Question:

Women, if you give the ring back, you will look really good for the judge. But I doubt any judge would require you to do that, since it was a gift from the husband.

In past discussions here, it came up that quite a few times the woman bought her own ring or it was a family heirloom on her side, IOW, didn’t come from the man..  

Response:

Women, if you give the ring back, you will look really good for the judge. But I doubt any judge would require you to do that, since it was a gift from the husband. In past discussions here, it came up that quite a few times the woman bought her own ring or it was a family heirloom on her side, IOW, didn’t come from the man..  

In my case I paid for the setting and we used a stone she had (grandmothers, perhaps? I don’t recall and it doesn’t matter). I didn’t get the setting back; she never offered and I never asked because I didn’t want it. The setting was indeed a gift from me to her so I feel I have no claims on it. I would not have accepted it if she had offered it to me. My ring was a custom piece of jewelry we picked out together, though I paid for it so technically it wasn’t a gift from her. I gave it back to her without thinking twice about it. The fewer things I have in my life that remind me of her the better.

Response:

Women, if you give the ring back, you will look really good for the judge. But I doubt any judge would require you to do that, since it was a gift from the husband. In past discussions here, it came up that quite a few times the woman bought her own ring or it was a family heirloom on her side, IOW, didn’t come from the man..

EVERYTHING comes from da man, silly girl!    (If you don’t believe me, ask Andre or Ronnie44dd.   Whattas a matter with you, anyway)?    :-)

Response:

Anyway, I don’t look too bad in black and white stripes and I will trust me!!!!! I would cherish the time away from him!!!

If he is this bad, you can’t leave your children to his care, I know it is tempting to get revenge on him but think of your children, they will suffer more if you went to prison.  Get out, and get your children out.  There are organisations for abused wives, get one on your side and have them help you work this out. Mandy

Response:

Lemme get this straight,…you have a stay-away order,… and you’re complaining that he never comes over? You want the house,…but you want him to repair it? I get so confused.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have until Dec 3 to survive through this. At that time, we have a sole possesion of the house hearing. My lawyer and I are also filing charges as he has blatently,gone against the civil stay away order!!!!  I am trying to stay here for my boys who are 19, 17 and 15 now. My 15 year old is having problems i.e. skipping school and smoking marijuanna. To my husband, it is all about money and making sure he will not have to give me one red cent or the house!!!  He is neglecting his boys other than to take them camping once a month or fishing. HE IS NEVER HERE EVEN ON HIS DAYS OFF!!! I believe he is abusing his children by not being here and also not doing one thing in this house at all!!!  (and I am talking about necessary repairs!) He thinks he is doing that to spite me, but it is effecting them as well!!!! He said to me last night that "He can’t believe I am still here!" because he knows he has done and said almost everything possible short of just coming out and killing me. Little does he know he almost has. He wants me to break! He knows I cant stand my house to be litterally filthy and it is daily! He wont tell the boys to do anything, because he wants to remain the good guy AT ALL TIMES!  He loves it when I get into an argument with them…becuase he feels that it is pushing them to his side!!!! He wanted me  , no he begged me to go to work, and now he is using that against me also with the kids! Last night he even said all I was doing was running up the lawyers bill! Meanwhile, I took him off my flight privledges (so he can no longer fly for free) and now he is trying to hold me in contempt of court as he filed a cross order after I did about taking me and the children off his insurance (which he threatened to do!)  These are flight privledges and if someone is on a flight and drinks too much or makes even a wierd comment or is loud, I know of employees who have lost their free flights and some who have even been fired. My lawyer wants me to put him back on just because and I say no way!!!!! He will try and do something more to me and that would be just about it!!!!!!   Why should I let him fly for free, when he took away my means of transportation…. I DONT THINK SO!!! Anyway, I don’t look too bad in black and white stripes and I will trust me!!!!! I would cherish the time away from him!!!

Response:

The real abuse here is the abuse that you did to yourself by staying so long.  I hope you can learn to love yourself as much as you deserve. bogey – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How about????? Blocking you in the bathroom and kitchen under protest…not letting you out until you scream for help. How about???? Throwing coffee mugs and bottles at you How about???? Pushing you down with your body and punching you several times in the arm, back and face. Then forceably having sex with you like an ANIMAL the next night. How about??? Trying to sleep and he would wake me up with his (*&(&**(& trying to put it in while I was asleep!!! and then when I would leave to try to get sleep, he told me I wasnt allowed back in the room until I was ready to have sex with How about???? Forceably taking car keys away from you and telling you you will never drive this car again How about??? Stalking you at work and when he cant find you, driving irratically, knocking down a light pole and getting your car stuck on the cement holder. Then he came to where I work and started screaming at me and that was monitored by a supervisor in a security hallway!!! How about??? Telling your kids, your friends, and your mother you are a whore!!!! He even told the police when I called them that I was having an on going affair!!!! How about??? Taking the circut breaker out of the AC on a 90 degree day and going away for a few days and taking the timer off a whirlpool tub so you cant enjoy a 12 minute soak. How about???? Telling you and your children that you are not doing one more thing in the house until you find out if its yours and allowing the ceiling to fall in in the dining room and not even clean it up or even pick up your dirty underwear in the bathroom or do one dish,etc etc etc. Tonight he even said to me he cant believe I am still here!!!!!! because he told me to get ready for round two…. I may not survive!!!!! How about??? Telling your wife, a stay at home mom for ten years, and his children, that He was the bread winner and I did nothing for ten years but putsy around the house!!! and HOW ABOUT now after ten years of me taking care of the children totally because he worked shifts that all of a sudden now that we are getting divorced…he can get a daylight job????? Told me just wait and see who gets cutody!!!!!! How about??? Daily verbal abuse about how I look when I go to work!!!!! How about??? Him telling my sons I got a lawyer and I am jacking up his bill with what I am I am sorry….I just cant take it anymore…I had to vent here….

Response:

Leaving ======= General guidelines for leaving a spouse in the US. So you decided to end the marriage and are leaving the house. When it comes time to leave, there are certain things you should do in a certain order, to avoid confrontations with or violence from the spouse. Here’s how to do it. Some rules to follow when doing all these things: – Be polite when working with your spouse – Be fair. Take only 1/2 of what you both own. – It may be a good idea to buy a cassette recorder and put it in your shirt pocket when talking with your spouse. This is not usually admissable in court but it will give you some leverage against the spouse if they are acting loony, violent, or unfair. If the judge asks "Do you have proof your spouse is a loony?" you can mention the tapes. – If you think the spouse will get violent, call the police. Hide around the corner and when they come to the house, then go to the house. Tell the police you need them to watch your spouse while you pack. – If the spouse attacks you (even if a wife attacks a man) MAKE A POLICE REPORT. If you don’t have proof (a police report), it will not help you. Finding an apartment Make your budget. Find out the net amount of your paycheck you bring home each month (after taxes, you can’t spend the taxes, can you?). Now subtract rent, car insurance, phone, utilities, gas, food, clothes, entertainment, and any other expenses you can think of. If you have money left over, you are doing good. If not, find places to trim expense, like don’t go to the movies, cancel cable/satellite, don’t go out to eat, eat in instead, buy a cheaper car. Now find a cheap apartment and sign a lease. Packing up – You will need to get your names off credit cards VERY quickly, that means moving out first. – Try to pack your most valuable things first, like cash, life insurance policies, stock policies, records for your bank accounts, IRAs, and other retirement accounts. Make sure you pack some pens, pencils and a notebook, you will need these later. If you have joint accounts, take the papers, copy them at the library or somewhere else, then return them to the house. – Try to pack when the other spouse is not there, like when they are not at work, or when they are shopping. Have a friend along with a video camera in case they come home early. Hide your car around the block (it could be seen down the street so don’t hide it there) or use a friends car that is not well known. Pack your stuff in the friend’s car then transfer it to your car in a place the spouse does not go. – Remember to pack a suit, you will need it for court proceedings. Assets ====== Decide what possessions to take with you. Generally the state will divide up all the assets so each spouse gets an equal share based on the current sale value of the asset (like if you sold it at a garage sale). The person who gets the house gets the value of the equity of the house, so they will get a lot less other things. Equity is the assessed value of the house minus the loan amount. It is NOT the value of the house plus the amount you spent to improve it. Generally the state allows you to keep what you had before the marriage, and allows you to keep gifts that were only to you, but this is still part of the "equal share" that the two of you get. Women, if you give the ring back, you will look really good for the judge. But I doubt any judge would require you to do that, since it was a gift from the husband. DON’T DO THE NEXT STEPS UNTIL YOU’RE ALL PACKED UP and moved out. Separating Finances The basic finance separation is in several groups: – Assets – Bank accounts – Credit cards/debit card – Retirement accounts – Loans/mortgages 1. Bank accounts First, get your own account, have the statements mailed to work or a trusted friend’s house. You don’t want these new statements discovered by the soon to be ex (STBX). When that is final, figure out what half of the cash assets would be (include all money markets, savings and checking accounts, not retirement or IRA accounts). Take half the cash and put it into your new account. Take your name off the accounts if possible. If you need their signature to do this, call a lawyer and find out if there’s another way to do this. 2. Credit Cards People often run up huge debts on credit cards in anger. First, try to take your name off all credit cards. I was the primary holder of a credit card, which meant I could put my wife’s name on it, and take it off. She couldn’t do anything. If you’re not the primary holder, AND you can’t get your name off a credit card, talk to a lawyer and find out what can be done. If you can’t do that, lower the limit on every credit card to the minimum. You should be able to do this alone, but then again the spouse could raise it up again by themselves. Talk to the CC company to find out who can do what. Try to freeze the cards so no one can use them and tell the CC company you’ve seen suspicious activity on the cards or you think you’re identity has been stolen. As a last resort, cancel the cards if necessary, but TELL THE SPOUSE. You will look bad to the judge if you don’t tell them. Send them a letter so you have paper proof that you told them. 3. Retirement accounts Just start by taking your IRA papers with you. You can sort it all out later in court. Let the other spouse keep their retirement account. 4. Loans/mortgages I don’t know how these are handled. But if you keep your name on the loan you ARE responsible for it, whether you are divorced, separated or not. Try to get your name off the mortgage, but NOT off the title to the house. This is so the other can’t default on the mortgage and ruin your credit. The Car ======= If you each have a car, take the one that you use the most. If you have one car between you, the working spouse will generally get the car. Should you buy a new one? Generally, no, unless you just purchased a brand new car in the past year. Calculate the net worth of the car will help you. Net worth=Value of the car (get it from Kelly Blue Book on the web) – any loan outstanding. Here’s an example. Car A: bought 2 years ago, valued at $15,000, loan left is $13,000, so net worth is $2000. Basically, you have $13,000 in loans to pay off. If you can’t afford it, get a used car worth less than $13,000, say around $7000. Try to make small payments. This will cause you to pay more interest over the life of the loan, but you really need the cash right now. Car B: bought 5 years ago, valued at $5000, no loan outstanding. Net worth is $5000. This is the best deal, since you have no car payment in this case. Car C: new car bought last year, valued at $24,000, loan left: $25,000, net worth=-$1000. Even though this has a net worth, you still have $25,000 left in loans to pay. This is a bad deal because if you sell the car you will still have to pay $1000 to cover the loan and you will not get any money back because it has a negative net worth. Your best bet is to get a $7000 car, pay the extra $1000. Insurance for the used car will be less than for the new car anyway. What will make you look good to the judge: – If you are fair to the other spouse. (Divide assets equally. Don’t take their favorite baseball card collection just to be mean.) – If you don’t hit them, threaten them or damage their property. – If you don’t show bizarre behavior (like damaging the other’s property) – If you keep the spouse informed, like when you cancel the credit cards. – Getting the kids out of a violent home. (You must have PROOF of this violence as a recording, or police report.) What will make you look bad: – Not going to counseling when the spouse does. – Being unfair. – Being angry in court. – If you have a serious illness, like cancer, it will really reduce your chances to get the kids. – If you have a serious illness, like depression, which is not being treated, you will have a lesser chance to get the kids. – Doing drugs. – Having a police record. – Being known as the "one who’s always screaming" by the neighbors. – Having boy/girlfriends before the divorce is final. – Trying to hide assets from the spouse. – Having an affair during the marriage. (Shows lack of commitment.) – Not being real involved with the kids. – If you don’t have a job. – If you have trouble holding a job. Abuse claims Filing a false abuse claim is now illegal in some states, and it is even enforced sometimes. Find out the status of false abuse claims, perhaps by calling the police department. — "Tis better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

Response:

Lemme get this straight,…you have a stay-away order,… and you’re complaining that he never comes over? You want the house,…but you want him to repair it? I get so confused. We are still in the same house!!!! They would not give me an extendended PFA against him. He filed a counter and said I was acting irrationally…NO WONDER….but I am not acting irrationally other than being here taking his constant harrasment. THE ONLY REASON I STAY IS BECAUSE MY CHILDREN WANT TO LIVE IN THE HOUSE!!!!!  He could repair the house, FOR THE CHILDREN! It’s not or at least shouldnt be ALL REVENGE AGAINST

ME!!!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lemme get this straight,…you have a stay-away order,… and you’re complaining that he never comes over? You want the house,…but you want him to repair it? I get so confused. We are still in the same house!!!! They would not give me an extendended PFA against him. He filed a counter and said I was acting irrationally…NO WONDER….but I am not acting irrationally other than being here taking his constant harrasment. THE ONLY REASON I STAY IS BECAUSE MY CHILDREN WANT TO LIVE IN THE HOUSE!!!!!  He could repair the house, FOR THE CHILDREN! It’s not or at least shouldnt be ALL REVENGE AGAINST ME!!!

SO QUIT YOUR BITCHIN, AND JUST SUE THEIR ASS!!    IT’S THE LATEST NEWAGE FAD….     GO FOR THE GOLD…. "DONT WORK IT OUT……JUST SUE IT OUT!!!" (TM @BH.  ALL RIGHTS RESERVED)

Response:

"DONT WORK IT OUT……JUST SUE IT OUT!!!" (TM @BH.  ALL RIGHTS RESERVED)

This could be a winner,…do you have an agent? …nevermind,…they’re all lawyers.

Response:

It’s no wonder why women put up and shut up with comments like these!

SO QUIT YOUR BITCHIN, AND JUST SUE THEIR ASS!!    IT’S THE LATEST NEWAGE FAD….     GO FOR THE GOLD…. "DONT WORK IT OUT……JUST SUE IT OUT!!!" (TM @BH.  ALL RIGHTS RESERVED) This could be a winner,…do you have an agent? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -…nevermind,…they’re all lawyers.

Response:

IF your children want to stay in the house regardless of the fact that he is mean to you then something is wrong. IF you want to stay in the house regardless of what HE is doing to YOU then there is something VERY WRONG!!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s no wonder why women put up and shut up with comments like these! SO QUIT YOUR BITCHIN, AND JUST SUE THEIR ASS!!    IT’S THE LATEST NEWAGE FAD….     GO FOR THE GOLD…. "DONT WORK IT OUT……JUST SUE IT OUT!!!" (TM @BH.  ALL RIGHTS RESERVED) This could be a winner,…do you have an agent? …nevermind,…they’re all lawyers.

Response:

Huh?  How can you even think this about the man you just previously described? I think *you* would be abusive by letting him near your kids. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I believe he is abusing his children by not being here

Response:

Lemme get this straight,…you have a stay-away order,… and you’re complaining that he never comes over? You want the house,…but you want him to repair it? I get so confused.

We are still in the same house!!!! They would not give me an extendended PFA against him. He filed a counter and said I was acting irrationally…NO WONDER….but I am not acting irrationally other than being here taking his constant harrasment. THE ONLY REASON I STAY IS BECAUSE MY CHILDREN WANT TO LIVE IN THE HOUSE!!!!!  He could repair the house, FOR THE CHILDREN! It’s not or at least shouldnt be ALL REVENGE AGAINST ME!!!

Response:

I have until Dec 3 to survive through this. At that time, we have a sole possesion of the house hearing. My lawyer and I are also filing charges as he has blatently,gone against the civil stay away order!!!!  I am trying to stay here for my boys who are 19, 17 and 15 now. My 15 year old is having problems i.e. skipping school and smoking marijuanna. To my husband, it is all about money and making sure he will not have to give me one red cent or the house!!!  He is neglecting his boys other than to take them camping once a month or fishing. HE IS NEVER HERE EVEN ON HIS DAYS OFF!!! I believe he is abusing his children by not being here and also not doing one thing in this house at all!!!  (and I am talking about necessary repairs!) He thinks he is doing that to spite me, but it is effecting them as well!!!!  He said to me last night that "He can’t believe I am still here!" because he knows he has done and said almost everything possible short of just coming out and killing me. Little does he know he almost has. He wants me to break! He knows I cant stand my house to be litterally filthy and it is daily! He wont tell the boys to do anything, because he wants to remain the good guy AT ALL TIMES!  He loves it when I get into an argument with them…becuase he feels that it is pushing them to his side!!!! He wanted me  , no he begged me to go to work, and now he is using that against me also with the kids! Last night he even said all I was doing was running up the lawyers bill! Meanwhile, I took him off my flight privledges (so he can no longer fly for free) and now he is trying to hold me in contempt of court as he filed a cross order after I did about taking me and the children off his insurance (which he threatened to do!)  These are flight privledges and if someone is on a flight and drinks too much or makes even a wierd comment or is loud, I know of employees who have lost their free flights and some who have even been fired. My lawyer wants me to put him back on just because and I say no way!!!!! He will try and do something more to me and that would be just about it!!!!!!   Why should I let him fly for free, when he took away my means of transportation…. I DONT THINK SO!!! Anyway, I don’t look too bad in black and white stripes and I will trust me!!!!! I would cherish the time away from him!!!

Response:

I can not understand why you take all that shit. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How about????? Blocking you in the bathroom and kitchen under protest…not letting you out until you scream for help. How about???? Throwing coffee mugs and bottles at you How about???? Pushing you down with your body and punching you several times in the arm, back and face. Then forceably having sex with you like an ANIMAL the next night. How about??? Trying to sleep and he would wake me up with his (*&(&**(& trying to put it in while I was asleep!!! and then when I would leave to try to get sleep, he told me I wasnt allowed back in the room until I was ready to have sex with How about???? Forceably taking car keys away from you and telling you you will never drive this car again How about??? Stalking you at work and when he cant find you, driving irratically, knocking down a light pole and getting your car stuck on the cement holder. Then he came to where I work and started screaming at me and that was monitored by a supervisor in a security hallway!!! How about??? Telling your kids, your friends, and your mother you are a whore!!!! He even told the police when I called them that I was having an on going affair!!!! How about??? Taking the circut breaker out of the AC on a 90 degree day and going away for a few days and taking the timer off a whirlpool tub so you cant enjoy a 12 minute soak. How about???? Telling you and your children that you are not doing one more thing in the house until you find out if its yours and allowing the ceiling to fall in in the dining room and not even clean it up or even pick up your dirty underwear in the bathroom or do one dish,etc etc etc. Tonight he even said to me he cant believe I am still here!!!!!! because he told me to get ready for round two…. I may not survive!!!!! How about??? Telling your wife, a stay at home mom for ten years, and his children, that He was the bread winner and I did nothing for ten years but putsy around the house!!! and HOW ABOUT now after ten years of me taking care of the children totally because he worked shifts that all of a sudden now that we are getting divorced…he can get a daylight job????? Told me just wait and see who gets cutody!!!!!! How about??? Daily verbal abuse about how I look when I go to work!!!!! How about??? Him telling my sons I got a lawyer and I am jacking up his bill with what I am I am sorry….I just cant take it anymore…I had to vent here….

Response:

How about????? Blocking you in the bathroom and kitchen under protest…not letting you out until you scream for help. How about???? Throwing coffee mugs and bottles at you How about???? Pushing you down with your body and punching you several times in the arm, back and face. Then forceably having sex with you like an ANIMAL the next night. How about??? Trying to sleep and he would wake me up with his (*&(&**(& trying to put it in while I was asleep!!! and then when I would leave to try to get sleep, he told me I wasnt allowed back in the room until I was ready to have sex with How about???? Forceably taking car keys away from you and telling you you will never drive this car again How about??? Stalking you at work and when he cant find you, driving irratically, knocking down a light pole and getting your car stuck on the cement holder. Then he came to where I work and started screaming at me and that was monitored by a supervisor in a security hallway!!! How about??? Telling your kids, your friends, and your mother you are a whore!!!! He even told the police when I called them that I was having an on going affair!!!! How about??? Taking the circut breaker out of the AC on a 90 degree day and going away for a few days and taking the timer off a whirlpool tub so you cant enjoy a 12 minute soak. How about???? Telling you and your children that you are not doing one more thing in the house until you find out if its yours and allowing the ceiling to fall in in the dining room and not even clean it up or even pick up your dirty underwear in the bathroom or do one dish,etc etc etc. Tonight he even said to me he cant believe I am still here!!!!!! because he told me to get ready for round two…. I may not survive!!!!! How about??? Telling your wife, a stay at home mom for ten years, and his children, that He was the bread winner and I did nothing for ten years but putsy around the house!!! and HOW ABOUT now after ten years of me taking care of the children totally because he worked shifts that all of a sudden now that we are getting divorced…he can get a daylight job????? Told me just wait and see who gets cutody!!!!!! How about??? Daily verbal abuse about how I look when I go to work!!!!! How about??? Him telling my sons I got a lawyer and I am jacking up his bill with what I am I am sorry….I just cant take it anymore…I had to vent here….

Response:

Once again, here’s the Merriam-Webster Dictionary definition of "abuse": Main Entry: abuse      Pronunciation: &-’by

Question:

The real cowards of America today are two houses of government that need total replacement for allowing this fool occupy the highest office in this land.  Is there no way to stop this criminal and his hooligans?         of course, george:  capital punishment.  surely you have noticed that it has solved all our other problems. wayno

____  I’m on your side Wayne.  I’m not one of "those".  Preaching to the wrong dude.  How goes you and Anthony fly fishing? — — MrG/American Sportsman http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html http://www.gink.com/rod_facts/bastardjun00.html  LATEST BAMBOO FACTS "the saga continues"

Response:

                           Tom Littleton

I would rather have the chaos of Buchanan than the stupidity of Bush or the traitorship of Gore.  At least Buchanan would have our southern borders shut down by now and there would be a real war against narcotics.  I’d be willing to try just four years with that gentleman. At least he has Presidential stature and a moral ethnic that would clean house.  I mean, CLEAN HOUSE!  That alone will take four years.  Need a shit kicker that has some brains and a strong will that, as you complained about, "Thinks for Himself!" — — MrG/American Sportsman http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html http://www.gink.com/rod_facts/bastardjun00.html  LATEST BAMBOO FACTS "the saga continues"

Response:

What is "queer mongering?" Shawn,A Long Island Layabout

Response:

What is "queer mongering?" Shawn,A Long Island Layabout

I cetainly hope it’s not like fish mongering, but with queers. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Mr.G/American Sportsman wrote  Is there no way to stop this criminal and his hooligans? No.  Give it up. —                                                       -dnc-

Response:

Flypaint wrote What is "queer mongering?"

Mongering in an unconventional fashion? —                                                       -dnc-

Response:

What is "queer mongering?" Shawn,A Long Island Layabout

Ask G, I’m sure he’s an expert on the subject. — Charlie…

Response:

At least he has Presidential stature and a moral ethnic that would clean house.  I mean, CLEAN HOUSE! MrG/American Sportsman

So just which "ethnic" will Mr. Buchannan be using to clean his house ? I can’t imagine any "ethnic" wanting to work for a man with his views. Bob Smith Before you buy.

Response:

Bob Smith writes: At least he has Presidential stature and a moral ethnic that would clean house.  I mean, CLEAN HOUSE! MrG/American Sportsman So just which "ethnic" will Mr. Buchannan be using to clean his house ? I can’t imagine any "ethnic" wanting to work for a man with his views. Bob Smith

Come on, Bob.  It’s those "moral" ethnics as opposed to those immoral ones. <g Jo and I flew from D.C. to Boston on a Sunday morning a few years ago. Buchannan and his wife were the only other passengers in first class.  They sat directly opposite us.  Every time I looked at him, he was staring at my wife and then me.  I never spoke or gave any indication that I knew who he was. Probably pissed off the nazi bastard.  His wife seemed very nice, however. Dave LaCourse

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bob Smith writes: At least he has Presidential stature and a moral ethnic that would clean house.  I mean, CLEAN HOUSE! MrG/American Sportsman So just which "ethnic" will Mr. Buchannan be using to clean his house ? I can’t imagine any "ethnic" wanting to work for a man with his views. Bob Smith Come on, Bob.  It’s those "moral" ethnics as opposed to those immoral ones. <g Jo and I flew from D.C. to Boston on a Sunday morning a few years ago. Buchannan and his wife were the only other passengers in first class.  They sat directly opposite us.  Every time I looked at him, he was staring at my wife and then me.  I never spoke or gave any indication that I knew who he was. Probably pissed off the nazi bastard.  His wife seemed very nice, however. Dave LaCourse

You aren’t telling me "gasp" that you and your wife are of diferrent races or something are you ? That or he’s a perv who openly oggles another mans wife.I guess he’d glare at me and Liz. When Liz is tan her Cherokee ancestry really stands out. And she ain’t hard to look at ! It’s gonna be an interesting 4 months. A buddy of mine is moving to England and staying with family there if Gore gets elected. Says he couldn’t take 4 more years of the " Clinton Regime " and he has an option. Lucky bastard. Bob Before you buy.

Response:

______  The problem is the American People are too stupid to realize that the Federal Reserve and the powers that be are presenting them two candidates that shouldn’t even be voted in as dog catchers!  You dumb shits! What you need to do is write in someone that loves guns and hates people sneaking into the United States illegally. Among other things, the Office needs a person of high moral standard. Kick the narcotic using bastards out! The rest of you need to get a life! — MrG/American Sportsman http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html http://www.gink.com/rod_facts/bastardjun00.html  LATEST BAMBOO FACTS "the saga continues"

Response:

You called it. By the way, most people are too stupid to realize the Mayans invented television and that Atlantis is in fact now Atlanta. Peace love and understanding…or not. Alex

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ______  The problem is the American People are too stupid to realize that the Federal Reserve and the powers that be are presenting them two candidates that shouldn’t even be voted in as dog catchers!  You dumb shits! What you need to do is write in someone that loves guns and hates people sneaking into the United States illegally. Among other things, the Office needs a person of high moral standard. Kick the narcotic using bastards out! The rest of you need to get a life! — MrG/American Sportsman http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html http://www.gink.com/rod_facts/bastardjun00.html  LATEST BAMBOO FACTS "the saga continues"

Response:

I’ve always been impressed with their cast-rate. alex

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is "queer mongering?" Shawn,A Long Island Layabout I cetainly hope it’s not like fish mongering, but with queers. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Or, the old old saying: ya can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mr.G/American Sportsman wrote  Is there no way to stop this criminal and his hooligans? No.  Give it up. —                                                       -dnc-

Response:

Boy, this is a new twist. Queer mongering? I thought the problem was Clinton was hetero. Well slap me dumb and call me senseless, the whole thing makes sense now. Face it: Clinton’s problem is that he kicked the moribund Republican assholes out of office and managed the country into prosperity. He did it thru fiscal conservatism, fighting off the regulators, reforming welfare, giving high tech the freedom to blossom and giving the American working stiff half a break. Along the way a whole new segment of America’s creative people got rich. Its the old guard and their wanna-bees, and their campfollowers, who hate his ass the most. He had the audacity to steal the few good ideas the Rs had and it makes them furious. That, and of course his blowjob, and probably the fact that he is a Southern populist. They hated Carter too, as much for his accent as anything. Maybe someone can remind me just when  and who was the last R pres  who gave half a shit for working people in this country. The Rs had a chance with McCain. I would have overlooked some of his repub claptrap (I do it all the time with goofy Dem ideas) and voted for him just because he came off as honest and his own man. Instead the money boys gave the nomination to a clown that makes Gore look like a paragon of competence. So I’ll be voting "D" this year because , in spite of all their nonsense, at least their dime’s worth of difference is on the side of the working people and creative minds of this country. Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is "queer mongering?" Shawn,A Long Island Layabout Ask G, I’m sure he’s an expert on the subject. — Charlie…

Response:

Face it: Clinton’s problem is that he kicked the moribund Republican assholes out of office and managed the country into prosperity. He did it thru fiscal conservatism, fighting off the regulators, reforming welfare, giving high tech the freedom to blossom and giving the American working stiff half a break. Along the way a whole new segment of America’s creative people got rich.

Nah. It was all due to Alan Greenspan. Maybe someone can remind me just when  and who was the last R pres  who gave half a shit for working people in this country.

Abraham Lincoln? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Boy, this is a new twist. Queer mongering? I thought the problem was Clinton was hetero. It was the military issue David.  

George is just upset because they let fruitcakes like himself into the military.      - Ken

Response:

Am I the only person in the United States that notices the many different colors of hair Bill Clinton wears from day to day?  It ranges from a dark sandy to regular sandy hair to light gray hair, until today when it suddenly turned totally WHITE!  Who are the makeup artists that are doing this whitewash job with a lame duck lying, two faced, queer mongering, dope smoking, draft dodging, traitor of the United States who gives China our military secrets, bastard?!   The real cowards of America today are two houses of government that need total replacement for allowing this fool occupy the highest office in this land.  Is there no way to stop this criminal and his hooligans? MrG/American Sportsman "the saga continues"

Response:

The real cowards of America today are two houses of government that need total replacement for allowing this fool occupy the highest office in this land.  Is there no way to stop this criminal and his hooligans?

If you find a answer/solution to this one, you got my vote.  A lot of people my age are fed up with the business as usual, self-serving, pork barrel politics that we have witnessed all of our lives.  Maybe in the near future the X’ers will clean house, who knows. I look at roff and I think at times I could build the perfect President by taking bits and pieces of people here.  At times I find the best of people here can match those found anywhere else.   Take a little of  Wayno’s diplomacy, ET1&2’s attitude, RW’s touchy feeling stuff (or his stock market knowledge, perhaps both), a little LaCourse for his arboriculture and knowledge of pets for the White House (baaa-d),  a lot of Mike C for his way with words, vast knowledge base and willingness to help, a little Dave S to say what needs to be said, a little Vern for his innocence and honesty, a little Opie for his sense of humor, and a little Mr G because we need someone who is crazy enough to actually do the things that need to be done. I could go on and on and on but this was too long as it is.  If I didn’t mention you, don’t worry because  I didn’t forget you.  I just wanted to make sure I didn’t put anyone to sleep as I made the list.  Frank, Wayne, Frank, Steve, Levi, Jon, John, Peter and the rest of you that I didn’t mention, I will some other time because you all have ingredients for the recipe. Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

The real cowards of America today are two houses of government that need total replacement for allowing this fool occupy the highest office in this land.  Is there no way to stop this criminal and his hooligans?

        of course, george:  capital punishment.  surely you have noticed that it has solved all our other problems. wayno

Response:

Take a little of  Wayno’s diplomacy, ET1&2’s attitude,

        if you equip our candidate with the evil twins’ attitude, you are gonna need a helluva lot more diplomacy than i can summon to save the campaign from an early demise!         wayno, whose campaign slogan is "two pots for every garage"

Response:

George writes: The real cowards of America today are two houses of government that need total replacement for allowing this fool occupy the highest office in this land.  Is there no way to stop this criminal and his hooligans?

Given a 40 percent voter turnout for the last couple of Presidential elections, the houses that need to wake up would not seem to the houses of Congress, George. Look what apathy has given us for a field this year!  Two major party candidates who both seem incapable of independent thought, a Green party candidate that often seems unaware of his own party’s agenda and Buchanan(Nazi Lite). Yeesh!                            Tom Littleton

Response:

Am I the only person in the United States that notices the many different colors of hair Bill Clinton wears from day to day?  It ranges from a dark sandy to regular sandy hair to light gray hair, until today when it suddenly turned totally WHITE!  Who are the makeup artists that are doing this whitewash job with a lame duck lying, two faced, queer mongering, dope smoking, draft dodging, traitor of the United States who gives China our military secrets, bastard?!

Maybe he hired Ronald Reagan’s hairdresser. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Maybe he hired Ronald Reagan’s hairdresser.

Krylon or Rustoleum? — Charlie…

Response:

if you equip our candidate with the evil twins’ attitude, you are gonna need a helluva lot more diplomacy than i can summon to save the campaign from an early demise!

I don’t know.  I think people are ready for something new.  Someone who will say what needs to be said instead of what they think we need to hear.  Besides, they have been pretty quiet lately and you have been very diplomatic <g Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

Question:

If you check your history the British got thier first Enigma cipher machine from the Polish army. The Polish language is enough of an enigma to me.   My in-laws may as well be speaking in secret code. Joe F. (Foregoing the obvious humor opportunities)

It’s all Navajo to me. Wolfgang who is STILL studying for the Turing test!

Response:

It’s all Navajo to me.

Ah yes *our* "Enigma machine" against the Japanese. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

rw wrote It’s a darn good thing for you Brits that an American submarine crew captured the Enigma cipher machine from a German U-boat. I saw it in a movie.

Obviously, you didn’t pay attention.  At the end of the movie they displayed the actual events that were the basis of the story. There were three such missions and the first two were run by the British. The American mission did not occur until after D-day, as I recall. —                                                       -dnc-

Response:

Wolfgang wrote Wolfgang who is STILL studying for the Turing test!

You mean to tell me that all of this patter comes from a machine. (The bad jokes are a brilliant strategy…congratulations.  Who programmed you?)

Response:

Wolfgang wrote Wolfgang who is STILL studying for the Turing test! You mean to tell me that all of this patter comes from a machine. (The bad jokes are a brilliant strategy…congratulations.  Who programmed you?)

I could answer that question, but what reason would you have to believe me? Wolfgang riding the razor’s edge between a paradox and a conundrum

Response:

Wolfgang wrote Wolfgang wrote Wolfgang who is STILL studying for the Turing test! You mean to tell me that all of this patter comes from a machine. (The bad jokes are a brilliant strategy…congratulations.  Who programmed you?) I could answer that question, but what reason would you have to believe

me? Faith in my fellow machine? —                                                       -dnc-

Response:

Wolfgang wrote Wolfgang who is STILL studying for the Turing test! You mean to tell me that all of this patter comes from a machine. (The bad jokes are a brilliant strategy…congratulations.  Who programmed you?) I could answer that question, but what reason would you have to believe me?

Is your name really Eliza? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

rw wrote It’s a darn good thing for you Brits that an American submarine crew captured the Enigma cipher machine from a German U-boat. I saw it in a movie. Obviously, you didn’t pay attention.  At the end of the movie they displayed the actual events that were the basis of the story. There were three such missions and the first two were run by the British. The American mission did not occur until after D-day, as I recall. —                                                       -dnc-

Really? Gosh, I must have been trying to beat the crowd to the parking lot. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Is your name really Eliza?

Eliza Lott?

Response:

… who is STILL studying for the Turing test!

would that be the non-sequiTUR test?? jeff (offering guided flyfishing sequi tours and non-sequi tours in the nc mountains)

Response:

Is your name really Eliza? Eliza Lott?

More like Eliza Little. Eliza was the first computer program that passed an "operational" turing test, IMHO. It was created in the 60’s by a famous computer scientist whose name I forget. It mimiced a psychiatrist who turned everything you said back into a question. Eliza’s creator was so appalled when people started talking (i.e. typing) to this rudimentary, stupid program that he spent the rest of his career attacking Artificial Intelligence, which always stuck me as odd. I see Eliza as a spoof of psychiatry. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

 Most of the vets would be in their 80’s is probably the answer. —  Don Thompson  Zoomie(BushBug)  ACA#3460  TLCB#335  Any Time, Any Place  Pull the chocks, lets get this kite in the air.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hats off to them, and a question: why the last time?

Response:

Most of the vets would be in their 80’s is probably the answer.

I thought about that, but why at 60 years, and plus, that doesn’t seem, well, "British."  I though maybe it freaked out the French, those English boats full of rowdy Br.E.F.  retirees and all…<G. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Don Thompson Zoomie(BushBug) ACA#3460 TLCB#335 Any Time, Any Place

Response:

Yeah, I heard that the Brits had their underwear in a bunch because the movie U-571 rewrote history, substituting an American crew for the British crew that actually captured the Enigma machine.

Yeah the story was fictional, but at the end they gave credit to the supposedly actual crews that recovered Enigmas, or Enigma code information.  I just caught a glimpse of this as I was leaving – anyone know if any of *those* were British? * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

If you check your history the British got thier first Enigma cipher machine from the Polish army. Maybe that’s why the "I saw it in a movie" statement with the little smiley?<g

Yeah, I heard that the Brits had their underwear in a bunch because the movie U-571 rewrote history, substituting an American crew for the British crew that actually captured the Enigma machine. I guess that is pretty outrageous from their point of view, kind of like if an English movie showed the British Army planting the Union Jack on Iwo Jima. It’s a good film, though. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Today, a fleet of ‘Little Ships’, sets sail from Dover across the English Channel. This weekend, for the last time, veterans will gather in Dunkirk to commemorate the evacuation of the British Expeditionary Force from the beaches, sixty years ago.

Hats off to them, and a question: why the last time? TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The rescue of the British troops was accomplished, but at great loss, by a motley fleet of craft which included small civilian vessels. Many were no bigger than pleasure launches and crewed by old men and boys. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

Yeah, I heard that the Brits had their underwear in a bunch because the movie U-571 rewrote history, substituting an American crew for the British crew that actually captured the Enigma machine. I guess that is pretty outrageous from their point of view, kind of like if an English movie showed the British Army planting the Union Jack on Iwo Jima.

Yep.   On top of that, there’s apparently another revisionist war history movie in the works with Americans masterminding an escape from a notorious high-security POW prison (the name escapes me at the moment).   Trouble is, there weren’t even any Americans there at the time. Joe F.

Response:

Today, a fleet of ‘Little Ships’, sets sail from Dover across the English Channel. This weekend, for the last time, veterans will gather in Dunkirk to commemorate the evacuation of the British Expeditionary Force from the beaches, sixty years ago.

My dad and I were planning a trip to Europe next year to view WWII sites and sights, it’s too bad we’ll miss that – it’s something I’d like to see. Regards, Jeff

Response:

It’s a darn good thing for you Brits that an American submarine crew captured the Enigma cipher machine from a German U-boat. I saw it in a movie. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

If you check your history the British got thier first Enigma cipher machine from the Polish army.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s a darn good thing for you Brits that an American submarine crew captured the Enigma cipher machine from a German U-boat. I saw it in a movie. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

If you check your history the British got thier first Enigma cipher machine from the Polish army.

The Polish language is enough of an enigma to me.   My in-laws may as well be speaking in secret code. Joe F. (Foregoing the obvious humor opportunities)

Response:

If you check your history the British got thier first Enigma cipher machine from the Polish army.

Maybe that’s why the "I saw it in a movie" statement with the little smiley?<g — Charlie…

Response:

Today, a fleet of ‘Little Ships’, sets sail from Dover across the English Channel. This weekend, for the last time, veterans will gather in Dunkirk to commemorate the evacuation of the British Expeditionary Force from the beaches, sixty years ago. The rescue of the British troops was accomplished, but at great loss, by a motley fleet of craft which included small civilian vessels. Many were no bigger than pleasure launches and crewed by old men and boys. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

Today, a fleet of ‘Little Ships’, sets sail from Dover across the English Channel. This weekend, for the last time, veterans will gather in Dunkirk to commemorate the evacuation of the British Expeditionary Force from the beaches, sixty years ago.

        the dogged courage of the peoples of the united kingdom as displayed during the second world war has always been one of the most inspirational collective acts in world history.         here’s to all of you, over there. wayno

Response:

Question:

Tenterden Trout Waters is hosting the Troutmaster 2000 fly fishing competition on Wednesday 10th May.

This is OBVIOUSLY incorrect, as ALL known "Troutmasters" will be down in North Carolina on the 10th… /daytripper (Thought you could fool us, eh?)

Response:

This is OBVIOUSLY incorrect, as ALL known "Troutmasters" will be down in North Carolina on the 10th… /daytripper (Thought you could fool us, eh?)

EXXXCCCCUUUUSE ME!  Some of us have been left behind. Sorry for the rude interrruption by that Trip person, now what were you saying, rodh1 old boy?  Now that all of the scallywags, scoundrels, reprobates, and other assorted riff-raff have transported themselves to NC, the rest of us can conduct a refined, elegant, tasteful, and expert Troutmasters competition. Hey Trip, TTHHUUFFT! 3pm looks good on ya,  I hear Louie’s planning to load up on some of that famous chilli for lunch.  Enjoy the Audi ambiance. Peter

Response:

This is OBVIOUSLY incorrect, as ALL known "Troutmasters" will be down in North Carolina on the 10th… /daytripper (Thought you could fool us, eh?) EXXXCCCCUUUUSE ME!  Some of us have been left behind.

Whoops! OK – all but ONE Troutmaster then ;^) Sorry for the rude interrruption by that Trip person, now what were you saying, rodh1 old boy?  Now that all of the scallywags, scoundrels, reprobates, and other assorted riff-raff have transported themselves to NC, the rest of us can conduct a refined, elegant, tasteful, and expert Troutmasters competition. Hey Trip, TTHHUUFFT! 3pm looks good on ya,  I hear Louie’s planning to load up on some of that famous chilli for lunch.  Enjoy the Audi ambiance.

NO! GOD NOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooo! I’m packing ear plugs ‘cuz of his taste in music. Better bring some clothes pins, too, I reckon… /daytripper (Dooooooooomed! ;^)

Response:

Anyone interested in the original Troutmaster 99 video featuring the music of Esquivel, King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Garth Brooks, Patrick O’hearn, Jean Luc Ponty, Rush and many more including yours truly should drop our friend tbone a line for a review or send an e-mail for ordering information.  This is not SPAM. I promise. JE * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping.  Smart is Beautiful

Response:

Tenterden Trout Waters is hosting the Troutmaster 2000 fly fishing competition on Wednesday 10th May.

Rodh1, Just read this Perhaps a decent "Back" cast will reach the fish. — Bill http://www.graigroad.demon.co.uk

Response:

Tenterden Trout Waters is hosting the Troutmaster 2000 fly fishing competition on Wednesday 10th May. Check the web site for details, or contact Barry Evans with your questions. (01580) 763201 http://www.trout-waters.co.uk Check site for latest fishing reports, online catch book, local interest and even recipes! Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

A couple of years ago I got caught up on FF list and attended a gathering in the Lake Placid area with a friend that lives in the area. We met a good  bunch of folk that liked to party, smoke cigars, drink single malt and wear funny hats and my recently widowed buddy looked like scoring.  On leaving on the Sunday I said to my friend, "what did you think", and he replied, "very wierd, non of ‘em can cast worth a shit" I guess it is different now because it is just not the computery types that haunt the list, but is it?   The list has really changed not only in members but in content. I can remember getting shit for starting a thread that was only marginal flyfishing . Keep it up boys, it may not be flyfishing but it is entertaining and educating. Terry Ps what is the average lifespan for a patriarch on the list?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A couple of years ago I got caught up on FF list and attended a gathering in the Lake Placid area with a friend that lives in the area. We met a good  bunch of folk that liked to party, smoke cigars, drink single malt and wear funny hats and my recently widowed buddy looked like scoring.  On leaving on the Sunday I said to my friend, "what did you think", and he replied, "very wierd, non of ‘em can cast worth a shit" I guess it is different now because it is just not the computery types that haunt the list, but is it? The list has really changed not only in members but in content. I can remember getting shit for starting a thread that was only marginal flyfishing . Keep it up boys, it may not be flyfishing but it is entertaining and educating. Terry Ps what is the average lifespan for a patriarch on the list?

Terry, now that you mention it, that’s how our first NC clave was I’ll never fergit IJ in that raffle hat that Jeff donated. What a sight Course, some of us can cast, aspersions that is. http://users.boone.net/wgw/clave.html everyone’s invited! Walt — Ezflyfish.com:  http://www.ezflyfish.com http://auctions.yahoo.com/booth/ezflyfish_com Used, Rare, & Out-of-Print Books: http://www.bibliofind.com/cgi-bin/texis.exe/s/search/dhome.html?id=33…

Response:

terry, your post is more than a bit gehrke-esque…   …guess we all have different measures or standards for determining the worth or nature of a fisherman.  whether someone can "cast worth a shit" isn’t among any of my criteria for making a judgment (maybe cause i can’t cast worth a shit). i like what mcguane said:         "Uncle Ben, was my father a good fisherman?"         "No, Tommy, he was not.  But no one loved it more." I prefer the company of fishermen who "love it", and could give a rip whether they can cast or even catch fish. I like fishing with them, and, if they like fishing with someone who "loves it", I think they’ll like fishing with me. jeff   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A couple of years ago I got caught up on FF list and attended a gathering in the Lake Placid area with a friend that lives in the area. We met a good  bunch of folk that liked to party, smoke cigars, drink single malt and wear funny hats and my recently widowed buddy looked like scoring.  On leaving on the Sunday I said to my friend, "what did you think", and he replied, "very wierd, non of ‘em can cast worth a shit" I guess it is different now because it is just not the computery types that haunt the list, but is it? The list has really changed not only in members but in content. I can remember getting shit for starting a thread that was only marginal flyfishing . Keep it up boys, it may not be flyfishing but it is entertaining and educating. Terry Ps what is the average lifespan for a patriarch on the list?

Response:

Terry, At the Spring ‘99 clave and the Fall Ball clave (Oct ‘99) I had the opportunity to observe, and fish with, a cross-section of roff participants and I can state that there are quite a number that can, indeed cast.  Several can also catch fish.  As for the consumption of single malt, cigars, etc, that has been raised to an art form. Evolving, I might add. During the in-between and subsequent periods, I have continued to sully my reputation by associating with some members of the aforementioned group: the downward spiral notwithstanding. The Darwinian progression of this group will eventually and undoubtedly, exceed any one individual’s ability to describe or define it.  In the meantime, I will just wear my funny hat(s) and try to avoid anyone watching me cast.. about that…. And, you’re right, it’s not just "just not the computery types", there’re engineers here now….. Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -. A couple of years ago I got caught up on FF list and attended a gathering in the Lake Placid area with a friend that lives in the area. We met a good  bunch of folk that liked to party, smoke cigars, drink single malt and wear funny hats and my recently widowed buddy looked like scoring.  On leaving on the Sunday I said to my friend, "what did you think", and he replied, "very wierd, non of ‘em can cast worth a shit" I guess it is different now because it is just not the computery types that haunt the list, but is it? The list has really changed not only in members but in content. I can remember getting shit for starting a thread that was only marginal flyfishing . Keep it up boys, it may not be flyfishing but it is entertaining and educating. Terry Ps what is the average lifespan for a patriarch on the list?

Response:

Question:

Well, Willi…..

This ROFF rant was well worth the price of admission if only to hear T-Bones lounge lizard act. — Ken Fortenberry- kicks shit out of little old lady litterers Illini 1 – Tar Heels 0

Response:

Nope… didn’t rant or rave or attack anyone personally, just attacked the bunch of "cyberbullies" that think everyone else wants to listen to their shit! Besides, I gave everyone a technique as to how they can avoid it…so, no harm- no foul- case in point….I deleted Fornicationberry’s response unread =) Larry #:)#

Response:

I’m sure he’s distressed.<

Actually, I bet he’s pleased that someone actually relates the concept of fornication with his name.  <g

Response:

It is true that I have never seen him engaged in sexual congress, but

he always seemed less obsessed with the concept than some of the others around at the time<g.< Still water runs deep.  <g

Response:

Geeeeze.   I go fishing for a few days, come home and Fortenberry has his own thread and there is a thread about "off topic posts". Didn’t we go down these roads before?  And before that too? What’s left — another C&R/C&K thread, or maybe one about the effin’ Indians stealing from us white folk!  I betcha some dumb sumbitch is gonna ask what the best floatant is! Darwinnian my ass!  Dalwhinnie, maybe.  <g Louie (who is packin’ goin’ fishin’) Dave LaCourse

Response:

Larry,    The filter is a great tool.  There is only one person on this group who I have filtered out all of his posts, but there are many threads where people start in saying things that should be taken to e-mail.  When I see there will be nothing more of value on a thread I filter it.. Ernie Harrison See Ernie’s Fly-Fishing Stuff:   http://home.pacbell.net/ernie2 Well, Willi….. <snip Personally, I think anytime someone wants to rant-n-rave, it should be taken to private quarters and left out of the public arena, but the vast majority of these chest thumping testosterone laden hairy palmed individuals think that it’s quite important to make a public display of their idiocy and then look for others to come to their aid, grunting "UnNNNHHH- Me TOO….

<snip Larry #:)# – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Larry While not agreeing completely with your characterization, I will at least own a part of it and back off on some of these threads which frankly get my dander up. Of late there have been too many in that set. To the extent that Ive not seen the humor in a selective charactiture of the US, and my reaction is seen as hatred, I apologize to Christian, Mike and Herman. I will note that the spirit of the Revolutionary Army singing Yankee Doodle Dandy at Yorktown was reportedly very high and even our Polish, German, Irish and French officers joined in. Humor gentleman, humor. As to the Native American thread, which relates directly to the laws and history of the US, I am honestly appalled at the degree of ignorance expressed on ROFF for which I find no excuse in a group of my countryman with such nominally high educational levels. Racial considerations have been an element in our history from the start. Im no saint in this regard. What I find particularly chilling is the "reasonableness" of expression of this ignorance by nominally good men. I also note that the Southerners among us and some of those from the older parts of the US seem in general a bit more perceptive of where such ignorance leads. So maybe the lessons of our history are not lost. In any case Im taking a time out from the more controversial threads, and going to stick to FFing for a bit. Hope that helps. Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nope… didn’t rant or rave or attack anyone personally, just attacked the bunch of "cyberbullies" that think everyone else wants to listen to their shit! Besides, I gave everyone a technique as to how they can avoid it…so, no harm- no foul- case in point….I deleted Fornicationberry’s response unread =) Larry #:)#

Response:

Nope… didn’t rant or rave or attack anyone personally, … ….I deleted Fornicationberry’s response unread =)

Well, I’ll take at face value your assertion that you didn’t attack anyone personally and conclude from your last line that you were just flexing your intellectual muscle. That’s so cute, and such a BIG word too, I sure am proud of you sweetheart. You keep working real hard and one of these days you’ll get out of fifth grade and be able to play with the big boys too. — Ken Fortenberry Illini 2 – Tar Heels 0

Response:

As to the Native American thread, which relates directly to the laws and history of the US, I am honestly appalled at the degree of ignorance expressed on ROFF for which I find no excuse in a group of my countryman with such nominally high educational levels. Racial considerations have been an element in our history from the start. Im no saint in this regard. What I find particularly chilling is the "reasonableness" of expression of this ignorance by nominally good men.

Well said. I too grow weary. I said in another thread that there were two almost equally distasteful options, ignore racist posts or set to with the racists. As it turns out most of the racists are good guys that just don’t know any better. I’ve drawn my line in the sand. Everyone here should know by now where I stand. This brouhaha has tipped the scale of "almost equally distasteful" back to where I think it better to ignore racist posts. I don’t know what posessed me to think it better to tilt at the other side of the scale other than frustration and an inflated sense of my own poor powers of persuasion. I do appreciate all the supportive email and the kind words from "lurkers" and Europeans alike. And a quick note to Harry Mason, we are in 100% agreement. Throwing out the race card IS an attempt to end the discussion. Sure as hell don’t work around here though. Native Americans are NOT the problem, but they sure make convenient scapegoats. — Ken Fortenberry Illini 2 – Tar Heels 0

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As to the Native American thread, which relates directly to the laws and history of the US, I am honestly appalled at the degree of ignorance expressed on ROFF for which I find no excuse in a group of my countryman with such nominally high educational levels. Racial considerations have been an element in our history from the start. Im no saint in this regard. What I find particularly chilling is the "reasonableness" of expression of this ignorance by nominally good men. Well said. I too grow weary. I said in another thread that there were two almost equally distasteful options, ignore racist posts or set to with the racists. As it turns out most of the racists are good guys that just don’t know any better. I’ve drawn my line in the sand. Everyone here should know by now where I stand. This brouhaha has tipped the scale of "almost equally distasteful" back to where I think it better to ignore racist posts. I don’t know what posessed me to think it better to tilt at the other side of the scale other than frustration and an inflated sense of my own poor powers of persuasion. I do appreciate all the supportive email and the kind words from "lurkers" and Europeans alike. And a quick note to Harry Mason, we are in 100% agreement. Throwing out the race card IS an attempt to end the discussion. Sure as hell don’t work around here though. Native Americans are NOT the problem, but they sure make convenient scapegoats. — Ken Fortenberry Illini 2 – Tar Heels 0

Americans ARE the problem and killers of the extraordinary amount of America’s Wildlife they are plundering. What part of this is racist and what part of this problem don’t you understand Ken? This IS A REALITY CHECK. You understand – Check this line. You Don’t Understand – Check this line. — Mr. G.   http://www.gink.com/html  Fly Fisherman’s Chat Site   "Flyfisherman’s Camp Fires Burning" http://www.gink.com http://www.rodbuilding.com http://www.xink.com

Question:

Hi All, A friend has asked me to build what is know as an AuSable river boat.  It is a flat bottom skiff type boat commonly used for fly fishing on the AuSable river here in Michigan.  It may be similar to an adirondack guide boat. If anyone can point me to resources that may help me sort this out such as websites, pics etc.  I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks, Craig "Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government"

Response:

OK Craig – you asked for it!!! are as goodat helping out as the people here (I know, some days I’m incredulous too ). Wait a minute! about anything boat related, like maybe skiff AND plans (or something). There are a gazillion books of plans — maybe not the AuSable river boat, but certainly something very much like it, and probably using modern construction techniques and materials.   For starters:  Build the New Instant Boats — Dynamite Payson                  American Small Sailing Craft — Howard Chapelle                  Forty Wooden Boats (also 30 and 50 wooden boats)                          by WoodenBoat Magazine http://www.woodenboat.com                  ANTYHING by WoodenBoat                  ANYTHING by Phil Bolger (Boats with an Open Mind is fun reading) Check out http://www.amazon.com for more books. No doubt someone else will jump in with really good advice, and I’ll bow to his/her superior knowledge. BTW – remember that boat building  (and all woodworking) is supposed to be fun.  For boats in particular, you can generally buy a ready-made boat cheaper than you can build one, so, if you do not WANT to build, and I mean really want to build, tell your friend to find something used and buy it. Have fun, and good luck with your search Rob (building a Sinepuxent skiff from Smithsonian plans) Weaver – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, A friend has asked me to build what is know as an AuSable river boat.  It is a flat bottom skiff type boat commonly used for fly fishing on the AuSable river here in Michigan.  It may be similar to an adirondack guide boat. If anyone can point me to resources that may help me sort this out such as websites, pics etc.  I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks, Craig "Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government"

Response:

Question:

In my minds eye, I saw incredible stress occuring on the primary thong knot, upper rear, but was relieved to see a perfectly executed bimini twist by a man who knows his knots. There is a God.

Some glorious power must deliver us from this place.

Response:

In my minds eye, I saw incredible stress occuring on the primary thong knot, upper rear, but was relieved to see a perfectly executed bimini twist by a man who knows his knots. There is a God. Some glorious power must deliver us from this place.

Why? Mike

Response:

I currently subscribe to a couple of different fishing mag’s but would like to know what some of the newsgroup members subscribe to and which ones are the best.

I wish I could afford Gray’s.  Seems like s gud’n…. TimW

Response:

I currently subscribe to a couple of different fishing mag’s but would like to know what some of the newsgroup members subscribe to and which ones are the best.

I used to subscribe to a few different ones as a kid, but the only one that remains is Fly Rod & Reel. My brother very thoughtfully renews my subscription each year as a gift, kind of a tradition. If he didn’t I would have dropped FR&R by now as well. All fly fishing rags are geared to the same purpose: presenting readers with a glossy, unattainable image of the "Modern Angler" and delivering their gullible brains to advertisers who hawk mass-produced, plastic flyrods at $600 a pop. Have a nice day Spinolio

Response:

Craig I like Grays and Fly Fishing In Saltwater Jay

Response:

My favourite fishing mag is "Fish & Game New Zealand" P.O.Box 1746 Auckland New Zealand ph.  64-9-579-3000 fax. 64-9-579-3993 ISSN 1172-434X It costs $6.95 NZD = about $4.20 USD.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I would agree with some of what Jason says, though not all of it. A couple of the titles, Fly Rod & Reel and Fly Fisherman, do seem to me too much taken up in destination-type articles (FR&R more so). I still subscribe to Fly Fisherman though…guess I’m a magazine junkie (I work in publishing). However, I find American Angler in general to have less of the destination stuff and more of the fishing stuff. Most recent issue arrived yesterday, featuring articles on midge fishing (complete with patterns and recipes), damsel flies, nymphing techniques, buying bamboo rods, and small stream fishing. Plus, I love C. Boyd Pfeiffers tips column. I’ve now built my own bobbin rest/cradle, and am planning a rod wrapping stand and gallows-type tool based on some of his suggestions. The entymology column is also interesting. I look forward to my American Angler every month (although they spend too much time on eastern fisheries–I’m in California. I also subscribe to Western Fly Fishing and Western Fly Tying (as some one in publishing, let me take a minute to say hey Amato! get an art director with a sense of design and restraint), and Fly Tyer. In particular, I find the fly tying publications, as Jason said, full of useful info. And like I said, I’m a magazine junkie. All that having been said, much of this info is also available to you on the internet now…but you can’t take it in the john with you. Roger

Personally, I dropped American Angler, as they have become another Trout mag. There Saltwater flyfishing seems pretty good. Don’t bother with Fly Fishing In Saltwater, unless you have lots of bucks to travel. Charlie

Response:

I currently subscribe to a couple of different fishing mag’s but would like to know what some of the newsgroup members subscribe to and which ones are the best.

   I subscribe to all the fishing mags (including foreign ones). It’s my job to be up on what’s new and even the ads get my attention. One tidbit pays for the issue (and quite frankly I do get something of value out almost all the magazines).    If I were allowed only one rag it would be IN-FISHERMAN (gasp!). It is the only magazine that consistantly has in-depth articles about fish and fisheries rather than peripheral stuff like thermometer reviews or streamside fashions.     After the fifteenth incarnation of "All you ever wanted to know about strike indicators", you really have to wonder how long the average reader has been subscribing to ANY of the flyishing magazines.    -Ralph

Response:

With all of this magazine talk, I’ve got to wonder when a FF mag will finally come out with a February Swimsuit issue. Who would grace the cover – Lefty Kreh in thog briefs casting to bonefish??

Response:

Lefty Kreh in thog briefs casting to bonefish??

Thank you, Sean, for putting that wonderous image into our heads. Steve

Response:

[snip] :     After the fifteenth incarnation of "All you ever wanted to know about : strike indicators", you really have to wonder how long the average reader : has been subscribing to ANY of the flyishing magazines. Or how much there really is to know about our beloved hobby! — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

: Lefty Kreh in thog briefs casting to bonefish?? : Thank you, Sean, for putting that wonderous image into our heads. No good becomes the man who uses the words thong and Lefty in the same sentence.   (Unless it is done in a anatomical context, as in "Men wearing thongs are predisposed to hang lefty.") — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/

Response:

I currently subscribe to a couple of different fishing mag’s but would like to know what some of the newsgroup members subscribe to and which ones are the best. Craig,    After subscribing to countless magazines ( Flyfishing, fishing, hunting, etc.) over many years I have come to the conclusion that the money is better spent on new  equipment, better tying vice, gas, or other…. Most magazines recycle , perhaps modify somewhat … but still generally write about the same stuff…  It becomes quite boring and a waste of money IMHO… Some are better than others.

Magazines in any area, be it fishing or fly tying or computers or baby rearing or what-have-you, recycle material because over time their readership changes and they have proportionally more readers who are new to the field than they do "old timers".  This can be an annoyance to the old hands who find themselves reading the same type of material over and over again, but it’s great for authors who can make a fine living recycling old material.  Hmmm…maybe it’s time to consider a career change?  :-) — Bob Jarvis Mail addresses hacked to foil automailers!

Response:

: Lefty Kreh in thog briefs casting to bonefish?? : Thank you, Sean, for putting that wonderous image into our heads. No good becomes the man who uses the words thong and Lefty in the same sentence. (Unless it is done in a anatomical context, as in "Men wearing thongs are predisposed to hang lefty.")

Great. Just great. Now, not only do we have Lefty in a thong but we know which way he’s hanging! Bring me a bucket… I’m gonna ROFF! Spinolio

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Lefty Kreh in thog briefs casting to bonefish?? : Thank you, Sean, for putting that wonderous image into our heads. No good becomes the man who uses the words thong and Lefty in the same sentence. (Unless it is done in a anatomical context, as in "Men wearing thongs are predisposed to hang lefty.") Great. Just great. Now, not only do we have Lefty in a thong but we know which way he’s hanging! Bring me a bucket… I’m gonna ROFF!

In my minds eye, I saw incredible stress occuring on the primary thong knot, upper rear, but was relieved to see a perfectly executed bimini twist by a man who knows his knots. There is a God. TimW

Response:

I currently subscribe to a couple of different fishing mag’s but would like to know what some of the newsgroup members subscribe to and which ones are the best. Craig T

Dear Craig; I have found most flyfishing mags. superfluous.  They are O.K. for getting vacationing FFermen to know about destinations (and, in the local’s point of view, ruining them, with some legitimacy), and some techniques, (usually casting), but that is about it. I am not independently wealthy, so I don’t go jetting around the continent to fantastic, exotic waters.  So I find it of little utility for me.   After I learned enough about locations, hatches, tying, casting and the fish in general and had knowlegeable people to talk to, the magazines were, as I said, became superfluous. The applicability was really nil. Now, fly tying mags, like "Fly Tyer" are much different. I can apply techniques seen there to flies I use right here.  Of most utility are the local sporting publications.  I fish in Pennsylvania, so knowing what’s going on here is important to me.  Also, these publications keep track of local and state legislation, special regs. areas, local pollution, stream recover and projects, recent reports on new waters for me to fish, etc.  I don’t give a flyin’ fig about that damnable DePuy’s spring creek.  So what.  It is not a critical national or for me, local issue.  There is time and effort better spent elsewhere. JB

Response:

: for me to fish, etc.  I don’t give a flyin’ fig about that damnable : DePuy’s spring creek.  So what.  It is not a critical national or for : me, local issue.  There is time and effort better spent elsewhere. Jason, I’d like you to reconsider.  There are good trout streams and there are trout streams without trout.  Consider all these resources, resources of our natural world.  We need to work together to protect the remaining good resources and work together to reclaim the wasted resources.  If we don’t work together, they will all be gone.  It might take years and years, but they will all go away.  The first step (IMO) in working together is education and awareness.  It’s good to know what makes a resource good, and how it stacks up with local conditions with which we might be more familiar.  It’s important to know what is excellent, what is good and what is weak, because it helps us draw distinctions and priorities.  I argue it’s improtant to know other countries, because it helps imagine what it was like here 100 years ago (of course, Idaho is still like it was 100 years ago), and what it can be again. I encourage you and others to try to maintain at least a minimal interest in the rest of the world.  We are all local fisherfolk. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

I would agree with some of what Jason says, though not all of it. A couple of the titles, Fly Rod & Reel and Fly Fisherman, do seem to me too much taken up in destination-type articles (FR&R more so). I still subscribe to Fly Fisherman though…guess I’m a magazine junkie (I work in publishing). However, I find American Angler in general to have less of the destination stuff and more of the fishing stuff. Most recent issue arrived yesterday, featuring articles on midge fishing (complete with patterns and recipes), damsel flies, nymphing techniques, buying bamboo rods, and small stream fishing. Plus, I love C. Boyd Pfeiffers tips column. I’ve now built my own bobbin rest/cradle, and am planning a rod wrapping stand and gallows-type tool based on some of his suggestions. The entymology column is also interesting. I look forward to my American Angler every month (although they spend too much time on eastern fisheries–I’m in California. I also subscribe to Western Fly Fishing and Western Fly Tying (as some one in publishing, let me take a minute to say hey Amato! get an art director with a sense of design and restraint), and Fly Tyer. In particular, I find the fly tying publications, as Jason said, full of useful info. And like I said, I’m a magazine junkie. All that having been said, much of this info is also available to you on the internet now…but you can’t take it in the john with you. Roger

Response:

Amen to all that before. Much superflous caca in these magazines. Of them, American Angler is by far the best. Fly Rod & Reel isn’t very well written but the fiction issue is well worth buying. They also ran an interesting piece an issue or two ago about how bamboo rods are built. Of course, American Angler did that too…

Response:

Wonderful advise, Rick.  Concern for local issues is only an important starting point.

Response:

I currently subscribe to a couple of different fishing mag’s but would like to know what some of the newsgroup members subscribe to and which ones are the best. Craig T

Craig,    After subscribing to countless magazines ( Flyfishing, fishing, hunting, etc.) over many years I have come to the conclusion that the money is better spent on new  equipment, better tying vice, gas, or other…. Most magazines recycle , perhaps modify somewhat … but still generally write about the same stuff…  It becomes quite boring and a waste of money IMHO… Some are better than others. Just some thoughts !                                                                                              Jody

Response:

I currently subscribe to a couple of different fishing mag’s but would like to know what some of the newsgroup members subscribe to and which ones are the best. Craig T

A couple of my favs are Fly Fisherman and Flyfishing.  I also like Salmon, Trout, Steelheader. -Burton — L. Burton Hawley 2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, OR

Response:

I currently subscribe to a couple of different fishing mag’s but would like to know what some of the newsgroup members subscribe to and which ones are the best. Craig T

Response:

I don’t subscribe to it, but I just found a magazine called "Wild Steelhead & Salmon" that looks pretty good if you’re into those fish.   I can’t say how consistent it is because I’ve only seen this one issue, and it is a little expensive, but it’s out there if you’re curious.

Response:

I currently subscribe to a couple of different fishing mag’s but would like to know what some of the newsgroup members subscribe to and which ones are the best. Craig THi Craig,

I subscribe to American Angler, Fly Rod & Reel, Fly Tying, Fly Tyers, Fly Fish America (the national version of the regional free magazine), and Fly Fisherman. I think American Angler is real good. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

Response:

Question:

: Just started fly fishing this past fall ( mostly Greate Lakes Steelhead ). : This Saturday is the opening day of trout season here in NY. : I was hoping someone could recommend some patterns that may work this : early in the season on hatchery type ‘put and take’ type rainbows : ( we don’t practice the ‘take part’ ). —PCR         For stockers some of the classics flies are the best:  Gold Ribbed Hare’s Ear’s, Adams, Wulff dries, Wooly Worms, and Wooley Buggers.  For the nymphs and the dries, you want to fish big, like size 12 and 14.  You can also use stonefly nymphs or hellagrammites in sizes 6-10.  Stocked fish often just like something they can see.  Glo bugs should work alright on the stockers.

Response:

Early season flies that work great in the Syracuse area are pheasant tail, both bead headed & traditional, picket pin, wooly bugger (various colors), and G.R. Hares ear. P.S. on Sunday, I saw some Quill Gordon duns flirting about on Limestone Creek here in Syracuse. G.R. Hares Ear should work, sizes 16, 18. PH – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just started fly fishing this past fall ( mostly Greate Lakes Steelhead ). This Saturday is the opening day of trout season here in NY. I was hoping someone could recommend some patterns that may work this early in the season on hatchery type ‘put and take’ type rainbows ( we don’t practice the ‘take part’ ). Have been having alot of success using glo-bugs and frammus patterns on 3 – 10 pound Rainbows but aren’t sure what to use on the smaller (10 – 12 inch ) stockers.   Thanks in advance PCR

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just started fly fishing this past fall ( mostly Greate Lakes Steelhead ). This Saturday is the opening day of trout season here in NY. I was hoping someone could recommend some patterns that may work this early in the season on hatchery type ‘put and take’ type rainbows ( we don’t practice the ‘take part’ ). Have been having alot of success using glo-bugs and frammus patterns on 3 – 10 pound Rainbows but aren’t sure what to use on the smaller (10 – 12 inch ) stockers.   Thanks in advance PCR

On the 10 -12 inch stockers , you should use PELLET FLIES!!!!!!                Greg

Response:

Woolly Buggers are killers for the stockers.  Black, Olive and "Grizzly" colors are great.  Purple & Black have worked great, too. And, if you really want to catch a stocker out of a put &take stream, tip your wooly bugger with a berkley power grub (eek, did he say "BAIT"?) Yep.  If you want to catch fish. Jim Elias Blue Grass IA H.Y.M.R.

Response:

Just started fly fishing this past fall ( mostly Greate Lakes Steelhead ). This Saturday is the opening day of trout season here in NY. I was hoping someone could recommend some patterns that may work this early in the season on hatchery type ‘put and take’ type rainbows ( we don’t practice the ‘take part’ ). Have been having alot of success using glo-bugs and frammus patterns on 3 – 10 pound Rainbows but aren’t sure what to use on the smaller (10 – 12 inch ) stockers.   Thanks in advance PCR

Response:

Question:

Can anyone out there suggest a good fly-tying book.  I am looking into trying it out and would like to get started soon. Thanks!

Both of the Jack Dennis books are good for beginners.  They have abundant pictures and stories about each fly.  Although they are written, suposedly, for Western trout, I dont think Eastern trout will care. Good Luck

Response:

Dear JFlotch–      I’ve been tying for quite a while and don’t have it myself, but from what I’ve seen and heard from others I think I’d start with Skip Morris’ book.  I believe the title is something like "Fly Tying Made Simple".      Welcome to the obsession.  Hang onto your wallet.                              Ed Morrison

Response:

I’m a beginner tyer myself and was given a copy of The Fly Tyer’s Primer by Richard Talleur. It is well explained and has good photos and a good selection of patterns. He lives in Harrisburg so most of what is in the book is good for eastern stream, what I fish anyway.

Response:

The best I’ve ever seen in "Fly Tying Made Clear and Simple" by Skip Morris.  Much better than the Dick Stewart book for beginners, although Stewart’s patterns make an excellent resource once the basics are learned.

Response:

I got my start with Dick Talleur’s "Mastering The Art of Fly-tying".  It is now quite dog-eared from it’s extensive use by myself, as well as several others.  I still go back to it on occaision when I find my work getting a little sloppy.  I like the way he starts one off with a few basic procedures and then adds more as he proceeds from fly-to-fly.  I learned more from this book than I did from the "classes" I had attended. Although this was a long time ago, I would still highly reccomend this to any beginner.

Response:

A new book, "The Art of Fly Tying, by Van Vliet, (Cy DeCosse press) was just published as part of the Hunting and Fishing Library. Fantastic pictures, clear step-by-step instructions on every _Fundamental__Operation_ of fly-tying, i.e., quill bodies, hackle collars, wet fly bodies, etc. Lots of good patterns, well-organized, with a good index so you can find what you’re looking for. The new leader (no pun intended) in fly tying books. Highly recommended. -Phil Plumbo

Response:

Can anyone out there suggest a good fly-tying book.  I am looking into trying it out and would like to get started soon. Thanks!

My idea of a good beginners book is one that takes YOU seriously. One that you will retun to for advice for years. One of these is "The Art of Tying the Dry Fly." By  Skip Morris. The clarity of the text and illustrations and the clever techniques that make hard things easy make this book a winner. Tight Lines –Doug Easton

Response:

Skip. has an excellent book for Nymphs also.

Response:

Can anyone out there suggest a good fly-tying book.  I am looking into trying it out and would like to get started soon. Thanks! My idea of a good beginners book is one that takes YOU seriously. One that you will retun to for advice for years. One of these is "The Art of Tying the Dry Fly." By  Skip Morris. The clarity of the text and illustrations and the clever techniques that make hard things easy make this book a winner.

There is a new book out called "The Art of Fly Tying" by John van Vliet that is part of a group of books called the Hunting and Fishing Library. At least half the content of the book is pictures– all of them in color. I think its a great book for the beginner and intermidiate fly tyer and I believe it meets the qualifications above. I also like the two books by Randall Kaufmann, "Tying Dry Flies" and "The Fly Tyers Nymph Manual". Randy Esch

Response:

Try Dick Stewart’s "universal Fly Tying Guide" (Steven Greene Press, 1979) – an excellent guid to about 150 basic patterns of all types, any    d you can probably get it for about $10 or so — 3798 Woodland Drive     (604) 368-9315 Trail, BC

Response:

Can anyone out there suggest a good fly-tying book.  I am looking into trying it out and would like to get started soon. Thanks!

Poul Jorgensen has a very good book out, "Poul Jorgensen’s Book of Fly Tying" I’ve gone back to it time after time.  It has a good, clear layout and is organized by type of fly with associated patterns.  Check it out. John C. Crow

Response:

The best book for a beginning fly-tyer I’ve always thought to be J. Edson Leonard’s FLIES..straightforward, commonsense, clear, well-illustrated, and especially usefu if you don’t have a teacher of any kind. writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Skip. has an excellent book for Nymphs also.

Response:

I’ve been tying flies for something like 20 years now (with large portions of downtime – namely grad school).  When I was getting started there was a book by Kenneth Bay (I think) which was excellent.  This only shows you a half dozen or so patterns, but there is a photograph and an explanation of EVERY step.  If you are just starting and have no idea of how to do anything, I would suggest that you look for this book and work through it.  Then get a list of fly patterns or one of the other books mentioned and work on some different patterns. Good luck, and my condolences – it’s an addicting hobby and you’ll likely never be cured.  Lucky you! Regards, John — Dr. John G. Hardie Indiana University Cyclotron Facility

Response: