswallop. Merchant Navy is a legitimate term in common use. Let me quote THE OXFORD COMPANION TO SHIPS AND THE SEA:        MERCHANT NAVY, a collective name to describe the merchant        ships on the official registers of any one nation. It        embraces  merchant ships of all varieties, from passenger        liners and very large tankers and bulk carriers to small        coasters, but does not normally include vessels used in        fishing. Cap’n Fido GOBLIN

Mmm, mmm, I do love the taste of crow.     Okay, I was wrong to some extent, but I’m pretty that fishing vessels are  supposed to fly their country’s merchant ensign. They are Merchant Marine, but by your own definition not Merchant Navy; my statement that the UK Merchant Marine fly the Red Ensign is still correct (not just the Merchant Navy as a subset of the Merchant Marine).                       "In the long run, we’re all dead."                                -John Maynard Keynes

Response:

David Jaroslav writes:

        David Hogg or Daan Sandee writes:                 The UK Merchant Navy flies the Red Ensign,                 a.k.a. the Red Duster, a red flag with the                 Union Flag in the upper left.         That would be UK Merchant Marine; the only Navy in the UK         is the Royal Navy. To say "civilian Navy" would be an         oxymoron and merchant vessels are civilian ships. Codswallop. Merchant Navy is a legitimate term in common use. Let me quote THE OXFORD COMPANION TO SHIPS AND THE SEA:         MERCHANT NAVY, a collective name to describe the merchant         ships on the official registers of any one nation. It         embraces  merchant ships of all varieties, from passenger         liners and very large tankers and bulk carriers to small         coasters, but does not normally include vessels used in         fishing. Cap’n Fido GOBLIN

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